NOT AS FAST AS PEOPLE THINK! The ACTUAL Reason the Mazda 787B Was BANNED
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2021
- There is a big myth going round, and has done for some time, that the 787B that won the 1991 24hrs of Le Mans was banned for being 'too fast'. When really, it was always going to be banned due to FIA rules.
So why do people believe the myth? And what led to the rule change? And why did it win Le Mans despite not being that fast? Let's enquire.
Enjoy! And remember to like and subscribe for more!
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I'm annoyed that the clickbait titles generate traffic...
nah youre talking about the 787b. thats why
Human psychology depressing sometimes.
As for the noise thing, the RX-792P ran the exact same engine (R26B) in IMSA and there doesn't seem to be anywhere near the claims of it being that ear-splitting. I dunno. Sounds like more hyperbolic lore to me.
I've clicked pretty much every video you post,
I avoid sensational videos like the plague. If I didn't know your videos are just dry English sarcasm, I would steer away. :-D
No, brother. I was just thrilled that someone finally put it together in a form that is easy for me to share. I've said similar things over the years, but few understand. I adore that racecar and livery, but I only love those cars for what they are, not what I want them to be. Even though I am a Chevy muscle car guy from Texas, I actually keep a small sticker of the 787B on my racing helmet to remind me that you don't have to be the "best" to win.
Firstly I am a huge Mazda fan. I’ve owned an FD RX7 for 15 years and never had an issue with the engine (in case anyone was wondering) but I’m also a huge Motorsport fan and I know the story of the 787B and have a huge great book on Mazda’s history in Motorsport. No the 787B wasn’t the fastest car there by any means and any historic group c fan will tell you that. It ran in a slower class anyway. It’s the equivalent of an LMP2 car winning the race outright (which may happen in 2021 considering how jittery the new HyperCars are). The reason why it’s such a popular winner is Mazda we’re easily the underdogs. All the other teams were huge by comparison and here comes the little Mazda team and beats them. That’s why the car is loved so much (in my opinion) not because people think it’s fast. That general feeling still exists today. The cheers from the crowd when Mazda win in IMSA with the RT-24P shows just how much love and support there is for them. My view is the engine wasn’t banned as such but the regulations just moved on. All of a sudden we went into 3.5 liter atmospheric and even though I love the rotary concept it’s never going to live with that sort of engine. It’s happening again with IMSA and the move to hybrid cars. Mazda have decided that it would just be too costly to go that route and design an all new car so are leaving at the end of the year. Little fact about the Furai. It was an P2 Courage C65 prototype underneath which was already running with the 3 rotor anyway in competition. With the Mazda designed aero over the top. Anyone who follows IMSA will know that’s more or less what DPi is now! The 767, 787B and RX-792 are iconic race cars because they looked amazing and sounded amazing. Overrated? Yes probably, loved by Motorsport fans? Absolutely! Pass me my ear plugs….😄
Absolutely, that rotary engine screaming was incredible. FISA killed group c with the 3,5 litre rule and that was on purpose they wanted it banned.
IMSA followed and the end of 93 after Toyota Eagle dominance.
11 years of golden age.
You own an FD? Have fun replacing the fuel filter.
@@Gearhead221 Definitely has fun driving it though.
@@Gearhead221 lol. Oh yeah it’s a fun old job for sure. Got it down to 30 minutes now as I’ve figured out the best way to remove it without dislocating my fingers. 😂
@@GloomGaiGar Yeah it’s a great piece of kit and good fun. Haven’t done much to it and I’ve left the exterior of the car alone. A nice empty road and the FD makes for a good combination 😊
The Furai burning to a crisp is heartbreaking.
Such a beautiful car
It's actually quite remarkable that no one had a copy of the blueprints for the furai.
It caught fire climbing a hill in Suffolk. It may have been so surprised that it was climbing a hill in Suffolk that it forgot it wasn't supposed to be on fire.
It was during a review for Top Gear magazine, so it might actually have been disappointed it wasn't actually on Top Gear.
Yeah, so sad... if you look at what they did, starting from a Courage C65 chassis, they build a work of art. That car, designed in 2007, still looks more "modern" then half the hypercars on themarket in 2021
@@decb it didn't burn climbing a hill. It burned whilst being driven on the runway at Bentwaters Parks.
I can attest to it being loud, having attended Le Mans 1987-1992. In the stands at around 3am with the 787B and the 9C Merc lapping close to each other one drilled your ears out while the other shook your guts to bits :)
This Car is the Mandela effect on wheels, I absolutely adore it but it really wasn't the Rocket many people think it was/is
ME too
Agree
hell yes
It's like a civic, sounds fast but is actually slow.
And I'm not talking about a properly built civic, I'm talking about the beaters owned by 16yr old who put an exhaust on them and drive at high rpm.
And it's annoying because people are making the case that Rotaries are superior to Pistons by making a case out of the 787B.
No, it wasn't fast, the rotaries were just more reliable than the 3.5 liter engines that were rushed to replace the old engines, the old engines were not only faster but more reliable than the 787B's newer one in 91, and even with 200 kilo weight ballast they were still faster, and laps ahead faster.
I could simply bring up the case that Mazda started using the Judd V10 that replaced the rotary the year after, and how on an even playing field and with little to experience with the platform, Mazda was able to muscle a 4th place finish in the 1992 Le mans, but they'd never listen.
"So, if we play loud, people might think we're good"
Said some depressed Squid
OK, new theory... Maybe if we play so quietly that no one can hear us...
I mean it worked
@@BubbaBearGames Well maybe some of us shouldn’t try to play with BIG MEATY CLAWS!
People trying to "bring back the V10's" be like
@@Logan912 Well, these claws ain't for just attracting mates! LOL
That Peugeot top speed affair pissed off the head of Porsche racing division an awful lot because Porsche previously held the record and it could now never be beaten on track again thanks to the chicanes. That man then decided he would beat that 407kph record with a roadcar that would make 1000hp. Car was the Bugatti Veyron and the man was Ferdinand Piech, you can thank him for the Audi Quattro's rally success too.
What a petty thing to get miffed about. The Peugeot was a trashcan everywhere else other than the Mulsanne straight and never was going to win the race.
@@DapperHesher it was a very German over-engineered over-reaction
"Ze French hav beaten us on ze racen track? Fine, ve must defeat zem wit ein road car!"
@@DapperHesher winning in a race is fairly petty too, sports in general is all about pettiness (my guy can do better than your guy)
@@GloomGaiGar Sounds pretty sexist.
For me, the fixation on it having to be the fastest car imaginable kinda misses the point of endurance racing. To this day, the first and foremost part of the competition is just finishing the damn race.
100%. To quote Sir Jack Brabham and many other racers, 'to finish first you must first finish'. Sir Jack (and others I'm sure) said he always tried to win by the closest margin possible. Especially in those days when the cars were very unreliable you had to push them as gently as possible to look after the car!
Spot on
But then again it's racing, Reliability takes you all around the 24 hours, pace takes you as far ahead as possible away from your competition during the 24 hours.
The Mazda won not because it had better pace nor reliability, it's because everyone was made slow and unreliable due to the penalties put in place against the top teams inflating the Mazda's pace and reliability. Once the 3.5L engines were reliable enough, they would've smoked the 787B out of the water, the Fastest Racing Lap of Lemans 1992 was from the Toyota 92 CV which was 10 seconds ahead of the Mazda 787B while being as reliable as a higher hp figure, and the Mazda MXR-01 was 8 seconds faster than the 787 with a heavily underpowered Judd V10 engine.
Half
@@youngrody2386 but at the end of the day who gives of shit, the Mazda was still the worst car that competed in those two years.... Won one race out of 21 races and was like 4th 5th in championship standings for two years..... Terrible racecar like the martini lancia Lc1......
Reminds me of the myth that the GT-R Skylines and Ford Sierras were banned from Bathurst and ATCC. Truth being the Group A was dead everywhere else ,except Australia and the solution downunder, was the V8 formula that became V8 Supercars. There's something you could look into, Aidan!
Its hardly ever mentioned, but Mazdaspeed did run an RX7 in the 1994 24 hours and it did do quite well in it's class. I was there and it pounded around making quite a racket and a fair bit of dark smoke by the end but it was still holding up well. The official DVD of the 1994 race makes almost no mention of the car at all.
Hey facts the Mazda RX-7 has the must wins as a name plate in automotive history
@@Eelgnotsa nooooo! that belongs to the 911..... Most race successful, dominative, and banned nameplate in motorsports, it has won almost everything........ Most race successful model of car is the e30 generation M3........
People are blinded by gran turismo nostalgia/other nostalgia probably
And probably rotary nostalgia
And the popularity of JDM fuels this as well.
yeah
I have this mazda on both PC2 and Real Racing 3, the sound... omg, it's eargasmic
+1
The Le Man's win was a lucky one. The Mercedes dynamo support cracked rising water temperature like a blast and Alan Ferte didn't notice that in time and carried one another lap. When he finally pitted the V8 was ruined. Schlesser just couldn't believe it.
I remember Herbert stated about the Mazda incredible reliability. Much more than true speed. But indeed they made history that day.
Well that’s the point of endurance racing, you need reliability above all else, a fast car is no good if it only goes 12 hours.
But that car had problems everywhere else for two years. There's a good number of races where it never finished.....
@@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo I mention Le Mans and that's all.
@@McPlayer8t Don't worry the Saubers and Jags shat on the 787b throughout the entire season anyway.
@@McPlayer8t Yes, but a lot of that could be attributed to the added ballast, which the 787B found a loophole to get out of.
Good video (and disclaimer I am a die hard rotary nut with 5 cars currently) but race N/A rotary engines can be very reliable. The RX7 has the most wins in IMSA history, class wins in Daytona, Bathurst and more. It's when you slap turbos on them that the reliability goes out the window. Fair call on the horrible fuel economy though.
There's a technical paper by Kenichi Yamamoto on the r26b rotary engine with some interesting insights into it's design and development.
Inspecting the engine after Le Mans they discovered much less wear than they expected, it could have theoretically covered the entire race distance again and still been within tolerance.
And don't forget Mazda can give 787B 10.5krpm and makes 930hp but because that is just too much they tone it down to just 700
Do you have 5 right feet as well?
People just don´t read Wikipedia, do they?
Group C was a goner by then and that last year was like a last Hurrah of insane spending just to see who could win before the cards were re-shuffled again (and those millions went to waste)...just like Honda threw everything they had in the 2021 engine for Red Bull before saying Sayonara
No but some of the writers at speedhunters have reworded wiki articles for their own and then used wiki as a source. which have lead to misleading information and plaigerism...... I thought journos went to college.......
@@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo journos are the laziest bunch sometimes...specially those that are not in the "field"...they would rather cite a wiki than read a book...or use common sense ^^
@Lone Drifter aye but less populated wikies have less crowd curation...saying the Mazda was banned for being loud would never stay on a bigger site..or the holy cow for internet historians that is Wikipedia ^^
From what I've seen, in Gran Turismo *4* the 787B isn't one of the fastest cars, but it's probably the easiest Group C car to drive, and one of the high end cars with the best tire wear. When I use it myself, I get very even tire wear, even though I play on a controller. And when the AI uses it for events, the 787B will usually be the last car to pit, if it even pits at all.
The fastest cars, from my experience, are the Toyota MINOLTA 88C-V, and the Nissan R92CP. From what I remember the R92CP has slightly more horsepower, the 88C-V has ~50kg less weight. Maybe the Sauber C9 fits in there as well, not sure.
Of course that might've changed in Gran Turismo Sport, but I'm assuming the R92CP is still one of the best cars in the game.
In GT5 it's the same thing, the Nissan and the Toyota are two of the fastest cars in the game.
The R92 is still the fastest Gr.C car in GTSport
The 787B was the fastest in GT3, simply because it was the only Gr.C in that game, the other cars are either GT1 or GTS, like the R390 and the Viper. Also, i find it funny that PD made the 787B a turbocharged car when it wasnt
On Gran Turismo 3, it is the ONLY Group C car. That's why these people think it is so fast.
The 2005 Pescarolo was the way to go in Gran Turismo 6. Loved that car.
People love the Rotary.....
Love the jersey Aidan, the Jays are finally back home after being COVID exiles!
You're good at dispelling those myths, Aiden.
I just made an MX-5 with the Renown Charge livery recently and researched why the 787b stopped racing. It's crazy how many people will just ask a question on a forum rather than looking somewhere more reputable.
A 80’s Lancia 24hr enduro car. I’d like that, even if it sucked. You know it’s going to be nuts
Mazda 787B
Races: 21
Wins: 1
Poles: 0
Fastest Laps: 0
Not the stats of a very good car, it was a mix of reliability and some luck that won it a 24 hours of Le Mans. The best part of the 787B is how it sounds, there really aren't a whole lot of other redeeming qualities about it.
Well it is an endurance race. They won by default because the opposing cars either retire or getting into pitstop because of mechanical problem.
@@timberhead2069 Mechanical problems due to carrying 200kg of extra weight, inspite that though the 787B was getting lapped until the cars (that were used last year too) finally gave in.
The infuriating part is that people will recognize this thing as winning Lemans because it was fast, not because it was ridiculously lucky.
U mad bruhhhhh?what happened to v8 v10 V12 engine at the final lap then.
@@unknownuser5172 They broke down since they were carrying 200 kgs more than they were designed to, the previous few years the Mazda was dead last at every race excluding DNFs. lol.
It won because it was 170kg lighter than all the other cars, thats a massive advantage over 362 laps!!
Mazda are reportedly interested in trying to use the rotary in a hybrid system, so I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to develop a hybrid rotary powertrain for an LMH car if LMH as a class actually properly takes off after 2023...
You’re not gonna do it,they are very small company..I’ve had 4 Mazdas and today I think Mazda is building some of the best cars out of Japan and if people test drive them they will see it but they just run right over to toyota automatically because of reputation
Well, the car is legendary, but not for the reason most people think (not the speed). It was a rotary car and it was loud af, SERIOUSLY loud. It definitely wasn't the fastest though, it only won at Le Mans because every other competitor's cars crapped up and Mazda were the only ones left standing. The 787B is mostly just Mandela effect.
Its clearly Le Mans are worse and boring endurance competition
Nice video on the facts of the race, good to see someone strip down the myth of its banning and the peculararity of the rules for that year's race. The only thing I can say isn't quite the 'unicorn' you mentioned is that in a racing environment the rotary can actualy be quite a reliable engine. In fact Alan Moffat, who successfully ran RX7s in Australian touring cars in the 80s mentioned at the time it was one of the most reliable racing cars he had raced up until that point. Other drivers who raced the RX7 back then said pretty much the same thing. It just isn't that good in a road car. It is the 'cool-warm-cool' cycles of regular road driving that kills them more than most when combined with the 'ordinary' oil injection system that most racers disconnect and instead mix the oil in the fuel like a 2-stroke. And yes, contrary to popular belief its fuel economy was considerably better than the Mercs and Jags that they could run the #55 car flat out for the entire 24 hours. Don't forget that the Jag had a massive 7.4L engine and the Merc was a 5L twin turbo V8, so it was all relative!
There was also a news article on the 'strip down' of the engine post race (where they invited the media to watch) and the engine was in such good condition that they could have put it back together again and run another 24hr race.
When all is said and done, even though a strange situation allowed it to win, 'to finish first you must first finish' must be considered over a race of that duration. The fact it still ran the whole race with barely anything going wrong with it and crossed the line deserves some credit regardless of how much 'slower' it was then the other cars racing.
Was lucky enough to be there that year and my god it was loud. Couldn't get much sleep that night in the car park - the ground would shake every lap it would come pass but what an atmosphere with the rival fans for the Jags & Mercs - hearing a whole grandstand shout 'taxi' every-time the mercs would go past was hilarious - great background Aidan, thanks!
Must of been amazing to be there 👍🏻
Must’ve been so cool to find out later that this unknown german merc driver you yelled taxi at became f1 world champion.
Gods I love Group C. There's just something about those cars, I can never work out what it is. Huge power, massive speed, Le Mans monsters, mostly H pattern boxes, no TC, the looks. They're so fun to drive in sims. Amazing to watch in videos. Just brilliant
Great until you need to turn and you forget its group c
@@dylanzrim3635 oh I wouldn't say that. Sure, if I'm coming from an F1 game they feel sluggish, but if I'm driving an old 70's or 60's F1, or a 917, or any road car really, then go back to Group C I'm always surprised how well they stick. They had a lot of down force for the time. The tyres... not as good haha
you kinda just worked it out yourself, motorsport just like any sport is has many factors that appeal to their fans
I am blessed to have seen IMSA, which were Group C in the US in the 80s at Watkins Glen (pre-chicane). Porsche 962 and RSRs, BMW -GTP and M1, Group 44 Jags. Awesome!
Le Mans content as we're getting close to this year 24h of Le Mans, heck yeah I love this type of video
Mazda fanbois like me, know that the car wasn't insanely quick.
The RX-7 at Bathurst with its 12A and 13B was never the quickest but it had probably the best engineer and one of the best drivers at the wheel; that's the only real contemporary case.
Well, Mazda eventually got back into racing by going to IMSA and partnering up with Team Joest to race in DPi. They finished 3rd in the standings last year and are currently second this year. Hell, first 4 races of this season they landed on the podium.
I attended Le Mans in '91 and watched the race. The Mazda sounded completely different but not so much louder than the other cars that it deafened us as spectators. Perhaps your information based on some sound meter readings that were not presented here. Definitely a different sound but not an order of magnitude louder to us bystanders.
Mazda is currently working on a new rotary with a hybrid engine, I believe. This could lead to development of a car that could make an Mazda re-introduction into Le Mans endurance racing.
The sound that car made was just mesmerizing.
you misspeled "orgasmic" mate
@@shackvillneuve3279 I see what you did there, and I also see what you did there.
deafening
Dorito!
Slant rhyme with Roberto
and Moreno
Thanks for clearing this up
I admit to see this car trough rose tinted glasses, but not by the normal reasons, while growing up with medical problems and poverty, this car by far is one that helped me alot, i was just getting into cars back then, but for some reason, playing with this car, for a few minutes, i could make me forget about the problems and put a smile on my face, i dint know anyting about the history of the car back then, but even theese days, the mazda is one of the few tings that brings me joy, it might not be the best, but its the one that helped me trough bad times
I think part of it was also due to it being the only Japanese car to win at Le Mans until very recently, along with having a very memorable livery (and the aforementioned sound).
the saddest thing about all this for me personally is how it kind of killed Rotary engine progress from there on forward cause nobody beside Mazda with the odd project here and there tried to make it work or improve on it. I would have liked to see where things could have gone if Rotaries had taken off amoungst other manufactures as well.
he’s wearing a Toronto blue jays jersey
Big respect
How did you switch accents that fast! That's amazing!
Must be a Mandela Effect too ??? 😱
I was like wait, he had an American acc- oh wait no he didn’t
I'm a rotary enthusiast (name said it all) i love my rx7 and the rotary engine. Love the noise and the power they make with little work if you know what you doing and i love working on them, BUT.... 787B won because benefited of all the other fast car breaking down.
Love the nod to beyond belief in the thumbnail
A buddy and I were talking about this car like two days ago, nice shirt btw
Hey Aidan I was just wondering if you had any ties to Canada? I just started on your channel and have been bingeing for 2 days and saw you drinking from a Tims cup!! Anyways keep up the great work on your vids. Also GO JAYS!!!
Nice top, Aidan. 💯👍🔥
Would be curious to compare fastest laps by the top teams during that storied race. Just a deeper dive.
I think the urban legend of it being too fast comes from Gran Turismo rather than the racing community. It was a good-enough car with a good-enough team that won the race. Did the circumstances help it? Sure. Does it make the car and the team any lesser for it? No. They won fair and square and they deserve the victory as much as any other car and team that has won the race.
It’s an absolute fact that the mainstream fame of this car and the idea that it was the fastest thing ever, is entirely due to Gran Turismo. The game introduced millions upon millions of young kids to racing
It's the Audi Sport Quattro S1 of Group C.
Looks cool, yes
Sounds amazing, yes
Fastest car, not even close
Could you do one of these on the Toyota GT-One TS202 please Aidan ?
The ending alone gets the like. Too good, too good.
"It's usually the brakes that don't work on a Mercedes" I see what you did there
I always thought the 787B had hype because of Gran Turismo, like the Toyota 88-CV.
Another case of gamers that don't actually watch racing.
Mazda gave us a tiny spark of hope of going back to endurance racing with the LM55 for the Vision Gran Turismo project back in 2014
ALRIGHT!! Let’s go Jays!!!
The C11 should have won that year. It was sooooo much better. Luck was on Mazda’s side.
reliability but yeah, was sad for C11 to lose despite it being faster than 787B
after all it's endurance racing
@@barkyonyx962 Reliability afforded by a loophole though. I doubt the 787b's would have even been in contention if they had to suffer the extra weight like everyone else.
@@JustSomeDinosaurPerson oh yeah was it because of the rotary protest thing iirc? (for some reason yt won't give me notifs)
So in the end, it was just fast enough to win. Thanks for the video.
So I think we all need these motor-sport debunking videos as a series.
There’s plenty out there.
Shoutout Toronto and the Bluejays. Big love from TO
But that sound... goosebumps. Pure emotion.
from a Canadian. nice to see the jays jersey!!!
I loved the sound and looks of this car. However, I have to believe that if in some sort of fantasy alternate reality in which you could run this race 100 times that the Mazda would end up winning maybe 5....
Sorry but they got extremely lucky.
They were certainly lucky but Mazda had been at Le Mans for many years running rotary engines quietly in a class of their own. I think Mazda went to Le Mans because they enjoyed it. The other Japanese teams (Toyota and Nissan) always seemed to be there only for a win. The winning Mazda was one of three Mazdas entered in 1991. They put three fast drivers in that car and stuck with arguably more "reliable" drivers in the other two. Maybe it was luck. It was a popular victory at the time, and seems to remain so. I'm a long time Johnny Herbert fan and was delighted to see him demonstrate his abilities while there was still doubt about his recovery from the F3000 crash.
The interesting thing is that peripheral port rotaries such as the 787B actually do have crazy good fuel efficiency. At full throttle the BSFC is down around where very efficient Diesel engines are. In race trim the engines were also running lean of stoichiometric, which you can do with a rotary as there are no exhaust valves to burn up. This increases efficiency even more at the expense of power, but during the race they were shifting at only 8000rpm, so it is not as if they were concerned about power, just fuel economy.
The 787b is a mainstay in the GT games for years now and the sound and the livery are such standouts it makes them special
The Mazda 787B could have had more performance if it wasn't banned - I recall reading somewhere that Mazda actually detuned the R26B to preserve its life for the 24 hours of Le Mans, so, if they had more time for development, it's entirely possible the speed of the car may have been improved through more horsepower. It still sounds absoluely brilliant though!
Mazda had Jackie Ickx lobby the FIA to make Mazda the exception and allow them to reduce further the weight even lower then the ruling limit.... They were the lightest in 1992....
i didn't know that about the 787b. i also didn't know the blue jays had any fans.
Noooo you can’t win Le Mans with a rotary engine
Haha spiny Dorito go brap brap brap
Dorito then go zoom zoom zoom
Then apex seal go boom.
Dorito goes scratch scratch
@@alaeriia01 keep googling...
The first rotary engine at LM was in 1970 ,the Chevron B16 #48 sponsored by Levi's.
I'd be up for more videos about group c prototypes x reason for x.
Rotary goes brap brap brap brap brap
I used to believe in the myth that it was too fast until I tried driving it in Assetto Corsa and was underwhelmed by it's actual speed
I have had the honner of seeing the 787 it's alot smaller than it looks in pictures. It's at the Mazda factory / museum in Hiroshima and yes I touched it when the tour guide wasn't looking.
I saw an LMP3 at a trade show a few years back and they are tiny too.
Even a 2013 f1 car is tiny.
@@AidanMillward the 787 is strangely tucked away in dark corner without much attention at all. Big fan of the channel and I have really enjoyed your videos coving the happenings of this year's F1 season.
Yeah I’ve seen it at Goodwood twice. Might have had a sneaky stroke of the front nose piece…..😂
@@andrewharper4296 how could you not when the opportunity presents itself.
If there is one racing car I'm sick of hearing being ascribed some "legendary" status it's the Mazda 787B. Its win was one-off fluke brought about by unusual circumstances. The rest of the 1991 WSC season it didn't even finish on the podium much less win a race. As for a "underdog winner" I'd say the 1980 winner of the LeMans, Jean Rondeau, is worth more admiration by winning in a car he both designed and raced. It also had his name...
A rotary winning due to being the most reliable and fuel efficient is something the piston gang will never be able to live down. Brap ftw.
Yeah but the Sauber C11 and Jag XJR-12 shat on it throughout every other race in performance terms. So no not really that impressive although, we all know you rotary fanboys finger yourselves over it even though Porsche Peugeot Jaguar and Sauber Mercedes all have far more impressive Group C records.
Yeah, because it didn't have the extra ballast handicap lol
Technically, the GEARBOX was more reliable as that's what broke in the Merc.
The Furai burning down at the Top Gear Test Track was truly a travesty, and Mazda never building another one was criminal.
I was under the impression that you had already covered this... but even if true, this is a good way to pump out contents: the memory of internet users is short, so you just need to go to your back catalog and re-read the same scripts :-D
He did but a lot of his videos particularly story time ended up being copyrighted
I'm another Mazda fan. Owned a mk1 MK5 for 18-19 years and owned a Mazda rotary engined car as well, a FD3, complete with the 15th anniversary air tunnel designed/tuned Mazspeed body kit, brought out to celebrate the LeMans victory and I ..... always knew the car was comparatively slow compared to it's rivals. On the old FDUK owners group/forum (no clue if it's still going) it was a bit of amusing pride that the 787 was slow but won due to being reliable while being powered by an engine lots of people would tell us was the opposite (and without regular servicing/maintenance really could be).
I know naff all (bar this video) about the Mazda Le Man's racing car.
I did have a late 1980s Mazda RX7 for 1 year only in the mid 1990s . It was an experience. I was young, petrol was 50 pence per litre, and having that rotary turbine like whine was entertaining. I guess I miss it , well I was young at the time , the shape looked good !
However there is no getting away from the fact it did about between 15 to 23 MPG depending on the type of driving. It usually got around 19 MPG . A similarly powerful piston engine, would have got 30 to 35 MPG.
Then there was it's oil consumption, and the big worry, "when will I need an engine rebuild ?" . Apparently even Mazda couldn't get them to last much more than 60,000 miles before they needed some "care and attention" !
So do I miss my Mazda RX7 ? Well yeah !
Would I buy another one ? Naaah, no thanks. Especially with petrol at £1.60 / litre !
Cheers from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.
It's also so popular because of it's badass livery.
Btw, are you gonna watch King of Hammers (it's live here on YT)?
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how fast it was.....it still won Le Mans. And its still one of the greatest sounding machines ever made.
As far as great sounding machines go the real doll with built in moan and gag sound effects will give the 787B a run for it's money 👉👌👉👌
@@thunderdick6117 You're such an edge-lord.
I am a rotary (and two stroke) fan boy but I totally understand why boring, reliable four stroke piston engines won out in the end.
before that season started as you said, the rules were already that some engines were banned for the next season
period
unrelated to the topic but just wanted to say i'm lovin the resident evil references, I recently met the original actor of Barry Burton from the live action trailer of the 1996 resident evil game, he teaches motorbike lessons for learners here in wagga wagga (Aus) and kept cracking hilarious inappropriate jokes (that all the blokes there loved) about pretty much everything. He was a school principal here and now rides Harleys and goes to big bike meetups regularly out here. Thought you might appreciate some random RE trivia lol
Just in case anyone was wondering: In Gran Turismo 4, the 787B actually has the correct amount of power, IF you leave it alone. Gran Turismo has always allowed you to tune your car, and what it lets you do to the 787B is add a turbocharger, which increases the power to that 900ish HP figure that everybody seems to be familiar with. Whether that's still true of the newer games, I don't know. I kind of lost interest in the newer games.
love the video
1:16 Yeah, the stories I hear about group B makes the Guns N' Roses Montreal riot look tame!
One other problem is that everyone seems to be talking about these cars in a vacuum. Yes it was incredibly fast and very high numbers. But they all did, people seem to forget that
One of the reasons mazda was allowed to run without the ballast weight was they argued to the FIA that the R26B engine only had a 2.6 litre displacement and as such would be at a significant disadvantage. Mazda conviniently left out that the rotary had many more power pulses per revolution compared to a piston powerd engine. Officials were unfamiliar with rotary engines and they thought the R26B was compareable to a 2.6L 4 stroke when in reality the R26B is much closer to a 2.6L 2 stroke.
Dayum Aidan, I loved Group C back then, I've got all the LeMans 'summary' videos for those years. In the US we had a magazine called OnTrack from Paul Oxman publishing, I remember reading about this regulation(s) that drove the 956 & 962s away along with TWRs Jags & (Mazda was there I think all those years as well)... been a while though. Thanks for the refresher/booster shot. Ahh.. memory lane
You got everything right except that you are still furthering the myth that the rotary is unreliable. It is actually one of the most reliable engines ever raced! It is only owners lack of knowledge on how to treat a rotary that makes them unreliable. Aside, of course from the Renesis engine in the RX-8. You have to do regular oil changes on a rotary. You can't go 10,000 km. between changes. It is best to use a pre mix of oil with the fuel, especially in an RX-8. And finally, they need to be warm before you push them. Once warm though, you must take them to the redline at least once every drive to blow out carbon deposits. Especially the RX-8!
The 787 that won LeMans still runs today with the same, not rebuilt engine that it won the race with. They tore it down after the race and it was in such good shape that it could have done two more 24 races. It made around 750 horsepower in the race, but it was capable of 950 HP. They de-tuned it for reliability.
You are correct that rotaries consume a lot of fuel though. But then again, a Bugatti Veyron will drain its tank in 10 minutes at full throttle.
Lol. No rotary production produces a fraction of the HP that a Bugatti Veyron does, nor is that car a daily driver that competes with other cars priced at around $30k. If I must change the oil more frequently than a normal ICE, must premix the fuel which I don't need to do with a regular ICE and redline it to "blow it out" unlike any other ICE else the rotary goes BOOM, which they do after burning more oil than a conventional ICE until that happens, the engine is unreliable. As you say, Mazda couldn't even run the 787B at the capacity is was designed for because..."unreliability." They're junk and it's certainly no myth.
@@F1jones you will find that most race engines are rebuilt quite regularly. Some after every race. The fact that rotaries have won more than their fair share of endurance races is testament to their reliability. The road cars have issues with the emission systems, hence they don't make them anymore.
You will never understand the appeal to you drive one. My first car was a rotary and I've lived them ever sense. I had one ported for racing that I drove on the road for a while. It embarrassed much more exotic and powerful cars.
@@jaimegrant784 The 787B won a grand total of 1 race, which just happened to be Le Mans. A few motorbikes won a few dozen races, but definitely not more than their fair share.
Finally a person who isn’t a total meatball 😂
I’ve seen this old japanese 787b documentary, the engineers said that they specifically designed it to be reliable and they knew it will be reliable because of the lack of moving parts in comparison to a piston engine. The only thing they really had to do after every race was take it apart, replace the apex seals and seal the rotor housing back up.
But in terms of rotary engines in street cars, it’s not ideal. Unless you’re a DIY-er, racer, car guy, mechanic or maybe even an engineer, doing oil changes every 10,000km/6200mi isn’t practical, at least IMO.
What I think Mazda should have done is stuck the renesis in the MX5 cup car.
@@decb I'm not taking about just the 787B. Mazda rotaries have been racing since the 60s. And they have wona lot! At one point, the Mazda Rx-7 was the car with the most wins in the history of IMSA. They have also won their class at the Daytona 24 many times. The Rx-7 also won its first race ever at the 24 hours of Spa. Before that they did very well with the first Cosmo. Then the Rx-2 and the Rx-3 did very well in Japan. For racing, the rotary is very reliable, and it has excellent power to weight.
It serves the narrative that "modern racing cars are no good because they aren't loud enough" if the loudest Group C car is automatically the best. Of course the 3.5L Bernie-inspired formula that followed (and never quite led to the crossover of engines with F1 that was hoped aside from Peugeot's terrible F1 program) were loud, too, but thinking things through doesn't generally go with this type of knee-jerk reaction.
To your point, with the new generation of F1 hybrids, which aren't quiet, I've found people can't differentiate between volume and tone. Goes with the similar confusion over taste and flavor.
If I was to design a light single seater, I would look at the rotary option... But think about the trade off because it is lighter and more compact which is good; but it is also too small to be used as a stressed part of the chassis, and it also could be more costly to develop because only so many manufacturers exist.
And might end up using a formula 3/formula regional engine instead...
Woah, nice jersey
I think the whole problem with this thing is the myth surrounding it, and the car weebs (like myself) who kinda got duped into perpetuating it.
Still, it is an important car. A bunch of guys at Mazdaspeed (still salty Mazda's retired that name/brand) took a Jag chassis, modified it, bolted a 4 rotor in it, and just kinda sent it out as one last hurrah. And it won. Thus the legend wrote itself.
Mazda commissioned the 787B from Lola (IIRC) in the UK under the direction of Nigel Stroud. The Jaguar (TWR built, Ross Brawn designed) MXR-01 car that came after was powered by a Judd V10. It did not win.
That noise from the 787 hmmmm, gives me the fizz
Gran Turismo. It introduced millions of kids to racing(myself included) and imprinted this car as an absolute icon in our minds.
I was just going through bit a your videos(I like your channel) and came upon this one. With out any of my Rotary fan boy coming out. The 1991 La mans was just a situation of the last car running (kinda) that’s all I have to say about that.
It may not be the Rocketship the stories say it is, but it is still my favourite Group C car. Love the looks and sound of it. I still think Group C and Group B were the golden age of motorsport.
Tdot love the blue jays jersey
3:31 where can i get this shirt?
Summoned the Power of Frakes!
Careful how you mount and dismount that chair, it looks too high for the Riker Dismount
I thought the ban had to do with fuel efficiency... with the 787b being (ironically) one of the most fuel efficient cars at the event.