Grosmont to Battersby Route Learning and Cab Ride on Class 25 No. D7628 - Part 1/2
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- Опубліковано 10 кві 2020
- Part 1/2
Grosmont to Battersby Route Learning and Cab Ride on Class 25 No. D7628.
Watch Part 2/2: • Battersby to Whitby Ro...
Filmed in 2008 on the Esk Valley Branch.
Note that the layout of Whitby station has subsequently been altered to re-instate Platform 2 for the North Yorkshire Moors Railway.
See updated Esk Valley Line Route Learning with the new Whitby station layout:
Battersby to Whitby:
• Battersby to Whitby Es...
Whitby to Battersby:
• Whitby to Battersby EV...
A real driver who knows how it should be done. A pleasure to watch.
Dead now I beleive
@@jwilloughby6175 A lovely film about a true gent and a world gone by. Thank you for letting me know.
@@jwilloughby6175 Very much isn't!
I remember him driving steam engines in the early 70's! He must be older than he looks.
The Driver, Mr Chris Cubitt, is still alive and, still driving both on the NYMR and West Coast Railways.
Brilliant - very informative video especially re shunting moves and token procedure at Battersby. Unless Northern send their DMU guys out for refreshers occasionally, there must be only a handful of drivers who ever get to use the shunting key there!
I come from Herefordshire but to hear the Yorkshire from this young man is great..
All Aboard. All Aboard. Enjoy the ride.
Thanks for he great vid. Love the token machines, they look like ancient one armed bandits.
It appears a number of bridges with 10mph restrictions are in the process of being replaced. Pleasure to watch!
Great video. I loved every moment of it. In South Africa we had the Van Schoor ticket system operating on many of our branch lines. sadly, that is long lost now.
A Really Useful Railway.
Excellent video, thank goodness we have such wonderful footage of train to see us through these difficult time.
Super video giving an insight to how it all works. Always a pleasure to watch a pro at work.
This is a great video, atmospheric, educational and a real insight into the operations on the line. Many thanks.
Terrific video. Interesting and informative with such lovely surroundings
Loved it,driver really knows his onions, fascinating to watch also as ive never been on the network rail part,you see the signs from the Moors road but you'd never know it was there
Brilliant foolproof 150 year old analogue Victorian engineering! Yeah well, telephones apart. Used to be ding-ding pause-ding on the bells, I assume.
Loved it, very good instruction old school, you’ve not aged a day, cheers mate
Really interesting. Thank you for posting such an informative video. 👍👍
I thoroughly enjoyed that! Very professional. But l am a bit old fashioned, preferred signal boxes on the line. Thanks for sharing 👍
Excellent insight into how token systems work. Thank you
Indeed, and with the ground frames too! I've always wanted to see a video on one of the NSTR lines, I've found their working really fascinating!
Could you put your Whitby to Pickering route on Steam Workshop please?
@@926.repton unfortunately it wont go 9n workshop because it uses a lot of custom made assets. Sorry
@@andyjgough it's ok
You're a really useful engine.
Great video and very interesting 👍👍👍
Brilliant video , but sad to see the closed signal boxes and how stripped back this line became in the 1980s.
A fascinating incite to token working. there is a lot more to it than meets the eye
Wow, how did he ever learn all this? Have watched a number of times, I'm still lost - respect!!
I guess this is not the first time he's done this
Yes, a really interesting video - thank you!
I remember my late father working on Swanage's connection to Wareham planning its signalling etc, protocols for drivers, Network Rail were quite impressed as my father was the walking rule book through and through and he kept a library of them pastel books updated even after leaving BR. Have driven a 73 under diesel along the Redhill to Tonbridge line on a night mail I hitched a cab ride on and a couple of EPB's at Selhurst, my uncle was a 33 driver at Hoo and I spent several childhood summer days as his "secondman" and learned the age old quest for tea that seemed to beset every railman back then and he had the cheek of even knocking on kitchen windows of houses along the lines for a top up O.o Now I just drive on train simulator lol but hoping to offer my services to something like the Bo'ness if my move to Scotland comes through.
Another fond memory of them pastel books was me dad and uncle with a party seven tapped, would spend evenings on their relevant rule books and workings instructions and would test each other, my father as a relief not only had to know every inch of his "kingdom" but every inch of every box he was passed out on and because he maintained his passings, he would often relief on a lesser grade. He loved it too, one week he would be at Elmers End, the next down west way at Effingham Jnc or Hither Green, or along the Sheerness line which was another excuse for father and uncle to drink loads of tea as they held up traffic on the passenger services lol
An excellent insight
You can keep those driving experience day packages where you drive a fancy car around a race track, I would love it if there was an option to do something like this! Very interesting.
There is, google Great Central Railway in Loughborough, Leicestershire, UK. They have options/packages for steam and diesel-electric.
I done a taster course on a small Tank engine on the Severn Valley Railway, Bewdley to Kidderminster and back, was something I've wanted to do for years, many Heritage Railways have learning courses for steam or diesel
What a fantastic documentary mr Cubitt and all other's involved thanks
Fascinating, thanks. The number of speed restricions was a bit of a shock, though,
You should see it in 2023. It's even worse
@@nymrfootage Blimey!
Those Battersby shunt instructions were so complicated. Glad I don't have to remember them all!
I am glad he knows what he's talking about.😀
A pleasure to watch. How long is this line in miles?
On leaving Glaisdale ( 21:35 ) the trailing points were not set, and you ran through them.What type of points are these please?
Andrew Crisp I’m glad you picked that up, I was thinking exactly the same.
Hydraulic points that are set to return to open for trains coming in the opposite direction to this train's travel.
Yes, these auto-restoring points are designed to be run through in the trailing direction. They're quite common on single-track lines, where the passing loops are normally used in one particular way. The yellow point-indicator signal on approach in the facing direction is characteristic of the type.
Great video. Who controls the points entering and departing each passing loop section?
The points at Glaisdale are hydro-pneumatic. There are only a few on the national network nowadays. Entry into Glaisdale from Grosmont/Whitby end is controlled by a points indicator light. When lit yellow, the driver can proceed over the points into Glaisdale station. Similar points indicator light is provided for entry into Glaisdale when travelling from Battersby. If the points fail they have to be operated by hand. There is no intervention from the signalman at Nunthorpe in changing the points.
The points at Battersby are operated by point motors and rely upon the signalling and annunciators on the track and the extraction or insertion of the token into token machines and the pressing of plungers at the signals to operate the points and change the signal aspects. Again, there is no control of the points or signals by the actual signaller at Nunthorpe.
The signaller only allows the extraction of a token from the token cabinet after the driver has spoken to the signaller and obtained permission and release to take a token.
It was designed like this in the 80s to reduce cost and have minimal intervention from signallers.
Now tech bro's that is what a _fungible_ token looks like...
Filmed in 2008…! Almost as historic as the line itself ;)
Great video.
One would think that the signaller would be located at Battersby rather than Nuntrhope due to it being a junction and more complex.
There used to be one there
Nunthorpe is much busier than Battersby, it has an hourly service to Middlesbrough and Newcastle via the Durham Coast line. It also has a passing loop and a level crossing. Only one platform is in use at Battersby so the operational layout is actually simpler: the junction is is just a set of points to the east of the station. Trains arrive at the platform, stop long enough for the driver to contact Nunthorpe to release the relevant token (just like Glaisdale), change ends and set off towards Middlsbrough or Whitby.
I think I have watched this more times than baywatch or charlie's angels. So another question or two. Have you ever had to announce that you have arrived incomplete? How does the Grosmont derailer get reset? Thanks for this I really didnt know I was so interested in railway operations.
In my time at the railway on whilst on a loco going to Whitby, I'm not aware that anyone has arrived at Sleights incomplete, thankfully.
The derailer gets set or reset by Grosmont signal box when the points are set for Esk valley.
Hi Still fascinated by this video, another stupid question though. At 5:45 at Grosmont the crossover that the ground frame is controlling is a double slip. So how does the single lever operate the two sets of blades to allow the loco to go through the double slip?
@andrewbuckley9180
It's standard design for any connection with two point-ends, that one point lever operates both ends. Where there are compounds/ double-slips as at Grosmont, the crossover point lever moves only the blades for the route through the crossover.
There's a building just east of Castleton Moor station with short lengths of track around it. I wonder what that's about.
Also, those rail joints seem awfully rough. Or the Class 25 just has a very stiff suspension.
Great video and very interesting. A couple of questions spring to mind. First, why are there so many tokens in the token machines? At 0:28 think I can see 7 tokens so does that mean 7 trains (provided they are all going in the same direction) could be on the line at once? Second, is it possible to take more than one token out? If not, how is this achieved? Thanks
The machines are interlocked so you can only ever have one out. There is more than one to allow trains to follow each other through.
Once upon a time, they ran multiple trains in the same direction on a single line at once but incidents taught us that was a bad idea and so you can only ever have 1 train in a section at a time and the interlocking will only allow one token to be out at a time the extra tokens are for being able to send other trains in the same direction but only after the previous one has cleared the section.
Was this line double track at one time ? I can remember the section from Whitby to grosmont was double track
It was double track from Whitby to Grosmont until mid 80s, think 1984
How come the train passes the red light when approaching Battersby junction? Is that normal working?
Sorry at the risk of being banned from asking questions, how can a light engine arrive incomplete?
Two engines coupled up is still classed as a light engine so therefore technically one could be lost
Sad to see Battersby today. It looks a shadow of its former self. Mary Bransby was a signalwoman in the 70s / 80s.
Is Mary Bransbury the lady who appeared in the Michael Palin documentary that filmed at Battersby signal box in the early 80s?
@@nymrfootage yes she was. She was also in a video filmed in 1976/77 that is on youtube and Rail Watch just before the box closed in 89.
@@stephenbourne4872 thanks
@@nymrfootage love the video. The driver knows his stuff!
Good solid working practice - tedious in operation maybe, but priority is SAFETY before all else( or SHOULD be ). Mind you, i reckon JR has eclipsed Britain and certainly the US for efficient, safe and clean railway travel - and mainly on 3ft gauge too !
This cumbersome system, with phone calls and keys, has a certain efficiency too - it was intended to support four trains a day, and this system needed minimal effort to set up and keep operating.
Possibly Radio Electronic Token Block or its successors would be an improvement - replace the phone calls and cabinets with an in-cab radio-based system. Not sure if such systems existed when this line was last reworked.
Ironically, mechanical signalling systems tend to stay in place in Britain because they can keep working forever on a "patch and mend" basis. Whereas old relay-based electrical interlocking, and old software-based interlocking, reach a point where they become impossible to maintain and can only be replaced with new signalling systems.
When a NYMR train arrives at Whitby, can a northern train then run to Whitby and use the other platform. Or is only one train at a time allowed through to Whitby on the Grosmont Whitby section.
Now that there is a second platform, the token can be replaced in the machine to permit a second movement over the single-line section. At the time of filming there was only one platform.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but before privatisation of BR - running private steam on BR metals was impossible at times?
I think that is correct. Certainly late 60s and possibly into the early 1970s.
With trains running from the NYMR into Whitby have the token sections changed (Glaisdale to Grosmont and Grosmont to Whitby) to allow NR trains to run between?
Isochest No, the token section is still Glaisdale-Whitby so NYMR and Northern timetables are interlinked.
@@jacksepticeyejr1086 I shall have to look into that. I do think some electronic token system should increase capacity but with videos like this it seems the NYMR run trains much further afield than ever intended.
Please excuse my ignorance but is there any significance to the occasional yellow painted sleeper/ tie?
Ones for the track gangs to have a look at. Unless you are meaning the orange things which are plastic pipes into which electric cable pass.
what is that banging you can see it on the camera? sounds like you have something stuck on the wheel.
Amazing video. If you’re unable to proceed out of the station within 5 minutes, and the signaller has already sent a train along, you said you had to go 300 yards down the track and place something 20 yards apart? I didn’t quite catch what it was and would love to know an explanation. Many thanks!
I believe he mentioned detonators 300yds apart. If this is correct, I assume they go bang when run over warning the driver of an approaching train that there is a hazard ahead. Maybe completely wrong.....
It was detonators 300 yards from the points or points indicator and 20 yards apart. They explode under pressure of a passing train and 3 in a row means stop as there is an obstruction ahead.
@@mattlander9119 Thanks for the correction Matt, yes I re-watched it
On that note, does that hold for all NSTR implementations, or just this one?
If unable to proceed because of a train fault, driver must declare the train a failure to the signaller and request assistance. The dets then have to be placed to protect the failed train by warning the driver of the assisting train.
My understanding re "within 5 minutes" is that, on withdrawing a token from the instrument, the equipment switches off TPWS protection for that time, after which it switches it back on. So if the train hasn't 'failed' but there's undue delay (e.g. problem with passengers or a door needs a few kicks to close properly), the driver should return to the hut, check whether the blue TPWS light is still flashing and if it isn't get the signaller's permission to put the token back and withdraw it again.
Interesting and educational video thanks, at 21:39 the loco passes points that aren't set right? Did anyone notice? How come it didn't derail or am I being thick?
I believe they are pneumatic points and change position when the train goes over them. There are a set at each end of Glaisdale station. They are very and far between now on the national network.
@@nymrfootage
Yes - wheelsets of trains in the trailing ('exiting') direction at this sort of passing loop force the point blades over against the hydro-pneumatic ram, which then returns the points to normal a few seconds after the train passes clear. In recent years I believe many of this type have been replaced with powered points as part of NSTR upgrades, where the route is set by token withdrawal instead.
Is there a reason why the token block has not been split up or allocated a short section to Whitby-grosmont / grosmont-glaidsdale? Surely that would make operations easier and not hold up an entire section of line for no reason! Network rail trains could wait at grosmont for the next section.
A very good question.
My understanding is that when the line was singled in the 1980s to reduce costs, the reduced traffic over the line did not require a block section from Grosmont to Whitby.
NYMR weren't running daily services to Whitby and I believe there were only three or possibly four services from Middlesbrough to Whitby, so an intermediate token was implemented to keep costs lower between Grosmont and Whitby in the event the NYMR needed to take a train to Whitby.
However, today, it would be beneficial to have a block section from Grosmont to Whitby as the line is actually running at capacity during the daytime.
A block section for Grosmont to Whitby would allow some extra flexibility for both Northern and the NYMR. How much though, I'm not sure. It may just allow additional time for the services that presently run in the available slots.
@@nymrfootage I thought it may have been double line due to the extra area under the bridges,Did the stations have 2 platforms?BTW. A great video.
@@RichardFelstead1949 Once upon a time the NYMR was double track from Rillington Junction to Whitby , and Whitby station had four platforms and an overall roof. Ruswarp and Sleights had two platforms - you can see the ruins to this day.
@@RichardFelstead1949 the line from Gosmont to Battersby was built to double line standards but outside of the stations it was single line. It was ever doubled as the revenue earned by the line was not sufficient go justify such a change.
@@nymrfootage
I've read in recent years of proposals/ feasibility studies to enhance the signalling for more capacity, but if the experience elsewhere is anything to go by, it all comes down to money (obviously) and, on lines like this, to what extent it's acceptably safe to add more sections/ more frequent trains without triggering complete replacement of NSTR with TCB.... Not only NR but HM Railway Inspectorate must be happy!
when was this filmed?
It says at the top, 2008.
@@edwinbisby6512 This was long before regular NYMR services to Whitby, because when I volunteered there in the early 2010s Whitby services were a pipe dream and considered by some staff to be a white elephant.
DORLING KINDERSLEY DK EYEWITNESS GUIDES Book of TRAIN.
In association with THE NATIONAL RAILWAY MUSEUM.
21st Century Train Rides.
At 29.36 in this documentary can someone tell me which bridge it is. watch?v=8Fz8SuyExYk
21:22 Did anyone else notice - the first set of points was in the correct position to transfer the loco TO the right-hand line, yet - the second set of points was in the wrong position to receive the FROM from the points ! Stop the video at timestamp 21:39 - those points are in the WRONG position !
The points pneumatic points and change position when the train goes over them. There are a set at each end of Glaisdale station. They are very and far between now on the national network and may now be the only remaining set of pneumatic points left on the national network as of 2024.
@21:47. Would those points be sprung then?
The points at Glaisdale are hydro-pneumatic. There are only a few on the national network nowadays. Entry into Glaisdale from Grosmont/Whitby end is controlled by a points indicator light. When lit yellow, the driver can proceed over the points into Glaisdale station. Similar points indicator light is provided for entry into Glaisdale when travelling from Battersby. If the points fail they have to be operated by hand. There is no intervention from the signalman at Nunthorpe in changing the points.
The points at Battersby are operated by point motors and rely upon the signalling and annunciators on the track and the extraction or insertion of the token into token machines and the pressing of plungers at the signals to operate the points and change the signal aspects. Again, there is no control of the points or signals by the actual signaller at Nunthorpe.
The signaller only allows the extraction of a token from the token cabinet after the driver has spoken to the signaller and obtained permission and release to take a token.
It was designed like this in the 80s to reduce cost and have minimal intervention from signallers.
I was going to say! They're a fairly rare sight nowadays. Video is very helpful. Just going through my driver training so it really does help! Thanks!
21:40 trailing points set against direction of travel; I guess that doesn't matter...?
Those points are hydro-pneumatic. They set as the locomotive or unit passes over them.
I believe there are only a handful of these type of points in use on the national network now.
these type of points can be found of the west highland line
@@nymrfootage They are used extensively on the far north line, where train protection is afforded by radio electric token block.
Single lines are pretty much the only places you'd get this sort of points
Why does the train pass the signal at Danger into Battersby?
I think that part of the video was filmed from the rear cab on the return journey, and reversed to make it look like forward travel. Notice that there's a hard cut in the video a bit before that, and a change in the audio. Just a guess, but perhaps the camera's battery or tape ran out.
@@Kromaatikse
Good eye, can kind of see it with how the bushes are being blown about in reverse.
Because it's a permissive block signal. A permissive signal can be passed at danger, provided you're moving slowly enough to come to a stop at any obstruction beyond it, in this case the end of the track. Since there will always be an obstruction past that signal, it will never have a proceed aspect.
It’s actually a yellow aspect that’s made to look red by the camera
@@SynchroScore Nope it should be showing a yellow aspect and if it was cleared for a permissive move the 2 white position lights would be lit
20:20 Surely this procedure violates the "nothing follows until the line is clear" principle?
The driver is in possession of a token for the section the train is travelling, so no other train can enter the section until he token has been returned to the token cabinet at the end of the section.
Well no because the train is in the loop and clear of the section and is expected to be moving off into the next section.
Wonder what the St Trinians' girls would have made of this lot? 🤔😅😅😅
After 58.00 an animal crosses the line after loco has passed....
It's all welded rail now then, the old clickety clack has gone :(
That looked like one hell a SPAD at 49:15! Was it red 🔴 it just me being daft? What if there was another train approaching from Middlesbrough?
Sir Topham Hatt the Railway Controller.
Crikey! No wonder it takes so long to get from Whitby to Middlesbrough; all this faffing about with token machines. Why is there no signalmen at Glaisdale and Battersby to hand the tokens to drivers as the enter/leave the station like at Nunthorpe? It would be far more efficient. Other than that what about radio signaling, or track circuit block? 😫
It's the low speeds because of the poor track and bridges that slow things down, not the tokens It only takes like 2 minutes to exchange tokens and it's only done twice while passengers are boarding so changing the type of working really wouldn't be worth it. If there were signal boxes at Battersby and Glaisdale the only difference would be the signaller will remove the token and driver will have to stop to collect it from them anyway so not really saving any time, plus signal boxes are getting closed not opened. For track circuit block they'd have to track circuit the entire line then install signals and that would likely be very costly given the rural nature of the line and ERTMS ETCS Level 2 or RETB would require the trains that uses the line to be retrofitted with the equipment in the cab and that would bring issues with running heritage stock on the line especially for locos visiting the NYMR for galas they seem to be doing away with RETB anyway and ETCS is still very costly and other lines need it much more then the Esk Valley does. The line would likely remain NSTR for the foreseeable future. Plus if they resignal it they'd likely shut Nunthorpe box and do it all from York ROC so the signallers will lose their jobs.
@@tgm9991 The signalmen can easily move to other locations. I was thinking of radio working the line like the Ravenglass & Eskdale is signalled. The driver reports his position on the approach to a loop and signalman tells him to stop or go through as appropriate. When clear and in section the driver confirms this with the signalman. Easy as putting on a hat!
@@nigelkthomas9501 No the signaller can't they have to stay with their box and Ravenglass & Eskdale run toy trains this is the real railway with real trains where working by verbal instructions alone on a single line gets people killed we learnt those lessons early on with railways.
@@tgm9991 Well, there’s never been any problems on the Ratty with radio signalling that way. It’s very efficient. Why does size matter? I think you might be thinking of time interval working which obviously wasn’t great because if a train broke down there was no way of letting anyone know what had happened.
There’s a railway somewhere in Switzerland that’s signalled just like the Ratty. That’s where they got the idea from.
@@nigelkthomas9501 Size matters because they're not held to the same standards as full-size railways they don't run to the same rule book and the consequences are reduced when compared to the potential of two 70 ton multiple units hurtling towards each other at up to 60-75mph. The whole reason that signalling systems on the mainline are interlocked to prevent conflicting moves is because human beings can't be relied on to remember where their trains are and not get distracted which is something that purely using 2-way radios don't protect against.
the view is awesome, but it goes too slow, doesn't it?
The poor condition of the track, bridges and the tight curves really brings down the line speed plus the camera makes it look even slower
A TGV is easier to drive than this
Must be most boring journey Iv seen, no interesting views , try Chester to Holyhead.
The view from the cab is forward facing so very limited, if you could see the wider angle you would have seen many lovely and "interesting views" this branch is a pleasure to travel on.