Sup Jimmy! Just finished The Judging Eye today (first read). The imagery described when the Skin Eaters are inside Cil-Aujas, and the tension Bakker built up over those first 40 or so pages before things go bad is UNREAL. It was like the Mine's of Moria on crack. Can't wait to get into the White-Luck Warrior and return to the SLOG OF SLOGS!
Great discussion by you three! Thanks for always putting out great content Jimmy...I think for me The Judging Eye holds this weird place in that it's my least favorite book in The Second Apocalypse series while simultaneously being one of the best fantasy books I have ever read. Looking forward to your future discussions and thank you for taking the time to do them
I agree with you, it is my least favorite of the Aspect Emperor series, but the entire journey of the Skin Eaters in C'il Aujus is by itself one of the best fantasy sequences put to ink. Judging eye like The Darkness that comes before is "hurt" by the fact that it is mostly set-up and introduction to concepts and characters that the other 3 books will explore.
Amazing group discussion again. Great hosting job. Love everyone’s unique POV’s and insights. Biggest WTF for me on this book was that the Gods are actually real, and have agency. The Judging Eye is my favorite, but only due to the “journey beginning” feel. I love the atmosphere. TWLW and TGO / TUC are more epic to be sure, but I revisit this one the most.
the gods and the metaphysics of these books are some of my favorite parts of it. All of the chapters dealing with Yatwher and the gods are amazing, and make the gods feel truly like parts of the world. In other fantasy stories you sometimes ask "why do the people worship these gods?" and in this series you get your answer, the gods hold immense power, but they are still limited to the rules of the Outside/Inside. Satma Nanaferi is one of my favorite characters in these books, her chapters and actions are disgusting and weird in the "holeyest" way possible.
I love these discussions, The aspect Emperor series, goes a lot deeper and darker than the Prince of Nothing. The judging eye is a great book, and the last 100 or so pages are some of the best fantasy action in the genre, with only a few scenes in the latter books beating it for me. While I really like this book, this is probably my least favorite in the AE series, not because it's bad, but because the other 3 books and especially The Great Ordeal and The Unholy Consult have some truly harrowing events and character arcs. And the best use of "subverting expectations" i have seen in a literary work. One thing to pay attention to in the future books is the contrast of the journey of the Skin Eaters and The Great Ordeal. This series also gets really deep into the Gods and "divinity", and the metaphysics of this world are extremely unique, some of my favorite scenes in the AE series are all about the relationship between "Divinity","truth", "Damnation" and "Salvation". After finishing the AE series i started re-reading the entire saga, and the ammount of things that were foreshadowed in the first trilogy that are vital to the entire story are astounding. The prologue and first Kellhus chapters in Darkness have a completely different feeling and meaning after you reach the end of the series. This series as ruined 99% of fantasy fiction for me, and i hope Bakker manages to publish The No God series. Get ready for Bakkers wild ride, there are no seatbelts on it and there is no escape from it. This is the slough of sloughs and you will love it.
That really does seem to be a thought behind Scotts' view of Grimdark. Like, what if there is a bigger picture, and its soo big that we just can't see it. Also just found you guys recently, but I read Darkness when I was 16. Followed the series ever since, and bar none it is the best in the grimdark genre, if nothing else. I usually don't like what I call "Colloseum" grimdark, but Scotts' take on grimdark is my absolutely favorite.
While I don't care for the term, I find Bakker embodies the original concept of 40k grimdark. They both could just as easily fall under horror as sci fi / fantasy.
@@thefantasynuttwork Yeah it's always been a massive red flag for me when the first book in a series was the best, especially after recently finishing a series where that was very much the case.
I love the Unholy consult/The great ordeal, I see them as one really big book. The absolute balls that Bakker had to do multiple plotlines and payoffs that are completely unheard of in a fantasy series. The entire second half of the aspect emperor is something that I continually think about every day, even after a year of finishing the books.
Another great discussion. I couldnt help myself but grin all the time while listening to your theories. I cant wait to see your future reactions with what is coming
Pleasantly surprised this got made. Will listen later tonight. Thanks for keeping the torch burning for our boy Scotty. He deserves it. And especially for TJE--by far the best book he has ever written. Been reading Scott for 20 years and wondering where he's been... hopefully in the lab cooking up something vile and profound.
Thanks for another great chat, just finished this and it's my favorite so far. No weepers on the slog! Also no reading other authors on the slog (for me) till this series is finished...
Just started this book after finishing the prince of nothing trilogy over last month. These are really good. I gotta go back and re read it, there is just so much in the writing that is missed on the first read.
Does Bakker himself not do any interviews about his series? I can't find any of them on UA-cam, would be cool if he showed up in one of these discussions.
@@thefantasynuttwork this would be amazing. There's been a lot of renewed interest in his books over the past few years (in no small part due to the great videos by you guys and others). It would be great to hear from him again. Please keep us posted if you get anywhere!
Having a place named after both Golgatha (Calvary from the Bible) and Gorgoroth (the area in Mordor where both Barad-Dur and Mount Doom lies), should say something of Bakker’s thinking! Also the Yimaleti Mountain Range is clearly modeled on the shape of Norway. So as someone from Western Norway, I find the notion of Golgotterath as Eastern Norway/Oslo highly entertaining! 🤣
@@thefantasynuttwork Esmenet seems to be inspired by the real-life story Empress Theodora, wife of the 6th Century Byzantine Emperor Justinian I. She was born the daughter of a Circus Animal Tamer, and met Justinian working as an actress (which was considered equal to being a “lady of the Night”. Justinian had to actually change the law for him to be able to marry her, as it was forbidden for people of noble or senator rank to marry actresses. Twice did she save Justinian’s Bacon: First she forced him to not run away from the Nice Rebellion (Supporters of the Blue and the Green Horse Race Teams turned political hooligans), stand his ground and brutally crush it. Second: She essentially run the Empire while Justinian was sick and nearly died from the eponymous Justinian Plague (which according to one view, killed up to 40% of the inhabitants of Constantinople and a quarter of the population of the Eastern Mediterranean!). Theodora and Justinian is also the inspiration for GGK’s “Sarantine Duology”!
@@thefantasynuttwork To give a measure of Justinian’s wealth and power: Most Western Catholic cathedrals took between 100-300 years to complete (Notre Dame in Paris took over 180 years and Sagrada Familia in Barcelona is STILL TODAY not finished after over 140 years), whole generations went by before they were finished. Justinian had the Hagia Sofia, long the largest cathedral in all of Christendom, built within 6 years! I visited Hagia Sofia back in 2015, and I was awestruck by it! And on the mosaics of that cathedral, Justinian and Theodora is depicted as the very model for all future Byzantine Emperors and Empresses! Not bad for a provincial farm boy/army brat and his old lady!
@@thefantasynuttwork Also, the human name for the Nonmen, "Oserukki" ("Not Us"), seems eerily similar to an anagram of "er ikke oss" (standard bokmål Norwegian: Are not us). "Er'u" is also a common contraction in some Dialects/Sosiolects of East Oslo for "er du" ("are you"), so it also sound as "Oss er'u ikke!" (Us you are not!).
Amazing content guys. Really loved it. I feel this book is not up there with PON series and was a bit of a drag. Sorwell is probably inspired by historical events, vlad held captive by the ottomans , Looking foward to next book.
Very Nice! Great Success! - i like the detail that the captain is ainoni, the nation known for very flamboyant men. That contrast of him n his nationality/race with character/disposition was pleasant 💯 Surprisingly I’ve also become allot more endeared towards Akka in this book, whilst I became more unsympathetic towards Esmi. Next thing ya know, I’m on the Kellhus Express with Cnaiur being enemy of the state! (If that weeper ever shows up)
I think I felt a lot of sympathy for Akka as well. He’s completely broken it seems, a shell of where he was in the very first book. Esmi gets more and more interesting as this goes
@@thefantasynuttwork oh most definitely. The world has left him shattered, what he will bring further along in to the story I can’t tell. I’m just here for Super Saiyan Mimara if anything. And yes, I most 💯 percent in agreement that Esmi is as interesting as ever and will further get that Bakkon grease to shine. I just got that visceral disdain for royalty 😤 Can’t wait to cont :))
So finished and was able to listen. I read Cleric's sermon on Darkness multiple times. The general impression I got was that PoN was moving forward. Aspect -Emperor is moving back in time to the source of the Apocalypse. My question is does Kellhus believe his own propaganda about being a Prophet. He is essentially fulfilling his own Prophecy about the Second Apocalypse and may not be as awake as he seems to think. The kids are creepy. Was getting some Cassandra vibes from Inrilatus. Bakker loves playing with names but at doesn't hide them too much. Inrilatus - Inri (Sejenus) the Latter Prophet? On an unrelated note, I noticed Erickson's blurb got longer and Esslemont is getting in on it too as he also made the cover.
Hey Jimmy, Pretty new to your channel and have been enjoying your content. Our reading tastes are identical, haha. Thanks for what you do. Btw, Mike, over at Mike's Books, and I are doing a chat on Wednesday for A Game of Thrones. Wondering if you'd like to join us. Let me know! Best, Jordan (iWizard)
The biggest disappointment for me is the character of Maithamet. In the first books he's this mysterious super charismatic figure (so the seeds get planted in the reader). And near the end of the last book Maithamet is travelling to the Holy War (the seed sprouts). And Khellus is the other charismatic figure who steels the skirts from M.. So, as the narrative is moving toward, I was expecting a great battle of the wits. But nothing happens. And in the Judging Eye M is a cardboard cutout hanging around in the background. A reviewer on Good Reads does mention this cardboard cutout thing, where a once fully fleshed character gets reduced to a mere prop. Bakker is a genius but even his genius couldn't stretch that far as my human imagination builds up to.
So am impatient... Been listening to Steve's podcasts on Darkness and about 200 pages in to this one so haven't listened yet and this might be addressed. So it has been hypothesized that Henry VIII had some type of venereal disease which caused his wives to be infertile. Could something similar have happened with Esmenet with her 'encounter' in Darkness? Alternately Kelhus and his line might be a Humperdoo for those who have read Peeacher.
@@thefantasynuttwork Which is why Humperdoo came to mind as their abilities seem to be genetic as well as trained. And if you have not read Preacher, you really need to. Thanks
MORE BAKKER CONTENT!
More coming 😎
Sup Jimmy! Just finished The Judging Eye today (first read). The imagery described when the Skin Eaters are inside Cil-Aujas, and the tension Bakker built up over those first 40 or so pages before things go bad is UNREAL. It was like the Mine's of Moria on crack. Can't wait to get into the White-Luck Warrior and return to the SLOG OF SLOGS!
WLW is crazy
Great discussion by you three! Thanks for always putting out great content Jimmy...I think for me The Judging Eye holds this weird place in that it's my least favorite book in The Second Apocalypse series while simultaneously being one of the best fantasy books I have ever read. Looking forward to your future discussions and thank you for taking the time to do them
I appreciate you tuning in and giving some input dude!
I agree with you, it is my least favorite of the Aspect Emperor series, but the entire journey of the Skin Eaters in C'il Aujus is by itself one of the best fantasy sequences put to ink.
Judging eye like The Darkness that comes before is "hurt" by the fact that it is mostly set-up and introduction to concepts and characters that the other 3 books will explore.
Amazing group discussion again. Great hosting job. Love everyone’s unique POV’s and insights.
Biggest WTF for me on this book was that the Gods are actually real, and have agency.
The Judging Eye is my favorite, but only due to the “journey beginning” feel. I love the atmosphere. TWLW and TGO / TUC are more epic to be sure, but I revisit this one the most.
Thanks my dude!
the gods and the metaphysics of these books are some of my favorite parts of it.
All of the chapters dealing with Yatwher and the gods are amazing, and make the gods feel truly like parts of the world.
In other fantasy stories you sometimes ask "why do the people worship these gods?" and in this series you get your answer, the gods hold immense power, but they are still limited to the rules of the Outside/Inside.
Satma Nanaferi is one of my favorite characters in these books, her chapters and actions are disgusting and weird in the "holeyest" way possible.
I love these discussions, The aspect Emperor series, goes a lot deeper and darker than the Prince of Nothing.
The judging eye is a great book, and the last 100 or so pages are some of the best fantasy action in the genre, with only a few scenes in the latter books beating it for me.
While I really like this book, this is probably my least favorite in the AE series, not because it's bad, but because the other 3 books and especially The Great Ordeal and The Unholy Consult have some truly harrowing events and character arcs.
And the best use of "subverting expectations" i have seen in a literary work.
One thing to pay attention to in the future books is the contrast of the journey of the Skin Eaters and The Great Ordeal.
This series also gets really deep into the Gods and "divinity", and the metaphysics of this world are extremely unique, some of my favorite scenes in the AE series are all about the relationship between "Divinity","truth", "Damnation" and "Salvation".
After finishing the AE series i started re-reading the entire saga, and the ammount of things that were foreshadowed in the first trilogy that are vital to the entire story are astounding.
The prologue and first Kellhus chapters in Darkness have a completely different feeling and meaning after you reach the end of the series.
This series as ruined 99% of fantasy fiction for me, and i hope Bakker manages to publish The No God series.
Get ready for Bakkers wild ride, there are no seatbelts on it and there is no escape from it.
This is the slough of sloughs and you will love it.
Great comment
That really does seem to be a thought behind Scotts' view of Grimdark. Like, what if there is a bigger picture, and its soo big that we just can't see it. Also just found you guys recently, but I read Darkness when I was 16. Followed the series ever since, and bar none it is the best in the grimdark genre, if nothing else. I usually don't like what I call "Colloseum" grimdark, but Scotts' take on grimdark is my absolutely favorite.
He's supremely talented
While I don't care for the term, I find Bakker embodies the original concept of 40k grimdark. They both could just as easily fall under horror as sci fi / fantasy.
Fantasy
Tolkien
G.R.R.M
Baker
Sci-fi
Dune
Hyperion
Any suggestions what to read next . For me nothing comes close to Dune, Hyperion and PON.
I'm with Mark, Unholy Consult for the win 🖤
This is good news
@@thefantasynuttwork Yeah it's always been a massive red flag for me when the first book in a series was the best, especially after recently finishing a series where that was very much the case.
I love the Unholy consult/The great ordeal, I see them as one really big book.
The absolute balls that Bakker had to do multiple plotlines and payoffs that are completely unheard of in a fantasy series.
The entire second half of the aspect emperor is something that I continually think about every day, even after a year of finishing the books.
@@qaztim11 that exactly. These two books haunt my thinking for years now
Another great discussion. I couldnt help myself but grin all the time while listening to your theories. I cant wait to see your future reactions with what is coming
Already 100 pages into WLW!
@@thefantasynuttwork "the world overmatches us Proyas". I hope you will enjoy these last three books.
I see Slowly Red, I subscribe and like. Great discussion. Look forward to the others on my favorite series of all time.
Appreciate it, Slowly Red is the man!
Pleasantly surprised this got made. Will listen later tonight. Thanks for keeping the torch burning for our boy Scotty. He deserves it. And especially for TJE--by far the best book he has ever written. Been reading Scott for 20 years and wondering where he's been... hopefully in the lab cooking up something vile and profound.
He's a master!
Great discussion :) I can never choose a favourite from the series, each book has such incredible moments
Love Bakker!
Thanks for another great chat, just finished this and it's my favorite so far. No weepers on the slog! Also no reading other authors on the slog (for me) till this series is finished...
I’m glad you enjoyed the chat and the book!
Great discussion, will watch the next one
Appreciate it!
Just started this book after finishing the prince of nothing trilogy over last month. These are really good. I gotta go back and re read it, there is just so much in the writing that is missed on the first read.
Great discussion, thanks!
Thanks for the information and questions in chat!
The Yatwer / White-luck Warrior stuff makes a lot more sense on my re-read so far, to an extent 😅
I'm very late, but this was perfect after finishing the book! Thanks ❤
Jimmy.. reread when?😊
@@chadia25 I hope soon!
Does Bakker himself not do any interviews about his series? I can't find any of them on UA-cam, would be cool if he showed up in one of these discussions.
No, he is a damn hermit.
I'll attempt!
He’s done interviews in the past, just not any recent ones
@@thefantasynuttwork this would be amazing. There's been a lot of renewed interest in his books over the past few years (in no small part due to the great videos by you guys and others). It would be great to hear from him again. Please keep us posted if you get anywhere!
No sobbers on the slog!
NO WEEPERS!!!
I'm half way through White-Luck already, Sarl is completely unhinged
Having a place named after both Golgatha (Calvary from the Bible) and Gorgoroth (the area in Mordor where both Barad-Dur and Mount Doom lies), should say something of Bakker’s thinking!
Also the Yimaleti Mountain Range is clearly modeled on the shape of Norway. So as someone from Western Norway, I find the notion of Golgotterath as Eastern Norway/Oslo highly entertaining! 🤣
That's super dope!
@@thefantasynuttwork Esmenet seems to be inspired by the real-life story Empress Theodora, wife of the 6th Century Byzantine Emperor Justinian I. She was born the daughter of a Circus Animal Tamer, and met Justinian working as an actress (which was considered equal to being a “lady of the Night”. Justinian had to actually change the law for him to be able to marry her, as it was forbidden for people of noble or senator rank to marry actresses. Twice did she save Justinian’s Bacon: First she forced him to not run away from the Nice Rebellion (Supporters of the Blue and the Green Horse Race Teams turned political hooligans), stand his ground and brutally crush it. Second: She essentially run the Empire while Justinian was sick and nearly died from the eponymous Justinian Plague (which according to one view, killed up to 40% of the inhabitants of Constantinople and a quarter of the population of the Eastern Mediterranean!). Theodora and Justinian is also the inspiration for GGK’s “Sarantine Duology”!
@@MacScarfield wow I didn't know
@@thefantasynuttwork To give a measure of Justinian’s wealth and power: Most Western Catholic cathedrals took between 100-300 years to complete (Notre Dame in Paris took over 180 years and Sagrada Familia in Barcelona is STILL TODAY not finished after over 140 years), whole generations went by before they were finished. Justinian had the Hagia Sofia, long the largest cathedral in all of Christendom, built within 6 years!
I visited Hagia Sofia back in 2015, and I was awestruck by it! And on the mosaics of that cathedral, Justinian and Theodora is depicted as the very model for all future Byzantine Emperors and Empresses! Not bad for a provincial farm boy/army brat and his old lady!
@@thefantasynuttwork Also, the human name for the Nonmen, "Oserukki" ("Not Us"), seems eerily similar to an anagram of "er ikke oss" (standard bokmål Norwegian: Are not us). "Er'u" is also a common contraction in some Dialects/Sosiolects of East Oslo for "er du" ("are you"), so it also sound as "Oss er'u ikke!" (Us you are not!).
Amazing content guys. Really loved it. I feel this book is not up there with PON series and was a bit of a drag. Sorwell is probably inspired by historical events, vlad held captive by the ottomans , Looking foward to next book.
Thank you!!
Earwa is at the very top of Fantasy worlds I wouldn't wanna visit cuz of the sranc alone
For sure
Very Nice! Great Success! - i like the detail that the captain is ainoni, the nation known for very flamboyant men. That contrast of him n his nationality/race with character/disposition was pleasant 💯
Surprisingly I’ve also become allot more endeared towards Akka in this book, whilst I became more unsympathetic towards Esmi. Next thing ya know, I’m on the Kellhus Express with Cnaiur being enemy of the state! (If that weeper ever shows up)
I think I felt a lot of sympathy for Akka as well. He’s completely broken it seems, a shell of where he was in the very first book. Esmi gets more and more interesting as this goes
@@thefantasynuttwork oh most definitely. The world has left him shattered, what he will bring further along in to the story I can’t tell. I’m just here for Super Saiyan Mimara if anything. And yes, I most 💯 percent in agreement that Esmi is as interesting as ever and will further get that Bakkon grease to shine. I just got that visceral disdain for royalty 😤
Can’t wait to cont :))
@@feverfiori5887 DOWN WITH THE ROYALTY!
So finished and was able to listen.
I read Cleric's sermon on Darkness multiple times.
The general impression I got was that PoN was moving forward. Aspect -Emperor is moving back in time to the source of the Apocalypse.
My question is does Kellhus believe his own propaganda about being a Prophet. He is essentially fulfilling his own Prophecy about the Second Apocalypse and may not be as awake as he seems to think.
The kids are creepy. Was getting some Cassandra vibes from Inrilatus. Bakker loves playing with names but at doesn't hide them too much. Inrilatus - Inri (Sejenus) the Latter Prophet?
On an unrelated note, I noticed Erickson's blurb got longer and Esslemont is getting in on it too as he also made the cover.
Yeah I saw those blurbs!
@@thefantasynuttwork That tense thing with Mimara is driving me nuts in white luck.
And wondering where Maithonet falls on the crazy scale.
It’s the slog of slog, boys! Skinnies, ey!
THE COFFERS
Hey Jimmy,
Pretty new to your channel and have been enjoying your content. Our reading tastes are identical, haha. Thanks for what you do. Btw, Mike, over at Mike's Books, and I are doing a chat on Wednesday for A Game of Thrones. Wondering if you'd like to join us.
Let me know!
Best, Jordan (iWizard)
The biggest disappointment for me is the character of Maithamet. In the first books he's this mysterious super charismatic figure (so the seeds get planted in the reader). And near the end of the last book Maithamet is travelling to the Holy War (the seed sprouts). And Khellus is the other charismatic figure who steels the skirts from M.. So, as the narrative is moving toward, I was expecting a great battle of the wits. But nothing happens. And in the Judging Eye M is a cardboard cutout hanging around in the background. A reviewer on Good Reads does mention this cardboard cutout thing, where a once fully fleshed character gets reduced to a mere prop. Bakker is a genius but even his genius couldn't stretch that far as my human imagination builds up to.
I was sad to see him go
The index at the back of each book in TAE have some extra info in them
Okay cool! I'll check it out
So am impatient... Been listening to Steve's podcasts on Darkness and about 200 pages in to this one so haven't listened yet and this might be addressed.
So it has been hypothesized that Henry VIII had some type of venereal disease which caused his wives to be infertile. Could something similar have happened with Esmenet with her 'encounter' in Darkness? Alternately Kelhus and his line might be a Humperdoo for those who have read Peeacher.
I think it has more to do with the Dunyain
@@thefantasynuttwork Which is why Humperdoo came to mind as their abilities seem to be genetic as well as trained. And if you have not read Preacher, you really need to.
Thanks
I also get real D&D vibes from the Aspect-Emperor instead of LOTR, and more Warhammer 40k than Dune vibes...
That's fair
Also, I call her me-MARAH.
In my head I always say my-mara lol
@@thefantasynuttworkMIM-ara
Great discussion! Thank you.
Thanks for watching!