Ill just try to rake their blinds.. But i first have to know if its a nit pf or postf.. or both! Id just avoid élite pro nit players unless i have nuts.. They seem to avoid me without nuts so i avoid to play them when they want action in a hand, As they rarely want action, they wont take m'y bbs or 3bet bluff me too much So i m not afraid of being robbed by them .. Ppl have missconception in understanding nit players... Just avoid best of them, Rake , bbs are killing them,... They r liké some parasites, They will die if a fish do not feed them.. AT a point i Saw good hu pro players refusing to play élite nit in hu... It made me think a lot! 🤔
@@sluggy6074 The river shove is a bad move unless you have a strong hand. If they call flop then turn, they may be sitting on a monster "trapping". DO NOT PAY THEM OFF!!
Would be great to do a similar video on Maniacs and Calling stations. I’ve long thought that optimal strategy would be extreme against someone making big mistakes on every street. What would be really AMAZING would be if you could program (and maybe exchange) player avatars. So, instead of you node locking on one street, but then having the computer assume perfect play on following streets, if the computer assumed a certain play style on all subsequent streets. Holy shit! That would be amazing. Even if the Avatar wasn’t perfect (I would never be) it would be WAY closer than the current assumptions. This would be worth paying double for the thing, IMO. It would be vastly more accurate AND save SO MUCH TIME.
Most of the people complaining about these player types don't have the patience to win small pots off of them, bluff them on the turn or river when it's clear they have a hand they're not folding or keep paying them off when it's obvious they have the nuts.
well in high rake small stakes live games, winning many small pots means you end up paying a lot of rake which cuts down the profitability significantly. Generally the biggest long term winners in these games are the ones who build big pots with a strong range so that you win fewer, but larger pots. This way less of potential winnings go toward rake. These players hate the nits because it forces them to change to less profitable strategy to play against them.
Agree with you, one of the biggest leaks people have is when they have a “good” hand vs a nit and then get raised on a turn/river and feel they’re priced in to calling off. But the nit has no bluffs in that situation and it’s always a punt. Most people are fully aggressive or passive. The way to beat a nit is to be aggressive, until they show you they have something then you just HAVE to fold.
@@thepokerparadoxI do have one argument against the first one and that is. It is mega frustrating to be card dead finally make a hand and then have to fold.
Enjoyed. Suggestion: can we run a few scenarios where we open a slightly tighter then GTO open range (from various positions) against opponents who simply call against us in position with significantly wider then GTO recommends but also they never fail to 3bet AQs - 1010+? Rather specific request, but I think this is pretty standard play from a large percentage of live player pool.
Had this opponet yesterday and couldn't find the fold. I Raise pocket 10s UTG to 10, UTG+1 calls OMC, everyone else folds. Flop kk10, I bet 6, calls, turn 9, I bet 25 calls, River 4 (complete backdoor flush), I bet 65, he shoves all in I call and shows pocket kings lol.
Easy to get carried away, especially against these types of players. If they are willing to shove then they aren't bluffing, you have most of the 10s so what else could he have? I had a hand against a super tight older guy, I had AJ of spades on the button and this guy was in the cutoff. He limped and I raised and he was the only caller. Flop came AQJ and two pair seemed pretty good, he checked, I bet and he check raises me 3x pot. I'm scratching my head wondering what hand limps and then check raises on this board. I jam on him and he snap calls and flips over k10o.
Depends how much was the shove. Not saying I would or could ever get away from that hand but what hand do you beat that an OMC plays this way? He’s not floating with back door flush on the flop, AK/KQ would raise before for value/protection. He never has Aces, and if he somehow did would not overplay it like this. He’s not calling 2 streets with 99, he would raise 66 on turn if he somehow had it (but unlikely). He’s also not turning anything into a bluff. Maybe a QJ suited for an open ender that rivers a straight but this type won’t shove like this when flush completes and with a paired board. So that leaves only hands like KK or K10 that aren’t afraid of anything, or a K9 suited that got there on river that wasn’t sure he was ahead till the river
@@yungtube7848it's absolutely not an easy fold. It's actually a terrible fold, when they can jam a number of weaker hands for value Coolers are just coolers
I enjoyed this a lot - I've often wondered how much of the visual complexity of solver strategies depends on opponents also playing such complex strategies. In rock paper scissors, as soon as your opponent deviates even a little from balanced play, it becomes mandatory to stop playing a mixed strategy. The ideas in this video resonate with me, and there are several players like this in the tournaments that I play. I enjoy thinking about maximizing EV against them. Thanks! Stay rad.
alot of those Joe's I meet, are better than the one in this video. but they are still bad. You did not mention preflop sizing. The joe's I meet they go big with strong hands. 3x is the minimum, if not more. They go big, and they weirdly enough don't want to be called.. They are going to make it very expensive for us to draw them out. How do you think our response changes against the different Sizings?. I feel less inclined to jam on him, because of the postflop mistakes..
How does rake play into all this especially at low stakes live games where its usually pretty high. Generally you want to play fewer, but larger pots vs the loose players so that you end up playing less rake. If you are playing a style to battle the nits in the small pots, you end up paying a ton of extra rake, which might just destroy the edge that you have against them. Thats why we hate the nits, not that we cant adjust, but because it forces you to play a style where the house wins more and we win less.
In my experience these super tight old dudes that raise a range that isn't just QQ+ tend to way over cbet flop. On the turn they typically reveal their hand strength.
o, oh, oh .... Matt.... Matt, Matt, I thought I heard that wrong... Just be glad your name isn't Mike. Cz, then if you marry a girl named Hertz, well, let's just say don't name your kids Mike, or Mac, or Mei or Mika...
Does the concept also apply to 3b pot? Many rec player just 4b AA KK AK and call wide (include many off suit broadway like KJo, AJo, QJo, etc). In this case, high board may not be as good for us as when vs gto 3b calling range. However, since their XR range vs cbet is much lower than gto, we may still cbet a lot.
Yes, the concept of adjusting your strategy based on your opponent's tendencies definitely applies to 3-bet pots as well, especially against recreational players who have different 4-betting and calling ranges compared to GTO (Game Theory Optimal) strategies. Against recreational players who tend to 4-bet only with very strong hands like AA, KK, and AK, and call 3-bets with a wider range that includes off-suit Broadway hands (such as KJo, AJo, QJo, etc.), the dynamics of the hand change significantly compared to facing a GTO 3-betting calling range. Here are a few key points to consider: C-betting Frequency: Recreational players often have a narrower range for check-raising against a continuation bet (c-bet) compared to GTO ranges. This means you can generally c-bet more often, even on high boards that might hit their calling range somewhat, because they are less likely to check-raise as a bluff or semi-bluff. Hand Reading: Understanding their tendencies allows you to better narrow down their range post-flop. Recreational players often show a reluctance to fold strong top pairs or good draws, which you can exploit by sizing your bets accordingly when you have strong hands or bluffs. Adjusting Post-flop: Since their post-flop play may be more straightforward (less floating with weak hands, less bluffing), you can adjust by value-betting thinly against their calling ranges and avoiding thin value bets when they show strength. In summary, while the high board may not always be ideal against a recreational player's wider calling range, their tendency to have a weaker check-raising range allows you to c-bet more frequently. Understanding these differences helps you exploit their tendencies effectively in 3-bet pots. If you're interested in discussing more about poker strategy and connecting with others who are serious about the game, feel free to join our Discord group discord.com/invite/Y5eXgeM8. It's a great place to share insights, ask questions, and improve your poker game together. Looking forward to seeing you there!
What's your Cbet strategy vs Nits while in position? 🤔
Bet until I get raised then FOLD!
100%
Ill just try to rake their blinds..
But i first have to know if its a nit pf or postf.. or both!
Id just avoid élite pro nit players unless i have nuts..
They seem to avoid me without nuts so i avoid to play them when they want action in a hand,
As they rarely want action, they wont take m'y bbs or 3bet bluff me too much
So i m not afraid of being robbed by them ..
Ppl have missconception in understanding nit players...
Just avoid best of them,
Rake , bbs are killing them,...
They r liké some parasites,
They will die if a fish do not feed them..
AT a point i Saw good hu pro players refusing to play élite nit in hu... It made me think a lot!
🤔
Bet flop
Bet turn
River "Im ready to go home" All in
@@sluggy6074 The river shove is a bad move unless you have a strong hand. If they call flop then turn, they may be sitting on a monster "trapping". DO NOT PAY THEM OFF!!
Thanks for this video! I recommend using larger effective stack sizes in your examples since that is what most people see in cash games.
Top notch video once again, thank you guys.
Would be great to do a similar video on Maniacs and Calling stations.
I’ve long thought that optimal strategy would be extreme against someone making big mistakes on every street.
What would be really AMAZING would be if you could program (and maybe exchange) player avatars.
So, instead of you node locking on one street, but then having the computer assume perfect play on following streets, if the computer assumed a certain play style on all subsequent streets.
Holy shit! That would be amazing.
Even if the Avatar wasn’t perfect (I would never be) it would be WAY closer than the current assumptions.
This would be worth paying double for the thing, IMO.
It would be vastly more accurate AND save SO MUCH TIME.
I love the OMC pic in the intro 😂.
excellent job my friend...really opened my eyes there!!
Most of the people complaining about these player types don't have the patience to win small pots off of them, bluff them on the turn or river when it's clear they have a hand they're not folding or keep paying them off when it's obvious they have the nuts.
well in high rake small stakes live games, winning many small pots means you end up paying a lot of rake which cuts down the profitability significantly. Generally the biggest long term winners in these games are the ones who build big pots with a strong range so that you win fewer, but larger pots. This way less of potential winnings go toward rake. These players hate the nits because it forces them to change to less profitable strategy to play against them.
Agree with you, one of the biggest leaks people have is when they have a “good” hand vs a nit and then get raised on a turn/river and feel they’re priced in to calling off. But the nit has no bluffs in that situation and it’s always a punt.
Most people are fully aggressive or passive. The way to beat a nit is to be aggressive, until they show you they have something then you just HAVE to fold.
@@thepokerparadoxI do have one argument against the first one and that is.
It is mega frustrating to be card dead finally make a hand and then have to fold.
@@kevinjohnson4498that’s why I play in home games with no or smaller rake. Casinos suck
@@kevinjohnson4498 Players shorting high rake games is more of a problem IMO than those who don't give any action in general.
Enjoyed. Suggestion: can we run a few scenarios where we open a slightly tighter then GTO open range (from various positions) against opponents who simply call against us in position with significantly wider then GTO recommends but also they never fail to 3bet AQs - 1010+? Rather specific request, but I think this is pretty standard play from a large percentage of live player pool.
Maybe also comparing, 100bb vs 40bb vs 20bb spots?
Had this opponet yesterday and couldn't find the fold. I Raise pocket 10s UTG to 10, UTG+1 calls OMC, everyone else folds. Flop kk10, I bet 6, calls, turn 9, I bet 25 calls, River 4 (complete backdoor flush), I bet 65, he shoves all in I call and shows pocket kings lol.
I dont think this is ever a fold, come on. Coolers are just coolers.
Easy to get carried away, especially against these types of players. If they are willing to shove then they aren't bluffing, you have most of the 10s so what else could he have?
I had a hand against a super tight older guy, I had AJ of spades on the button and this guy was in the cutoff. He limped and I raised and he was the only caller. Flop came AQJ and two pair seemed pretty good, he checked, I bet and he check raises me 3x pot. I'm scratching my head wondering what hand limps and then check raises on this board. I jam on him and he snap calls and flips over k10o.
Depends how much was the shove. Not saying I would or could ever get away from that hand but what hand do you beat that an OMC plays this way? He’s not floating with back door flush on the flop, AK/KQ would raise before for value/protection. He never has Aces, and if he somehow did would not overplay it like this. He’s not calling 2 streets with 99, he would raise 66 on turn if he somehow had it (but unlikely). He’s also not turning anything into a bluff.
Maybe a QJ suited for an open ender that rivers a straight but this type won’t shove like this when flush completes and with a paired board. So that leaves only hands like KK or K10 that aren’t afraid of anything, or a K9 suited that got there on river that wasn’t sure he was ahead till the river
@@dietasse24why not? Its a good hand but obviously not the nuts with two kings on the board, against a nit player its an easy fold after he shoves
@@yungtube7848it's absolutely not an easy fold. It's actually a terrible fold, when they can jam a number of weaker hands for value
Coolers are just coolers
I enjoyed this a lot - I've often wondered how much of the visual complexity of solver strategies depends on opponents also playing such complex strategies. In rock paper scissors, as soon as your opponent deviates even a little from balanced play, it becomes mandatory to stop playing a mixed strategy. The ideas in this video resonate with me, and there are several players like this in the tournaments that I play. I enjoy thinking about maximizing EV against them. Thanks! Stay rad.
Joe Theory Optimal
It's Joever oldman!
@@Villerkutchen JTO buy his book
alot of those Joe's I meet, are better than the one in this video. but they are still bad. You did not mention preflop sizing. The joe's I meet they go big with strong hands. 3x is the minimum, if not more. They go big, and they weirdly enough don't want to be called.. They are going to make it very expensive for us to draw them out.
How do you think our response changes against the different Sizings?. I feel less inclined to jam on him, because of the postflop mistakes..
How does rake play into all this especially at low stakes live games where its usually pretty high. Generally you want to play fewer, but larger pots vs the loose players so that you end up playing less rake. If you are playing a style to battle the nits in the small pots, you end up paying a ton of extra rake, which might just destroy the edge that you have against them.
Thats why we hate the nits, not that we cant adjust, but because it forces you to play a style where the house wins more and we win less.
I overfold but I'm not a Nit. The meta at low stakes is so passive that you can manage +6bb/100 by never hero calling on big pots.
Over-folding is the easiest low stakes exploit, but many players have too much ego to employ it
@@RicardoMartinez-oy9dg Yep, overaggresion + overfolding vs aggression is the easiest recipe to beat micros/low stakes.
Fucking nit 🤣 i Play Micro too, an now im at 30bb/100h Zoom only because i stoped playing Like a nit 3 months ago,
After 25min i teached a friend with a winrate of 10bb/100h how to reach 37bb/100h only because He stoped to BE a nit 🤣
6bb/100h ist Not even enoth to BE profitable at GG Poker,i Pay from Germany around 10BB/100h rake
In my experience these super tight old dudes that raise a range that isn't just QQ+ tend to way over cbet flop. On the turn they typically reveal their hand strength.
At 10:10, when you say our win rate goes from 50 bb/100 to 100 bb/100, that measurement is specifically when Joe is in the BB?
When the table is tight be a little more aggressive open wider when the table is splashy tighten up a touch
I have no trouble berating the nits, now let’s learn how to beat the nits!
These illustrations and thumbnails are really good. Are they AI gen?
If I were to play vs a computer nit. Slow roll them when you’re strong. Ez money.
How did you made those preflop calculation ?
At 85 years of age - I don't think Joe gives a shit.
It’s “knits” as in a person who knits.
"Every hand is a consequence of our strategy" - Joe
I take issue with your characterization of Joe.
I am Joe. I say this proudly.
Nits are the easiest ppl to win money off of. It just takes a long time because they fold a lot. It is a grind
In the later phases of a tournament they are the ideal player type to have at your table.
spoiler they fold coolers or u can´t
Just keep folding when facing the nits
o, oh, oh .... Matt.... Matt, Matt, I thought I heard that wrong... Just be glad your name isn't Mike. Cz, then if you marry a girl named Hertz, well, let's just say don't name your kids Mike, or Mac, or Mei or Mika...
Everyone knows AK is a drawring hand...
You cant beat a nit when your nit yourself ;)
Joe is a president of usa ?
Whats rhe point of studying 50bb 😂 who tbe fvk plays 50bbs useless info guysus3100bb
Does the concept also apply to 3b pot? Many rec player just 4b AA KK AK and call wide (include many off suit broadway like KJo, AJo, QJo, etc). In this case, high board may not be as good for us as when vs gto 3b calling range. However, since their XR range vs cbet is much lower than gto, we may still cbet a lot.
Yes, the concept of adjusting your strategy based on your opponent's tendencies definitely applies to 3-bet pots as well, especially against recreational players who have different 4-betting and calling ranges compared to GTO (Game Theory Optimal) strategies.
Against recreational players who tend to 4-bet only with very strong hands like AA, KK, and AK, and call 3-bets with a wider range that includes off-suit Broadway hands (such as KJo, AJo, QJo, etc.), the dynamics of the hand change significantly compared to facing a GTO 3-betting calling range.
Here are a few key points to consider:
C-betting Frequency: Recreational players often have a narrower range for check-raising against a continuation bet (c-bet) compared to GTO ranges. This means you can generally c-bet more often, even on high boards that might hit their calling range somewhat, because they are less likely to check-raise as a bluff or semi-bluff.
Hand Reading: Understanding their tendencies allows you to better narrow down their range post-flop. Recreational players often show a reluctance to fold strong top pairs or good draws, which you can exploit by sizing your bets accordingly when you have strong hands or bluffs.
Adjusting Post-flop: Since their post-flop play may be more straightforward (less floating with weak hands, less bluffing), you can adjust by value-betting thinly against their calling ranges and avoiding thin value bets when they show strength.
In summary, while the high board may not always be ideal against a recreational player's wider calling range, their tendency to have a weaker check-raising range allows you to c-bet more frequently. Understanding these differences helps you exploit their tendencies effectively in 3-bet pots.
If you're interested in discussing more about poker strategy and connecting with others who are serious about the game, feel free to join our Discord group discord.com/invite/Y5eXgeM8. It's a great place to share insights, ask questions, and improve your poker game together. Looking forward to seeing you there!
we love joe.. so easy ..
easy, just keep telling yourself that they are overfolding in every spot 🧲💰💵