I like how Tom made a reference to Ryan Metzler's review so we can compare two views of this game. The two reviews should give a pretty good idea if this is a game for you. This would not be a game for our group. For us, it does not matter who the designer is. We don't hash the pluses or minuses of a designer. That would be a waste of time. We'd rather spend that time enjoying games.
I saw this on kickstarter and got really excited looking at the cool boards and awesome theme! I couldn't wait to see how it played, so I read the rulebook, at first with enthusiasm, and by the end, sadness. I was impressed with the point generating engine but, for me, the theme and mechanisms did not work well together and that stopped me from backing it. Tom was very fair in his review by both acknowledging that it was a good game and by pointing people to a video by a reviewer who loved it. This viewer's judgement: "Tom's review......Excellent!" ;)
The two most important things haven't been discussed here: 1. Tom killed a Meeple with his hammer! 2. Did you see the "Shut the Door" sweetie in the end? :-)
With all respect to Tom the theme is kinda of clunky, but think about it this way. You have two guys working together as a research team. You have your programmer in a control pod at the surface. You also have your guy at the bottom of the ocean running the station. Because of how far down the sea lab is the programmer has to make specific decision of what he can build and send down to his partner (they are out in the middle of the ocean). The station takes time to get around in to show the passing of time while you research, thereby when you travel to a pod of a higher value (ie the bot you can build there is more useful) is a more expensive thing to research and costs more time. The submarines can be explained as like having a bigger fleet of researching subs over time (though it's agreeably stupid that they are basically "unusable"). The more robots you put out also fall under having more researching robots out thereby giving you more points towards your research. The 6 points for letters is saying your rewarded for covering multiple areas of research, whether it be harvesting octopods or gems, or having the room for more upgrades and time storage (don't have an explanation for time storage, but its one of those things that helps the player "play" the game). I love your work Tom and I know you're not a euro guy, but I think you might of had, either, a bad play of it, or didn't quite grasp the theme. No fault to you, I think the designer could have given a little, if not alot, more reason for his mechanics, but this was my best interpretation of it. I hope this was, if not helpful, at least any interesting thought. I want to stress that I in no means ever want to sound like a hate writer or a guy with something to prove. I just think this game has potential! (Famous last words!) Thanks for your reviews which I've always gone to for guidance in my gaming experiences! Hope to get a response from you Tom! Sincerely, Dominic Hernandez.
I think this is the review that truly shows where Tom lies on the thematic/strategic spectrum. I feel he's right there in the middle, but leans towards thematic. Sure, some would say he's pure thematic in that "if it doesn't look pretty, he won't like it," but I think that's a bit unfair. He's defended plenty of dry Euros from the attacks made by his cohorts and I appreciate that. Tom's been pretty critical of Feld in the past, but he does enjoy Bruges and will definitely give games a chance (even when he kind of knows he won't like it). Going into this overview of AquaSphere, I had an inkling as to how he'd react. I wasn't far off. I'm fine with him not liking it because, well, being a Feld fan, even I am not too keen on this title. ...AND I think Tom's amount of fairness given to reviews has only gone up over the years. I doubt in the future, he'll have another Vasco de Gama or Hawaii 'reaction' to a game because he understands who games are 'for' and who they are 'not for.' I think it's commendable for Tom to give a pretty bad review of AquaSphere, but still have the politeness to say that he's sure it's a good game...but for someone else. I think that's very fair. Thanks for playing, Tom. I know it was rough, but consider yourself much stronger now! :D
a little surprised. I've watched a number of videos where reviewers commented that this was the most thematic of Stefan Feld's games. Most them commented that it ranked near their list of favorite Feld games. Granted they are bigger Feld fans, but still. This review couldn't be more antithetical to the others. All that being said, i'm grateful for this review. Always interested in varying perspectives on games.
It's getting to the point where there are so many games coming out, that I don't have time to sit through bad game reviews. Tom, I trust your opinion. I want to hear you rave about a game that you genuinely love, so that I can give it a try. Perhaps you could save the negative reviews for a debate video with your buddies. That might be fun to watch, and allow for certain games that you don't like to get their fair share of the spot light.
Be careful. He isn't always right. Anyone else remember his glowing reviews for Giants and Dungeon Run? This is not to say he is a bad reviewer. This is just to say that everyone has different tastes and do not see things when playing games that other groups might :O)
Josh Smith Of course. I tend to like games that he likes, so his reviews are helpful to me. I do watch other reviews; especially for the same game if I'm interested.
The review videos are as much about the basic game play and components as they are Tom's opinions, so even if he doesn't like them, it's nice to see the game in some detail (if only to disagree and pick it up anyway). If you're just looking to buy whatever he likes, skip to the end.
***** With all the new games coming out (3-6 a week?), I guess I'm looking for a highlight reel. I'll stick to the top 10 lists. Like I said before, Tom is often the first or second stop in the research trail. I just don't have time to sift through 6-10 Dice Tower reviews a day. I don't know about you, but I have around 50 games in my collection, and probably have access to 3 times that through my gaming group. I'm enjoying this Renaissance of Games, but its growth is attracting a lot of imitation, and mediocrity. Ain't nobody got time for that. Well, Tom does.
Fair enough. I find myself ignoring about 60% of the DT's video reviews myself, simply because the theme/mechanics have to grab me before I spend my limited time on video watching. I am glad they do the volume that they do though, if only to keep the hidden gems from being overlooked through all the noise.
For what it's worth, Tom had the middle hex set up incorrectly. The 5 should be on bottom and 2 should be on top to start (so you can see what items replace at the end of each round -- nothing comes out at the end of the last round, which is why the 5 hex is blank). Ryan Meltzer set it up correctly in his review. In this fashion you score fewer KP points earlier in the game for subs/cards but reap the other advantages of getting them earlier, versus them having less utility later on but be worth more KP.
First time ever writing a comment on the Dice Tower videos (what ever that means). Full disclaimer, I like the game, don't love it. Only played it twice. Have about 425 games in my personal collection (the_eye on the geek) so my opinion at least have some... weight? "No theme at all" is the claim. (To often it seams) Not lacking in theme"? Not that the reviewer have a hard time understanding it? Is it because you cant fire at the other scientists or that there is no cards explaining every little thing that happens in the game? Come on. It takes longer to open some doors because the locking mechanism is more complicated, you get more knowledge when you put out subs because they travel to the surface with the data and crystals, you loose knowledge to octopods, because the area you control, where you're doing research on the crystals, is being shaken by the creatures, or they bite on the power cables or what ever your mind can make up. The reviewer is able to make up a 5 minute strained explanation on why some Marvel hero can beat another (spoiler: Bullseye don't, he escapes from the Hulk, that's a win ;)) Vasal don't have to like the game, not even NOT hate it. But to say that there is no theme in the box, simply, is not true. Parts of the job of a reviewer is to state opinion and other parts are to talk facts. And I think the lack of enjoyment that this reviewer found in the game might have colored his opinion of what is actually in the box. This is not an abstract, lacking in the theme department, with standard cubes and meeples and tired war theme. This is a heavy euro, with lots of interlocking game-mechanics, bound together by a new theme and supported by matching artwork and nice components. And with that, I wish you all a good morning. Enjoy your games for what they are people. And don't forget to use some of that imagination.
I'm not trying to start anything, just simply curious how stuff works at The Dice Tower. I think the seals of approval/excellency etc are a nice touch, and it wouldn't come as a surprise if game publishers started putting these on their boxes in future prints. What makes me curious is what happens if say Tom hates a game but another reviewer loves it. Can they give the game a seal, and if they can, how does this add up in the end? There are already quite a few reviewers putting out videos for Dice Tower so the seal seems a bit deterministic and generalizing. I love the idea of the seals, but maybe it would be more helpful if people could now hoe actually gave the game a seal, say something like "The Dice Tower Seal: Vasel Approved" or "The Dice Tower Seal: Metzler - Goes Into My Collection"? Just a thought :)
From what I can gather, Tom saw a gavel and thought "that would be fun", and that's about it. Can't blame him for that. A friend of mine has an old brass car horn, and if he did UA-cam reviews, I'm sure he'd incorporate it somehow. If the seal of approval thing really took off in the way you say (an endorsement featured on packaging) then I guess there would more likely be issues with reviewer preference. Given the way the Dice Tower appears to have been set up though, I can't see it being a problem. I would suggest: Tom does middle weight and Amerit**** games Ryan does heavy Euros Dan does party games Zee does games nobody has heard of The next edition packaging for TI3 is just a giant Dice Tower seal with Sam's face in it.
It's just a fun thing Tom is doing. None of the other reviewers are incorporating it. As Tom is the head of the Dice Tower, he alone has the say in the Dice Towers seal of approval. If a separate reviewer hated a game but Tom thought it was amazing, I'm sure Tom would make his own video with the seal of approval for clarification on HIS stance. That's the great thing about reviewers in conjunction with different types of games, people are going to feel differently about the experience. It's up to us as the consumers to identify with the reviewers we think are most like us to make the judgement on whether we would like the game or not.
Hmmm. I'm still gonna try it, but I am a little skeptical now. I hope you review La Isla, feld's other new game this year. I just got it last week from funagain games and I love it! I also think that the theme comes across in that one more than his others. It really felt like I was trapping animals. It's pretty light, but it works really well, and plays very fast. Looking forward to your review of that. I actually think you may like that one. :)
I cant wait for my copy.. Bec this is exactly my type of game... But i can understand how it's not for everyone. Having said that... I don't agree about the lack of theme in this game... Imo, it has plenty of it and the rest just requires a little imagination. Btw.. Hope Tom plays La Isla.. Am sure Zee picked it up based on his comment about it on the pre-Essen podcast. Cheers.
Thank goodness I get my euro reviews from Rahdo, and Amerithrash reviews from Tom. Each has their own opinions and criticisms of the other. They're like character foils.
I don't know, many of the eurogames I bought were explicit recommendations by Tom. Though I own a lot more of course, some of which Tom doesn't like at all. I don't view it as "Euro vs. Ameritrash", but more like if I value the reviewers opinion in general, if his points are valid and how the game looks like in the overview. Tom will like games which are 100% euro or 100% ameritrash if they are good (in his opinion), and that is way more valuable to me than somebody who's just into on side of the gaming isle.
It takes time do do things in real ife, so why does only being able to do a certain amount of actions based on your time tokens not make thematic sense? And planning future moves in advance is hard work???? I have to disagree with Tom, not liking the game is his choice, but his reasons were a little thin and I think there is a trend appearing when it comes to bashing Feld games, I hope this has not influenced his thoughts.
Hey Simon, I think I'm with you on the 'bashing' thought. Do you think a designer like Feld is more worthy of that sort of constant critiquing than someone like Uwe Rosenberg? Feld, though he loves inner-workings of good-synergizing mechanisms, at least has games that feel differently when played. Rosenberg just seems to rearrange farming tropes he's created to make new games. The bashing of Rosenberg seems light compared to Feld. On the flipside, Antoine Bauza seems to surprise everyone with wildly different designs for each new release. For me, he hit it big with 7 Wonders, but I'm not fond of everything since. On the one hand, I kind of like Feld and Rosenberg sticking to what they're famous for, but I also like Bauza's willingness to take a risk here and there for the sake of a fresh and exciting new game...even though HE'S more likely to strike out for me. What do you think?
I think his point was why does it take time to move left, but not right? I have to agree that the theme seems non-existant in this, which is a crying shame because I was genuinely excited when I saw how beautiful the game looked. Even Ryan's favourable review left me feeling I had sat through little more than a Technicolor algebra lecture. The inferred theme and aesthetics really could have made a good game great, but there's still a lot of great games from Essen this year, so it's no big deal.
TyphoidBryan I enjoy games by both Rosenberg and Feld and I agree with you Brian that Rosenberg seems almost immune to criticism, even though many of his games feel quite similar and follow a tried and tested formula...even the art in Rosenbergs games, though good, gives a heavy feeling of dejavu. Bauza seems to be exploring the many varities of mechanics available to him and probably puts theme first and foremost in his game design. If a designer plays to his strengths as Feld and Rosenberg does I dont think it should viewed as a weakness.
Tom I am a fan of yours but I am beginning to feel like some of your reviews don't do games justice. You complain this game is tight. Well that it was Feld is trying to do here. He has made this as a shift away from his typical point salad mold because that is his way of redefining himself with every game. Why don't you hate on Agricola more if you don't like this sort of game? That game really plays you too. Then you rant about how you didn't expect theme and that had no bearing on your overall rating when it clearly did. You say later that getting submarines out gets points and so does getting your bots and your subs out and then say it as though you are confused. That is not a mechanical problem, that is your problem with not being able to connect the theme. Why do you get points for these? Well Tom if you bothered reading reading the description you would see almost immediately that: "The AquaSphere is a research facility stationed deep below the ocean's surface, and your skilled team - consisting of an engineer, a scientist, reprogrammable bots and exploratory submarines - is trying to gather as much data as possible." So the more subs and bots you have working the more data you would be collecting right? SHEEESH!! Then to cap off all this you whine about the theme being completely gone at the end!!! All of this rant leaves you with zero credibility in my eyes. You also complain that a person can do really well by having an overall area control. Well wouldn't the other players use their brains and try and stop that from happening (after the first play anyway which really doesn't count as my group always jokes)? To be honest a buddy of mine and I were talking about you the other day and how we are thankful you brought us into the hobby further when we were but novices in gaming. We were also thankful that we don't listen to your reviews any more because of the amount of flops we have both purchased over the last 4 years that you have talked up (in my case just some examples are Giants, Summoner Wars and who can forget your love for Dungeon Run perhaps the biggest regret I've had, as the game was completely broken and you failed to even notice that). Still I am greatful that you led me to get Exodus Proxima Centauri which is indeed an excellent game. Anyhow, I know this seems harsh but I think you need to take a step back a little more and play your games more that you are reviewing. I, like many others are glad you make these videos and I often watch many of them. I just think you are trying to churn out too many reviews now as you feel obliged because of your Kickstarter. We all know how hard you work but I think you would benefit from being more considered like Joel Eddie is. You would gain more credibility that way. I hope this helps you in the future. I too often used to shoot my mouth off when I didn't enjoy a game. Now I keep quiet until I know why that is. I really don't like Terra Mystica for instance and I couldn't completely put my finger on it until about 5 plays and I did this because my gaming group loves it and because I wanted to tell them why I didn't enjoy it when they asked me (beforehand I would say I was unsure about it (basically I don't like the restrictiveness of the round scoring and the way the races make you play a certain way)). Anyhow Tom, I will continue to watch you but please don't try and hide the reasons you don't like a game like you did here. Much love from all of us who may often disagree my friend!
Tom already said in one of his top 10 lists that he hates it when designers deliberately make games close in scoring. I believe he said it was lazy game design.
How about instead of the whole engineer walking over the flow diagram try to do Bot programming with the mancala of Trajan? I think I will try that some time as I also have that game
All in all, the only thing I'm left wondering at the end of this review is... WHAT THE HELL does your T-Shirt mean?! For someone whose beloved home town is Tokyo, I'm really wondering!
Glad I found someone that agrees. I had the unfortunate experience of having this as my first Feld game. "Straightjacket" is a perfect word to describe it. And then all these disconnected ways of scoring points...yuck. A true headache and not fun. Likely won't play again. You are being too kind saying "I am sure this is a good game". Not every game is good. Fortunately, i have played "The Castles of Burgundy" since and LOVE it.
Tom, I can't understand how you can say, "I am sure this is a good game but I hate it." If you hate it, how can it be a good game? Also... isn't there a little theme given the fact you are suppose to be in an underwater capsule? It is titled Aquasphere... isn't it?
Andrew Scholl So true. For another healthy vegetable I greatly prefer, try Kale (though it's not always good). I mostly like it thrown into salads. To the original question: Tom knows other people who really like it, so that's what he means when he says it's a good game. And when he says it has "no theme," you can see that he's using hyperbole to say that while objects in the game have labels as if there is a theme, the mechanisms don't clearly support that theme. Imagine the theme of Agricola being used on the mechanisms of Descent. Monsters could be called "feeding your people," equipment could be "minor and major improvements," and moving your character could be called "placing your worker." There would be a "farming theme," but it would make very little sense. So it's a farming game in name only. Besides, it would be hard to comprehend. Both games are complex, but the complexity isn't overwhelming because things work together in line with the theme.
I still don't get the argument of nonexistent theme in games. Every game has theme to it, it just depends on how much you want to use your imagination and how much it makes sense to you the individual. For example most of us would say chess has a nonexistent theme. But if you think about it it really could be a battle of a last stand where you protect your leaders at all cost. I wish we could move past this and instead say, I really don't like this game. The theme made no sense to me and I just didn't like it. Wouldn't that be better for new gamers?
I understand what you are saying. It's true that all games have some sort of theme. Some are certainly stronger than others. When I think of games that have "nonexistent" theme I think of games that use a mechanic to score victory points despite the theme. When you design a games mechanics that contradict or ignore the theme it makes the theme feel "pasted on" and therefore void. You are right about using your imagination and I personally love doing so in gaming. However, having to make giant leaps to force a theme to work around wonky mechanics is a nail in the coffin for me.
Joseph Lynn I can't argue that and won't try. My point is there is theme. What you seem to be describing is how you don't like how the "theme" connects to the mechanics in some games. My point is I would prefer to see reviewers describe the game that way. Instead of saying, "there is no theme here". It seems contradictory to me and I'm not sure how it helps new gamers.
Board Game Brawl I totally agree. Those games have theme more tightly connected and in your face. I'm not disagreeing with that. I guess my point is theme is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. Just like we could both be looking at a painting by Grant Wood. I might say this is dumb and move on. While you might be brought to tears or think of all kinds of things. All this to say, if you dislike the theme or don't get it why not say that? To say there is no theme still doesn't make sense to me.
Jon Weber I'm hearing a faint voice coming form the halls of cardboard. I believe it to be none other than the board game gods....They are saying "Agree to disagree" Yes, I think I shall.
After all these years you would think it would be clear that "no theme" is code for: the mechanisms are not theme-driven or are not helped by the explicit theme of the game; NOT that there's "literally no theme”. If you CAN produce an underlying story that can help you understand how a list of actions and options are connected together then good for you, but it's hard to disagree with the claim that complex games benefit from explicitly sensical theme-driven mechanisms: it is a lot easier to play a game if your options are, by design, informed by the theme instead of being a list of abstract mechanisms theme-flavored. Just like a movie can benefit from having a sensical plot driving the actions of the characters, it can also be ruined if those actions are seen as unmotivated from the point of view of the plot.
Think of the narrator for SpongeBob......"five years later....." For a Euro-worker-placement game it's not bad. Theme doesn't matter much in worker-placement games. The components are nice, no problems there. Tom is right that it's really difficult, if not impossible, to catch up if someone is far ahead in points. I don't hate it and I'll play it again but then again I typically don't like Euro games. Try before you buy!
I had high hopes for this one and wanted to grab it right away. After reading a few reviews and watching some videos I think I'll pass. It looks like massive point salad and a recipe for frustration. Well, at least on a beautiful board. I would like to play it once to see if I'm right.
I just came here to agree on this Tom, I recently played this game and I hate it! cast it into the fire, destroy it!
10 років тому+1
Sorry, but this game is terrible :D okok, it's just my opinion. But it wasn't fun at all... It's like watching the movie without the picture... You can hear what's going on, but in the end it doesn't make sense...
Why do people say, "it's just my opinion" as a defence for what they say? Of course it's just your opinion, what do people expect? Not knocking what you said thereafter though. After all, it's just your opinion :P
10 років тому+3
Shortbrain Cause people normally forget that every person can have it's own opinion... So I'm extra pointing this one out :)
All I hear when I hear "there's no theme at all!" Is "I have no imagination". The "mechanisms in a box" criticism is old an tired as well. When you review a euro, review it like a euro.
Imagination isn't all you need, but a little stretch in the imagination can be helpful. One reason I admire Rahdo so much is because he brings theme to places where I saw none. Imagination aids in the enjoyment of the game, that's all. It might be easier for some people to make that stretch though.
Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin Still a valid comment. Sorry for your feelings. Euros succeed in this regard in different measures, and a subjective opinion of a game does well to comment on it.
Hmm. I thought this was a great game. Multiple victory path's player interaction that is not TOO brutal, timing to play with and a fun board style. I guess i don't mind fighting killer octopi with robots underwater. =-0
"I think it's a good game. I must, Ryan Metzler likes it..." I can't recall a Feld game he doesn't like sorry. Feld fanboy. Overly biased. Can't use that as a basis for liking a game.
I like how Tom made a reference to Ryan Metzler's review so we can compare two views of this game. The two reviews should give a pretty good idea if this is a game for you. This would not be a game for our group. For us, it does not matter who the designer is. We don't hash the pluses or minuses of a designer. That would be a waste of time. We'd rather spend that time enjoying games.
I saw this on kickstarter and got really excited looking at the cool boards and awesome theme! I couldn't wait to see how it played, so I read the rulebook, at first with enthusiasm, and by the end, sadness. I was impressed with the point generating engine but, for me, the theme and mechanisms did not work well together and that stopped me from backing it.
Tom was very fair in his review by both acknowledging that it was a good game and by pointing people to a video by a reviewer who loved it.
This viewer's judgement: "Tom's review......Excellent!" ;)
The two most important things haven't been discussed here:
1. Tom killed a Meeple with his hammer!
2. Did you see the "Shut the Door" sweetie in the end?
:-)
Nice
Noted
With all respect to Tom the theme is kinda of clunky, but think about it this way. You have two guys working together as a research team. You have your programmer in a control pod at the surface. You also have your guy at the bottom of the ocean running the station. Because of how far down the sea lab is the programmer has to make specific decision of what he can build and send down to his partner (they are out in the middle of the ocean). The station takes time to get around in to show the passing of time while you research, thereby when you travel to a pod of a higher value (ie the bot you can build there is more useful) is a more expensive thing to research and costs more time. The submarines can be explained as like having a bigger fleet of researching subs over time (though it's agreeably stupid that they are basically "unusable"). The more robots you put out also fall under having more researching robots out thereby giving you more points towards your research. The 6 points for letters is saying your rewarded for covering multiple areas of research, whether it be harvesting octopods or gems, or having the room for more upgrades and time storage (don't have an explanation for time storage, but its one of those things that helps the player "play" the game). I love your work Tom and I know you're not a euro guy, but I think you might of had, either, a bad play of it, or didn't quite grasp the theme. No fault to you, I think the designer could have given a little, if not alot, more reason for his mechanics, but this was my best interpretation of it. I hope this was, if not helpful, at least any interesting thought. I want to stress that I in no means ever want to sound like a hate writer or a guy with something to prove. I just think this game has potential! (Famous last words!) Thanks for your reviews which I've always gone to for guidance in my gaming experiences! Hope to get a response from you Tom! Sincerely, Dominic Hernandez.
I think this is the review that truly shows where Tom lies on the thematic/strategic spectrum. I feel he's right there in the middle, but leans towards thematic.
Sure, some would say he's pure thematic in that "if it doesn't look pretty, he won't like it," but I think that's a bit unfair. He's defended plenty of dry Euros from the attacks made by his cohorts and I appreciate that. Tom's been pretty critical of Feld in the past, but he does enjoy Bruges and will definitely give games a chance (even when he kind of knows he won't like it). Going into this overview of AquaSphere, I had an inkling as to how he'd react. I wasn't far off. I'm fine with him not liking it because, well, being a Feld fan, even I am not too keen on this title. ...AND I think Tom's amount of fairness given to reviews has only gone up over the years.
I doubt in the future, he'll have another Vasco de Gama or Hawaii 'reaction' to a game because he understands who games are 'for' and who they are 'not for.' I think it's commendable for Tom to give a pretty bad review of AquaSphere, but still have the politeness to say that he's sure it's a good game...but for someone else. I think that's very fair.
Thanks for playing, Tom. I know it was rough, but consider yourself much stronger now! :D
a little surprised. I've watched a number of videos where reviewers commented that this was the most thematic of Stefan Feld's games. Most them commented that it ranked near their list of favorite Feld games. Granted they are bigger Feld fans, but still. This review couldn't be more antithetical to the others. All that being said, i'm grateful for this review. Always interested in varying perspectives on games.
just bought this a couple of weeks ago and now we're playing it almost daily. I think it's a great game and sorry to hear you didn't enjoy it
It's getting to the point where there are so many games coming out, that I don't have time to sit through bad game reviews. Tom, I trust your opinion. I want to hear you rave about a game that you genuinely love, so that I can give it a try.
Perhaps you could save the negative reviews for a debate video with your buddies. That might be fun to watch, and allow for certain games that you don't like to get their fair share of the spot light.
Be careful. He isn't always right. Anyone else remember his glowing reviews for Giants and Dungeon Run? This is not to say he is a bad reviewer. This is just to say that everyone has different tastes and do not see things when playing games that other groups might :O)
Josh Smith Of course. I tend to like games that he likes, so his reviews are helpful to me. I do watch other reviews; especially for the same game if I'm interested.
The review videos are as much about the basic game play and components as they are Tom's opinions, so even if he doesn't like them, it's nice to see the game in some detail (if only to disagree and pick it up anyway).
If you're just looking to buy whatever he likes, skip to the end.
***** With all the new games coming out (3-6 a week?), I guess I'm looking for a highlight reel. I'll stick to the top 10 lists.
Like I said before, Tom is often the first or second stop in the research trail. I just don't have time to sift through 6-10 Dice Tower reviews a day.
I don't know about you, but I have around 50 games in my collection, and probably have access to 3 times that through my gaming group. I'm enjoying this Renaissance of Games, but its growth is attracting a lot of imitation, and mediocrity.
Ain't nobody got time for that. Well, Tom does.
Fair enough. I find myself ignoring about 60% of the DT's video reviews myself, simply because the theme/mechanics have to grab me before I spend my limited time on video watching.
I am glad they do the volume that they do though, if only to keep the hidden gems from being overlooked through all the noise.
For what it's worth, Tom had the middle hex set up incorrectly. The 5 should be on bottom and 2 should be on top to start (so you can see what items replace at the end of each round -- nothing comes out at the end of the last round, which is why the 5 hex is blank). Ryan Meltzer set it up correctly in his review. In this fashion you score fewer KP points earlier in the game for subs/cards but reap the other advantages of getting them earlier, versus them having less utility later on but be worth more KP.
First time ever writing a comment on the Dice Tower videos (what ever that means).
Full disclaimer, I like the game, don't love it. Only played it twice. Have about 425 games in my personal collection (the_eye on the geek) so my opinion at least have some... weight?
"No theme at all" is the claim. (To often it seams)
Not lacking in theme"?
Not that the reviewer have a hard time understanding it?
Is it because you cant fire at the other scientists or that there is no cards explaining every little thing that happens in the game?
Come on. It takes longer to open some doors because the locking mechanism is more complicated, you get more knowledge when you put out subs because they travel to the surface with the data and crystals, you loose knowledge to octopods, because the area you control, where you're doing research on the crystals, is being shaken by the creatures, or they bite on the power cables or what ever your mind can make up.
The reviewer is able to make up a 5 minute strained explanation on why some Marvel hero can beat another (spoiler: Bullseye don't, he escapes from the Hulk, that's a win ;))
Vasal don't have to like the game, not even NOT hate it.
But to say that there is no theme in the box, simply, is not true.
Parts of the job of a reviewer is to state opinion and other parts are to talk facts.
And I think the lack of enjoyment that this reviewer found in the game might have colored his opinion of what is actually in the box.
This is not an abstract, lacking in the theme department, with standard cubes and meeples and tired war theme.
This is a heavy euro, with lots of interlocking game-mechanics, bound together by a new theme and supported by matching artwork and nice components.
And with that, I wish you all a good morning.
Enjoy your games for what they are people. And don't forget to use some of that imagination.
I'm not trying to start anything, just simply curious how stuff works at The Dice Tower. I think the seals of approval/excellency etc are a nice touch, and it wouldn't come as a surprise if game publishers started putting these on their boxes in future prints. What makes me curious is what happens if say Tom hates a game but another reviewer loves it. Can they give the game a seal, and if they can, how does this add up in the end? There are already quite a few reviewers putting out videos for Dice Tower so the seal seems a bit deterministic and generalizing. I love the idea of the seals, but maybe it would be more helpful if people could now hoe actually gave the game a seal, say something like "The Dice Tower Seal: Vasel Approved" or "The Dice Tower Seal: Metzler - Goes Into My Collection"? Just a thought :)
From what I can gather, Tom saw a gavel and thought "that would be fun", and that's about it. Can't blame him for that. A friend of mine has an old brass car horn, and if he did UA-cam reviews, I'm sure he'd incorporate it somehow.
If the seal of approval thing really took off in the way you say (an endorsement featured on packaging) then I guess there would more likely be issues with reviewer preference. Given the way the Dice Tower appears to have been set up though, I can't see it being a problem. I would suggest:
Tom does middle weight and Amerit**** games
Ryan does heavy Euros
Dan does party games
Zee does games nobody has heard of
The next edition packaging for TI3 is just a giant Dice Tower seal with Sam's face in it.
It's just a fun thing Tom is doing. None of the other reviewers are incorporating it. As Tom is the head of the Dice Tower, he alone has the say in the Dice Towers seal of approval. If a separate reviewer hated a game but Tom thought it was amazing, I'm sure Tom would make his own video with the seal of approval for clarification on HIS stance. That's the great thing about reviewers in conjunction with different types of games, people are going to feel differently about the experience. It's up to us as the consumers to identify with the reviewers we think are most like us to make the judgement on whether we would like the game or not.
Joseph Lynn If Ryan loves a game, he can give it the Dice Tower seal of approval. If any of the reviewers want to hand it out, they can.
The Dice Tower Well there you go, I stand corrected.
I'm happy I don't care about theme. Allows me to enjoy a lot more games.
Literally every negative you say about the game is this game's positive :)
Hmmm. I'm still gonna try it, but I am a little skeptical now. I hope you review La Isla, feld's other new game this year. I just got it last week from funagain games and I love it! I also think that the theme comes across in that one more than his others. It really felt like I was trapping animals. It's pretty light, but it works really well, and plays very fast. Looking forward to your review of that. I actually think you may like that one. :)
I cant wait for my copy.. Bec this is exactly my type of game... But i can understand how it's not for everyone. Having said that... I don't agree about the lack of theme in this game... Imo, it has plenty of it and the rest just requires a little imagination. Btw.. Hope Tom plays La Isla.. Am sure Zee picked it up based on his comment about it on the pre-Essen podcast. Cheers.
The shirt, where'd you get it?
It Feld like work.
Thank goodness I get my euro reviews from Rahdo, and Amerithrash reviews from Tom. Each has their own opinions and criticisms of the other. They're like character foils.
I don't know, many of the eurogames I bought were explicit recommendations by Tom. Though I own a lot more of course, some of which Tom doesn't like at all. I don't view it as "Euro vs. Ameritrash", but more like if I value the reviewers opinion in general, if his points are valid and how the game looks like in the overview. Tom will like games which are 100% euro or 100% ameritrash if they are good (in his opinion), and that is way more valuable to me than somebody who's just into on side of the gaming isle.
It takes time do do things in real ife, so why does only being able to do a certain amount of actions based on your time tokens not make thematic sense?
And planning future moves in advance is hard work????
I have to disagree with Tom, not liking the game is his choice, but his reasons were a little thin and I think there is a trend appearing when it comes to bashing Feld games, I hope this has not influenced his thoughts.
Hey Simon,
I think I'm with you on the 'bashing' thought. Do you think a designer like Feld is more worthy of that sort of constant critiquing than someone like Uwe Rosenberg? Feld, though he loves inner-workings of good-synergizing mechanisms, at least has games that feel differently when played. Rosenberg just seems to rearrange farming tropes he's created to make new games. The bashing of Rosenberg seems light compared to Feld.
On the flipside, Antoine Bauza seems to surprise everyone with wildly different designs for each new release. For me, he hit it big with 7 Wonders, but I'm not fond of everything since. On the one hand, I kind of like Feld and Rosenberg sticking to what they're famous for, but I also like Bauza's willingness to take a risk here and there for the sake of a fresh and exciting new game...even though HE'S more likely to strike out for me.
What do you think?
I think his point was why does it take time to move left, but not right?
I have to agree that the theme seems non-existant in this, which is a crying shame because I was genuinely excited when I saw how beautiful the game looked. Even Ryan's favourable review left me feeling I had sat through little more than a Technicolor algebra lecture.
The inferred theme and aesthetics really could have made a good game great, but there's still a lot of great games from Essen this year, so it's no big deal.
TyphoidBryan I enjoy games by both Rosenberg and Feld and I agree with you Brian that Rosenberg seems almost immune to criticism, even though many of his games feel quite similar and follow a tried and tested formula...even the art in Rosenbergs games, though good, gives a heavy feeling of dejavu.
Bauza seems to be exploring the many varities of mechanics available to him and probably puts theme first and foremost in his game design.
If a designer plays to his strengths as Feld and Rosenberg does I dont think it should viewed as a weakness.
Tom I am a fan of yours but I am beginning to feel like some of your reviews don't do games justice. You complain this game is tight. Well that it was Feld is trying to do here. He has made this as a shift away from his typical point salad mold because that is his way of redefining himself with every game. Why don't you hate on Agricola more if you don't like this sort of game? That game really plays you too. Then you rant about how you didn't expect theme and that had no bearing on your overall rating when it clearly did. You say later that getting submarines out gets points and so does getting your bots and your subs out and then say it as though you are confused. That is not a mechanical problem, that is your problem with not being able to connect the theme. Why do you get points for these? Well Tom if you bothered reading reading the description you would see almost immediately that: "The AquaSphere is a research facility stationed deep below the ocean's surface, and your skilled team - consisting of an engineer, a scientist, reprogrammable bots and exploratory submarines - is trying to gather as much data as possible." So the more subs and bots you have working the more data you would be collecting right? SHEEESH!! Then to cap off all this you whine about the theme being completely gone at the end!!! All of this rant leaves you with zero credibility in my eyes.
You also complain that a person can do really well by having an overall area control. Well wouldn't the other players use their brains and try and stop that from happening (after the first play anyway which really doesn't count as my group always jokes)?
To be honest a buddy of mine and I were talking about you the other day and how we are thankful you brought us into the hobby further when we were but novices in gaming. We were also thankful that we don't listen to your reviews any more because of the amount of flops we have both purchased over the last 4 years that you have talked up (in my case just some examples are Giants, Summoner Wars and who can forget your love for Dungeon Run perhaps the biggest regret I've had, as the game was completely broken and you failed to even notice that). Still I am greatful that you led me to get Exodus Proxima Centauri which is indeed an excellent game.
Anyhow, I know this seems harsh but I think you need to take a step back a little more and play your games more that you are reviewing. I, like many others are glad you make these videos and I often watch many of them. I just think you are trying to churn out too many reviews now as you feel obliged because of your Kickstarter. We all know how hard you work but I think you would benefit from being more considered like Joel Eddie is. You would gain more credibility that way. I hope this helps you in the future. I too often used to shoot my mouth off when I didn't enjoy a game. Now I keep quiet until I know why that is. I really don't like Terra Mystica for instance and I couldn't completely put my finger on it until about 5 plays and I did this because my gaming group loves it and because I wanted to tell them why I didn't enjoy it when they asked me (beforehand I would say I was unsure about it (basically I don't like the restrictiveness of the round scoring and the way the races make you play a certain way)).
Anyhow Tom, I will continue to watch you but please don't try and hide the reasons you don't like a game like you did here.
Much love from all of us who may often disagree my friend!
Tom already said in one of his top 10 lists that he hates it when designers deliberately make games close in scoring. I believe he said it was lazy game design.
I should add to be completely clear... if you say you hate the game... then in your opinion... are you not saying that the game is not a good game???
Played it today. It didn't feel fun and it felt like work.
How about instead of the whole engineer walking over the flow diagram try to do Bot programming with the mancala of Trajan? I think I will try that some time as I also have that game
All in all, the only thing I'm left wondering at the end of this review is... WHAT THE HELL does your T-Shirt mean?! For someone whose beloved home town is Tokyo, I'm really wondering!
HemTV you never played King of Tokyo? lol
ViolentFrog Thanks, my wife made me realize this a few months ago, should have updated that comment... My town talked to me more than the game ;)
Glad I found someone that agrees. I had the unfortunate experience of having this as my first Feld game. "Straightjacket" is a perfect word to describe it. And then all these disconnected ways of scoring points...yuck. A true headache and not fun. Likely won't play again. You are being too kind saying "I am sure this is a good game". Not every game is good.
Fortunately, i have played "The Castles of Burgundy" since and LOVE it.
Tom, I can't understand how you can say, "I am sure this is a good game but I hate it." If you hate it, how can it be a good game? Also... isn't there a little theme given the fact you are suppose to be in an underwater capsule? It is titled Aquasphere... isn't it?
An Even Weirder Move Yes...yes it is ;D
An Even Weirder Move Wow- again, well said and succinct.
Andrew Scholl So true. For another healthy vegetable I greatly prefer, try Kale (though it's not always good). I mostly like it thrown into salads.
To the original question: Tom knows other people who really like it, so that's what he means when he says it's a good game. And when he says it has "no theme," you can see that he's using hyperbole to say that while objects in the game have labels as if there is a theme, the mechanisms don't clearly support that theme.
Imagine the theme of Agricola being used on the mechanisms of Descent. Monsters could be called "feeding your people," equipment could be "minor and major improvements," and moving your character could be called "placing your worker." There would be a "farming theme," but it would make very little sense. So it's a farming game in name only. Besides, it would be hard to comprehend. Both games are complex, but the complexity isn't overwhelming because things work together in line with the theme.
Could it be considered an Abstract? "Semi-Abstract" might be a new term?
I still don't get the argument of nonexistent theme in games. Every game has theme to it, it just depends on how much you want to use your imagination and how much it makes sense to you the individual. For example most of us would say chess has a nonexistent theme. But if you think about it it really could be a battle of a last stand where you protect your leaders at all cost.
I wish we could move past this and instead say, I really don't like this game. The theme made no sense to me and I just didn't like it.
Wouldn't that be better for new gamers?
I understand what you are saying. It's true that all games have some sort of theme. Some are certainly stronger than others. When I think of games that have "nonexistent" theme I think of games that use a mechanic to score victory points despite the theme. When you design a games mechanics that contradict or ignore the theme it makes the theme feel "pasted on" and therefore void. You are right about using your imagination and I personally love doing so in gaming. However, having to make giant leaps to force a theme to work around wonky mechanics is a nail in the coffin for me.
Joseph Lynn I can't argue that and won't try. My point is there is theme. What you seem to be describing is how you don't like how the "theme" connects to the mechanics in some games.
My point is I would prefer to see reviewers describe the game that way. Instead of saying, "there is no theme here". It seems contradictory to me and I'm not sure how it helps new gamers.
Board Game Brawl I totally agree. Those games have theme more tightly connected and in your face. I'm not disagreeing with that. I guess my point is theme is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. Just like we could both be looking at a painting by Grant Wood. I might say this is dumb and move on. While you might be brought to tears or think of all kinds of things.
All this to say, if you dislike the theme or don't get it why not say that? To say there is no theme still doesn't make sense to me.
Jon Weber I'm hearing a faint voice coming form the halls of cardboard. I believe it to be none other than the board game gods....They are saying "Agree to disagree" Yes, I think I shall.
After all these years you would think it would be clear that "no theme" is code for: the mechanisms are not theme-driven or are not helped by the explicit theme of the game; NOT that there's "literally no theme”.
If you CAN produce an underlying story that can help you understand how a list of actions and options are connected together then good for you, but it's hard to disagree with the claim that complex games benefit from explicitly sensical theme-driven mechanisms: it is a lot easier to play a game if your options are, by design, informed by the theme instead of being a list of abstract mechanisms theme-flavored.
Just like a movie can benefit from having a sensical plot driving the actions of the characters, it can also be ruined if those actions are seen as unmotivated from the point of view of the plot.
Think of the narrator for SpongeBob......"five years later....."
For a Euro-worker-placement game it's not bad. Theme doesn't matter much in worker-placement games. The components are nice, no problems there. Tom is right that it's really difficult, if not impossible, to catch up if someone is far ahead in points.
I don't hate it and I'll play it again but then again I typically don't like Euro games. Try before you buy!
I had high hopes for this one and wanted to grab it right away. After reading a few reviews and watching some videos I think I'll pass. It looks like massive point salad and a recipe for frustration. Well, at least on a beautiful board. I would like to play it once to see if I'm right.
i agree
I just came here to agree on this Tom, I recently played this game and I hate it! cast it into the fire, destroy it!
Sorry, but this game is terrible :D okok, it's just my opinion. But it wasn't fun at all... It's like watching the movie without the picture... You can hear what's going on, but in the end it doesn't make sense...
Why do people say, "it's just my opinion" as a defence for what they say? Of course it's just your opinion, what do people expect? Not knocking what you said thereafter though. After all, it's just your opinion :P
Shortbrain Cause people normally forget that every person can have it's own opinion... So I'm extra pointing this one out :)
Shouldn't it be Hell Games? :D
Nice Tee
All I hear when I hear "there's no theme at all!" Is "I have no imagination". The "mechanisms in a box" criticism is old an tired as well. When you review a euro, review it like a euro.
My apologies for not having imagination. If imagination is all you need, why have a theme at all?
Imagination isn't all you need, but a little stretch in the imagination can be helpful. One reason I admire Rahdo so much is because he brings theme to places where I saw none. Imagination aids in the enjoyment of the game, that's all. It might be easier for some people to make that stretch though.
Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin Yakkov, I'm happy you have Rhado in your life.
Joseph Lynn Rahdo gives his grace to all.
Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin
Still a valid comment. Sorry for your feelings.
Euros succeed in this regard in different measures, and a subjective opinion of a game does well to comment on it.
To sum up: Tom Vassal only likes thematic ameritrash games.
To sum up: Not true. Also, it's Vasel, not Vassal.
Yeah, zero interest for me.
Hmm. I thought this was a great game. Multiple victory path's player interaction that is not TOO brutal, timing to play with and a fun board style. I guess i don't mind fighting killer octopi with robots underwater. =-0
I enjoy the s!@! out of this game.
He doesn't like thinking that far ahead. He should definitely stay away from the chessboard.
Have to agree with Tom. Looks like a very boring game.
"I think it's a good game. I must, Ryan Metzler likes it..."
I can't recall a Feld game he doesn't like sorry. Feld fanboy. Overly biased. Can't use that as a basis for liking a game.
Aquasphere is fantastic and probably Felds most elegant design. And also by far the most thematic.