Happy Hour #50 - The Return Of The King (feat. Nerdrotic, HeelvsBabyface and MauLer)
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- Опубліковано 1 кві 2022
- We come to it at last - the great battle of our time. Join me and the lads as we discuss the epic conclusion to Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy.
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We were so impossibly lucky to have these films made 20 years ago. God, I miss films like this. Not just fantasy epics, but something with heart.
Yeah. 🙁
It’s been 20 years since I watched them. I need to keep up.
@Suicide Booth Do like I did and buy the DVDs, preferably the extended versions. Once you own physical copies, there’s no way they can be “improved” or “fixed”, so to speak.
I watch them every few months. I’m not a massive fan of watching movies these days, much prefer UA-cam and documentaries but LOTR is the exception.
Movies with an actual plot and character building
About Sam, i love Faramir`s line in Two Towers about him “The Shire must truly be a great realm, Master Gamgee, where gardeners are held in high honor.” just after the greatest monologue in movies.
Theoden thought as Saruman said ... "You are the lesser son of greater sires"
But when he was dying under his horse "I go, now, to the halls of my fathers, in who's mighty company, I shall not now feel ashamed."
Ooo right in the feels!
He still did better in the books - "I felled the black serpent". He actually did more than just lead a charge, he personally cut down the enemy ensign.
In my theater, after Denethor gives his everyone is going to die speech, everyone applauded when Gandalf beat the stuffing out of him. It was awesome.
I used to play that audio in voice chat whenever I was playing CS:GO zombie escape maps and we were about to be overrun lol
@@kongfeet81 fleee fools.. we're overun, save yourselves..... *_RUN FOR YOUR LIVES_* "
lol
What Denethor says isn't exactly what you want to hear from a "leader" when you're facing almost certain death. Good on Gandalf for trying to keep morale up when facing almost insurmountable odds haha
Prepare for battle!
*old crumbly voice*... "When they made these films, they went with the old ways. They used dark and secret methods and long forgotten tools and talents now seen as myth and legend. And those who commanded the making are now spoken of in wide eyed whispers whilst cowering in dusty corners."
I always get choked up at the end, when the 4 hobbits bow to Aragorn, and he stops them and says “my friends… you bow to no one.” And then the king and everyone else bows to the hobbits. So much emotion in Viggo’s performance that it gets to me.
I openly, loudly WEEP every single time
I'm tearing up just reading your comment thinking about it.
This is one of the greatest scenes in cinema. I will die on this hill
Yes, definitely one of my favorite scenes
bro at this point i get choked up at nearly half the trilogy. Guaranteed tear jerker scenes for me that i can think of off the top of my head (but are CERTAINLY not limited to):
1. Boromir and Aragorn talking in Lothlorien
2. Boromir defending the hobbits
3. Frodo and Aragorn talking at the end of Fellowship
4. Boromir's last words to Aragorn
5. "Go back Sam! I'm going to Mordor alone." "Of course you are. And I'm going with you!"
6. Frodo saving Sam from drowning
7. Any time the sad Rohan theme plays
8. Theoden being saved from Saruman's grasp
9. Theoden at Theodred's tomb
10. The warg fight (so epic)
11. Faramir's flashback to Osgiliath
12. The heroes charging out of Helm's Deep (particularly the music paired with the flag of Rohan's flag unfurling)
13. Gandalf and Eomer saving the day
14. All of Sam's monologue
15. Faramir letting Sam and Frodo go
16. Lighting of the Beacons
17. Gandalf saving the retreating soldiers of Gondor
18. Faramir's conversation with his father and subsequent sacrifice
19. "And Rohan will answer" paired work the epic music
20. All of Gandalf's leadership lines during the siege of Minas Tirith, particularly "Send these foul beasts into the abyss!" and "Hold them back! Do not give into fear! Stand to your posts! FIGHT!" and "You are soldiers of Gondor. No matter what comes through that gate, you will stand your ground!"
21. The Rohirrim leaving Dunharrow (and Edoras going to Dunharrow, forgot that one)
22. The Rohirrim arriving at Minas Tirith
23. Charge of the Rohirrim (obviously)
24. The Rohirrim regrouping and charging the Mumakil
25. Eowyn saving Theoden and watching him die
26. Gandalf and Pippin talking as the troll pounds on the door with the few soldiers there pointing spears at the door (idk why i like that so much but i just love the thought of them being exhausted, shell shocked, and still ready to fight for their country and defend it to the end)
27. Aragorn's speech and the charge into the orcs
28. Sam saving Frodo from Shelob and the orcs
29. "I can't carry it for you, but i can carry you!"
30. The crack of doom scene
31. Frodo and Sam hugging as they think theyre about to die
32. "My friends, you bow to no one."
33. The Grey Havens scene (obviously)
Drunkler, there is an excellent scene in the books when Sam is carrying the ring where it attempts to test him where it goes "Hey if you keep me and wield my power you could become lord of Mordor and turn it from a barren wasteland into a lush garden, and it gives Sam a second of pause before he laughs it off because "Its enough work for me to take care of the garden that I have now, I am to small a hobbit to turn all of Mordor into a garden." I always loved that scene and the idea that its the humble "little people" or no large ambition that can resist the power of the ring because they look at its promise's and go "Yeah, but its a bit much don't ya think?"
Sam's temptation scene shows why he's able to give the Ring up to Frodo shortly afterwards: his humble nature basically negates the Ring's main corruption power. Even the Ring seems to realize this, because it barely even _tries_ with Sam: "Oh, hey Sam... you wanna be... uh... the Lord of Gardeners? How about that?... Yeah, I got nuthin'."
It also says a lot about his love of gardening as that was what was tempting him in the proposal more then the idea of being a great hero with a flaming sword.
@@DStabilizer A flaming sword! The newest Angmar® model!! Sam actually _laughed_ at that one. Even the Ring seemed to shut up - as if it were kind of embarrassed.
@@donweatherwax9318 😂😂
This actually kind of reminds me of something I've read and heard a couple of times:
You can make rats addicted to cocain very easily if you just put them alone in a cage with nothing to do. However, if you put a rat in an optimal environment, with good food, an interesting environment and other rats to socialize and play with, you just can't. They won't take the cocain if they have the choice not to. And what's even more amazing, if I remember correctly, if you put a rat that's already addicted to cocain in such an optimal environment, they will just stop doing it and become normal, healthy rats.
Which is to say, the Shire is propably the optimal environment for *people*. There are no threats to contend with, there is an abundance of food (to the point that eating all the time is kind of a Hobbit cliché), there is nature to be in, there is work you have to do with your own hands - and if you have any special kind of interest, you can just go at it. Want to be a gardener? Cool, be a gardener. Want to grow pipeweed? Great, go after it. Want to write poetry and songs and stories? By all means, do it.
The entire point of the One Ring is that it tempts you with the power to *achieve results*. Want to do good? Want to do evil? All you need is power and you can have it.
But you want to do *gardening*? The entire point of gardening (at least for Sam) lies in the activity itself. Sam doesn't do gardening because he wants to have the greatest garden in the world. Sam does gardening because that's what Sam does, that's what he's good at and that's what he wants to do in his life.
If you live in an optimal environment and get to do the things that you like doing, you are pretty much immune to the temptation of the ring. (Or cocain, for that matter.)
Which is to say, if the whole of Middle Earth had been like the Shire, Sauron would have had to beg people to take his rings.
The invincible ghost army that you promised to free from eternal torture just turned around and demanded you hold up your side of the deal. This is a world where oaths and honor mean everything. Aragorn could not then go back on his word. Works just fine for me.
Yeah, they were cursed specifically because they were oathbreakers, Aragorn couldn't exactly break his own oath to keep them from peaceful rest.
Plus trying to use an undead army against Sauron, who was also known as the Necromancer, probably not the best plan.
I think you're absolutely correct and that particular element of this book and movie actually goes pretty deep.
Just for context, I'm currently working on my Master's in Theology, and The Lord of the Rings is genuinely one of the biggest influences on my life and my eventual route to getting to this point. So, I've pretty much always approached LOTR with some level of understanding of the Catholic themes found in it since I first saw the movies and read the books as a kid. And they're still legitimately so thematically and theologically deep that even now as a grad student after years of rereading and rewatching, I continue to discover something new in them every single time.
I say all of that just to preface my belief that Aragorn's whole experience with the Army of the Dead is meant to reflect Christ's descent into Hell to redeem the souls of sinners after his crucifixion and before his ressurection. Like Aragorn, Christ in Christian tradition is the descendent of Abraham and David so he fulfills the "rightful King" motif that Aragorn fulfills in the story, which is why the dead answer only to him. Just as Catholics believe Christ has the power to save the soul from spiritual death, Aragorn saves the spirits of the dead from their eternal condemnation by finally holding their oaths fulfilled as he fulfills his destiny as the heir of Gondor.
Even the encritpion over the entrance to the mountain "The way is shut. It was made by those who are dead, and the dead keep it" is a reference to how the dead (sinners) are kept in Hell by their own transgressions and it's only through the Return of the King that they are given the opportunity to be released and redeemed.
Also, the idea of oaths being so powerful in LOTR corresponds with how important oaths are in a theological sense because they're words that are said before God rather than just words between two human beings.
All that being said, one of the things I love most about LOTR is that you don't have to know all of the Catholic subtext and themes within it to love it, but when you do explore it, it makes it just that much more rich and amazing to go back to.
It does, and Jackson was a bit boxed in as he made both Rohan and especially Gondor so much weaker than they are. They served a specific purpose in the books, but with Gondor being portrayed as so weak, they needed to be the army off the boats which is canonically wrong.
There's also the practical consideration, of not wanting an invincible ghost army pissed off at you.
I love the Galadriel scene where she tests herself against evil. Cate Blanchett is spectacular.
When I saw this in the theater, at the scene where Theodon gives his speech and gives the battle cry, that is picked up by the whole Rohirrim. The theater lost their minds, I've never had another movie theater experience like those movies.
I doubt we will ever see the like again.
Theoden was a display of how to build in a powerful female character arc as a hero without degrading the male counterpart.
Just because she had to prove herself and defy norms it doesn’t mean the men are evil or degrading, he’s also great but the priority was the continuation of their people hence her struggle, not that they felt her weak.
My personal moment comes when merry shouts "the eagles are coming"
Then this flight of birds roll in. One bird flips on its back and split esses right into a fell beast claws out and tears it a new one. Absolute battle of Britain moment right there.. movie gold!
The relationship between Theoden and Eowyn is so well-written and acted (I would go as far as saying Miranda Otto and Bernard Hill have the best on-screen chemistry in this trilogy, you really buy them as niece and uncle), it's one of my favourite aspects of these films and yes, sadly, that kind of quality seems unthinkable nowadays.
You mean Eowyn?
I still tear up to this day when the riders of rohan show up and Thoden's speech before that epic charge is still incredible.
100% man. Then when they see the oliphaunts charging in. Theoden has this look of despair for like a second then straight to 'Reform the line! Sound the charge!' and off again
Those horns always get me
Me too!!! It's so inspiring cause they didn't have to come help but they do and it's just when things are looking the worst for Gondor and then your just so happy and proud and that complete emotional shift from hopless to incredible just gets me every single time 💙
@@anon17472 no hesitation
Amen
RIDE FOR RUIN…AND THE WORLD'S ENDIIIIIIIINNNNG!
and that pan-out maaaaan. Just incredible. Absolutely timeless.
I think my favorite scene in the trilogy is where Faramir is riding out to Osgiliath, while cutting back to Denethor eating, and Pippin singing to him.
Brilliantly executed.
Makes me cry
That is chilling
Billy Boyd did the music for that himself!
Home is behind, the world ahead
And there are many paths to tread…
This.
Tolkien, like many other writers of yesteryear, understood what actual fellowship forged through adversity is.
Most current writers have absolutely no idea what that is, mostly because they have never experiences it.
Well, they haven't experienced much of anything really.
You make a good point. They’ve not faced true adversity. And they’re from California, meaning their brains are fucked.
Tolkien: Fellowship of the Ring
Modern Hacks: Allyship on a Tweet
The perfect example of this, is Suicide Squad. They sit down in the bar, after spending a couple hours together and all opt to die as some kind of family, cause they did a bit of fighting for a few minutes. Pyro or whatever his name is, even calls them a family before sacrificing himself, and not a single moment of their bonded relationships is earned in any way. I don't think I've ever seen a movie fail so miserably to form relationships, just so they could add 10min of an irrelevant character to the story (Joker).
Still my favorite scene was the Gimli and Legolas scene in the final battle.
"I never thought I'd die fighting side by side with an elf."
"What about side by side with a friend?"
"I . . . I could do that."
I always interpreted Gandalf's lines about the Witch King to mean that Sauron HAS sent him out before, but only to look for the Ring, and always with his identity veiled as just another one of the Nazgul, so nobody knows which one is the Witch King, if they even remember he exists. It's only now after Saruman's failure in Rohan that Sauron has decided the war is worth unveiling the Witch King and bringing him to the board. And if there's one thing the Witch King does best, it's WAR.
IIRC, the wraiths being more powerful in the last film is tied mostly to Sauron's own power growing exponentially over the course of the trilogy. They tried to demonstrate this audibly through their screeches - in the first film the wraith's shrieks are frightening, but short and tolerable for most of the characters. In the third film they have full-on ghostly wails that force all who hear it to cover their ears and run in terror.
I never made the connection between the waxing of the screeches power and Saurons power
@@tyrellthiel2201 It's one of those details from the books that is difficult to go into explicit detail about on film, but the mere fact that the filmmakers thought of a way to demonstrate it for those familiar with the text is one of those wonderful Easter eggs that further illustrates the writer and director's attention to detail.
The Battle at The Black Gate is easily one of the best scenes in cinema, specifically the line "for frodo" and the Merry and Pippen being the first to run after Aragorn.
Don't you mean The Battle at the "person of color" gate. 🤣
When I watched Infinity War in the cinema, during the wakanda battle scene, and the whole crowd goes nuts when Cap and BP literally led the charge and were the first to clatter into Thanos' forces, I'm like "Merri and Pippin did it first, lads."
... yea... "for frodo" was good... but as soon as you brought up "best scene" and "mordors, black gate" my brain immeadiately goes to
*_Is there any in this rout with authority to treat with me?_*
*_MOUTH OF SAURON_*
God it brings a tear to my eye
58:04 - that relationship was, if I remember rightly, drawn from Tolkien's experiences during WW1, and very much follows the general role of an officer's batman. For an officer, your batman was your constant companion, usually a soldier drawn from the officer's unit by the officer, and who did all of the tasks for an officer that they couldn't do because they were leading/directing the rest of the unit. It was seen as good job to have within the army, as it meant better rations, and was normally a fast track to promotion. Plus, most batmen (and batwomen for female officers) were their officer's most trusted person, and probably knew more about the officer than even their own parents.
Batman XD
You mean the officers backman, yea?
@@Sophia. No, batman. It's taken from British English, where bat is from the French word for pack saddle.
Rupert and his batman
@@AverageBritishNerd1138 really? I seem to remember the specials where they talked about it and explained about... I was sure they said "an officer and his backman which I took to be the guy who had the officers back, who the officer could rely on, who stood behind him and made things work....
But thanks for the correction, I will check this, because now I really want to know, but anyway, nice example of feeling absolutely right and being (possibly) super off^^
@@Sophia. He certainly had the officer's back, but their name is batman. Other names are aide de camp, and orderly. It's an old practice, largely done away with, though an officer's driver performs a similar role in modern militaries. It's well worth a read on the history to understand the mindset Tolkien was writing from. And no worries, we've all been completely sure but slightly inaccurate before! :)
My memory of this is spotty, but I seem to recall in the extra footages of the DVD, there was one scene where Aragorn and Theoden decides that it's their time to "draw swords together"... and chased after Peter Jackson with swords drawn. Just spoke volumes about the fun they all have with each other on the set.
Howard Shore's LOTR score is by far the most incredible work ever written.
The Mrs Doubtfire soundtrack always stuck with me as a kid too. That's another Howard shore score
Best ever? By far nontheless? Thats a bit of a stretch.
They are absolutely excellent, my favourites of all time, with the scores for Gettysburg and Dances With Wolves not too far behind.
PLEASE! It's clear that you definitely/drastically need to expand the scope of your musical experience.
Original Conan, Srar Wars, Godfather
Interesting video idea for the "Why modern movies suck" series. The death of male comrardarie.
I would say the death of camaraderie at all; I was watching HBO's Mare of Easttown yesterday, a crime drama starring Kate Winslet and Evan Peters as the main investigators, and I was baffled that one of the subplots involves an actual romance between them. Is it too much to ask that two protagonists just remain friends or colleagues?
I thought that series was decent. If for nothing else kate Winslet acting was great.
@@b.chaline4394 I tried to watch Our Flag Means Death, same thing there. They want to come off as woke, hip and trendy, but they just seem incapable of writing relationships that don't have a sexual element.
Women don’t know how to write men. They’re incapable of understanding male bonding without fetishizing it through homoeroticism.
Genuine male camaraderie. These days, the only way two males can be good friends is if they are fucking.
Sauron:
The energy bill of this place is incredible, but the green lighting is worth it!
Greta: How dare you!
Hahaha
I think the biggest missed opportunity along with showing Denethor had a palantir is that Gandalf had long been the secret guardian of the third elven ring. It’s special ability? The power to stir up the flames of courage and hope.
A good match with the slow, kindled courage of hobbits
Aww, nobody mentioned the Fun Fact about Grond?
EDIT - It was named after Morgoths Hammer. The one he wielded in his hands. Indirectly that should tell you something about how massive Morgoth was compared to Sauron.
shodan...
who let you out of cyberspace...
It's named after Morgoth's hammer, not his actual one.
Sam was the true hero of the lord of the rings. His total dedication to frodo as a friend and brother is why they made it to mordor. It's a beautiful relationship.
Yup. And R2-D2 was the actual hero of the Star Wars movies. Seriously, he's crucial to the success of almost every step of the plot, and the only reason Luke survives longer than half a movie, ever.
A lesser son of a lesser sire...
And the hero, nonetheless.
No
Samwise Gamgee is the kind of person I strive to be.
@@tyrellthiel2201 nice, we could all only hope to achieve that level of dedication and brotherhood. And fearless dedication at that.
The Witch-King's morningstar is the only weapon in the trilogy that isn't fairly historically accurate, because when the prop department first made it, Jackson told them it wasn't big or intimidating enough - so they remade it as large as it could possibly have been historically, and again Jackson said "bigger". So they decided to make the most ridiculously large head for it that they possibly could, trying to show him how silly it would be, and it was that version that Jackson loved and put in the film. Definitely the correct choice!
He actually wanted it scaled up by another 50% lol
Sam and Frodo's relationship is based on the friendships that happened between British officers and their batman. The almost legendary loyalty to each other regardless of rank or class differences
2:26:20 For Elrond and Isildur at Mt. Doom - the Ring wheedles and pries at the minds of those who behold it, looking for their weaknesses and probing slowly until they leave an opening for it to dominate them. Specifically if Elrond had given in to the thought that he could slay Isildur and take the ring to destroy it, that would have been exactly the opening it waits for. Much like Boromir is admonished for wanting to take it as a weapon to wield against Mordor, so Elrond would seek a good end and wreak an evil one, just by that first step on the path to damnation
In Tolkien's letters he out and out explicitly says that there wasn't, or perhaps never was, anyone on Middle-Earth who could have cast the ring in the lava. The Ring's even more than a powerful artifact in nerd-verse terms, it's literally 'irresistible'. From letter 181: 'Frodo was in such a position: an apparently complete trap: a person of greater native power could probably never have resisted the Ring's lure to power so long; a person of less power could not hope to resist it in the final decision. (Already Frodo had been unwilling to harm the Ring before he set out, and was incapable of surrendering it to Sam.)' Perhaps Manwë or Ulmo (more likely?) could have done it, being of a higher order than Sauron...
The filmmakers do a great job with the interplay between Sam, Gollum, and Frodo, more so than the book even. Gollum represents our fallen nature and you feel for him because he shows how easily someone can get snared by false promises and a bit of power. Sam is the realist who sees life on a simpler level. For Sam, life is black and white and that is why he's able to see Gollum's true nature for what it is. Frodo is a bit of a dreamer and he represents those who think everyone can be redeemed. He tells Sam he has to believe it. That creates tension between them, a bit of moral tug-of-war with Gollum in the middle.
The movie does a better job fleshing that out than the book in my opinion. There is also a neat bit of a flip that Tolkien may or may not have intended. Sam is the realist, but he's also the eternal optimist. Frodo is the dreamer but he carries a sense of doom and doesn't believe their is any hope for any of them. Or maybe I'm just reading into it, but the whole Sam-Frodo-Gollum dynamic is played up a bit more in the films and I like that it is.
The dynamic between the three is more engaging than it had any right to be.
Was a great listen going through the trilogy. The greatest film series ever made! Makes me sad that these days I am filled with dread instead of excitement with Amazon’s likely to be abomination.
Well, we’ve seen how bad Wheel of Time and Halo are, and from the trailer, it seems the new “loosely based on the works of Tolkien” series seems to share some of the same problems, so I’m expecting it to stink just as bad as those two. Amazon couldn’t make a good show if they tried, as they have such a twisted sense of what it means for a show to be good.
@@neillindgren8992 I agree, hence I made this spoof of the teaser: ua-cam.com/video/Yktj7-zYx7s/v-deo.html
@Suicide Booth yeah, sadly I know your right.
Peter Jackson raped Tolkiens legacy.
It won't last forever. People will eventually lose interest and stop watching, or even boycott, this absolute drivel that is on TV and in cinemas now. There will always be good stories to tell, and it's just a bad political climate to try to tell a story with any venom at the moment. It'll pass, and at some point in the future, we will have modern classics again
One of my favorite payoffs is when escaping Moria, Gimli says to Aragorn "never toss a Dwarf" its very simple, and cute, despite the situation. Then, in Two Towers, when he knows what needs to be done, he reluctantly orders Aragorn to toss him, even adding not to tell 'The Elf'
The pirate character that gets shot by Legolas is played by Peter Jackson. He has a scene in all 3 films. Throwing the spear in the battle of helms deep, and eating the carrot in fellowship going to the prancy pony
Ya I thought that was him eating that carrot
Thank you Drinker for celebrating with your awesome guests the greatest movie trilogy ever made !
I really enjoyed these videos ! Cheers !
The end to the greatest trilogy ever put to film. Do yourself a favor and carve out some time to watch all 3 extended films back to back. You’ll be happy you did and remember why you used to love the magic of movies. Truly a masterpiece all of them.
Did that, a girl and I were nerding out, so she came over to my place 3 nights in a row and we binged the LOTR trilogy. She's now my girlfriend.
Dont that at college bud. We hadent seen the extended ones and about 4 of us watched it. The scene that got us all was the mouth of sauron.
My baby sister and I watch all three extended films annually. I don't think I can view the movies any other way now
I'm going to go put on my extended editions and cry because we'll never have anything this good again.
I was 14 when i watched this movie in theather. The feeling after that movie was never recreated again. The battles, the story and the probably the biggest emotional pay-off movie ever.
This movie out of the trilogy for me holds a special place in my heart as it was the first one that I saw.
Didn’t see Fellowship or Two Towers prior to this and my entire concept of LOTR was through the two animated movies they did with The Hobbit and Return of the King. So while I knew the major story beats and the characters notably Frodo, Sam Gollum, and Gandalf, I had no idea who was who or why they were significant or any context. And yet I still frigging LOVED IT!
That’s a real testament to how good the theatrical version was edited and put together.
Surprised Pippin's song (Edge of night) wasn't brought up when you were talking about Faramir being sent off to die while Denethor sits and eats. If it gets mentioned later I apologize but goddamn does the combination of Pippin singing over the visuals just go straight to my heartstrings every time.
Me too it's so good I cry a little everytime
Around 1:37:44
Half way through the stream I had to go and watch the extended cut of this movie again.
After watching it again, the scenes that get me every time: Eomer finding Eowyn on the battlefield, Aragon saying to the Hobbits: " My friends you bow to no one.", and Frodo leaving the Grey Havens and smiling back at the others just before setting sail."
2:42:35 And Gollum's story ends where it began, in a death-struggle with another hobbit for the ring.
2:09:35 The hobbits' fate is actually mentioned early in the first book ("Concerning Hobbits") they're still around, but they prefer to avoid men, and are really good at not being seen (which is why the ring made its hobbit-bearers invisible - it was enhancing their innate abilities).
The Ring also made Isildur invisible, but betrayed him and slipped off while he was trying to cross the river Anduin, thus revealing him to the orcs he was fleeing and leading to his death.
How tough am I? I watched The Return of the King and I only cried four times
Hahaha your not alone 🤣
That makes you tougher than me.
Only 4 times? Stay clear of this madlad
I cried none.
And the movie towards the end uses my heart as a punching bag and resonates with me every time.
27:45
If I remember correctly from the books, when Grima killed Saruman (at the end of the book during the Scouring of the Shire), Grima killed Saruman because of how much he'd been mistreated by Saruman. However, Brad Dourif (the incredible actor that played Grima in the movies) added more complexity to his character, that he was almost remorseful of what he'd done. There's a scene in The Two Towers where Grima sees the massive Uruk-hai army Saruman had mustered to kill his countrymen, and Grima shed a single tear with a look on his face of "what have I done?"
Interesting point about Grima's tear upon witnessing the Uruk army outside Orthanc.
I had always thought that tear was out of awe for his master's accomplishment.
But now I think I agree with your interpretation. I think that the seeds of regret were sown right then in Grima Womtongue.
The Fellowship will always be my favorite of the three. I love all three of those movies and I cry like a Baby at the end of ROTK, but Fellowship, every time I watch it, somehow makes me feel like I'm watching it for the first time when I hear Gandalf humming away as he enters the Shire and I can't name many movies that have ever made me feel that once.
Also, Aragorn releasing the ghosts I never had an issue with because it's to show that he's a man of honor truly worthy of being a king. The entire trilogy hammers home how man would use the ring to fight Sauron ultimately delivering the ring right back into his hands. Aragorn is not like other men, he's not the man he was in Fellowship, he's now ready to take the throne and bring honor to the ushering age of men. It's better that way in my opinion. That's why Gimli says that they could be useful and not Aragorn.
The Ride of the Rohirrim is the best cinematic scene of all time imo, and Return of King is one of the best movies of all time!!!
The signal scene has a lot within it that I think makes it so iconic. Not only does each beacon represent the fires of hope igniting across the land, but it does a great job at conveying time and distance. The scope of the torch system shows how far away these places are from one another not only through their positions but also the time it takes for them all to be lit. If you notice, a whole night passes before the last beacon is lit and Aragorn sees it, which really adds to the scope of the world. Also, and I'm not sure if this was intentional, but it is sandwiched between a great juxtaposition of Denethor and Théoden as leaders. Just as the Amon Din is lit, you see Denethor, (the pretender king for all intents and purposes) slinking in the shadows, hiding from his duties in a sense. When it cuts to Théoden's scene he acts as a true King and exudes leadership, duty, and strength. Even when he says "And Rohan will answer. Muster the Rohirrim!" he projects his voice and has such a commanding presence. It definitely sells that Théoden is still great man, even if he is lesser than his predecessors. I know who I would rather follow into battle, that is for sure.
This is a communication method the ancient Celtic peoples used un Gaul, I've read. I mean, I guess signal fires are nothing new. Even tho some of the mountain peaks are just ridiculous to imagine soldiers being stationed there, I love this scene
Denethor was actually the greatest of his line in a long time. The movies really did him poorly, he once was a truly great man. I believe the books even described him of having a presence second only to Aragorn. He was in contact with Sauron for years and only at the end did he lose his mind.
Yeah the treatment of Denethor by both director and actor was truly the great tragedy of this film. It seemed that neither had a hint of who Denethor was, instead relying on the tried and tested "Mad King" act. The fact that Gandalf smacked him in the face with his staff was truly the last straw for me for this film. You say Tolkien placed him on par with Aragon, but Denethor held his own against Gandalf, a Maia. I'll paraphrase Pippin's thoughts here as he observed the stare down to end all stare downs between the two, but he "saw them as very tall men, fighting a silent battle of wills, and (really paraphrasing now) with lightning shooting from and into eachother's eyes".
Just one of, unfortunately, too many mistakes or errors in judgment for me to rate the final film positively.
I have to say that for all the love I have for this trilogy of films, the treatment of Gimli (who has some very good scenes, and John Rhys-Davies is always awesome, but he's played way too much for cheap laughs, especially in the third film) and Denethor is the only thing that truly bugs me about them. Boromir was also initially portrayed as very antagonistic, but the way the audience perceived him evolved with Aragorn's own relationship with Boromir, which was actually a very clever plot device, and the Osgiliath scene in Two Towers added even more layers to him. But Denethor... is just mad, he has no agency left as a ruler, he's there to be a thorn in Gandalf's side before the Witch-King takes over, and that's it. At least John Noble is having fun with the role, he has some truly great lines, but yes, the writing drops the ball, especially when comparing him to his literary equivalent. Interestingly, I feel like PJ/Philippa/Fran did the same mistake ten years later with Thranduil, who is also portrayed as a ruler made ruthless by the loss of someone dear to him (his wife, in this instance) but again, it's shoe-horned and he comes accross as an annoying dick rather than a sympathetic character, but that's just my two cents, of course!
I like these Drinker Extended Universe videos where all the heroes team up
Az’s cat is fucking adorable.
I don’t like how this is shorter than the movie. If there was any time to go full Longman, this movie was it
The fact that Samwise the Brave really became to be when he appeared in front of Shelob. No fear, just cold, cool line: "let him go, you filth." And "I cannot carry it for you, but I can carry you." always gets a tear in my eye.
I haven’t watched these movies for at least 15 years. But still, the line ‘I can’t carry it for you… but I can carry you’ hits pretty damn deep. There’s so much embedded into that one line, so much built up into it, to the point that you don’t need to rewatch the whole series to get that feeling again. 4 dudes rambling on a podcast, no set up, no popcorn, no nothin. Then someone delivers the line and BAM it just puts you back into that moment when you first heard it.
People should know that much of Theoden's poetry at Helm's Deep is from an Anglo Saxon poem the Wanderer, and a fair bit of his speech at Minas Tirith references the Norse Poem Ragnarok. In the book it's a bit different as he calls his men to ride to the city, but when Eomer takes over the host after finding the king dead and his sister apparently slain beside him that is when they go back to Ragnarok and he roars ~To the death, and the world's ending!.
On the show Vikings Gustaf Skarsgaard shouts some lines from the same poem, only in the original Norse, and in video games I'll use it as a battle cry for my characters sometimes.
Isn't it amazing to see these works still represented and used in our age? Timeless works.
I love hearing you guys nerd out on what you love and why
All my nerd friends are woke so I can't ever dive deep into analyzing and comparing old vs new stories. Have to live it vicariously through you guys. THanks!
Unfortunately, I began joining the geek culture when it started to noticeably drop around 2016.
Talk about showing up to the party when the cops break it up.
@@TheB00tyWarrior ouch yeah that is the year it really showed up. The decade before that was the party at its height. When corporations joined in but didn't see the fans as enemies.
@@darthbiscuit it's a recurring theme in my life to show up late lmfao.
But seriously, all the cosplay communities, role-playing, board games, fan films; it looked like yall were having some serious fun.
Ah ya I got my woke nerd friends and my sane, normal, well adjusted nerd friends
"A sword day! A red day!"
Ride now!
@@georgechapman9688 "Ride for ruin, and the world's ending!"
2:23:25 "The power you have within you doesn't always define how good you are as a person."
Dude you nailed it right there.
58:00 - In the books, the primary relationship between Frodo and Sam isn't one of friend and friend, but of Master and Servant. Merry and Pippen are better friends with Frodo than Sam is at the start of the story.
I like how appropriate is is that Sam, a gardener, is the one who has to deal with the giant spider. ‘Twas ever thus…
He rolled up sting to whack the spider
“I have passed the test.. I will diminish and go into the west”
Artistic licence was taken with Gollum sinking in the lava at the last. Lava is far more dense than a body, unlike water.
Gollum would have fallen onto the surface of the lava, remained there and burst into flames.
The Ring however, being solid metal (infused with evil, calculating, manipulative magic!) is more dense than lava and so would sink and hence melt into liquid in the lava.
At the end,
Frodo wanted the ring,
Gollum wanted the ring,
They were both acting out of evil, and so,
Two Negatives make a Positive.
And the Ring is destroyed.
I realized that I had a lot of favorite scenes in this one. Like "I am no man!" and near the end, "My friends!? You bow, to no one." Gets me every time. I got to get a copy of the extended version.
“Touching your cap to the squire may be damn bad for the squire but it’s damn good for you" -- JRR Tolkien.
Remember, the man thought that power corrupted. You can also see the weight of the Ring as the weight of responsibility Frodo feels. "I will take the Ring to Mordor, though I do not know the way" is another clue to Tolkien's idea of what holding power and responsibility is really like.
Have any of you out there ever had a responsibility that you had no idea how to fulfill? At a certain point, the squire is not to be envied.
What a great panel. It’s so nice to really go into all the points that connect people to these movies.
Watched all 3 happy hours in preparation for the re-release of the extended versions in imax. Thank you, gentlemen.
the actors still have almost anual reunions because of the bonds made filming this. I have a niece that worked in New Zealand for a bit and she got into the position of having to babysit kids for crew while they went to the reunion.
Thank you for this guys, really needed it!:)
uncut version is like 6 movies instead of 3 its the best uncut movie edition ever made
I was working in a pub in Soho (the Ship, Wardour Street), when one evening, Bernard Hill (King Theoden) came in with his Tesco bags.
I didn't know if it was really him, but I had my iPod with me, so I plugged it into the sound-system, and played the Riders of Rohan theme.
He'd been tapping his feet to the other music I'd played, but stopped when the theme played.
Later, as he left, I stepped out of the bar to speak to him.
"Excuse me," quoth I, "Are you Bernard Hill?"
"So what if I am?" he gruffly retorted.
"But you're Theoden, King!"
And he shoved me in the centre of my chest, really hard. And I was going down like a sack of sh*t. And I was scared, and he had a real fire in his eyes, and I thought I'd really p*ssed him off.
But just at the point of no return, he caught me, grabbing me hard, and gave me a massive bear-hug - a real rib-squeezer, and he just whispered loudly into my ear, "Thank you for the music. We'll be back".
And then he left, leaving me a bit out of breath, and rather euphoric.
I'd just got a bear-hug from King Theoden.
He got into character for me, for that moment.
F*cking amazing.
Great actor.
Lovely man.
I'll remember that moment for ever.
Incredible casting.
It's so nice to hear people that love these movies as much as I do. Well done, lads.
I get chills just hearing you guys talk about the movie.
That's how good this movie is. Unbelievable!
We will never see anything like this again.
King Theodin with the Uber Chad moment - Riding first as the tip of the spear in the last ride of the Rohirrim!
*Love* the conversation, guys!
In the book, the Army of the Dead was held by Aragorn's will, which took a huge mental toll. Just to capture the Black Fleet took all of his strength, even with the support of the Sons of Elrond.
The Witchking breaking the staff always worked in my head, showing his power in this hour of doom. I think it's in Return of the King, or the appendices, it's explained the Witchking's power at the Pellenor Fields is jacked up because Sauron is extending his reach, focusing his power on Gondor, so I dunno, given that Sauron is the left hand of the devil, it just always worked for me this sorcerer, channeling Sauron's power was more than able to overpower Gandalf in such a desperate hour, and the relief of the sudden arrival of Rohirrim brings new hope and the power of fear again recedes and that's why the Witchking takes off again.
The Scouring of the Shire is a lot like vets returning from WWI and WWII to find foreign ideologies had invaded their homes while they were fighting it overseas. It is important in the book.
For the Army of the Dead, they were sworn to come to the aid of their allies, they didn't, they were cursed to linger as ghosts, and they were freed from being ghosts when they aided Aragorn, so keeping them would have pretty much guaranteed betrayal because ARAGORN would have been an oathbreaker.
Listening a year later .... talking about the music, during the charge the music was meloncholy reflecting the almost futulity of their attack. Most would have been tempted to have an upbeat score to highlight the heroism of the charge ... Shore scored it perfectly.
After bingeing most of your vids in about a week, I came to genuinely respect your passion for storytelling and knowledge of how it should be done. I agree with your emphasis on well-written, believable characters that you can enjoy going on a journey with. And the deepest, most fundamental aspects of your criticism have inspired me to finally do something. Something I knew I wasn’t ready for when I first imagined it.
For the last 20 years, I have written roughly 1 million words for friends and family, with the simple purpose of earning adequate skill at storytelling. I honed my writing, and even ultimately benefited from deep, painful personal struggles, so that I could finally tell a specific short story. It complements and builds up one of your favorite films. And, incidentally, it also showcases many examples of genuine masculinity displayed in a variety of ways.
Further, I feel it sets a very high bar for what respectful, quality “fanfiction” should strive to be. Upholding a beloved work. Understanding it, valuing it, and forgiving any supposed flaws. Contributing a modest addition to someone else’s great legacy. Underscoring and deepening the arc of an already beloved character. Teaching the same positive lessons with the same noble themes, in a slightly different way. Honoring the work, the creator of that work, and all those who have come to love it for what it is.
I strove to keep it focused, purposeful, limiting it to just 22,000 words. It may not be perfect, but it certainly tries to be. I hope you will consider giving it a read. Based on what you’ve shown everyone of your true self (behind your hilarious outward persona), I believe you will approve of these efforts. You may be uplifted and proud for having put forth the time to read it. And you will then enjoy going back to watch your favorite trilogy yet again, perhaps getting even more out of the experience.
The tale is humbly posted, amidst countless others, on fanfiction.net, under the title “The Children of Rohan,” by WillDreamer.
Thanks guys, I didn't even know there is Extended versions. I'm in for a treat. Cheers! :-)
this was a great stream, I really like Lauren Southerns video on Tolkien, it goes to show you how far removed he was from the current progressives and how much of a Chad he was.
Ian McKellen acts with his eyes 👀
1:23:03
The Ride of the Rohirrim and the siege of Minis Tirith was inspired by, or mirrors, many different events in history. One of them was the siege and battle of Vienna. In 1683, Vienna was besieged for 2 months by the Ottoman Turk Muslim empire, a force numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Vienna had started with only 15,000 defenders, and over the course of the siege lost most of them, with only 3000 remaining. Frantic pleas for help were sent out to all of Europe.
Other Christian nations came to Vienna's defense, including Polish, Lithuanian, German, Venetian, Austrian, and Italian, led by the Polish King John III Sobieski, numbering roughly 70,000 men, including cavalry. At the nick of time the Christian reinforcements arrived. On September 12th, the reinforcements arrived and the battle occurred. The infantry was the first to arrive and engaged while the Ottomans were mainly focused on making it into the city. Later that day the cavalry arrived, and at 6pm the largest cavalry charge in history occurred. 18,000 cavalry, in 4 different attack groups, led by Sobieski and his 3,000 Winged Hussars, charged down the hills to save Vienna, and broke the Ottoman army. Their efforts saved all of Europe from being conquered by the Ottomans.
The passage from the Return of the King:
A smell of burning was in the air and a very shadow of death. The horses were uneasy. But the king sat upon Snowmane, motionless, gazing upon the agony of Minas Tirith, as if stricken suddenly by anguish, or by dread. He seemed to shrink down, cowed by age. Merry himself felt as if a great weight of horror and doubt had settled on him...
They were too late! Too late was worse than never!...
Then suddenly Merry felt it at last, beyond doubt: a change. Wind was in his face! Light was glimmering...But at that same moment there was a flash, as if lightning had sprung from the earth beneath the City. For a searing second it stood dazzling far off in black and white, its topmost tower like a glittering needle: and then as the darkness closed again there came rolling over the fields a great boom.
At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before:
"Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!"
With that he seized a great horn from Guthláf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. And straightway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountains.
"Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!"
Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.
This discussion is one of the best I have seen showing how great movies and other great art moves the emotions and imagination and enriches conversation and everything else. You are discussing Tolkien’s creation and what Jackson and his team built with it, but your insightful conversation is actually creative too. Thank you.
I am old and my life has an increasing number of sad and frightening issues, as happens to most people. There is an art in finding subjects, environments, people, images, imaginations, entertainments that support my positivity. (I am not religious.) It is easy to despair, but infinitely better to fight that blackness. The Tolkien works and Jackson’s Lord of the Rings are among the forces that lift me, and that is precious. Your wonderful conversation did too.
I agree that the scouring of the Shire was better left out of the movie trilogy. It would have been too much, not only runtime and plot complication but also a soul punch just when we were feeling happy and fulfilled. And it would have made a particularly powerful scene impossible: when the returning hobbits are back in their village pub among people they have known all their lives and wordlessly realize, looking into each other’s eyes, that THEY have been changed fundamentally and forever. I think Saruman’s destruction of the Shire was one more angry salvo by Tolkien against destructive industrialization, showing how nowhere is safe. It’s a justified development, but it would not have fit in the movie either technically or psychologically. A wise decision to leave it out as they did.
This stream was pretty emotional, recapturing those feelings from the theatre. It was like watching ROTK all over again.
Good stories bring people together more than anything else. It’s beautiful.
"My friends! You bow to no one" my god did this make me bawl my eyes out!
always figured the green beam from minas morgul is creating the cloudcover for the orcs so they can march without sun
I was 5 years old, my first time at theatres and even paying attention to a movie and fellowship of the ring was my first.
That movie nearly possessed me as a kid. Remember the 2 hour long drive back and me, my dad and uncle talking about it all the way back.
So good, so spoiled.
Dad took day off work, took me out of school and We went back to see it again the next day.
Also in the books for his failure saruman is attacked by the 9 but while in his power centre is able to fend them off.
Gandalf and the other wizards were forbidden by Manwe to contest power with power but sent to inspire the hearts of men!
1:40:00
Part of the reason I love Warhammer 40k so much is the same reason...in a totally grimdark universe where people barely scrape by at the best of times one little heroic action...one last stand of one squad of guardsman...against hopeless odds and yet that moment of sacrifice is all the more important and poignant
I have all the extended editions, they are amaze-balls, I'm going to watch them again in honor of this episode.
I’m watching this the week the Rings of Power is released. This has been a catharsis. Love your work Drinker!
The Frodo/Sam relationship is based on Tolkien's experience as an army officer and his "bat man." Tolkien was in awe of the hard work and dedication that the NCOs had to the officers. The bat men are not wealthy like the officers. They weren't educated. They were salt of the Earth, simple, good men. The pure hearted, poor, scared, pious soldiers are ALWAYS the real heroes of any war. It's beautiful.
Just you guys talking about the Ride of the Rohirrim gave me chills thinking back on it
These LOTR 20th retrospective videos hold up extremely well, as 95% of your predictions for 2023 came to pass regarding Amazon's Counterfeit Rings and film in general. I will always think of JAWS as the mark when story-telling, plot, and character development saved the movie from special effects gremlins, the original Star Wars trilogy as the moment when story-telling and practical effects melded perfectly, and LOTR as the ultimate marriage of special effects and story to produce a cinema masterpiece.
Yah, the extended edition is quite superior, yet I would keep the cinematic cut.... The army of the dead must be left for last.
@24:22 that Saruman impression by MauLer was godly
Would have been good for CD and the other 2 explaining to people outside the UK the impact Bernard Hill had in his portrayal
of 'Yosser Hughes' in the 80's TV drama, 'Boy's from the blackstuff'. An unemployed man and his decent into insanity.
He was so into the character, people were worried for his own mental health. Look for clips. Amazing acting.
The undead men were cursed for failing to honor an oath to come to the defense of Gondor if I remember right, so I think the idea in the movie was that their oath was fulfilled after they defended Gondor. Either way, just for screenplay reasons I don't think there's any way to explain where else they would have gotten reinforcments from like in the book. There would have been no setup either way, so it would have felt like a Deus Ex Machina regardless I think.
The Elves have now left us...