Seminar: Roux vs. CFOP - A Method Comparison - Kian Mansour [Best in the West 2018]
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2018
- I worked really hard on this seminar, and I think this is one of the most important things I've done in my cubing career so far. I hope everyone enjoys this and can learn a thing or two.
Huge thanks to the AlbertaCubers for hosting this competition, inviting me to go out there, and encouraging me to do a seminar. Last but definitely not least, I want to thank Mr. Christian Chow for filming and editing the seminar!
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Kian rhymes with Neon - Розваги
People cubing in the background...
Is someone solving a Rubik's brand like 2 feet away from the camera???
*3 feet
there'd be something wrong if there wasn't someone solving a puzzle. if there ever is a slight of hand person that got cheating by swapping cubes and WCA bannned ppl from bringing extra cubes (to play with between their solves) to their table while competing, everyone competing would get a violation. At first, as new cuber I thought it was a compulsion but its what cubers do . . .
🤣🤣🤣
Your presentation skills are incredible at 17. I'm really glad that you're making a name for Roux. Single WR is yours. I really hope someday that you get it!
Thank you so much!
This was super well put together! I especially like the section analyzing illogical arguments. I get so frustrated when it feels like 90% of people don’t know how to construct logical arguments lol.
Thanks for doing this
Thanks a lot Graham! I missed your seminar at nats but watched it afterwards, that was really awesome too! It really opened my eyes to how the best mblders go about improving techniques for memo
Also, I think your presentation is very well thought out. You're a smart guy and you've really put a lot of work into this unbiased study of the two most popular methods.
Thanks so much!!! I'm glad you like it
Not gonna lie, you don't look 17.. More like 21
Thats true
it's the facial hair
Eshan ha
DrewCubes so true
He looks like James Harden now😂
k, going to come back in ten years and see if you're right. i think you'll be off by half a second or more.
So 3.5 global then?
Your assuming UA-cam will still be around by then . or the internet.
@@Kian_Mansour ithink we will never have sub 3.5 avg, its a little bit too fast, like mid or low 4s is belivable but.... Idk what future brings, maybe we will have different method and have 2s global avgs.
@@zbigniewdelikowski982 hardware doesn't have much space to improve and it's nearly impossible to global 2, currently the fastest full-step solves are all 4s w/ maybe a few 3s.
@@zbigniewdelikowski982hahaha WR avg is 4.48 now.
I feel so proud of you and our community
Thanks so much!
Lol
This is honestly the best seminar I have ever listened to
Thanks so much!
I switched to roux yesterday, i chose the decision, which was very hard bec ive been cubing with cfop 3 years and im sub 8.5 with that, but im progressing quickly with roux, but most important thing i have a lot more fun with that method!
Thank you Kian for this interesting study. I learned Roux from your UA-cam tutorials and it really fits my hands! I love the M moves.
Brilliant seminar Kian.This seminar is gonna be the go to resource for anyone who is confused about a particular method and wants to make an informed choice :-)
Thank you! I hope so haha
Or you could just use Hawaiian Kociemba
One person in the SS forum is seriously using it and having sub-10 singles.
BrokeWebDeveloper me
This was very nice and helpful 👍
I was thinking of learning roux ,and this made me get excited 😊
Going to watch your tutorials 🏃♀️
i cannot believe this guy was 2 years older than me at this point so knowledgable and composed
Great seminar! Didn’t think that you were that good at seminars but dang u knocked it out of the park
Great seminar!
your cfop estimations are so accurate they are exactly what Wang YiHeng is doing right now
4.69 ao5 crazy
i cant wait to see someone get those times with roux...
i actually want to be that person so if you got any tips fo me pls tell me
Yay I'm glad you did this.
This is really accurate! Nicely done!
Very great comparison vid!
Essentially the conclusion is they are equal on 3x3 and it comes down to cuber 'playstyle'. Prefer algorithms? Go CFOP. Prefer intuitive? Go Roux.
Thanks for the shoutout!
I want do expand a bit more on roux feet for those who aren't in CF and didn't see my comment. This was my estimate on how fast roux feet can get:
I average 44-45 moves in 2H slow solves, so that should be possible in feet as well. In blocks, the ability to use a lot of F/B moves in SB makes up for not being able to do slice moves. Being able to possibly use some shorter CMLLs and do EOFB for bad EOLR cases should get the movecount down to 43ish.
I have basically no idea about the TPS cap, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to turn nearly as fast for F2B+CMLL as CFOP. As for LSE, I'm fairly confident at least 2 TPS is possible, based on the fact that with about 3 days of practice I can get ~1 TPS and I feel like I have a lot of room for improvement.
Ok so let's say 30 moves for F2B+CMLL at 2.5 TPS and 13 moves for LSE at 2 TPS. I'm pretty sure that's doable, probably could be improved too.
(30 moves /2.5 TPS)+(13 moves /2 TPS) = 18.5 seconds
After this estimation I got a GTS3M, which has some amazing slices for feet. My TPS improved so much instantly (already reached 2.5 TPS in an H perm in about 30 minutes with the cube) that I feel quite confident to say that LSE could also get to 2.5 TPS. So my new estimate is:
43 moves /2.5 TPS = 17.2 seconds
Woah that's insane! I'm looking forward to seeing how far you can get with Roux feet! Thanks for your input!
I'll do my best
THANK YOU!!!!!!!! I will make a more informed decision now. I think I am going to switch from CFOP to Roux but I'm not sure
I'm less than a month on Roux and I've surpassed my CFOP times, but learning Roux seems to have improved my CFOP solves, too.
kian i love your content man your awesome
as a new cuber looking to go past beginner method . . . this helps
1:00 PB with beginners cfop in bout a month
0:35 PB with roux in a week
Thank you!
Hey, I learnt Roux from your tutorials. I average(sub 25) the same with Roux and CFOP and I am considering switching to Roux for OH only. btw, nice seminar. #rouxvolution
Nice job on the seminar👍
Thank you!
For CFOP, most people believe sub-3 is possible for sure. 37 moves (like a pll skip and easy x-cross and stuff) at 13 tps, which you yourself said is possible. However, sub 3 would also be possible with Roux, getting a lucky solve at a sub-30 move move count and your 11 TPS figure. So, basically, your opinion stands. There is slim to none difference between potential speeds for each method. It all comes down to prefrence
I'm not talking about singles. I'm talking about global average, so we can't consider skips.
An interesting presentation. The only reason for me to choose CFOP is because there are more resources online to learn from.
Yes, this was almost why I went with cfop instead of Roux, but I just had fun with Roux alot more so I went with Roux.
For some reason I can’t get the hang of roux, but it seems like a good method for people who can get on to it
I like both method but if need to choose one another i'll use cfop cuz im more comfortable with cfop xd but i think i'll try to learn roux for *science hehe*
Yea I'm pretty sure that it's Rubik's cube (I mean Roux-bik's cube) and not the CFOP-bik's cube.
I would be interested in how this presentation would go now that people are learning ZBLS+ZBLL would the reduction in movecount for ZBLS+ZBLL make the ZB method faster than roux or have advancements in roux meant that it's still mostly parity.
The mic is way to far... it’s really hard to hear with all the reverb. Cool talk though
Is there a reason why in PLL the turnspeed is considered to be faster than in OLL? (or COLL / CMLL)?
I have build an roux robot with c++, and it averages around 43 moves, (5 +14 + 11 + 13)
but the first block is so efficient because he is complete color neutral and can build 24 different first blocks
Hit like at 1:25 for correct pronunciation of ZZ, and the comments suggest the rest is going to be good. I'd have switched to Roux around 2010 if I didn't like bigcubes more than 3x3, I enjoy it casually but I'm bad at it.
Speaking of combining steps for roux, maybe pseudo f2b?
Awesome!
Everytime I try doing one block first I keep messing up and end up doing both blocks together still aver 22 ssconds
I made some 22 TPS Y perms and 24 TPS Jb perms before, I think that PLL TPS can reach up to 18+ if you turn really fast.
Probably not consistently though, 15 would be a good number
when talking about human limits, we're talking about perfection (almost). So I don't think inconsistency should be considered at all since we're saying the cuber will always do everything "perfectly"
Love from India
Do you still hold your view after Yiheng Wang's performance?He does the CF in an amazing way.
My school should have this kind of seminars too tbh lol
there's something important missing here, yiheng gets 3-5 move second pairs pretty much every solve thanks to his amazing inspection skills so at a perfect level in theory, cfop is slightly better than this mentions
sound quality is a little bit bad in the video,sad :(
But what is with big cubes? I think its really hard to use it in the last stage so for big cubes only CFOP is viable.
You're 17 ? I am 18 here ... I started cubing in 2012 , but I stopped training seriously a few years ago . Now I started yet again and I avg around low 13 , with a PB avg5/12 of 10.73/11.77 .
I use Roux because
1. C-fop confused me at first
2. Me and my friend started at the same time, now were racing to sub 30. Edit: He uses C-Fop, I use Roux
3. I watched your videos and it clicked almost instantly because you didn't go as slow like a lot of other cubers, so I just wanted to say thank you!
Just use whatever you like, someone might just come up with a better method tomorrow
Thank
This makes me really want to get good at a method. Side note, anyone want to try and estimate this for ZZ and Petrus?
At this point, almost everyone agrees that ZZ and Petrus are both inferior to CFOP and Roux.
That it was really good
So good Seminar! I am new with Roux and i like it more then CFOP Also i made you the fan art😂
Yoo welcome to the revolution
@@amateurapple rouxvelution
All the cubing in the background sounds like flash photography paparazzi
Nice.
Thanks Miki!
Sorry if this is not related into cubing but I'm a cuber also haha. May I know what's your haircut?
Hahaha I have no idea, just number 3 on the sides and long on top i guess
You r great
In CFOP you could get oll or pll skip. Are there any type of skips for roux?
Yes. Skips in LSE are common-ish. LSE is split in 3 parts (4a, 4b and 4c) you can get a skip for any of those parts.
Call skip?
I've been contemplating changing to Roux, because I've been struggling with CFOP to get sub-20. I know how to solve with Roux and it's really fun and just feels so much better. Plus, M moves are my favourite and fastest moves. Thanks Kian, you might push me to the Roux side haha. (REALLY GOOD SEMINAR BTW BOI)
Xenon I'm the same, except I use LBL and idk if I want to learn CFOP or Roux, but I prefer Roux right now
I have my first comp in a couple months, so i'm going to stick with CFOP for now. CFOP is really easy for LBL solvers due to many similarities. The only differences are that CFOP has F2L which is the strongest feature in CFOP. It's a hard decision. I also want to get into OH and i believe Roux for OH is the best method.
Xenon yeah I mostly use LBL with 4LLL and average about 36s, however with my own custom version of Roux, I average about 52s
Just try and learn the Roux steps really well if you want to stick to Roux, like being efficient with moves because that's the best thing about Roux. Don't focus on TPS until you get really good. I averaged sub40 when i stopped solving with LBL and started slowing massively when i started CFOP. It just happens. Kian has some really useful tutorials on his channel such as his Sub X series.
Xenon I really want to use Roux, but I want to learn actual Roux before I use it as my main method instead of my quickly slapped together filler method
Nice seminar,
Idk if this was talked about or something and i didnt hear it but, what do you think of normal Roux vs Pinky Pie, since OLLCP avg is about 12.4ish moves with AUF i think and placing down UFUB or ULUR in place of DFDB shouldn't take much moves assuming you do some sort of influencing in SB
Pinkie pie is bad.
why though, would be interested to know
Here's a quick summary: It's estimated that pinkie pie saves 1-2 moves on average compared to normal Roux. A lot of the moves you save by forcing solved EOLR after CMLL are wasted by the longer algorithm and the setup. In terms of speed, setup and OLLCP will always be slower than doing a super fast CMLL and then spamming TPS in a nice EOLR
pinkie pie is good if you only do it when the setups are 0-1 moves away. but that's more
ollcp than pinkie.
i believe in intermediate comparison roux totally wins cuz i was sub 40 at cfop and well i wanted to learn stuff like xcross and stuff but with roux there are no wierd methods its just straight forward first block, second block , cmll and lse
kian i cant find any good tutorials for roux, you seem great at explaining could you plz make an advanced tutorial series??
Most people don't use CFOP because of algs. But I came to Roux because I suck with Cfop and I never could break sub 50 with a year of practice. Switched to Roux, 1 month, sub 30 boom
Vigneshwar X19 I’m good at learning Algs but I switched to roux cuz it’s fun lmao
Awesome!
Where did you learn roux from?
I learned it from Donovan's tutorial on the Lubix Cube tutorial. Nowadays I'd recommend my own beginner tutorial
@@Kian_Mansour ohk, btw I had already started your method... Which I've got to say the series you've made is mind blowing!
Kian
That was some mad quality
So what about roux for big cubes? Doing this analysis would give a slower etps for the m slices, making the limmit worse for roux. So if someone wants to practice bigcubes and 3x3, then its overall more efficient to just use cfop. Or would you argue differently?
I answered that question near the end of the seminar
@@Kian_Mansour oh whoops, some of the questions werent very audible
What do you think of the LMCF method? Seems to me that it has potential. It's more similar to Roux than to CFOP, so I thought to ask your opinion.
No idea what that is
@@Kian_Mansour It's a 3x3 method, stands for "Low Movecount Corners First", here are some links: 1. www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/LMCF 2. www.speedsolving.com/threads/full-lmcf-3x3-method-now-available.63998/
3. ua-cam.com/video/kUJ1XEZ0AzQ/v-deo.html
That seems really slow lol
Hey Kian, I asked myself, Roux or Cfop? I really want to switch to roux but there's many thing I need to adjust😭 . If I switch to roux:
2h wouldn't be a problem
Oh, small hands, hard M and M2 but easy M'. Im using my finger to push the M layer backwards, so hard to do it.
4x4, I'm hoya solver, Meyer is related to yau but I really hated yau.
5x5 - 7x7, hard to do m slices
Use both Roux and CFOP!
Kyle Dimaano I personally think M’ is easier than M in OH
Cfop imo is slightly better at 2h expecially if you learn many different alg sets. but is MUCH better at big cubes.
My gosh!!!! You are still 17? Man!!!! Deym!!! I thought you are 27 haha! Any way I can sense the ROUXVOLUTION😊
Haha yep I'm 17. ROUXVOLUTION IS COMING
Or you could just use hexagonal fransico
VepiumOfficial agree
I do roux because it is rly fun
That sounds very reasonable.
Just use both
Maybe future of speedcubing is method neutral? Like roux/cfop/ other methods?
What do you mean?
Abhijeet is currently using it
*applying Roux Concept on Cfoo
29:33 SAAAAAMMME
I'm sub-15 on CFOP I'm thinking to change to Roux because I think that cfop contains too many algs n subset to learn nd we have to keep our lookahead well for efficient solves and do multislotting too,I don't like all that in cfop but in roux there is not much algs and its based on logic much and tps is not required to be much faster that's why I'm thinking to switch to Roux but the reason why I'm not switching is because most of the WR are set by Cfop solvers and it has many videos to help out rather than Roux......What should I do?plz help me I'm very confused....my heart says roux n mind says cfop😅
Follow your heart
@@Kian_Mansour but than I'm confused,I have so many doubts to be clear.....can I talk wid u personally on Instagram?or other social media?
Arceus God learn some of both, and practice both. You'll know which one you want to do later on
@@GeometryDashProgam3r yes bro I'm also thinking that only😊
Arceus God right now I know a method which is a mix of both, with some 2x2 algs thrown in, don't ever limit yourself
Or you could use petrus
Cfop is the best method for one-footed 4x4 pizza Multi-Blind relay guildford race
Rubikslub3 nah sll is good
Kian Mansour is your cmll one look algorithm make your own.... I can solve roux method sub25... And want to start one look. Thank you kian I can solve roux with the help of you.
Yep the algs are mine. You're welcome!
Do cll algs for 2x2 work for cmll?
ToasterToastsToast Maybe a few of them might, but you’ll have to look out for where the F2B edges go. Essentially, any R or L move in 2x2 CLL might need to be an Rw or Lw move on 3x3, which would work, but is likely to be less finger-trick-y.
Yeah i use that and I have a avg of 4 from roux I'm still working out the kinks or quick finger tricks
A good metric would be which is fastest to get fast at. If i can get sub 30 in cfop in 6 months but it would take me a year in roux then why would i do roux
I dont think it would take that long
I have been doing Roux for like a month and I have become sub 1 minute now
I personally tried roux, cfop, petrus, and freefop and zz, and even corners-first, I don't know the full method for most, but I like cfop most, I still enjoy using roux, it helped me learn ZZ and petrus, but I will say that roux should be tried, I think it's unfair to use a method, and say the other ones are bad, (not saying thats what you did), I would love to see a more alg based roux method, instead of intuition. I like this seminar.
use cfce it’s basically f2l + cmll without the m and m stands for mad so therefore cfce is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than crop and roux combineddd
Plus ell
Learning algorithms is not fun. I don't use full Roux method, I use first block, second block, and then basically two look CMLL, where I use the algorithms that have the 4 edges solved to orient the four corners and then I permutate the four corners usually with one alg. And then M slice and U moves and voila. I'm done. I think Roux is more fun than CFOP, and to me that's more important than getting to sub 20, sub 10 or anything else. I'm making more progress with Roux and I'm getting faster. With CFOP I was hitting a plateau pretty early on, got stuck on learning algorithms and ended up not liking it much and it made me go to the 2x2x2 and doing several hundred solves on that before I learned Roux.
Learning algorithms isn't fun per say, but it isn't difficult either; the more algorithms you learn, the easier it gets. Standard CFOP algs are also generally really ergonomic: PLL is solid, (and EPLLs are downright beautiful).
I like this video
I use CFOP because most cubers use it and most top SpeedCubers use it
torille
Ok
Do you play Tetris?
No but I used to play a bit
Lol, that question came out of nowhere...
I just broke my bp 17.623
Cfop-more moves, easier f2l look ahead so faster turning speed.
Roux-less moves but SB and LSE have pretty harder look ahead so you may need to turn slower BUT a really good solver won't really need to look ahead much for SB because they can predict where SB pieces are going to be during inspection. Also roux has no rotations and considerably less algs to learn. Only about 40 compared to Cfops 70+. Also roux CN is easier. My opinion on why roux is better and I'm talking about vanilla roux and cfop
LSE lookahead is easier than LL lookahead imo, less algs/things to learn
@@ThibaudOU there is no algs for LSE just triggers. But still look ahead may be difficult for pieces can be in the back bottom which you can't see. It's really only difficult when it comes to l4e and it's a 3cycle
I know Kian and Iuri (I think) one look or at least do EOLR in one look consistently. I still don't know people who can one look LL consistently though
@@ThibaudOU no one 1 looks LSE, but I do see full EOLR and 4c look ahead is very easy.
@@ThibaudOU luri said it but nobody one looks lse, kian practiced and tried it before I remember seeing him doing videos on it a couple years ago and it's just too many cases. I also dont thiml anybody one looks LL for cfop either but I havent cubed in about a year so maybe cfops evolved further
17!!! You look older than that.
The problem of roux is bigger cubes, M slices are DREADFUL on big cubes. Also, if you use Yau, you can't really use roux. Thats why I use CFOP
Meyer is the Yau equivalent for Roux
I am not learning roux is bcz if i need to practise big cubes roux is bad CFOP is better so i cant manage both cfop on big cube (3x3 stage) roux on 3x3 2H so.....
Also on megamix
Good choice, but I'm more stick to the 3x3 so I chose roux😁
I really find Roux an interesting method, however I can’t get it to work, that’s why I use CFOP
Getting it work requires dedication and sticking with it. my first solve using Roux took me 8 minutes. by the end of the month i was sub 1 and now just after a year of practice i have a sub 15 PB.
@@bjkwolf9578 I completed learning Roux yesterday and it takes me about 3 minutes to do it and I don't even know any finger tricks and I sometimes mess up CMLL and LSE. I hope to get better
I think because our world record holder 🤣 feliks zemdegs is using cfop all are saying that it is the best bla bla bla
For me I could find that cfop has many algs in standard cfop around 100 and advanced (including zbll and 1ll) there are about 500 plus
And roux is just method without any rotaions
I started learning roux but I am unable to solve that lse 4b onwards with standard method so I now I am trying to memorize it hardly 60 algs including all intuitivez
Hope roux wins..... Thank u sir
And yes u look like 17 yrs old boy
. Thanks again...