How Sydney’s new Metro West line could transform the city
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- Опубліковано 30 лип 2024
- Sydney currently has 3 new metro lines under construction! In this video I look at the very ambitious Metro West, and see how its going to transform Sydney's transport network!
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With the Metro Northwest line already open, and the City & South West line set to open in a few months, I'm taking this opportunity to see what the future holds for Sydney's new Metro system. There are two other lines under construction, the Metro to Western Sydney Airport (which I want to do a future video on) and Metro West that will run from the Sydney CBD to Parramatta.
In this video I'm going to look at Metro West and see if it will be a truly valuable addition to Sydney's train network, and how it will impact other issues facing the city including its housing shortage. - Наука та технологія
Small correction: as some of you have commented, the budget blowouts mentioned actually apply to the city and south west part (phase 2) of the project rather than phase 1
More info: www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/13/nsw-government-launches-sydney-metro-review-amid-21bn-cost-blowout
If Australia decides to build HSR May as well go with maglev you’re going to blowout the budget anyway 😊
That’s correct. Depending on what you use as the benchmark it was under budget.
A billion under budget is a good result. We're quick to call out the blowouts but forget these.
@@Brendos74 It would be good to know if it was unrealised contingencies or some construction smarts.
For the location of the Hunter St station, I've heard from people who worked on the project that the only reason the station is there is because of the difficulty of building under the CBD (i.e. there's already so many tunnels etc under it that preclude many other options). Other options apparently were investigated but this was just the best one given the constraints
Edit: Also they are doing business cases for two extra stations between Olympic Park & Parramatta, not just rosehill. I think it's unlikely a silverwater station will happen given how limited land for industrial uses is in Sydney already, so maybe Newington given the stated reason the previous government declined to build one there was because an uplift in density wasn't desired?
It's a bit crazy that the original plan was for a Parramatta express, metros are usually about better transit rather than express from outer suburbs to CBD. It also makes less sense now that hybrid working has reduced the commute to CBD 5 day work mode.
@@DAEMTAMThe former government for some reason promised CBD to Parramatta in 25 minutes and weren't willing to budge.
Some of the proposals floating around showed this line extending out to Little Bay
Metro north west came in under budget. CBD and SW metro is over budget (mainly due to Covid). Metro North west has been successful because it connected major centres in the north west to the epping to chatswood area while also connecting to the existing bus and train services at interchanges and the Tway that connect to neighbouring suburbs.
Extending the Metro to take over the T-Way right of way between Parramatta and Liverpool, and then subsequently finishing the line to Glenfield would give a massive boost to transport in a sorely underserved area of Sydney. The fact that the Metro from the new Airport will not come to Leppington is sheer absurdity, but maybe extending the line from Glenfield down through Camden would be a better alternative. The right of way already essentially exists as it was laid out back when a train through Narellan was still a possibility.
The walk from Parramatta station to the new metro station is only 2-3 minutes. Better they did that than overcrowd the already overcrowded Parramatta station and it still pretty much serves as an interchange anyway.
Also Burwood North makes sense for a station as it is pretty underdeveloped and on Parra rd while Concord is all single story housing with bugger all conditions for any development. The walk from Burwood North to Burwood station still takes a while and this station will be heavily utilised.
Agree with this... Parramatta Station is already the 4th busiest in Sydney.
Adding more people on already crowded platforms is not without risk or problem.
Sure, it would be far more convenient to interchange, but that's exactly what Westmead is for - it's literally the interchange for people travelling from the west. Does it matter if those people interchange at Westmead or Parramatta on their way east as they bypass both destination? Absolutely not.
The only issue is as the video states those travelling from the Mountains or the regions, and that may be resolved in future with a stop at Westmead.
@@excapethematrix807 Also agree with this - the development potential of Burwood North is far greater than Concord... however I do agree with the video, a station slightly further north near Concord would have been more desirable if it were easier to increase density in Concord. It's too tricky for a number of reasons and is a missed opportunity - alas Concord may be destined for low density for a while.
Agreed - I think this will be a very easy connection, given that you can now walk straight across Parramatta Square on a very direct route. It's a shorter distance than between Central station suburban platforms and Railway Square.
It’s a short walk I agree, but I do still think they should build an underground tunnel to connect both stations for convenience. It’s just better to be more connected
Fully agree with your suggestion of more stations for the Metro West line, especially Rosehill (UWS campus nearby) & Silverwater. Extending the line to the new Western Sydney Airport from Westmead, using some of the existing T-way, would also be beneficial, for those living in the outer Western Suburbs with limited public transport options. Extending the line from Hunter St to St James Station (second CBD station), Taylor Square & Moore Park (SFS, SCG & Hordern Pavilion) & then Zetland/Randwick would also include a large catchment area. Sydney certainly needs a more integrated public transport system.
Some very valid suggestions. It’ll make life so much easier too with these added stations.
For me the big message for governments across Australia is in the last section of the video.
Transport systems (especially metros) should be planned out for the full future aspirational extent before those first lines are built. Know where you’re heading. Know the interchanges. Know how to build an efficient network rather than just lines that only deal with one piece of the puzzle in isolation.
Great video. Really informative.
Yes! Spot on... Instead of just releasing the piecemeal Metro's, they should have released an integrated plan broken into stages with cost/benefits driving the stages.
@@DAEMTAM The NSW Govt has that plan - it's called Future Transport Strategy 2056. Not sure how it's tracking now with change of govt, but they absolutely have a plan. To what extent they will stick with it? Who knows... as with all transport projects around the world... plans will change and 2056 is a long way away.
@@Koochoo have you read it?
@@DAEMTAM Yes I have. It's an interesting document and there is a clear plan but it's a matter of successive govts implementing it. Not everything in it is perfect (just like the delivery of the new infrastructure), but some things are good. Metro West and Metro City and South West are very strong projects. There's a lot more that needs to be done though.
@@Koochoo it's colourful lines with no timeframes or staging concepts. It doesn't even go into enough detail to list out the current locked in plans. As mentioned in the video, the government of the day should make firm plans and make any replacement government have to cancel the plan in order to have a clear vision and proper transit oriented planning.
www.opengov.nsw.gov.au/viewer/9a7683893bf3457ca5a2978213558918.pdf
Worth noting that since the pandemic the T4 Illawarra and Eastern Suburbs line is actually the busiest single line in the city, running consistently above the T1 Western line; however the combined T1 North Shore and Western line is significantly higher, though down by more since the Pandemic along with the T8 Airport and South line both down even more significantly.
The TfNSW statistics are misleading due to changes over the years in the way that the lines have been categorised. In this case the Eastern Suburbs Line and the Illawarra Line are lumped together the 'T4' banner, whereas the T1/T9 branches are all counted separately and would combine to be much larger than this figure. Take a look at the 2017 figures to see what I mean.
@@ScottsMarbleRuns sort of, and bear in mind T1 North Shore and Western line has significantly more stations than T4 Eastern Suburbs and Illawarra line. It's difficult to include the T9 figures because it runs different terminating patterns and tracks depending on the time of day.
To be very clear, 2023 patronage was:
T4 Eastern Suburbs and Illawarra
52 million
T1 North Shore line
40 million
T1 Western line
42 million
T9 Northern line
20 million
@@kyletopfer7818 I think you are missing the extra 42 million North Shore Line trips in 2023 (totalling about 100 million for T1/T9). Although on a passenger density basis, the ESR would probably be the busiest line overall across its 6 stations.
@@ScottsMarbleRuns had a closer look and you're right - the source I was using was false. Have corrected it!
I think it would make a lot of sense to have Blue Mountains trains stop at Westmead and Central Coast/Newcastle trains stop at North Strathfield, providing interchanges between the Metro and Intercity services.
Mountains trains used to so would make sense same with st Mary’s once that’s going
A very credible description Metro West. I agree with some of your comments, and also many of the contrary views that have already appeared below. My views are:
- The line is well justified to increase capacity, improve travel time and provide residential/commercial development opportunities at several stations en-route
- While essential, it still represents the 'old thinking' that rail lines go from the CBD to somewhere - by comparison the WSI line is a real 'game changer' that recognises Western Sydney as being the most populated and greatest area of industry in the greater Sydney area in its own right - so I should have its own transport system, by all means connected to, but not centred on CBD Sydney - the the WSI Metro is the beginning of a longer Western Sydney centred transport spine from Schofields to Macarthur - with other transport options radiating from it to ultimately provide similar public transport options that exist in Sydney's inner suburbs.
- Disagree with some of your comments about interchanges - if you make Hunter Street connect well with another line it reduces connectivity with others - People are just as likely to want to connect to a Wynyard, Martin Place, L1 or L2, or catch a ferry - I'm 70 and walking between any of those is fine; indeed I would regard it as a welcome opportunity for exercise, as walking is the most beneficial and primary mode of short distance transit (my relatives with mobility limitations think likewise).
- Same thing at Parramatta - I think the station under construction is nicely located for the 'Eat Street' and nearby venues, and the new high rise residences - and easily connects with the light rail, numerous existing bus services and even the ferry wharf - if it was co-located with the existing Parramatta Station that would be less so.
- Disagree with some of your comments about station locations - metro stations often breed transit oriented development - at places like The Bays, Burwood North, Rosehill and North Strathfield that would be fine - But people need choices; and among those are living in pleasant urban villages like Concord - transit oriented development at Burwood North along Parramatta Rd can't make the place any worse and probably has good transport interchange options in several directions - however, similar development at Concord would wreck the charm of the place, a charm that some a quite happy to pay for.
- The comments about not being able to change to an express service at Westmead are a bit strange - It's not like the metro eliminates existing options - If I was say going to the Blue Mountains or even Penrith from or through the CBD, I wouldn't use the metro, I'd catch the existing express service straight from the city - There might be a case for making Westmead into an express stop for western/BMT services, although a better case would probably exist at St Marys once the WSI metro is operating.
- Might not be your thing; but would have liked some discussion about technical aspects; like what will the trains be like? (NW-SW is 6 car, with options for 8 car sets, using 1500vDC power, probably because it runs intimately close to other 1500vDC systems - but WSI is a 'light metro', with 3car/4car, 25Kv AC system) - I've heard Metro West is also to be 25KvAC, as will be any high speed rail developments in NSW)
- Some people get excited that all rail 'should be all standardised on 1500vDC' - I have the opposite view; 1500vDC was the choice of the day back when the Sydney and Melbourne systems were developed, but today you would use 25vAC (like Brisbane and Perth) - It has significant advantages, like only needing about 20-25% the number of transformers, and all the steel and copper infrastructure are much lighter. It's about time it was introduced.
As a Blue Mountainer, I would hope they add stops at both St Marys and Westmead once the respective lines open. It's a long trip from the mountains, but an extra four minutes on the trip is a small price to pay.
@@certifiedfrogenjoyer1891good point. It’ll also provide those living close to the western metro an option for connectivity.
Tacit, comprehensive reply! Well done. I hope you live to see all these additions as waiting 20-30 more years would be torture!
@@certifiedfrogenjoyer1891Yes at St Marys, but not at Westmead - changing to the Metro can be done at Parramatta + a 3 minute walk. Will on balance save most people's time.
The whole idea for the Metro stations at Martin Place and Hunter street; is to channel people away from the existing City Rail stations at Town Hall and Wynyard. The underground pedestrian connection between Martin Place and Hunter Street is quite short. Both stations are made up of two caverns each and they connect at the closest caverns to each other.
I believe the Western Metro (including the Eastern Section at The Bays, Pyrmont and Hunter Street) is AC, and the City/Southwest is DC powered; so they'll never meet on track.
The route selection for both Metros (City/SW and WS) was made to relieve the City Circle line. That is why they went ahead with the conversion of the Bankstown Line to Metro.
I've worked on all of the Metros, except the first one (NW).
Its unfortunatel that you make these high quality videos without reading many of the Project documents inckuding EIS and some of the future rail plans published by the government.
Many of these things are tradeoffs and have been considered in the reports.
Eg.
- stopping patterns will be changed for Westmead to make some of the express services empty before Parramatta
- the new Parramatta Metro is very close to Parramatta railway but they dont want to encourage interchange as the existing station is very busy and space constrained wirh its single underground concourse
- future plans have MetroWest extensing to the Western Sydney Airport and to Sydney's SouthEast (possibly including Central). Stub tunnels are consteucted under the Domain for this ourpose.
- Silverwater is a key employment centre that the government doesnt want to see being turned into housing (plus the prison and heavily polluted chemical factories) - similar issues to South Artarmon on the first stage.
- Hunter St will have an in-gate single escalator connection to the Tallawong-Bankstown metro, out of gate to Wynyard.. many Sydney builidngs have multiple stories of underground parking, plus a few motorways, so your underground space is very conatrained.
Extend the south west metro to Glenfield/liverpool
Definitely no budget blowouts on Metro North West, as someone as already pointed out
Additionally, the Parramatta station location is a 200m walk to the metro station site, with the light rail kind of in the middle.
It was actually under budget!
There needs to be a north south metro line. Maybe from hurstville to Olympic park or even tullawong. We currently dont have a way to go from north to south without using buses which take an hour, else you have to go into the city
It's actually crazy they don't prioritise one. So much time, money and effort is put into East - West connections but a North/South line would be a game changer, especially for Western Sydney. I shouldn't have to always change at Lidcombe if I wanted to go to Bankstown to Parramatta. 35 mins on two trains or take a 15 min car ride? Yeah I'd rather take the car.
I’m intrigued by this. In Melbourne any expenditure on a Metro is fiercely contested by Political and Media players. Sydney seems much more mature. As Melbourne is now the largest city in Australia, they should take a leaf from Sydney’s playbook to keep both cities running efficiently.
Not true, the metro projects have not been without controversy in Sydney and there is enormous investment in the rail network in Melbourne (e.g. Metro Tunnel, SRL, Regional Rail, level crossings). Both cities have their success and failures but overall it's a positive story in both places.
Melbourne needs to add dedicated express lines and add 2nd express tracks and revive inner loop
@@msg5507thanks, I wasn’t aware.
Believe me, there's still copious amounts of blowback against the Metro projects here in Sydney, some justified, most of the others not quite
Sydney didn’t build much rail or light rail infrastructure for about 20 years from the late 1980s onwards, so by the time the mid 2010s came around everyone was screaming for it
Leppington Station to the 2nd airport needs to be built...it would cost less as a sky bridge because its mostly empty land from the Southwest to the Airport. Leppington cant be left as a Dead end station in the middle of no where.You got major metro areas like Campeltowm and Liverpool that will use the airport
And linked to the current Sydney airport. If it were not the ideology driven LNP government, it would make far more sense to connect Leppington to the Western Sydney airport with heavy rail instead of building the metro rail to St Mary.
Wow. Impressed with the plans!
It could be extended at the CBD end to connect into the airport line replacing the heavy trains to Liverpool in a similar way as the Bankstown line is being converted to Metro trains. Then there's a potential to take it thru to the new airport linking the 2 airports and just as important reducing the number of trains on the city circle allowing the capacity of the remaining city circle lines to be increased.
Not worth the money to convert. Better to build the heavy rail from Leppington to the new airport to connect the two airports. Also the quickest way to get from the new Western Sydney airport to Central station.
@@georgej8647 I was thinking about the reduction of trains on the city circle enabling more trains on the remaining lines. Agree that extending the heavy line to the new airport is cheaper and provides a better connection to the CBD
Metro West should be extended to Norwest, running through Northmead, Winston Hills and Baulkham HIlls which are all bus dependent, it would also give a western connection between Norwest and Parramatta.
I thought the Metro West is going to be operational at 2030? I reckon they should connect the Westmead to St Mary's as an express connection
The hunter street location is about as physically close as possible they could have built it near a major station, its just across the road from Wynyard station, given how hard it is to actually find a place to put anymore underground stations in the CBD
On the subject of cost blowouts, it is well established that the biggest two causes of cost blowouts are 1. Insufficient time to develop projects thereby not identifying risks and 2. Scope Creep, you know, by adding extra stations here or there. Everything else is usually a consequence of these two problems.
To be fair, I can about bet you the gaps in the stations for this line are planned for future infill stations once the line has been running for awhile. That said, this is what I wish the US would do. Stop building MAX like light rail lines, and build them as they are supposed to be - Metro or Subway systems, regional, IC & ICE service. This shows how the LRT lines within Sydney are mostly as the mode was made to function - short loops or point-to-point loop lines made to compliment other transit services in the most high demand, high-density areas of cities, again, unlike here in the US where they make Metros and Subways into some corrupted version of LRT.
One thing is a definite no no to sharing tracks. In fact if anyone from tfnsw suggest this in this day and age should be sacked. You can however share stations as long as the tracks are not shared.. For example if you want to have a stop at Martin place you will need to build an extra 2 tracks along with additional platforms.
The purpose of the metro is to stop the issue where one line affects another, like today when one issue at one station took out the entire train network for the entire day.
The interchanges are by design Parramatta is used to service the business district which is far away from the current train station, they can interchange at Westmead.
Hunter Street is by design from memory, I believe it's due to station overcrowding at the current city train stations and having people interchange a bit further away helps control people flow.
Also I am not sure if mentioned is that the Metro West is actually AC voltage and Metro City is DC like the rest of the network so they are not actually compatible. AC has a number of advantages over DC and is what most new metro lines are built using.
I don’t agree with your characterisation of Silverwater as an industrial wasteland. Every city needs industrial areas where things gets done - things that support commerce, construction and allow all the other parts of the city to function. Silverwater is a particularly successful industrial precinct with great access to motorways and has a low vacancy rate. It would be hard to replace this or relocate this to anywhere else in Sydney and needs to be retained.
Silverwater is not a wasteland .........
I can't help thinking that the CBD station should have been more integrated with Martin Place - turning it into the new Central with the ability to change to the Eastern suburbs and Illawarra lines, and still only being one stop to Town Hall. They should also have extended it south to stops at Taylor Square, then on to Waterloo & Zetland (with the side effect of removing pressure from Green Square) and finally Rosebery (all medium - high density areas in future)
7:35 Hunter Street station can’t have cross platform interchange as it has to face east/west to allow for future expansion east. Otherwise, there were very few physical options due to everything else under the city.
correct, also cross-platform transfers are not a good idea in CBDs due the risks of overcrowding. Just like many tube stations in London like Bank Station keep people walking in tunnels to prevent overcrowding at peak times. Sydney's CBD has multiple events that brings hundreds of thousands of people in, and it will soon have new stations to spread the load. The want to avoid the issues that plague Sydney's Town Hall station.
I think extending the rail from the CBD to Bondi Beach or Cooggie Beach would have opened a much needed east-west link. But then again, the easterns don't want the westerners in their suburb.
Everyday at least one Blue Mountains Line train stops at Westmead.
Some of the existing CBD stations are so busy that it probably wouldn’t have been wise to add two new platforms, especially not Wynyard and Town Hall
that and the lack of space to do it. That is why the Gadigal Station is one block east.
The alternative station locations you discussed were considered in detail and the locations of the stations and number is very deliberate.
Also the lack of abstraction at silverwater is also deliberate. It’s not an industrial waste land… it’s industrial land, containing many urban services and small industries that serve the surrounding areas and Sydney generally. The loss of this land to urban renewal will displace these activities away from
Where they are needed.
You raise good points about the station spacing. Hopefully they rough in a couple stations where there could be future infill stations built. It will save a tonne of money and let them keep the service running while they build any new station in the future!
You also raise great plans about future planning. It’s important to have plans set in stone - to be able to purchase rights of way, ensure that development doesn’t get in the way and such.
Thanks for another great video!
Interesting update. As someone watching this from afar (Seattle) it appears that Sydney at least has something of a train/transit foundation on which to build, even if the planned lines aren't ideal - up here we're slowly building out an integrated system from what was virtually nothing, and with the same NIMBY opposition too common to many cities. How does the existing western train lines you mentioned handle both the T lines and freight trains on the same tracks without causing a lot of hassle?
Rail freight in Sydney basically operates by the brute force of British rail design. As was mentioned in the video, the Main Suburban Line has 6 tracks to Homebush, and 4 tracks to St Marys.The tracks are designed so that the south pair are for local services, the middle pair for midspeed services, and the north pair for express services. The stations are designed that way as well -- most of the smaller stations on the Main Suburban *only* have platforms which face the south pair, so midspeed and express services actually can't stop there. There are also loads of switches at every station, and every junction on the system uses absolutely gigantic flat wyes (outside of Central station, Sydney didn't start believing in dedicated flyovers until the 90s). Picture the rail design of Victorian London applied to a flat, linear corridor of ground and you'll have the right picture. The actual freight bottlenecks for Sydney's rail freight are all on the middle-to-outer parts of the city, where the corridors have been reduced to only 2 tracks without any corresponding reduction in passenger service. Although the T9 corridor (which is the main northern freight corridor *and* the main northern intercity corridor *and* the suburban corridor for ~20 NIMBYs in the heritage suburbs along the line) has Problems, what with it being only 2 tracks wide with not much room to expand.
Rail freight mostly doesn’t use the Western lines because the grades through the Blue Mountains are brutal for freight. It turns out that it’s actually faster for freight trains to go the onng way around out of Sydney for most freight tasks. It’d be even faster if the rail alignment in the Southern Highlands w didn’t completely suck.
Yeah, the ways into Sydney suck for the trains. there’s no easy route in because of the terrain. Directly south east? Nope, Illawarra escarpment. Southern highlands, nope. Although this one could be most easily fixed. To the north? Cowan bank is famous for freight trains failing. The Blue Mountains… Yeah, nah. Within Sydney, except directly to the south, most freight is segregated from suburban rail by the SSFL and Botany Rail freight network. The north is mostly there up to Berowra, though there is a gap there, though there are already plans to close that, and more freight only lines are planned.
This is actually an area where things have progressed well within Sydney over time, since freight tracks attract federal funding.things aren’t too bad heading directly south as the freight task from that direction isn’t crazy, and there’s another port at Wollongong that can intercept goods headed offshore. Interestingly the rail alignment once down into Wollongong is enviable. Very straight and fast, the escarpment just puts a giandt screw you on that and it blocks to the north and west of Wollongong, which means basically all the ways out that aren’t along the coast. to the south (nd there’s nothing really down there). It also helps that the line to the south is quadruplicated as far as Mortdale in the south, so while there’s a limit on freight in peak commuting hours, it’s not too much of a problem working around that.
Passenger trains on the BMT line are nominally hourly off peak, so it is not too hard to fit freight trains (mostly coal, a few intermodal services) in between; there are adequate passing sidings along the line.. With 4 tracks east of St Marys, freight is able to be separated from the 15 min suburban services. Freight services are suspended during peak hours.
There was also a proposal for a line from Maldon to Dombarton , ( Wollongong ) and construction was commenced but abandoned decades ago . Apparently , when part of the Illawarra line was duplicated and realigned between Waterfall and Wollongong , one of the original tunnels was retained for use on the present line . This is still single track and it is thought that building a replacement , double track tunnel could weaken the integrity of the escarpment due extensive coal mining there in the past . I discovered this information in a book about the history of this railway , and was quite surprised ! In view of these facts , perhaps the Maldon to Dombarton line may eventually become viable . In fact , former Prime Minister , Julia Gillard did mention this as possibility worth reviewing .
@@murraykitson1436 this was to be mainly a freight line for the movement of coal to bypass the metropolitan area. The plan was cancelled when it was predicted that coal production from that area would be scaled back in the future.
It had nothing to do with metros in the Sydney area.
Brilliant research and insights, awesome video about an awesome city
The state government has said they’re investigating two additional stations west of Sydney Olympic Park including Rose Hill, so it’s unlikely Rose Hill will be the only addition as construction operations have been instructed to accomodate for those two additional stations.
THE PARRAMATTA METRO SHOULD GO ALL THE WAY TO BONDI AS CLOSE TO THE BEACH AS POSSIBLE, THEN TURN SOUTH TO HEAD TOWARDS THE RANDWICK LIGHT RAIL AND A CONNECTION TO THE SYDNEY AIRPORT LINE
I know building new heavy rail is unfashionable, but if we wanted to serve Bondi Beach by rail wouldn't it make more sense to just extend the T4 line from Bondi Junction?
@@Nalehwyes, the only thing stopping them was nimbys so it could definitely be built one day
@@Nalehw Tried that in the 90's (I worked on it). Residents wouldnt have a bar of it, and the politicians ran away
If Metro West is built as a 25kV AC it would make sense that it is a completely separate line to the NW and SW.
I can't agree with you and Building Beautifully, that adding more stations, is always the answer, an express train, is often the answer, with few stops. The train can get up to speed and stay that way, from the CBD, to Parramatta, in 20 minutes is an admirable goal. Look at Sydenham, to Bankstown, 10 stops, each station, cost a quarter of a billion dollars, to upgrade, the train has to slow down and stop and drop off and take on passengers, at every stop.
Actually the Chatswood to Tallawong section of the Metro, with it's fewer stops, was below cost and ahead of schedule, there was greater distances between stations. It was a skyway construction, along much of the line, it's understandable that lines upgraded would have lots of stations, like it was, from a slow train era. But a new line, can exploit higher speeds, less stations, as a hub, for electric buses, light rail. A priority, after Metro West is finished, is St Mary's to Tallawong, the problem is Metro West and the Second Airport line are DC and the NW to SW line are AC, so passengers will have to change lines.
Tallawong to Chatswood, made them overconfident, skyways, fewer stops, retrofitting recent lines; they got a shock at the cost, of tunnelling, retrofitting old lines, large numbers of stations, far more expensive, with Chatswood to Bankstown. And you're right, the need to build a 4 billion dollar underground city, to connect the NW to SW and West Metros, was short sighted, rather than just connecting them, at Martin Place. Seperate levels, no capacity loss, would have made more sense. Finally frequency is freedom and expresses make sense.
You say that like connecting everything at Martin Place is so simple and easy. You realise how difficult it was to connect the current Metro at Martin Place to the Sydney Trains platforms? It's not short sightedness. It's practicality and buildability. Those engineers have had to solve real problems that most youtubers don't seem to consider.
what about south sydney down to the shire???
A potential idea I have would be to start a new extension from Hunter St known as Sydney Metro North East. It would start at Hunter St, then continue to a new station at The Rocks, before going under the harbour to an upgraded interchange at Milson's Point. It would then diverge to the east, with new stations at Neutral Bay and Mossman, continuing under the river before reaching Clontarf, Balgowlah and terminating at Manly. The next stage after Manly would be known as Sydney Metro Northern Beaches, extending from Manly, with stations at Queenscliff, Curl Curl, Dee Why, Collaroy, Narrabeen, Narrabeen North, and ending an Mona Vale.
I think the metro needs to completed in the west, linking St Marys with Airport and on to Oran park and Campbelltown, before the housing is completed. Cut and cover for tunnels is much cheaper than tunnelling under already bult houses and factories.
They should extend the light rail to BALMAIN & the metro to Lilyfield and Leichhardt
Out to Richmond / nth richmond and possibly follow the bells line of road to Lithgow to open up the west
i think there just needs to be more stops on metro west - such a big gap between olympic park and parramatta makes no sense, so whether its newington, silverwater, or rosehill, or all of them, it would be a lot more convenient and cost effective to add stations there
2 new lines have been leaked for the Metro West, we are unsure where as of yet. The Premier posted and quickly deleted there will be 2 new stops.
I don't understand this comment at 4:50 about there being no interchange with the existing Parramatta station. They'll only be about 350m apart so it should be a pretty straightforward connection.
A 350m schlepp in the middle of a commute is not trivial.
yeah it is. you can walk further than that changing platforms at Central station
The current government was thinking of putting stops at Lilyfield & Leichhardt. However tunnelling has already gone through which now makes it a miss opportunity for those suburbs
Having North Strathfield as an interchange with the metro doesn't seem convenient. It would've made sense to have done Rhodes as an interchange with the metro because of the frequency of trains that stop at Rhodes, most trains don't even stop at North Strathfield
The previous government should've put a bit of effort into Metro West such as putting in more stations and linking up the Metro West with the City & Southwest Metro by rail
The only issue now is that the Western Sydney Airport & West metro's will have different rolling stock and voltage to the Northwest, City & Southwest metro
I believe that a station at wynyard is essential for interchange with Sydney's light, regional, and national rails
They should put a metro line from Tallawong to Richmond, or a rail line along the Richmond track. Tallawong is becoming so congested now especially with the new development of all the apartments.
This way there is connectivity with that Richmond rail line
I agree with your comments on additional stops and better interchanges. I wonder who in TfNSW drive these projects... Is it the transit planners or government/political interests.
I'd like to see it planned for an east extension around towards Paddington with a station somewhere around Darlinghurst/Oxford St
It could then branch to another station near SFS/SCG, before heading to Zetland. After Zetland it should swing around to end of the L3 for an underground interchange before coming out above ground into an elevated track down the middle of Anzac parade all the way to the future ferry at little bay. This would open the area for additional transit oriented development (depending on bus/ferry/metro interchanges it could open a faster route from Cronulla too).
I like your videos the interesting thank you, one point I like to know, why the Metro line didn't finish up at Lidcombe, if I want to go to Canterbury or Sydenham, I have to change at Bankstown to get the Metro line, they should finish it off at Lidcombe but doesn't look like it they will who taught of it the system line I think it's stupid what do you think do you think they end up finishing it one day, thanks for the video I hope you respond me see what you think thanks again😊
That's because a further stage for the Bankstown metro is to extend it to Liverpool. If you look at a map Yagoona, Birrong Regent's Park Berala Lidcombe is out of the way.
I'd be in favour of converting the all stops to metro upto Hurstville to speed up the Cronulla service, followed by a tunnel from Thirroul to Waterfall to speed up the South Coast Line.
T-way extension to metro is a great idea.
If they don't want to commit to making an additional stop at Parramatta why not just extend the line to Blacktown, the blue mountains line stops there and would be a quicker trip to Westmead. But by that consideration why not just then extend the line to St Mary's.
Going from Liverpool to CBD is trash. Hopefully they connect us to metro west and take it down to the whole new corridor of estates for smeton grang, Oran park, Denham court all the way to Camden/narrelen
Sharing tracks as you’ve mentioned at 8:20 would actually defeat the purpose of proper metro as for instance of not sharing tracks in Prague they’re capable of sending trains 120 seconds apart which as you can imagine is impossible with shared tracks. Parallel yes.
Great points. As you said, integration matters could have been considered much better. With the issues at Roselle roading tunnels, it is sad a branch towards Drummoyne that links at the Bays Station a bit like the Elizabeth line has the feeder lines that go into the core would have been helpful as a future add-on.
They should be doing that kind of stuff in the future! Why can’t they add feeder lines like that.
Why would you branch the main new east west Metro line? You realise a branch halves capacity?
@@kyletopfer7818 yes but they won’t just build a full line to some other places so it would make sense. boy it was just a suggestion.
@@JamesFFiT because it halves capacity and doubles the risk of disruption for starters.
@@kyletopfer7818 it’s automated, they can’t surely run more frequent than 4 mins like 2 mins? With the speed they go.
The metro northwest needs to be extended form Tallawong, this line needs to be extended beyond Schofields station, it would be awesome to see stations at West Schofields, Marsden Park, Melonba, Shanes Park, Ropes Crossing, North St Mary’s, then onto St Mary’s new Metro station.
You could build a viaduct from Tallawong to just before Marsden Park, then tunnel all the way to just after Melbone, then another viaduct to just before Ropes Crossing then tunnel to St Mary’s.
I want to get to Parramatta as soon as possible....from there should be a direct metro line to the new airport. The new airport is going to be a nightmare to get to
The Elizabeth Line is already at capacity it also isn’t a metro it’s heavy rail. Metros are designed to keep everything simple and not tangle themselves up in the switching and signalling mess of heavy rail.
The metro should've followed a similar alignment to Victoria Road and have stops along places like Drummoyne, Gladesville, Ryde, an interchange at North Strathfield, then go from Olympic Park to Parramatta but with the Rosehill station at the University instead which is a bit further north which would add a solid second interchange with the light rail. Definitely a missed opportunity to renew the suburbs on Victoria Road which is one of the most congested roads in Sydney
The Metro West can't share tracks with the Southeast Metro because they use different voltages. It's not possible without having to change all the substations and trains on one of the lines.
Well, there is already a direct city rail connection between Liverpool and Parramatta (starting from Leppington, yes you guessed it) 🙂
Unfortunately there cannot be more stations without quadding the line. Which won't happen because it's expensive and tunnelled.
The purpose of the line is to provide relief to the T1 by adding additional stations it adds additional time. It needs to be significantly faster than the T1 or it will not fill it's intended purpose.
Linking the WSU to St Marys is a little silly IMO. A better route would have to head south, via Camden, and Narellan, and link to the T2 via Campbelltown, as then it'd create a relatively easier link between the 2 airports, instead of people needing to go through Central. If done well, haha, The Bays would provide a much lacking public transport access to White Bay Cruise Terminal.
I just wanted to add. That Sydney Should learn from Singapore. Basically circular railway routes and then lines running through it, like a spider 🕸 web. Eventually removing all need to build new roads.
Hunter Street is a good place as if you walk from Wynyard to Hunter Street, very steep hill. Parramatta light rail will have a station at North Parramatta. It's a pity that the State Government doesn't receive revenue from Tolls as this could of supplied funding for future rail projects.
I would be very interested in an extension along the Parramatta-Liverpool T-way
It’ll never be enough
No, Metro West should be eventually extended to the WS Airport. First, though, the line from Bankstown should be extended to the airport via Liverpool. That way you end up with an orbital system with a line cutting through east-west.
Great video. 👍 I agree that Concord is a missed opportunity. Possibly there was difficulty finding a spot for it? You can walk to Burwood North in around 10-15 minutes from Concord or 15 minute walk to North Strathfield. There are buses from Concord to Burwood. Anyway.
As for an extension it’ll be sensible to go to the Western Airport and the other end, go via Moore Park (badly needed especially on game/concert days), Randwick, Maroubra, Eastgardens (huge shopping center massive apartment development) then onto Sydney Airport to terminate. It’ll provide a rail link between both airports plus provide much needed rail to suburbs without trains. Buses are so slow in the eastern suburbs.
Agree more stations between Olympic Park and Parramatta plus having one at Lilyfield should be built too.
Possibly go one step past the airport to Wolli Creek for the interchange?
This metro west should continue east to Bondi beach. Instead of hunter street station, they should’ve used Martin place and then continue it along the existing T4 to Bondi Jct. where they should keep it going a stop to the beach.
That's about 12-15km, and even though it's a tourist attraction (mainly), there is no housing to build up around, which is why Zetland was suggested instead. It's still on the cards, just not right now. There is more interest in connecting Tallawong with Schofields and St Mary's (which includes Marsden Park), and the Leppington line with the Western Airport Metro. Too many NIMBYs freaked out that it would easy for Dazza and Ahmed to dirty their pristine 'multicultural' beach ("look we're multicultural, we have backpackers from all over the world!!!!!" (=Europe)).
@@yesand5536 Just recall the immense and collective meltdown over extending the T4 to Bondi Beach which subsequently caused it to be cancelled
@@bryankong4421 Yes. A bit like the Northern Beaches Line. It's going to be built as the old NIMBYs are not going to be around, and probably more so, as estates are built around Frenchs Forest etc, there will need to be some kind of transport needed. If anyone was to build it, it would be the ALP as there really aren't that many votes for them around Bondi....
The west desperately needs more rail. but why does no one talk about that other need - Mona Vale to the City, and Bondi Beach to Maroubra, looping around to Mascot. We are playing catch-up from decades of not building rail infrastructure, so there is a lot to catch up on.
This already doesn't seem like it's a metro. Stops are really far apart, and it travels quite the distance. If it gets extended any further people are going to want more seats.
I'd suggest stopping the line at Paramatta station as that's already a long way for a metro. Add in a few more stops along the way and consider ripping up some of the existing suburban train stops so the suburban trains can run express. The metro should definitely have more stops in the city unless the plan is to add a lot more trams. I'd probably avoid sharing it's line with another metro though. Melbourne made this mistake and now our city loop limits the frequency of all our lines. It might not be the end of the world for just two metros, but transit lives or dies on frequency, and that's extra true for metros.
I think it's a terrible idea to run a metro out to the new airport. That's a long trip so run an elevated line that connects to the existing heavy train line.
A metro is preferred for the new airport because it accommodates passengers and their luggage 10x better. This was a known issue with the existing airport rail link. The double deckers aren't convenient
@@mgp1203 Use single decker heavy rail then. If it's going that far to and from an airport it should be designed for tired people to travel in comfort with their luggage, so lots of comfortable seats, higher speeds, long loading / unloading times so fewer doors, over head luggage storage as well as some extra floor space. Meanwhile Metros are for shorter trips in dense areas so low speeds, high acceleration and braking, lots of doors for fast loading, fewer seats for more density and faster loading / unloading. Metros are better if they have close stops and lots of links, which kills long distance travel. There's no overlap between those two transit types.
The design overlap with long distance regional rail is 100% - the only real difference is floor space is used for standing room rather than luggage.
47km is SO long for a Metro. London has some stupidly long metro (underground) lines and their longest one is 42km from central to the furthest station.
I reli love london underground for its convenience i hope sydney new metro can be the same
title mistake. added an extra "will" 🙂
Good catch! Updated now
City Moose “yeah let’s build stuff in Sydney woooo”
Also City Moose “bah Melbourne building SRL what a waste of money and they won’t even finish it”
Well it's not like Melbs can afford to build anything..Danny left the state bankrupt and in debt forever 👍
These aren't even remotely comparable. The Victorian government is broke and the SRL will cost an unjustified amount, and Sydney will have already tunnelled through what they needed. They just need to build the stations.
A branch line from Victoria Cross to Spit Junction (and beyond) would be so useful to counter the horrendous traffic on Military Rd
HI City Moose! I love your idea about South West Extensions. I was talking to someone in Transport a few years ago and the original plan for the metro was for the existing sections to be an Orbital and the Parramatta Metro to cut through the middle. Sydney is very bad at North-South links. The orbital was going to go from Tallewong to Bankstown as planned, then tunnel from Bankstown to Liverpool, take on the current heavy rail tracks from Liverpool to Leppington and go to the Western Sydney South West Airport Metro, and connect up to Tallewong. I'm not sure what's changed with this plan though as the carriages and overheads will be incompatible between the Western Sydney South West Airport Metro, with this metro using AC overheads, and the other metros using DC power. But this was dumped before that image you shared was public. I don't know why. I think that any government needs to look at 3 cross city north south links. Campbelltown to Penrith and possibly to Richmond, Revesby, Liverpool Parramatta to the Hills district, and Kogarah trough to Strathfield/Parramatta. That's my two cents, sorry about the long comment. Love you content.
If you visited Sydney Train Glenfield and Leppington stations, you would realise how stupid to build the Western Sydney Airport metro instead of extending Sydney Train from Leppington to the new airport.
I don’t care what they do or where they extend it as long as they decide to put a station a lillyfield I will be happy
there is a big maximum security prison at Silverwater, nobody wants to live there or put their money down to develop it
What about workers? Industrial waste land is where people need to go for employment, so a station at Silverwater would make loads of sense. Another station that would make sense is the industrial area of Artarmon.
The North West Metro was constructed under budget.
Why not extend it to seven hills or blacktown. Both are major stations which are probably the best located suburbs in Sydney. Blacktown especially is undergoing major developments and may end up being a 3rd CBD.
I agree with this, especially considering Blacktown is the most populated LGA in Sydney and it is expected to grow to 650k in the next decade. It is also a working class area that is dependant and deserving of public transport investment than other more privileges areas. I honestly believe it's just prejudice that prevents any new plans to build new rail in Blacktown or around.
When considering changes to projects, I think it is good to take the advice from the previous NSW Government, that is, if a large project doesn't contribute to solving the housing crisis as the top benefit, then it shouldn't proceed. For example, spending a billion dollars to save motorists five minutes can no longer be justified. The current government is talking the talk on solving the housing crisis. Unfortunately, they have already made some very poor decisions in that respect.
We can only dream of this in Ireland 😅😅😅3rd world infrastructure we can't even send electricity overheads to drogheda 😅
No extra stations on metro west as they want to keep parramatta 20 mins from cbd which is just hype. Much more potential for high density housing and more stations on metro west.
Ps god your sexy ❤
Um... they are very much likely building extra stations. The ATC are working with the govt on this, offering their land in Rosehill (the racecourse) for that very reason to provide an additional 20,000 units of housing. The talk of a Silverwater station is also very much current and it's being considered.
Yet but when! My comments were in reference to the original design and the 20 mins thing, when Gladys was in.
@@JamesFFiT Yeah- those plans were limited in scope and didn't really capitalise on the opportunities. The new govt is pushing forward with new plans and saying that a 20min journey isn't the most important thing. 20m vs 22m is not a deal breaker.
@@Koochoo exactly! Glad, I thought lack of stations was stupid.
I could not agree more. Sydney has made yet another public transport balls-up: I really can't see the great demand for an express between the Sydney & Parramatta CBD's. Yes there is _some_ demand, but it's not that great, and the existing express services that only stop at Strathfield & Redfern already cater for that demand, and that demand does not fill-up those services.
In my opinion: There is far greater demand for the abandoned inner west metro of Nathan Rees' government, which would have served the northern side of the campus of Sydney University, Annandale, Leichhardt, Haberfield, Five dock (yes I'm aware that that is getting a stop), and Concorde. Places that are already public transit deserts and clogged with automobile dependency.
But of course Gladys et al are all about satisfying developers with billions behind them and not about doing what is right for the city.
My proposed Metro Line is the following.
On the Metro West line to build a new line branching off it between Olympic Park & North Strathfield & trains head towards Wolli Creek. There would be new underground platforms at Strathfield & Canterbury to interchange with other lines & possible new station at Croydon Park. It would join T8 line between Turella & Wolli Creek stations & then travel along existing Airport link, which is converted to Metro.
After Green Sq station it a new short tunnel would connect line to Metro City & SW tunnel so Metro trains travel along this line up to Epping or Chatswood.
Benefits are direct train connecting Airport, T4 & T8 lines to Metro West, T1, T2, T3 & T9 lines at Strathfield, SW Metro at Canterbury without having to travel to City or Redfern. Fast services connecting Parramatta to Airport. Would allow more rapid Metro services on busiest section of Metro City between Central & Chatswood (ie 2 minute gaps instead of 4). Metro trains are much better for serving Airport than Sydney train fleet.
Alternatively, Metro West joins Metro City & SW in CBD as you suggested & runs along it to Waterloo when it branches off to join Airport link tunnel & runs to Airport & Wolli Creek with possibility of converting middle tracks on T8 line to Metro so Metro trains travel to Revesby.
Nothing under the Labor party
Westmead to st Mary’s stop at Blacktown allows access to the cbds from new airport
Everyone working on the project should have volunteered or be paid minimum wage
It is 2032
Not 2052
sydney metro transfer city west in sydney cbd and parramatta
!
Not sure how you've missed the fact that new metro lines in the Sydney cbd have to compete with existing underground structures. Also, why you speak so posh?
In normal rail systems 6 tracks is something huge, impossible, serving the whole region not only single city with Sbahn, regional and long distance trains. Munich central tunnel - 2 tracks, Berlin south-north tunnel - 4 tracks, Vienna west tunnel - 2 tracks and so on. And in Sydney it is, ummmm, just a weak suburban line hardly serving half of small CBD needs and urgently requiring multibillion extension, another 2 tracks in parallel.
Absolutely. With proper management the capacity potential of the T1/T2 corridor is huge.
'Promosm' 😅
They need a new station called *_Ad Hoc_* which will duplicate another station that is also near absolutely nowhere useful.
I really think that Sydney and the liberal party government who pushed this got it all wrong.
Between the termini are suburbs that are transit deserts such as Silverwater, Concorde, etc, but which they have not built a station for. And they could definitely have used the alignment for the inner west metro from the previous labour government for stations at the Sydney university campus, Leichhardt, etc.
I’m not convinced that there is that much demand for an express between Parramatta and Sydney, more for people wanting to commute to each cbd for work. And /?I frankly don't understand this obsession with putting stations where they have earmarked high density development, when there are ALREADY suburbs with enough population density to support a metro in the inner west, etc.The only thing they've got correct in my opinion is the interchange with T9, although I think that should have been at Concorde west. And I am under no doubt the future plans for the inner west line (most of T2) are for conversion to metro operation.
But it won’t be anything new in the long saga of botched Sydney public transport projects.