So glad to see John and you dialogue , a smorgasbord of insight , from one who has familiarity with some of these states of mind and transformation experience right up my ally ever since my first experience of something larger than I yet sitting right under our nose like a mustard seed , mankind will go to great lengths to avoid the SELF
Oh muh science, to justify an ecumenicist return to science’s Gnostic roots and like a devouring black hole assimilate all mysticisms for process theology. If they are known by their works the radicalism, and war pagan backlash, gender butchery and modern art like the alchemical MLK statue and Gnostic/mystic/esoteric cosmology in every movie and halftime show are what this worldview has yielded. I shudder to think of its expressions when academia and science reunite with meta mysticism for a unification of the many, to do “real science” beyond what Oppenheimer did, funded by transhumanists and the Gnostic elite, then open sourced to digital hedonists and morons. It’s the religion of antichrist and will be such an abomination that it will end with the second coming. It’s a naive and infantile mentality to try and open source this and solve these bad ideas with John’s spiritual acceleration and non pharmacological update to the Timothy Leary mentality.
I found his answer to "who are you?" to be beautiful. "I'm somebody who aspires to be the kind of lover of wisdom that I see in Socrates, the kind of lover of others that I see in Jesus of Nazareth and the kind of lover of reality that I see in Spinoza and Plotinus".
So excited you found Zevi, Dr. Vervaeke. I was introduced to you through your Rebel Wisdom appearances and you always get me spun up with fresh thoughts and connections.
I’ve been waiting for this overlap ever since I stumbled upon Zevi. This was a fantastic conversation. Let’s get Zevi talking to jonathan pageau as well. Keep up the good work. meaning is emerging
Thank you John. It’s been such a delight to connect with you, to be challenged and inspired in dia-logos. Your generosity of spirit in willing to share, teach, listen, grow and nurture has been astounding and inspiring.
Thank you for doing this interview! I was really inspired to hear that there are people within the scientific community who share my vision and my love of dialogue.
Parmenides understood that no matter how many “parts” he saw, how much diversity and change his senses reported, reality had to consist of a One, which was Unchanging. His sense saw those parts coming together to form that One, but the One, he knew a priori and by the most rigorous reasoning, must already be. It did not lie ahead along a time-line somewhere in the future; it ontologically lay beyond or behind or deeper within the many, now and forever. The pressure of time driving all the pieces to come together into the complete pattern is a sort of voice calling to them, a summoning to return; everything has already been there, since this lay outside time; anamnesis was a memory not of the past, of former time, but of ontology outside of time, of already-complete-then-now-later. A memory of all time unified; this memory stretched in all directions in time, and finally into none: into Being itself: into the heart which is alive. Empedocles supposed it to have been in the past because he remembered it; but if time is cyclic he remembered the future just as well, logically speaking.
Sprituality is good virtue and integration into science is very clever insight, in my case devotion is not experienced many times but buddhist sense of "losing self" is good for concentrating work energy, I could do snow removal by integrating this sense. I have ontological buddhist book and read it, it is great and I would like to attach this reply to insight from the video the above. I am so surprise West academic people also have welcomed buddhist sense for ordinary life wisdom. I am so happy to watch the video.
It is possible to be a Christian fundamentalist, as I am, and see deep levels of profound truth found in much of philosophy and world religions as they are all seeking God and truth, and this is certainly so in the lives of mystic seekers because beyond the absolute literal truth that fundamentalist believe in, there is and should be a deep caring and appreciation for all seekers of wisdom on their own independent journey, and this caring soul merely hopes and believes that the truth, whatever it is in reality, will ultimately be found by those who search with all their heart.
Wonderful conversation between two brilliant thinkers. In future conversations, I would love to hear more about self-deception, death anxiety, madness (e.g., schizophrenia), dreams, and drug-induced altered states of consciousness as they relate to the cognitive neuroscience of mystical experience. Thanks for sharing this dialog. I look forward to checking out JV's work in more depth. Shalom!
I have to say that I probably understood 5% of what you guys where talking about but I have been in awe from the beginning to the end and I must add that I will look at this video again eager to grasp more.
I am so relieved to have found your channel. There is this moment at the end of this video where I didn’t feel alone in the world in a particular way for the first time. I also cannot, at least not yet, get a doctorate. I don’t have that kind of financial stability. I was raised in fundamentalist Christianity. Now, I am an occultist, mystic, philosopher, and it is astonishing lonely. This conversation here, is one of the few I have found that speaks to what I am doing and is at the depth of dialogue I seek but rarely find, as I am not privileged with academic opportunity. Thank you so much for not editing this. I hope you continue to not edit these conversations. Congratulations on being able to connect with the greater communal dialogue even though you are coming from the edges. After 16 years of practice and 3 mystic initiations into different wisdom teachings, I have found that there are techniques, I tend to call them ‘occult’ techniques instead of ‘mystical’ techniques, but they do work, and anyone can use them. It is all about being willing to practice of course. All the mystery wisdoms have beautiful techniques that can be worked with, and by doing so, they reform themselves to speak in resonance with the times we are in. I have 30 journals worth of recorded experimentation with mystic techniques. I am 270 pages into my first book, explaining the techniques that I have found, the ones that have worked for everyone I have tried them with. You give me hope that when I am finally ready to go on UA-cam, that there might be a path to connect to others and get to have the deep conversations I so long for. Thank you for your work.
Best of luck on your book! I live these conversations as well and I agree with you that it's lovely and rare to find a like mind. I'll subscribe to your channel now for a tiny head start . Peace✌🍻
Hi Elizabeth, I’m so glad you found us. Uniting together seekers is what this project is all about, so it’s really meaningful to us that you felt less lonely through finding us. We’re less lonely too having you here with us. Thank You. I’m so glad you appreciated what we’re sharing and have no doubt you’ll enjoy the rest of the material we’ve been working tirelessly to produce and provide as an act of service and love. Most looking forward to what you have to share with the world and with this global community of Seekers. Much love, Zevi
When I saw Zevi Slavin and John Vervaeke together in my UA-cam feed, I totally fanboi squeed! More seriously, on the serious play + ritual theme, check out Johann Huizanga's Homo Ludens, particularly the chapter on religion. And thank you both for getting together and sharing these ideas
Dear Zevi, I would like to please express the degree to which what you are doing is importantly helping the world. You have helped me greatly in developing a language and method of description (logic) to engage more fully and intellectually honestly with the *very real* spiritual experiences I continue to participate in. This sensibility is *literally* vital to me. These experiences, and my interpretation of them, have been what has carried me through the vicissitudes. If I cannot take them "seriously," that vitality is lost. Therefore learning a language and logic to interpret them in the common parlance has been essential for me. I first saw this video a year or two ago, and I replayed it today on Mardis Gras, as I prepare for Lenten fasting in anticipation of Easter. The fact that I did so is evidence of your effect. I wish you many blessings, and I frequently pray for you, your people (who are also my people), and all of those who get turned into enemies. In Catholicism, every mass we pray for forgiveness, and the strength to forgive others. I don't know where I'm going with this, other than to say thank you thank you thank you. I need you. We need you. We thank you. Again and Again, Aaron
You know that whenever I have the time I enjoy watching your videos (that's a given as I always learn so much). Up till now, I'd only watched one of your conversations with John (the third) which was really good and this was equally phenomenal. As I, more or less, share many of Johns 'beliefs' I do tend to try and those watch videos that don't include him. However, it's definitely like listening to jazz when the two of you are involved. I love your work.
This was brilliant. I can’t say how relevant it was - Discussed so many important aspects of mysticism , embedding such experiences , the interface with psychology and philosophy and theism . Putting into words many concepts I have found difficult to articulate , Daunting though for modern man and even those non dualists to weave all those practices. Looking forward to the next conversation.
Self is not an illusion. Personal identity is an illusion, not a delusion. Illusion informs us about mechanisms of perception. Ego is an idea of self; an idea we protect.
Reciprocal opening is a beautiful way of understanding love as process. With ourselves, with each other, with the cosmos, with consciousness itself, with the fabric of manifest being
If John is getting this excited about your video, that's an instant subscribe from me. Very cool that you're an autodidact too! I think John's concerns around it are very valid but they are problems that can be consciously addressed and avoided.
Hey Daniel. Thanks for the joining Seekers. Nice to have a fellow autodidact here. I’d recommend checking out that vid for yourself 😉 Let me know if you concur with his judgment when you do. Yours, Zevi
Wow! This was an amazing conversation. In addition to the rich philosophical discussion, I’d like to mention that it made me smile to see how much the two of you enjoyed it! It’s plain to see that you’re an big admirer of Dr. Vervaeke’s work, and it was a joy to see how exciting it was for you to have him on. I also appreciated how you make critical statements about some of his idea, but do so in such a gracious and respectful manner that is rarely seen these day. I only recently found your channel while watching ESOTERICA, and I’m already a fan. Keep up the great work!
Thank you friend. That’s very kind of you to say. It’s an honor to be in conversation with such fine thinkers and a pleasure to have you join us for it. Welcome.
I remember finding your new channel and the excitement I experienced. And I've been almost obsessed by the Awakening from the Meaning Crisis series since it was released by John. I love his work. Thanks for sharing this!
Divine sparks, or divine plasma tubes? Wow! Deep gratitude to you both for your potent conspiration. Would like to tie all of this into the foundations of (meta)mathematics, communication, qualia, and our vivacious zoo of inter-synthetic pluralities. Dialogics, ludics, monadicity and so on. Is there a Discord?
"You cannot see the Father but, you can see His light in my face." Truth is the face of the Son; the coherence of Being that is the ground of truth is His light: so it appears to me.
Regarding the Absolute and the Conventional, or as you'd might say, the metaphoric and the literal, or the complex and the simple, refer to two ways of expressing the same underlying substance (when they manage to express something beyond other references that is) In my opinion most of this depends on semantical issues and false inferences, especially due to the overuse of names as if they all meant the same thing, not counting the mistaken homonyms and the loss of etymological roots, and due to the even more overused verb "to be" as if being something meant something besides our attribuition of characteristics, which falls like the tower of babel when we mistake subjective issues for objective ones, then everyone starts talking their own language and no one understands each other. The maps of meaning we created got too big that we start imagining false dichotomies out of gradual and multi factorial issues, disregarding those issues and suffering the consequences. In my opinion the absolute means the best well said, the facts that less change even when they're questioned, and in that inevitable actuality I found what I think people call God. Thank you very much for your efforts, for publishing such interesting content, and for spreading such a wise attitude.
Wow Zevi thank you so much. This is the first time I been on your channel though I seen you a good few times on John Vervaeke's channel and you were amazing there as well. Hearing this, I'm gonna go listen to your series with them again and check your other great looking content out. Even before I explore it I want to say a heartfelt thank you for the lightness, ease and generosity with which you spoke. Elegant and inviting, confident and humble, it was admirable in every way. I want whatever is in your coffee to make you both so delightfully joyous and sharp, aha. You are like a sparing partner that is truly in love with the wrestle of it, the struggle. Thank you man, I feel inspired just by this small window in your work. Feeling lucky to be humbled by you and looking forward to the journey.
The original citation for rites of passage proceeding over a liminal space and into a transformative social role through a symbolic death/rebirth is van Gennep, 1961! It's an anthropology source, which fits the theme of the conversation at that point in the discussion perfectly!
This was awesome. I have been working on meaning and unity for many years. So gratifying to see. Already watched all the “meaning crisis” videos. ❤️🔥👍🏻 John is the encyclopedia, Jordan is the cartographer, and I wrote the book from the source so to speak. The three amigos… I met Jordan Peterson 20 years ago too, we talked like 3 hours straight. I know John is definitely a friend, if not family. You too! ALL THE LOVE ❤️🔥👍🏻🥰 Thank you! So exciting!
Oh man, I don't have time to watch this right now but I'm so excited!!! It sounds like he and I have a lot in common. Actually...this sounds like it could be incredibly helpful for something I'm writing right now. You're crushing it with these interviews.
@@SeekersofUnity I am definitely going to! I just got to watch the rest of the interview and now I'm absolutely convinced that I need to. My project is to create and share these 'psychotechnologies' as he calls them and we seem to agree on even the specific practices which are needed and effective to combat the 'meaning crisis', or as I call it 'the plague of disconnection.' His language is more scientific and mine more religious/mystical, but we seem to have identified the same problem and solution, and are just coming at it from slightly different angles.
Oh my gosh that was incredible bless you both so much… I’ve always wanted this to happen… My heart is more open… Therefore I feel I can listen better to the silence without having to take so much from it… In the “WE” space… 🦋🕊🌹
Also thank you so much for the auto didactic questions I didn’t graduate from high school and I am learning so much I think JOHN is finally getting to a point where he’s in uncharted waters therefore auto didactically learning
A lot of people who come into 12 step programs, often come in with dysfunctional and toxic ideas, about God and religion, from when they were growing up. Often they experience addictions and co-dependency issues in the family home, overlayed with a dysfunctional presentation of religion. The beauty of the 12 step program, is they can come to their own understanding of a Higher Power, that works for them. So it helps them to establish a healthy experience of spirituality. It may even help them, to re-evaluate the religion of their childhood and return to it. This however may mean working through their issues in relation, to that particular religion.
Wow. This conversation puts it plainly. You both have really circles a get close to skimming the surface of the “thing in itself” that you both are inferring.
imagine having access to this information from an underdeveloped country with mediocre universities. Thanks to the one who bestow. Regards from Dominican Republic
Beautiful conversation! I wonder where artistic practices might fit in here, especially when it comes to the section on practices. I'm thinking (from my field) creative writing in particular, whether individually or in workshop formats. I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts!
That was wonderful! First time viewer of this channel, but it most certantly won't be the last. Looking forward to explore this channel. (Long time fan of John, by the way.) A sincerely thanks from an autodidact dabbler in western mysticisism for about 25 years. Thanks again!
Hi Stian. Thank you so much for joining us, glad to have a fellow autodidact come along for the ride. Looking forward to getting to know you. Welcome to Seekers 🙏🏼
Mysticism is inherently ambiguous as the artistic rendition of expiriencal thought through the individual lens of expression. Each of us a tower of babel implying and applying bias and perceptions altering true meanings.
Thank you Ahmed. Part 2 is already up on John’s channel: ua-cam.com/video/h-x4LFV_PfU/v-deo.html Please feel welcomed to check out the rest of our interview playlist and content in general. And.. in leu of pressing the like button repeatedly feel free to press the share button 😉
@@SeekersofUnity I am relistening to it again, there are a lot of points that I didn't fully understand due to my engineering background. Then will be listening to part two.
John! I"M originally from California, but I'm sitting here listening to YOU! ...and loving the conversation, by the way...but this is the second time in the last week I've heard you say "I don't need to sound too California here"... I DO know what you mean, but is there any chance chance you'd be willing to find a better word or phrase that fits what you actually mean a little better. California is just a state.
Mysticism is too be the unknown and just believe in too be something beyond our capabilities of our limited mind as it too be apart of life and conciousness which developed a meaning of reason.
Hey I really think you guys should talk to Christopher Langan about his work on his CTMU the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe. A dialogue between you guys would definitely lead to some new and profound insights. After listening to you both I have an ineffable sense that you guys are on the same track using different language, somewhat
All of us, We, are the poor in spirit; ours is agape, a mountain of agape. Those of this light (flash and thunder), we, are the perennial ecological ground; ours is logos and, we must not separate ourselves.
Wheeewwwwww 4P, phenomenology and neoplatonism with the "law of 3" (triangle with friction between cultural lens and the subjective experience) giving rise to consciousness evolving in increasingly enhanced closeness to what is...
im not sure what the 'BCE' is and how it compares to Enlightenment, but I think a lexicon of perhaps 5-6 of the most uncommon words and acronyms would go a long way to making this accessible.
Hey. Sorry for the inaccessibility. PCE is Forman’s Pure Consciousness Event. You can check out his work online. Anything else that needed a little deciphering?
Plotinus's one is not the same as Brahma or truth imo. It is instead the height of our intellection, and that which creates reality only in terms of our experience. Zevi asks excellent questions about this.
In the last live video you did on John’s channel, you mentioned a book....You said, that it was a French writer I believe...Michel or Michelle....it had compassions of eastern and western magic...and my one clear note, ‘the essence of the west....is the necessity for otherness’. I am hoping that is enough information to get the book title from you.
The brain started as a comfort finder and in us is becoming a coherence detector. Only in an apex position (with language?) could that evolution happen. Ecological perennialism; let's call it that: the wilderness liturgy.
I have watched many of these YT episodes with great interest. Now I would like to say why the whole premise of this Channel is wrong. Unity is hiding in plain sight. There is only unity and can only be unity. It is duality which is the the illusion. Because Unity is complete it is not lacking anything. There is nothing missing. There is no separation. It is not possible to get closer to this unity or further away from it. Unity is not an 'attainment'; it is not a reward for good behaviour or hard work. There is only what is; what arises; what appears to be happening. The way it is, is like this. There is no other reality. What is, is complete because it includes all there is. Since there is not and cannot be any separation, it follows that we are also what is. What is cannot be known. It is unknowable. There is no secret knowledge or technique; no special knowing and necessarily there cannot be any such thing because any attempt to know all there is would also be what is already. There is no subject outside of all there is which can know all there is as an object. There is no separation therefore monism is inescapable. Duality comes from the contracted sense of energy in the body which says 'I am'. I have reality. I have position in time and space. I know. I am separate from what is. Therefore I need to do something; change something; or get something which will make this whole and 'all right.' It is the contracted sense of energy in the body which gives this illusory sense of self which is the essence of separation. When or if this falls away, [it never existed in the first place, it was only an appearance] there is only what is. The illusory self [duality] cannot pull itself up by its own bootstraps in order to be non-dual. There is no practice as such. Nothing happens. There is and only ever has been what is. There is no separation. That is it. My background is in Buddhism. Now, I am not sure how well Buddhism is understood on this forum? Certainly it may be by some, very well understood but I did watch one video on this Channel where two interlocuters clearly were talking about Buddhism with very little knowledge or understanding. Buddhism purports to be monistic but is in fact very dualistic. The Buddha himself taught with an 'open hand' meaning that he held nothing back. There were no 'secret teachings.' "It is hard to realize the essential, the truth is not easily perceived; desire is mastered by him who knows, and to him who sees aright all things are naught. There is, O monks, an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed. Were there not, O monks, this unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated and unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed." This unborn, unoriginated, uncreated realm is sometimes called the island. It is the refuge of the monastic. It is referred to as Sati Sampajanna en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampaja%C3%B1%C3%B1a Which means mindfulness with clear understanding. Sometimes described as 'conscious awareness or even awareness of awareness. Awareness is always in the Present. It is impersonal and universal, therefore it is unconditioned and not self [Anatta. This is one of the main differences with Hinduism which is all about the Atman; true Self]. There is the Noble Eightfold Path of course which is all about such advice as Right Effort; Right Meditation and Right morality and so forth. Now, notice two things; - 1. Sati Sampajanna is held to be something else. It is held to be outside of what is. 2. The individual [self] is on a journey though time and can follow a path to get to a destination which is Nibbana (extinction, liberation from rebirth). This is where Buddhism falls down. Awareness, consciousness and conscious awareness all mean some kind of 'knowing.' Knowing implies separation and separation implies duality. Because there is no separation, there cannot be any knowing since any attempt to know what is, would also be what is. Awareness comes from the body and is therefore conditioned. This conditioned awareness in the body, is not on any journey to find something else. What is, - all there is, is not dependent of the devotions of any body. The body can sacrifice or sing or meditate or stand on one leg or wrap both legs behind its neck but that is just what happens. What is, is not dependent on any of it. There is no self inside the body. No one 'has a life.' There is only life. We are everybody, everywhere and everything all at once. it is life in freefall. That is the unity you are seeking, hiding in plain sight.
@@SeekersofUnity Once, when I was much younger, I was interested in mysticism and also in the Kabbala. I have had a very junior ordination in a Buddhist (Theravadin monastery before and I was also once receiving teachings from a Tibetan Bon Lama). Now I follow neo Advaita.
What is, is 'no thing' or nothing. Nothing cannot be conceptualized. What is appears as everything and yet is also no thing or nothing. It is therefore nothing and everything simultaneously. Nothing appearing as everything and that cannot be known and there is no one to know it. There is no hope for the self, possessed with the need to know. There is no knowing. It is really unkowing.
I often see 'Practice' including meditation as a kind of promissory offering. In Buddhist culture this is quite common as in the idea of making Merit. I cannot speak for Hinduism but I am sure it also happens a lot in that tradition. People like to feel virtuous and they think they will be rewarded for being virtuous. Meditation is seen as a route to being virtuous and they expect to be rewarded. What is does not need you. You are what is. Nothing needs to happen. The next moment does not need to be better than the last. This is it.
Haha. Neoplatonism and Jewish Thought edited by Lenn Goodman certainly changed my thinking is a big way, and David Loy’s Non-Duality, William James’ The Varieties of Religious Experience, were all important for me, but the list goes on and on.
36:21 I dont see why its a problem, you know your claims to knowledge are illusory, so everything is done by neti-neti - the reality is understood through negation and so you avoid reification (also 'Dogen' is said with a hard 'G' , japanese is always a hard 'g' :) Best wishes
38:06 because you have to be “crazy” to get it. It’s not fun though. Know it exists. Don’t go there unless u have to. It’s very dangerous. Nietzsche did it. It didn’t end well.
Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/h-x4LFV_PfU/v-deo.html
Part 3: ua-cam.com/video/kx63NiNsB_0/v-deo.html
Part 4: ua-cam.com/video/yM3PNYeC0ck/v-deo.html
Thanks so much for these. I’m thrilled to have watched this & can go straight to the next! What an absolute treat.
You’re most welcome Christopher. Recording the forth tomorrow. Inshallah.
So glad to see John and you dialogue , a smorgasbord of insight , from one who has familiarity with some of these states of mind and transformation experience right up my ally ever since my first experience of something larger than I yet sitting right under our nose like a mustard seed , mankind will go to great lengths to avoid the SELF
Oh muh science, to justify an ecumenicist return to science’s Gnostic roots and like a devouring black hole assimilate all mysticisms for process theology.
If they are known by their works the radicalism, and war pagan backlash, gender butchery and modern art like the alchemical MLK statue and Gnostic/mystic/esoteric cosmology in every movie and halftime show are what this worldview has yielded.
I shudder to think of its expressions when academia and science reunite with meta mysticism for a unification of the many, to do “real science” beyond what Oppenheimer did, funded by transhumanists and the Gnostic elite, then open sourced to digital hedonists and morons.
It’s the religion of antichrist and will be such an abomination that it will end with the second coming.
It’s a naive and infantile mentality to try and open source this and solve these bad ideas with John’s spiritual acceleration and non pharmacological update to the Timothy Leary mentality.
I found his answer to "who are you?" to be beautiful.
"I'm somebody who aspires to be the kind of lover of wisdom that I see in Socrates, the kind of lover of others that I see in Jesus of Nazareth and the kind of lover of reality that I see in Spinoza and Plotinus".
Thanks so much for this Zevi!!!!
So excited you found Zevi, Dr. Vervaeke.
I was introduced to you through your Rebel Wisdom appearances and you always get me spun up with fresh thoughts and connections.
I’ve been waiting for this overlap ever since I stumbled upon Zevi. This was a fantastic conversation. Let’s get Zevi talking to jonathan pageau as well. Keep up the good work. meaning is emerging
Thank you John. It’s been such a delight to connect with you, to be challenged and inspired in dia-logos. Your generosity of spirit in willing to share, teach, listen, grow and nurture has been astounding and inspiring.
Thank you for doing this interview! I was really inspired to hear that there are people within the scientific community who share my vision and my love of dialogue.
Indeed. 🥰👍🏻
Parmenides understood that no matter how many “parts” he saw, how much diversity and change his senses reported, reality had to consist of a One, which was Unchanging. His sense saw those parts coming together to form that One, but the One, he knew a priori and by the most rigorous reasoning, must already be. It did not lie ahead along a time-line somewhere in the future; it ontologically lay beyond or behind or deeper within the many, now and forever. The pressure of time driving all the pieces to come together into the complete pattern is a sort of voice calling to them, a summoning to return; everything has already been there, since this lay outside time; anamnesis was a memory not of the past, of former time, but of ontology outside of time, of already-complete-then-now-later. A memory of all time unified; this memory stretched in all directions in time, and finally into none: into Being itself: into the heart which is alive. Empedocles supposed it to have been in the past because he remembered it; but if time is cyclic he remembered the future just as well, logically speaking.
Sprituality is good virtue and integration into science is very clever insight, in my case devotion is not experienced many times but buddhist sense of "losing self" is good for concentrating work energy, I could do snow removal by integrating this sense. I have ontological buddhist book and read it, it is great and I would like to attach this reply to insight from the video the above. I am so surprise West academic people also have welcomed buddhist sense for ordinary life wisdom. I am so happy to watch the video.
awesome, been a huge fan of John's work, glad you two found each other!:)
It is possible to be a Christian fundamentalist, as I am, and see deep levels of profound truth found in much of philosophy and world religions as they are all seeking God and truth, and this is certainly so in the lives of mystic seekers because beyond the absolute literal truth that fundamentalist believe in, there is and should be a deep caring and appreciation for all seekers of wisdom on their own independent journey, and this caring soul merely hopes and believes that the truth, whatever it is in reality, will ultimately be found by those who search with all their heart.
Wonderful conversation between two brilliant thinkers. In future conversations, I would love to hear more about self-deception, death anxiety, madness (e.g., schizophrenia), dreams, and drug-induced altered states of consciousness as they relate to the cognitive neuroscience of mystical experience. Thanks for sharing this dialog. I look forward to checking out JV's work in more depth. Shalom!
This was incredible!!! Thank you both so much! Looking forward to listening part 2 -4!!
I'm glad you enjoyed it. Our pleasure. I hope you enjoy what's to come.
I have to say that I probably understood 5% of what you guys where talking about but I have been in awe from the beginning to the end and I must add that I will look at this video again eager to grasp more.
Thank you for being here with us Alessio. It will be a pleasant experience when you come back and the % grows. With love, Zevi
I am so relieved to have found your channel.
There is this moment at the end of this video where I didn’t feel alone in the world in a particular way for the first time. I also cannot, at least not yet, get a doctorate. I don’t have that kind of financial stability. I was raised in fundamentalist Christianity. Now, I am an occultist, mystic, philosopher, and it is astonishing lonely.
This conversation here, is one of the few I have found that speaks to what I am doing and is at the depth of dialogue I seek but rarely find, as I am not privileged with academic opportunity.
Thank you so much for not editing this. I hope you continue to not edit these conversations.
Congratulations on being able to connect with the greater communal dialogue even though you are coming from the edges.
After 16 years of practice and 3 mystic initiations into different wisdom teachings, I have found that there are techniques, I tend to call them ‘occult’ techniques instead of ‘mystical’ techniques, but they do work, and anyone can use them. It is all about being willing to practice of course.
All the mystery wisdoms have beautiful techniques that can be worked with, and by doing so, they reform themselves to speak in resonance with the times we are in.
I have 30 journals worth of recorded experimentation with mystic techniques.
I am 270 pages into my first book, explaining the techniques that I have found, the ones that have worked for everyone I have tried them with.
You give me hope that when I am finally ready to go on UA-cam, that there might be a path to connect to others and get to have the deep conversations I so long for.
Thank you for your work.
Best of luck on your book! I live these conversations as well and I agree with you that it's lovely and rare to find a like mind. I'll subscribe to your channel now for a tiny head start . Peace✌🍻
@@heatherc1563 🙏
Hi Elizabeth, I’m so glad you found us. Uniting together seekers is what this project is all about, so it’s really meaningful to us that you felt less lonely through finding us. We’re less lonely too having you here with us. Thank You. I’m so glad you appreciated what we’re sharing and have no doubt you’ll enjoy the rest of the material we’ve been working tirelessly to produce and provide as an act of service and love. Most looking forward to what you have to share with the world and with this global community of Seekers. Much love, Zevi
@@heatherc1563 .....Hopefully it will not take me forever.
@@SeekersofUnity I really do hope that you make a list of your favorite 10 books on mysticism. 100 would be a bit much. 🙂
When I saw Zevi Slavin and John Vervaeke together in my UA-cam feed, I totally fanboi squeed! More seriously, on the serious play + ritual theme, check out Johann Huizanga's Homo Ludens, particularly the chapter on religion. And thank you both for getting together and sharing these ideas
Dear Zevi,
I would like to please express the degree to which what you are doing is importantly helping the world. You have helped me greatly in developing a language and method of description (logic) to engage more fully and intellectually honestly with the *very real* spiritual experiences I continue to participate in.
This sensibility is *literally* vital to me. These experiences, and my interpretation of them, have been what has carried me through the vicissitudes. If I cannot take them "seriously," that vitality is lost. Therefore learning a language and logic to interpret them in the common parlance has been essential for me.
I first saw this video a year or two ago, and I replayed it today on Mardis Gras, as I prepare for Lenten fasting in anticipation of Easter. The fact that I did so is evidence of your effect.
I wish you many blessings, and I frequently pray for you, your people (who are also my people), and all of those who get turned into enemies. In Catholicism, every mass we pray for forgiveness, and the strength to forgive others.
I don't know where I'm going with this, other than to say thank you thank you thank you. I need you. We need you. We thank you.
Again and Again,
Aaron
Dear Aaron,
Thank you brother. That means more to me than words can articulate.
Thank you. It's been an honor to serve.
With love,
Zevi
You know that whenever I have the time I enjoy watching your videos (that's a given as I always learn so much). Up till now, I'd only watched one of your conversations with John (the third) which was really good and this was equally phenomenal. As I, more or less, share many of Johns 'beliefs' I do tend to try and those watch videos that don't include him. However, it's definitely like listening to jazz when the two of you are involved. I love your work.
Thank you brother. I really appreciate your kind feedback. It means a lot.
This was brilliant. I can’t say how relevant it was - Discussed so many important aspects of mysticism , embedding such experiences , the interface with psychology and philosophy and theism . Putting into words many concepts I have found difficult to articulate , Daunting though for modern man and even those non dualists to weave all those practices. Looking forward to the next conversation.
Thank you Diana. Glad you appreciated it so. The next few conversations can be found linked in the video description. Enjoy :)
Self is not an illusion. Personal identity is an illusion, not a delusion. Illusion informs us about mechanisms of perception. Ego is an idea of self; an idea we protect.
Well said Jeff. Thank you.
@@SeekersofUnity I can't thank you enough, Zevi: manna👍
41:32 all you need is love. It’s the only infinite emotion. All else fades.
Glad to find you guys. I think you gave one of the best introductory interviews that John as ever done. Well done
Glad you found us. Thank you for the kind words. We try.
Reciprocal opening is a beautiful way of understanding love as process. With ourselves, with each other, with the cosmos, with consciousness itself, with the fabric of manifest being
If John is getting this excited about your video, that's an instant subscribe from me. Very cool that you're an autodidact too! I think John's concerns around it are very valid but they are problems that can be consciously addressed and avoided.
Hey Daniel. Thanks for the joining Seekers. Nice to have a fellow autodidact here. I’d recommend checking out that vid for yourself 😉 Let me know if you concur with his judgment when you do. Yours,
Zevi
Wow! This was an amazing conversation. In addition to the rich philosophical discussion, I’d like to mention that it made me smile to see how much the two of you enjoyed it! It’s plain to see that you’re an big admirer of Dr. Vervaeke’s work, and it was a joy to see how exciting it was for you to have him on. I also appreciated how you make critical statements about some of his idea, but do so in such a gracious and respectful manner that is rarely seen these day.
I only recently found your channel while watching ESOTERICA, and I’m already a fan. Keep up the great work!
Thank you friend. That’s very kind of you to say. It’s an honor to be in conversation with such fine thinkers and a pleasure to have you join us for it. Welcome.
Keeping it simple. We can look at ourselves (Subjective). Looking at the World (Objective). Looking through the eyes of the Transcendent (Mystical)
I remember finding your new channel and the excitement I experienced. And I've been almost obsessed by the Awakening from the Meaning Crisis series since it was released by John. I love his work. Thanks for sharing this!
Thank you for sharing that excitement with us 😊
Divine sparks, or divine plasma tubes? Wow! Deep gratitude to you both for your potent conspiration. Would like to tie all of this into the foundations of (meta)mathematics, communication, qualia, and our vivacious zoo of inter-synthetic pluralities. Dialogics, ludics, monadicity and so on. Is there a Discord?
This is the best interview / dia logos I’ve watch in a while.
Thank you Mike 🙏🏼❤️
Thanks John and Zevi!
You’re most welcome. Thank you for joining us.
"You cannot see the Father but, you can see His light in my face." Truth is the face of the Son; the coherence of Being that is the ground of truth is His light: so it appears to me.
Regarding the Absolute and the Conventional, or as you'd might say, the metaphoric and the literal, or the complex and the simple, refer to two ways of expressing the same underlying substance (when they manage to express something beyond other references that is)
In my opinion most of this depends on semantical issues and false inferences, especially due to the overuse of names as if they all meant the same thing, not counting the mistaken homonyms and the loss of etymological roots, and due to the even more overused verb "to be" as if being something meant something besides our attribuition of characteristics, which falls like the tower of babel when we mistake subjective issues for objective ones, then everyone starts talking their own language and no one understands each other.
The maps of meaning we created got too big that we start imagining false dichotomies out of gradual and multi factorial issues, disregarding those issues and suffering the consequences.
In my opinion the absolute means the best well said, the facts that less change even when they're questioned, and in that inevitable actuality I found what I think people call God.
Thank you very much for your efforts, for publishing such interesting content, and for spreading such a wise attitude.
Wow Zevi thank you so much. This is the first time I been on your channel though I seen you a good few times on John Vervaeke's channel and you were amazing there as well. Hearing this, I'm gonna go listen to your series with them again and check your other great looking content out. Even before I explore it I want to say a heartfelt thank you for the lightness, ease and generosity with which you spoke. Elegant and inviting, confident and humble, it was admirable in every way. I want whatever is in your coffee to make you both so delightfully joyous and sharp, aha. You are like a sparing partner that is truly in love with the wrestle of it, the struggle. Thank you man, I feel inspired just by this small window in your work. Feeling lucky to be humbled by you and looking forward to the journey.
Wow. This is the kindness comment ever. Thank you so very much for seeing and saying that. All my love, Zevi
The original citation for rites of passage proceeding over a liminal space and into a transformative social role through a symbolic death/rebirth is van Gennep, 1961! It's an anthropology source, which fits the theme of the conversation at that point in the discussion perfectly!
Really touched!🙏
🙏🏼
So glad I went back and checked this out. Brilliant stuff Zevi. Keen to check out the rest of the conversations 🙏💕
Thank you Kaleb. Glad you enjoyed it.
Beautiful, thank you
🙏🏼
This was awesome. I have been working on meaning and unity for many years. So gratifying to see.
Already watched all the “meaning crisis” videos. ❤️🔥👍🏻 John is the encyclopedia, Jordan is the cartographer, and I wrote the book from the source so to speak. The three amigos… I met Jordan Peterson 20 years ago too, we talked like 3 hours straight. I know John is definitely a friend, if not family. You too! ALL THE LOVE ❤️🔥👍🏻🥰 Thank you! So exciting!
Thank you friend. Glad you enjoyed it :)
Oh man, I don't have time to watch this right now but I'm so excited!!! It sounds like he and I have a lot in common. Actually...this sounds like it could be incredibly helpful for something I'm writing right now. You're crushing it with these interviews.
Thank you Justin 🙏🏼 You should reach out to John, he’s awesome.
@@SeekersofUnity I am definitely going to! I just got to watch the rest of the interview and now I'm absolutely convinced that I need to. My project is to create and share these 'psychotechnologies' as he calls them and we seem to agree on even the specific practices which are needed and effective to combat the 'meaning crisis', or as I call it 'the plague of disconnection.' His language is more scientific and mine more religious/mystical, but we seem to have identified the same problem and solution, and are just coming at it from slightly different angles.
You should check out the work he’s doing and the communities he’s building/part of around these practices. It’s very cool stuff
You’re too up inside your own head. The truth is in the body. Primordial consciousness. 37:01
Thank you, thank you, thank you both for sharing this beautiful dialogue. 🙏❤️🙏
You’re most welcome Michael.
Oh my gosh that was incredible bless you both so much…
I’ve always wanted this to happen…
My heart is more open…
Therefore I feel I can listen better to the silence without having to take so much from it…
In the “WE” space…
🦋🕊🌹
Also thank you so much for the auto didactic questions I didn’t graduate from high school and I am learning so much I think JOHN is finally getting to a point where he’s in uncharted waters therefore auto didactically learning
A lot of people who come into 12 step programs, often come in with dysfunctional and toxic ideas, about God and religion, from when they were growing up. Often they experience addictions and co-dependency issues in the family home, overlayed with a dysfunctional presentation of religion. The beauty of the 12 step program, is they can come to their own understanding of a Higher Power, that works for them. So it helps them to establish a healthy experience of spirituality. It may even help them, to re-evaluate the religion of their childhood and return to it. This however may mean working through their issues in relation, to that particular religion.
Wonderful discourse, thank you both for sharing.
Our pleasure. Thank you for joining us.
Wow. This conversation puts it plainly. You both have really circles a get close to skimming the surface of the “thing in itself” that you both are inferring.
What a gift, thanks.
imagine having access to this information from an underdeveloped country with mediocre universities. Thanks to the one who bestow. Regards from Dominican Republic
You’re most welcome Angel 🙏🏼
Thanks for joining us in this delightfully shrinking world.
Two awsome Humans enriching all our lives thank you
Thank you Andrew 😊🙏🏼
What a great Tikkun wonderful 😀
Beautiful conversation! I wonder where artistic practices might fit in here, especially when it comes to the section on practices. I'm thinking (from my field) creative writing in particular, whether individually or in workshop formats. I'd be very curious to hear your thoughts!
That was wonderful!
First time viewer of this channel, but it most certantly won't be the last. Looking forward to explore this channel.
(Long time fan of John, by the way.)
A sincerely thanks from an autodidact dabbler in western mysticisism for about 25 years.
Thanks again!
Hi Stian. Thank you so much for joining us, glad to have a fellow autodidact come along for the ride. Looking forward to getting to know you. Welcome to Seekers 🙏🏼
Fabulous, thanks so much!
You’re most welcome
Mysticism is inherently ambiguous as the artistic rendition of expiriencal thought through the individual lens of expression. Each of us a tower of babel implying and applying bias and perceptions altering true meanings.
Absolutely wonderful conversation. ❤
Awesome - so glad you two got to do this, love both of your channels!
Thank you Yosef 🙏🏼
oh man, I wanted to press the "like" button more than a hundred time, an amazing interview and discussion looking forward to watching more like it.
Thank you Ahmed. Part 2 is already up on John’s channel: ua-cam.com/video/h-x4LFV_PfU/v-deo.html Please feel welcomed to check out the rest of our interview playlist and content in general. And.. in leu of pressing the like button repeatedly feel free to press the share button 😉
@@SeekersofUnity I am relistening to it again, there are a lot of points that I didn't fully understand due to my engineering background. Then will be listening to part two.
Awesome awesome awesome, soooo turned onto love and mystical sapiential ontology.
This will be great
Fantastic content
John! I"M originally from California, but I'm sitting here listening to YOU! ...and loving the conversation, by the way...but this is the second time in the last week I've heard you say "I don't need to sound too California here"... I DO know what you mean, but is there any chance chance you'd be willing to find a better word or phrase that fits what you actually mean a little better. California is just a state.
Woahh, amazing conversation. Thank you both. Seekers of Unity - what a great and exciting channel! Subscribed.
Thank you so much Jonatan. Would love to hear your feedback on the rest of out material. Welcome to Seekers 🙏🏼
So great !
Thank you Stanley. I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Ineffability is a frontier.
Word.
In Plato’s time there was not yet a distinction between Epistemology and Ontology. In a way, Plato’s Forms are a reification of Kant’s Categories.
Mysticism is too be the unknown and just believe in too be something beyond our capabilities of our limited mind as it too be apart of life and conciousness which developed a meaning of reason.
Hey I really think you guys should talk to Christopher Langan about his work on his CTMU the Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe. A dialogue between you guys would definitely lead to some new and profound insights. After listening to you both I have an ineffable sense that you guys are on the same track using different language, somewhat
Spiritually enabled scientism!!🍻🍻👍
Every time i hear the vampire metaphor, i get to think on the "veil of ignorance" by John Rawls.
seeing i got a like, id like to add that this type of interaction is how we make "the world" bether.
Inspiring and infkuential
I figure eventually if I listen to people like this then since it's so far over my head eventually I'll magically catch up and understand it somehow
Meaning is place: anyone in your place would be exactly you. I trust you like my own soul.
How many times would you forgive yourself?
All of us, We, are the poor in spirit; ours is agape, a mountain of agape. Those of this light (flash and thunder), we, are the perennial ecological ground; ours is logos and, we must not separate ourselves.
My brain is officially scrambled. I made it about halfway through, lol...
chapeau! a beautiful conversation, have a wonderful day
Thank you Miron 🙏🏼 You too ☺️
Zevi - What about Death and rebirth?
John - Well I read this book...
🤣🤣
Thanks
Thank you Victoriah ☺️🙏🏼
Wheeewwwwww 4P, phenomenology and neoplatonism with the "law of 3" (triangle with friction between cultural lens and the subjective experience) giving rise to consciousness evolving in increasingly enhanced closeness to what is...
Nice!
YES! LOVE! YES!!
❤️
No way! This is amazing!
Thank you Timber 🙏🏼
@@SeekersofUnity Thank you Zevi! Excited to see part 2. You and John finding one another was a pleasant surprise! 😎
1:24:46 brilliant
im not sure what the 'BCE' is and how it compares to Enlightenment,
but I think a lexicon of perhaps 5-6 of the most uncommon words and acronyms would go a long way to making this accessible.
Hey. Sorry for the inaccessibility. PCE is Forman’s Pure Consciousness Event. You can check out his work online. Anything else that needed a little deciphering?
One year of thinking to release After Socrates. 😮
Yes! 🔥
😎
Excellent stuff 😍
Plotinus's one is not the same as Brahma or truth imo. It is instead the height of our intellection, and that which creates reality only in terms of our experience.
Zevi asks excellent questions about this.
Thank you Dal 🙏🏼
Angels wrestle like lagoon fish: slippery and deep.
In the last live video you did on John’s channel, you mentioned a book....You said, that it was a French writer I believe...Michel or Michelle....it had compassions of eastern and western magic...and my one clear note, ‘the essence of the west....is the necessity for otherness’. I am hoping that is enough information to get the book title from you.
Yes. La Fable Mystique - The Mystic Fable by Michel de Certeau
@@SeekersofUnity 🙏
We need a reformation, not a revolution. That mountain must move
thanks!! a bit less lonly now :)
Here with you Adiel.
1:22:25 ❤❤❤
The brain started as a comfort finder and in us is becoming a coherence detector. Only in an apex position (with language?) could that evolution happen. Ecological perennialism; let's call it that: the wilderness liturgy.
Influential
I have watched many of these YT episodes with great interest.
Now I would like to say why the whole premise of this Channel is wrong.
Unity is hiding in plain sight. There is only unity and can only be unity. It is duality which is the the illusion. Because Unity is complete it is not lacking anything. There is nothing missing. There is no separation. It is not possible to get closer to this unity or further away from it. Unity is not an 'attainment'; it is not a reward for good behaviour or hard work.
There is only what is; what arises; what appears to be happening. The way it is, is like this. There is no other reality. What is, is complete because it includes all there is. Since there is not and cannot be any separation, it follows that we are also what is.
What is cannot be known. It is unknowable. There is no secret knowledge or technique; no special knowing and necessarily there cannot be any such thing because any attempt to know all there is would also be what is already. There is no subject outside of all there is which can know all there is as an object. There is no separation therefore monism is inescapable.
Duality comes from the contracted sense of energy in the body which says 'I am'. I have reality. I have position in time and space. I know. I am separate from what is. Therefore I need to do something; change something; or get something which will make this whole and 'all right.'
It is the contracted sense of energy in the body which gives this illusory sense of self which is the essence of separation. When or if this falls away, [it never existed in the first place, it was only an appearance] there is only what is.
The illusory self [duality] cannot pull itself up by its own bootstraps in order to be non-dual.
There is no practice as such. Nothing happens. There is and only ever has been what is. There is no separation. That is it.
My background is in Buddhism. Now, I am not sure how well Buddhism is understood on this forum? Certainly it may be by some, very well understood but I did watch one video on this Channel where two interlocuters clearly were talking about Buddhism with very little knowledge or understanding.
Buddhism purports to be monistic but is in fact very dualistic. The Buddha himself taught with an 'open hand' meaning that he held nothing back. There were no 'secret teachings.'
"It is hard to realize the essential, the truth is not easily perceived; desire is mastered by him who knows, and to him who sees aright all things are naught. There is, O monks, an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed. Were there not, O monks, this unborn, unoriginated, uncreated, unformed, there would be no escape from the world of the born, originated, created, formed. Since, O monks, there is an unborn, unoriginated, uncreated and unformed, therefore is there an escape from the born, originated, created, formed."
This unborn, unoriginated, uncreated realm is sometimes called the island. It is the refuge of the monastic. It is referred to as Sati Sampajanna en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampaja%C3%B1%C3%B1a
Which means mindfulness with clear understanding. Sometimes described as 'conscious awareness or even awareness of awareness. Awareness is always in the Present. It is impersonal and universal, therefore it is unconditioned and not self [Anatta. This is one of the main differences with Hinduism which is all about the Atman; true Self].
There is the Noble Eightfold Path of course which is all about such advice as Right Effort; Right Meditation and Right morality and so forth.
Now, notice two things; -
1. Sati Sampajanna is held to be something else. It is held to be outside of what is.
2. The individual [self] is on a journey though time and can follow a path to get to a destination which is Nibbana (extinction, liberation from rebirth).
This is where Buddhism falls down.
Awareness, consciousness and conscious awareness all mean some kind of 'knowing.' Knowing implies separation and separation implies duality. Because there is no separation, there cannot be any knowing since any attempt to know what is, would also be what is. Awareness comes from the body and is therefore conditioned. This conditioned awareness in the body, is not on any journey to find something else. What is, - all there is, is not dependent of the devotions of any body. The body can sacrifice or sing or meditate or stand on one leg or wrap both legs behind its neck but that is just what happens. What is, is not dependent on any of it.
There is no self inside the body. No one 'has a life.' There is only life. We are everybody, everywhere and everything all at once. it is life in freefall.
That is the unity you are seeking, hiding in plain sight.
Thank you Mark 🙏🏼❤️
@@SeekersofUnity Once, when I was much younger, I was interested in mysticism and also in the Kabbala. I have had a very junior ordination in a Buddhist (Theravadin monastery before and I was also once receiving teachings from a Tibetan Bon Lama). Now I follow neo Advaita.
What is, is 'no thing' or nothing. Nothing cannot be conceptualized. What is appears as everything and yet is also no thing or nothing. It is therefore nothing and everything simultaneously. Nothing appearing as everything and that cannot be known and there is no one to know it. There is no hope for the self, possessed with the need to know. There is no knowing. It is really unkowing.
I often see 'Practice' including meditation as a kind of promissory offering. In Buddhist culture this is quite common as in the idea of making Merit. I cannot speak for Hinduism but I am sure it also happens a lot in that tradition. People like to feel virtuous and they think they will be rewarded for being virtuous. Meditation is seen as a route to being virtuous and they expect to be rewarded.
What is does not need you. You are what is. Nothing needs to happen. The next moment does not need to be better than the last. This is it.
Wow!!
Zevi, can you create a video of you books that most influenced you?
Thank you for the suggestion. It’s a great idea.
@@SeekersofUnity Just finished this. Your a real boss, Zevi. Can you quickly list a book or two?
Haha. Neoplatonism and Jewish Thought edited by Lenn Goodman certainly changed my thinking is a big way, and David Loy’s Non-Duality, William James’ The Varieties of Religious Experience, were all important for me, but the list goes on and on.
@@SeekersofUnity thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Considering the news; I’m ok with my living under a rock.
Word.
so what does that actually mean?🤔
What just happened?
Dialogos?
It’s effable because it’s a part of the brain that has no language. It’s felt. 35:21
🙏😻
Not knowing a guy with barely 30k subs makes me someone who lives under a rock. Nice
Under or on. I really covered all my bases there 😉
@@SeekersofUnity What do mean by living on a rock?
The planet we live on..
@@SeekersofUnity Why would you say that we live on a rock (planet) in this context?
Purely for shits and gigs.
36:21 I dont see why its a problem, you know your claims to knowledge are illusory, so everything is done by neti-neti - the reality is understood through negation and so you avoid reification
(also 'Dogen' is said with a hard 'G' , japanese is always a hard 'g' :)
Best wishes
38:06 because you have to be “crazy” to get it. It’s not fun though. Know it exists. Don’t go there unless u have to. It’s very dangerous. Nietzsche did it. It didn’t end well.
University is a psychotechnology; isn't it? That'll do: the library will have all of the old ideas.
Our meaning crisis is a *direct* result of foreign language liturgy.
iam ‘before’ IAM
iamIAM
iamIAMiamIAM . . .