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This was such a nice surprise for me to see these three in diologos. I am a very solitary person, kicking around these discussion points in my own head all my life. Having not found anyone in my life that is half as concerned about these talking points as myself, I have felt alone in my belief of the meaning crisis and its causes… until I found this corner of UA-cam. Thank you Justin, Levi & John. I hope one day my work becomes relevant enough to be in diologos with you all in the future.
I’ve never felt gratitude before for my entire lack of a feeling of belonging or meaning. So thanks for that. I’ve always had to grapple with how to know things and why there isn’t such a thing as meaning and why I don’t belong anywhere or feel connected to anything, but now I feel sorry for y’all having not had to make your own way in this sense since childhood. What I settle on is being useful and feeling joy fiercely and imminently. Great discussion as always, thanks!
Yes! When you recognize that the meaning the ruling class imposed on you growing up didn't match the reality you observe, and then you spend your whole life figuring out what things mean TO YOU, you're off to a much better start than if you had gone through life without recognizing it, and only recognizing it now, when the world has gotten so messed up that you'd have to be delusional to believe the meaning they imposed on us! 😅
3:05 Mr Vervaeke is happy of this dialogue...but it covers sadness, that permeates my own life, the lack of interlocutors in everyday life about an abundance of topics, like this one. My father, who has been a friend and intellectual companion all my life ( I am now 53yo), where having this conversation about his age (86yo) and it came to my mind how lonely my life will be when he departs.....one of the reasons that make follow Dr Sledge, and Zvi and Dra Puca, so there, I said it. May the Divine bless you all.
I’m an assistant professor of psychology myself, and this was so refreshing to watch, it feels nice to know that the ideas I want to pursue in psych are being talked about. I often feel like a little island in my department!
@@crypto_hodler6948 ahh such a delight to see a fellow ripple hodler also into psych, great minds think alike! ill meet u at the moon very🌙 soon brother😜🚀
@@crypto_hodler6948 Thank you for your analysis. I'm sure its based on a deep well of knowledge of OPs unnamed psych department and field of research.😕
All three of these men are quite exceptional in my opinion. They have powerful minds, obviously, but what impresses me most is that their hearts are equally as strong.
I accidentally read Dr. Sledge's shirt as "Goy Division" before I realized what I was looking at... Anyway, this discussion was an unknown pleasure and I will be heavily anticipating parts 2 and 3 as we get closer
My attempt at describing "The meaning crisis" in simple terms. The meaning crisis has emerged as society has gone down the path of scientific materialism. Since the enlightenment we've uncovered an enormous amount of information about the universe, but we as individuals are no longer a part of the picture. Where narratives of the past build a worldview from the human outwards, where as this scientific classification looks at humanity, not as the reason for which we can understand it all, rather as a tiny spec in a list of information. Humanity is a word in a dictionary. Where I would argue that we (humans) better understand things when we understand it in relationship to ourselves. And noting that our experiences first begin with sensation as the Buddha taught, pleasant and unpleasant. We classify different types of pleasant and unpleasant sensations into physical, emotional, and thoughts (one layer of abstraction). And we build narratives about how these sensations arise as we interact with that world (another layer of abstraction). For most of history, we took those stories of our relationship with sensations that arise as we interact with the world (I felt afraid when the tiger growled in the bushes near me), and we abstract it once further into a story where others can put themselves. But the abstraction has gone so far for most individuals, where they no longer understand the stories that reaffirms that knowledge into their lives, information use to be relevant because it was necessary for survival or societal fit, but with so much of it, and such highly abstract classifications the information has become a jumble of disconnected noise. Where stories and analogies create the patterns that allow us to see information within the noise (to see shapes in amongst millions of stars), and experience utilizing that information helps us relate those patterns back within us. To internalize the knowledge, and subsequently cultivate wisdom. The meaning crisis is that information due to hyper-specialisation has become so abundant and abstract that it no longer has relevance to us, yet to solve the crisis we need to find new ways to help people navigate the patterns of information so it becomes relatable to them, and they can build their own stories based on their pathway through the stars, through the millions of nodes of information. And we can both become teachers and students again as we engage in dialogue, not debate, about the patterns we see.
I think there are many science communicators that have addressed the impersonality that comes from the highly abstract, technical layers of reality we've reached. Carl Sagan's "we are all made of star stuff". Hank Green's soapbox about how all of life we know and have never known is a continuation of a specific kind of chemistry that has continued, unbroken, for 30% of the life of the universe itself. And others bring that personal self-knowingness into harmony with a much greater and vaster whole.
I'm seeing a lot of Heidegger in this. Instead of being Beings who exist in an imminent way with the reality we are part of (ie. understanding reality through our direct interaction with it), we create attractions and standing reserves of knowledge which makes everything in the world into nothing more than objects and tools with definitions and purposes relating to some specific need or ideology. A tree is no longer everything that a tree can be, it is only a source of wood or fruit. In order to regain a meaningful connection to reality, we need to learn how to live with it and as a part of it, rather than viewing it as something apart from us and only as something which can serve some specific function.
I love how deep this conversation went, to the very foundations of reality. I actually thought that, while somewhat mind-bending, that was really valuable. Excited to hear about the cognitive functions of ritual!
Awesome to see the three of you working through this together, I've followed each of you for some years now and very much appreciate your perspectives. Thanks for your work and insights, all of you.
thanks god for youtube so us stoners can still be a part of the conversation :) but seriously thank you guys for this talk. looking forward for the next
As a Christian I can relate to this crisis, since after all what other situation would have driven Jews of the last centuries BCE towards apocalyptic thinking? The same situation that religious and secular folks are falling into now, leading them to apocalyptic thinking. Yet the death of Christ provides the way out of or rather into the crisis. It shows us how a new organizing principle can be formed after we let go of our prior attachments: family, country, state
Scientific materialism isn't the cause of this, but a symptom that could pave the way towards a materialistic organizing principle. Science good. Alienation good.
I feel like 1)cognitive science is still so low resolution and 2) our actual level of cognitive ability is busy poking pinholes in the ceiling of our cognitive ability to understand reality.
Love this conversation. It feels like the time to for custom tailored mythologies for each individual. We have to realize that we as human animals NEED myths to properly function. Myths are not lies but poetic explanation/metaphorical instruction on how to relate to this inexplainable universe.
In relation to the profoundness of sharing cognition in person as opposed to digitally, magic the gathering is much more fun to play in person than online arena. As much of an opinion this is, I feel like it has some relevance to the dynamic of being.
This is 100% going over my head but it works on an AMSR level, great background while I'm working and trying to concentrate because I don't get distracted 😄
The challenge is that charlatans and fraudsters have a more free hand to pursue their selfish ends on non propositional claims. However because there is less opportunity for them in that space in modern times they have had to fake their way as bad scientists, which is why so many people have now given up on science. Now the propositionalists can't be trusted either. That's why the remembering of what wisdom is is so vital to the moment and why I am grateful for the work that the three of you do
JV's comment about phenomenology presupposed in all other truth-seeking endeavors is very important. That is the crux of the meaning crisis - the failure to clearly perceive the overlap between phenomenology and ontology (phenomenon and noumenon) in our real-time cognitive activity. The bridge between these was most clearly laid out by Rudolf Steiner in Philosophy of Spiritual Activity (1895). There, the phenomenology of spiritual activity becomes epistemology and epistemology becomes ontology. This question can certainly be decided with intuitive certainty if we allow ourselves the opportunity to experience our own spiritual activity participating in the phenomenal flow. The mystical tradition has much to offer on this question as well, yet as Zevi alluded, mysticism should also be permeated with lucid and logical thinking.
I just had the opportunity to listen to this inspiring and often affirming discussion. That the three of you would take the time to offer these events is incredibly generous, thank you so very much. I am left with so much to think about leaving me with a feeling of being very much alive. I look forward to the next discussions. Again, thank you so very much.
I appreciate this discourse with academic philosophers who are welded to the search for the miraculous, the truth, the meaning, the reality of our lives in this ponderous world. I favor metaphysics and epistemology far above the logic/ethics/aesthetic of bottom case academic philosophy. We can all unite in the pursuit of a universal understanding of the pathways to end suffering and feel the bliss which we suspect the very small number of mystics are capable of living daily in the presence of a loving reality.
This is the kind of discussion I thought would be the norm between the departments of psychology, philosophy, and religion when I went to a little college with a reputation for both academic rigor and counterculture. As it turned out, the three departments had almost nothing to do with each other.
Sledge's question at 44:15 resonates a lot with me as computer scientist :) I would've loved to hear what logicians working in constructive logic would thought of Vervaeke's comments, the notion of non-propositional knowledge reminds me of Jean-Yves Girard's Blind Spot book/lectures.
Although at times I'm barely clinging on to what the conversation is about (which might be the part I should try and gain more understanding of), this is really great to hear. Especially when making the point that ritual without cognitive understanding will not help, as I can attest to that: having come some distance back from a place of deep meaninglessness, proposals of meditating etc. have always appeared to be incredibly superficial and almost ridiculing to the depth of my problem.
Reading the chat on the side as the video went on was so distracting, often such cogent and penetrating questions and insights even just in the chat competing with y'all's incredibly illuminating talk. Thank you so much for this! Excited to check out the parts on John and Zevi's channels!
"I expect to pass through this world but once; any good thing therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow-creature, let me do it now; let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again" -Stephen Grellet
Man always gets in their own way...they seek ALL knowledge and truth in a dualistic, chaotic world that by it's very nature will keep him from it, for ALL truth can only be found beyond this world. It is the journey toward that truth, toward God, that is possible here. The journey toward morality, truth, and all virtue is a journey toward God and not a destination to be found and sat upon.
This was a fascinating conversation, if a wee bit technical for a dilettante such as myself! Very broadly speaking, my main of contention with the “communal approach,” favoured by Zevi and Justin, is that it is too close to “faith-based knowledge” as contagion more than to a “loyal deference” to the transcendent in oneself. I guess I’m too much of a Luciferian to tread comfortably that (very?) thin line between community and gregariousness, and I keep hearing the old adage that “all gregariousness is demonic,” which I interpret as referring to the betrayal (i.e., the lie) of that loyalty to one’s uniqueness as an expression of the fullness of “God.” Anyway, it’s good to see that “beautiful minds do find each other,” and now let’s move on to part 2!!
1:14:55 This conversation reminds me of Leszek Kołakowski’s book - I believe it was in If There Is No God - bridging the gap between Cartesian science perspective and the religious or mystical perspective- the elaboration by Vervaeke on the different types of knowledge that lay outside the logical knowledge I think is compelling and somethings newer
This is the coolest thing I’ve ever seen in my life. I have such tremendous admiration for the work of each of you, and to see it come together is like a fever dream to me. To me you are heroes and someone should write an epic based on you.
Well, amazing discussions... not easy to follow - at least in the later years of "modern life" - but again, challanging, eye opening. I wish I had more basic knowledge to be able to challenge this on the assumption level, as you made a lot. What remained is to take it on the basic logical level. I really appreciate John and Zevi both made statements that made me think. Even though I come from the study background common with John, his language was the most difficult for me, but I put it on my reductionist nature. Thank you guys a lot. I am looking forward to the followup!
wonderful topic! Although it lagged terribly in the middle - the concept of the topic that we have to move forward and can't search backwards (and yet stand on the shoulders of giants) for humanity's next understanding is a great understanding.
I think this is beginning of the unearthing or introduction to a whole new field of study. Well, perhaps it isn’t entirely new, but the codifying of bits of several studies into one. A bridge between disciplines. Much as Anthropology emerged from Psychology and biology where a needed bridge existed. This is the start of new and to some level renewed thought.
This is most certainly a discussion worth pursuing in depth and from diverse perspectives. Thank you all for collaborating and contributing. I just finished listening to content from Rabbi Joey Rosenfeld on “simcha,” with references to Rabbi Nachman of Breslov. This tied in nicely with your piece. The search for meaning has led me down some unexpected paths, Kabbalah being one of them. I’m not Jewish, but the more I reflect, the more I believe that my interest lies primarily in the language-the way in which spiritual concepts are presented and related to the human experience. Complexity is acknowledged and explored. Simplicity is revisited and illuminated for the sake of redemption. It can be difficult to stay oriented to joy in brokenness, but I find meaning and great value in the struggle. Blessings to you ALL 🕊️
John wins... Im😂 jk, not really. I truly can't convey how truly joyful this exchange amongst you 3 has been. Thank you!!!! Justtin!!!! Thank you... Reality is ugly, finding the beauty is the miracle and finding these truths matters.
That was a brilliant discussion and I am glad it will be going on for more episodes. Enjoy each of your own channels already, the benefit of your ideas entering the relational field of each others is great to be a part of through listening (and commenting). Other forms of knowing is something I am interested in in regards to poetry, and how the language of poetry expresses a way of knowing that is probably somewhere closer to what we learn from ritual (itself interrelated to ritual in both the writing and speaking of it). I find it baffling that many of these topics seem not to include more about the nature of language in relation to poetry, though. Are any of you interested in it? Excited for more!
im only about 45 minutes in but this conversation is insane to be listening to, i've been working on a book of philosophical, theological, and aesthetic notes for the past few years and it feels like you all have come to the exact same conclusions im coming to with respect to meaning, structure, ontology, society, ect. clearly theres something in the water of 2024s well. im tempted to send a copy of the book when its hopefully done next year!
I actually came to Esoterica because I was looking for information for a story I was writing lol. I stayed because of the anthropological & psychological history they provide. They are windows to the past peoples, what they valued & desired. It’s fascinating to me.
Interesting discussion. I did watch it live. While I didn't get all of it, I think I understood the overall idea(s). Need to read more off the Esoterica Reading List before I can understand more of it. (I'm an engineer. Got experience what non-technical type feel when listening to a few engineers/scientist/technical types talk! 🙃)
"Nobody is more postmodern than someone trying to be trad" I think I understand what you're getting at here but would you mind commenting a bit on what exactly you mean? Interesting point
Hi,this is a really good conversation,,I think ,,how to find words to express understanding,,is it that that they can't or won't open their hearts to the connection they profess,?.forgive my calling people they.
My layman's view regarding the validity pf non-propisitional knowing is that logic is one game that minds can play. There are other games (i.e., non-propositonal knowing), but they exist within their own respective domains. These other games do not invalidate or contradict the game of logic and propositions. Everything can be captured by logic, but there are more moves we can make besides "capturing things". We can do more than manipulate propositions, even though everything we do can be described with propositions.
Something you ( Dr. Sledge) mentioned early in the discussion reminded me of the System of a Down song - ‘Science’. Themes of contemporary value systems failing to capture what humans truly care about
Your comments about the importance of "relation" make me think that the language (or at least the general point of view) of category theory could be useful for the study of mystical systems and concepts. It's proving to be incredibly useful for math, logic, and computer science, by providing a framework for understanding structure entirely as a construct of relationships between "objects" within a certain "context" (or category). I'd love to see it make its way into other academic fields, like how Spivak showed in his book that it can be applied to scientific thinking and modeling. I don't suppose anyone is currently using it to study topics in esotericism? Maybe it's not as useful as I hope. But it's a curious subject, and more people should know about and use it. It's essentially the mathematical study of "sameness". I'd love to see it used in the study of the structure and theory of ritual. I've been thinking more about that topic in particular, lately.
Wonderful hope for this convo. Inspired within the first 10 min… Realization: The Meaning Crisis can be partly understood as the culmination of cultivation of human consciousness (and metaconsciousness), and the risk that that is happening while we are confused about the Nature of Reality. We are treating Phusis in the Kosmos way too much like a Sentence, and not enough like a Sound.
Fellas. What a treat! I want to meet in person with you guys and start a conversation. Maybe for a movie or book format: HUGE IF TRUE Huge: God (duh), his death?, Deep Continuity, synoptic worldview integration If: Science, Mysticism, Epistemic Humility, Faith True: Ground of Reality, participation, Dialogical reason (and self), dialethism, etc, etc. etc.
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This was such a nice surprise for me to see these three in diologos. I am a very solitary person, kicking around these discussion points in my own head all my life. Having not found anyone in my life that is half as concerned about these talking points as myself, I have felt alone in my belief of the meaning crisis and its causes… until I found this corner of UA-cam. Thank you Justin, Levi & John. I hope one day my work becomes relevant enough to be in diologos with you all in the future.
I’ve never felt gratitude before for my entire lack of a feeling of belonging or meaning. So thanks for that. I’ve always had to grapple with how to know things and why there isn’t such a thing as meaning and why I don’t belong anywhere or feel connected to anything, but now I feel sorry for y’all having not had to make your own way in this sense since childhood. What I settle on is being useful and feeling joy fiercely and imminently. Great discussion as always, thanks!
Yes! When you recognize that the meaning the ruling class imposed on you growing up didn't match the reality you observe, and then you spend your whole life figuring out what things mean TO YOU, you're off to a much better start than if you had gone through life without recognizing it, and only recognizing it now, when the world has gotten so messed up that you'd have to be delusional to believe the meaning they imposed on us! 😅
Incredible lineup. Never expected to see this panel. So glad these conversations are being held for the world to see.
Yeah, very diverse early lives and opinions.
Yeah really gonna change the world with all 9,000 of us absorbing this info 😅
💯
3:05 Mr Vervaeke is happy of this dialogue...but it covers sadness, that permeates my own life, the lack of interlocutors in everyday life about an abundance of topics, like this one. My father, who has been a friend and intellectual companion all my life ( I am now 53yo), where having this conversation about his age (86yo) and it came to my mind how lonely my life will be when he departs.....one of the reasons that make follow Dr Sledge, and Zvi and Dra Puca, so there, I said it. May the Divine bless you all.
I’m an assistant professor of psychology myself, and this was so refreshing to watch, it feels nice to know that the ideas I want to pursue in psych are being talked about. I often feel like a little island in my department!
You live in your head. It’s only you in there. 😏 Get out your head more x
@@crypto_hodler6948 ahh such a delight to see a fellow ripple hodler also into psych, great minds think alike! ill meet u at the moon very🌙 soon brother😜🚀
@@crypto_hodler6948 Thank you for your analysis. I'm sure its based on a deep well of knowledge of OPs unnamed psych department and field of research.😕
Dr. Sledge is an awfully Good Person. What a courageous interlocutor. We need more Sledge! Srrsly.
All three of these men are quite exceptional in my opinion. They have powerful minds, obviously, but what impresses me most is that their hearts are equally as strong.
I accidentally read Dr. Sledge's shirt as "Goy Division" before I realized what I was looking at...
Anyway, this discussion was an unknown pleasure and I will be heavily anticipating parts 2 and 3 as we get closer
My favorite part about this shirt is it almost looks like it says "goy division"
Sign me up for the Goy Division shirt lmao
@@TheEsotericaChannel Merch idea?
@@connorkokora3014will goyim be able to buy them? If so, I'm in!
He is a human if I ever saw one. That's a compliment lol
My attempt at describing "The meaning crisis" in simple terms. The meaning crisis has emerged as society has gone down the path of scientific materialism. Since the enlightenment we've uncovered an enormous amount of information about the universe, but we as individuals are no longer a part of the picture. Where narratives of the past build a worldview from the human outwards, where as this scientific classification looks at humanity, not as the reason for which we can understand it all, rather as a tiny spec in a list of information.
Humanity is a word in a dictionary.
Where I would argue that we (humans) better understand things when we understand it in relationship to ourselves. And noting that our experiences first begin with sensation as the Buddha taught, pleasant and unpleasant. We classify different types of pleasant and unpleasant sensations into physical, emotional, and thoughts (one layer of abstraction). And we build narratives about how these sensations arise as we interact with that world (another layer of abstraction).
For most of history, we took those stories of our relationship with sensations that arise as we interact with the world (I felt afraid when the tiger growled in the bushes near me), and we abstract it once further into a story where others can put themselves.
But the abstraction has gone so far for most individuals, where they no longer understand the stories that reaffirms that knowledge into their lives, information use to be relevant because it was necessary for survival or societal fit, but with so much of it, and such highly abstract classifications the information has become a jumble of disconnected noise.
Where stories and analogies create the patterns that allow us to see information within the noise (to see shapes in amongst millions of stars), and experience utilizing that information helps us relate those patterns back within us. To internalize the knowledge, and subsequently cultivate wisdom.
The meaning crisis is that information due to hyper-specialisation has become so abundant and abstract that it no longer has relevance to us, yet to solve the crisis we need to find new ways to help people navigate the patterns of information so it becomes relatable to them, and they can build their own stories based on their pathway through the stars, through the millions of nodes of information. And we can both become teachers and students again as we engage in dialogue, not debate, about the patterns we see.
I think there are many science communicators that have addressed the impersonality that comes from the highly abstract, technical layers of reality we've reached. Carl Sagan's "we are all made of star stuff". Hank Green's soapbox about how all of life we know and have never known is a continuation of a specific kind of chemistry that has continued, unbroken, for 30% of the life of the universe itself. And others bring that personal self-knowingness into harmony with a much greater and vaster whole.
I'm seeing a lot of Heidegger in this.
Instead of being Beings who exist in an imminent way with the reality we are part of (ie. understanding reality through our direct interaction with it), we create attractions and standing reserves of knowledge which makes everything in the world into nothing more than objects and tools with definitions and purposes relating to some specific need or ideology. A tree is no longer everything that a tree can be, it is only a source of wood or fruit.
In order to regain a meaningful connection to reality, we need to learn how to live with it and as a part of it, rather than viewing it as something apart from us and only as something which can serve some specific function.
I love how deep this conversation went, to the very foundations of reality. I actually thought that, while somewhat mind-bending, that was really valuable. Excited to hear about the cognitive functions of ritual!
Three sages.
This! A true symphony of searching singing sages! Haha
Awesome to see the three of you working through this together, I've followed each of you for some years now and very much appreciate your perspectives. Thanks for your work and insights, all of you.
Thanks for all your hard work and public-facing scholarship, Dr Sledge 👏⚒️
I don't know many people who would say "Kripke, of blessed memory" but every one who would is someone I like
Amen!
thanks god for youtube so us stoners can still be a part of the conversation :)
but seriously thank you guys for this talk. looking forward for the next
Big fans of John and Zvi. Thanks for hosting them and pushing them on the logic/propositional space
great themes and great discussion like an informal conference (and better for it!)
As a Christian I can relate to this crisis, since after all what other situation would have driven Jews of the last centuries BCE towards apocalyptic thinking? The same situation that religious and secular folks are falling into now, leading them to apocalyptic thinking. Yet the death of Christ provides the way out of or rather into the crisis. It shows us how a new organizing principle can be formed after we let go of our prior attachments: family, country, state
Scientific materialism isn't the cause of this, but a symptom that could pave the way towards a materialistic organizing principle. Science good. Alienation good.
Awesome combo of thinkers big shoutout to whoever made this happen
I agree: much needed talk-about.
I'm going to have to watch this again before formulating a deeper response, but thank you for giving us food for thought worthy of a deeper response.
I feel like 1)cognitive science is still so low resolution and 2) our actual level of cognitive ability is busy poking pinholes in the ceiling of our cognitive ability to understand reality.
To be fair, poking holes in our ability to process reality, did progressed Science.
@@themanwithtomanyeyes8282 It's not a criticism. It's just a reality that breaking through the current ceiling is a very slow process.
Cognitive Science will see there day John.
Love this conversation.
It feels like the time to for custom tailored mythologies for each individual. We have to realize that we as human animals NEED myths to properly function.
Myths are not lies but poetic explanation/metaphorical instruction on how to relate to this inexplainable universe.
Wonderful stuff. I have written myself on spiritual direction and John of the Cross and psychoanalysis. And this is really relevant to me.
In relation to the profoundness of sharing cognition in person as opposed to digitally, magic the gathering is much more fun to play in person than online arena. As much of an opinion this is, I feel like it has some relevance to the dynamic of being.
My three favorite youtubers in one video?!?! I just won the lottery!!!!!!
You are building your riches in the perimetrically Forever realm! You will always be the happiest of Souls!
For real...!
Absolutely Brilliant conversation! 👏🏼🥇💯 thank u! blessing and peace be with u!
Words cannot fully articulate how much I enjoyed this discussion. Truly. Thank you for this.
Thanks again for discussing my question Doc, and for this conversation in general, I can't wait for the next round!
Ok! This is powerful, needed and what a panel !!
More please. Fantastic !
Crisis of meaning ! Yes!
This is 100% going over my head but it works on an AMSR level, great background while I'm working and trying to concentrate because I don't get distracted 😄
The challenge is that charlatans and fraudsters have a more free hand to pursue their selfish ends on non propositional claims. However because there is less opportunity for them in that space in modern times they have had to fake their way as bad scientists, which is why so many people have now given up on science. Now the propositionalists can't be trusted either. That's why the remembering of what wisdom is is so vital to the moment and why I am grateful for the work that the three of you do
JV's comment about phenomenology presupposed in all other truth-seeking endeavors is very important. That is the crux of the meaning crisis - the failure to clearly perceive the overlap between phenomenology and ontology (phenomenon and noumenon) in our real-time cognitive activity. The bridge between these was most clearly laid out by Rudolf Steiner in Philosophy of Spiritual Activity (1895). There, the phenomenology of spiritual activity becomes epistemology and epistemology becomes ontology. This question can certainly be decided with intuitive certainty if we allow ourselves the opportunity to experience our own spiritual activity participating in the phenomenal flow. The mystical tradition has much to offer on this question as well, yet as Zevi alluded, mysticism should also be permeated with lucid and logical thinking.
I just had the opportunity to listen to this inspiring and often affirming discussion. That the three of you would take the time to offer these events is incredibly generous, thank you so very much. I am left with so much to think about leaving me with a feeling of being very much alive. I look forward to the next discussions. Again, thank you so very much.
Loved it.
This discussion was FANTASTIC! So insightful, original and brave. Thank you so very much. Obrigado, abraços do Brasil ;)
I appreciate this discourse with academic philosophers who are welded to the search for the miraculous, the truth, the meaning, the reality of our lives in this ponderous world.
I favor metaphysics and epistemology far above the logic/ethics/aesthetic of bottom case academic philosophy. We can all unite in the pursuit of a universal understanding of the pathways to end suffering and feel the bliss which we suspect the very small number of mystics are capable of living daily in the presence of a loving reality.
This is the kind of discussion I thought would be the norm between the departments of psychology, philosophy, and religion when I went to a little college with a reputation for both academic rigor and counterculture. As it turned out, the three departments had almost nothing to do with each other.
Shame. I like syncretizing all these things, but would throw poetry into the mix. I want more subjects brought outside of their own walls.
Reality is not divided up according to academic departments, thank goodness!
For real!
“Weeding out the stoners” sounds like something they would enjoy 🪴
Excellent discussion thank you all.
Sledge's question at 44:15 resonates a lot with me as computer scientist :)
I would've loved to hear what logicians working in constructive logic would thought of Vervaeke's comments, the notion of non-propositional knowledge reminds me of Jean-Yves Girard's Blind Spot book/lectures.
I love this.
Although at times I'm barely clinging on to what the conversation is about (which might be the part I should try and gain more understanding of), this is really great to hear. Especially when making the point that ritual without cognitive understanding will not help, as I can attest to that: having come some distance back from a place of deep meaninglessness, proposals of meditating etc. have always appeared to be incredibly superficial and almost ridiculing to the depth of my problem.
What an exciting discussion!
Thanks!
Thank you for sharing conversations like these with all of us. Sending love and appreciation from the South🫀
Reading the chat on the side as the video went on was so distracting, often such cogent and penetrating questions and insights even just in the chat competing with y'all's incredibly illuminating talk. Thank you so much for this! Excited to check out the parts on John and Zevi's channels!
I'll be back for more. So intriguing.
"I expect to pass through this world but once; any good thing therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow-creature, let me do it now; let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again" -Stephen Grellet
Wow I can't wait to listen. This sort of work will help a lot of people deal with pain.
Man always gets in their own way...they seek ALL knowledge and truth in a dualistic, chaotic world that by it's very nature will keep him from it, for ALL truth can only be found beyond this world. It is the journey toward that truth, toward God, that is possible here. The journey toward morality, truth, and all virtue is a journey toward God and not a destination to be found and sat upon.
Amazing! Thanks for all of the quality content on your channel Dr. Sledge.
This was a fascinating conversation, if a wee bit technical for a dilettante such as myself!
Very broadly speaking, my main of contention with the “communal approach,” favoured by Zevi and Justin, is that it is too close to “faith-based knowledge” as contagion more than to a “loyal deference” to the transcendent in oneself. I guess I’m too much of a Luciferian to tread comfortably that (very?) thin line between community and gregariousness, and I keep hearing the old adage that “all gregariousness is demonic,” which I interpret as referring to the betrayal (i.e., the lie) of that loyalty to one’s uniqueness as an expression of the fullness of “God.”
Anyway, it’s good to see that “beautiful minds do find each other,” and now let’s move on to part 2!!
So good. All of it. Thank you for this conversation and I’m really looking forward to the next ones.
This was fantastic; can’t wait for the next two.
Woooaahhhhh zevi and John???? Bro this is my ideal two.
Thankyou so much for this video. The discussion is right on target with my personal journey of growth and belonging.
Bullseye topic
Señor Justin Sledge you are the man!
1:14:55 This conversation reminds me of Leszek Kołakowski’s book - I believe it was in If There Is No God - bridging the gap between Cartesian science perspective and the religious or mystical perspective- the elaboration by Vervaeke on the different types of knowledge that lay outside the logical knowledge I think is compelling and somethings newer
Thank you guys!! These converstations were a delight!
This is the coolest thing I’ve ever seen in my life. I have such tremendous admiration for the work of each of you, and to see it come together is like a fever dream to me. To me you are heroes and someone should write an epic based on you.
Well, amazing discussions... not easy to follow - at least in the later years of "modern life" - but again, challanging, eye opening. I wish I had more basic knowledge to be able to challenge this on the assumption level, as you made a lot. What remained is to take it on the basic logical level. I really appreciate John and Zevi both made statements that made me think. Even though I come from the study background common with John, his language was the most difficult for me, but I put it on my reductionist nature. Thank you guys a lot. I am looking forward to the followup!
wonderful topic! Although it lagged terribly in the middle - the concept of the topic that we have to move forward and can't search backwards (and yet stand on the shoulders of giants) for humanity's next understanding is a great understanding.
I think this is beginning of the unearthing or introduction to a whole new field of study. Well, perhaps it isn’t entirely new, but the codifying of bits of several studies into one. A bridge between disciplines. Much as Anthropology emerged from Psychology and biology where a needed bridge existed. This is the start of new and to some level renewed thought.
YAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSS!!!!!!
You are describing my present.❤
This is one of THE best ever videos! This is exactly what I have been looking for.
This is most certainly a discussion worth pursuing in depth and from diverse perspectives. Thank you all for collaborating and contributing. I just finished listening to content from Rabbi Joey Rosenfeld on “simcha,” with references to Rabbi Nachman of Breslov. This tied in nicely with your piece. The search for meaning has led me down some unexpected paths, Kabbalah being one of them. I’m not Jewish, but the more I reflect, the more I believe that my interest lies primarily in the language-the way in which spiritual concepts are presented and related to the human experience. Complexity is acknowledged and explored. Simplicity is revisited and illuminated for the sake of redemption. It can be difficult to stay oriented to joy in brokenness, but I find meaning and great value in the struggle. Blessings to you ALL 🕊️
Thank you gentlemen.
John wins... Im😂 jk, not really. I truly can't convey how truly joyful this exchange amongst you 3 has been. Thank you!!!! Justtin!!!! Thank you... Reality is ugly, finding the beauty is the miracle and finding these truths matters.
That was a brilliant discussion and I am glad it will be going on for more episodes. Enjoy each of your own channels already, the benefit of your ideas entering the relational field of each others is great to be a part of through listening (and commenting).
Other forms of knowing is something I am interested in in regards to poetry, and how the language of poetry expresses a way of knowing that is probably somewhere closer to what we learn from ritual (itself interrelated to ritual in both the writing and speaking of it). I find it baffling that many of these topics seem not to include more about the nature of language in relation to poetry, though. Are any of you interested in it? Excited for more!
Can’t wait for part 2 , part 3 etc etc
Y'all Blow my Mind And I Love It!!
so pumped for this
Such a refreshing exchange. Thanks guys
'Natural Grace' by Rupert Sheldrake and Matthew Fox is a gift, similar to this kind discussion.
@nonzero host these folks. Let's spark and seed the new Universe.
NOW THIS WHAT IM TALMBOUT
im only about 45 minutes in but this conversation is insane to be listening to, i've been working on a book of philosophical, theological, and aesthetic notes for the past few years and it feels like you all have come to the exact same conclusions im coming to with respect to meaning, structure, ontology, society, ect. clearly theres something in the water of 2024s well.
im tempted to send a copy of the book when its hopefully done next year!
I actually came to Esoterica because I was looking for information for a story I was writing lol. I stayed because of the anthropological & psychological history they provide. They are windows to the past peoples, what they valued & desired. It’s fascinating to me.
Same here! Wanted some information for a magic system and now I've gone down a deep neoplatonist rabbit hole I'm not coming out of.
@@crfox it’s great right? lol
Stoner says bless you, Zevi.
It hurt me, yet changed me... Rituals are what saved me.
One should allow 'alienation' a positive dimension: detachment
Banger episode, some of my favorite people. Doc
Praying for Susanoo-no-Mikoto to protect Zevi from pollen.
Nice, thank you very much❤
FINALLY
It's 5:30 in the morning and I just took an antihistamine so I will have to catch up with you manana. Thanx Guys!!!
Interesting discussion. I did watch it live. While I didn't get all of it, I think I understood the overall idea(s). Need to read more off the Esoterica Reading List before I can understand more of it.
(I'm an engineer. Got experience what non-technical type feel when listening to a few engineers/scientist/technical types talk! 🙃)
I correctly sensed that "dialogical" would raise its head eventually. It proves I was following the discussion, if only at the level of a PowerPoint.
"Nobody is more postmodern than someone trying to be trad"
I think I understand what you're getting at here but would you mind commenting a bit on what exactly you mean? Interesting point
Excellent convo...so looking forward to this series. Also, nice Joy Division T shirt, Justin ;)
cool joy division t-shirt, I want one now
Hi,this is a really good conversation,,I think ,,how to find words to express understanding,,is it that that they can't or won't open their hearts to the connection they profess,?.forgive my calling people they.
Doctor Sledge & the Seekers of Unity would be a great band name
I hope the Justin Sledge who turned up at the 'Adorno on Occultism' series reappears in this one too. Thanks for the content, as always.
....still gotta finish that....
@@TheEsotericaChannel it would be great if you did as those were fantastic talks.
This was a fantastic conversation. Will there be more? I would’ve loved to have heard more from Zevi
Yep! Announced at the end
V much looking forward to it 😊
My layman's view regarding the validity pf non-propisitional knowing is that logic is one game that minds can play.
There are other games (i.e., non-propositonal knowing), but they exist within their own respective domains. These other games do not invalidate or contradict the game of logic and propositions.
Everything can be captured by logic, but there are more moves we can make besides "capturing things".
We can do more than manipulate propositions, even though everything we do can be described with propositions.
Something you ( Dr. Sledge) mentioned early in the discussion reminded me of the System of a Down song - ‘Science’. Themes of contemporary value systems failing to capture what humans truly care about
Bring in the mcgilchrist!
Your comments about the importance of "relation" make me think that the language (or at least the general point of view) of category theory could be useful for the study of mystical systems and concepts. It's proving to be incredibly useful for math, logic, and computer science, by providing a framework for understanding structure entirely as a construct of relationships between "objects" within a certain "context" (or category).
I'd love to see it make its way into other academic fields, like how Spivak showed in his book that it can be applied to scientific thinking and modeling.
I don't suppose anyone is currently using it to study topics in esotericism? Maybe it's not as useful as I hope. But it's a curious subject, and more people should know about and use it. It's essentially the mathematical study of "sameness".
I'd love to see it used in the study of the structure and theory of ritual. I've been thinking more about that topic in particular, lately.
Wonderful hope for this convo. Inspired within the first 10 min…
Realization: The Meaning Crisis can be partly understood as the culmination of cultivation of human consciousness (and metaconsciousness), and the risk that that is happening while we are confused about the Nature of Reality.
We are treating Phusis in the Kosmos way too much like a Sentence, and not enough like a Sound.
Fellas. What a treat! I want to meet in person with you guys and start a conversation. Maybe for a movie or book format: HUGE IF TRUE
Huge: God (duh), his death?, Deep Continuity, synoptic worldview integration
If: Science, Mysticism, Epistemic Humility, Faith
True: Ground of Reality, participation, Dialogical reason (and self), dialethism, etc, etc. etc.
@johnvervaeke @theesotericachannel @seekersofunity