How to integrate subs with full range speakers
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- Full range loudspeakers aren't as full range as most people believe and they benefit from the addition of a subwoofer. How is this done and how does one know when they are needed or not? Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com...
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I've found that even if my full-range speakers are rated down to 30 or 40 Hz, there may be a spot at which they do not handle the low frequencies as gracefully as can a good subwoofer (emphasis on "good"). Thus, I will experiment with differing crossover points even with full-range speakers. I'm just careful to not set the crossover above what the subwoofer can most gracefully handle.
Exactly. Where your full range speakers are positioned may not be the best place for addressing, say a 60hz null and you don't want to move one of your speakers behind you to address that null for obvious reasons.
Thanks for answering my question!!
After hearing your advice previously, I run a pair of double impacts with A pair of Rels connected high level. It was a huge difference.
Let me get this straight: Paul would not add another sub to his loudspeaker built-in sub?! Wow, that's so bold!
Love your show Paul. Can’t wait for the book!!
I just hope that when I go to your store you will be available.It will be a pleasure meeting you
If you're testing a sub to find out where to put it, the best thing to do is to install a signal generator app (PA Tone is a good one) on your smartphone/tablet (or you have an actual tone generator), hook the phone/tablet up to your system, open said app and set a lowish frequency using sine and then do the sub crawl after you set the sub at your listening position.
Good video and informative thank you 👍🏼✌🏼
From England 🏴
Room Corner Loaded Subwoofers Work Quite Nicely as you Basically have 3 Radiating Surfaces for the Subwoofer to Emanate from!!! Level, Crossover & Phasing of the Subwoofer should be such that the Subwoofer "disappears" and doesn't interfere with the imaging of your main speakers!!!
fookingsoc that’s what REL recommend I believe
... There's a Caveat to your suggestion. The Engineering Team from Allison Speakers (most alums from Acoustic Research); found that that Room Boundaries, such as a Corner, Do boot Bass. But, It Exaggerates the Response region somewhere between 100 and 300 hertz. Picking them, off the Floor may help. Unfortunately, Speaker placement depends Not only on the Speaker Designer's parameters, but the Individual Room in question. I believe Roy Allison's findings on Room Boundaries was published in a AES Journal, in the early '80's … Good Luck !
No mention of time alignment. I’ve never heard a properly aligned sub in a home hifi system. Been to RMAF a few times and no one’s subs are in time. A low pass filter adds delay and without delaying the main speakers back to it the lower octaves will be lethargic. The lower the frequency and steeper the slope the more delay is induced. If you wan your subs to become part of the system and not smear transients in the LF then time alignment is a must.
Mine say they go down to 40. Can’t wait to add a sub to my setup.
There is a trend in motion pictures at present, especially sci fi amd space films, you’ll hear some gargantuan ludicrously oversized behemoth of a piece of gear, hogging its way onto the screen, and so as this beast makes its movements, the animation is reinforced by this warbally, reverberating bass sort of sustained to almost a drone of a sound. One that almost is too low to be a real sound but instead a combination of very low and practically inaudible LFO effecting on an audible tone to where the artifacts are slowly peeling away the sound from your ears and transferring them to your spine. I don’t think these types of sounds had ever been implemented so often before the year 1998 or so, and so I think of it as a trend. But it does remind me of those old colored chrome cassette tapes that they used to sell for testing your bass in your car’s audio system. Those ‘bass tapes’ are really great and I miss them.
Agreed. I have always tried to set my speaker system to MY ear. Everyone’s ear is different
First things first: I LOVE your videos !!!! Second: out of ALL the many subwoofer videos you've posted......none of them that I've seen so far have laid out EXACTLY how you wire them up??? I understand that you prefer high level (speaker) connection, but you never say how to do it ?? Do you run parallel speakers from your amp's output to your mains and also to your sub?? Or do you run wires to your sub...and then out of your sub's output to your mains?? Or do you run wires from you A speaker output to your mains, and run your B speaker outputs to your sub??? HELP !!!!!!!!!
TDL produce or produced speaker that went down to 15Hz in room..They were transmission line and hell they were incredible especially at imaging :-)
If you haven't dealt with the room modes you will never get the sub/mains to integrate right, or the bass to be right in general. Phase alignment/harmony/integration is also key. If you set the sub volume as Paul says, so you don't hear the sub but it is there fortifying the rest of the sound, then it can be placed anywhere in the room that happens to be that loudest bass spot Paul talks about finding by putting the sub in you listening chair.
bvocal Great advice buddy!
My 6Pi corner horns measure 4dB down at 18 Hz...
Paul didn’t address the situation of using a sub to pair with satellite speakers, which is at least as important as using them with large speakers that go down to the bottom octave. I don’t agree with him to leave the mains alone, especially with smaller speakers that only go down to maybe 50Hz or so. Besides adding low end, subs are really important for lowering distortion from the main speakers. I very much recommend the use of an active crossover set no higher than 100Hz to keep the lows out of the mains which are already doing a lot of work. The crossover ought to be pretty high order to really rolloff those lows to the mains, 24dB/octave crossovers are pretty standard.
I'm going to raise a VERY good question now.... IF you are gonna add a sub to your two full range speakers, should it be imperative that they are NOT ported types ? The reason I've raised this is because in ported enclosures there is a massive acoustic phase shift right on that LF tuning point . Whereas in sealed enclosures this severe phase shift ( swing ) is very minimal . So with minimal phase swing it is much easier ( and very much better audibly ) to adjust the phase control on the sub .
Agree, a sealed sub for music preferably down firing and ported for movies
Janina Palmer Sealed Box FTW
Agree. Ported bass for music is just a splatter fest.
If you need really low hz, try a "butt kicker" servo. mount that to your chair and feel the earth move.
@@SJMessinwithBoats1 if you play Carole King I Feel The Earth Move does that help?
I think it's possible to get a passive speaker to go down to 20 hz, but it would have to equalised (with the crossover) in such a way to make the speaker ridiculously inefficient. And you would have to cut everything else down to match the feeble 20 hz output. But it still would be more efficient than an electrostatic speaker. lol Powering the deep bass sounds separately solves the problem, without making the passive speakers ridiculously inefficient.
Rythmik Audio are true servo subs. They blow most of the more expensive stuff out of the water if you're an audiophile.
Mattias G I’m sure Rythmik subs are great. I initially wanted to purchase from them but found them to not be quite as responsive and helpful as I would like. Nothing terrible mind you. I ended up with an Hsu ULS-15 Mk 2 as I found them to provide exemplary service. I’m impressed with the product and the pricing.
To even achieve 20htz in a room, doesn't it have to be quite large for the sound wave to even hit in the room?
Back in the 1990's Paradigm made the Servo 15 that made the claim to hit 10htz. Having heard it and other sub's like Rel's, Velodine 1812, and JL Audio Gotham's; I would believe it.
Can't wait till PS Audio releases their new speakers, the expectations are growing.
@ So would you require a room with a volume of 32 meters squared to experience it adequately, or do you just go for the air pressure experience since humans can't even hear below say 40 htz?
not really hi fi but my new pa rig is turbosound and my 18 subs and every size of mains are factory set so you can tell the sub that there is a matched 15, 12, 10, or 8 on top and the full range can be crossed over to either the matching 15, or 18 sub.... no guessing!! the i,age out front sounds great and unlike a lot of shitty dj's and live sound guys; i don't have to "guess" with my subs...
Interesting tip I'll give that a go
Thanks so much for this info. !!!
As we leave the idea that the IRS is the best.
We focus on a smaller speaker with 1 subwoofer ,1 midbass driver, and several ribbon mids and tweeters.
How can this reach high spl with low IM?
But what about positioning of the sub should it be pointed straight forward pointing down to the floor pointing up to the ceiling or even pointing to the back wall
i think i used a pink noise generator and played it through my main speakers and turned the volume up until i reached 85db, then i turned on my sub and adjusted it until my spl meter went to 86db, then dropped it down a bit till it was back at 85db and voila, sub and main speakers match
I bet you needed some help hoisting those IRS subs into your listening seat. LOL
I tend to disagree that speakers should always be allowed to operate full range when connected to a subwoofer. Often your stereo speakers are most stressed in the bass causing an increase of harmonic distortion due to wind noise, cone breakups and lack of linearity at near max cone excursion. When playing loud with your smaller stereo speakers outputting bass under 100Hz will often yield a poor bass performance compared to what the subwoofer can do. The ideal cross-over filtering depends on the exact speaker and subwoofer combination and in some cases the bass performance is good enough from your stereo speaker to let it through unfiltered.
ThinkingBetter this is where bi amping would seem to come in for ideal performance. Personally I am messing with a pair of KEF LS50 and soon to be two REL T5 subs. I have 125 watt monoblocks for the mains and of course the REL are powered. Seems the ideal crossover point is around 80 Hz. The KEFs have a good enough bass to make me want to leave them full range. The system already sounded good with one T5 but I just don't like the idea of one sub. Bass is way more channel oriented and important than most seem to think. The placement of the subs is my main concern which was completely ignored in this vid. Two subs makes sense one sub doesn't. Well I suppose in a small room it can just kind of depends.
Agreed.
@@hardcorecap got the second REL T5i in and wow what a difference. Put them on the floor about 3" off the wall behind the mains. Sounds great. The hum is gone from the one amp. One sub sux!
@@JohnDoe-np3zk I have watched many videos on this topic, 90% recommend crossing over between 80-100 Hz. It's a bit frustrating. I have a pair of Tekton Lore's. I guess I'll have to experiment with both approaches.
I've heard of that method before. My only concern would be the inconvenience of having the sub sitting in front of the front door or stairway.
In my experience there are several nodes in the same room, pick the one that suits you best position wise
Everyone one of these videos are awesome!
From my experience you can’t set up a sub optimally with ears only. Doing the adjustment with measurement equipment is far superior and your ears will agree. Ears are so insensitive at bass frequencies that you may be shocked how off your settings done by ear can be.
I’m a fan of Rythmik Audio. I actually prefer them over the accelometer based servo subs.
Focal’s Grande Utopias have a -3 at 18hz and -6 at 14.
Well, so their info states if measured 1 meter away from the speaker. That doesn't mean you get that at your seat.
Most definitely my Stellas measure to about 19.5 hz -6 in my seating position. I’m sure the Grandes would do much better and more effortlessly with its 16in driver.
This is in a treated mixing and mastering room of decent size and a good LxWxH ratio.
Paul, do you recommend a pair of Subs or will one sub typically suffice?
How the hell did you then set up the subs of the IRS5? Moving them around in the room seems pretty cumbersome.
I have a pair of these great subs. Acoustic Fields recommends elevating subs a foot above floor. I did this. Bass is an out exceptionally tight and very musical. Bass is tight and very musical mail
I've now got visions of Paul balancing those subs on his listening seat LOL
You can use any old sub for this. Speaker placement is mostly about room dynamics, and just a little about the speaker itself.
i'm having some trouble tuning my sub to the mains. i'll try the listening position technique but svs ultra 16 weights 125 lbs , need some help i think, thanks Paul
doyle wayne seen my post pillow. I have a little vision in screwed up. It will help.
Yeah, that SVS is quite heavy, definitely need someone to help you to lift it up to your listening position.
I'd try to find a smallish table that can withstand that weight and place it in the area you'll be listening at and crawl around. Or you could just build one for temporary use just to do this, or use two A frames to do the job.
But being that most people have a smartphone and or tablet, download an app called PA tone, it's a test tone signal generator.
With the phone hooked up to the system you can set a frequency and roll the frequency up and down to see where your mains roll off and set the sub slightly higher where the mains roll off so that there's no sudden change between your mains and the sub.
Very carefully! I have a pair of mains that go down to 45 Hz. From their up is where the magic happens! But for lower bass I use a sub built by the same shop as my mains. Now these guys weren't your average schlubs. But they weren't as Uber high end as Paul's stuff. My sub goes from 120 Hz down to 23 Hz @-3 db. But the slope is very flat. In fact at 20 Hz it may be only at -4 or -5 db. -5 would be a stretch. To be honest, 23 Hz and below is nothing but flutter. It's not musical. If the music was recorded with that low end flutter in it, then you want to reproduce that. But if not, 23 Hz to 20 Hz isn't anything to worry about. So I cross my sub at 50 Hz, and use the volume control to bring in just so it blends in to the 45 -3 db point of my mains, which are ported. My sub is a sealed box with a Q of .81. That creates a rise in volume just before it starts to roll off. So when I blend it in with the mains it's provides a very natural sounding bass. As for ported subs, well, after hearing what mine does I wouldn't use one unless the -3db point was at 20 Hz or below. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth it to me. With a sealed cabinet like mine 20 Hz is still very audible! Now I know the guys who built my speakers very well. I've known them for well over 30 yrs. And I know that when they built my mains, a Coda Amplifier rep came into their store looking for someone to sell their amps. So my buddies hooked up their best amp to the speakers I bought as my mains, ( out of absolute dumb luck I happened to have stopped by that day on a mission to find replacements for the speakers I had built my self with drivers I bought from these guys). The sales rep sat in the main listening room, where my speakers on display, and after a few minutes he got up and walked out of the room. As for myself, there was no way I was giving up my prime seat, and continued on with the audition for a replacement speaker. After a few minutes on a phone call, the came in and offered my friends a spot in the booth where they were selling their amps at CES that year. Coda offered them half of their space at the booth for CES as long as they allowed Coda to use their speakers to demo their amps. That wasn't the thing that sold me on their speakers. Neither was twenty yrs of friendship at the time. It was all about the quality of sound they managed to get! And they did just that. So I was the first buyer of the Celestial Audio Sirius Speakers along with the matching Phobos Subwoofer in, well, the world. Only 3 pairs of those speakers were produced solely because Focal redesigned the drivers before any more could be built, but several were under the Sirius 2 designation. I haven't had the chance to compare the two versions but I'm sure I would still be happy with the results. At the time when these were being developed I also listened to the top of the line Kef's, B&W's, Martinlogan, and Carvin along with Magna Planars and anything else I could find in the Phoenix area. None sounded as good as the Sirius speakers I bought. And that took many auditioning sessions to come to that conclusion. And when I pared them up with the Phobos sub, the only thing I would have done different would be to find a center channel speaker as good as the Sirius, and buy another pair of Sirius speakers along with a second aphobos for the rear of the room to set up the worlds best surround sound system!
I've been building bass speakers for many years, and I have never seen a driver that will operate flat down to 20 Hz regardless of the alignment, that is, without additional equalization. The speakers I build will go down into the upper 20's, and I would argue that is about as good as anyone could ever imagine having, and I suggest that most of us cannot hear the difference btw two speakers of the same design, one with an f3 of 28 Hz, and the other with an f3 of 20 Hz. So if we can get down to the upper or mid 20's, that's all one needs.
One thought for not rolling the mains is the speaker is designed to used as intended without a sub. That means its design was compromised to have the lowest possible response. The mid bass suffers a little when trying to go for the lows. As Paul is trying to create a speaker with the sub included, this is the true way of doing a sub. To be designed from the beginning. To me, adding a sub to a speaker that was not designed from the beginning is something less than best. Like putting big wheels and tires on a truck. Throws off gear ratio, wind resistance, center of gravity, etc. It works but, In the end, a subwoofer that compliments the mains will be the final destination. Not an add on.
I think those who come from well set-up home cinema set-ups have a better natural understanding of the proper role of a subwoofer.
A subwoofer should never (rarely) ever be 'heard' - however what it does do, when set up properly - is add *atmosphere & presence*. You can't put your finger on it - but turn the sub off - & 'something is missing' - even to the untrained ear.
If your sub is indeed being heard - you have set its crossover too high. This in turn can be 'forced' on one, when the main speakers don't actually go low enough - people then try to fill that gap with the sub, thus creating all the wrong settings on the sub. The solution here instead, is main speakers which meaningfully go low enough to where the sub can correctly take over, say 100Hz & lower.
When watching movies, there's times you will hear the base coming from the subs no matter how well you have them blended with your speakers.
In case anyone doubts a pair of 6.5's can play bass notes, I can attest they exist and sound good to a basshead.
"good"
@@mark22732 "yeah"
I'm getting a null at around 50Hz, no matter where I place it in my (small) room. Adjusting the (continuous) phase setting doesn't fix it. I'm getting the same null even with just my mains (without the sub). Does this make any sense? Any suggestion is appreciated.
It can and some rooms are just going to be a problem. But, find a 50Hz tone, set the subwoofer at the listening position, then walk the room till you find where it works. Then set the sub there.
Download PA tone on your smartphone/tablet (unless you have another way to generate the 50hz tone) and play it through your system, set the tone to 50hz sine and walk and crawl around the room.
just bought firs subs .and they really work-doubt audiofilic sikness.no subs.nonsense
What if I have 2 subs? How can I integrate them easily into my room?
REW and a UMIK-1
letting the fullranges go down that low isn't a good idea. there's going to be a lot of excursion leading to higher intermodulation distortion and lower dynamic headroom. all you need for the sub to blend is to cross them over regardless of the frequency as long as it's not higher than 100 Hz. and the most important thing is the crossover has to be a single unit for the whole system. with multiple crossover networks, there's a good chance it's going to be a mess. lowpassing the sub could work if its filter happens to match the existing crossover's characteristics but there's a good chance it doesn't, it's kinda like tossing a coin here. because if it doesn't, there's going to be a phase shift problem.
I agree with you on Rollin mains. why beat the heck out of the "full range speakers"? plus, save on mains amplifier. I like my amps to not work hard=long play less stress..
You are correct sir, I do NOT agree with the narrator on this one, I NEVER let full ranges go full range.
Let me add this is especially true if you're trying to reach high SPL
This was discussed earlier this year in the spring. If I get it right, Paul says to tie the subwoofer to the same signal the mains are on to get the mains' amp's character. Instead of subs having low level imput from preamp.(did I get it right Paul?)
100hz is way too high if you only have one sub. If you have two subs placed symmetrically about the sweet spot, 100hz is fine, sure, but with one sub you really need to cross your sub over at or below 60hz IMO.
Hi Paul. People are always mentioning how after a certain age the human ear can't hear above a certain frequency anymore. I've heard that 18k is quite high to be able to hear, and I've heard that 14-15k is average for a middle aged man like myself.
But the thing is, it's only about FOUR semitones from 18khz down to 14 or 15. Just a couple notes' difference!
So how much difference does it really make? I don't think my hearing is much, if AT ALL, worse than it was when I was in training decades ago, what do you think?
The first frequency you lose is the frequency of your wife's voice.
So it might be best to marry a lady with a shrill shrewish voice, rather than a deeper sexy rasp..
You should take a look at the 55 year old KEF B139, you don't have to imagine anything
I would love to know your opinion on loudspeakers made out of concrete, anyone here on the comments as well please.
Concrete makes excellent cabinet material due to its resistance to resonance. This doesn't equate to a better speaker, though, because the cabinet is just one aspect of the design.
Diego Lopez I have no direct experience with concrete but have heard over the years it works quite well. My large stand mounted 2-ways are plywood lined with lead shot and epoxy on all interior surfaces. They are some of the most damped speakers I’ve ever experienced.
The positioning technique you describe is what I call 'Node reversal' (probably wrong, but hey) that's how I set up my REL Q50 and it sounds great, really integrates seamlessly with the mains, I use the high level inputs (speakon) for music and LFE (phono) for films, it's one of those crappy twin voice coil units but does me just fine, took about 2 days until I was happy with the positioning and levels but we'll worth spending the time,
My cat used to love sleeping on top of it (even through my Orbital/Crystal method/Underworld phase in the 90's/early 2000's) which was highly amusing until she recently decided to use the cone as a scratching post, totally fragged it :-( can anyone give advice on re-coning a Q50? I can't afford a better sub and I'm rather attached to it
At 6:07 the clock goes to 13:37 :)
Good speakers is all you need , all in phase .
Full-range Bass no sub- ua-cam.com/video/hIwZjJanXag/v-deo.html
Walk around or crawl around? That is called the subwoofer crawl.
endrizo it helps if you can do deep woofs like a big dog while on all fours.
Yup
Please, how can I apply this to car audio or is it even possible to since I can't put my subwoofer box where my listening position is. please and thank you.
You're asking how to apply audiophile techniques to car stereo? what is the vehicle? I'm really happy with a grand caravan with stow and go seats. With all the seats in the floor, the box really makes a nice show. I am currently working on this integrating the sub with the mains. 2 15in pa drivers and a 15in dvc bass head type subwoofer. Care to hear the details of my out of box thinking?
@@SJMessinwithBoats1 Thank you for the reply. Ever since I've found you channel I've been binge watching all of your content. Absolutely awesome stuff. I'm trying to apply anything I've learned from you that I can to car audio. In answer to your question I drive a 2013 Nissan Maxima. Also can you recommend anyone who can build me a really nice cabinet/subwoofer box by any chance?
m peezy, I have been into car stereo since high school in the late 70's. Worked as new car dealer mechanic on different brands till early 90's.
The maxima line is one of my favorite layouts.
Automobiles end up being a not so desirable place for audio.
Every time I think of having a stereo that makes me happy longer then a couple days, it falls apart. One of the best configurations I came up with was 4 8in woofers with really low free air resonance. 2 dome midrange and 2 dome tweeters. 3 50wpc stereo class ab amps, and 3 two way electronic crossovers.
This system was good for the way music was recorded in the 70's and 80's.
Now with our convenience music, its much harder to get the tone right.
Thing I focus on is drums and bass now.
If I owned a sedan I would try for just making a box that sat on the back seat, that you can take in and out so you can use the car as intended when needed.
My current reccomendations for that is where I differ so much from popular trends.
I'm getting ready to build my box for my design. I will be doing some videos with explanations. Spent most of this year testing these two pa type drivers to find " the balance". Now its box time!!
Thanks for repeating the question for half the time as usual and then some oh. So it seems there is no difference in integrating with full range speakers. It is like just adding a subwoofer.
I guess this will not work at all. You will have cancellations between the speakers and the sub.
Perhaps a crossover has to be introduced here.
In the video he mentions setting a low pass filter. Almost every sub In the world will have one. This is a crossover used to blend the sub with the main speakers. As the speakers roll off you put the subs crossover point to roll off the top end of the sub at that point so there is a flat response all the way down that fills in what the speakers are missing.
First comment
" most speakers dont play down to 18hz , thats why i am a big fan of subwoofers" My subs do just that BROTHER! You need to sit in my truck bud for the "BOSTON ACCOUSTIC"BASS DROP .I hit a 157db at 30hz before, but 156.6 at 30 is more constant for me . i did do a musical 1 minute run on the meter last Saturday at Demo Wars car show and had a score of 149.9 dbs on a 1 minute rolling average .
I can't imagine 30 Hz at 157 dB. Would not that shake an entire neighborhood?
You just agreed with Paul.
He say you need subs to go low.
And you say "My subs do just that"
So you are saying the same thing.. Subs to play low notes low....
@@mataba8026 agreed
@@mataba8026 i need to get your ass in My truck for a demo too😂😂😂😂
I do not go into bass heads trucks before i see proof of beating EXOcontralto little blue