Engines Of North America: The Lima Allegheny
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- My first video discussing both a steam locomotives and an articulated engine as well. All information and pictures used have their sources linked directly below.
Background music: Blue Mountains by Gabriel Witcher
Works Cited
“Allegheny Controversy.” en.wikipedia.org, Wikipedia, en.wikipedia.o.... Accessed 6 November 2021.
“The Allegheny Locomotive.” www.thehenryford.org, The Henry Ford Museum, www.thehenryfo.... Accessed 2 November 2021.
“Allegheny whistle?” cs.trains.com, CS Trains, 27 December 2006, cs.trains.com/m.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
“Baltimore & Ohio 2-6-6-4 (Class KB-1).” www.american-rails.com, American Rails, 1946, www.american-r.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
“Chesapeake & Ohio Railway: "George Washington's Railroad."” www.american-rails.com, American Rails, www.american-r.... Accessed 6 November 2021.
“C&O Allegheny #1624.” www.american-rails.com, American Rails, 6 June 1956, www.american-r.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
Hastings, Philip R. “C&O Allegheny 1624.” www.trains.com, Trains, September 1955, www.trains.com.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
Johnson, George C. “C&O #1604.” www.rrpicturearchives.net, RR Picture Archives, 10 August 2007, www.rrpicturear.... Accessed 2 November 2021.
Kindig, Richard. “4-6-6-4 "Challenger" Locomotives.” www.american-rails.com, American Rails, 3 March 1956, www.american-r.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
“Lima Locomotive Works.” www.american-rails.com, American Rails, www.american-r.... Accessed 6 November 2021.
Madrid, Kevin. “Chesapeake and Ohio 1601.” locomotive.fandom.com, Fandom, locomotive.fan.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
“Sam.” ttte.fandom.com, Fandom, ttte.fandom.co.... Accessed 6 November 2021.
“2-6-6-6 "Allegheny" Locomotives.” www.american-rails.com, American Rails, www.american-r.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
“2-6-6-6 "Allegheny" Locomotives in the USA.” www.steamlocomotive.com, Steam Locomotive, www.steamlocom.... Accessed 2 November 2021.
“Virginian 2-6-6-6 "Allegheny" Locomotives in the USA.” www.thehenryford.org, The Henry Ford Museum, www.thehenryfo.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
“Virginian No. 906.” locomotive.fandom.com, Fandom, locomotive.fan.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
“Virginian Railway: Appalachian Coal Hauler.” www.american-rails.com, American Rails, www.american-r.... Accessed 6 November 2021.
Voltava, George E. “Virginian 2-6-6-6 Class AG #906.” www.rlhs.org, Railway & Locomotive Historical Society, 14 September 1949, www.rlhs.org/C.... Accessed 4 November 2021.
Although the Big Boys are stated as the largest locomotives built, they were only bigger than the Allegheny in length and firebox area. In all other respects the Allegheny was bigger, including weight. The C&O really didn't know how good of a locomotive they had until towards the end of steam when they were used in the Northern District in Ohio north of Russell, KY. There they finally got to stretch their legs and run. The biggest problem with bringing one back to service are their weight. Only railroads with massive load bearing track structures can support them. Great video.
Hasn’t their been this long standing friendly feud between rail fans of the Big Boy and Allegheny
Big Boy was faster. And since UP transported troups to the west coast during WW2 using the Big Boy it was easier for their marketing to claim it was the "biggest" engine in the world.
And both engines are equally cool
Not so! The weight some list for Allegheny is not accurate. Read Trains mag article about Skullduggery at the Scale House. Allegheny is not a bad locomotive but gets whipped in a pulling contest with BigBoy. The TE difference is large and the Hp figures are closer than most are aware. BigBoy was measured at 7,200 Hp at the Cylinders, just fyi..
Nice Locomotives but seemed to not live up to expectations!! Some say they were Slippery. Beautiful Engine though.
My grandpa ran these engines back in the day. 1601 in the Henry Ford Museum is one of the ones he ran. I saw it on its way to the museum when I was a kid. I snapped a picture with my Polaroid as it passed by my house.
There is one of these at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn MI. What an amazing machine!
C & O's H-8 Alleghenys were numbered 1600 - 1659, and were last in service till 1956 (From the book C & O Power) The Alleghenys were basically a Class T-1 slide ruled out to a 2-6-6-6.
I love going to the Henry Ford Museum and staring at the Allegheny train there. Amazing piece of Americana.
Nice video! Very informative and great photos. A big Thank You to the C&O for at least preserving 2 of these great engines. It's a shame B&O couldn't have done the same with their beautiful EM1's or Northern Pacific with their massive Z5's.
Thanks for the comment and I never heard of the NP Z5’s. I may cover those one day.
The B&O actually tried to preserve two EM-1s as well, but neither came through sadly. 650 (7600) was to go to the B&O Railroad Musuem, but a miscommunication led to it being scrapped. Another story goes where the B&O wanted to give 659 (7609) to Wheeling, WV for display, but the city said no and it got cut up.
One Big Boy is running out west..with enough money and help an Allegheny could be restored...maybe they could meet some day on the rails? What a sight to behold....
Back about 5 years before our recent celebration of the Transcontinental Anniversary, we already knew UP 4014 was getting restored. UP being one of the two railroads completing the Transcon.. Not long after, folks started sniffing around the B&O museum. Later we found out C&O 1309 was being ressurected. Before it was decided on 1309, I had hoped it would be the H8 stored there. This way, and in great hope of, we would have two of the biggest locos in the world recreate the Transcontinental photo. IMO i think that would have been something!
Not to detract from 1309's coming back to life, the idea didnt seem to be what was planned. Oh well, only 47 years to go, to try again. Your right, all it takes is money! About an Allegheny's weight in gold should do it. (that's just a shady pinch over 1 millions pounds in case you didn't know).
That single locomotive weighs as much as three modern sd70ace diesels, minus a few mere tons. That's impressive!
I saw this in person for the first time at the Henry Ford Museum in Michigan where one is preserved and you can climb aboard, and although I’ve seen it multiple times, it’s still hard for me to process just how massive this thing was. You can’t even get the whole thing in your field of vision there it’s just too big and looms over you
I love climbing inside it. Such a great feeling
Thank you for the video on the Allegheny (2-6-6-6) as it is my favorite locomotive and as you said, railfans of the Allegheny can dream of a restoration or possibly a brand new Allegheny if one of the remaining steam Loco builders would build it and if there was money to build it.
Thank you for the video. The Allegheny (2-6-6-6) is my favorite steam
I had the opportunity to see the one at the Ford Museum a number of years ago - incredible piece of machinery
A long time ago the H8 at the B&O museum was displayed outside. You could really get a good look at her. Now it's much harder to see the scale of the engine. The one in Dearborn is in really great shape - always stored indoors after it was retired.
Seen 3 big boys in the last two years, and plan to see 1-2 more in the next two years. I really wanna make the trip to the St. Louis railroad museum to see there amazing roster of large preserved steam. Both challengers are on my list, as well as the gs4 daylight. Never felt much for 611 but it’s gotta be seen. My goal is to see all the most well known and historical United States steam locos.
I've seen 1601 at the Ford museum and it truly is glorious.
I think where there is some confusion is that its easy to forget that the Alleghany has twelve driving wheels and is still equal to the Big Boy.
Proportionally the H8 is a much larger design .
Im a huge fan of the Big Boy but imagine an Alleghany extended to sixteen drivers like the Big Boy.
The Big Boy is an extended Challenger.
While that is a magnificent engine we can see the Alleghany is much larger than the Challengers.
I seen 1604 at the B&O museum for the 1st time this past weekend. I can tell you what she is hudge!!!! It would definitely be great to see here steam again 😀
It would be awesome for an Allegheny to be restored, but if the restoration of the 1309, a smaller yet similar design, is any indication it will be very difficult and costly.
That would be Great, Then we could settle some long term disagreements about which was actually heavier!
@@floydrandol2731 The bigboy was indeed heavier.
Fantastic video. Thumbs up. An idea for a locomotive to make a video of is the N&W J.
Oooh that’s a good one. I’ll keep it in mind
@@ironhorsehistorian9871 sweet!
Shame that there isn’t more footage of these beasts running. I have only seen the video shown at the HF museum. The whistle can give chills.
There are several more videos on the Alleghenies on You Tube.
By the way, please don’t nickname those engines like that to be honest.
The "Allegheny" class type were an impressive articulated design and among the most powerful ranking of steam locomotives, C&O saved two examples of the h8 class (1601 & 1604). It is unfortunate however that the Virginian rr didn't save a single example of their "Blue Ridge" class locomotives for preservation to be on public display, and there were only 8 of those engines ever constructed.
If the N&W got the Virginian a few years earlier(lets say 1952), do you think the blue ridges would have had longer service lives?
In 1952 , they would have been only 7 years old. Thats adolescent age for a steam locomotive. Its a safe bet they would have lasted to the end, with the rest of N&W's steam.
I believe the Alleghenies were numbered 1601 through 1659. That said, I really appreciate your research, these types of presentations are always very interesting.
Close, 1600-1659
Nice video, but the tractive effort was 110,200 pounds not 10,000 tons. The tractive effort is usually around 25 percent of the weight on the drive axles with steam engines. This in known as the adhesion factor. Locomotives with AC traction motors and computers to manage wheel slip can have adhesion factors of 0.45 or 45 percent of the weight on the drive axles. A six axle AC motor locomotive can achieve 200,000 pounds starting tractive effort.
Oh shoot
Starting 200,000 ,166,000 continuous
So a tractive effort of 2000000 lbs means it can pull a train of 200000lbs on no incline?
No, with 200,000 pounds of tractive effort you would be able to lift a 200,000 pound railroad car up a vertical incline going strait upward. Fortunately, most gradients are about 1.5 foot rise per 100 feet travel so this locomotive with 200,000 pounds tractive effort could move a 20,000,000 pound train. (10,000 short tons)
It’s a shame that only two Alleghenies are preserved. from Germany
My grandpa fired a blue ridge...once. The engineer didn't like him and "encouraged" him to overfill the firebox. He had to drop his fire on the track on the way into the roundhouse and was fired himself when the locomotive stopped.
Then he moved to Detroit.
Oh my 😳
They have one at the Henry ford museum!
I've Got A Book About The C&O 2-6-6-6 H8 Allegheny A Retrospective OF The Locomotive I Love The Rare Classic Black And White Pictures OF Them IN Action ON The C&O Untill Late 1956
Even though the Virginian "Blue Ridge" engines have been lost to history, they will be remembered by Thomas and Friends.
Holy crap that is a beast
S i R t H i S i S a C h R i S t A i N m I n E c R a F t S e R v E e R (lol)
Didn't the Missabe iron ore run these also up on northern Minnesota?
If your talking about the monsters they ran up north, that would be the Yellowstones. Another absolute giant that will easily compare to Big Boy, Allegheny, EM-1, and Class A. 2-6-6-6 types only ran on 2 Railroads.... C&O and VGN. Both central-eastern roads.
They did use articulated engines just not Alleghenies
There are 3 DM&IR Yellowstone survivors: all within 35 miles of each other. One is safely inside a RR museum, another is under a semi-protective canopy and the last one is outside, unprotected and exposed to the elements including those long, brutal winters. BTW: I don't know what's more entertaining: the video documentary or the never-ending argument between BB and Allegheny fans in the comment section.
@Caje-zf8md both depending on your point of view lol. Also both are cool.
IIRC the biggest problem is CSX refuses to allow steam on their network, so there's no legacy rail opportunities.
I did not know that
I guess CSX has conceded that U.P. is more dedicated to hard work and preservation...
Awesome video
Thank you :)
the one in the ford museum can't fit through the doors so its probably not going anywhere. they had to cut a hole in the building to get it in
Howdy! I'm Sam!
I can see 1601 being in much better shape than 1604 since it’s been indoors for over 65 years. It’ll make an easy restoration if that ever happens
hell yeah!!!!
They did not weigh 600 tons. More like 780,000 pounds or 390 tons. They were much heavier than anticipated which limited their territory.
Hmm 🤔 perhaps I missed something. I’ll be sure to be more diligent, thanks for the constructive criticism.
@@ironhorsehistorian9871 original published weight well below actual, hence the union lawsuit
Tested to over 7500 hp
Those 160 car trains (~15,000 tons) ran on from the Ohio river to Toledo. Could have pulled longer, but sidings limited train length in Ohio. These supplemented the C&O's 2-10-4s on this run... Didn't use the extra power but we're probably much easier on the track
Thomas Dixon put out a book on the Allegheny, but I would recommend picking up his book ( or was it Huddleston) on Lima Superpower first, as he does do a write up on it their as well, as well as Berkshires, 2-10-4 and several others
Thanks for the recommendation. I’ll try and keep tabs on it.
Actually, with tender they were close. 1.18 million pounds. If the turntables had been longer, the locos would have weighed more than the UP 4000's as they were only 5 tons lighter even with the short tenders.
@@phreshone1 so steam hp skys the limit , didnt work diesels so good
it's sam!(from thomas)
Ten thousand tons tractive effort !
I don't think so ? That would make these behemoths the most powerful locomotives ever built
Just for anyone who thinks one of these won’t run again: They said that about the big boys and look what happened.
It would happen if CSX made up their minds and formed a steam program just like Union Pacific
@@willthetrill4849 I honestly don't trust CSX with them
I believe the tractive effort rating was 110,000 pounds, not 10,000 tons. Big difference.
The Alleghenies took their inspiration from N&W 2-6-6-4's
No they didn't. They took their inspiration from the 2-8-4 Berkshires Lima produced. Lima considered them Berkshires on steroids. The N&W Class A actually had a relatively small boiler for an articulated design with at maximum of 5,400 DBHP at around 40 mph.
Um, no. They didn't.
And the N&W 2-6-6-4's took their inspiration from the R1 and R2 Seaboard Airline 2-6-6-4's.
one of the alleghenies is now pulling for the western maryland tourist line...1609 i think.
Actually that is not an Allegheny, but it is a mallet type of steam locomotive.
Only two survived one at Henry Ford and the other in the Baltimore RR museum. Neither have run in 65 years.
It is a 2-6-6-2 engine that was used in slow speed mine runs. Much smaller and far less powerful than the huge Allegheny.
They even came close to beating the Big Boys as the world’s largest steam locomotive.
Omg it's you.
Lol
One of the photos of a C&O unit in the Wikipedia article about these shows enlarged wheels on the last axle of the trailing group of 6 wheels, suggesting the presence of a booster engine, but the article itself doesn't say anything about this. It would be kind of odd to have a booster engine on just 1 of 3 trailing axles on a locomotive having 6 normally powered axles. Anybody know anything about this?
I’d take Wikipedia with a grain of salt when it comes to information. Anyone with a Wikipedia account can change it, usually I try not to use Wikipedia as my first choice, but if I have no other choice I’ll use it.
@@ironhorsehistorian9871 I know, but trying to alter the photo that way would be a big undertaking. Interestingly, when I did some more looking around, I found some different photos (but ignoring the all-too-common photos that don't show the trailing axles at all, or too indistinctly to show wheel size) of C&O Alleghenies, and some of the locomotives have the enlarged rear wheels and some of them don't. Separately but related, some of the modeled engines have this and some of them don't. Weird.
It didn't have a booster
The C&O and VGN 2-6-6-6 locomotives did not get trailing truck booster units, quite simply because, it was felt that with their huge existing tractive efforts - they didn't need a booster.
@@TheWizardofOblivion . . . which still leaves unanswered why some of them have enlarged wheels on the last axle. Maybe the builders thought they were going to add a booster, and then their bosses decided against it?
An em1 almost made it to preservation but due to miscommunication it was sent to scrapping by mistake.
Cool lil nugget of info. Say who built the EM1?
@@ironhorsehistorian9871 They were built by Baldwin.
Cool thx
Somehow i think it was ALL a miscommunication to send them to the scrappers.
2-6-6-6 > Big boy!
“EaRNed ItS NamE fRoM ThE MouTaiN RAnGE TheY WoRkED In”
False. They were named for the Town of Alleghany, with it’s control points and turntable. However someone is Cincinnati decided that it was spelled wrong, giving them the E in the name.
They were named for Alleghany because they could NOT exceed the length of the turn table at MA cabin. The turning point for east bound pushers.
Actually, this is true, much like the Berkshire's are named for the mountain range they conquered when they were the new design of the day. However, only the "A" was capitalized.
It is 1600-1659 you said 1600-1645
They were really impressive however were not really efficient for their tasks. The simple articulated performed best when used on heavy fast freights, but those were used in coal drags. They did that, but a N&W Y6b would have done it while working in her optimal efficient speed range with less fuel and water. The power per weight ratio for the N&W class A was higher, and with 70 drivers and 300 psi boilers could really roll a train. 67 drivers and only 265 psi boiler pressure on the Allegheny seem to be a bit discouraged construction features, only the weight itself was outstanding.
260 psi on the Alleghenies, but still, yeah.
The Allegheny wasn't really designed for the same drag as a Y6b. It was meant as much to supplement the T-1s running coal from the Russell, KY (Ohio river) to Toledo... They could run those trains faster with less wear and tear than the 10 driver Texans... The C&O had 2-6-6-2s to move coal from the mines to the marshalling yards, and 2-8-8-2 H7s to work the hardest mountain grades. Even the graded from Hinton WV to Clifton Forge VA on Norfolk bound coal was only .577% uphill, so the extreme TE of a Y6b wasn't required there either...
The Allegheny was actually never pushed to it's full capacity on the C&O, except maybe pulling troop trains of length no other single engine could get close to...
Probably would have been better served on The Erie, or pulling hyper long trains from Chicago to Cheyenne
@@09JDCTrainMan @chaparral82 PSI really doesn't mean as much as most people think. That is the pressure of the saturated (wet) steam before it goes into the superheaters. While 300 PSI saturated steam has a little more heat energy than 260 PSI saturated steam, the reason why it doesn't matter is because steam locomotives run on superheated steam. The total superheat, along with the total direct heating surface (firebox area) - which evaporates almost all of the water in a firetube style boiler - is what determines the power of the steam.
@@phreshone1 It is a myth that the Allegheny was only used on coal trains. The C&O used them more on general merchandise trains, where their power-at-speed was put to good use.
@@markantony3875 Yeah, explains why the Allegheny outputs a lot more DBHP than the Big Boy