The Hobbit is Not Very Good: The Final Autopsy
Вставка
- Опубліковано 19 тра 2024
- Join me for one last adventure into the world of Peter Jackson's The Hobbit to uncover its greatest strengths and greatest failures.
00:00 - Intro
01:24 - Part I: Corrections
05:53 - Part II: Establishing Canonicity
16:50 - Part III: Theatrical vs Extended
26:38 - Osgiliath Extended Scene Comparison
37:03 - Dol-Guldur Extended Scene Comparison
44:18 - Part IV: The Characters
48:08 - Tertiary Characters
1:15:10 - Secondary Characters
1:49:57 - Dwarves Overview
1:54:03 - Primary Characters
2:11:04 - Additional Data
2:13:31 - Part V: The Plot
2:18:24 - Primary Plot Flowchart
2:27:52 - Secondary Plots Flowchart
2:36:33 - Part VI: Dragon Sickness
2:43:47 - Explanations for Dragon Sickness
2:49:01 - Part VII: Storytelling
2:49:33 - Bad Comedy and Tonal Inconsistencies
3:04:02 - The Consequences of Bloat
3:10:06 - Luck
3:15:22 - Theme
3:24:19 - Part VIII: The Adaptation Conundrum
3:29:15 - The M4 Book Edit
3:34:18 - Part IX: Unreliable Narrators
3:41:25 - Part X: Conclusion
3:49:37 - Outro
Thank you to HP Lefty for creating the pixel art character "Kronkenshield".
M4 Book Edit: m4-studios.github.io/hobbitbo...
Maple Films Edit: www.maple-films.com/downloads....
The Bilbo Edition: goldfishblues.wordpress.com/2...
Second Channel - / @randomft2
Rando Discord - / discord
Patreon - / randomfilmtalk
Twitter - / randomfilmtalk - Фільми й анімація
When Bilbo yelled "There is a tempest in me!" as the 5 Armies shot their twiddly widdlies, I stood up and clapped.
The most glorious scene in cinematic history
"I clapped! I clapped when I saw it!"
Honestly, first time I heard the sentence I thought Galadriel said "There's a Tampax in me!" (Famous brand of tampons)...
Which would explain alor about Galadriels "moods"...
@@Emanon... This, ... Jesus, this actually broke me.
It's hysterical, absurd and makes more freaking sense, _in context,_ than the actual line.
Twirly whirly I think you mean. But I don't remember Bilbo ever saying that.
One of my favorite subtle details in the lord of the rings is how Boromir feared, falling and failing like Isildur did and in the end while Isildur died, trying to flee with three arrows in his back, Boromir died, fighting with three arrows in his stomach
It is presented in the movie better than it is in the book
My heart... 😢
Symbolism.
@@TheREALSimagination ehhh it's pretty literal haha
@@TheTuttle99I mean it's sybolic to Isildur living a hero but dying a greedy, fallen hero without honor, whereas Boromir chose to face the danger to make up for himself in protecting the ones he had attempted to betray.
I don't know the specifics to why Isildur got arrows in his back but I'm completely convinced Tolkien was being subtle in pointing between Isildur and Boromir, as they practically have identical overall arcs except for the end. At least in the movies. Haven't read the books.
Today I learned that every scene in which Bifur does anything was only in the extended cut. And by "every" I mean "both."
I would love to see you review the LOTR trilogy in this style. Not only would it be refreshing to review something incredibly good, but it may highlight all the many great things about LOTR, including those that may be overlooked and it shows how to do a big blockbuster film fantastically.
This
Here here! Let's make it happen. Petition RFT to do LOTR!
I second that motion
Yes please
@@doomsdaybooty1072 might take him a couple years but i'll happily wait
Just re watched the fellowship of the ring, Boromir not only didn't want to go to the council but he was the one in moria who held Frodo back when Gandalf fell he also carried Frodo out of moria and he held Gimli back when they got out of moria, and he gave Frodo that pep talk when they got to lothlorien. In light of the extra context pointed out in his deleted scene it really makes Boromir one of the best characters
"He (Alfrid) has more screentime than Eomer, Denethor or Wormtongue in the Lord of the Rings"
... That genuinely hurts.
What do you mean Alfrid is the best character in the whole trilogy
IKR!? Random misgendered that poor woman
@@eastonsaccount 🤣
Pain, suffering, despair
@@eastonsaccount Theres nothing in that comment that says he was.
Now you've done RoP and The Hobbit, doing one on why LotR is a masterpiece would be good
It almost has to be done. Although he may do the animated Middle-earth movies and the foreign adaptations first.
It’s not, though.
@@saar144 How is it not? It's a groundbreaking adaptation with solid writing, acting, score, cgi that holds up... even if it's not your cup of tea you should still be able to admit that the LotR trilogy is peak fantasy cinema.
@@UndomaranelBecause at the end of the video, Random said he won’t do LOTR next. He may do it in the future, but don’t expect another Middle-earth video anytime soon.
@@TheMan05555 You mixed up the comments. @saar144 replied to LotR's status of being a classic, not if Random would review it.
"I don't know if any character will make the perfect spot."
*Immediately puts up the first character he talks about
I love it
Wheely boy was the true hero we deserved
This set of analysis videos are without a doubt, the single best dissection and breakdown of these movies on the internet
Of most things on teh internet!
Incredible isn’t it! His ROP breakdown was immense as well.
There is a considerable amount of book knowledge missing. I understand this is a criticism of the movies, which are NOT the books. However, a lot of the flawed presented in Part 2: Canonicity, are from book details that are omitted.
@@thomasalvarez6456Who cares? The movies are bad, it doesn't matter if it's because of the source material
@@Soapy-chan Well it does matter, it’s because too much of the runtime is spent on bloat and not on canon material which is underdeveloped or changed. The changes are what make the most egregious mistakes in the trilogy.
Just watched the M4 Book Edit and it's by far the best fan-edit I've seen.
Pros: Cuts out all of the bloat, trims scenes that were overlong, restores scenes that were necessary but left out of the theatrical version, fixes the tone issues, and uses special effects to smooth out the transitions and create a cohesive narrative. You don't even notice that content was cut out, which was a huge problem with other fanedits.
Cons: It gets rid of Wheelie-Boy.
Tough choices, man
I watched that edit this week. I will only be watching the M4 version from now on, because its masterfully edited. It takes the good parts of Jackson's trilogy and turns it into what we should have got in the first place with a good use of editing software to fix the problems other fan edits suffer (no more golden Smaug hooray!).
How did you download it ? i cant get it to start download as torrent or even just regular download (zip or just as folder )
@@notsure7060i had to open it on a computer through the google drive link at the bottom of the website page and only the 720p version worked
The front door of Erebor seems to be a movie-only problem that the film created for itself. If I recall correctly from the book it was always just open as nobody would be foolish enough to waltz right in, and Smaug would have to come out to eat every few decades or something. He was actually not a bad neighbor if you didn't bother him. Now in the film you have to wonder why he would allow the dwarves to seal him in... does he never need to eat? And if the dwarves had the power to protect themselves while working on the door it seems they shouldn't have been kicked out of their home so easily to begin with. The front door adds nothing to the movie except more story problems.
I never read anything into Thranduil's lack of help for the dwarves as anything other than him realizing he was there too late. He does in fact show up with his whole army and I don't see much of anything on his face beyond sadness as he turns away. He certainly doesn't show anything like satisfaction that he finally gets to stick it to the dwarves and if he was going to be that petty why even march there with his army to begin with? It gets established later that he's the one with the most experience out of everybody in fighting dragons so he would be the one to know if it's too late, and since he just leaves without having a conversation Thorin is free to imagine any reason he likes why they were "betrayed" by the elves.
When watching the film I was also bothered by Thorin's refusal to accept the deal for the necklace and/or box of gems. I could be reading more into it than is there but in the flashback sequence it seemed like he wasn't happy with Thror's decision not to give it to the elves but he just kept his mouth shut. He's also willing to give 1/14 share of the entire treasure hoard to a hobbit he doesn't even know, so why not agree to give back the necklace (although we should probably give him props for being honorable and not lie about it just to escape)? Not really a movie problem though if his hatred for Thranduil's elves in particular really runs that deep.
I would also upgrade your arrow from red to yellow on the idea that Sauron is just being stupid by corrupting Mirkwood and attracting attention to himself too early. I haven't seen these films since their original theatrical release so maybe they do state it one way or another, but from the book lore I have the idea that "evil attracts evil" and Mirkwood got corrupted just from him being there whether he took any overt actions himself towards that end or not. So it isn't directly his fault per se that giant spiders show up, anywhere he goes will just start collecting evil as a matter of course.
Great series, have a nice long break filled with yummy spinach puffs!
Honestly I think the biggest problem I have about the relationship between characters is... I don't see how Gandalf and Bilbo ended up long term friends. Gandalf is away half the time and when he's not, he's more busy solving everyone's problem and bossing everyone around than actually getting to know Bilbo. I believed more in the friendship between Bilbo and Thorin or Bilbo and Bofur for instance... :/
Especially since it's implied that at least Bofur and Balin were regular visitors at Bag's End.
@@darkbum1510 Oh really? :o It does make sense, since they're the 2 dwarves Bilbo seemed to be closest to ^^ They're the only ones who are visibly sad at Bilbo's departure
Completely head canon here, but Gandalf wields the Ring of Fire, which specifically kindles people hearts and will.... maybe he Narya'ed him
@@Superibis. Read the books
The name Bilbo is a euphemism, you see. Replace the Bs with Ds. It just fits.
The five best scenes from the trilogy
5. “I’ve never been so wrong in all my life.”
4. Thorin’s reconciliation with Bilbo
3. Conversations with Smaug
2. The Misty Mountains Cold
1. Riddles in the Dark
Yeah there's a good half an hour in this trilogy.
Notice how none of these scenes have any action in them
@@jamesjamozo6964 Notice how all those scenes are ripped nearly beat by beat from Tolkien's original material, and focus on the actors acting...
@@jamesjamozo6964 Big action scenes were always the icing on the cake in Middle-earth movies. For me, here are my five favorite scenes in each LOTR movie.
The Fellowship of the Ring:
5. Boromir and Aragorn’s conversation in Lothlórien
4. Gandalf and Frodo’s conversation in Khazad-dúm
3. Gandalf’s death
2. Boromir’s death
1. Sam joins Frodo after he leaves the Fellowship
The Two Towers:
5. Gandalf freeing Théoden from Saruman’s influence
4. Faramir taking pity on a dead Haradrim soldier
3. “That there’s some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it’s worth fighting for.”
2. The Boromir flashback
1. Théoden’s “Where is the Horse and the Rider?” speech
The Return of the King:
5. The One Ring gets destroyed
4. Aragorn’s coronation
3. “I can’t carry it for you, but I can carry you!”
2. Frodo leaves Middle-earth
1. Théoden’s speech before the Rohirrim charge the Orcs in Minas Tirith
Oh I love this idea of top 5 😁 Here's mine, slightly different:
5 - Bilbo's departure from Erebor at the end of the trilogy
4 - Bilbo and Smaug discussion
3 - Bofur letting Bilbo leave Erebor
2 - Riddles in the Dark
1 - Thorin reconciliationwith Bilbo
Love the edits in this video.
"Thranduil is implied to be a poor tactician"
*shows the scene where the sword-elves jump over the shieldwall to get impaled on the dwarves' polearms*
fun fact: thranduil and his army marched all the way to the movie theater and saw the hobbit trilogy being played, only to do his dramatic slow turn away with his army. then they marched all the way back to their homes and saw rings of power being played on a tv screen in another house, and then he and his army decides to slowly turn away again.
The 9 minute breakdown of the osgiliath extended scene felt like a warm ray of sunshine after a 9 hour downpour.
Thanks for that
i just finished the part where you dissect the boromir extended scene from the two towers and i have to thank you for how beautifully you explained that sequence. you literally got me choked up. boromir is also my favorite character of all time with all of his complexities and you explained it all so beautifully 🥹
Boromir's speech and "Life is good!" had more effect on me than Theoden's charge.
My favorite character.
Yo the crazy part is that Faramir wound up getting the ring way closer to daddy’s chair than Boromir did. Think on it.
@@skunkdoctorand he was more willing to give the ring than boromir, it takes direct orders from his fathers and a lot of time knowing the ring is there, for faramir is 5 minutes since gollum says Frodo has the Ring and a Freudian desire of father approval
Seeing it, never much caring for his character, makes me mad they didn’t include it since UA-camr is right - without it Boromir DOES look bad. He seems greedy from the very start and although he still gets redeemed, you never realize how corrupting the ring can be and being greedy is NOT a primary character trait of Boromir
I mean let’s be real though, can we really blame Smaug for not taking Bard seriously while he strapped his child up like a ballista? Like come on, we all know that shouldn’t have worked, so I feel Smaug is totally justified for acting like he did
@@NeoVandole he intervenes in ways that are still physically possible though, like gollum tripping and falling into mount doom. It’s more of divine providence than making ridiculous impossibilities happen just because
"Gondor was not warned." Mt. Doom told them. And the Witch King returned to Minas Morgul. And the Steward had a Palantir. Gondor knew Sauron was back. Everyone did AFTER he was driven from Dol Guldur. He declared himself openly after that.
Minas Morgul was taken a few centuries prior, if I recall, following a great plague that weakened Gondor (which may or may not have been engineered by Sauron somehow).
Yeah, but Random's point is *THE WHITE COUNCIL* didn't do anything, despite seeing and fighting and defeating Sauron himself. They literally left everyone else, especially Gondor, to find out the truth for themselves.
Still better than Rings of Power.
Plus, in my opinion - Thranduil is the most "convincing" elf in Hobbit/LOTR. Lee Pace's mannerisms, grace, elegance is unmatched.
👍👍👍 Yes, Thranduil was the most believable elf. Spot-on casting and acting.
Pace would fit right into The Silmarillion; he very much feels like that kind of Elf.
I wish I was in the alternate universe where we actually got a Guillermo del Toro Hobbit film.
I really enjoyed your breakdown of Boromir, Faramir and Denethor's family relationship. I will direct anyone I know who does not understand Boromir's motive to your video. And yes the name Evil McGee still makes me giggle. 😊
It should be mentioned that in the Tolkien lore, the Witch King isn't described as unable to be killed by men until long after he becomes a wraith. The prophecy that was made that foretold his imperviousness against the race of men occurred at the Battle of Bree by Glorfindel who was (probably purposely)vague with his prophecy to prevent the men of Bree from pursuing the Witch King after his army fled. It was only long after the battle that the Witch King discovered that Glorfindel had made a prophecy about him which led to him being overly confident when facing men from then on.
Indeed. It wasn't "no man can kill him", it was "not by the hand of man will his end come"... Being that he was telling the then king of Gondor not to pursue his foe from the battle field on that day...
Could be read as either Merry the Hobbit or Eowyn the woman, but elves can't tell the future, only that they can read the world well enough to have a kind of super-insight that humans can't understand.
Man, the whole thing with Bilbo finding courage by knowing when to not take a life really brings home how much we've lost the plot as a species with regards to entertainment, when the only one time he is allowed to show mercy is when confronted with a character that appears in a sequel. The amount we glorify and celebrate violence is almost stupidly excessive.
So...exactly how it is in the book...
There is no place for mercy against monsters with swords who are trying to kill you and others. The crab thing was out of line though, I guess?
This entire series has had me in absolute stitches so many times. I love the word document parts where the writers CLEARLY did not do this or else they would have re written characters.
Ya me too. With the classy little lounge music breaks, it's a unique move and sets RFT apart from other channels with his own distinct style.
It's unbelievable, you show some scenes from Lord of the Rings and talk about the tragedy of Boromir and I just have tears in my eyes...
About Sauron not knowing about Bilbo's use of the ring: it is a mistake taken from Lord of the Rings films. In the books he CAN NOT see Frodo when he uses the ring (that's why he knew nothing about where it actully was). So, him not knowing about the Bilbo makes absolute sence.
2:00:57 Gotta love that the reason they didn’t have them wear the armour was because they forgot to design as something they’d actually wear. It was designed as an art-piece first and armour second.
It reminds me of video game armour, wherein, duedue to the way the majority of models and rigs work, you’ll regularly see the model stretch and different parts clip into each other. Moreover, due to the designers and artists often knowing little about how armour works or not caring, it results in an armour that, if actually worn would be terribly unwieldy.
As we see in The Hobbit which is odd, because the armour in LOTR was brilliant, exemplified by the armour of the Uruk-Hai. It’s aggressive, dark and intimidating but simultaneously practical and more then functional. It both works as armour and is also filled with character. The Dwarfish armour has character, but there simply wasn’t enough thought about it actually being armour.
Gandalf made a couple of flashy entrances in the book, but the movie cranked it waaaay past 11. The pinecones are lore accurate though. Gandalf possesses narya, the elvish ring of fire, which gives him some degree of control over fire. It's a very closely guarded secret on his part, so it makes sense that you were thrown off by that. The only time he ever openly wears it, in book and film, is when he boards the boat to the undying lands.
Edit: Or rather, it SHOULD be. I believe this is true of the LotR films. Any time you see Gandalf wearing a ring in these films, that's not lore accurate.
Even when worn, the elven rings of power are not visible to anyone else except other ring bearers.
The pine cones are lore accurate, and there is a couple times in LotR where he creates fire, but unfortunately in the Jackson films those scenes were cut, creating that plothole.
Tolkien hadn't even thought up the Rings of Power when he wrote the Hobbit, let alone given Gandalf one.
@@saar144 Yeah, I edited my comment when he showed part of the scene where the orc tries to take Gandalf’s ring. I must have repressed that smh
@@klaptongroovemaster The stories are all interrelated though. If Gandalf is the same character in the Hobbit as is in any of the other lore availible prior to the release of the film, then it makes perfect sense to craft the film depiction around the complete character as much as is possible.
I 100% understand using the extended cut, because I too feel like the LotR extended cut has scenes that REALLY should not have been cut. I rewatched it on streaming recently, and so many good scenes were missing--I thought I was crazy until I realized it was the theatrical cut (and then thought THEY were crazy for only having that version available). I also think that, if some scenes DID need to be cut for time, some of Legolas's super-power scenes should have been on the chopping block (in LotR, I mean). Usually extended cuts include some useful information or touching scenes that just weren't strictly necessary, not a bunch of padding bullshit. You especially have to wonder why they bothered filming most of those scenes at all when the movies are already so full of long scenes of nothing happening. No wonder Martin was so pissed off.
I really wanted this to be good. More than anything. I was there opening night dressed as Frodo. I wore my cloak with my Lothlórien brooch and all. I didn't even go to see the third one.
These videos have been beyond cathartic. Instead of rewatching the films themselves, I'll be rewatching these analyses over the years. They've proved to be more entertaining to me, even better than the fan edits out there.
ah man that breaks my heart. I went dressed as hobbits and elves with my friends, it was great fun. But when i went to see the last film i just wanted them to be over. I kept hoping the next scene would be good. Knowing how the cast and crew tried but were basically given an impossible task, I have grown soft for these films and learned to appreciate them in their own way. But boy, the innitial dissapointment ran deep
And here I thought nobody could ever get close to Mauler. Well done Sir, well done indeed!
This break down definitely would make the long man proud.
Need them to do a breakdown together 😂 i will happily watch that 24hr dissection
Edit: has he been on efap?
A note about Dragon Sickness. (I'm going off memory here so give me grace haha)
The evil of gold comes from morgoth. The best way to understand why is to compare the way he and Sauron acted.
Sauron concentrated his evil into a small object. Morgoth in contrast poured his will into the entire world, making Arda his "ring". The effects of his were not spread out evenly though. Certain places and elements have more of his evil than others.
Gold being one of those things.
As far as I understand, this is also why it took the Valar so long to oust Morgoth from Arda as well. The war destroyed huge sections of Middle-earth when they finally got involved.
That Boromir, Faramir and Denethor scene analysis was one of your best takes
I loved the part when Gandalf cried "there can be only one" and cut off Sauron's head to gain his immorality.
31:31 - as a note to Denethor in LotR and how he knew things. He had one of the other Palantir. Idk why this was cut in the movies as it adds so much to his character. Seriously all that was needed was for Denethor to whip out the stone on the funeral pyre like he did in the books and taunt Gandalf with it. It was a great contrast with Saruman who turned to Sauron where the best Sauron could do with Denathor was get him to despair and suicide and even then only after both sons were killed (or thought killed) and only after Minas Tirith was surrounded. Easiest thing to add to the movies (prop already existed) and maybe 30 seconds added. (possibly a few minutes if you want a set up scene explaining where the 7 stones are)
I wonder if the fact that Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf all wear the Elven 3 Rings affected her ability to telepathically communicate with the other two, at higher distances?
According to the books, yes, it’s exactly that, that’s why Galadriel knows Gandalf is no longer in the middle earth after Moria in the movies too, in the books when the hobbits are coming back to The Shire, Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel sit talking without words.
Tolkien also wrote a lengthy essay on the topic of telepathy in Eä. Basically everyone has the ability to communicate telepathically but higher level beings are more proficient at it by nature.
Mad respect for you to start the video out with correcting yourself. Lots of UA-camrs don't acknowledge when they make errors in their reviews and it's a good sign of integrity when you do. Love your reviews. Keep it up man!
I've thoroughly enjoyed this evisceration so far! How a franchise can fall so far from such great heights is indicative of how money and success can corrupt even the greatest of things, and people.
Well, and incompetence.
It makes critically assessing Jackson's work with Lord of the Rings even more fascinating. There were changes he made that I think make for much better films (cutting Tom Bombadil, making Caradhras Saruman's doing, shifting Boromir's death to Fellowship's end from Two Tower's beginning). There were also bad changes, some that damage the story, some that damage characters, some that are just there for spectacle. The biggest example being the green goo anticlimax in RotK, but the added Warg attack in TT, but the destruction of Faramir in TT and Denethor in RotK frustrate me more. It undercuts the threat of Sauron compared to the books when you have a useless madman actively undermining the defense of the city. "Where are Gondor's armies?" compared to "He lit the beacons to call for all aid he could BEFORE we arrived to warn of the impending invasion." It also undercuts Theoden's intelligence when he orders to muster the Rohirrim only AFTER receiving word of Gondor's call for aid, as opposed to receiving the call for aid and leaving with his army the next morning.
Jackson is the man that saw that cutting Tom Bombadil and Glorfindel could tighten the script, eliminating what would be a problem in the films AND introducing an important character earlier, giving her characterization, and eliminating ANOTHER problem for the films. (Tom Bombadil and Glorfindel are both just too OP and would have bloated the Council of Elrond to try to explain why they aren't of more use.) He is also the man that had Frodo tell Sam to go home, WHILE IN MORDOR on the advice of Gollum. Its ruinous for Frodo's intelligence AND Sam's intelligence when Sam DOES turn around to walk home ALONE FROM MORDOR. There's no way he makes it past Minas Morgul, much less through Ithilien, before we even consider crossing the Anduin.
I don't know how much of the success of the LotR trilogy is Jackson's quality and how much was it being a passion project for so many people allowing a mediocre director that wanted to closely adapt one of the best/most important works of fiction ever to make one of the greatest film trilogies ever.
Everytime i hear "[Hobbit/RoP character] has more screentime than [LoTR character]" it greys my hair, shortens my lifespan and makes me really, really sad :(
Also that wall decoration looks like a dong 15:55
Bilbo had in his possession at one time.a blade that can tell if orcs are near..a mithril vest that can keep elves alive forever and make magic rings with (ROP)..the arkenstone which rules all the dwarfs...and the one ring..makes Bilbo the most powerful being to ever exist in middle earth.
Bilbo Baggins - he bows to no one.
I thought about that at one point like "wait, he has the Arkenstone and the literal one ring of Sauron in his pockets right now. Literaly no one would have ever won the "whats in my pocket?" Riddle. 😂
All he needed was a Silmaril and he would have been the single most conflict-macguffin laden character in the history of fantasy.
@@danielled8665 There is a fan-Theory that the Arkenstone is the Silmaril that was cast into the Earth. Probably not what Tolkien intended, but it is a fun idea to think about.
@Phillibetrus I've entertained the theory, but if it was one it would be too bright to look upon and would burn those who were not worthy of it.
Basically the stone wasn't *enough* to be a Silmarill.
@@danielled8665 yeah that's a hurdle. One way around that is to have some effect like the Vial that Galadriel gave Frodo where the light goes dim and only returns to full brightness under certain circumstances or words. Very much a stretch as the Silmarils were never shown to dim and Elendil's star is still going bright, but I don't find that the biggest objection to the Silmaril-Arkenstone theory.
As for burning those not worthy... it sat untouched in the king's throne and only Bilbo and Bard held it in the books before it was buried with Thorin so that isn't even an objection.
There is an explanation why Gandalf did not use some of his powers in LOTR but used a number of spells in The Hobbit. He was reluctant to do so. When the fellowship was attempting to climb Caradhras and were about to freeze to death Gandalf used a spell to light a fire and said (in the book and in the film) that by doing so he'd announced his presence. He did not have a choice, either that or they, especially hobbits, would freeze to death. Apparently, Sauron or some of his servants, it's unclear, had the means to "track" him or maybe any magic wielder as well as identify the person. Gandalf did not want to draw his attention because the success of their mission relied on stealth, too much was at stake.
In addition, Sauron growing in power weakens Gandalf as a ring bearer.
This is not correct at all. Gandalf cannot light a fire while climbing Caradhras because "I must have something to work on; I cannot burn snow."
Uh oh. “The idea that Biffer lost the ability to speak English due to a head injury is farsical” is an irresponsible statement, but probably an honest mistake. My grandfather had a stroke, after which he could only speak his native tongue for the rest of his life. I could converse with him before, and never again afterwards. There are two areas in the brain, towards the front on the left side (Broca’s and Wernicke’s) and if they are damaged, it is indeed possible to forget an acquired language while remembering a native tongue. Just a supportive correction! Love the channel.
This was a genuine mistake, thanks for correcting!
I'm very glad someone mentioned the M4 Book Edit in chat, during the premiere of this video. It's certainly a more-faithful adaptation than what we got from PJ. Wastes very little time, cuts out virtually all of the garbage, yet keeps the stuff you really want to see. Worth downloading!
The audio track is weird for me. Have other people had the same problem ?
Small nitpick: I always assumed the "value" of the Mithril shirt was more about it's worth as an indestructible piece of armor, not just it's monetary value; a solid piece of armor will save you far more than 10,000 pieces of gold in a battle. Given Bilbo is far less durable than the Dwarves, and has physically risked his own person several times during the quest now, it makes full sense imo for the Dwarves to give him something that significantly boosts his endurance and durability stats (and is also very $$$ valuable to boot, but it's more about protecting those squishy vulnerable insides).
Pieces of gold can be even stronger pieces of armour. Especially when there are many, many of them.
Next up, an 11 hour analysis of Emperor's New Groove!
Let's assume the Eagles carried Dain's army from the Iron Hills. Thats why they ride mountain goats; as Eagle bait. The Eagles flew them all here, then let go of the goats when Dain threatened to loose the twiddlies. Genius.
it always shocks me how much work actually goes into these autopsies, please never stop doing these
I've seen a lot of critiques/ breakdowns of media. But this is easily my favorite breakdowns of any piece of media I've seen. And I never thought I'd find critiques as good as Mauler's. You did a splendid job breaking down the mechanics of the characters and plot structure, alongside some strong arguments and references. This is the stuff I love because it motivates me when crafting my own work(If you're curious, I'm working on a potential screenplay, outlining it.) and I can see myself benefitting a lot from these kinds of videos. As for Jackson's the Hobbit films, they are bad. No denying that. However, I genuinely feel bad for Peter Jackson and the production crew.
Unlike the individuals working on Rings of Power, there was an attempt to try to recapture the LOTRs films, and had the studio not screwed them over and there was more time to refine the writing(Not making a trilogy but a duology or ideally one movie) it could have worked. That said, I still will be critical towards Jackson towards the overuse of green-screens. The reason why the LOTRs films still look good today is the mix of practical, models/ matte paintings and CGI. The CGI itself developing at the time, so the animators had to be precise when using it.
I believe had Jackson taken a similar route; these movies aesthetically would have been much better. I also know the Hobbit movies used a different camera lens and that definitely affected the look of the movie. Overall, the Hobbit trilogy is bad. But they are bad in that they do not go out of their way to insult the lore/ Tolkien intentionally. Whereas Rings of Power was a blatant middle finger to Tolkien and fans of the movies and books.
“Someone saved someone saved someone saved my life tonight” - thank you for an escape hatch from the news for a bit with some Hobbit Autopsy
This had better not be short, curt and straight to the point!
I really loved the part where Gandalf
It's been 84 years...
The extended Boromir scene in the two towers, in addition to recontextualizing Boromir's actions in Fellowship, also carries an implication that the ring could sense how terrified of it Boromir was. He was likely the most fearful of the ring out of the entire group, and in my view the implication is that the ring poured all its effort into corrupting him specifically (the weakest link) in order to fracture the fellowship. This then explains why he fell to its corruption so early in the film.
The reason for Saruman's inclusion in The Hobbit trilogy was essentially, "Saruman and Christopher Lee are both badass." Seeing him again was likely a substantial incentive for seeing the films for a lot of people, which meant that Peter Jackson would have received a lot of backlash if he wasn't shoehorned in somehow. Ditto for Elrond/Hugo and Galadriel/Cate. It's basically a class reunion. Completely pointless and unnecessary to the story, but we would have been profoundly unhappy and dissatisfied if they were not there in some capacity, so they were for that reason.
I've been recommending the Maple Films edit for a while now, and I'm looking forward to checking out the M4 one. The big problem with most fan edits though, including Maple, is that they are crippled by the source material. _The Battle of Five Armies_ is so disjointed, and deviates from the book so much, that it is almost impossible to assemble anything like a book-accurate adaptation out of it. If M4 has been able to alleviate some of this with digital effects, that will be a magnificent achievement.
One thing I can really recommend from Maple Films, however, is their separate _Durin's Folk and the Hill of Sorcery_ video, which reassembles the history of the dwarves and the events at Dol Guldur into its own entertaining and easy-to-digest side story. It gives the viewer the all the useful background filler without interfering with flow of or immersion in the main story.
I have now seen the m4 edit, and it feels like the real version now
Man what a ride this has been. Seeing someone so clearly articulate that “feels kinda off” vibe i got leaving the theater almost a decade ago has been as insightful as it was liberating. Can’t wait for your next vid, positive or otherwise, and cheers for the great times!
Great summary! I was one of the people who just wanted to return to middle earth and were left somehow unsatisfied in the end. Explained to me some things that I "felt" during watching the movies, but couldn´t put my finger on. Thank you very much!
I´m now off to watch the M4 cut...
Amazing analysis. wish I could have been here for the Premier but time zone differences...
So glad to see the shoutout to the M4 edit. I have been collecting and viewing various fan edits over the past 3 years and this one was my favorite. I am grateful to everyone involved that this trilogy exists just to get those fan edits, which I happily tack on to my annual LotR movie marathon. I acknowledge that the lord of the Rings is the better work but the Hobbit has always been my favorite book and really love seeing it played out on the screen without all the bloat.
I can't believe this has been out for 17 hours and UA-cam didn't tell me
Love your stuff man, thank you for your content
The M4 Hobbit Book Edit and Maple Films Edit are the two best Hobbit edits so far. One of the new Hobbit edits inspired by the M4 and Maple edits is the Stromboli Bones' Battle of the Five Edits. It superbly edits the Hobbit trilogy into a five-episode mini-series. But my favorite is the M4 Hobbit Book Edit. There is more information in Random Film Talk's video description. Also, fantastic autopsy of the Hobbit trilogy, my good sir!
According to an interview with the actress who played Tauriel the whole love triangle was a re-shoot. As in before they did re-shoots there was no love triangle. How would Tauriel have come across as a character without that love triangle?
Well that'd be even more than less than unhelpful.
When a character’s entire personality and purpose revolves around being a love interest, but none of their scenes advance the actual main plot, you’ve got a massive problem in your script.
Re: Boromir, Faramir, and Denethor, the crazy part is that Faramir got way closer to bringing the ring to dad’s chair than his brother.
In the words of James Acaster; every triangle can be a love triangle, if you love triangles.
I just watched 13:03:33 hrs (the full length of your Hobbit series) and enjoyed every minute of it. More than I can say of the original series. Well done!!!!
By the way, thank you for helping us all reach a relevant catharsis. It will take me days to get through this, but I'm happy it exists 😊
Denethor also has a palantir explaining his knowledge of the one ring.
I wonder if it would have worked better if Beorn could already tell while cutting wood that the dwarves were in his home (maybe smelling them), throwing Gandalf's plan for subtlety to the wind and giving Thorin a chance to show his quality in diplomacy and leadership. that could provide opportunity to show Beorn as unpredictable and powerful but compassionate. having Beorn Call Gandalf out as he holds an axe, and Thorin as one of those causing the tension taking action to make things right in hopes to ease the tension and show Beorn the respect he believes he deserves.
This is a wonderful video. I loved your analysis of the Boromir scene. I would love to see you use your analysis to do the actual extended LotR trilogy to allow people to see why that works so well and is such a great adaptation despite its flaws.
Just found you and I'm on your hobbit vids atm. I find them really amazing and detailed. I'd like to address that it is not a frozen lake but a frozen river where Thorin is fighting on, in the total shots you can see the frozen caskade. That is the reason why the Ork is flowing under the Ice. Keep up the good work, cheers
As everyone does you once more forgot the great earth eaters for the character breakdown.
I have not laughed as hard as I did during your mock Bilbo narration for a while. Well done sir
1:03:45 I couldn't agree more with the statement that the Master of Laketown had a huge amount of potential. if you want to extend the movies there is defiantly a subplot with a greedy corrupt master to be added. What we got was atrocious.
I think the main problem with the Master and Unibrow was that either the writers or the actors (or both) got caught up in their own joke; they had way too much fun making them as silly as they possibly could, and it did not translate well to the big screen. If they'd stuck to just a few silly jokes here and there, but otherwise treated them as serious characters integral to the plot, the end result might have been... let's say "passable".
The M4 book edit is amazing, I enjoyed it way more than I thought I would.
Random puts a crazy amount of time and thought into these analysis videos. Totally deserves more than 29k subscribers!
16:19
I agree with you on a lot, but here I must correct you
Sauron did not even know of the race of hobbits until he interrogated Gollum after capturing him, long after Bilbo left the misty mountains.
Even if he knew what a hobbit was, he wouldn't know of the Shire, as that region of middle earth was still unknown to the majority of the peoples, save for the rangers and elves, which Sauron of course did not control.
i'm not sure if i need the hobbit final autopsy video from my boy rft but i definitely want it. cheers
hearing richard armitage get specific on how book thorin wore his beard was a treat.
I come back and watch this breakdown about once a month. It's so well put together, it never gets old or repetitive.
I just gotta say... I like that you actually go into DEPTH of why things don't work. Most reviewers just say "X is bad" and leave it at that, or make some stupid quip or joke about it. You say WHY x is bad. I am very glad I watched your reviews on RoP and subscribed. Great content, great channel. Keep it up.
Delighted to see that the Final Autopsy is almost upon us. I’ve been waiting for it for what seems ages.
Thanks for giving us the link to the M4 Book Edit. I had no clue that people did this to movies. This is like downloading bug fixing mods for a video game. I will watch the M4 Book Edit and I appreciate your review of the Hobbit, (I've watched all of your videos on them.) and I thank you for opening my eyes to fan edits of this movie and possibly other movies.
I really like that Wheelie-Boy is the most well adjusted and well written character in the entire trilogy. He fits into the world and does his job well, and even has overcome the massive struggles in his life. What a master class of writing and character development for only 7 seconds of screen time.
Having been unable to get myself to finish the Hobbit as a trilogy I thank you greatly for sharing the link to the M4 Book edit. It may have it's imperfections from having to change as much as it did, but it truly shows the gem that was at the core of these films. I do believe it brings the ultimate LotR marathon from 12 hours to an astounding 16 hours of glorious viewing. To hell with sleep.
Interesting that your video's chapter on "Luck" is directly proceeding the chapter on Themes, when Luck is actually one of the main themes of the Hobbit book, though one that the filmmakers actively subverted at every chance. Being religious, Tolkien's perspective on what would appear to be luck (or a plot contrivance) was seen as a kind of divine providence. The book often uses phrases like "and it was then a very lucky thing happened" before Bilbo say, finds the Ring or the Arkenstone.
Two examples of the filmmakers changing the portrayal of Luck in the films from Tolkien's writing:
1.Thorin's meeting with Gandalf in Bree is described in the LOTR Appendices as a "chance encounter" that had significant ramifications for the history of Middle Earth. In the film, however Thorin explicitly says "This was no chance encounter!" when Gandalf reveals that he intentionally sought out Thorin.
2. At the end of the book Gandalf tells Bilbo "You don’t really suppose, do you, that all your adventures and escapes were managed by mere luck, just for your sole benefit? You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!". This was also recorded, nearly word-for-word for the film but at the last minute extra dialogue was written and recorded to insert this line in the middle (with editing used to hide the insertion of the line) "Magic rings should not be used lightly. Don't take me for a fool. I know you found one in the Goblin tunnels and I've kept my eye on you ever since!". This shifts the focus away from the theme of Luck (or the divine providence one can encounter when you leave your home with a spirit open to adventure) and towards clunky plot table-setting to get in one more reference to the LOTR. Meanwhile in those films, the writers wisely included Tolkien's dialogue: "There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides that of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, in which case you were also meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.”
My favourite part was when Gollum clapped Bilbo's cheeks for the One Ring. Truly one of the moments of all time. It got me really emotional.
Boromir is my favorite character too.
These movies could have been decent had they been constrained to one, maybe two movies, but everything they added or decided to "make thrilling" just made it end up like a fever dream. There is one scene in Five Armies where we get introduced to this massive troll that has had it's feet and hands removed and replaced with iron clubs, there is an orc saddled on it's shoulders steering the troll with chains set in it's eye sockets. So they clearly tortured and disfigured and blinded this troll just to make a half steerable weapon. Pretty cruel. And then at the next moment we get a giant rubber dwarf bounce his way onto the troll, and now there is a giant fat dwarf steering the troll himself! He's so fat! And he makes a dumb poopy face like he just made a poopy in his pants! So silly!
Like what am I even supposed to be feeling in that moment? Cruelty shock and slapstick humor at the same time? And this is only one tiny segment in the third movie. I remember watching the third movie in theaters for Christmas and the part where Legolas is hanging from a giant bat upside down beheading like forty orcs in a row I just wanted to blow my brains out from cringe.
They added her in because there were too many guys? Are you serious? You tell someone that thinks like that "we are all human!". I don't need to be a girl to like/love and female characters, nor do I want male characters forced in if it becomes a clamfest. ffs
Great video, mate.
Legolas: "That motherfucker owes me for the pizza"
Tauriel: "Don't worry, I know where he lives"
When I say to my friends I've found the absolute best analysis of the hobbit movies - and that it's a only a mere 12 hours(ish)... they laugh.
But oh my, have you created something absolutely fantastic here! It's... I mean ... just marvelous.
The amount of work that has to go into making these videos, I cannot even start to fathom. The cutting, the script, music, timing, everything.
I'll stop my rambling of positivity here.
Tldr: You sir, are great! Continue! 🤩
Sitting down for my first cuppa and to rewatch your *Hobbit Final Autopsy.*
Side note: I’m really looking forward to your take on the Rings of Power Season 2.
I have *NO* desire to watch the series, but since finding your channel, I have EVERY desire to hear your evaluation of each and every episode AND any final autopsies. *CHEERS RFT*
This whole series of videos was absolutely excellent! The Hobbit has always been my favorite book, and you’ve touched on exactly what I’ve been feeling with these movies since day one, but in such a way that it never feels like you’re attacking the movies for the sake of attacking them. The amount of thought and analysis put into these videos truly astounds me, and I can’t begin to say how much I appreciate the thoroughness.
Excellent job, all around!
Given your analysis of the Boromir, Denethor, and Faramir scene I think you should highly consider an LOTR retrospective. Very well done
Having recently finished the book of the Hobbit, Bomber not speaking is ironic. There, he probably had the 3rd most lines of the dwarves, behind only Thorin and Balin. But even there it was always fat jokes, usually complaining about the trip or having to walk instead of sleep. Im almost not complaining as I actually found him kinda annoying in the book.
Also featured: Dori was apparently supposed to be the physically strongest of the group, being the first pick to throw a rope a distance, but they went with Fili instead for his better eyesight.
I was also surprised to find out that Gandalf's side quest to drive Sauron (also disguised as a Necromancer) back to Mordor was actually part of the book. That said, it was off screen there so several details about how that worked were left unanswered. Apparently meeting Thorin's father and his death also happened, though it was a separate, earlier event. Also, once again: off screen (Sort of, the book did go through revisions in it's time, so maybe these were later additions after LOTR was published).
Minor point on the accents: I can buy that, having left the mountain, they picked up other accents where they ended up separated afterwards. As someone who lived for a while in a different part of the country from the rest of my family, it can change very easily, and isn't really determined by relations/ancestry.
My favorite explanation for R2 in AotC comes from the D&D spoof comic "Darths and Droids". In that segment the regular DM was away and RD's min-maxing player subbed. He designed the whole puzzle segment with what he would want to play, as opposed to the theater nerd newbie practicing her improv playing Anakin and the carefree numbskull playing Padmé. R2 was gifted tons of random abilities because "you humans cna always get new weapons, why can't a droid as smart and well designed as R2 craft their own, R2 needs them to keep up with your flipping and fighting and totally fits the character as a space mechanic". When the DM returned it was all scrapped and never mentioned again. 😂
I forgot about this comic.
Also, it's still going and is doing the Last Jedi with a new update just yesterday.
The only good Alfred scene -- and I'm not making a joke with this -- is when the townspeople nearly lynch him. Probably because it's not about him but about the townspeople having lost everything and their being at the end of their tether -- and Bard asserting a reasonable authority in (for once) a rather organic way.
Apologies if this comes accross as a bit of a rant, but your reviews inspired a bit of something in me.
The Hobbit is one of the most important books I have ever read. When I was battling with a bout of depression in college, I did a re-read of the book, and since then I have made sure to read it once every year, usually in the fall. While it is a children's book, it is by no means a children's book that treats its audience like children. For every cockney troll and pocket book that squeaks 'ere, o're you?' there's a moment of extreme tension and maturity, be it in the form of Gollom's deadly riddle game, Smaug's destruction of Lake Town, or the Battle of the Five Armies. It's a story that teaches that everyone can find their courage and discover something about themselves they didn't know exists, while also explaining the dangers of being blinded by a lust for treasure over the quiet, little comforts of life. Meanwhile, the whimsical moments like the trolls or Beorn's giant animals help to add flavor and colour to Tolkien's smaller world.
It is this lack of colour that I think, above all else, that I hate about the Hobbit Trilogy. This has been a trend in fantasy for many years, but they prefer to make their worlds as grey, gloomy, and close to real-life as possible. Lake Town is a great example of this: the movie makes them poor and squalid and struggling under the oppressive yoke of a politician who doesn't care for them, while in the book, the Master could be a little treasure-focused, but he was overall a decent leader and Laketown was making a decent living under him. I can ignore Tauriel and roll my eyes at some of the action scenes, but sucking out the magic of the Hobbit and replacing it with these gloomy images crafted by cartoonishly evil bad guys is unforgivable.
The Hobbit has never been out of print since it's initial release for a reason: it's a story that people can connect to even decades after it came out. Jackson's films have a few defenders, but ultimately I don't think they are going to be remembered nearly as fondly because of all the reasons you've pointed out in your videos. It's saly ironic because, when Tolkien was writing Lord of the Rings, he considered re-writing the Hobbit to make it match more with the tone of the later books. Ultimately he stopped halfway because, while the story was good, it was no-longer The Hobbit. I feel Jackson and his crew ended up falling into the same trap with their movies: by making it more epic and serious, they took away that special kind of magic found in the original story.
You did an awesome job with these reviews, and I can't wait to see what you tackle next!
Before anyone goes looking for a fan edit make sure you have a physical copy of all three movies first. Than it counts as a license conversion and not piracy.