As an hvac tech, I actually do agree with most of this. The repair cost for the customer for standard efficiency furnaces is drastically lower. On average swapping an inducer motor on a standard furnace ends up costing the customer on average $300-$400 all said and done. Then I've swapped out some very top of the line modulating inducer motors that no joke cost the customer over $2000. You go from buying a simple motor to buying an extremely complicated motor, that has extra components like a transducer and sometimes even needing a board replacement with new harnesses if it's york. Not to mention how much more complicated the troubleshooting process can be. I've taken classes at york for their high end equipment and even in the classes 80% of the troubleshooting involves being on the phone with tech support. With all these variables the chances of a misdiagnoses on a top of the line furnace is higher, which means mistakes happen and the wrong part may get put it at the cost of the customer. All this can be avoided by just having a nice standard 80% furnace. Also yes, problems with the secondary heat exchanger is always a killer for the unit. It does not take a lot to have them get clogged up especially if the combustion isn't dialed in properly
Hi everyone!! I just want to make a disclaimer to clear up possible misunderstandings. I am NOT against high efficiency furnaces. They are nice units! They look great, are efficient and quiet. Are they better than the 80% units? Absolutely. If money is not a concern for you, buy a high efficiency unit. I just don't like the sales pitch that highly overestimates how much money these high efficiency furnaces save. Often the 95% furnace is compared to a 60% furnace to show impressive savings but really they should be comparing it to an 80% furnace. People who are looking to save money should opt for an 80% furnace. Less money upfront, less repair costs, and very likely to last longer. It will heat the house just as good as a high efficiency furnace.
In canada it’s illegal to purchase a 80 percent furnace. A furnace only meets its efficiency when it’s extreme cold. We’ve been putting in iflow units that have a real 90 percent efficiency they blow the gas furnaces out of the water and only have 4 parts
When I replaced my "VERY tired but still working" 35-year-old furnace at my home, my installer asked my opinion and I said 80%. Less to break and cheaper to fix. And he'd been in the industry for 50 yrs. And he said, "yep".
When We purchased our house 19 years ago, it had a 60% furnace. We purchased a Trane 94% AFU, 2 stage, condensing furnace. It paid for itself in 4.5 winters by NG gas savings alone. With cleaning/maintenance every 2 years, it lasted 19 years until we sold the house. It is still working well today. The house is located in upstate NY, so winters are a thing.
Ya I have installed a few hundred high efficiency furnaces and I totally do agree with what he has said and most of mine are 20 years old never had to repair any yet except for small parts, also thankless hot water heaters will never go back to tank.
That’s because you purchased that Trane furnace almost 19 years ago. You couldn’t buy a Trane furnace today that would last 19 years. Secondly, 19 years ago you had a PSC blower motor which would last a good 20 years. Today’s Trane condensing furnace contains an ECM motor which has about a four year lifespan and they cost over $1000 to replace. The advice given in the video is advice for people making the purchase now…..not 19 years ago, not 37 years ago….. now.
My furnace is now over 50 years old and is still going strong. I've owned the house for 26 years and have spent $0 on furnace maintenance beyond filter cost. Things were made so much better back when CEOs were not focused on planned obsolesce and trimming ever penny from the cost of components.
@@highwind8124 LOL, you must of got screwed on a high efficiency furnace. You don't know his furnace is unsafe but assume so. And yes, a lit candle in a house can also endanger everyone in a home but people still use them.
I agree with a lot of what you said,Jay. As a retired HVAC man I am fortunate enough to have installed my own equipment. Having eliminated the "middle man" by purchasing from the factory. I can honestly say my electric bill was cut in half with the high efficiency & the gas bill is relatively the same after 6+ seasons. I do want to make a statement. In my opinion, it doesn't matter how energy efficient we try to be,we are never going to win because these greedy corporate energy companies are going to charge us more $$$ because of their share holders! 80% or 98+% we can't win! Enjoy your knowledge,Jay.
"we are never going to win because these greedy corporate energy companies are going to charge us more $$$ because of their share holders! " I own two gas wells on my property, no share holders. I get paid whatever the market rate is. I don't sell for less than the market rate, and i can't sell above it.
What savings you get from using a high efficiency HVAC system is lost to the higher price of the units. You save on the one hand and pay with the other. Companies know this and will always take advantage of it.
@@Rhaspun The math just doesn't add up when the most you're looking at between 80 and 98 is a potential 18 percent reduction during the heating season alone. Saving 36 bucks off a 200 dollar gas bill less than five months a year means you might save 1800 bucks over a decade. Meanwhile, you paid the 4 grand difference in installation and unit cost in year 1. That 4 grand might be 8 grand if you put it in a mutual fund for ten years instead of a furnace. In 20 years, you might save 5 grand if gas prices doubled a decade later. Meanwhile, your 4 grand would have grown to 16 grand in the mutual fund. If your unit doesn't last 20 years, you're even further in the hole.
@@MK-xl9tt The last survey indicated that I can expect the same yield for at 25 more years. If I used it only for my personal consumption, it's enough for about another 150 years. I've intentionally limited how much they produce. They pretty much paid for the 20 acres I'm on along with the house I built and my 50X100 shop. As they near commercial exhaustion, there's still enough to fully run everything on my property as long as I'm alive.
I have a old Bard furnace that is close to 50 years old and working fine, Only cost for over the last 35 years is filter replacements. After listening to you and a couple of others I have decided to keep it for the factors that you mentioned. Thanks for your video.
I do HVAC in Canada and I agree 100%. I see older furnaces lasting 25 years and my boss wants me to convince the customers to have them replaced with ZERO problems. The pitch is that they will save money. How the F do you save money by spending money? The heat exchangers on those old furnaces are 1000 times better. I have seen so many York furnaces have heat exchanger problems after 3-5 years its mind boggling.
My home was built in 1995 and the original Carrier (standard efficiency) furnace is still going strong. And I live in Wisconsin so it gets used on a year-round basis since I also have central air. I'm also still using the original refrigerator and stove with zero problems. They just don't make things like they used to.
The reason is, when a furnace is required to be more efficient (a newer model) the heat exchangers are thinner and don't last as long due to metal fatigue. Older, less efficient furnaces have thicker heat exchangers.
I certainly understand why you have over 400,000 subscribers. Your videos show the most common sense, knowledge, and objectivity of just about any I have seen (on ANY topic). And your presentation organization, style, and pace are excellent. Happy to be a new subscriber and to bookmark you on my own "home resources" log. Thanks so much for doing these. I'll be watching!
You're 100% right older furnaces that had thermocouples blasted 40/50 years and you didn't have condensation tubes leaking into your furnace. It was a hotter heat. I believe my parents were scammed years ago they said it had a small leak crack and ever since then between 8 and 10 years the furnace has to be replaced meanwhile the old one lasted for 40-something years. The old ones worked far better. Thanks for telling the truth.
I am an HVAC, professional 37 years. I completely 100% agree with everything in this video. I feel the same way about high-efficiency air, conditioners and heat pumps with inverters. They are so expensive. They never will pay for themselves. It’s just getting a little too ridiculous and complicated especially in residential. A $3000 repair bill usually hurts most people pretty good.
It might be true for many, but generalizing like this is a dangerous way to think. For example, my wife and I moved into a medium sized house in NH with a recently installed 95% propane furnace. What we didn't know was the shape of the house and climate would lead to a propane bill of about $6000 a year. We ended up installing a geothermal system for $25000 which went down to about $18000 after rebates. So far, it uses less than $1000 in electricity (even with the crazy new rates) so we're expecting a payback time of about 3 years. The loan we got costs much less than our monthly propane bill. The maintenance is far less too (about $100 a year for both heating and cooling vs $300 for the furnace plus $100 for the AC). Not to mention it's more comfortable and it makes the air less dry in the winter. Now this isn't a typical situation, but many in NH have this problem and if we resist change for the sake of resisting, it'll do more hurt then good. As for the 80% vs HE furnaces debate, there's definitely a good argument there for the 80%. Like everything, it's a numbers game. The trick is knowing what the numbers are and be able to project costs accurately
Lets Calculate: Savings of 95% over 80% for 35 year life of Lennox Pulse. $1000 year spent on Nat Gas with 95% so spent $35k in 35 years. Would need 19% more gas for an 80% (.95/.80=.19). So $35k * 19% = $6,650 saved over 35 years. NOT ONLY is there energy savings, but HIGH quality equipment last twice as long, so saves another $3k to install another one.
This guy really makes a lot of sense. I have been in the business for close to 40 years. If you need to get rid of your money buy a high efficiency and most complicated unit and you will find out. Thank you for sharing great info.
I also agree being retired from HVACR Nothing compares to the repair price and the look on the customers face My I add the installation usually Will lead u to the problem 50% of the time especially airflow and maintenance of the secondary drain CHEERS By the way I don’t miss being on call.
Thank you all! It's an honor to hear that veteran techs are of the same opinion. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter! Haha Anthony, I am happy for you - that you no longer have to get called out in the middle of the night. 👍👍 That call out notification sound on my phone will be permanently ingrained in my head. 😅
I was told only High Efficiency furnaces available in Toronto Canada.. 🇨🇦. ‘Just replaced Original 2004 Lennox 88,000 BTU @ 92% efficiency natural gas furnace with a 90,000 BTU @ 96% High efficiency Lennox unit due to age in Toronto , Canada $3,900 (CAD) as I already got my money’s worth and don’t want to freeze in cold winter.. Thanks for everyone’s info your channel is very informative .. I think with the new higher efficiency furnace now is oversize for 2,700 sq ft home and cycles much more often which isn’t good for it’s more wear and tear on equipment.. I should’ve downsized to 80,000 BTU instead >> All good 👍 BRAVO! 🇨🇦
Hi. Sharon and Ron here in Alberta Canada. Our flame master furnace was installed in 1976. We bought the house in 1987. Replaced the exchanger in 1987 for total of $75. Have not had any problems
For my house we never had automated heat until about 10 years ago. We had a woodstove only. The reason we went with a high efficiency was due to the pvc venting. I didn't want to add a B vent through the roof or an ugly one on the outside of the house and I did not want to share the chimney with the wood stove. I think the pvc venting is often the only reason people go with a 90+ furnace. I enjoy your videos man.
Thank you for sharing! I agree 100%. I’m an HVAC and plumbing tech. I say the exact same thing about high efficiency on demand water heaters. I only offer to install an IBC on demand water heater because they only have 5 components compared to 42 (on average).
Couldnt agree more. I am a self employed plumber gasfitter here in canada but I cant buy mid efficients here so I tell people to stick with their standard or mid efficient furnaces. The high efficient furnaces are very expensive to repair and have a new variety of problems like vent pipes freezing off or acidic condensate rotting out cast iron drains. I have two 1974 inter city furnaces in my place and they are built to be bulletproof and when properly tuned up you can hit nearly 80% efficiency with them. Parts are readily available and break downs are few and far between.
Great, thanks. My gas furnace from around 1960 still works great. Had to have the blower (forced air) replaced around 1984. The one thing I'd advise for old furnace would be to replace the pilot light setup with electronic. No need to turn it off in summer (if you do that) and relight, etc. and no wasted gas for the pilot itself even in winter.
Great advice. My new house has a high efficiency Carrier unit that's 20 years old (previous owner had new heat exchanger installed) and of course the thing takes a crap in a cold snap (10-15 degrees) over Thanksgiving when family are flying in. and of course because it's 20 yrs old and also a proprietary unit, parts are not readily available and need to be ordered from out of state. That board with labor cost me $950. Then over Christmas, it goes out again. The guy doesn't answer his phone, but I has a little schooling in HVAC and watched your videos, read the fault codes and found that my condensate box was plugged. easy fix after draining almost a gallon of water out and cleaning the box. They want $7200 to replace the furnace with a Trane unit. He said he can save me 1k if we go with the Goodman, but it's a little louder. My problem is that I don't have a chimney, so I don't know if I can go to an 80% furnace.
@@timrob0420 Never replaced anything. I live by San Francisco, so no extreme weather so far . I have cleaned the burners last year , and they weren’t very dirty either. I would take that brand again cause it’s my own experience. Thanks for your comment.
OMG, yes. We had done without an old screen door at the rear of our house (which happens to be the main entrance). We just happened to run into an old aluminun one at a yard sale a few weeks ago. Luckily it had the frame pieces, which has been one delay in me (@ 70) replacing it. We paid 5.00 for it, I got it going and a young man helped finish hanging the frame. I bought some new cedar trim and bottom 2X4 to support and YAY...we noticed the difference immediately. Our house is 10 times more warm. It is raining and 40 outside, but cozy without the heat on. I caulked all of the window frames too and that helped. Now to get at the old floor furnace and get it cleaned and going. Small things help a lot...Don't forget those heavy curtains.
We just purchased a new high quality manufactured home, 2X6 walls, R-30 ceiling, R-19 exterior wall insulation, R-11 floors insulation, dual thermal pane winds and 1/2" interior drywall. I was disappointed at first it only had a 80% efficiency furnace, we live in SE Michigan, our condo we sold had an 96% efficiency furnace, the home square footage is roughly the same, believe it or not our natural gas bills are nearly the same. Thanks for this video.
As someone in the HVAC trade since 1992, you are on point with just about everything. Here are some points not mentioned in your video; Some homeowners MUST only use 90% or higher AFUE furnaces due to existing flue conditions. Installing a B-Vent metal flue (which a 80% furnace uses) in an existing two or three story home, could be very invasive and costly, so you may be forced to go 90%. I would also mention dual fuel, which is replacing the A/C unit with a heat pump that only uses the gas on the coldest days. There is currently a $2000 tax credit (not a deduction) when homeowners install qualifying heat pumps. I have seen furnaces last much longer in that application as their usage is lower. Lastly, in all the years working in this industry, every regulation like the efficiency of furnaces or the type of refrigerant used, started as a DOE suggestion, so I would not be surprised if that 90% regulation comes to fruition in January 2029. There are many local municipalities that have already implemented and most manufacturer's are anticipating it. Thanks for the good video.
30 years in the industry and I completely agree with everything you said. You are very knowledgeable on residential equipment. My main reason for selling high efficiency furnaces is no chimney or eliminating an old chimney with no liner. Unfortunately the government sets the efficiency standards and all furnaces are now going to require ecm blower motors which are more problematic and ridiculously more expensive. It such a racket. I sell my customers on reliability and they thankful for the honesty.
I personally go for the high efficiency just because the venting is much easier to manage being pvc, HOWEVER, past that give me single stage valve, single speed blower, nothing fancy
@@nicholashaines4136 110% wrong on multi-speed fans and gas valves. In fact, I'd recommend upgrading past the dollar tree single stage or multistage fan motors and going with an ECM motor. Extremely quiet, way more efficient, and will 3-4 times longer.
Psc motors are on there way out ecm is the new industry standard they are quieter, more efficient, and better modulation of air flow all good points. I personally haven’t noticed them to last longer than multiple speed motors actually the opposite and 3 to 4 times the cost to replace this would be the down side. Government sets the industry efficiency standards so good or bad its what we’ll be installing.
@@MK-xl9tt 100% ECM last longer due on start up that dont get 100% power all at once blasted at them. Instead ECM very slowly ramps up the power = less wear on motor and duct popping.
I know what you mean… the last standard furnace I sold to my surprise had an ECM motor! And the dip switch settings were so small to read I couldn’t tell what my CFM’s were set for!!!! I ended up jus starting ac up & adjusting best I could! Fortunately the airflow for heat & cool was pre-adjusted correctly! I hate when they make a simpler thing more complicated! “If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it better!”
In 2006 the installer gave me the option of installing a high efficiency 90+ or an 80+ efficiency furnace, I opted for the 80+ Goodman. Over the years I have had to replace a flame sensor, draft induced motor and a run capacitor for the furnace motor. I also replaced the run capacitor for the AC condenser. All parts were readily available on Amazon and were very ease to diagnosis with a multi meter and install. Very glad I got the 80+ and not the 90+. I totally agree with you, great videos appreciate it. The furnace is running great at 17 years old.
When I worked for a contractor, we would charge are diagnosis and sell a A/C compressor capacitor for about $75, and about .5 hour labor for a total cost about $187. Your amazon capacitor is only about $20, so a great job saving money!
I think a big factor is the region I live in. In a cold region where you'll be requiring heavy amounts of energy a high efficiency furnace is probably worth it and my state offers rebates to even the cost with a low eff unit. I could see this being true in Southern states where heat demand is low but I believe it's worth it in the north.
I bought my house in 2012. We had a great working furnace. Then the next winter was coldest in history. I went thru 800 dollars of propane in 5 weeks. My house was built in 1980. It is fairly well insulated. I bought the high efficiency and it paid for itself in less than 5 years. I agree with you in most of all u say. In northwest Ohio it gets cold. I am happy with mine so far
I miss the old days. I started in 1985 and with the truck with a decent amount of truck stock. Nothing too crazy I could repair just about every furnace out there. Now forget that because of all the different parts. When it comes time to replace it, just put an 80% furnace in. The thing I have to warn you of though is the government right now especially with the Democrats in charge of the Fed want to make a minimum for efficiency 90%. So if your parents are thinking about replacing the furnace soon they should do it before any new regulations, and they will have to get a condensating furnace. Those old furnaces are tanks, but they won’t last forever.
@@benkuxhouse787 I wonder how you feel about old cars and old refrigerators and furniture and old computers. If you believe older is better you are delusional. The fact is, the improvements ARE better. The problem is people like you who are not capable of learning something new and use rubber bands and gum to keep crap running longer, but endangering people.
After retiring I wanted the best, installed 98% and 21 SEER. As natural gas price doubled, I really don't notice it, in the summer I can run my A/C during demand response utility increases and don't notice that either. I paid upfront to avoid concerns over my utility bills and so far am very happy with my choice. My equipment has a ten year warranty and lifetime heat exchanger. Hope I live that long! Thanks for your video!
You should have installed a heatpump. Absolutely nothing is cheaper heating. A 21 seer heatpump only increase the heating efficiency less than 2 on the hpsf over a 15 seer. You need to get the gas furnace taken completely apart every 2 or 3 years because the secondary heat exchanger gets lint built up like an evaporator and will melt the AC coil due to the heat rise due to the lower airflow. I charge $800 to $1500 to clean one. The inverter board is $2,500 if it fails. The parts aren't universally stocked meaning you might be left without heat or ac for a month or more waiting on the warranty parts. These aren't very popular and parts are way too expensive for the distributor to have sitting around. Virtually everything is special ordered. I've replaced around 5 condenser boards in the past 3 weeks in some inverter heatpumps because we had rolling blackouts that killed them. An out of warranty blower motor is about $1000 vs $225 for a 15 seer. The condenser motor is around $300 to 500 higher. The internal board is about $600 vs $50. The expansion valves fail quite often on the 18 plus seer. Costs $600 to replace labor, possibly $1000 more for freon (freon isn't covered under warranty) depends on the factory requirements, $400 if the expansion valve is out of warranty. You better get rid of it in ten years.. seriously. Oh yeah, some factories requires the warranty part sent back before they'll replace it on those high end units. I've been doing this work since 1988. Own a HVAC company for 21 years.
I’ve been in the HVAC business over 20 years as a lead installer and I agree with what he said. Same goes for those condensers with higher seer, the basic ones have much cheaper and less parts that can go wrong and can cool your house efficiently as long as it’s well sized.
Lets Calculate: Savings of 95% over 80% for 35 year life of Lennox Pulse. $1000 year spent on Nat Gas with 95% so spent $35k in 35 years. Would need 19% more gas for an 80% (.95/.80=.19). So $35k * 19% = $6,650 saved over 35 years. NOT ONLY is there energy savings, but HIGH quality equipment last twice as long, so saves another $3k to install another one.
@@pablopicaro7649 35 years!? LOL , it won’t make 10, plus all the very pricey parts that you need to replace along the way, even if you are a great tech like me you still have to pay for the parts. I installed them since new, saw them along the way and at the end of their life. I’m talking about any brand. Real field experience here. ✌🏼
@@JohnHVACR , I wish I didn’t have to agree with you but I do. The equipment over the past 10 or 15 years has been going downhill at a steady pace (leaking evaporators , plugged secondary heat exchangers, ECM motors lasting three years, problematic TXVs and now we’re abandoning 410 A). As far as the pulse furnace ,they started losing their luster when the recall came out on their heat exchangers manufactured between 1982 -1989 and stop manufacturing the pulse furnace completely over two decades ago. Lennox did stand behind their problems but they were problems nonetheless.
This is great advice. A couple of years ago, I got the basic one. My son-in-law didn’t listen to me & bought the ‘better’ one. He has had several problems already.
I installed a Goodman high efficiency furnace 2 years ago. Why Goodman? Practically every other furnace can only be purchased through an installer and that means you have to pay someone to install it. When I was trying to decide which Goodman furnace to install, I discovered two things. 1. Like all furnace manufacturers, Goodman offers a standard 80% furnace and then they offer several efficient furnaces starting at 96% and going up at small increments like 97%, 98%. Each of these small increments cost plenty as they claim you'll be more comfortable if the furnace evens out the heat by fluctuating the gas supply or fluctuating the fan speed. This might be true, but I can tell you that no one in my family has ever complained about the heat not being even as our standard furnace turns on and off. Most people don't even notice when it turns on and off. Further, I consider these features to be more reasons for the furnace to fail in the future requiring hundreds of dollars to fix. 2. The initial purchase rebates available vary from state to state, but in Minnesota, I discovered that the rebates actually make it more expensive to purchase the 80% rather than the 96% so that's what I bought. The simplest high efficiency furnace. It doesn't turn down the burners and it doesn't vary the fan speed but who cares?
@frankhoward7645 Thank you for sharing your insights and experience! I appreciate you explaining the reasons behind your decision making. I am sure many will find this helpful.
I agree. An installer put a high efficiency in my attic. 2 times I have had the condensate line freeze and cause leaks that damaged my ceiling. So now I am in my attic installing heat tape and better insulation on the condensate line to prevent this in the future. When the heat tape comes on (below 37), it will be consuming around 200W of electricity. So that likely wipes out any energy savings on gas.
Agree, I have a mid 1980's American Standard Furnace and A/C unit. 2 HVAC guys came out and said they are still very worth repairing over replacing them are very efficient for my 930 sqft Bungalow in the Northeast.
You do make very valid points. I use to think exactly like you and pushed hard for customers to buy 80%ers As I got older and went to more training and schools I learned that all the reasons I hated 90%ers had to do with three reasons. One oversized furnace for either the load of the home or undersized ductwork for the home. Two, installed wrong. Bad venting practices bad draining practices. And lastly, not blowing out condensation traps yearly. I’ve seen 30 year old 90’s in the wild still rocking and rolling because the insulation was done exactly the way the manufacturer intended. Having said that a 90 installed wrong will absolutely fail way sooner than a poorly installed 80.
I have a 1983 Sear's furnace and AC unit. In the last 12 year's I had it cleaned and serviced twice. I change the filter regularly. It's an old 80% efficient model furnace. The tech that cleaned it last said we should get a newer, more efficient model, but I asked him, can I get one that will last half as long as our old one? He said no. Maybe 7-10 year's. It's just not worth it to me.
Thanks I have to agree...My Payne furnace is 57 years old...I'm going to buy a 80% only because I'm going to install it up in the attic and free up some space in my small house... in SoCal I only run it for three months...heck I don't even need a furnace or AC here by the beach.
We just had a new 80,000Btu 96% efficient 2 stage furnace put in last August. To me, it's not all about saving money. The builder put a furnace that was almost twice as big as needed. That was 1988. It was an 80% 150,000 Btu unit. What is really important is comfort. With an oversized unit, it is never on. That means you freeze when it isn't really that cold out which is most of the time you need it. And it is impossible to get performance out of a humidifier when the furnace never runs. I think if you are in an area that gets down to 0 degrees Fahrenheit once in awhile, a little more expense for a two stage is well worth it for the days when it is 40-50 outside. If it cost $4,500 and lasts 15 years, that is only $300 a year. i pay 10 times that for the families cell phones. So far my gas costs have been 20-25% cheaper this winter.
Wow thank you. This channel is very helpful to me. I was considered high efficiency but just now give up. Because simple enginering is better solution. Especially at winter time we cannot find good engineer right on time thats problem my experience. Thank you. Thank you.
As a retired HVAC technician I agree with your comments, however living in Canada, high efficiency is your only option if you need a furnace, as mid efficiency furnaces were discontinued in 2010 😢
My Day & Night gas furnace is from 1977. It still works. I've had 3 hvac technicians to my house because I wanted to just clean and check it, but all 3 said it's not worth the risk to clean it because it's so old and it might risk something breaking. They all recommended replacing with a new standard 80% gas furnace because next year in california they won't be able to install a 80% gas furnace. I'm not sure what to do. We use the heater from nov to march. It gets into the 30s at night in winter.
I couldn't agree more and wish I had seen this video in 2005 before I built a new house and before I had to replace that unit in under 10 years and did so with another high efficiency unit which has given me more issues than any previous 80% furnaces I owned.
Unfortunately in Canada we don’t have a choice now, can’t even get your hands on a mid efficient new furnace. But can still repair mids as well as even replace the heat exchangers. I’m still hanging onto my sturdy %80 2007 Lennox
Excellent warning video. Yes efficiency is expensive. Remember my new a/c installed in summer of 2020? It has a ecm circulator motor. It’s very efficient. But it was replaced a few months ago. It was still warranted by manufacturer, but installation was $800. Just an example of new technology.
Great advice! You really nailed it. My Dad bought a high eff. furnace and only used it four years because the cost of repair parts was breaking him. If you have an old fashioned, standard furnace, it is gold.
Absolutely one of the very best UA-cam's that I have ever watched and it 83 I don't have much time to waste. To sum it up in two words is common sense. Thanks so much.
Totally agree with all your points about high efficiency furnaces. Currently have a Trane 80% natural gas furnace that is 20 years old and still running good. Has the original ECM fan motor and only replacement parts are the hot surface igniter and flame sensor. I changed those out just as preventative maintenance items. I have heard from a few other UA-cam people that 2028 is what they are hearing regarding end of 80% furnaces. But never heard what their source of information was.
I got approx 26 yrs out of 80%Trane installed 1992. Replaced before breakdown because I got a few unexplained error codes Fall/Winter 1991. The HVAC guys could not find what triggered the code. Nor could they repeat it. So to be safe I bought a new 80% about 3 yrs ago. No issues other than Nat Gas costing so much more now. Heating bills during winter are $40 to $50 more a month now.
Lets Calculate: Savings of 95% over 80% for 35 year life of Lennox Pulse. $1000 year spent on Nat Gas with 95% so spent $35k in 35 years. Would need 19% more gas for an 80% (.95/.80=.19). So $35k * 19% = $6,650 saved over 35 years. NOT ONLY is there energy savings, but HIGH quality equipment last twice as long, so saves another $3k to install another one.
This man is being totally up front and honest ! go with the 80% for parts availability and cost when you do need them . Most contractors try to push the high efficiency units and charge a lot more. not cool
I agree. Company I work for is new construction and I’m having to service the 90’s a lot. There’s also things like builders go for aesthetic and cheap duct design but a lot of internal leaking, failing pressure switches, P Traps in attic flus which is bad install but still an additional thing to worry about
Probably a LOT of people forget to change the filter, Ive seen plenty of HVAC service videos showing the tech going to the customer's house for a no heat, and they check the filter and man oh man!! one I remember was BLACK, it had so much lint, dust and crap built up on it it was probably never changed and that's a big killer of heat exchangers and every other part in the furnace due to bad airflow
My niece has a 1965 78% furnace installed by the builder! Just keeps running! No inducer motor, no glow coil, just a pilot. I worked on a 1929 home with a Bryant gravity furnace, and the casting said Bryant Beverly Hills California. The furnace was located in Long Beach CA. Remember back in 1925, Beverly Hills was a farming community. Back in 2009, I replaced a indoor fan motor on a Singer high efficiency packaged unit, and the motor cost was over $600, so the customer paid over $850. A normal unit would only cost about $200 or so. When I installed a air conditioner for my sister, I wish I had put in a heat pump. It would use a lot less expensive electricity most of the year to heat her home, not the expensive natural gas. My brother uses propane out in the country, and I might recommend installing a heat pump in his home, once the A/C fails, maybe sooner? To get 100,000 Btu's of heat, you could run a heat pump for about 5 to 8 KW, or run a electric heater using 23 KW, or burn about 1.1 gallons of propane in high efficiency furnace or 1.2 gallons in a 80% model. Usually the 8 KW heat pump is the least expensive mode! A gallon of heating oil is the very most expensive way to heat a home these days!
I have been telling everyone this forever. I am an hvac tech going on 27 years. I have never seen a high efficiency unit go more than 5 years without a problem and condensing heat exchangers always clog up the drains and heat exchanger itself-I personally would not own one yet. I just replaced my whole system and installed an 80 per enter.
I'm an HVAC contractor and I totally agree with everything this guy says, except he did not expand on the topic of service. The higher efficiency you want, greatly reduces the number of HVAC contractors who know how to work on it. High efficiency systems usually require advanced schooling or labs to know how to properly service, troubleshoot, and repair them...experience isn't enough. And most HVAC companies don't have the time to send their technicians to a school to learn how to service them.
My home is 20 years old. Installed a Lennox high efficiency variable speed A/C and furnace last year. Love it! Home is more comfortable in summer and winter. No more hot or cold spots in the home no more constant adjusting the thermostat temperature. Significant lower electric and natural gas usage as well. If you’re looking to get a ROI from any furnace, get a wood 🪵 burning stove.
Great video I have done apartment maintenance for 15 plus years and our older buildings had the 80% units and our new buildings had high efficiency units even the the high efficiency units are newer I work on them 4 times more them the older 80% units.
Always enjoy and learn from your videos..I asked my father-in-law, many years ago if I should replace my furnace with the new hi efficiency or 80%...glad I took his advice that echoes yours. Minnesota misses you more than you miss us. Keep up the great work 👍
Thank you for sharing good sir. Glad to hear your father-in-law had the same advice! Haha and thank you, Minnesota is a wonderful state but I must admit I do enjoy Hawaii more. 😇
Good point, although I am very satisfied with my Lennox G26 High effciency I installed in 1995, on Propane, and never replaced a single part, also the blower motor has been running 24 h/day since installed. and as far as I know most G26 I installed are still going strong. Gaztech.
Just a home owner but I had a guy trying to sell me a 95% furnace to replace the 90% furnace that came with the house when I was walking through the mall. His pitch was $6,800 for the new furnace including installation, taxes and fees. He told me it would save me an average of $200 ever heating season. explained to the salesman that would still take 34 years to recoup the $6,800. Which just doesn't make sense. The other salesman lost the potential customer he almost won over after he overheard my statement. Both salesmen packed up their little stand (didn't event rent a kiosk, just used a four foot folding table with cardboard displays) and left. The guy stormed
@danielkoon1016 Thank you for sharing your experience along with the numbers. Much appreciated! It's good to hear that you immediately noticed how the "savings" didn't make sense.
This is exactly right, I live in Montreal, Canada. All the HVAC companies are pushing high-efficiency, and service contracts. I understand why PROFIT. These direct vent super efficient gas and/or oil furnaces have all kinds of parts and sensors.. (just like new drive by wire cars ) if one sensor is off or one component fails no heat! Also as one furnace repair guy admitted to me, lots of small repairs and house calls at $50 a call, $130 per hour + parts, gives the main install/repair companies and their mandators (companies who pay to be official reps) a huge level of income. I think a combo of gas furnace for really cold winters, some electric baseboard for average cold and a fireplace for power failures, are a great approach to keeping warm.
Thanks for this good advice. I'm on borrowed time with a furnace/AC combo from 1993. Good, tough old Carrier furnaces, but they're getting noisy and corroded. In Houston, furnaces don't get extraordinary use, but in my poorly insulated house, sure is comfortable when you need them.
I bought an 80% efficient furnace 2 years ago online. Had it delivered and did the removal and installation all on my own. Took out a bad goodman 80%, and installed a new 80% furnace. In total I paid $775 bucks. And I am totally satisfied
I live in northern Canada and my Lennox pulse condensing furnace has been heating my house for 37 ( new 1985 ) years without a repair. Winter temperatures reach lower than 45 below and can remain at 30 below for weeks. It can make 5 gallons of flue gas condensate per day in cold weather and heats a large house at a low cost. No complaints on that furnace.
Dam man! You should move down to the balmy Wellington/Dufferin County area. With 'Global Warming' it is almost like Virgina here in the wintertime. I like global warming! You must be way up there Dude God Bless You.
Same goes for hot water tanks, the old standing pilot natural draft tank will never let you down, even when the power goes out. Way cheaper in the long run.
@@ohioplayer-bl9em because the government has their hands in it and feel it necessary to spend their energy budget on raising the efficiency standards. Its the government it’s doesn’t have to make sense. Lol
You're right - no hot water during an outage..plus the electic motor adds to the electric bill + replacement parts offsetting any savings. Plus my area has hard water , so lime builds up at the bottom of the tank, slowly lowering the heating efficiency over time..buying a 20+ year warranted/ stainless steel water heater is pointless- it will get crudded up after 10-12 years ..
I purchased a 95% efficient furnace in 2019. I live in the country and have a mound septic system, that was installed in 2013. This furnace has caused major problems with my water pipes. The furnace drips and causes water to slowly build up and freeze about 16” from the clean out. I live in a colder climate state. I had a 4’ square of my cement driveway re-done so my pipes could be insulated properly. I sure hope this works🤞 Needless to say, it has been very discouraging.
I completely agree with your video. In 2009 80% efficient furnaces were no longer around to be sold in Canada. We have been getting hosed ever since. The next evolution will be to phase all gas-fired furnaces out and replace them with heat pumps. A single stage condensing furnace is the cheapest option in Canada for a furnace repalcemt
Yeah it’s a shame we’re on the same path here in the lower 48 we’re coming to the end of our units with psc blower motors and they’re push hard for the heat pumps.
WOA, you mentioned in another video that you like 2-stage furnaces. For most of us, we can't get a 2-stage furnace without going to a high-efficiency one as well. I enjoyed this video, but I have to take your advice selectively based on what's available from my local installers. Thanks for your videos, they're very to-the-point and easy to digest.
Wow it is good to see how many people agree with you. I have had old furnaces for a long time and they are very easy to repair, then installed a new high efficiency and had nothing but problems since day one. The pressure switch for 1 has been an ongoing issue. Then the inducer motor went. Luckily I installed and fixed these myself or it would have been a lot more expensive. Thanks for the video.
Depending on where you live, a high efficiency furnace might save you a couple hundred $ /year. I have gone over a decade with no issues, this means I might have saved as much as $2k in gas. Easily paying for more than one repair if I had one. I mean heck, they come with 10 year parts and 20 year heat exchanger warranty.
I have been in the HVAC industry steadily since 1973 so have a few years of experience upon which to base an opinion. I do agree with the views in this video but let me add that one of the biggest factors in the lifespan of any furnace is the quality of the duct system. I would say more than half furnace installations are short on airflow! Heat exchangers most often fail due to insufficient airflow. With the correctly sized furnace for the application, properly sized ducting and a quality installation I can envision nearly any furnace of any brand regardless of efficiency lasting more than 20 years. With that said, I am a big fan of high efficiency heat pumps also properly sized, applied and installed. I live in South Dakota, the Black Hills in particular where we can experience a large variation in temperatures from summer to winter. Heat pumps work well here and provide both heating and cooling. I love inverter driven compressors and ECM blower and condenser fan motors. As a fulltime HVAC instructor I really enjoy watching Word of Advice videos. Quality production, wise advice and well communicated. I point my own students to your videos as another learning resource.
1 1/2 winters now(1/2 through this one) i replaced my always problematic 80%. i replaced it with a Goodman 80%, cost $500 new, i put it in myself. i completely agree with what you say. the old one was 80k btu, the new one is 60k and it works just as well
I was in the HVAC business for 45 years. A 92% furnace is just a few hundred dollars more than an 80% and on a new installation can actually be less than an 80% due to rebates and a chimney not being needed. The 95+ variable speed units while providing greater efficiency and comfort are definitely much more expensive and replacing parts can also be costly. Many companies offer a 10 year parts and labor program that along with the additional comfort might be an option but not a money saver over a 92% furnace.
I definitely get your point, but it depends on a lot of things. I normally will install about a 92 percent Goodman, or sometimes an ICP product. With the Goodman I’ve had almost no issues at all and I’ve got some out there that’s been in many years. So far I’ve not had any with an ICP but to be fair I don’t have any out there that’s been in long enough for me to say the same thing. I absolutely agree about some of the fancy bells and whistle ones, but Goodman are pretty straight forward not hard to work on, and I’m not trying to endorse Goodman, lol, I’ve just been a dealer for a long time and that’s what I was selling. Albeit, I’ve been installing Goodman for oh my many years I’ve been doing this since 1988. Anyway, God bless good vidio keep it up.
You could do single stage high eff. to decrease some repair cost. I haven't had much trouble with them. Other reasons to go high eff: gov't kickback (if there is one? LOL), if your heating bill is "high", if you want the "constant circulation" factor [I guess, possibly more comfortable?]. If you like to go green?
I completely agree with your viewpoint on this. And on top of that, the performance and cost-savings claim for the high-efficiency system seem to be over-rated. We recently installed 98% modulatiing furnace and variable-speed air conditioner - both of them top-of-the-line products from Carrier - to replace our 26-years-old system. Right after the installation, we noticed that we were not getting the savings in gas usage that have been promised but didn't think too much of it. Now after close to a year and in winter months, we are not again seeing any benefit at all of our investment (the system was $10K more expensive than the ones from standard grade) and are quite dissatisfied with the performance of supposedly the top-of-the-line products.
You need to tell us if you had an 80 percent before that - remember that a communicating setup alone is very expensive, which has nothing to do with the 98% part. Just the thermostat for a Goodman modulating furnace is $800. You were better off just getting a 95% furnace without the communicating part. And if you have a greenspeed unit, you probably are using the heat pump to a degree since all of them are heat pumps for their variable speed equipment.
@@sprockkets That is true.. Yes we had an 80% system that was 26 years old before. That system was working just fine until cracks developed in the heat exchanger, and we had to replace it. We are in the process of having our modulating system returned for a refund now. Carrier does have a 100% satisfaction guarantee policy in place where they allow homeowners to return the system for a refund within 1 year of installation. We are still waiting for more information from them so we can make the right decision and the process is slow, but we will see how it goes.
One item you forgot to mention. The 90+ has 2 heat exchangers that add pressure drop to the air moving fan. This increases the watts used every time the blower runs. So in the south where you are running AC a lot the 90+ will actually cost you more to run over the year.
I replaced our 40 yo furnace with an 80% payne. It uses a lot less gas than the old one. When it was time to upgrade to this one the heating company salesman told us not to get the high efficiency one, get the 80% . so we did and he was correct. The gas bills are $100 less a month with this one.
I agree with your opinion. The initial cost is higher, you will need to install a new flue if you are not replacing an existing hi-efficiency furnace, and the breakeven point on energy costs is around 6 years compared to an 80% furnace. I just replaced my Goodman natural gas furnace that the builder installed in 2006 with a Trane 80% that was $3000 less that getting a 90% furnace. The breakeven point is beyond the time we want to remain in this house, so it is just not worth the higher cost.
I agree completely I don't work on residential units I work on commercial roof tops units But the more complex the technology the more it will fail and cost to repair
If you have 5 or more months of winter you should go with the high efficiency. If you have 3 months of winter, or more mild winters, go with standard efficiency. Definitely speak with your trusted HVAC company and see what options and prices are best for you and your area!
our 1964 80% efficiency furnace has a handful of parts, and we just replaced the gas valve. We are keeping it. We did the $ analysis on a new furnace - it did not make sense. I oil the motor bearings and fan bearings each fall, when I change the filters. I did replace some old wiring that had failed insulation.
My downstairs furnace is a Rheem 80% that was installed with my house in 1995 and it works great. I take care of it and change the filter regularly. Other than having to clean the flame sensor pretty much every year (thats pretty easy), nothing has gone wrong. My upstairs furnace is a year old and I went with the same 80%. I got that because the crappy Lennox A/C condenser unit went bad (friends don't let friends buy a Lennox), and it was cheaper just to replace both at the same time. The new one is also a Rheem (which is what I would get if you get a new furnace)
my 1999 Lennox air conditioning unit is still running perfectly it is just a 14 seer 2 1/2 ton unit with scroll compressor no variable speeds or anything only maintenance i do is wash unit with a hose once in a while and change air filters but i put in a oversize return air grill for larger filters to get less strain on blower.
@@ranger178 The Lennox units that were built after 2007 are the ones that are bad. They use an aluminum copper coil that is inferior in quality and generally fail inside of 5 years (which is right when the warranty ends on that part), and they are still using the faulty coils even though there was a class action suit against them due to these defective coils.
Lets Calculate: Savings of 95% over 80% for 35 year life of Lennox Pulse. $1000 year spent on Nat Gas with 95% so spent $35k in 35 years. Would need 19% more gas for an 80% (.95/.80=.19). So $35k * 19% = $6,650 saved over 35 years. NOT ONLY is there energy savings, but HIGH quality equipment last twice as long, so saves another $3k to install another one.
@@scpatl4now seems like all appliances are getting worse every decade they make them cheaper and try for planned obsolescence to last a little longer than the warranty even cars are getting worse since 1990s they were not selling enough new ones
As a self- employed HVAC guy I mostly disagree. At least with my pricing with York, the difference between 80% and 95% is only about $800-$1000. So you will get that money back very soon in my region in Utah, even with the default warranty of 5 years. But if registered, the warranty becomes 10 years. York part prices aren’t as expensive as carrier or trane either. Plus my overall repair price is better than most companies anyway. Of course this is all dependent on my company and pricing of course. But that’s mostly my point. I run my business fair and honestly. Addressing the reliability issue, in my experience it has slightly more to do with how well it was installed, but more complexity does play a role. Any well taken care of furnace is capable of lasting more than 15 years in my opinion. Also one huge point I have is if there was a previous furnace that was 90%+ efficient in the house, it makes so much more sense to match the 90%+ when doing a changeout. Otherwise you would have to run a metal flue which can only vent through the roof. Most of the time that’s not even an option to do. The one place I do agree is with anything higher than 95% (according to my prices) they are too expensive for only a few percentage points higher. You won’t ever ROI on those. And modulating furnaces are a nightmare to repair and diagnose. In your favor, 80% totally makes sense with attics, rentals, people who don’t have a way to run pvc flue, or simply people who have a tight budget. I say go for it in those cases. I am also against the tactics some companies use to upsell.
QUESTION: "induction" stoves: lower maintenance due to less parts? (despite the control board). With the new IRA incentives, are induction stoves worth it, or, are they are maintenance nightmare down the road? Thx....D
A lot of your points are more specific to premium brands (which I think are a waste of money). I install Amana, and our basic high efficiency units are only about $400 more than an 80%. We also don't charge anything extra for installation unless it's an upgrade from a 80%, and even then the amount is trivial, a few hundred dollars. The parts example you gave was for a carrier compared to Goodman. Carrier is notorious for charging 3-4x what other companies do for the exact same part. The comparable part for a Modulating Goodman is only about$100 more. Either way you are probably paying mostly for the installation, not the part. Modulating furnaces are also way more efficient, not only because they make heat more efficiently, but because they reduce the temperature delta between the outside air and the heated air. This reduces the amount of heat loss from windows, insulation, etc. Most of our customers who go from a high efficiency, to a Modulating high efficiency save an additional 15%-20% in energy costs. That is on top of the 16%-18% you get from going from 80% to a high efficiency. Modulating furnaces are also much more comfortable, provideing consistent warm heat more similar to radiant systems, compared to 80% units which blast the house with overheated air and constantly cycle on and off.
@@RogerPack Using household air for combustion is actually why I bought the 80% furnace. They average house leaks air like a sieve, so you are burning infiltrated air and sending it up the flue, thus constantly changing the stale air in the house. Often people with tight houses and high efficiency furnaces resort to air exchangers ( more money) to get rid of the stale air and pollutants generated in a tight house.
I installed a high efficiency Amana three years ago. Difference from 80% was less than $1000 including installation and removal of a furnace that was probably 50 years old. It gets cold here. To me it was worth it, as I probably won't live long enough to replace it.
@@vtxnana In a super cold climate, especially with relatively expensive natural gas prices or propane, I would probably do the same. Portland, Oregon, where i live, is fairly mild in winter and gas prices are relatively cheap compared to other places in the U.S.
Thank you Immensely, for this Video. I was completely unaware of the fact that a high efficiency furnace contains two Heat Exchangers. I shall definitely purchase the Standard type furnace, when the time comes to replace our unit. I have subscribed to your Channel. Roland Singh, Canada 🇨🇦
Remember, there may be a hidden cost. When replacing a conventional gas fired furnace you will remove it from a chimney that it shares with a gas fired water heater... thus orphaning the water heater on a flue that is too large to serve only fumes produced by the water heater in winter. The furnace that is now not using the flue use to keep the flue warmed in the winter so the fumes from the water heater will rise up and out. Now you have a situation where you need to do somthing with the gas water heater such as replace it with electric.
I have 2 separate 80% furnace in my home, upstairs and downstairs. I have replaced the parts in both, including the circuit board in one, myself, over the years. I will keep them forever as they are easy to repair and maintain myself, which has and should continue to save money.
I think it makes sense to replace like for like. If you already had a 90+% furnace, reworking the flue to 80% metal venting would be too expensive unless it was a really short run.
My house was built in 1963 and had a 200,000 BTU furnace that started life as oil, converted to propane, then to natural gas when it was available. It had a belt driven blower that we ran constant and was the sound was only noticeable when the house was completely silenced. In 2001 I replaced it with a 90% 100,000 BTU furnace. I sold the house in 2011 and spent more on repairs than I could have ever saved even if the price of gas doubled. The old furnace was 2-2.5 times physically larger and that was the only gain in the trade. The new furnace blower was a direct drive and was very loud and annoying. The furnace was in the basement garage of a solid masonry house. No wood structure including the main floor. The 90% furnace did the job very well and possibly kept up better than the old 200,000 unit in really cold blowing (below zero) weather but at a much greater overall cost. I was told the old furnace was probably only 30-40% efficient if that much so that would explain why the 90% with lower input performed better. I also had installed a new gas water heater at the same time. I replaced the gas valve 3 times because of a flame sensor failure that was built into it and not replaceable. The 4th time I replaced the water heater. That high efficiency water heater cost me $2,200.00. As far as conserving energy? What was the energy cost of manufacturing and shipping the replacement parts and new heater and the energy used by the HVAC shop to perform the work? In a nut shell, there is no dollar, energy, or climate savings anywhere in my experience. Only space saving in the house.
My brother in law lives in a house with a 1992 92% furnace. They can last 30+ years. My house was upgraded to 96% from 80% after 14 years, presumably because it failed. (It also happened 1 year before I bought it, do maybe they upgraded because of realtor advice?) Modulating may be too expensive, but a standard 2 stage 95-96% furnace is only 1000 bucks more than 80%. Probably worth it with a $75-100 a month gas bill...
@valentindecker5264 Thank you for sharing your experience! I agree that the two stage 90%+ furnaces are a good option too, especially if one's gas bills are high.
Here’s my thoughts. I replaced my 80% years ago. Lost an ugly chimney poking out of my roof and gained a pantry in my kitchen from the space the chimney ran thru which doesn’t equate to more money if I sell my house but it might sell quicker. Storage storage storage is key in homes. Also pvc pipe is cheaper than a metal chimney as well. So I’m shopping fir new furnace now. What’s your thoughts on Goodman brand
That's a great point! Storage is golden! Personally I think Goodman is a good brand. It may not be "top of the line" but parts for Goodman units are readily available unlike some of the other premium brands that have more special order parts.
That’s true about the parts. My curry furnace is carrier weather maker 9300ts. It’s been a great furnace although we have a great parts place near by but even they don’t stock a lot of parts that leave you cold in the winter for up to a week and I’ve been told Goodman uses the same parts as many. I would definitely like to get the carrier infinity 98 I think it is but haven’t found a place to sell me one without them insisting they install it. Guess it’s a warranty thing but yeah easy enough thing to install. Thanks on the thumbs up on the Goodman though
Great video! I have a 24 or 25 year old Lennox 80% that is clean and runs like a champ. I've been looking at getting the 96% variable stage unit from them and as much as I love the sound of the technology, I just cannot justify the expense, especially since prices skyrocketed over the past few years.
My advice would be stay away from communicating variable speed. If you want high efficiency & price, you will be perfectly happy with a 90+ 2 stage system and a 16 seer AC. When you do the upgrade, insist on a quality Class 2 surge arrester on the furnace to protect the board and the ECM motor. When the installer puts it in, have them explain the sequence of operation and point out the parts like the igniter and flame sensor to you. Those 2 parts are something every homeowner should have sitting on a shelf next to the furnace and they should understand how to recognize a failure in each component. Good luck with your replacement furnace.
I have a Lennox modulating furnace from 2009 that’s so far needed no repairs(knock on wood) The comfort and quiet of the units is amazing. Probably wouldn’t be able to go back to single or two stage units. That being said, they are more expensive and the energy savings won’t make up for it. I live in an extremely cold climate so having perfect temperature/humidity controls make it worth it for me.
My furnace is 30 years old, and we're planning to replace it b/c the condensor failed a couple of time during the winter. After watching this video, we definitely don't want hight efficiency, but do you recommend 2 stage one?
Personally I would not go with a two stage furnace. Usually the savings are not worth it plus it adds a few more expensive extra components that can fail.
I still think the most bang for the buck is a 2-stage 80% like the 16 year old Bryant I have. It seldom kicks into high unless it's below zero and the only repair so far was replacing the flame rod 3 years ago and at the same time I got an extra hot surface ignitor so if that does go out in the middle of the night in January I can change it in about 15 minutes and go back to bed.
@@Redtooth75 thanks, the sales rep said it’s pointless to get a one stage bc for a couple hundred more you can get the two stage. I just don’t want to deal with stuff breaking down and having to pay 3x for parts
@@GameTrailCameraVideos the parts do not have to be super expensive just because its a 2 stage. As long as the inducer and blower motor are PSC or shaded pole motors they will be the same as a normal furnace, just 2 different heating speeds. The gas valve would be a 2 stage gas valve which is only slightly more than a normal one. If you get ecm motors though those are very expensive and not that reliable.
@@GameTrailCameraVideos they are still produced in new furnaces. 80% and 90% furnaces will use them, its when you want the 95% or higher efficiency that you need ecm motors. So unless your local codes require that level of efficiency you can still get them. Its possible that the dealer you talked to did not have a lower efficiency 2 stage model.
As an hvac tech, I actually do agree with most of this. The repair cost for the customer for standard efficiency furnaces is drastically lower. On average swapping an inducer motor on a standard furnace ends up costing the customer on average $300-$400 all said and done.
Then I've swapped out some very top of the line modulating inducer motors that no joke cost the customer over $2000. You go from buying a simple motor to buying an extremely complicated motor, that has extra components like a transducer and sometimes even needing a board replacement with new harnesses if it's york. Not to mention how much more complicated the troubleshooting process can be. I've taken classes at york for their high end equipment and even in the classes 80% of the troubleshooting involves being on the phone with tech support. With all these variables the chances of a misdiagnoses on a top of the line furnace is higher, which means mistakes happen and the wrong part may get put it at the cost of the customer. All this can be avoided by just having a nice standard 80% furnace.
Also yes, problems with the secondary heat exchanger is always a killer for the unit. It does not take a lot to have them get clogged up especially if the combustion isn't dialed in properly
All furnaces now have high efficiency motors so there’s no choice .
Hi everyone!! I just want to make a disclaimer to clear up possible misunderstandings. I am NOT against high efficiency furnaces. They are nice units! They look great, are efficient and quiet. Are they better than the 80% units? Absolutely. If money is not a concern for you, buy a high efficiency unit. I just don't like the sales pitch that highly overestimates how much money these high efficiency furnaces save. Often the 95% furnace is compared to a 60% furnace to show impressive savings but really they should be comparing it to an 80% furnace. People who are looking to save money should opt for an 80% furnace. Less money upfront, less repair costs, and very likely to last longer. It will heat the house just as good as a high efficiency furnace.
A good layer of spray foam insulation in your attic will save you WAY more money.
In canada it’s illegal to purchase a 80 percent furnace. A furnace only meets its efficiency when it’s extreme cold. We’ve been putting in iflow units that have a real 90 percent efficiency they blow the gas furnaces out of the water and only have 4 parts
@@mrlukenukem88 Canada!, wow that is really cold up there so I believe you.
When I replaced my "VERY tired but still working" 35-year-old furnace at my home, my installer asked my opinion and I said 80%. Less to break and cheaper to fix. And he'd been in the industry for 50 yrs. And he said, "yep".
@@mrlukenukem88 don't you need an actual furnace though. These are just basically heat exchangers they do not actually produce heat without a furnace.
When We purchased our house 19 years ago, it had a 60% furnace. We purchased a Trane 94% AFU, 2 stage, condensing furnace. It paid for itself in 4.5 winters by NG gas savings alone. With cleaning/maintenance every 2 years, it lasted 19 years until we sold the house. It is still working well today. The house is located in upstate NY, so winters are a thing.
My Lennox condensing furnace has been heating my large house in northern Canada for 37 years without a repair.
Oh yeah, there is zero reason to keep any old natural draft furnace in any home. Full 40% of the gas you pay for is right up the chimney.
Ya I have installed a few hundred high efficiency furnaces and I totally do agree with what he has said and most of mine are 20 years old never had to repair any yet except for small parts, also thankless hot water heaters will never go back to tank.
That’s because you purchased that Trane furnace almost 19 years ago. You couldn’t buy a Trane furnace today that would last 19 years. Secondly, 19 years ago you had a PSC blower motor which would last a good 20 years. Today’s Trane condensing furnace contains an ECM motor which has about a four year lifespan and they cost over $1000 to replace. The advice given in the video is advice for people making the purchase now…..not 19 years ago, not 37 years ago….. now.
Well you should service it twice a year spring and fall.
My furnace is now over 50 years old and is still going strong. I've owned the house for 26 years and have spent $0 on furnace maintenance beyond filter cost. Things were made so much better back when CEOs were not focused on planned obsolesce and trimming ever penny from the cost of components.
Nice! curious if you have an outdoor AC unit too? Just wondering if your AC if you have it is running strong too?
@@FALCO797 unfortunately I do not have central AC. I get by with window-mounted air conditioning units.
Got that right, back in in those days things were meant to last forever, not u til the warranty runs out! Lucky u
@@highwind8124 LOL, you must of got screwed on a high efficiency furnace. You don't know his furnace is unsafe but assume so. And yes, a lit candle in a house can also endanger everyone in a home but people still use them.
It's not the CEOs
I agree with a lot of what you said,Jay. As a retired HVAC man I am fortunate enough to have installed my own equipment. Having eliminated the "middle man" by purchasing from the factory. I can honestly say my electric bill was cut in half with the high efficiency & the gas bill is relatively the same after 6+ seasons. I do want to make a statement. In my opinion, it doesn't matter how energy efficient we try to be,we are never going to win because these greedy corporate energy companies are going to charge us more $$$ because of their share holders! 80% or 98+% we can't win! Enjoy your knowledge,Jay.
"we are never going to win because these greedy corporate energy companies are going to charge us more $$$ because of their share holders! "
I own two gas wells on my property, no share holders. I get paid whatever the market rate is. I don't sell for less than the market rate, and i can't sell above it.
What savings you get from using a high efficiency HVAC system is lost to the higher price of the units. You save on the one hand and pay with the other. Companies know this and will always take advantage of it.
@@Rhaspun The math just doesn't add up when the most you're looking at between 80 and 98 is a potential 18 percent reduction during the heating season alone. Saving 36 bucks off a 200 dollar gas bill less than five months a year means you might save 1800 bucks over a decade. Meanwhile, you paid the 4 grand difference in installation and unit cost in year 1. That 4 grand might be 8 grand if you put it in a mutual fund for ten years instead of a furnace.
In 20 years, you might save 5 grand if gas prices doubled a decade later. Meanwhile, your 4 grand would have grown to 16 grand in the mutual fund. If your unit doesn't last 20 years, you're even further in the hole.
@@wisenber are your wells still producing and for how long? Just curious?
@@MK-xl9tt The last survey indicated that I can expect the same yield for at 25 more years. If I used it only for my personal consumption, it's enough for about another 150 years.
I've intentionally limited how much they produce. They pretty much paid for the 20 acres I'm on along with the house I built and my 50X100 shop.
As they near commercial exhaustion, there's still enough to fully run everything on my property as long as I'm alive.
I have a old Bard furnace that is close to 50 years old and working fine, Only cost for over the last 35 years is filter replacements. After listening to you and a couple of others I have decided to keep it for the factors that you mentioned. Thanks for your video.
I do HVAC in Canada and I agree 100%. I see older furnaces lasting 25 years and my boss wants me to convince the customers to have them replaced with ZERO problems. The pitch is that they will save money. How the F do you save money by spending money? The heat exchangers on those old furnaces are 1000 times better. I have seen so many York furnaces have heat exchanger problems after 3-5 years its mind boggling.
My home was built in 1995 and the original Carrier (standard efficiency) furnace is still going strong. And I live in Wisconsin so it gets used on a year-round basis since I also have central air. I'm also still using the original refrigerator and stove with zero problems. They just don't make things like they used to.
The reason is, when a furnace is required to be more efficient (a newer model) the heat exchangers are thinner and don't last as long due to metal fatigue. Older, less efficient furnaces have thicker heat exchangers.
I certainly understand why you have over 400,000 subscribers. Your videos show the most common sense, knowledge, and objectivity of just about any I have seen (on ANY topic). And your presentation organization, style, and pace are excellent. Happy to be a new subscriber and to bookmark you on my own "home resources" log. Thanks so much for doing these. I'll be watching!
You're 100% right older furnaces that had thermocouples blasted 40/50 years and you didn't have condensation tubes leaking into your furnace. It was a hotter heat. I believe my parents were scammed years ago they said it had a small leak crack and ever since then between 8 and 10 years the furnace has to be replaced meanwhile the old one lasted for 40-something years. The old ones worked far better. Thanks for telling the truth.
I am an HVAC, professional 37 years. I completely 100% agree with everything in this video. I feel the same way about high-efficiency air, conditioners and heat pumps with inverters. They are so expensive. They never will pay for themselves. It’s just getting a little too ridiculous and complicated especially in residential. A $3000 repair bill usually hurts most people pretty good.
Me too
Your comment based on 37 years experience along with Jay’s video is all the confirmation I need for my next furnace.
@@Ratlins9 My thoughts exactly
It might be true for many, but generalizing like this is a dangerous way to think. For example, my wife and I moved into a medium sized house in NH with a recently installed 95% propane furnace. What we didn't know was the shape of the house and climate would lead to a propane bill of about $6000 a year. We ended up installing a geothermal system for $25000 which went down to about $18000 after rebates. So far, it uses less than $1000 in electricity (even with the crazy new rates) so we're expecting a payback time of about 3 years. The loan we got costs much less than our monthly propane bill. The maintenance is far less too (about $100 a year for both heating and cooling vs $300 for the furnace plus $100 for the AC). Not to mention it's more comfortable and it makes the air less dry in the winter.
Now this isn't a typical situation, but many in NH have this problem and if we resist change for the sake of resisting, it'll do more hurt then good.
As for the 80% vs HE furnaces debate, there's definitely a good argument there for the 80%. Like everything, it's a numbers game. The trick is knowing what the numbers are and be able to project costs accurately
Lets Calculate: Savings of 95% over 80% for 35 year life of Lennox Pulse. $1000 year spent on Nat Gas with 95% so spent $35k in 35 years. Would need 19% more gas for an 80% (.95/.80=.19). So $35k * 19% = $6,650 saved over 35 years. NOT ONLY is there energy savings, but HIGH quality equipment last twice as long, so saves another $3k to install another one.
This guy really makes a lot of sense. I have been in the business for close to 40 years. If you need to get rid of your money buy a high efficiency and most complicated unit and you will find out. Thank you for sharing great info.
If anyone needs to get rid of their money, I would gladly aid them in that task...lol
I also agree being retired from HVACR Nothing compares to the repair price and the look on the customers face My I add the installation usually Will lead u to the problem 50% of the time especially airflow and maintenance of the secondary drain CHEERS By the way I don’t miss being on call.
Thank you all! It's an honor to hear that veteran techs are of the same opinion. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the matter! Haha Anthony, I am happy for you - that you no longer have to get called out in the middle of the night. 👍👍 That call out notification sound on my phone will be permanently ingrained in my head. 😅
If you want to get rid of your money by wasting gas on a 80%, ill gladly take that money if were all here asking for hand outs 😁
I was told only High Efficiency furnaces available in Toronto Canada.. 🇨🇦. ‘Just replaced Original 2004 Lennox 88,000 BTU @ 92% efficiency natural gas furnace with a 90,000 BTU @ 96% High efficiency Lennox unit due to age in Toronto , Canada $3,900 (CAD) as I already got my money’s worth and don’t want to freeze in cold winter.. Thanks for everyone’s info your channel is very informative .. I think with the new higher efficiency furnace now is oversize for 2,700 sq ft home and cycles much more often which isn’t good for it’s more wear and tear on equipment.. I should’ve downsized to 80,000 BTU instead >> All good 👍 BRAVO! 🇨🇦
Hi. Sharon and Ron here in Alberta Canada. Our flame master furnace was installed in 1976. We bought the house in 1987. Replaced the exchanger in 1987 for total of $75. Have not had any problems
For my house we never had automated heat until about 10 years ago. We had a woodstove only. The reason we went with a high efficiency was due to the pvc venting. I didn't want to add a B vent through the roof or an ugly one on the outside of the house and I did not want to share the chimney with the wood stove. I think the pvc venting is often the only reason people go with a 90+ furnace. I enjoy your videos man.
Thank you for sharing! I agree 100%. I’m an HVAC and plumbing tech. I say the exact same thing about high efficiency on demand water heaters. I only offer to install an IBC on demand water heater because they only have 5 components compared to 42 (on average).
Couldnt agree more. I am a self employed plumber gasfitter here in canada but I cant buy mid efficients here so I tell people to stick with their standard or mid efficient furnaces. The high efficient furnaces are very expensive to repair and have a new variety of problems like vent pipes freezing off or acidic condensate rotting out cast iron drains. I have two 1974 inter city furnaces in my place and they are built to be bulletproof and when properly tuned up you can hit nearly 80% efficiency with them. Parts are readily available and break downs are few and far between.
35 years in the business. You are straight to the point that exactly what I tell my customers
You sir definitely know what you're talking about! That's why I'm still keeping my 80% 51 years old Miller furnace in my house! Well said!
Great, thanks. My gas furnace from around 1960 still works great. Had to have the blower (forced air) replaced around 1984. The one thing I'd advise for old furnace would be to replace the pilot light setup with electronic. No need to turn it off in summer (if you do that) and relight, etc. and no wasted gas for the pilot itself even in winter.
Great advice. My new house has a high efficiency Carrier unit that's 20 years old (previous owner had new heat exchanger installed) and of course the thing takes a crap in a cold snap (10-15 degrees) over Thanksgiving when family are flying in. and of course because it's 20 yrs old and also a proprietary unit, parts are not readily available and need to be ordered from out of state. That board with labor cost me $950. Then over Christmas, it goes out again. The guy doesn't answer his phone, but I has a little schooling in HVAC and watched your videos, read the fault codes and found that my condensate box was plugged. easy fix after draining almost a gallon of water out and cleaning the box. They want $7200 to replace the furnace with a Trane unit. He said he can save me 1k if we go with the Goodman, but it's a little louder. My problem is that I don't have a chimney, so I don't know if I can go to an 80% furnace.
Thanks for your honesty. It makes sense . My Bryant 80% is 23 years old . Never a problem. I’ll get parts to a point if it fails.
Extremely surprised you’ve never replaced the inducer on that, those things chew through inducers faster than any other brand
@@timrob0420
Never replaced anything. I live by San Francisco, so no extreme weather so far . I have cleaned the burners last year , and they weren’t very dirty either. I would take that brand again cause it’s my own experience. Thanks for your comment.
OMG, yes. We had done without an old screen door at the rear of our house (which happens to be the main entrance). We just happened to run into an old aluminun one at a yard sale a few weeks ago. Luckily it had the frame pieces, which has been one delay in me (@ 70) replacing it. We paid 5.00 for it, I got it going and a young man helped finish hanging the frame. I bought some new cedar trim and bottom 2X4 to support and YAY...we noticed the difference immediately. Our house is 10 times more warm. It is raining and 40 outside, but cozy without the heat on. I caulked all of the window frames too and that helped. Now to get at the old floor furnace and get it cleaned and going. Small things help a lot...Don't forget those heavy curtains.
Great advice from a retired gas fitter. I've replaced my furnace twice in the last 30 years, both times with an 80% model.
We just purchased a new high quality manufactured home, 2X6 walls, R-30 ceiling, R-19 exterior wall insulation, R-11 floors insulation, dual thermal pane winds and 1/2" interior drywall. I was disappointed at first it only had a 80% efficiency furnace, we live in SE Michigan, our condo we sold had an 96% efficiency furnace, the home square footage is roughly the same, believe it or not our natural gas bills are nearly the same. Thanks for this video.
As someone in the HVAC trade since 1992, you are on point with just about everything. Here are some points not mentioned in your video; Some homeowners MUST only use 90% or higher AFUE furnaces due to existing flue conditions. Installing a B-Vent metal flue (which a 80% furnace uses) in an existing two or three story home, could be very invasive and costly, so you may be forced to go 90%. I would also mention dual fuel, which is replacing the A/C unit with a heat pump that only uses the gas on the coldest days. There is currently a $2000 tax credit (not a deduction) when homeowners install qualifying heat pumps. I have seen furnaces last much longer in that application as their usage is lower. Lastly, in all the years working in this industry, every regulation like the efficiency of furnaces or the type of refrigerant used, started as a DOE suggestion, so I would not be surprised if that 90% regulation comes to fruition in January 2029. There are many local municipalities that have already implemented and most manufacturer's are anticipating it. Thanks for the good video.
I was looking at a new one right now. I love your comment. I'm gonna end up cleaning my old one out and just tuned it up good. Thank you new york
30 years in the industry and I completely agree with everything you said. You are very knowledgeable on residential equipment. My main reason for selling high efficiency furnaces is no chimney or eliminating an old chimney with no liner. Unfortunately the government sets the efficiency standards and all furnaces are now going to require ecm blower motors which are more problematic and ridiculously more expensive. It such a racket. I sell my customers on reliability and they thankful for the honesty.
I personally go for the high efficiency just because the venting is much easier to manage being pvc, HOWEVER, past that give me single stage valve, single speed blower, nothing fancy
@@nicholashaines4136 110% wrong on multi-speed fans and gas valves. In fact, I'd recommend upgrading past the dollar tree single stage or multistage fan motors and going with an ECM motor. Extremely quiet, way more efficient, and will 3-4 times longer.
Psc motors are on there way out ecm is the new industry standard they are quieter, more efficient, and better modulation of air flow all good points. I personally haven’t noticed them to last longer than multiple speed motors actually the opposite and 3 to 4 times the cost to replace this would be the down side. Government sets the industry efficiency standards so good or bad its what we’ll be installing.
@@MK-xl9tt 100% ECM last longer due on start up that dont get 100% power all at once blasted at them. Instead ECM very slowly ramps up the power = less wear on motor and duct popping.
I know what you mean… the last standard furnace I sold to my surprise had an ECM motor! And the dip switch settings were so small to read I couldn’t tell what my CFM’s were set for!!!! I ended up jus starting ac up & adjusting best I could! Fortunately the airflow for heat & cool was pre-adjusted correctly! I hate when they make a simpler thing more complicated! “If it ain’t broke don’t try to fix it better!”
I will soon be coming up on my 30th year in HVAC. I totaly agree with you .
It means a lot coming from a veteran tech, thank you!!
In 2006 the installer gave me the option of installing a high efficiency 90+ or an 80+ efficiency furnace, I opted for the 80+ Goodman. Over the years I have had to replace a flame sensor, draft induced motor and a run capacitor for the furnace motor. I also replaced the run capacitor for the AC condenser. All parts were readily available on Amazon and were very ease to diagnosis with a multi meter and install. Very glad I got the 80+ and not the 90+. I totally agree with you, great videos appreciate it. The furnace is running great at 17 years old.
Thanks for supporting the monopoly that is Jeff Bezos
When I worked for a contractor, we would charge are diagnosis and sell a A/C compressor capacitor for about $75, and about .5 hour labor for a total cost about $187. Your amazon capacitor is only about $20, so a great job saving money!
I think a big factor is the region I live in. In a cold region where you'll be requiring heavy amounts of energy a high efficiency furnace is probably worth it and my state offers rebates to even the cost with a low eff unit. I could see this being true in Southern states where heat demand is low but I believe it's worth it in the north.
Insulate your house better then
I bought my house in 2012. We had a great working furnace. Then the next winter was coldest in history. I went thru 800 dollars of propane in 5 weeks. My house was built in 1980. It is fairly well insulated. I bought the high efficiency and it paid for itself in less than 5 years. I agree with you in most of all u say. In northwest Ohio it gets cold. I am happy with mine so far
Exactly.
Agreed! My parent's gas furnace works flawlessly over 50 years now.
I miss the old days. I started in 1985 and with the truck with a decent amount of truck stock. Nothing too crazy I could repair just about every furnace out there. Now forget that because of all the different parts. When it comes time to replace it, just put an 80% furnace in. The thing I have to warn you of though is the government right now especially with the Democrats in charge of the Fed want to make a minimum for efficiency 90%. So if your parents are thinking about replacing the furnace soon they should do it before any new regulations, and they will have to get a condensating furnace. Those old furnaces are tanks, but they won’t last forever.
@@benkuxhouse787 I wonder how you feel about old cars and old refrigerators and furniture and old computers. If you believe older is better you are delusional. The fact is, the improvements ARE better. The problem is people like you who are not capable of learning something new and use rubber bands and gum to keep crap running longer, but endangering people.
After retiring I wanted the best, installed 98% and 21 SEER. As natural gas price doubled, I really don't notice it, in the summer I can run my A/C during demand response utility increases and don't notice that either. I paid upfront to avoid concerns over my utility bills and so far am very happy with my choice. My equipment has a ten year warranty and lifetime heat exchanger. Hope I live that long! Thanks for your video!
My opinion also
What brand offers you a Lifetime on the heat exchanger?
Just so you know SEER is a made up number
@@brightonmusic Amana has a lifetime heat exchanger warranty. Not sure if it's for their entire lineup or select models.
You should have installed a heatpump. Absolutely nothing is cheaper heating. A 21 seer heatpump only increase the heating efficiency less than 2 on the hpsf over a 15 seer. You need to get the gas furnace taken completely apart every 2 or 3 years because the secondary heat exchanger gets lint built up like an evaporator and will melt the AC coil due to the heat rise due to the lower airflow. I charge $800 to $1500 to clean one. The inverter board is $2,500 if it fails. The parts aren't universally stocked meaning you might be left without heat or ac for a month or more waiting on the warranty parts. These aren't very popular and parts are way too expensive for the distributor to have sitting around. Virtually everything is special ordered. I've replaced around 5 condenser boards in the past 3 weeks in some inverter heatpumps because we had rolling blackouts that killed them. An out of warranty blower motor is about $1000 vs $225 for a 15 seer. The condenser motor is around $300 to 500 higher. The internal board is about $600 vs $50. The expansion valves fail quite often on the 18 plus seer. Costs $600 to replace labor, possibly $1000 more for freon (freon isn't covered under warranty) depends on the factory requirements, $400 if the expansion valve is out of warranty. You better get rid of it in ten years.. seriously. Oh yeah, some factories requires the warranty part sent back before they'll replace it on those high end units. I've been doing this work since 1988. Own a HVAC company for 21 years.
I have been doing hvac-r for 25 years, and I agree with you.
I’ve been in the HVAC business over 20 years as a lead installer and I agree with what he said.
Same goes for those condensers with higher seer, the basic ones have much cheaper and less parts that can go wrong and can cool your house efficiently as long as it’s well sized.
Lets Calculate: Savings of 95% over 80% for 35 year life of Lennox Pulse. $1000 year spent on Nat Gas with 95% so spent $35k in 35 years. Would need 19% more gas for an 80% (.95/.80=.19). So $35k * 19% = $6,650 saved over 35 years. NOT ONLY is there energy savings, but HIGH quality equipment last twice as long, so saves another $3k to install another one.
@@pablopicaro7649 35 years!? LOL , it won’t make 10, plus all the very pricey parts that you need to replace along the way, even if you are a great tech like me you still have to pay for the parts.
I installed them since new, saw them along the way and at the end of their life. I’m talking about any brand.
Real field experience here. ✌🏼
Which model would you recommend?
@@JohnHVACR , I wish I didn’t have to agree with you but I do. The equipment over the past 10 or 15 years has been going downhill at a steady pace (leaking evaporators , plugged secondary heat exchangers, ECM motors lasting three years, problematic TXVs and now we’re abandoning 410 A). As far as the pulse furnace ,they started losing their luster when the recall came out on their heat exchangers manufactured between 1982 -1989 and stop manufacturing the pulse furnace completely over two decades ago. Lennox did stand behind their problems but they were problems nonetheless.
@JohnHVACR Thank you for sharing you knowledge and experience John!! Much appreciated!
This is great advice. A couple of years ago, I got the basic one. My son-in-law didn’t listen to me & bought the ‘better’ one. He has had several problems already.
I installed a Goodman high efficiency furnace 2 years ago. Why Goodman? Practically every other furnace can only be purchased through an installer and that means you have to pay someone to install it. When I was trying to decide which Goodman furnace to install, I discovered two things. 1. Like all furnace manufacturers, Goodman offers a standard 80% furnace and then they offer several efficient furnaces starting at 96% and going up at small increments like 97%, 98%. Each of these small increments cost plenty as they claim you'll be more comfortable if the furnace evens out the heat by fluctuating the gas supply or fluctuating the fan speed. This might be true, but I can tell you that no one in my family has ever complained about the heat not being even as our standard furnace turns on and off. Most people don't even notice when it turns on and off. Further, I consider these features to be more reasons for the furnace to fail in the future requiring hundreds of dollars to fix. 2. The initial purchase rebates available vary from state to state, but in Minnesota, I discovered that the rebates actually make it more expensive to purchase the 80% rather than the 96% so that's what I bought. The simplest high efficiency furnace. It doesn't turn down the burners and it doesn't vary the fan speed but who cares?
Good Thinking
@frankhoward7645 Thank you for sharing your insights and experience! I appreciate you explaining the reasons behind your decision making. I am sure many will find this helpful.
I agree. An installer put a high efficiency in my attic. 2 times I have had the condensate line freeze and cause leaks that damaged my ceiling. So now I am in my attic installing heat tape and better insulation on the condensate line to prevent this in the future. When the heat tape comes on (below 37), it will be consuming around 200W of electricity. So that likely wipes out any energy savings on gas.
Agree, I have a mid 1980's American Standard Furnace and A/C unit. 2 HVAC guys came out and said they are still very worth repairing over replacing them are very efficient for my 930 sqft Bungalow in the Northeast.
You do make very valid points. I use to think exactly like you and pushed hard for customers to buy 80%ers
As I got older and went to more training and schools I learned that all the reasons I hated 90%ers had to do with three reasons. One oversized furnace for either the load of the home or undersized ductwork for the home. Two, installed wrong. Bad venting practices bad draining practices. And lastly, not blowing out condensation traps yearly.
I’ve seen 30 year old 90’s in the wild still rocking and rolling because the insulation was done exactly the way the manufacturer intended.
Having said that a 90 installed wrong will absolutely fail way sooner than a poorly installed 80.
I have a 1983 Sear's furnace and AC unit. In the last 12 year's I had it cleaned and serviced twice. I change the filter regularly. It's an old 80% efficient model furnace.
The tech that cleaned it last said we should get a newer, more efficient model, but I asked him, can I get one that will last half as long as our old one? He said no. Maybe 7-10 year's. It's just not worth it to me.
Thanks I have to agree...My Payne furnace is 57 years old...I'm going to buy a 80% only because I'm going to install it up in the attic and free up some space in my small house... in SoCal I only run it for three months...heck I don't even need a furnace or AC here by the beach.
We just had a new 80,000Btu 96% efficient 2 stage furnace put in last August. To me, it's not all about saving money. The builder put a furnace that was almost twice as big as needed. That was 1988. It was an 80% 150,000 Btu unit. What is really important is comfort. With an oversized unit, it is never on. That means you freeze when it isn't really that cold out which is most of the time you need it. And it is impossible to get performance out of a humidifier when the furnace never runs. I think if you are in an area that gets down to 0 degrees Fahrenheit once in awhile, a little more expense for a two stage is well worth it for the days when it is 40-50 outside. If it cost $4,500 and lasts 15 years, that is only $300 a year. i pay 10 times that for the families cell phones. So far my gas costs have been 20-25% cheaper this winter.
Wow thank you. This channel is very helpful to me. I was considered high efficiency but just now give up. Because simple enginering is better solution. Especially at winter time we cannot find good engineer right on time thats problem my experience.
Thank you. Thank you.
As a retired HVAC technician I agree with your comments, however living in Canada, high efficiency is your only option if you need a furnace, as mid efficiency furnaces were discontinued in 2010 😢
They pretty much are here too. I don't think they can be bought.
My Day & Night gas furnace is from 1977. It still works. I've had 3 hvac technicians to my house because I wanted to just clean and check it, but all 3 said it's not worth the risk to clean it because it's so old and it might risk something breaking. They all recommended replacing with a new standard 80% gas furnace because next year in california they won't be able to install a 80% gas furnace. I'm not sure what to do. We use the heater from nov to march. It gets into the 30s at night in winter.
I couldn't agree more and wish I had seen this video in 2005 before I built a new house and before I had to replace that unit in under 10 years and did so with another high efficiency unit which has given me more issues than any previous 80% furnaces I owned.
Unfortunately in Canada we don’t have a choice now, can’t even get your hands on a mid efficient new furnace. But can still repair mids as well as even replace the heat exchangers. I’m still hanging onto my sturdy %80 2007 Lennox
Well explained in a simple language. High efficiency is a no go area . Parts and Technicians will milk you dry
Excellent warning video. Yes efficiency is expensive. Remember my new a/c installed in summer of 2020? It has a ecm circulator motor. It’s very efficient. But it was replaced a few months ago. It was still warranted by manufacturer, but installation was $800. Just an example of new technology.
It shouldn't cost you $800 to install that motor, that's a rip off. At most $300 for around 2.5 hrs labor.
@@sprockkets I think the $800 was the total cost, surely it was, or he did get ripped.
Great advice! You really nailed it. My Dad bought a high eff. furnace and only used it four years because the cost of repair parts was breaking him. If you have an old fashioned, standard furnace, it is gold.
Absolutely one of the very best UA-cam's that I have ever watched and it 83 I don't have much time to waste. To sum it up in two words is common sense. Thanks so much.
Totally agree with all your points about high efficiency furnaces. Currently have a Trane 80% natural gas furnace that is 20 years old and still running good. Has the original ECM fan motor and only replacement parts are the hot surface igniter and flame sensor. I changed those out just as preventative maintenance items. I have heard from a few other UA-cam people that 2028 is what they are hearing regarding end of 80% furnaces. But never heard what their source of information was.
I got approx 26 yrs out of 80%Trane installed 1992. Replaced before breakdown because I got a few unexplained error codes Fall/Winter 1991. The HVAC guys could not find what triggered the code. Nor could they repeat it. So to be safe I bought a new 80% about 3 yrs ago. No issues other than Nat Gas costing so much more now. Heating bills during winter are $40 to $50 more a month now.
Lets Calculate: Savings of 95% over 80% for 35 year life of Lennox Pulse. $1000 year spent on Nat Gas with 95% so spent $35k in 35 years. Would need 19% more gas for an 80% (.95/.80=.19). So $35k * 19% = $6,650 saved over 35 years. NOT ONLY is there energy savings, but HIGH quality equipment last twice as long, so saves another $3k to install another one.
@@pablopicaro7649 😂you must be a salesman
If its a 80% when new, its loses efficiency the older it gets. So in reality, you actually have a 65-70% finance now after 20 years.
@@terrorballz quirky problems like that is usually a bad circuit board ($300), very easy to do yourself
This man is being totally up front and honest ! go with the 80% for parts availability and cost when you do need them . Most contractors try to push the high efficiency units and charge a lot more. not cool
I agree. Company I work for is new construction and I’m having to service the 90’s a lot. There’s also things like builders go for aesthetic and cheap duct design but a lot of internal leaking, failing pressure switches, P Traps in attic flus which is bad install but still an additional thing to worry about
Probably a LOT of people forget to change the filter, Ive seen plenty of HVAC service videos showing the tech going to the customer's house for a no heat, and they check the filter and man oh man!! one I remember was BLACK, it had so much lint, dust and crap built up on it it was probably never changed and that's a big killer of heat exchangers and every other part in the furnace due to bad airflow
My niece has a 1965 78% furnace installed by the builder! Just keeps running! No inducer motor, no glow coil, just a pilot.
I worked on a 1929 home with a Bryant gravity furnace, and the casting said Bryant Beverly Hills California. The furnace was located in Long Beach CA. Remember back in 1925, Beverly Hills was a farming community.
Back in 2009, I replaced a indoor fan motor on a Singer high efficiency packaged unit, and the motor cost was over $600, so the customer paid over $850. A normal unit would only cost about $200 or so.
When I installed a air conditioner for my sister, I wish I had put in a heat pump. It would use a lot less expensive electricity most of the year to heat her home, not the expensive natural gas. My brother uses propane out in the country, and I might recommend installing a heat pump in his home, once the A/C fails, maybe sooner?
To get 100,000 Btu's of heat, you could run a heat pump for about 5 to 8 KW, or run a electric heater using 23 KW, or burn about 1.1 gallons of propane in high efficiency furnace or 1.2 gallons in a 80% model. Usually the 8 KW heat pump is the least expensive mode! A gallon of heating oil is the very most expensive way to heat a home these days!
I have been telling everyone this forever. I am an hvac tech going on 27 years. I have never seen a high efficiency unit go more than 5 years without a problem and condensing heat exchangers always clog up the drains and heat exchanger itself-I personally would not own one yet. I just replaced my whole system and installed an 80 per enter.
Come on over and you’ll see your first one
I am sure it happens but it is very rare-I don’t like the odds.
I'm an HVAC contractor and I totally agree with everything this guy says, except he did not expand on the topic of service. The higher efficiency you want, greatly reduces the number of HVAC contractors who know how to work on it. High efficiency systems usually require advanced schooling or labs to know how to properly service, troubleshoot, and repair them...experience isn't enough. And most HVAC companies don't have the time to send their technicians to a school to learn how to service them.
This is so true in today’s industry
My home is 20 years old. Installed a Lennox high efficiency variable speed A/C and furnace last year. Love it! Home is more comfortable in summer and winter. No more hot or cold spots in the home no more constant adjusting the thermostat temperature. Significant lower electric and natural gas usage as well. If you’re looking to get a ROI from any furnace, get a wood 🪵 burning stove.
I’ve been looking for a 90% efficiency wood burning fireplace insert. But these prices for the inserts are highway robbery with a date rape combined.
Love the high efficiency furnance.. I can tell big difference with no more temperature spikes. The temperature is always constant.
Great video I have done apartment maintenance for 15 plus years and our older buildings had the 80% units and our new buildings had high efficiency units even the the high efficiency units are newer I work on them 4 times more them the older 80% units.
Always enjoy and learn from your videos..I asked my father-in-law, many years ago if I should replace my furnace with the new hi efficiency or 80%...glad I took his advice that echoes yours.
Minnesota misses you more than you miss us. Keep up the great work 👍
Thank you for sharing good sir. Glad to hear your father-in-law had the same advice! Haha and thank you, Minnesota is a wonderful state but I must admit I do enjoy Hawaii more. 😇
That would a colossal mistake to not get a 95% in MN. Within 3 years easlily the cost would be made up in energy savings
@@WordofAdviceTV So What Brand name of Heating Furnace Or A/C brand name is to Buy❓❓
Good point, although I am very satisfied with my Lennox G26 High effciency I installed in 1995, on Propane, and never replaced a single part, also the blower motor has been running 24 h/day since installed. and as far as I know most G26 I installed are still going strong.
Gaztech.
Just a home owner but I had a guy trying to sell me a 95% furnace to replace the 90% furnace that came with the house when I was walking through the mall. His pitch was $6,800 for the new furnace including installation, taxes and fees. He told me it would save me an average of $200 ever heating season.
explained to the salesman that would still take 34 years to recoup the $6,800. Which just doesn't make sense.
The other salesman lost the potential customer he almost won over after he overheard my statement. Both salesmen packed up their little stand (didn't event rent a kiosk, just used a four foot folding table with cardboard displays) and left.
The guy stormed
@danielkoon1016 Thank you for sharing your experience along with the numbers. Much appreciated! It's good to hear that you immediately noticed how the "savings" didn't make sense.
This is exactly right, I live in Montreal, Canada. All the HVAC companies are pushing high-efficiency, and service contracts. I understand why PROFIT.
These direct vent super efficient gas and/or oil furnaces have all kinds of parts and sensors.. (just like new drive by wire cars ) if one sensor is off or one component fails no heat! Also as one furnace repair guy admitted to me, lots of small repairs and house calls at $50 a call, $130 per hour + parts, gives the main install/repair companies and their mandators (companies who pay to be official reps) a huge level of income. I think a combo of gas furnace for really cold winters, some electric baseboard for average cold and a fireplace for power failures, are a great approach to keeping warm.
Thanks for this good advice. I'm on borrowed time with a furnace/AC combo from 1993. Good, tough old Carrier furnaces, but they're getting noisy and corroded. In Houston, furnaces don't get extraordinary use, but in my poorly insulated house, sure is comfortable when you need them.
In Texas no one should install a 95% furnace. It's for us who live up north.
I bought an 80% efficient furnace 2 years ago online. Had it delivered and did the removal and installation all on my own. Took out a bad goodman 80%, and installed a new 80% furnace. In total I paid $775 bucks. And I am totally satisfied
Adjusting the gas valve settings is where I stop. I’m not a guru at it.
@@Kiddro22 honestly that was the easiest part.
I live in northern Canada and my Lennox pulse condensing furnace has been heating my house for 37 ( new 1985 ) years without a repair. Winter temperatures reach lower than 45 below and can remain at 30 below for weeks. It can make 5 gallons of flue gas condensate per day in cold weather and heats a large house at a low cost. No complaints on that furnace.
Dam man!
You should move down to the balmy Wellington/Dufferin County area. With 'Global Warming' it is almost like Virgina here in the wintertime. I like global warming!
You must be way up there Dude
God Bless You.
Same goes for hot water tanks, the old standing pilot natural draft tank will never let you down, even when the power goes out. Way cheaper in the long run.
I just replaced my water heater with the type. Why make things more complicated? Life is hard enough.
@@ohioplayer-bl9em because the government has their hands in it and feel it necessary to spend their energy budget on raising the efficiency standards. Its the government it’s doesn’t have to make sense. Lol
You're right - no hot water during an outage..plus the electic motor adds to the electric bill + replacement parts offsetting any savings.
Plus my area has hard water , so lime builds up at the bottom of the tank, slowly lowering the heating efficiency over time..buying a 20+ year warranted/ stainless steel water heater is pointless- it will get crudded up after 10-12 years ..
I purchased a 95% efficient furnace in 2019. I live in the country and have a mound septic system, that was installed in 2013. This furnace has caused major problems with my water pipes. The furnace drips and causes water to slowly build up and freeze about 16” from the clean out. I live in a colder climate state. I had a 4’ square of my cement driveway re-done so my pipes could be insulated properly. I sure hope this works🤞 Needless to say, it has been very discouraging.
I completely agree with your video. In 2009 80% efficient furnaces were no longer around to be sold in Canada.
We have been getting hosed ever since. The next evolution will be to phase all gas-fired furnaces out and replace them with heat pumps.
A single stage condensing furnace is the cheapest option in Canada for a furnace repalcemt
I still don't know how they will phase out gas since heat pumps don't really work beyond -20C. Maybe Trudeau knows! Lol
Yeah it’s a shame we’re on the same path here in the lower 48 we’re coming to the end of our units with psc blower motors and they’re push hard for the heat pumps.
WOA, you mentioned in another video that you like 2-stage furnaces. For most of us, we can't get a 2-stage furnace without going to a high-efficiency one as well. I enjoyed this video, but I have to take your advice selectively based on what's available from my local installers. Thanks for your videos, they're very to-the-point and easy to digest.
Wow it is good to see how many people agree with you. I have had old furnaces for a long time and they are very easy to repair, then installed a new high efficiency and had nothing but problems since day one. The pressure switch for 1 has been an ongoing issue. Then the inducer motor went. Luckily I installed and fixed these myself or it would have been a lot more expensive. Thanks for the video.
Depending on where you live, a high efficiency furnace might save you a couple hundred $ /year. I have gone over a decade with no issues, this means I might have saved as much as $2k in gas.
Easily paying for more than one repair if I had one.
I mean heck, they come with 10 year parts and 20 year heat exchanger warranty.
I have been in the HVAC industry steadily since 1973 so have a few years of experience upon which to base an opinion. I do agree with the views in this video but let me add that one of the biggest factors in the lifespan of any furnace is the quality of the duct system. I would say more than half furnace installations are short on airflow! Heat exchangers most often fail due to insufficient airflow. With the correctly sized furnace for the application, properly sized ducting and a quality installation I can envision nearly any furnace of any brand regardless of efficiency lasting more than 20 years.
With that said, I am a big fan of high efficiency heat pumps also properly sized, applied and installed. I live in South Dakota, the Black Hills in particular where we can experience a large variation in temperatures from summer to winter. Heat pumps work well here and provide both heating and cooling. I love inverter driven compressors and ECM blower and condenser fan motors.
As a fulltime HVAC instructor I really enjoy watching Word of Advice videos. Quality production, wise advice and well communicated. I point my own students to your videos as another learning resource.
1 1/2 winters now(1/2 through this one) i replaced my always problematic 80%. i replaced it with a Goodman 80%, cost $500 new, i put it in myself. i completely agree with what you say. the old one was 80k btu, the new one is 60k and it works just as well
I was in the HVAC business for 45 years. A 92% furnace is just a few hundred dollars more than an 80% and on a new installation can actually be less than an 80% due to rebates and a chimney not being needed. The 95+ variable speed units while providing greater efficiency and comfort are definitely much more expensive and replacing parts can also be costly. Many companies offer a 10 year parts and labor program that along with the additional comfort might be an option but not a money saver over a 92% furnace.
I definitely get your point, but it depends on a lot of things. I normally will install about a 92 percent Goodman, or sometimes an ICP product. With the Goodman I’ve had almost no issues at all and I’ve got some out there that’s been in many years. So far I’ve not had any with an ICP but to be fair I don’t have any out there that’s been in long enough for me to say the same thing. I absolutely agree about some of the fancy bells and whistle ones, but Goodman are pretty straight forward not hard to work on, and I’m not trying to endorse Goodman, lol, I’ve just been a dealer for a long time and that’s what I was selling. Albeit, I’ve been installing Goodman for oh my many years I’ve been doing this since 1988. Anyway, God bless good vidio keep it up.
Dont buy Goodman, its not even American owned.
You could do single stage high eff. to decrease some repair cost. I haven't had much trouble with them. Other reasons to go high eff: gov't kickback (if there is one? LOL), if your heating bill is "high", if you want the "constant circulation" factor [I guess, possibly more comfortable?]. If you like to go green?
I completely agree with your viewpoint on this. And on top of that, the performance and cost-savings claim for the high-efficiency system seem to be over-rated. We recently installed 98% modulatiing furnace and variable-speed air conditioner - both of them top-of-the-line products from Carrier - to replace our 26-years-old system. Right after the installation, we noticed that we were not getting the savings in gas usage that have been promised but didn't think too much of it. Now after close to a year and in winter months, we are not again seeing any benefit at all of our investment (the system was $10K more expensive than the ones from standard grade) and are quite dissatisfied with the performance of supposedly the top-of-the-line products.
You need to tell us if you had an 80 percent before that - remember that a communicating setup alone is very expensive, which has nothing to do with the 98% part. Just the thermostat for a Goodman modulating furnace is $800.
You were better off just getting a 95% furnace without the communicating part. And if you have a greenspeed unit, you probably are using the heat pump to a degree since all of them are heat pumps for their variable speed equipment.
@@sprockkets That is true.. Yes we had an 80% system that was 26 years old before. That system was working just fine until cracks developed in the heat exchanger, and we had to replace it. We are in the process of having our modulating system returned for a refund now. Carrier does have a 100% satisfaction guarantee policy in place where they allow homeowners to return the system for a refund within 1 year of installation. We are still waiting for more information from them so we can make the right decision and the process is slow, but we will see how it goes.
One item you forgot to mention. The 90+ has 2 heat exchangers that add pressure drop to the air moving fan. This increases the watts used every time the blower runs. So in the south where you are running AC a lot the 90+ will actually cost you more to run over the year.
I replaced our 40 yo furnace with an 80% payne. It uses a lot less gas than the old one. When it was time to upgrade to this one the heating company salesman told us not to get the high efficiency one, get the 80% . so we did and he was correct. The gas bills are $100 less a month with this one.
I agree with your opinion. The initial cost is higher, you will need to install a new flue if you are not replacing an existing hi-efficiency furnace, and the breakeven point on energy costs is around 6 years compared to an 80% furnace. I just replaced my Goodman natural gas furnace that the builder installed in 2006 with a Trane 80% that was $3000 less that getting a 90% furnace. The breakeven point is beyond the time we want to remain in this house, so it is just not worth the higher cost.
I agree completely
I don't work on residential units I work on commercial roof tops units
But the more complex the technology the more it will fail and cost to repair
Normally, I wouldn't take furnace advise from someone living in Hawaii, but knowing you had lived in Minnesota, makes all the difference.
If you have 5 or more months of winter you should go with the high efficiency. If you have 3 months of winter, or more mild winters, go with standard efficiency. Definitely speak with your trusted HVAC company and see what options and prices are best for you and your area!
The key phrase….”speak with your TRUSTED hvac company”….
our 1964 80% efficiency furnace has a handful of parts, and we just replaced the gas valve. We are keeping it. We did the $ analysis on a new furnace - it did not make sense. I oil the motor bearings and fan bearings each fall, when I change the filters. I did replace some old wiring that had failed insulation.
Sorry to tell you. Your 1964 furnace is not 80%. Lucky if it's 60
My downstairs furnace is a Rheem 80% that was installed with my house in 1995 and it works great. I take care of it and change the filter regularly. Other than having to clean the flame sensor pretty much every year (thats pretty easy), nothing has gone wrong. My upstairs furnace is a year old and I went with the same 80%. I got that because the crappy Lennox A/C condenser unit went bad (friends don't let friends buy a Lennox), and it was cheaper just to replace both at the same time. The new one is also a Rheem (which is what I would get if you get a new furnace)
my 1999 Lennox air conditioning unit is still running perfectly it is just a 14 seer 2 1/2 ton unit with scroll compressor no variable speeds or anything only maintenance i do is wash unit with a hose once in a while and change air filters but i put in a oversize return air grill for larger filters to get less strain on blower.
@@ranger178 The Lennox units that were built after 2007 are the ones that are bad. They use an aluminum copper coil that is inferior in quality and generally fail inside of 5 years (which is right when the warranty ends on that part), and they are still using the faulty coils even though there was a class action suit against them due to these defective coils.
Never a problem with my 80%Rheem.......... any minor problems, easy and fast fix.
Lets Calculate: Savings of 95% over 80% for 35 year life of Lennox Pulse. $1000 year spent on Nat Gas with 95% so spent $35k in 35 years. Would need 19% more gas for an 80% (.95/.80=.19). So $35k * 19% = $6,650 saved over 35 years. NOT ONLY is there energy savings, but HIGH quality equipment last twice as long, so saves another $3k to install another one.
@@scpatl4now seems like all appliances are getting worse every decade they make them cheaper and try for planned obsolescence to last a little longer than the warranty even cars are getting worse since 1990s they were not selling enough new ones
highly agree with the old furnace part, I've worked on 40 year old Thermo Pride oil burners still in great shape
As a self- employed HVAC guy I mostly disagree. At least with my pricing with York, the difference between 80% and 95% is only about $800-$1000. So you will get that money back very soon in my region in Utah, even with the default warranty of 5 years. But if registered, the warranty becomes 10 years.
York part prices aren’t as expensive as carrier or trane either. Plus my overall repair price is better than most companies anyway. Of course this is all dependent on my company and pricing of course. But that’s mostly my point. I run my business fair and honestly.
Addressing the reliability issue, in my experience it has slightly more to do with how well it was installed, but more complexity does play a role. Any well taken care of furnace is capable of lasting more than 15 years in my opinion.
Also one huge point I have is if there was a previous furnace that was 90%+ efficient in the house, it makes so much more sense to match the 90%+ when doing a changeout. Otherwise you would have to run a metal flue which can only vent through the roof. Most of the time that’s not even an option to do.
The one place I do agree is with anything higher than 95% (according to my prices) they are too expensive for only a few percentage points higher. You won’t ever ROI on those. And modulating furnaces are a nightmare to repair and diagnose.
In your favor, 80% totally makes sense with attics, rentals, people who don’t have a way to run pvc flue, or simply people who have a tight budget. I say go for it in those cases. I am also against the tactics some companies use to upsell.
QUESTION: "induction" stoves: lower maintenance due to less parts? (despite the control board). With the new IRA incentives, are induction stoves worth it, or, are they are maintenance nightmare down the road? Thx....D
A lot of your points are more specific to premium brands (which I think are a waste of money). I install Amana, and our basic high efficiency units are only about $400 more than an 80%. We also don't charge anything extra for installation unless it's an upgrade from a 80%, and even then the amount is trivial, a few hundred dollars. The parts example you gave was for a carrier compared to Goodman. Carrier is notorious for charging 3-4x what other companies do for the exact same part. The comparable part for a Modulating Goodman is only about$100 more. Either way you are probably paying mostly for the installation, not the part. Modulating furnaces are also way more efficient, not only because they make heat more efficiently, but because they reduce the temperature delta between the outside air and the heated air. This reduces the amount of heat loss from windows, insulation, etc. Most of our customers who go from a high efficiency, to a Modulating high efficiency save an additional 15%-20% in energy costs. That is on top of the 16%-18% you get from going from 80% to a high efficiency. Modulating furnaces are also much more comfortable, provideing consistent warm heat more similar to radiant systems, compared to 80% units which blast the house with overheated air and constantly cycle on and off.
Hmm last time i got quotes it was like 2k for 80% eff, like 4.5k for high, but maybe that's because of the duct work...
Wish 80% had an option to draft from outside for the combustion...
@@RogerPack Using household air for combustion is actually why I bought the 80% furnace. They average house leaks air like a sieve, so you are burning infiltrated air and sending it up the flue, thus constantly changing the stale air in the house. Often people with tight houses and high efficiency furnaces resort to air exchangers ( more money) to get rid of the stale air and pollutants generated in a tight house.
I installed a high efficiency Amana three years ago. Difference from 80% was less than $1000 including installation and removal of a furnace that was probably 50 years old. It gets cold here. To me it was worth it, as I probably won't live long enough to replace it.
@@vtxnana In a super cold climate, especially with relatively expensive natural gas prices or propane, I would probably do the same. Portland, Oregon, where i live, is fairly mild in winter and gas prices are relatively cheap compared to other places in the U.S.
Thank you Immensely, for this Video. I was completely unaware of the fact that a high efficiency furnace contains two
Heat Exchangers. I shall definitely purchase the Standard type furnace, when the time comes to replace our unit. I have
subscribed to your Channel. Roland Singh, Canada 🇨🇦
Remember, there may be a hidden cost. When replacing a conventional gas fired furnace you will remove it from a chimney that it shares with a gas fired water heater... thus orphaning the water heater on a flue that is too large to serve only fumes produced by the water heater in winter. The furnace that is now not using the flue use to keep the flue warmed in the winter so the fumes from the water heater will rise up and out. Now you have a situation where you need to do somthing with the gas water heater such as replace it with electric.
We install chimney liners for that very reason
I have 2 separate 80% furnace in my home, upstairs and downstairs. I have replaced the parts in both, including the circuit board in one, myself, over the years. I will keep them forever as they are easy to repair and maintain myself, which has and should continue to save money.
It's funny you would make a video about this. My old Rheem heater is 30 years. I'm going to replace it with another 80% furnace next summer.
I think it makes sense to replace like for like. If you already had a 90+% furnace, reworking the flue to 80% metal venting would be too expensive unless it was a really short run.
@@valentindecker5264 It's not going to cost you much to have a metal pipe installed.
@blackericdenice May the new furnace last 30 years for you as well good sir! Thank you for sharing!
My house was built in 1963 and had a 200,000 BTU furnace that started life as oil, converted to propane, then to natural gas when it was available. It had a belt driven blower that we ran constant and was the sound was only noticeable when the house was completely silenced. In 2001 I replaced it with a 90% 100,000 BTU furnace. I sold the house in 2011 and spent more on repairs than I could have ever saved even if the price of gas doubled. The old furnace was 2-2.5 times physically larger and that was the only gain in the trade. The new furnace blower was a direct drive and was very loud and annoying. The furnace was in the basement garage of a solid masonry house. No wood structure including the main floor. The 90% furnace did the job very well and possibly kept up better than the old 200,000 unit in really cold blowing (below zero) weather but at a much greater overall cost. I was told the old furnace was probably only 30-40% efficient if that much so that would explain why the 90% with lower input performed better. I also had installed a new gas water heater at the same time. I replaced the gas valve 3 times because of a flame sensor failure that was built into it and not replaceable. The 4th time I replaced the water heater. That high efficiency water heater cost me $2,200.00. As far as conserving energy? What was the energy cost of manufacturing and shipping the replacement parts and new heater and the energy used by the HVAC shop to perform the work? In a nut shell, there is no dollar, energy, or climate savings anywhere in my experience. Only space saving in the house.
My brother in law lives in a house with a 1992 92% furnace. They can last 30+ years. My house was upgraded to 96% from 80% after 14 years, presumably because it failed. (It also happened 1 year before I bought it, do maybe they upgraded because of realtor advice?)
Modulating may be too expensive, but a standard 2 stage 95-96% furnace is only 1000 bucks more than 80%. Probably worth it with a $75-100 a month gas bill...
I meant to also say, my 96%er will be 10 years old in 2 months, and I've had nothing to replace on it. I'm hoping for another 10+years from it
@@valentindecker5264 keep your fingers crossed. You’re about to break a milestone decade….usually when they start going bad.
@valentindecker5264 Thank you for sharing your experience! I agree that the two stage 90%+ furnaces are a good option too, especially if one's gas bills are high.
Here’s my thoughts. I replaced my 80% years ago. Lost an ugly chimney poking out of my roof and gained a pantry in my kitchen from the space the chimney ran thru which doesn’t equate to more money if I sell my house but it might sell quicker. Storage storage storage is key in homes. Also pvc pipe is cheaper than a metal chimney as well. So I’m shopping fir new furnace now. What’s your thoughts on Goodman brand
That's a great point! Storage is golden! Personally I think Goodman is a good brand. It may not be "top of the line" but parts for Goodman units are readily available unlike some of the other premium brands that have more special order parts.
That’s true about the parts. My curry furnace is carrier weather maker 9300ts. It’s been a great furnace although we have a great parts place near by but even they don’t stock a lot of parts that leave you cold in the winter for up to a week and I’ve been told Goodman uses the same parts as many. I would definitely like to get the carrier infinity 98 I think it is but haven’t found a place to sell me one without them insisting they install it. Guess it’s a warranty thing but yeah easy enough thing to install. Thanks on the thumbs up on the Goodman though
Great video! I have a 24 or 25 year old Lennox 80% that is clean and runs like a champ. I've been looking at getting the 96% variable stage unit from them and as much as I love the sound of the technology, I just cannot justify the expense, especially since prices skyrocketed over the past few years.
My advice would be stay away from communicating variable speed. If you want high efficiency & price, you will be perfectly happy with a 90+ 2 stage system and a 16 seer AC. When you do the upgrade, insist on a quality Class 2 surge arrester on the furnace to protect the board and the ECM motor. When the installer puts it in, have them explain the sequence of operation and point out the parts like the igniter and flame sensor to you. Those 2 parts are something every homeowner should have sitting on a shelf next to the furnace and they should understand how to recognize a failure in each component. Good luck with your replacement furnace.
@@yfdfireman2 Thank you! Great advice!
I have a Lennox modulating furnace from 2009 that’s so far needed no repairs(knock on wood) The comfort and quiet of the units is amazing. Probably wouldn’t be able to go back to single or two stage units. That being said, they are more expensive and the energy savings won’t make up for it. I live in an extremely cold climate so having perfect temperature/humidity controls make it worth it for me.
@@skylerdylan1005 Which model on that Lennox?
@@Kiddro22 G71MPP. 14 years old now. I’m sure it will be a brutal repair bill when something does go wrong, assuming they even have parts for it.
My furnace is 30 years old, and we're planning to replace it b/c the condensor failed a couple of time during the winter. After watching this video, we definitely don't want hight efficiency, but do you recommend 2 stage one?
Personally I would not go with a two stage furnace. Usually the savings are not worth it plus it adds a few more expensive extra components that can fail.
I still think the most bang for the buck is a 2-stage 80% like the 16 year old Bryant I have. It seldom kicks into high unless it's below zero and the only repair so far was replacing the flame rod 3 years ago and at the same time I got an extra hot surface ignitor so if that does go out in the middle of the night in January I can change it in about 15 minutes and go back to bed.
I just replaced my Heil 80% efficiency 1 stage furnace with a 2 stage 80% efficiency Lennox. I hope it will last at least 20 years.
Would you do a two stage furnace or one stage? I don’t want to deal with expensive parts and costly repairs.
Two stage furnaces are nice, especially in larger houses and cold climates. As far as reliability goes its the same as a single stage.
@@Redtooth75 thanks, the sales rep said it’s pointless to get a one stage bc for a couple hundred more you can get the two stage. I just don’t want to deal with stuff breaking down and having to pay 3x for parts
@@GameTrailCameraVideos the parts do not have to be super expensive just because its a 2 stage. As long as the inducer and blower motor are PSC or shaded pole motors they will be the same as a normal furnace, just 2 different heating speeds. The gas valve would be a 2 stage gas valve which is only slightly more than a normal one. If you get ecm motors though those are very expensive and not that reliable.
@@Redtooth75 I was told PSC is phased out and ECM is the only option
@@GameTrailCameraVideos they are still produced in new furnaces. 80% and 90% furnaces will use them, its when you want the 95% or higher efficiency that you need ecm motors. So unless your local codes require that level of efficiency you can still get them. Its possible that the dealer you talked to did not have a lower efficiency 2 stage model.