The thing you have to keep in mind about famines: people, when not restricted in options, do not sit around and starve to death. They barter labor, plant different crops, eat wild food, fish, immigrate, etc... So if millions of people are literally starving to death, that means something is preventing them from being able to use alternatives. This is where the English policies come in. The question then becomes, does allowing a people to starve to death under policy limitations count as genocide? That's really what they are arguing about. I think most would argue yes. They didn't line them up and pull the trigger, but the result was exactly the same and all data suggest the English new that fact and threw them a few crumbs to keep their hands clean, like roads to nowhere and the soup kitchens.
they did line people up and shoot them. many were beaten to death/tortured and shot etc and they took our food to feed their army which starved many others.
Yes, I very much agree. I particularly liked your comment ' they didn't line them up and pull the trigger" .. for me that's it right there. The mechanisms for malicious intent were all at play and in place of removing those destructive elements the Crown did nothing to seriously alleviate the situation. The horrible fact that throughout the heaviest periods of famine cattle on the hoof continued to be exported by agents of the Crown off the island. Colonialism was and is a scourge to the human experience. It destroys all that is sacred within a race and a culture. It's little comfort to the afflicted but the passage of time through the decending generations sets up a mighty couter punch that will unleash an energy that will drive the colonists back to their land - if they're lucky! What goes around comes around.
I took 'Comrade' Kennedy's Irish Famine class in QUB a few years ago. In our opening class he announced the famine to be 'God's punishment of the Irish' Completely influenced what I would learn in his class, not that he did much teaching, he relied heavily on one of my fellow students who had a great knowledge of the subject. Tim Pat was right when he highlighted the point that Kennedy had failed to mention the amount of food that was exported from our country by the English during the famine.
YOU exported the food. We didn't create the potato blight it was worldwide. But because you were all religious zealots you couldn't bring yourselves to blame God therefore it had to be the British. Well you gave us Bob Geldoff so now we are even.
15 million in Belgium 🇧🇪 100.00 died bc the ports were closed hence only 100.00 people or it would have been millions like the Irish ☘️. In 1846 900.000 cattle had been shipped out of Ireland 🇮🇪 & that doesn’t count the wheat oat & Barley. The almighty caused the blight the English / British ruling classes caused a Genocide. May sir then promoted to Lord Trevelyn after he committed Genocide burn in Hell. Prior to 1801 act of union there was a few small famines but the ports were all shut but after those laws penal laws the Irish ☘️ couldn’t close the ports .
The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the Earl of Clarendon even accused the Parliament of "extermination" in a letter to the PM Lord John Russell. The letter in 1849 said: ""I don't think there is another legislature in Europe that would disregard such suffering as now exists in the west of Ireland, or coldly persist in a policy of extermination." en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
BS - the British did not do much to ameliorate the famine but they did a heck of a lot more than the native Irish aristocracy. The worst , most cruel landlords were the native Irish. The Irish have made it a National pass time to blame the British. One of the arguments is that lots of Irish people left Ireland because of British genocide. Well, when I left Ireland in 1981 every person who could leave Ireland did. In 1981 Ireland had been independent for 58 years. So again BS.
It was a class thing. The landlords used the famine to clear the lands. Lots of those guys were Catholic and yes that is forgotten. I think that's why the famine hasn't really been talked about in Ireland. Many academics in the past we're from wealthy families because those were the ones who could afford for their kids to go to college as opposed to get a job. Therefore they are hardly going to point out the crimes of the Irish Gentry. Better to sweep it under the rug.
I don't know the British were talking about getting rid of the Irish and using starvation as a method so it would look natural. I don't know if anyone actually took this seriously. It could just be the ramblings of a bigot who really hated Irish people lol.
It is obvious that you have forgotten your Country Ireland. The English/British authorities caused the Irish (Famine) Genocide 1840 to 1860. Six Million Irish Men Women and Children were made homeless and starved to death R.I.P. while the English/British authorities exported nearly all the foodstuffs from Ireland to England/Britain and to "their" Colonies. Some of the foodstuffs stolen and exported from Ireland by the English/British authorities are as follows:- Beef and Live Cattle, Butter, Cheese, Milk and Dairy Produce, Live Chickens and eggs and other Poultry Produce, Goats and Goats Milk, Bacon and Live Pigs, Turnips, Parsnips, Sugar Beet, Leeks and Leek Seeds, Onions and Onion Seeds, Barley, Corn, Grain, Wheat, Fish and other Sea Foods, Ale, Stout, Cider, Wine, Liquor, Vodka, Whiskey, Gin, Vodka. Because the starving Irish Men, Women and Children were sick and weak from hunger few were able to work on the useless work schemes that the English/British authorities set up.. The conditions on these work schemes were barbaric and consisted of a twelve hour day starting at eight in the morning and finishing at eight In the Winter the workers.would be working sometimes in four foot of snow in the dark and on freezing temperature; from start to finish; with the work consisting of digging up rocks and breaking them into gravel by hand; to make roads that went no where. Because of the freezing temperature in the Winter and the extremely hard conditions in general workers often died R.I.P. on the job and their wages were not paid to their next of Kin. If a worker was fifteen minutes late they would receive only a half days pay. If a Worker was a half hour late they would not be paid for the day but would still have to work the full day. These work schemes were created on order to conceal the Genocide taking place; implemented by the English/British authorities. More Irish Men, Women and Children died R.I.P. on "Coffin Ships" which were not sea worthy and were under the charge of a drunken Captain. These "Coffin Ships" often broke up at sea resulting in all passengers drowned. Some of these,"Coffin Ships" broke up at sea resulting in all passengers drowned and within sight of their Loved.Ones. One can only imagine the grief these Loved Ones felt.
I love the point just grazed upon by Coogan, but never faced.... "The great overpopulation of the land." So, the british were responsible for the population boom?
To quote Kennedy from the QUB website: ‘But to narrow the focus simply to the role of the British government for a moment: for all the massive irresponsibility and buck-passing that characterised the five years of crisis, the state succeeded in organising public relief schemes that employed three-quarters of a million workers, and at one point was responsible for feeding three million people on a daily basis.’ That is true, and yet far less than half the truth, because it’s false by what he omitted to qualify that underhanded statement with the whole truth. It only happened from the spring of ’47, and it was for three months only, and it was soup. ‘at one point’ Sneaky man, and he repeated that twice in the interview and got away with it. It proved that the British government knew what had to be done, had the network and resources to do what actually had to be done, but they didn’t.
@@themaskedman221 I really don’t like giving cancer and smallpox a bad reputation, but you germ loving Reich wing cancer culture justice warriors are worse than a relapsed double dose of both at the same time. Britain hasn’t been able to feed itself for over two hundred years, it currently imports over 50% of what it needs. The most expensive farm land in the world is Irish soil, the island of Ireland today produces enough food to feed 60,000,000 people, or about the same as the continent of Australia. The degree to which the people of Ireland were dependent upon the potato was revealed in the 1837 Report on the Poor of Ireland, which estimated that 2,385,000 people were in a state of semi-starvation every summer as they waited for the potato crop to be harvested. Paradoxically, the potato blight occurred at a time when Ireland was otherwise among the most productive of all the agricultural economies in Europe. But, the food that was produced was the property of the landlords and was barred from Irish consumption. An average of seven ships of foodstuffs left Ireland every day for places elsewhere in the world. In 1847, for example, 9,992 Irish calves were exported to England, a 33% increase over the previous year. The British government was generally deaf and blind to Ireland’s plight. As one official stated in 1846, “It is not the intention at all to import food for the use of the people of Ireland.” Nonetheless, some food was brought into the country. While virtually all of Ireland’s rich grain-stocks were exported. -------------------- At the end of 1845, exports of potatoes from Ireland increased, especially to England, Belgium and Holland, all of which had experienced the potato blight. The reduction of potatoes in the Irish markets caused some concern within Ireland, although overseas demand for Irish potatoes diminished when some of them arrived at their ports of destination diseased with blight. The export of livestock to Britain (with the exception of pigs) also increased during the Famine. Whilst the export of pigs decreased, the export of bacon and ham increased from 930 cwt. in 1846 to 1,061 cwt. in 1847. In total over three million live animals were exported between 1846-50, more than the number of people who emigrated during the Famine years. In 1847, 9,992 calves were exported from Ireland to Britain, which represented a thirty-three per cent increase on exports on the previous year. Some of these cattle were then re-exported to Europe. Overall, during the Famine years, food exports to Europe from Britain increased. Irish food exports, however, went much further afield than Britain or even Europe. In the summer of 1847, a New York newspaper noted that imports of grain from Ireland were even larger than usual. A wide variety of other foodstuffs left Ireland apart from livestock-vegetables and pulses (particularly peas, beans and onions), dairy products, fish (especially salmon, oysters and herrings) and even rabbits. In February 1847, 377 boxes of ‘fish and eggs’ and 383 boxes of fish were imported into Bristol alone. The butter export trade was particularly buoyant. In the first week of 1847, for example, 4,455 firkins of butter (a firkin equals nine gallons) were exported from Ireland to Liverpool. In the following week, this had risen to 4,691 firkins. Large quantities of butter were exported from Cork to all parts of Britain. For example, in the first nine months of 1847, 56,557 firkins of butter were exported to Bristol and 34,852 firkins to Liverpool. During the same period, 3,435 poultry were exported to Liverpool and 2,375 to Bristol. Alcohol was also a major item of export. Although the foundation of Father Mathew’s temperance movement in 1838 had damaged the Irish alcoholic drink industry, it remained an important sector of the economy both for internal and external consumption. In 1847, six million gallons of grain spirit were consumed within Ireland. Exports were also high, mostly in the form of ale, stout, porter, and whiskey. These products were derived from grain (barley and malt or, to a limited extent, potatoes) and thus represented a disguised export of grain. In the first nine months of 1847, for example, 874,170 gallons of porter were exported from Ireland to Liverpool. During the same period, 278,658 gallons of Guinness were imported into Bristol. Whiskey exports were also substantial and 183,392 gallons of this spirit arrived in Liverpool. This aspect of the export trade was criticised within Ireland. The prohibition of distillation during a subsistence crisis was a traditional response by governments. In both 1845 and 1846, there were calls for distillation to be outlawed. This included requests from the corporation of Dublin and the Lord Lieutenant, Lord Heytesbury. These entreaties were refused. In spite of the apparent commitment of both Peel and Russell’s governments to free trade, imports and exports continued to be hampered by the Navigation Acts, which restricted the ability of foreign ships to carry goods to ports in the United Kingdom. At the same time, freight charges were imposed on goods imported into the United Kingdom. These charges were highly volatile and, after the disastrous harvest of 1846, rose to three times their usual rate. This body of legislation and the continuation of freight charges hindered the free movement of goods into Ireland, especially during the critical months in the winter of 1846-47. This was recognised by Isaac Butt, former Professor of Political Economy at Trinity College. In 1847, he identified the paradox of expecting free trade to supply the Irish market whilst trade continued to be hampered by various restrictions. This led him to pose the rhetorical question: If ministers resolved to trust the lives of the Irish people to private enterprise, was it not common sense and common justice to them that private enterprise should be unencumbered by any restrictions in the execution of the task of supplying, at the notice of a few months, provisions to five million people. Soup Kitchens By January 1847 it was obvious that the relief policies introduced by the Whig administration only a few months earlier had failed. In an attempt to ameliorate the situation, the government announced that the public works were to be replaced by soup kitchens. Furthermore, the Navigation Acts and all duties on foreign grain were temporarily suspended. These measures undoubtedly facilitated imports into Ireland in the spring and summer of 1847, when grain imports began to rise sharply and food prices to fall. This legislation coincided with the closing of the public works programme and their replacement with government soup kitchens, which were highly successful. However, these measures were too late to help the hundreds of thousands of people who had died in the preceding winter months when there had been a clear starvation gap for the destitute of Ireland. During these months, deprivation and starvation co-existed with a thriving export trade and high profit margins, demonstrating the duality of the Irish economy. The second failure of the potato crop in 1846 left many people without access to their usual supply of food. The Whig government’s decision not to intervene in the market place but to use public works as the main means of providing relief was disastrous. In many instances, the wages paid on the relief works proved to be too low to purchase food in a period of ‘famine’ prices, forestalling and hoarding. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to leave Ireland and it was not until the following spring that food imports became substantial. Consequently, during the winter, there was a ‘starvation gap’. The size of that gap is best measured, not in calorific values or in terms of the volume of food exported, but in the amount of excess mortality and suffering during those months. Whilst official mortality statistics were not kept, the local Irish constabulary provided an unofficial estimate that 400,000 people had died due to a lack of food in the winter of 1846-47. The belief that the British government had abandoned the Irish destitute to market forces was not confined to nationalists such as John Mitchel. The Earl of Clarendon, who had succeeded Bessborough as Lord Lieutenant, confided to the Prime Minister at the end of 1847 that: No-one could now venture to dispute the fact that Ireland had been sacrificed to the London corn-dealers because you were a member for the City, and that no distress would have occurred if the exportation of Irish grain had been prohibited. Christine Kinealy is a Fellow of the University of Liverpool. Further reading: P.M. Austin-Bourke, ‘The Visitation of God’?: The Potato and the Great Irish Famine (Dublin 1993). C. Kinealy, ‘A Death-Dealing Famine’: The Great Hunger in Ireland (London 1997). P. Mathias, The First Industrial Nation: The Economic History of Britain 1700-1914 (London 1990). The author wishes to acknowledge the assistence Jo Jones, Sean Egan, Hugo Flynn, Ruth Peel and Jack Worrall.
It most definitely was Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing. It saddens me that of 13 children I was one of 3 born in England. All other siblings were born in Ireland. My Heart and My Blood belongs to Ireland. Always! The English Rampaged and Savaged Our Land! 💔
@@themaskedman221 The facts agree with me. It is obvious that you are reading pro - English/British apologetic "history" which consistently "air brushes" the facts but Truth is the Daughter of Time and all will be revealed. Your post has all the "hallmarks" of a pathological liar who believes their own lies. It is blatantly obvious that you have not studied history at all. Where are your facts and figures? You are just ranting and raving.
You could not be more right. Look up the Protestant Ascendancy for historic details, and their descendants were and are the biggest threat to democracy, peace and prosperity on the island of Ireland. They always have. And it’s the reason why the United States is a secular country. Interestingly also, the only real tangible reason why there’s a USA at all is because of the Gaelic speaking Irish born who were thrown off their stolen land. Like any national tragedy, the Great Irish Famine was not simply due to only one factor, like one crop, it but was the final straw, and centuries in the making. Under fierce opposition, the Acts of Union 1800 (sometimes erroneously referred to as a single Act of Union 1801) were parallel acts of the Parliament of Great Britain and the Parliament of Ireland which united the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland (previously in personal union) to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The acts came into force on 1 January 1801, and the merged Parliament of the United Kingdom had its first meeting on 22 January 1801. By 1900, the population of Ireland was half. Even by 1870, only 3% of Irish farmers owned their own land while 97% were tenants. By 1929, this ratio had been reversed with 97.4% of farmers holding their farms in freehold. All remaining penal laws were only repealed by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland by the Government of Ireland Act 1920. ‘She is in your hands-in your power. If you do not save her, she cannot save herself. One-fourth of her population will perish unless Parliament comes to their relief.’ Daniel O’Connell, 8th February 1847, House of Commons... In 1695 harsh penal laws were enforced, known as the 'popery code': Catholics were prohibited from buying land, bringing their children up as Catholics, and from entering the forces or the law. Catholics could no longer run for elected office, purchase land, or own property (such as horses) valued at more than 5 pounds. In the early years of the 18th century the ruling Protestants in Ireland passed these laws designed to strip the "backwards" Catholic population of remaining land, positions of influence and civil rights. By 1778 Irish Catholics would own a meager 5% of Irish land. Furthermore, the Catholic educational system was outlawed and priests who did not conform to the laws could be branded on the face or castrated. As a result, much of Catholic church services and education and record keeping was forced underground, to operate only under extreme secrecy. The religion and culture were kept alive by secret open-air masses and illegal outdoor schools, known as 'hedge' schools. All Irish culture, music and education was banned. By the time of the census of 1841 the Irish were impoverished, landless and leaderless by the eve of the famine. Professor Lecky a British Protestant and ardent British sympathizer, said in his "History of Ireland in the 18th Century" that the object of the Penal Laws was threefold: "To deprive Catholics of all civil life; to reduce them to a condition of extreme, brutal ignorance; and, to disassociate them from the soil.: Lecky said, "He might with absolute justice, substitute Irish for Catholic, "and added a fourth objective: "To expatriate the race."
Graves, immigration, number who died, no one left to record the deaths, no census correctly done, how about the most important point to this, the armed removal by English regiments of thousands, and how about no other country lost people's lives due to the blight? Natural causes and events would not have affected the Irish people had they been left to themselves and not been given no choice but to only grow potatoes to begin with. Many other food items were grown there, and sheep and cattle took up the grazing land, thus the loss of farm land. The penal laws forced this. Coffin ships...they were already sick, starving and dying, as landlords sent them away because they didn't want to be financially responsible of them. Typical historian response Professor. Has this Professor read the reports the English who came to Ireland during the famine and wrote back on the horrific conditions? Centuries before, when lands were taken and planters brought in, the Irish were brought to poor conditions. English policy caused it. Otherwise they would have survived!
***** And you are one? Or a unionist perhaps? You obviously have missed the facts. Mine come from multiple sources including English accounts. Two years of solid study, reading every personal account I could get my hands on. In reply, what happened to them all? They died. Pure and simple. You and I are opposite sides. There's no point in bantering with you. And, I'm not a plastic Paddy, but thank you anyway. Please learn to google the reports yourself, and then your eyes will be opened. But people like you won't. There's multitudes of information for you out there.
nancy yancey Don't talk SHITE!!! There's not ONE Academic Irish Historian, who will confirm ANY of your Plastic Paddy crap!!! Try naming me one, you barefaced liar!!!
nancy yancey P.S. If you had even a BASIC grasp of History, you wouldn't post ignorant drivel like this: "armed removal by English regiments of thousands, and how about no other country lost people's lives due to the blight?" 1. England ceased to exist in 1707, you moron!!! 2. There were 100s of THOUSANDS of deaths across Europe, during the 1840s due to the Blight AND a failure of a Rye Harvest in Northern Europe, ffs!! Do you know anything Yank????
nancy yancey Read it & weep, brainless! "Poor potato crops in 1845 and in the following years also resulted in SIGNIFICANT EXCESS MORTALITY elsewhere in Europe. On the other hand, this period, and 1846 in particular, was also one of poor wheat and rye harvests throughout much of Europe. Failure of the grain harvest alone rarely resulted in a subsistence crisis, but the combination of poor potato and grain harvests in a single place was a lethal one. Connections between the local and the global, between the economic and the political, and between the rural and the industrial, make the crisis of the late 1840s a multi-layered one. This book offers a comparative perspective on the causes and the effects of what is sometimes considered as the ‘last’ European subsistence crisis. It begins with an extensive introduction that treats the topic in comparative perspective. The subsistence crisis had its most catastrophic impact in Ireland, and three chapters in the current volume are concerned mainly with that country. A fourth chapter uses price data to shed comparative perspective on the crisis, while the remaining nine chapters are case studies covering countries ranging from Sweden to Spain and from Scotland to Prussia. Throughout, the contributors focus on a range of common themes, such as the extent of harvest deficits, the functioning of food markets, fertility and mortality, and public action at local and national levels." Cormac Ó Gráda is professor of economics at University College, Dublin. He has worked extensively on the history of famines in Ireland and worldwide. Richard Paping teaches economic and social history and economics at University of Groningen. He has done extensive research on developments in standard-of-living, economy and demography in the Netherlands. Eric Vanhaute is professor social and economic history and world history at Ghent University. He has mainly published on the history of the rural society and of labour markets in Flanders and outside. www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9782503519852-1 Consider yourself SCHOOLED Yank, Lmfao!!!
***** Try the encyclopedia. No deaths elsewhere in the world from the potato blight. Historians only agree this is a moral division of opinions. Records from the time tell the true story, not just from one single in the British pocket historian. All you can do is call people names and cuss at them. You have a huge problem (And it lies in your heart). There are enough first hand accounts of witnesses who were there to blow you right out of the water. You are worth the effort of me sharing them with you. They are in my book, however. Read that and weep. Brainless you say? You actually think that has an affect on me or anyone else who disagrees with your nasty words, insults and brainless drivel? Hardly. You're the one who needs to get a soul. I'd try to figure out why you refuse to read the entire truth, but then I won't bargain with the devil either. Go waste your mindless words on someone else.
It was the blight and lice that done the damage. Typhus and disease not the British/English. Oh I forgot Irish farmers. Read History Ireland type in Typus in Ireland.
Ray, one should not thumbs up ones own comment. It's just not cricket mate. The people who died in that act of mass murder can be directly laid on the English. For the record too, it was only one of many acts of mass murder committed by the English in Ireland.
@@Zappy9518 If I thumbed up my own comment I apologise I agree it's not cricket . I didn't realise that I had done that. I'll address your other comments when I've looked at my post and your post again thanks.
@@rayjones5771 it's a long line of massacres and English made mass starvation of the Irish as a way to defeat and destroy the people. From Elizabeth the first and all the way down to the man made mass starvation of the mid nineteenth century. Cromwell had one of his ships loaded with nothing else but scythe, not to harvest food for his army. They were to used to destroy the crops of the Irish, to strave the ordinary people as a punishment. Drogheda was a royalist town, with english born royalists but the vast majority of the citizens murdered in Drogheda were Irish. To try to compare the murder of two children in warrington to the ethnic cleansing of the irish in Ireland, are you for real. Is that the best you can do Ray, to excuse the crimes committed on the Irish, when they were already a beaten people devoid of their leadership. Really Ray, really
He's not impartial. He doesn't want to face up to what happened. But they are both missing what really happened. It was a class thing. Even Catholic landlords shipped tons of food out of the country. While some protestant landlords went bankrupt trying to help the poor. No mention of the quakers who were the heros of the Irish famine while the Catholic church shut their doors. It was pretty simple case of racism. The landlord class wanted the land the poor lived on so they had to go. It's easy to demonize people when you want their land / labor e.g. how slavery and colonization was so easily accepted. Same thing is happening in different countries in the world today. Look at Brazil where children are going hungry while valuable land is being used to rear cattle. Where the land used for growing food for cattle could be better used growing food for people. You can't turn back the clock and right the wrongs of the past but you can think about the way you live now.
@@carmelmulroy6459 Well argued, Carmel. The more I read about the Famine, or indeed any human event, the more complex it seems. I suppose every landlord reacted in a slightly different way.
The problem is a lot of the research was done by academics who were from well off backgrounds. It was the upper classes both Catholic and protestant that took advantage of the famine and evicted their tenants to clear their land. But even before the famine the authorities over there were sayi g they wanted to get rid of the people living in Ireland and starvation would be a good method. I will have to find the quote. People back then were so racists and awful. What's worse was the Irish soldiers that went along with it. Talk about slave mentality.
@@carmelmulroy6459 I often wondered how my ancestors got through those times. They were, of course, in Kildare, Dublin and Laois, and relatively unscathed. How many people turned starving people away from their door, so that they and their families could survive.
It's so sad. Glad now there is research being done on it. Often famines aren't just the result of potato blight, famines or flooding most of the time they are man made. It's just easier to blame God than look at ourselves
My point is that Coogan is an Irish republican propagandist and not a historian, therefore his book is Irish republican propaganda rather than history.
jonoessex the only thing the English were great at was propaganda they robbed and infected everything country they everything stepped foot in I'm always so proud of our fore fathers for fighting for our independence and winning I'm so proud of Ireland a small country with a small population sent them back with there tails between there legs
Boblarry as a proud Irishman I blame for an gorta ma the British government for what happened not the ordinary person on the street ..... I am proud like all Irishmen of our independence but I blame the rulers from London not the ordinary ppl ..... at the end of the day sometime in the future the not give an inch mentality has got to stop ......
I am a direct descendent of Irish that migrated from Munster (Cork/Tip) to London via Bristol during the famine and were part of the infamous Irish Rookeries of London in that time - what many people are forgetting is that the Poor Relief in Ireland was also non existent - there was no work either and the IRISH Land Holders literally took the roof off the tenents homes and left them to starve and freeze! It was very often the Irish land holders who sold their own tenents on lies of improved living in England and America and actually paid money towards their passage - to get rid of them! And as someone who has this heritage from the clearances of both Ireland AND Scotland ... ask yourself this - if the English wanted so many Irish dead, why is it that they freely accepted them by their thousands into all major Cities in England and gave them Poor Law Union relief ... support that was NOT available or forthcoming in Ireland?! It was England that gave the suffering Irish and Scots relief ... not Ireland! You did not see a mass migration of English people INTO Ireland during the famine in hopes of breeding out and displacing the Irish ... it was completely the other way around! You can still access the newspaper archives from the British Libraries that contain first hand reports and blow by blow accounts of the famine and its effect in England and Ireland ... this is a complex subject that deserves a cool objective assessment - not simplistic blanket accusations and finger pointing. News articles and journalists such as Mayhew recorded interviews with London Irish from the Rookeries in the 1800's and the Irish interviewed had no love of their homeland at all ... they did not blame the English or their new host nation ... they loved their families and fellows but had no love for Ireland itself ... not after how it had treated them ... that's from the horses mouths. Stop to ask yourself why that might not jive with what historians are trying to sell us today by comparison! Sowing the seeds of endless division . Kennedy is quite right ...
'Freely accepted them in their thousands in cities across England'.... probably because they are now a cheap workforce.. Across the world cultures and the spirit of the people have, and are being, squashed. Make them good corporate fodder. I would not necessarily trust newspaper archives; they could well have had Kelvin Mackenzies then!! You are right in your Kennedy quote. We just have to realise, en-masse that division is being sought/encouraged/manufactured to divide the many, by the few, for continued control of their workforce and for the continued theft of land and resources.
@@gwyneth7812 What about all the Irish girls who quietly came over England for free abortions on the NHS..the English never spoke about it so they can't be complete bastards can they?
You refer to the landlords as Irish. But they were really the British aristocracy like Viscount Palmerstone, who evicted 2000 of his tenants. Many of the landlords would have identified as British. They were often absentee landlords living in Britain. As late as 1870, 3% of farmers only 97% of the land. Landlordism of this type only came to an end with the land Acts of the late 19th and early 20th centuries whereby the landlords were forced or encouraged to sell up with loans from the British government. It was far too late for the 1 million famine dead.
How many Protestants died during the famine? No one talks about that?? Sure there was plenty of poor Protestants. Then and now. Or did they not eat potatoes? Or only ones not infected by the blight? Sort of de bunks the theory of the deliberate attempt at genocide. But sure wasnt the famine happening in Europe also. Or are the British responsible for that too?
You are totally right what happen was horrible, but like you are I am desended from parternal grandparents from Galoway, Ireland 1840s etc. I have no history via my family of what happened, surely if they had sufferd so much it would stayed with the family forever. None came. My Grandparents fropm 1840s moved to rochdale, in lancashire. How do i know because their daughter was found guilty of theft and deported to austlrialia. That is pretty bad to happend to a 16 year old. She died in tasmina in her early 30s. Please note the family was not deported and they eventually settled in Ardwick, Manchester. The family had laid down such heavy roots members of it stil lived there over 140 years later. I was told my mother we had irish roots, but i though it was just family myths. I did not feel totally english though, so when i found out via my own research, it was true my grandparents did come from galoway in Ireland i was glad but a bit suprised as well. I also have irish ancestors from my father's side. Also i have welsh and scots ancestory from my father as well. If the british wanted to kill off all the irish during the famine, they certainly would not stop there but would of continued in the great cities of Manchester. The latter has a big population and still does to this day, it would been easy for the governmet commit genocide in the british cities as they had direct accesss and control. It just never happened. I know because i am a live.
The “intentionality“ was anti-catholic. Check out the UA-cam channel called defeat modernism on the subject. It gets a lot deeper into it. It’s worth a listen.
Callous 19thC Economics. Not genocide though. One million died in English workhouses in the 1840's. Rulers then generally did not care about the poor but the idea of systematic genocide is nonsense.
Totally agree I’m Irish and have absolutely nothing against ordinary brits I like many blame the British elites like Cromwell and trevelyan and lord John Russell for the crimes against our ppl , yes ordinary brits did send to a certain extend famine relief but the government are different from ordinary man on the street yes I hate the British government for what they did and indeed one could blame trevelyan for the brits brexit woes as of late over the northern border fiasco not many brits no this , yes many brits should better know there history and there previous governments actions in Ireland and also elsewhere in the world but that said personally one to one I get on well with many ordinary brits it’s there government elites we dislike or many of us the ordinary man _ woman going there day to day business I’m fine with the government are a totally different story......
@@jonathanwhite5688 That's the point though! It was the British establishment 's Penal Laws, then their lack of care for the peasantry which they "owned"..
Kennedy spends much time lambasting Tim Pat .. and denouncing his book and his views on the Famine .. but offers little else on his own .. the fact that an English land grab and dispossesion of the native Irish from their lands was the ultimate cause of the Famine .. without that interference the ability of the Irish to feed themselves and mitigate the effects of the failure of the potato crop .. they would have had options .. however the heavy hand of Westminster and the inherent disdain of English politicians to Ireland .. evidenced by the reams of Anit-Irish legislation, from denying the Irish a vote, to denying them to right of property to outlawing their language their religion .. these laws exist they are well recorded throughout the miserable association of England with Ireland .. these policies, attitudes and views were instrumental in providing the conditions for the Famine to reach the horror that it did. Tim Pat makes a great case for genocide on the part of the English .. Kennedy on the other hand fails to connect any of the dots and explains away a well known global tragedy - the death and displacement of millions of people. An absolute disgrace that was perpetrated by a greedy bully .. England. Really that simple ..
Kennedy has published many books on the Famine himself, far better researched and academically referenced than Coogan's piece of arsewipe trash!! However, he was not invited onto the programme to promote his own books, but to provide balance against Coogan's diatribe and propaganda! You clearly haven't a clue about Irish History either!
@@DonegalRaymie201 you're a bigoted wee wanker , you're all over these threads ffs , what you say about kennedys book may be true but can you seriously contradict anything this fella says about anti-irish/catholic sentiment in westminster and their attitudes to the ireland then and now ?
@@liberalirishman1425 Because perpetrators very rarely provide explicit statements of genocidal intent, this intent can be uncovered by examining policies, actions, and outcomes, as well as the guiding ideology.
@Barry Clearly a sladerous comment. Outside of that, I'm just don't understand what you are trying to say. A point I would make however is the Roll of Honour for WW
Ireland was directly ruled by Britain since 1801. The British army, constabulary, and the militia forces were not in mutiny while they removed Ireland's food; they were executing orders from London. Thus the food removal was no aberration. The pattern of British genocide in Ireland had been in operation for centuries. Research the evasive response by Lord Heytesbury to the visiting group of alarmed Irishmen who had beseeched him to stop the food removal. You read how he attempted to change the subject from food removal to potatoes and blight by reading to them a paper on the latter subject. Britain's genocide in Ireland was marely one of many it perpetrated throughout its empire. It is beyond ones imagination, but to be informed one ought not blink at England's clearances in Scotland its complete take over of the African slave trade which it HQ'D in Bristol, its genocides in Africa,India,Australia especialy Tasmania where nobody survived, New Zealand, its Opium war imposing opium on China by military force, India, Bangladesh repeated during world war 2, and through its genocidal "bomber" Harris (affectionately called "butcher" by his troops) for his aerial bombing of Kurdish villages and, later his ww2 fire-bombings of German cities. It is appropriate to include Britains employment of mass murder while refastening its grip on Ireland's Counties Fermanagh,Derry,Tyrone,Antrim,Armagh and Down. Britain continues to stonewall regarding its massacres in Ballymurphy, Loughinisland, Dublin/Monaghan, Omagh, Bloody Sunday etc. and its unchanged incarcerations and tortures in Maghaberry prison. While stonewalling the demands for the prosecution of the perpertrators. The British goverment has offered 50,000 payoffs to relatives of the fourteen its soliers murdered with impunity in Derry on bloody Sunday. Britains policy of genocide is by far, the world's most long lived. It is being extended by connection to American neo-cons who have converted its once proud Republic of the US into a squalid Anglo-American-Israeli empire. The genocidal notions of England's Malthus, Lord Brougham, and Ricardo that brought so much death and destruction to Ireland and the rest of the world have been revived by disciples of Ayn Rand.
And if you connect the dots of what you wrote . . . you will discover that all is linked to the Roman Catholic Church, Vatican City (a country) where the Papacy wants to control the world. In secret, the RCC create disasters and then pretends to be part of the solution.
@@peruvianauthorities1739 Vatican City, the site of the Holy See, was made an independent, sovereign state in 1929 with the signing of the Lateran Treaties. The Vatican was not a Country in the 1840-50s though I'm sure they had a lot of influence
Yes, Vatican City did become a country in 1929. And way prior to that .... the RCC was created in the early 4th century at the time of Constantine (not a true Christian) by hi jacking “true Christianity.” By 538 AD the religious power of the RCC controlled the secular power of Europe ... and to 1798. In 1798 a French army road into Rome and took the Pope captive ... hauled him over the Alps ... back to France where he died in captivity. 1798 marked the 1260 years reign of the RCC controlling the secular power of Europe (this was referred to Adolf Hitler as the First Reich). But 1798 didn’t completely destroy the RCC. Since 1798, the RCC has been ascending back to power. Hence, the RCC became a country in 1929 giving the Pope more clout and control on the world stage and the head of the new One World Order ... which is and will be hell on earth. The world is once again heading into another Dark Age.
@@sparkmanuk The alliance has always been Monarchy and Oligarchy. QUEEN Elizabeth violated her coronation oath by aligning with Vatican in this global coup. This Monarchy has been involved or i should say, helped initiate every war in our history, for Globalization.
Tim Pat Coogan is correct in his fact findings. Ireland had no way of defending themselves from outside British Military Forces. County Wexford did their upmost to keep the imposters out. The Celtic race lives on despite the barbaric crown invasion. His-Story - your story and the TRUTH!
Catherine have you read his book, or even looked at his bibliography? He uses no fact-finding at all, his sources ae built on misinterpreting other scholars work, and even uses an eircom.net as a source for a so-called scholarly piece of work.
As I said before There is a strong case to be made for the charge of genocide.However it is after 150+ years of neglect now to late decide conclusively. But what can in my opinion very clearly be deduced is that british rule in ireland regardless of motive was and remained a disaster for the irish.
Well I got to say as Irish American Those that did this horrible thing to The Irish People back in the past. They have to Face God on Judgment Day of This Horrible Crime. No Human Being Should be treated like this. The world needs to know this so this doesn't happen again
Il purchase the book to support Tim and to stick it to Liam. its funny that Liam is literally the only person I have heard with this attitude toward the whole situation that took place. It takes little imagination to think that the carry on in the good old days was typical for this time. its OK to see it as how it was. This kind of political strategy and carnage was happening all over the world. Why is it so hard to believe that the British were deliberately trying to cull the Irish populous and take their land? As far as I am aware the Brits hated the Irish to the core. forgive me for saying this but the Irish didn't starve themselves! lol Jesus like.
all of the same evidence and facts listed by ogrady/ograda..The role of the historian is as you agree not to interpret intent '' such as murdereous intent'' in the case of genocide but uncover facts. Thats done by lawyers as happened at nuremberg. And is happening today in Den Haag. There is a case to answer and shouting wont change that.
Around 70-300 million British subjects died in Famines that occurred on regular cycles, it didn't effect the White Protestants Saxons, India and Ireland for example have never had a famine since gaining independence from the British
in other words the English continuously used famine as a political weapon of choice against their rebellious subjects. Ironically so called historians give credit to the Brits for alleviating the famine ( in India, for example) English politicians created on their own ( professor Burton F.Beers) talk about historical revisionism.
British never really alleviated any famine, there is huge amount of proof of mass murder in their colonial empire against Non-Saxon and non-Anglicans . Things like irrigation , and clean water systems collapsed when the British took over it colonial possessions and never improved. You can Google that and probably find 200-700 written Primary and Secondary accounts from British officials alone during the British Empire period. So unless people don't need water, and food you are right.
re alleviating famine : on that I'm quoting Burton Beers ( whose 80's era high school textbook served as an important propaganda tool for anglo-american elites ) i.e, his spin on the British imposed famine policy in India.
Re: Slavery. Youre quite wrong both here. In both the W. Indies and Sri Lanka slavery was replaced by systems of compulsory and unpaid labor. Slavery by a new name. You really should read more than the standard Anglophile writings.
are u trying to start another fight. i mean why not go and enjoy the good weather. However if u want a fight We should have as next item the horrible plantation and the self serving protestant myths around 1641. right now i'm working. well having coffee.
cont'd. but i do think that the famine was such a traumatic event that the irish have a very huge reluctance to consider the full implications. and there is a good deal of evidence that famine was genocidal. proving it either way after a 150 years of neglect must be impossible. But part of that neglect was caused by the political bias( give no succour to irish.republicanism) of some of the very historians who critize TP Coogans book. respectfully yours
your fetishe for Academia is obsessive. What is at issue is not a matter of historical perspectives. We all by now know what happened during the famine. What is undecided is the intent of the authorities. was it murderous and in evaluating intent an historians opinion is just that an opinion. O'Gradys eg is of the opinion that no such intent existed. But law is not his field. And he did himself as an historian a disservice by expressing a Legal Opinion when he has no qualification to do so.
The myth of the lazy native. Syed Hussein Alatas. Its a classic. History is not just wriiten by inperialist running-dogs. Follow up the aforementioned with Culture and Imperialism, Said. But you'll have to buy your own copies as i still need mine.
If the lands had all been taken and everyone one was dead who would work the land for the rich land owners, your not going to bring people in who work for less than an Irish farm labour at the time, the farms fail theirs no tax revenue or food exports. I think the whole British policy was one of greed profits are always the driving force.
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The thing you have to keep in mind about famines: people, when not restricted in options, do not sit around and starve to death. They barter labor, plant different crops, eat wild food, fish, immigrate, etc... So if millions of people are literally starving to death, that means something is preventing them from being able to use alternatives. This is where the English policies come in. The question then becomes, does allowing a people to starve to death under policy limitations count as genocide? That's really what they are arguing about. I think most would argue yes. They didn't line them up and pull the trigger, but the result was exactly the same and all data suggest the English new that fact and threw them a few crumbs to keep their hands clean, like roads to nowhere and the soup kitchens.
they did line people up and shoot them. many were beaten to death/tortured and shot etc and they took our food to feed their army which starved many others.
Yes, I very much agree. I particularly liked your comment ' they didn't line them up and pull the trigger" .. for me that's it right there. The mechanisms for malicious intent were all at play and in place of removing those destructive elements the Crown did nothing to seriously alleviate the situation. The horrible fact that throughout the heaviest periods of famine cattle on the hoof continued to be exported by agents of the Crown off the island. Colonialism was and is a scourge to the human experience. It destroys all that is sacred within a race and a culture. It's little comfort to the afflicted but the passage of time through the decending generations sets up a mighty couter punch that will unleash an energy that will drive the colonists back to their land - if they're lucky! What goes around comes around.
@@Dechieftian Very well said. Straight to the point. Thank you.
@@gearoidantoineomaolain3285 Failte romhat, Gearoid.
Deciding not to help adequately meant those making that awful decision knew what would happen... Those in power knew it would cause genocide...
FAMINE WAS ALL UK OF WHICH IRELAND WAS AT THAT TIME. IT WAS ALSO ALL Europe.. Hunger or famine did not stop 5-16th pregnancy.
I took 'Comrade' Kennedy's Irish Famine class in QUB a few years ago. In our opening class he announced the famine to be 'God's punishment of the Irish' Completely influenced what I would learn in his class, not that he did much teaching, he relied heavily on one of my fellow students who had a great knowledge of the subject. Tim Pat was right when he highlighted the point that Kennedy had failed to mention the amount of food that was exported from our country by the English during the famine.
YOU exported the food. We didn't create the potato blight it was worldwide. But because you were all religious zealots you couldn't bring yourselves to blame God therefore it had to be the British. Well you gave us Bob Geldoff so now we are even.
15 million in Belgium 🇧🇪 100.00 died bc the ports were closed hence only 100.00 people or it would have been millions like the Irish ☘️. In 1846 900.000 cattle had been shipped out of Ireland 🇮🇪 & that doesn’t count the wheat oat & Barley. The almighty caused the blight the English / British ruling classes caused a Genocide. May sir then promoted to Lord Trevelyn after he committed Genocide burn in Hell. Prior to 1801 act of union there was a few small famines but the ports were all shut but after those laws penal laws the Irish ☘️ couldn’t close the ports .
@@tutenvanman2715 crazy troll..
The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, the Earl of Clarendon even accused the Parliament of "extermination" in a letter to the PM Lord John Russell. The letter in 1849 said: ""I don't think there is another legislature in Europe that would disregard such suffering as now exists in the west of Ireland, or coldly persist in a policy of extermination." en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
BS - the British did not do much to ameliorate the famine but they did a heck of a lot more than the native Irish aristocracy. The worst , most cruel landlords were the native Irish. The Irish have made it a National pass time to blame the British. One of the arguments is that lots of Irish people left Ireland because of British genocide. Well, when I left Ireland in 1981 every person who could leave Ireland did. In 1981 Ireland had been independent for 58 years. So again BS.
1981 Ireland you soft touch
It was a class thing. The landlords used the famine to clear the lands. Lots of those guys were Catholic and yes that is forgotten. I think that's why the famine hasn't really been talked about in Ireland. Many academics in the past we're from wealthy families because those were the ones who could afford for their kids to go to college as opposed to get a job. Therefore they are hardly going to point out the crimes of the Irish Gentry. Better to sweep it under the rug.
I don't know the British were talking about getting rid of the Irish and using starvation as a method so it would look natural. I don't know if anyone actually took this seriously. It could just be the ramblings of a bigot who really hated Irish people lol.
It is obvious that you have forgotten your Country Ireland. The English/British authorities caused the Irish (Famine) Genocide 1840 to 1860.
Six Million Irish Men Women and Children were made homeless and starved to death R.I.P. while the English/British authorities exported nearly all the foodstuffs from Ireland to England/Britain and to "their" Colonies.
Some of the foodstuffs stolen and exported from Ireland by the English/British authorities are as follows:-
Beef and Live Cattle, Butter, Cheese, Milk and Dairy Produce, Live Chickens and eggs and other Poultry Produce, Goats and Goats Milk, Bacon and Live Pigs, Turnips, Parsnips, Sugar Beet, Leeks and Leek Seeds, Onions and Onion Seeds, Barley, Corn, Grain, Wheat, Fish and other Sea Foods, Ale, Stout, Cider, Wine, Liquor, Vodka, Whiskey, Gin, Vodka.
Because the starving Irish Men, Women and Children were sick and weak from hunger few were able to work on the useless work schemes that the English/British authorities set up.. The conditions on these work schemes were barbaric and consisted of a twelve hour day starting at eight in the morning and finishing at eight In the Winter the workers.would be working sometimes in four foot of snow in the dark and on freezing temperature; from start to finish; with the work consisting of digging up rocks and breaking them into gravel by hand; to make roads that went no where. Because of the freezing temperature in the Winter and the extremely hard conditions in general workers often died R.I.P. on the job and their wages were not paid to their next of Kin. If a worker was fifteen minutes late they would receive only a half days pay. If a Worker was a half hour late they would not be paid for the day but would still have to work the full day. These work schemes were created on order to conceal the Genocide taking place; implemented by the English/British authorities.
More Irish Men, Women and Children died R.I.P. on "Coffin Ships" which were not sea worthy and were under the charge of a drunken Captain. These "Coffin Ships" often broke up at sea resulting in all passengers drowned.
Some of these,"Coffin Ships" broke up at sea resulting in all passengers drowned and within sight of their Loved.Ones.
One can only imagine the grief these Loved Ones felt.
Ethnic cleansing pure and simple...the British overtly stated that 1million Irish would and this was both a good thing and God's judgment...
I love the point just grazed upon by Coogan, but never faced.... "The great overpopulation of the land." So, the british were responsible for the population boom?
@@michaelcostello6019 ain't that the truth.
@freebeerfordworkers Engel's also described the irish as savages. Manchester has a massive population of irish people in the 1840s.
Add on Bangladesh. There's more truth to this than the royal loyalist allow to be heard.
.."The British government had the blood of 2 million Irish people on their hands"..
A.J.P. Taylor, British historian.
I'll have to look him up and read. Thank you
To quote Kennedy from the QUB website:
‘But to narrow the focus simply to the role of the British government for a moment: for all the massive irresponsibility and buck-passing that characterised the five years of crisis, the state succeeded in organising public relief schemes that employed three-quarters of a million workers, and at one point was responsible for feeding three million people on a daily basis.’
That is true, and yet far less than half the truth, because it’s false by what he omitted to qualify that underhanded statement with the whole truth.
It only happened from the spring of ’47, and it was for three months only, and it was soup.
‘at one point’
Sneaky man, and he repeated that twice in the interview and got away with it.
It proved that the British government knew what had to be done, had the network and resources to do what actually had to be done, but they didn’t.
and it wasnt ree wither, they charged a penny for a quart, who would have had money to pay?
The amount of sneakiness and half-truths involved in sustaining the genocide myth far outweighs anything Kennedy's ever written.
@@themaskedman221 I really don’t like giving cancer and smallpox a bad reputation, but you germ loving Reich wing cancer culture justice warriors are worse than a relapsed double dose of both at the same time.
Britain hasn’t been able to feed itself for over two hundred years, it currently imports over 50% of what it needs.
The most expensive farm land in the world is Irish soil, the island of Ireland today produces enough food to feed 60,000,000 people, or about the same as the continent of Australia.
The degree to which the people of Ireland were dependent upon the potato was revealed in the 1837 Report on the Poor of Ireland, which estimated that 2,385,000 people were in a state of semi-starvation every summer as they waited for the potato crop to be harvested.
Paradoxically, the potato blight occurred at a time when Ireland was otherwise among the most productive of all the agricultural economies in Europe. But, the food that was produced was the property of the landlords and was barred from Irish consumption. An average of seven ships of foodstuffs left Ireland every day for places elsewhere in the world. In 1847, for example, 9,992 Irish calves were exported to England, a 33% increase over the previous year. The British government was generally deaf and blind to Ireland’s plight. As one official stated in 1846, “It is not the intention at all to import food for the use of the people of Ireland.”
Nonetheless, some food was brought into the country. While virtually all of Ireland’s rich grain-stocks were exported.
--------------------
At the end of 1845, exports of potatoes from Ireland increased, especially to England, Belgium and Holland, all of which had experienced the potato blight. The reduction of potatoes in the Irish markets caused some concern within Ireland, although overseas demand for Irish potatoes diminished when some of them arrived at their ports of destination diseased with blight. The export of livestock to Britain (with the exception of pigs) also increased during the Famine. Whilst the export of pigs decreased, the export of bacon and ham increased from 930 cwt. in 1846 to 1,061 cwt. in 1847. In total over three million live animals were exported between 1846-50, more than the number of people who emigrated during the Famine years. In 1847, 9,992 calves were exported from Ireland to Britain, which represented a thirty-three per cent increase on exports on the previous year. Some of these cattle were then re-exported to Europe. Overall, during the Famine years, food exports to Europe from Britain increased. Irish food exports, however, went much further afield than Britain or even Europe. In the summer of 1847, a New York newspaper noted that imports of grain from Ireland were even larger than usual.
A wide variety of other foodstuffs left Ireland apart from livestock-vegetables and pulses (particularly peas, beans and onions), dairy products, fish (especially salmon, oysters and herrings) and even rabbits. In February 1847, 377 boxes of ‘fish and eggs’ and 383 boxes of fish were imported into Bristol alone. The butter export trade was particularly buoyant. In the first week of 1847, for example, 4,455 firkins of butter (a firkin equals nine gallons) were exported from Ireland to Liverpool. In the following week, this had risen to 4,691 firkins. Large quantities of butter were exported from Cork to all parts of Britain. For example, in the first nine months of 1847, 56,557 firkins of butter were exported to Bristol and 34,852 firkins to Liverpool. During the same period, 3,435 poultry were exported to Liverpool and 2,375 to Bristol.
Alcohol was also a major item of export. Although the foundation of Father Mathew’s temperance movement in 1838 had damaged the Irish alcoholic drink industry, it remained an important sector of the economy both for internal and external consumption. In 1847, six million gallons of grain spirit were consumed within Ireland. Exports were also high, mostly in the form of ale, stout, porter, and whiskey. These products were derived from grain (barley and malt or, to a limited extent, potatoes) and thus represented a disguised export of grain. In the first nine months of 1847, for example, 874,170 gallons of porter were exported from Ireland to Liverpool. During the same period, 278,658 gallons of Guinness were imported into Bristol. Whiskey exports were also substantial and 183,392 gallons of this spirit arrived in Liverpool. This aspect of the export trade was criticised within Ireland. The prohibition of distillation during a subsistence crisis was a traditional response by governments. In both 1845 and 1846, there were calls for distillation to be outlawed. This included requests from the corporation of Dublin and the Lord Lieutenant, Lord Heytesbury. These entreaties were refused.
In spite of the apparent commitment of both Peel and Russell’s governments to free trade, imports and exports continued to be hampered by the Navigation Acts, which restricted the ability of foreign ships to carry goods to ports in the United Kingdom. At the same time, freight charges were imposed on goods imported into the United Kingdom. These charges were highly volatile and, after the disastrous harvest of 1846, rose to three times their usual rate. This body of legislation and the continuation of freight charges hindered the free movement of goods into Ireland, especially during the critical months in the winter of 1846-47. This was recognised by Isaac Butt, former Professor of Political Economy at Trinity College. In 1847, he identified the paradox of expecting free trade to supply the Irish market whilst trade continued to be hampered by various restrictions. This led him to pose the rhetorical question:
If ministers resolved to trust the lives of the Irish people to private enterprise, was it not common sense and common justice to them that private enterprise should be unencumbered by any restrictions in the execution of the task of supplying, at the notice of a few months, provisions to five million people.
Soup Kitchens
By January 1847 it was obvious that the relief policies introduced by the Whig administration only a few months earlier had failed. In an attempt to ameliorate the situation, the government announced that the public works were to be replaced by soup kitchens. Furthermore, the Navigation Acts and all duties on foreign grain were temporarily suspended. These measures undoubtedly facilitated imports into Ireland in the spring and summer of 1847, when grain imports began to rise sharply and food prices to fall. This legislation coincided with the closing of the public works programme and their replacement with government soup kitchens, which were highly successful. However, these measures were too late to help the hundreds of thousands of people who had died in the preceding winter months when there had been a clear starvation gap for the destitute of Ireland. During these months, deprivation and starvation co-existed with a thriving export trade and high profit margins, demonstrating the duality of the Irish economy.
The second failure of the potato crop in 1846 left many people without access to their usual supply of food. The Whig government’s decision not to intervene in the market place but to use public works as the main means of providing relief was disastrous. In many instances, the wages paid on the relief works proved to be too low to purchase food in a period of ‘famine’ prices, forestalling and hoarding. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to leave Ireland and it was not until the following spring that food imports became substantial. Consequently, during the winter, there was a ‘starvation gap’. The size of that gap is best measured, not in calorific values or in terms of the volume of food exported, but in the amount of excess mortality and suffering during those months. Whilst official mortality statistics were not kept, the local Irish constabulary provided an unofficial estimate that 400,000 people had died due to a lack of food in the winter of 1846-47.
The belief that the British government had abandoned the Irish destitute to market forces was not confined to nationalists such as John Mitchel. The Earl of Clarendon, who had succeeded Bessborough as Lord Lieutenant, confided to the Prime Minister at the end of 1847 that:
No-one could now venture to dispute the fact that Ireland had been sacrificed to the London corn-dealers because you were a member for the City, and that no distress would have occurred if the exportation of Irish grain had been prohibited.
Christine Kinealy is a Fellow of the University of Liverpool.
Further reading:
P.M. Austin-Bourke, ‘The Visitation of God’?: The Potato and the Great Irish Famine (Dublin 1993).
C. Kinealy, ‘A Death-Dealing Famine’: The Great Hunger in Ireland (London 1997).
P. Mathias, The First Industrial Nation: The Economic History of Britain 1700-1914 (London 1990).
The author wishes to acknowledge the assistence Jo Jones, Sean Egan, Hugo Flynn, Ruth Peel and Jack Worrall.
It most definitely was Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing.
It saddens me that of 13 children I was one of 3 born in England. All other siblings were born in Ireland. My Heart and My Blood belongs to Ireland. Always!
The English Rampaged and Savaged Our Land! 💔
Very well said.
You say this with great self assurance. Yet historians don't agree with you. Ever wonder why?
@@themaskedman221 show us.
@@themaskedman221 The facts agree with me. It is obvious that you are reading pro - English/British apologetic "history" which consistently "air brushes" the facts but Truth is the Daughter of Time and all will be revealed. Your post has all the "hallmarks" of a pathological liar who believes their own lies. It is blatantly obvious that you have not studied history at all. Where are your facts and figures? You are just ranting and raving.
You could not be more right.
Look up the Protestant Ascendancy for historic details, and their descendants were and are the biggest threat to democracy, peace and prosperity on the island of Ireland.
They always have.
And it’s the reason why the United States is a secular country.
Interestingly also, the only real tangible reason why there’s a USA at all is because of the Gaelic speaking Irish born who were thrown off their stolen land.
Like any national tragedy, the Great Irish Famine was not simply due to only one factor, like one crop, it but was the final straw, and centuries in the making.
Under fierce opposition, the Acts of Union 1800 (sometimes erroneously referred to as a single Act of Union 1801) were parallel acts of the Parliament of Great Britain and the Parliament of Ireland which united the Kingdom of Great Britain and the Kingdom of Ireland (previously in personal union) to create the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The acts came into force on 1 January 1801, and the merged Parliament of the United Kingdom had its first meeting on 22 January 1801.
By 1900, the population of Ireland was half.
Even by 1870, only 3% of Irish farmers owned their own land while 97% were tenants. By 1929, this ratio had been reversed with 97.4% of farmers holding their farms in freehold.
All remaining penal laws were only repealed by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland by the Government of Ireland Act 1920.
‘She is in your hands-in your power. If you do not save her, she cannot save herself. One-fourth of her population will perish unless Parliament comes to their relief.’
Daniel O’Connell, 8th February 1847, House of Commons...
In 1695 harsh penal laws were enforced, known as the 'popery code': Catholics were prohibited from buying land, bringing their children up as Catholics, and from entering the forces or the law. Catholics could no longer run for elected office, purchase land, or own property (such as horses) valued at more than 5 pounds. In the early years of the 18th century the ruling Protestants in Ireland passed these laws designed to strip the "backwards" Catholic population of remaining land, positions of influence and civil rights.
By 1778 Irish Catholics would own a meager 5% of Irish land. Furthermore, the Catholic educational system was outlawed and priests who did not conform to the laws could be branded on the face or castrated. As a result, much of Catholic church services and education and record keeping was forced underground, to operate only under extreme secrecy. The religion and culture were kept alive by secret open-air masses and illegal outdoor schools, known as 'hedge' schools. All Irish culture, music and education was banned. By the time of the census of 1841 the Irish were impoverished, landless and leaderless by the eve of the famine.
Professor Lecky a British Protestant and ardent British sympathizer, said in his "History of Ireland in the 18th Century" that the object of the Penal Laws was threefold:
"To deprive Catholics of all civil life; to reduce them to a condition of extreme, brutal ignorance; and, to disassociate them from the soil.:
Lecky said, "He might with absolute justice, substitute Irish for Catholic, "and added a fourth objective: "To expatriate the race."
Graves, immigration, number who died, no one left to record the deaths, no census correctly done, how about the most important point to this, the armed removal by English regiments of thousands, and how about no other country lost people's lives due to the blight? Natural causes and events would not have affected the Irish people had they been left to themselves and not been given no choice but to only grow potatoes to begin with. Many other food items were grown there, and sheep and cattle took up the grazing land, thus the loss of farm land. The penal laws forced this. Coffin ships...they were already sick, starving and dying, as landlords sent them away because they didn't want to be financially responsible of them. Typical historian response Professor. Has this Professor read the reports the English who came to Ireland during the famine and wrote back on the horrific conditions? Centuries before, when lands were taken and planters brought in, the Irish were brought to poor conditions. English policy caused it. Otherwise they would have survived!
***** And you are one? Or a unionist perhaps? You obviously have missed the facts. Mine come from multiple sources including English accounts. Two years of solid study, reading every personal account I could get my hands on. In reply, what happened to them all? They died. Pure and simple. You and I are opposite sides. There's no point in bantering with you. And, I'm not a plastic Paddy, but thank you anyway. Please learn to google the reports yourself, and then your eyes will be opened. But people like you won't. There's multitudes of information for you out there.
nancy yancey
Don't talk SHITE!!! There's not ONE Academic Irish Historian, who will confirm ANY of your Plastic Paddy crap!!!
Try naming me one, you barefaced liar!!!
nancy yancey
P.S. If you had even a BASIC grasp of History, you wouldn't post ignorant drivel like this:
"armed removal by English regiments of thousands, and how about no other country lost people's lives due to the blight?"
1. England ceased to exist in 1707, you moron!!!
2. There were 100s of THOUSANDS of deaths across Europe, during the 1840s due to the Blight AND a failure of a Rye Harvest in Northern Europe, ffs!!
Do you know anything Yank????
nancy yancey
Read it & weep, brainless!
"Poor potato crops in 1845 and in the following years also resulted in SIGNIFICANT EXCESS MORTALITY elsewhere in Europe. On the other hand, this period, and 1846 in particular, was also one of poor wheat and rye harvests throughout much of Europe. Failure of the grain harvest alone rarely resulted in a subsistence crisis, but the combination of poor potato and grain harvests in a single place was a lethal one. Connections between the local and the global, between the economic and the political, and between the rural and the industrial, make the crisis of the late 1840s a multi-layered one.
This book offers a comparative perspective on the causes and the effects of what is sometimes considered as the ‘last’ European subsistence crisis. It begins with an extensive introduction that treats the topic in comparative perspective. The subsistence crisis had its most catastrophic impact in Ireland, and three chapters in the current volume are concerned mainly with that country. A fourth chapter uses price data to shed comparative perspective on the crisis, while the remaining nine chapters are case studies covering countries ranging from Sweden to Spain and from Scotland to Prussia. Throughout, the contributors focus on a range of common themes, such as the extent of harvest deficits, the functioning of food markets, fertility and mortality, and public action at local and national levels."
Cormac Ó Gráda is professor of economics at University College, Dublin. He has worked extensively on the history of famines in Ireland and worldwide.
Richard Paping teaches economic and social history and economics at University of Groningen. He has done extensive research on developments in standard-of-living, economy and demography in the Netherlands.
Eric Vanhaute is professor social and economic history and world history at Ghent University. He has mainly published on the history of the rural society and of labour markets in Flanders and outside.
www.brepols.net/Pages/ShowProduct.aspx?prod_id=IS-9782503519852-1
Consider yourself SCHOOLED Yank, Lmfao!!!
***** Try the encyclopedia. No deaths elsewhere in the world from the potato blight. Historians only agree this is a moral division of opinions. Records from the time tell the true story, not just from one single in the British pocket historian. All you can do is call people names and cuss at them. You have a huge problem (And it lies in your heart). There are enough first hand accounts of witnesses who were there to blow you right out of the water. You are worth the effort of me sharing them with you. They are in my book, however. Read that and weep. Brainless you say? You actually think that has an affect on me or anyone else who disagrees with your nasty words, insults and brainless drivel? Hardly. You're the one who needs to get a soul. I'd try to figure out why you refuse to read the entire truth, but then I won't bargain with the devil either. Go waste your mindless words on someone else.
It was the blight and lice that done the damage. Typhus and disease not the British/English. Oh I forgot Irish farmers. Read History Ireland type in Typus in Ireland.
Ray, one should not thumbs up ones own comment. It's just not cricket mate. The people who died in that act of mass murder can be directly laid on the English. For the record too, it was only one of many acts of mass murder committed by the English in Ireland.
@@Zappy9518 If I thumbed up my own comment I apologise I agree it's not cricket . I didn't realise that I had done that. I'll address your other comments when I've looked at my post and your post again thanks.
@@rayjones5771 it's a long line of massacres and English made mass starvation of the Irish as a way to defeat and destroy the people. From Elizabeth the first and all the way down to the man made mass starvation of the mid nineteenth century. Cromwell had one of his ships loaded with nothing else but scythe, not to harvest food for his army. They were to used to destroy the crops of the Irish, to strave the ordinary people as a punishment. Drogheda was a royalist town, with english born royalists but the vast majority of the citizens murdered in Drogheda were Irish. To try to compare the murder of two children in warrington to the ethnic cleansing of the irish in Ireland, are you for real. Is that the best you can do Ray, to excuse the crimes committed on the Irish, when they were already a beaten people devoid of their leadership. Really Ray, really
I accept you apology Ray,
stay safe in these times.
@@Zappy9518 Thank You and stay safe yourself all the best.
Look up Grafton, Eugenics and UCL...
Kennedy very knowledgeable and impartial. Coogan beating a drum.
He's not impartial. He doesn't want to face up to what happened. But they are both missing what really happened. It was a class thing. Even Catholic landlords shipped tons of food out of the country. While some protestant landlords went bankrupt trying to help the poor. No mention of the quakers who were the heros of the Irish famine while the Catholic church shut their doors. It was pretty simple case of racism. The landlord class wanted the land the poor lived on so they had to go. It's easy to demonize people when you want their land / labor e.g. how slavery and colonization was so easily accepted. Same thing is happening in different countries in the world today. Look at Brazil where children are going hungry while valuable land is being used to rear cattle. Where the land used for growing food for cattle could be better used growing food for people. You can't turn back the clock and right the wrongs of the past but you can think about the way you live now.
@@carmelmulroy6459 Well argued, Carmel. The more I read about the Famine, or indeed any human event, the more complex it seems. I suppose every landlord reacted in a slightly different way.
The problem is a lot of the research was done by academics who were from well off backgrounds. It was the upper classes both Catholic and protestant that took advantage of the famine and evicted their tenants to clear their land. But even before the famine the authorities over there were sayi g they wanted to get rid of the people living in Ireland and starvation would be a good method. I will have to find the quote. People back then were so racists and awful. What's worse was the Irish soldiers that went along with it. Talk about slave mentality.
@@carmelmulroy6459 I often wondered how my ancestors got through those times. They were, of course, in Kildare, Dublin and Laois, and relatively unscathed. How many people turned starving people away from their door, so that they and their families could survive.
It's so sad. Glad now there is research being done on it. Often famines aren't just the result of potato blight, famines or flooding most of the time they are man made. It's just easier to blame God than look at ourselves
Vietnam genocide is Americas shame.
bro how is this related
@@nicholasmurphy1028 It's just the usual pile on by the new breed of perfect moral humans who live among us.
My point is that Coogan is an Irish republican propagandist and not a historian, therefore his book is Irish republican propaganda rather than history.
jonoessex the only thing the English were great at was propaganda they robbed and infected everything country they everything stepped foot in I'm always so proud of our fore fathers for fighting for our independence and winning I'm so proud of Ireland a small country with a small population sent them back with there tails between there legs
Boblarry as a proud Irishman I blame for an gorta ma the British government for what happened not the ordinary person on the street ..... I am proud like all Irishmen of our independence but I blame the rulers from London not the ordinary ppl ..... at the end of the day sometime in the future the not give an inch mentality has got to stop ......
@@jonathanwhite5688 I think you should blame the geography and terrain of Ireland for the famine more than anything else.
I am a direct descendent of Irish that migrated from Munster (Cork/Tip) to London via Bristol during the famine and were part of the infamous Irish Rookeries of London in that time - what many people are forgetting is that the Poor Relief in Ireland was also non existent - there was no work either and the IRISH Land Holders literally took the roof off the tenents homes and left them to starve and freeze! It was very often the Irish land holders who sold their own tenents on lies of improved living in England and America and actually paid money towards their passage - to get rid of them! And as someone who has this heritage from the clearances of both Ireland AND Scotland ... ask yourself this - if the English wanted so many Irish dead, why is it that they freely accepted them by their thousands into all major Cities in England and gave them Poor Law Union relief ... support that was NOT available or forthcoming in Ireland?! It was England that gave the suffering Irish and Scots relief ... not Ireland! You did not see a mass migration of English people INTO Ireland during the famine in hopes of breeding out and displacing the Irish ... it was completely the other way around! You can still access the newspaper archives from the British Libraries that contain first hand reports and blow by blow accounts of the famine and its effect in England and Ireland ... this is a complex subject that deserves a cool objective assessment - not simplistic blanket accusations and finger pointing. News articles and journalists such as Mayhew recorded interviews with London Irish from the Rookeries in the 1800's and the Irish interviewed had no love of their homeland at all ... they did not blame the English or their new host nation ... they loved their families and fellows but had no love for Ireland itself ... not after how it had treated them ... that's from the horses mouths. Stop to ask yourself why that might not jive with what historians are trying to sell us today by comparison! Sowing the seeds of endless division . Kennedy is quite right ...
'Freely accepted them in their thousands in cities across England'.... probably because they are now a cheap workforce.. Across the world cultures and the spirit of the people have, and are being, squashed. Make them good corporate fodder. I would not necessarily trust newspaper archives; they could well have had Kelvin Mackenzies then!! You are right in your Kennedy quote. We just have to realise, en-masse that division is being sought/encouraged/manufactured to divide the many, by the few, for continued control of their workforce and for the continued theft of land and resources.
@@gwyneth7812 What about all the Irish girls who quietly came over England for free abortions on the NHS..the English never spoke about it so they can't be complete bastards can they?
You refer to the landlords as Irish. But they were really the British aristocracy like Viscount Palmerstone, who evicted 2000 of his tenants. Many of the landlords would have identified as British. They were often absentee landlords living in Britain. As late as 1870, 3% of farmers only 97% of the land. Landlordism of this type only came to an end with the land Acts of the late 19th and early 20th centuries whereby the landlords were forced or encouraged to sell up with loans from the British government. It was far too late for the 1 million famine dead.
How many Protestants died during the famine? No one talks about that?? Sure there was plenty of poor Protestants. Then and now. Or did they not eat potatoes? Or only ones not infected by the blight? Sort of de bunks the theory of the deliberate attempt at genocide. But sure wasnt the famine happening in Europe also. Or are the British responsible for that too?
You are totally right what happen was horrible, but like you are I am desended from parternal grandparents from Galoway, Ireland 1840s etc. I have no history via my family of what happened, surely if they had sufferd so much it would stayed with the family forever. None came. My Grandparents fropm 1840s moved to rochdale, in lancashire. How do i know because their daughter was found guilty of theft and deported to austlrialia. That is pretty bad to happend to a 16 year old. She died in tasmina in her early 30s.
Please note the family was not deported and they eventually settled in Ardwick, Manchester. The family had laid down such heavy roots members of it stil lived there over 140 years later. I was told my mother we had irish roots, but i though it was just family myths. I did not feel totally english though, so when i found out via my own research, it was true my grandparents did come from galoway in Ireland i was glad but a bit suprised as well. I also have irish ancestors from my father's side. Also i have welsh and scots ancestory from my father as well.
If the british wanted to kill off all the irish during the famine, they certainly would not stop there but would of continued in the great cities of Manchester. The latter has a big population and still does to this day, it would been easy for the governmet commit genocide in the british cities as they had direct accesss and control. It just never happened. I know because i am a live.
The “intentionality“ was anti-catholic. Check out the UA-cam channel called defeat modernism on the subject. It gets a lot deeper into it. It’s worth a listen.
Sub back to a fellow Irish man
Callous 19thC Economics. Not genocide though. One million died in English workhouses in the 1840's. Rulers then generally did not care about the poor but the idea of systematic genocide is nonsense.
Totally agree I’m Irish and have absolutely nothing against ordinary brits I like many blame the British elites like Cromwell and trevelyan and lord John Russell for the crimes against our ppl , yes ordinary brits did send to a certain extend famine relief but the government are different from ordinary man on the street yes I hate the British government for what they did and indeed one could blame trevelyan for the brits brexit woes as of late over the northern border fiasco not many brits no this , yes many brits should better know there history and there previous governments actions in Ireland and also elsewhere in the world but that said personally one to one I get on well with many ordinary brits it’s there government elites we dislike or many of us the ordinary man _ woman going there day to day business I’m fine with the government are a totally different story......
@@jonathanwhite5688 That's the point though! It was the British establishment 's Penal Laws, then their lack of care for the peasantry which they "owned"..
Good point
Not callous 19th century economics...This was Protestant predestination at work via ethnic cleansing under the guise of Classical liberalism...
Kennedy spends much time lambasting Tim Pat .. and denouncing his book and his views on the Famine .. but offers little else on his own .. the fact that an English land grab and dispossesion of the native Irish from their lands was the ultimate cause of the Famine .. without that interference the ability of the Irish to feed themselves and mitigate the effects of the failure of the potato crop .. they would have had options .. however the heavy hand of Westminster and the inherent disdain of English politicians to Ireland .. evidenced by the reams of Anit-Irish legislation, from denying the Irish a vote, to denying them to right of property to outlawing their language their religion .. these laws exist they are well recorded throughout the miserable association of England with Ireland .. these policies, attitudes and views were instrumental in providing the conditions for the Famine to reach the horror that it did. Tim Pat makes a great case for genocide on the part of the English .. Kennedy on the other hand fails to connect any of the dots and explains away a well known global tragedy - the death and displacement of millions of people. An absolute disgrace that was perpetrated by a greedy bully .. England. Really that simple ..
Kennedy has published many books on the Famine himself, far better researched and academically referenced than Coogan's piece of arsewipe trash!!
However, he was not invited onto the programme to promote his own books, but to provide balance against Coogan's diatribe and propaganda!
You clearly haven't a clue about Irish History either!
@@DonegalRaymie201 you're a bigoted wee wanker , you're all over these threads ffs , what you say about kennedys book may be true but can you seriously contradict anything this fella says about anti-irish/catholic sentiment in westminster and their attitudes to the ireland then and now ?
Yep, they committed all those terrible acts. None of which equate to genocide though.
@@liberalirishman1425 Because perpetrators very rarely provide explicit statements of genocidal intent, this intent can be uncovered by examining policies, actions, and outcomes, as well as the guiding ideology.
@Barry Clearly a sladerous comment. Outside of that, I'm just don't understand what you are trying to say. A point I would make however is the Roll of Honour for WW
Ireland was directly ruled by Britain since 1801. The British army, constabulary, and the militia forces were not in mutiny while they removed Ireland's food; they were executing orders from London. Thus the food removal was no aberration. The pattern of British genocide in Ireland had been in operation for centuries. Research the evasive response by Lord Heytesbury to the visiting group of alarmed Irishmen who had beseeched him to stop the food removal. You read how he attempted to change the subject from food removal to potatoes and blight by reading to them a paper on the latter subject. Britain's genocide in Ireland was marely one of many it perpetrated throughout its empire. It is beyond ones imagination, but to be informed one ought not blink at England's clearances in Scotland its complete take over of the African slave trade which it HQ'D in Bristol, its genocides in Africa,India,Australia especialy Tasmania where nobody survived, New Zealand, its Opium war imposing opium on China by military force, India, Bangladesh repeated during world war 2, and through its genocidal "bomber" Harris (affectionately called "butcher" by his troops) for his aerial bombing of Kurdish villages and, later his ww2 fire-bombings of German cities. It is appropriate to include Britains employment of mass murder while refastening its grip on Ireland's Counties Fermanagh,Derry,Tyrone,Antrim,Armagh and Down. Britain continues to stonewall regarding its massacres in Ballymurphy, Loughinisland, Dublin/Monaghan, Omagh, Bloody Sunday etc. and its unchanged incarcerations and tortures in Maghaberry prison. While stonewalling the demands for the prosecution of the perpertrators. The British goverment has offered 50,000 payoffs to relatives of the fourteen its soliers murdered with impunity in Derry on bloody Sunday. Britains policy of genocide is by far, the world's most long lived. It is being extended by connection to American neo-cons who have converted its once proud Republic of the US into a squalid Anglo-American-Israeli empire. The genocidal notions of England's Malthus, Lord Brougham, and Ricardo that brought so much death and destruction to Ireland and the rest of the world have been revived by disciples of Ayn Rand.
And if you connect the dots of what you wrote . . . you will discover that all is linked to the Roman Catholic Church, Vatican City (a country) where the Papacy wants to control the world. In secret, the RCC create disasters and then pretends to be part of the solution.
@@peruvianauthorities1739 Vatican City, the site of the Holy See, was made an independent, sovereign state in 1929 with the signing of the Lateran Treaties. The Vatican was not a Country in the 1840-50s though I'm sure they had a lot of influence
Yes, Vatican City did become a country in 1929. And way prior to that .... the RCC was created in the early 4th century at the time of Constantine (not a true Christian) by hi jacking “true Christianity.” By 538 AD the religious power of the RCC controlled the secular power of Europe ... and to 1798. In 1798 a French army road into Rome and took the Pope captive ... hauled him over the Alps ... back to France where he died in captivity. 1798 marked the 1260 years reign of the RCC controlling the secular power of Europe (this was referred to Adolf Hitler as the First Reich). But 1798 didn’t completely destroy the RCC. Since 1798, the RCC has been ascending back to power. Hence, the RCC became a country in 1929 giving the Pope more clout and control on the world stage and the head of the new One World Order ... which is and will be hell on earth. The world is once again heading into another Dark Age.
So you end with Britain's master plan all along was to install a Israeli Jewish take over of the most powerful country in the world.
@@sparkmanuk The alliance has always been Monarchy and Oligarchy. QUEEN Elizabeth violated her coronation oath by aligning with Vatican in this global coup. This Monarchy has been involved or i should say, helped initiate every war in our history, for Globalization.
The British bragged that"soon the presence of a Celt on the Shannon will be as rare as that of a red man in Manhattan".
@@markmaccabees They are mochara check London . My mum was Irish ☘️ I’m Scottish NEVER BRITISH
A few seemingly knock-out blows that didn't quite silence Kennedy but Coogan wins overwhelmingly on points
Tim Pat Coogan is correct in his fact findings. Ireland had no way of defending themselves from outside British Military Forces. County Wexford did their upmost to keep the imposters out. The Celtic race lives on despite the barbaric crown invasion. His-Story - your story and the TRUTH!
Catherine have you read his book, or even looked at his bibliography? He uses no fact-finding at all, his sources ae built on misinterpreting other scholars work, and even uses an eircom.net as a source for a so-called scholarly piece of work.
Go to the English archives in 1846 900.000 cattle was exported as well as wheat barley & oats & I knew that prior to TPC book bc its in the Archives
He is not correct and a poor historian
As I said before There is a strong case to be made for the charge of genocide.However it is after 150+ years of neglect now to late decide conclusively. But what can in my opinion very clearly be deduced is that british rule in ireland regardless of motive was and remained a disaster for the irish.
Well I got to say as Irish American Those that did this horrible thing to The Irish People back in the past. They have to Face God on Judgment Day of This Horrible Crime. No Human Being Should be treated like this. The world needs to know this so this doesn't happen again
Éirinn go Brách...Éirinn go Brách...Éirinn go Brách...Éirinn go Brách...Éirinn go Brách...
Il purchase the book to support Tim and to stick it to Liam. its funny that Liam is literally the only person I have heard with this attitude toward the whole situation that took place. It takes little imagination to think that the carry on in the good old days was typical for this time. its OK to see it as how it was. This kind of political strategy and carnage was happening all over the world. Why is it so hard to believe that the British were deliberately trying to cull the Irish populous and take their land? As far as I am aware the Brits hated the Irish to the core. forgive me for saying this but the Irish didn't starve themselves! lol Jesus like.
Cooligan should of started from the Flight of the Earls, as thousands of Irish died as they were kicked off their land
all of the same evidence and facts listed by ogrady/ograda..The role of the historian is as you agree not to interpret intent '' such as murdereous intent'' in the case of genocide but uncover facts. Thats done by lawyers as happened at nuremberg. And is happening today in Den Haag. There is a case to answer and shouting wont change that.
Around 70-300 million British subjects died in Famines that occurred on regular cycles, it didn't effect the White Protestants Saxons, India and Ireland for example have never had a famine since gaining independence from the British
in other words the English continuously used famine as a political weapon of choice against their rebellious subjects.
Ironically so called historians give credit to the Brits for alleviating the famine ( in India, for example) English politicians created on their own ( professor Burton F.Beers)
talk about historical revisionism.
British never really alleviated any famine, there is huge amount of proof of mass murder in their colonial empire against Non-Saxon and non-Anglicans .
Things like irrigation , and clean water systems collapsed when the British took over it colonial possessions and never improved.
You can Google that and probably find 200-700 written Primary and Secondary accounts from British officials alone during the British Empire period.
So unless people don't need water, and food you are right.
re alleviating famine : on that I'm quoting Burton Beers ( whose 80's era high school textbook served as an important propaganda tool for anglo-american elites ) i.e, his spin on the British imposed famine policy in India.
let the markets decide and the markets will work it out it. did
it got rid of 1.5 mil people left or died
you should read the book not simply quote a blurb
Re: Slavery. Youre quite wrong both here. In both the W. Indies and Sri Lanka slavery was replaced by systems of compulsory and unpaid labor. Slavery by a new name. You really should read more than the standard Anglophile writings.
are u trying to start another fight. i mean why not go and enjoy the good weather. However if u want a fight We should have as next item the horrible plantation and the self serving protestant myths around 1641. right now i'm working. well having coffee.
''All ireland was a Belsen'' AJP Taylor.
And the lesson is that regardless of intent British rule in Ireland was a disaster.
cont'd. but i do think that the famine was such a traumatic event that the irish have a very huge reluctance to consider the full implications. and there is a good deal of evidence that famine was genocidal. proving it either way after a 150 years of neglect must be impossible. But part of that neglect was caused by the political bias( give no succour to irish.republicanism) of some of the very historians who critize TP Coogans book.
respectfully yours
your fetishe for Academia is obsessive. What is at issue is not a matter of historical perspectives. We all by now know what happened during the famine. What is undecided is the intent of the authorities. was it murderous and in evaluating intent an historians opinion is just that an opinion. O'Gradys eg is of the opinion that no such intent existed. But law is not his field. And he did himself as an historian a disservice by expressing a Legal Opinion when he has no qualification to do so.
The myth of the lazy native. Syed Hussein Alatas. Its a classic. History is not just wriiten by inperialist running-dogs. Follow up the aforementioned with Culture and Imperialism, Said.
But you'll have to buy your own copies as i still need mine.
do your own reading
If the lands had all been taken and everyone one was dead who would work the land for the rich land owners, your not going to bring people in who work for less than an Irish farm labour at the time, the farms fail theirs no tax revenue or food exports. I think the whole British policy was one of greed profits are always the driving force.