Hydrogen-Electric powered boat! Can we get this on our new sailboat? | EP 204
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- We're building a new boat and looking into various propulsion systems including the possibility of an electric drive.
We meet the Energy Observer which is travelling around the world demonstrating the possibilities of hydrogen fuel. They are powering all ships systems, including cooking, navigation and even powering the electric motors that drive her through the water with electricity. The electricity is collected in her solar panels which cover every bit of her wide decks. The power is stored in batteries, and also in compressed hydrogen. It's the hydrogen that makes her so interesting.
00:36 Tour of the Energy Observer
04:34 What is the Energy Observer
05:23 How does Hydrogen Compare to Other Fuels
08:15 Why not just use solar panels and batteries?
09:36 Could hydrogen replace diesel fuel?
10:24 What's the best solution for sailboats?
11:44 Is hydrogen the fuel of the future?
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The crew of the Energy Observer
www.energy-obs...
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About
Paul and Sheryl Shard are award-winning travel documentary television producers and videographers who have been cruising internationally since 1989 documenting their global adventures for television, social media, in books and sailing publications. They have sailed over 110,000 nm including 9 ocean crossings and are the producers and presenters of the Distant Shores sailing adventure TV series which is broadcast to 47 million households in 24 languages around the world (AWE, Nautical Channel, ACCTV, ShineTV). Through their TV programs, UA-cam videos, articles/blogs and popular cruising seminars, the Shards help anyone dreaming of setting sail to get out on the water and experience their own adventure safely and comfortably.
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Battery density is increasing but what comes to mind is to use the weight in the design of the boat. Using the batteries as keel ballast much the way Tesla is moving with their batteries as a structural part of their automobile frame.
Really smart.... we still are to far.... 😥 I hope in the future...
“Sailing Uma” has been all electric for years. All done on a budget and slowly upgrading when funds permit. Hydrogen fuel cell tech sounds interesting.
I was going mention Uma then saw this comment. Dan and Kika's set up does have limitations, however. Their electric drive can only be used at full speed for a couple hours. At only 3 Kn I think it can last for 5 or 6 hours. But imagine a dead calm where you have to fight a 3 Kn current to get someplace 6 kilometers away. They do have a gasoline powered outboard for their dinghy (Coco) so in an emergency they could probably tow Uma with her.
I was just about to make the same comment!
They (Uma) do pollute in other ways. They got fed up with their composting toilet and now their sewage dumps straight out, even at dock.
There's also silent power yachts making solely solar powered craft. They seem to be doing exceedingly well. and the 60 only has 17Kw of solar too. So I can't see how 35Kw on this thing isn't enough... Well I can begin to see why... All the tech on board probably.
@@HandyC generating the hydrogen gas is a huge power suck. It takes almost twice the amount of energy to produce one unit of hydrogen power. The solar and wind farms needed to supply ships with “green hydrogen” would be a massive and expensive undertaking. I don’t see it happening any time soon.
As mention there is Sailing Uma, also rigging doctor and a couple more that’s electric. It’s not a matter of can it be done it’s more why are the general “you” not doing it. Sailboats are the perfect vessel to go all electric as the motor is the secondary propulsion. Yanmar is close to commercialising their hydrogen system, based on the energy observe in conjunction with Toyota, there is also a hydrogen generator in the works. The interesting thing is the generation of hydrogen using your excess solar, this together with say the hydrogen generator sounds perfect
Question is not, can it be done. Question is, what are you willing to give up? Electric cars are not new. In the early days of cars, they were there with Model T. But the negatives sides were more than the positive ones. Now companies like Tesla proved, an electric car can be exiting and have a decent range. So the average boat owner don’t want to compromise too much for electric drive systems and deal with the problems around it. The average boat owner is not a full time UA-camr that sails. More often they use the boat maybe 2-4 weeks in a year. Then they want to go places and don’t wait for perfect weather to go. I agree, hydrogen is a good direction compared to battery only. That’s why I invested in different hydrogen related startups. I also ordered a truck with hydrogen cell.
Also Sunreef with their eco line went electric/hybrid.
VPLP & PI Superyachts has a "blue box" on their Dragoship 25 concept build which has been available for a long time ("I'veheard of a Superyacht", really?). It seems boats powered by the wind only makes sense to have diesel engines. Makes little sense. Also, this is a sailboat through the use of the advanced wing sails and in his explanation on the power needs piece he failed to mention it. In fact, he goes on to speak of sailboats as if they were in a different category. What the.... You might want to research your material a bit better
Wow, you know nothing is "all green" depending on how you look at it. Referencing a house? Even a PassivHaus rating requires the use of many "technologies/methods" to achieve. The Energy Observer demonstrates this reality by using wind (wingsails, wind turbines, or their kite), hydro (props & engines as generators or the system being discussed), sun (solar panels), energy storage (batteries & fuel cells).
Y'all reference people who have tried batteries and solar and may chose against wind (which tends to happen around Cloud development or sailing) because of the noise, hydro (because they might lose some average speed or its current design limitations with add ons).
No single system is going to solve all your needs and if you need a plethora of TVs, A/C, Refrigerators, Dishwasher, Washing Machine running 24/7 maybe one should consider living on land and not talk energy efficiency anyways because your not going to survive off the grid either.
P.S. I have my land place in some foot hills with no city utilities and have a small water trailer to get even that. Life can have indulgences but simplicity is where it's at. I've seen some true live-a-boards on the UA-cam scene and you see their plants-a-growing on their boat!!!
@Aus L 😇 I'm on the side of expectations in that so many of the comments talk about this "one" technology as if it is supposed to be the "bread & butter", the magic pill or why batteries/electric won't work and I should have made it its own post as it wasn't meant for a specific response (I was lazy).
Personally, I'm not sure I'm Comfortable with something holding that much pressure and I come from the Biomedical Equipment Engineering Technology side of fixing things and some time spent in Manufacturing (some places just don't have room for things to go boom) 😱. But the ability to concentrate that much energy with minimal weight penalty sure looks tempting.
I'm in the planning/prepping phase looking at what project boat i want to chose while finalizing my budget and would prefer a performance cruiser (trimaran if I'm lucky), solar, lithium, electric engines, and hydro regeneration. And in place of the wind generator i would use a sealed vibrational generator to eliminate that blade noise. Oh yeah, and a it would be a Ketch Rig for several reasons unless those wing sail things become a lot cheaper.
Fun discussion. Enjoy!!!
The main problem with hydrogen is that it takes a tremendous amount of energy to split H2O molecules into oxygen and hydrogen. As you can see here, they can only make 2-4 KG of hydrogen in a day with all that solar on the boat. That's just not practical for the vast majority of applications.
There seems to be two possible paths for hydrogen. The dirty path, which is often behind some hydrogen projects. That's remodeling the oil industry: drilling to gas/diesel fuel changed to oil drilling to conversion to hydrogen, the second path as represented by the Energy Observer and explained by Paul near the end is stationary solar/wind power generating so much surplus energy that it can be used for electrolysis to extract the hydrogen from water.
The first path does almost nothing for global warming but reduces pollution at the vehicle (boat in this case), the second path is carbon net zero.... I think like what happened to electric cars 110 years ago: the gas cars were so immediately superior (gas was cheap and range was much much greater) they didn't have a chance. I think they had a range of 10 miles. Right now electric cars - like my Tesla - are so economically superior to the hydrogen option, hydrogen will either be only a niche somewhere, or it will have to wait for the massive overproduction of alternative source electricity or it may simply never happen. The best take away from this video is that 62 kg of Hydrogen = 14 tons of batteries. As Tesla conquers the world, that relationship won't change, but perhaps someday the economics of producing and distributing hydrogen may.
Not only the production of hydrogen is a problem, the storage is one too. Hydrogen is the smallest element we know. So, no tank is able to hold all of the hydrogen you fill in it. Some hydrogen will defund through the material of which the tank is made of and is lost.
@Keith M Today electrolysis has an efficiency of about 70% to 80%. So, 20% to 30% loss is about what you mentioned what the system can save... Do the math - these systems are not economically...
@Keith M I've looked into HHO extensively. The laws of thermodynamics says it wont work. Every person who claims to have created an HHO system that works, has failed to show a working product when challenged.
In other words, I don't believe you. Since I have extensively reviewed the claims for myself, and since it is my experience that those who believe perpetual motion (by way of HHO, or any other means) cannot be persuaded that their viewpoint is wrong, I feel it is a waste of my time to comment on any further demonstrably false arguments you might have.
I wont be discussing this any further.
When the ship is docked in a harbor (which is most of the time) that’s when hydrogen production is valuable. When you leave the dock, you could have a full tank.
Before I retired, I built prototypes for an on-demand hydrogen generator that used sea water and low-grade heat to make the needed hydrogen. Storage tanks are not needed, saving weight, space, cost, and leakage. Cost of fuel made was about 1% of electrolytic hydrogen = game changer! Don’t hold your breath, but when the scaling up phase is done, hydrogen will get exciting in numerous segments of transportation.
Good afternoon sir, can I ask where to find out about the hydrogen extraction technology you are using?
Holy crap! When I saw the thumbnail I knew you were going to be talking about EO, but I didn't think you'd actually be physically on EO! Man, that boat is amazing, and EODev is pushing boundaries! My dream catamaran is a hydrogen boat based heavily on the concepts of EO. I've spent MANY hours over the last 8ish months diving deep into it (way more hours than a full time job, lol) and I'm super excited... Now I just need a boatload (lol) of cash to actually make it happen.
Amazing technology that surely will be part of sailing.
Silent yachts had a boat run on solar that crossed the atlantic, but they had a back up diesel generator.
There’s another yacht maker named Aquone which does solar and hydrogen. Not sure when their first boat will be produced though.
This whole business of powering a live-aboard sailboat has been on my mind a lot. For coastal cruising in remoter regions, such as the BC coastline, one still needs dense energy solutions. Deep up a fjord, wind generators are unable to produce reliably steady power and solar abilities are both seasonal and weather dependent. The smaller the boat, the more difficult it becomes to get enough solar onboard as well as generally being unable to get even a small diesel generator installed. As such, I think the problem domain for even a coastal sailor planning to be on the hook for weeks at a time is significant.
Currently, I think a 38-40' boat with a wind generator, solar and a diesel genset is still the most likely form of power for the boat. For propulsion, it's also quite a hard call. The space you gain by getting rid of a diesel engine and using electric propulsion is great for adding LiFePo4 storage, but the whole setup is going to be a very expensive proposition for a conversion. And even then, one may be needing to run the diesel genset quite a bit just to keep the batteries in good nick. Smaller, slower boats won't really be able to do much regen through the prop.
It will be interesting to see how hydrogen marine solutions end up scaling over time. Obviously, the tech will initially find its way to bigger platforms, but it'll eventually find its way to the recreational realm. The question is, however: How long will Big Oil fight the efforts of alternative energy tech to maintain Big Oil's hold on fuel?
I’m in transportation and have talked to drivers who transported Hydrogen. I was told that even a tiny leak would be catastrophic and grounding is paramount. The friction of the leak would light it off.
Remember the Hindenburg!!!!
What is important to understand is that no single component does all the work. Several sources of energy production are necessary (solar, wind, regen, hydrogen, batteries, etc). Ocean Observer is vital because it is designed as a test bed so all the systems are tested all the time in "real time". It is proof of concept as a patent attorney might say. Thank you.
You have probably followed UMA. They have sailed the east coast of the US. Crossed the N Atlantic, sailed Europe and have now been nearly a year in Norway. They are now N of Norway by about 600 miles in Svalbard, about 10 degrees south of the North Pole. There big robust expeditionary yacht is a 1972 Pearson 36’ coastal cruiser! All done with no diesel. They have an electric motor with lithium and regen prop. They have no propane either, everything is electric: Watermaker, cooking refrigerator, etc. Clever and amazing people.
A leak in a hydrogen line can catch fire due to friction/static. In daylight it's almost impossible to see as the flame is so clear and clean burning. We looked for leaks in hydrogen lines with IR cameras. It takes a lot of energy to produce hydrogen so unless we have some breakthroughs in technology, I don't see this source of energy being viable for the average boater anytime soon. I do hope people keep experimenting though.
very interesting for small scale use. The remark about partnering with container liners however seems a bit utopian, especially when ballparking just how much wind- and solarfarms would be needed to recharge a single cargoship, let alone all ships visiting a major port.
On the other side is seems that hydrogen systems are a lot more environmentally and humanly friendly than electric battery systems
I wonder how they feel during a lightning storm sitting in a vessel full of explosive gas. I'd like to see their grounding system. I tested grounding systems as part of my job (before I retired).
Interesting comment Tom. I asked about fire/explosion and they pointed out the compartment where hydrogen is stored is open to the air on the stern side. And since it’s so light it will disperse up.
It's amazing that this was not brought up by the hydrogen boat folks. It looks like this boat (or are there more than one?) has multiple masts for its "wing-like" sails. Plus being soooo electric a lightening strike would surely do lots of damage. And since a lightening strike can be (literally) explosive, then hydrogen tanks could be ruptured during such a strike. It's not hard to imagine that boat being in a million pieces after a lightening strike! Scott W
PS - I bet no one is allowed to smoke on that boat!
@@scyz2807 They've talked about it in other interviews. Like mentioned in the previous reply, they mount the hydrogen vessels outside of the boat (though covered) in a position where any venting hydrogen can more easily disperse, and away from the sails in case it does ignite.
The hydrogen itself in the tanks is not explosive, it's only once combined with oxygen that it becomes explosive, however the saturation level at which it becomes explosive is quite low, so a leak could be a huge fire risk, but at the pressures that hydrogen has to be stored at, there is basically zero risk of the tank exploding. You could get one hell of a flame thrower at the leak point, but the flame would not travel back into the vessel simply because the lack of oxygen would prevent that, along with the several thousand lbs of pressure preventing oxygen from entering and mixing with the hydrogen.
The biggest risk is a slow leak that goes undetected that allows hydrogen to collect and mix to a flammable level, which is why EO stores the hydrogen externally. Fuel cell cars (Toyota Mirai being the most prominent) also face this same risk, but even higher with a much greater risk of collision damage to the storage vessel, and I don't believe that any of those have blown up, or even resulted in a catastrophic fire (technically putting them above battery electric vehicles for safety, but that's irrelevant).
Hydrogen transportation is not new either. The vast majority of hydrogen is transported on trucks and even in the event of accidents, the equipment has safety components and factors specifically to address the dangers which have decades of safe real world use. Hydrogen and hydrogen fuel cell technology actually has an incredible track record of safe and effective use going back half a century (spacecraft have used hydrogen fuel cells for power since the Gemini program, iirc).
The biggest hurdle to hydrogen is twofold right now
1. Production - Currently almost all hydrogen is "brown"/"Grey" hydrogen that is produced from fossil fuels and releases quite a lot of CO2, and therefore is not *really* green. Next is "Blue" hydrogen which is much less impactful, capturing the produced CO2, however it is much less cost effective, as the extra process of capturing and dealing with the CO2 is complicated and expensive.I believe that hydrogen produced via electrolysis, but using non-renewable power source to do so is considered "blue". Then we have "Green" which electrolysis powered by renewable power, this is the only truly eco-friendly source, and consequently most costly method of getting hydrogen.
2. Efficiency - It takes roughly 55kw of power to purify, electrolyze, and compress 1kg of hydrogen right now. At 100% efficiency 1kg of hydrogen stores around 33kw of power, so even if fuel cells were perfectly efficient it would only come out to around 60% efficiency. Unfortunately the best fuel cells are around 55% efficient, meaning you can extract a bit over 18kw from 1kg of hydrogen. This can be increased by utilizing the waste heat for something, however many applications simply don't have enough need for that much heat (imagine 150 100watt incandescent light bulbs running at the same time. You could bake a cake with that), so there are limits depending on your application. That leaves us at a final efficiency of a system around 33%. Technically speaking this is actually more efficient than gasoline or diesel, particularly when you account for the production side of the equation, as gasoline and diesel engines are only about 30-40% efficient at extracting energy from dino squeezings, but still not ideal, particularly for an application like a boat that might need to produce its own hydrogen such as is the case with EO. EO is unique in that they can fit an amount of solar production massive enough to make this efficiency loss workable simply by having far more than enough solar power generation and using the excess to produce hydrogen for deep storage. In a practical, real world "normal person" use case, such as a cruising boat, fitting enough solar to power a boat without electric motors can be quite challenging, and fitting enough to have meaningful excess that can be used to produce hydrogen means that the boat has to be designed specifically for that goal. Catamarans are the best cruising platform for that simply because they have so much more real estate available for solar panels, so these will be the first consumer level self-producing hydrogen boats we see.
I myself have spent the last 8 months of my live working on designing one, and wish I had the many millions of dollars it would take to go from napkin sketches and playing around in fusion 360 to factory turning the industry on its head. If I wont the lottery this would be what I would do with it.
@@FlesHBoX Thank you for your reply. I want to be an one of the first crew members on your Hydrogen powered Cat after you win that lottery 😁👍
I was a High Voltage Test Technician, now retired and looking for warmer weather than Upstate New York.
@@FlesHBoX Thanks for all the information.
This kind of applied research is very important to learning how to optimise all of the systems involved to get the necessary results. I think we're slowly closing in on solutions as performance and efficiency of all the subsystems are improved over time.
What I find more interesting in this comment is the use of plural in solutions. Nowadays combustion engines is the go-to solution but it seems that tomorrow solutions are going to be a lot more tailor-made to the types of vessel and their applications. Hybridisation of all sorts, mixing multiple energy sources is quite likely.
@@jean-jacqueslavigne3109 indeed. I don't have any connections with those who designed or are sailing the boat but breakthroughs in engineering are rarely the result of just one factor. Solar panels are getting better, as are motors, electronics and management controls. I believe all of these factors together will yield the hoped for revolution in yachting.
@@ttystikkrocks1042 exactly. There is more innovation now than in the last 120 years, undoubtedly. So many options, angles to look at. Even for non-sail vessels, propulsion and power are no longer a consideration limited to below the deck - FYI we are completing the design of a non-sail research vessel (Earth 300)- and we even looking at way to generate power -and reducing power requirements- through the paint etc
I did my own calculations and I'm not sure about the 100 Kw/h battery pack.
3-4 kg/day
100 Kw batteries
1.5 Tonnes lithium polymer batteries
62 kg hydrogen full tank
14 Tonnes
14 T = 62 kg hydrogen
Hardingenergy com
245 to 430 W/Kg
LiPo 430 W/Kg (at best)
430*1500
645000 W = 645 KWh/1.5 Tonnes
245 W/Kg (Lowest)
245*1500 = 367500 = 367 KWh/1.5 Tonnes
14 Tonnes batteries = 62 kg hydrogen
245*14000 = 3430000 Wh hydrogen power
3430 KWh hydrogen power
RMI org
energy density of hydrogen is equal to 33.6 kWh of usable energy per kg
33.6 * 62 kg
2083 KWh = 62 kg hydrogen = 14 Tonnes batteries
2083/14 = 148.78 = 149 KWh / Tonnes batteries
1.5*149 = 223.5 KWh =1.5 Tonnes
223500/1500 = 149 Wh / Kg
What’s the relative efficiency comparison between storing power to battery and then using that power compared to storing power to hydrogen and then converting it back to electricity
A fuel cell is roughly 50% efficient in converting the energy potential of hydrogen into electricity; this number can be tweaked but increases in efficiency carry the penalties of cost, size and complexity. I'm not sure what the efficiency of converting electricity into hydrogen night be but any physicist or engineer will tell you that nothing happens for free.
So i am stuck at home in Sydney Australia due to this virus that is not giving up so i am getting a bit of envy watching the video which i would like to thankyou for producing. So the video has inspired me add a few commits my area of expertise is in batteries and alternative energy technology.
Unfortunately as you have witnessed the technology in batteries and solar is not there yet for boating due to available size and weight constraints.
There is a company in Western Australia (ATC.ASX) is working in a process on the coating of silicone with pure alumina in theory to stabilise the silicone at a 30% mix in lithium based batteries. The silicone can greatly increase the storage capacity of a lithium battery and with a stable 30% mix of silicone would increase the capacity by approximately 50% compared to a present standard NCM mix.
In the labs at the moment they are developing multi layer / multi frequency solar cells that can charge with an increased efficiency compared to existing single frequencies solar panel.
Hydrogen still worry's me due to we do not have an endless supply of water compared to the sun.
A 100 years ago people would only have been focusing on the technology and would not have given a thought that fossils would be such a problem in the future. So what will future generations think about this technology of breaking down a limited time frame resource for an energy source when there are other technology's are coming and improving all the time. Governments will love hydrogen due to they can hit the supply chain with tax compared to the sun which is free at the moment until governments can work out how to tax that too!
Hydrogen has issues of
% efficiencies of motors
% efficiencies of manufacturer but this may improve
% using a source of energy that is not unlimited
An Australian based company (GEV.ASX) is at present designing a pilot hydrogen power ship for the export of hydrogen, thought you would to google
regards
The newer Oceanvolt motor with Servoprop is a game changer for fast sailboats.
Yes I think Jimmy Cornell has one of those and is going to get a second for his Elcano catamaran. I agree with you Dave it could be a game-changer
Another interesting thing about solar boats are the thin rigid sails that give little shading. These don't seem to have solar panels on themselves like other boats I have seen like the Solar Sailor but this boat also used a kite-like downwind sail at one time to avoid shading the panels.
I believe Russia with their new Nuclear reactor that they have announced and which leaves no radio-active residue will be a powerful machine to produce large volumes of Hydrogen. So, you are definitely on the right track...Perhaps you should consider electrifying your new boat as SV UMA did, using lithium for the moment and upgrading to fuel cells when the main fuel becomes more wide spread and affordable. Perhaps also putting more thoughts on making your new boat less heavy, adding induction cooking etc....maybe a full keel instead of retractable mechanism would make it simpler....Just some thoughts!
You have definitely a better angle for your show from now on!
Many followers will join your channel!
Well done
Cheers
Why not a mix of it all? Electric engine for propulsion and for regenerating while under sail. Solar panels and a wind generator to generate energy too. Store energy in lithium batteries and any excess energy gets converted to hydrogen. Downside of that setup is you might run out of juice if it's overcast and low wind. So you add a diesel generator for those situations, so in a pinch you have a diesel-electric boat. Upside is flexibility. Solar and wind recharges the batteries and hydrogen while at anchor. Solar, wind and prop regen recharges batteries and hydrogen while under sail. And you can run the generator while at a dock with easy access to diesel or when you need to motor in the middle of nowhere and the hydrogen is running low.
So, Hydrogen has two main advantages over Batteries. 1) the storage medium is WAY lighter, and 2) "refueling" (charging?) times can be WAY shorter. In pretty much every other way, Hydrogen is worse. Comparing the weight of the Hydrogen to the weight of the battery is dumb at best and fraudulent at worst. You have to compare the weight of all systems required for it to work. The Batteries require 1) charge controllers (95% efficient, small, light, solid state), and 2) cables (98% efficient) while losing about 10% to internal resistance for about 84% round trip efficiency of the system. That's pretty much it. The Hydrogen requires an electrolysis device (75% efficient, is much larger and heavier than an equivalent capacity charge controller, is mechanically complex (pumps, valves, through hulls), and is holding corrosive sea water, 2) compressor (90% efficient, is mechanically complex, is safety critical (compressing a highly flammable gas to high pressure), 3) tanks and valves (100% efficient if not leaking) but the tanks are heavier than the fuel, 4) fuel cell (60% efficient, weighs twice that of an equivalent power diesel engine) for about 40% round trip efficiency of the system. No wonder they can't move and produce Hydrogen at the same time. Their battery weight is also excessive. Tesla's 85kWh battery pack weighs 1200lb, indicating that 100kWh should weigh 1412lb, not 1.5 tonnes (they are French) or 3300lb. Also consider the relative safety risk of Hydrogen which causes embrittlement of metal, is odorless, colorless, tasteless, is an extremely small molecule so is difficult to contain, is under high pressure, and is highly flammable over a very wide range of fuel to air ratios. People who won't have propane tanks inside the boat are really going to freak out about Hydrogen. Stating Hydrogen fueled ranges as a function of speed while not stating the kWh expended (easily monitiored by the engine controller) really paints a rosy picture. Power required is directly proportional the the speed cubed. Slowing down a little saves a lot of power, whether it comes from Hydrogen or batteries. So, where does Hydrogen beat batteries? When power required is very low when compared to the total energy required (very long endurance), when refueling times are pretty important, and when the cost of energy going in is significantly less important. So, think multifunctional buoys, remote weather or radio stations that can't do solar, etc.
Great video, again with highly interesting information!👍👏
Many years ago I was told by a former German officer serving during WWII that they developed a successful prototype submarine with the technology on board to divide water into oxygen and hydrogen and theoretically capable to stay underwater for ever. If I remember right, they used some type of algae. Wonder if those blueprints are hiding somewhere in Argentina.
Happy to see the exploration of alternate fuels in the sailing sector. 🌎💙
Sailing Uma is full electric. But they are some times restricted because of the range. Right now, actually
This is very interesting topic. My forthcoming build is definitely going to have electric propulsion. That’s kind of starting point. The completion of the boat is still years ahead so there may be some technical development happening during this time. Anyway, living and cruising here in very north kind of makes it necessary to have some kind of fuel in the boat. In winter there’s no sunshine and it’s cold. For now I’m thinking of having reasonable sized battery bank and diesel generator and heater on the side. Hot water is easy to get directly from the sun.
But for the electric propulsion in general, with experience of 1,5 seasons with one there’s one thing that should be remembered. Speed. With electric propulsion and limited capacity it becomes clear how much the cruising speed affects to the consumption. With my 27 footer , 3 knots is kind of reasonable maximum speed to go. After that the consumption will rise rapidly without mentionable gain of speed. And from other sources I’ve got info that this applies to bigger boats as well.
As Paul mentioned in video, you can gain a lot of range by slowing the boat down. This applies very much with electric propulsion as well.
So in order to use electricity as power source, we have to change our perspective to sailing as well. The sailing aspect will come bigger and motoring will and should be marginal.
I think that graphene batteries, and possible graphene desalination could be real game changers. Apparently the power required to generate the pressure required for reverse osmosis desalination is high than you'd think. Graphene allows for lower pressure, and energy expenditure to get the same water. Graphene batteries will also be significantly lighter, and almost completely eliminate the rare earth metals required in lithium batteries. They are still a number of years from being cost efficient on an energy density basis, but it shows a lot of promise for a material we only discovered in 2016. What do you think?
Interesting and well done as usual.
Would be interesting to see the efficiency they get from solar powered H2 production compared to the H2 fuelcell efficiency, i'm sure the operation runs at quite a big lost.
One final note, let's not make confusion about Hydrogen cars because there are cars actually running Internal Combustion engines on H2 or intermixed with petrol and not using for fuel cells
After 20 years of hype in the auto market, hydrogen fuel cells have not worked commercially. Does anyone know why they’d succeed in boats? (I’d be the BIGGEST supporter. I ask only to understand the likelihood of this actually happening.)
Thank you for the great video.
FYI:
UK is building a liquid air battery using green energy to compress air into liquid and store it. When energy is needed, the stored air is released forming a gas that powers a turbine. The turbine then uses some of the energy to convert air to a liquid for storage. This was reported by The Guardian on June 18, 2020. The title of the article is "Climate emission killer: construction begins on world's largest liquid air battery." This battery is due to be placed into service in 2022, able to power 200,000 homes.
Thank you, I enjoy your videos and they are very inspiring.
However, I think you need to make the core concept of this boat more explicit as such: "the perpetual cruiser"
1) Hydrogen is a storage mechanism, and the weight for power ratio vs batteries is favorable.
2) Power is generated in real-time by a LOT of solar panels, and this can effectively create enough average power to move the boat indefinitely, or this is at least the project goal
3) Beyond immediate needs (propulsion) the solar panels charge the batteries until full, and then produce hydrogen to store in these special tanks
The overall picture is the key. This is not a boat that you stop and plug-in somewhere to refuel or recharge. If you run out of stored power, you can simply wait and it will charge up via the sun. Given sensible power storage management, one can cruise indefinitely.
i've been kind of circle around these renewal energy for the past few weeks, and i feel the best way is to have multiple energy sources. it does not make sense to have just one source of energy flowing on the ocean and expect it to be enough. my ideal solution would be sail or kite system utilizing the wind, and hydro generation while sailing. then of course solar + lithium battery would be a big part of energy source and a back up propulsion solution. as for hydrogen sounds great and all, but having a hydrogen conversion system onboard would be a exhausting.
I just cruised down and back up the Atlantic coast in a 36' sailboat with a 15kw electric inboard and a 6hp tohatsu sailpro outboard in a converted lazaret locker. Worked just fine, but limited top speed to 4.3 knots under gas of which we carry 24gallons. All things in moderation I say.
I read that a fuel cell tug boat was going to be hitting the Mississippi river some time next year. Hydrogen really is the way forward, all these electric cars are a pipe dream. People have been trying to make all electric feasible for over 100 years and they are no closer to replacing the internal combustion engine than I am to growing gills and becoming Aquaman.
Thanks for your comment, Mad Rabbit. You may be right but the experiments are interesting and who knows where they may lead.
For a yacht the prime mover is (surprise!) it's sails. We motor for two reasons, for close maneuvering and to get some where in a hurry.
On board solar and wind can generate enough for propulsion (plus some regen under sail) but not for extended motoring. For local sailing into a marina it's OK but Hydrogen is only practical if it can be generated on shore.
The real question is "Do I want to get there quicker or wait for the wind, just as boats of old had to do?"
How about just sailing - ships sailled for hundreds of years without any engines (a few still do), we have far better weather forecasting than they ever did. Bottom line is that the lazy sailing of using diesel is going to have to end.
those days the crew also rowed to pull the ships into harbor and up river
@@thetruthasanamerican1249 in some places for larger ships (Because it made sense if you were crossing half the world to have a larger ship) just like we have tugs now (although the scale was alot smaller). but most smaller boats of yacht size would be sailled in and out, tied up using warps or often dried out for loading/unloading and canals used to move stuff inland. Because everyone was sailing moorings were more spread out and it was easier to do it then than it would be at the moment but the change in infrastructure adapted to the people using it. There are still a few people sailing around without engines.
We are an electric-powered 1983 Bristol 35 sailboat, limited by the distance we can motor, essentially being a pure-sailing yacht, spending the hurricane system upgrading our house batteries to 600 amp/hrs of Lithium so we can sit in anchorages running our watermaker, frig and so on even if the day is overcast.
Nice Rauf! Did you find enough space onboard to recharge your batteries via solar power?
@@DistantShoresTV We have 4 X 200 amp batteries wired in series for 48-volt propulsion in engine compartment, charging on prop-regeneration when sailing at 5 knots. Our house bank has 475 Watts of solar, nest on bimini and dodger, eventually storing energy in 2 X 300 amp batteries wired in parallel for 600 amps of electrical storage. Rain Finger has enough space onboard for this system.
Can propellers be installed on the side of the haul that will turn and generate electricity with the water when immersed and wind when lifted above water to feed batteries as the boat is sailing? What happened to Alcyone, Jack Custeau's inventions fitted with computers to optimize the functioning of Turbosails and engines. To maintain a constant speed, the engines take over automatically when the wind dies down, then they stop completely when the wind is strong and from the right direction.
How do they compress the hydrogen and how do they deal with hydrogen leaks? Hydrogen is a very small atom and it leaks through everything.
Compressing the hydrogen up above 300bar I think is part of the quite complex production system. I didn’t know about the leak problem. Theirs seems to be working well
Sealing hydrogen has been done for a long time but boat life serves its challenges. Electrolysis strips the oxygen and hydrogen apart, the bond between them is very strong and takes a lot of electricity to break it. Hence why it takes a while to recharge the tanks. Btw is awesome they can do that on a boat and compress it down into the tanks at 300 bar. Wicked.
I would wait a few years until solar panels are a bit more efficient, batteries can hold more power, and are cheaper. Then between wind and solar, it should be enough to last.
Hydrogen is a no go, complicated and highly inefficient. Use same drive as Uma for high regen output and cover the boat in solar panels. As time goes add more batteries! Greetings from Ottawa!
Great job on explaining all of that. You guys always do a wonderful job. I appreciate all your videos. Thank you and keep up the good work.
Wish to be alive (and still having a sailboat) when this hydrogen systems come to me, normal mortal, and to my middle size boat. Thank you for an interesting episode!
In the case of a sailing boat I think solar and hydro generation (prop in the water spinning the motor to generator) is more than enough.
Hydrogen is being pushed hard by people like Toyota but it's horribly inefficient and we are a long way from generating hydrogen from renewables at any scale. Almost all hydrogen used now is from Steam reformation of natural gas which is mostly CH4, aka methane. This releases carbon into the atmosphere which combines with oxygen to become co2.
They are talking about technology to capture that carbon but again its a long way off.
Battery and solar technology is advancing fast as well as aquatic electric drive systems.
Watched the documentary on this boat.They try to convince you that lithium batteries weigh more than hydrogen but they don't tell how much thr tanks weigh.....
2.5 kg of hydrogen goes in a 40 liter the size of a scuba tank which weighs around 18-25kg.
Since we have 62+ kg of hydrogen we will need at least 26 tanks at 21kg each, that is 550kg in just tanks. Now we need compressors, 100-200kg each, electrolysis machines 100-300kg each, high pressure piping throughout the ship to the tanks, safety equipment, and the fuel cells to create electricity.
If we look at all the weight, we get somewhere in the range of 2000-2500kg for the system.
A 5kw lithium battery weighs 45kg. So we are getting around 200kw in batteries at the same weight. These wont blow up if they get a leak, have zero maintenance and are easy to add to in the future.
Also your average home only uses 1000kw a month. But we are on a boat that needs to move and the boat only make 40-60kw per day. So unless you are just sitting at a dock in the sun for days on end, you will never produce hydrogen..
Good concept but waste of money.
exciting prospects. imo this is probably a when not if. but I'd be interested in the strong man arguments against it to better assess the when. the big hurdles would be in the manufacturing and safety issues that make it currently cost prohibitive, and potentially the all in materials waste (eg mining for rare earths for efficient motors). these seem solvable, but its hard to find non biased details on exactly how big those problems are.
Boating (and shipping) are some of the applications I can imagine hydrogen use for. Cars, trucks and trains are probably much better off with batteries, since they can recharge quite often enough. If you have lots of power available, why not save some for a rainy day? (pun intended ;-))
The guys on energy observer said they have 100 kWh in 1.4 tons of batteries. A 100 kWh Tesla battery weighs about 400 kg (but is probably more expensive and possibly riskier WRT to fires). However, I think with the LFP cells they have in the SR+ versions of the Model 3, you could have 100 kWh in 700kg with no risk of them catching fire (and be quite a bit cheaper, apparently).
Those 62 kg aren't the whole number, though, you need to keep in mind the weight of the electrolysis system, the fuel cell and the tank as well. I think their setup is really good, though - H2 storage scales really well. You have the base weight of the generation and consumption, but the storage isn't that heavy, so that scales up much better than batteries.
My dream boat would be a large sailing cat with lots of solar, a big bunch of batteries and possibly some hydrogen system.
Push pull magnets are the best way in moving ships through the water.
Yep SV Uma has the electric boat thing dialed in.
The future is almost certainly zero carbon electrofuels. The hydrogen is combined with carbon dioxide to create a drops-in replacement liquid fuel with the same energy density as diesel. The only issue is cost (they are currently 3x the cost of diesel) which is why vehicles that can go electric will do so. But for relatively low consumption users (such as sail boaters) the cost is less of an issue.
I believe this catamaran was Steve Fossett catamaran named Play Station. Steve had 15 world records sailing Play Station and was once clocked at 35 knots. He had the Trans Atlantic and the Jules Verne record.
I thought the silent yavhts were exactly doing it, solar panels and lithium only (+ emergency diesel generator). If you are ok to go 3nm at night and 5nm during the day., u don’t even touch the generator. According to them.
The silent yachts have enough for cruising 5 knots for 24 hours so around 120nm without hitting the generator. If you go with the bigger battery banks you can go further.
newatlas.com/silent-55-solar-powered-ocean-going-catamaran/60207/
@@Cadaverine1990 and one has the kite option to "sail" the boat as well.
Forget hydrogen. It won't be long before a sailboat sail will be one big solar "panel". I would not be surprised if there are prototypes out there now. To be practical, however, they would have to work just like a typical sail. They'd be very expensive too. But imagine never having to buy diesel and having a smaller quieter electric drive.
You are totally right. This is the future, and the future is almost now. Arcona, if i’m not mistaken have soft, foldable solar panels on their sails.
EPFZ in zurich is developing in partnership with a startup, solar cells that can be laid on building walls like paint. Dinosor fuel should soon be where it belongs. In the past.
I read some where. I think it was the University of wis That they were working on solar cloth.
Good info thanks!
The actual future of this technology and all technology depends on costs and that was not discussed.
I can’t wait for hydrogen technology to go mainstream it’s a awesome technology all we need is the fueling stations
And the hydrogen production plants. And the electricity production plants to power the hydrogen plants. And the hydrogen transport infrastructure.
How efficient is the conversion from electric power to hydrogen and then to mechanical power?
The transmission to carbon-free travelling and living is chandlering. However, looking forward road is full of opportunities.
Happy sailing
Well we are coming out of our Nordhavn N60..into a Silent yacht 60 for next year...Quiet excited for this to happen...all those €'s saved on fuel.
Wow David please let us know how the Silent works! Their hybrid idea seems like a good solution for today's existing technology!
I think, in a Sailboat unter 60 Foot, batterie storage is enough. (to many systems) You can use the engine as an aquagenerator. A back up of a generator with vegetable oil is easily. The size of the battrie is a question of money. You safe weight (and room) without a diesel-engine & tankvolume.
Aquaone is a luxury catamaran maker similar to Silent but they use solar and hydrogen and one needs to fill up the hydrogen at a marina.
When I look for hydrogen fuel cells I can only find very expensive ones. Like thousands of dollars for less than 1kW output. Can you help me understand how a multi-kilowatt-output fuel cell can be cost-effective at that kind of price? I'd like to be able to use a fuel cell on my small electric boat to increase my range, but at those prices it would cost more than my boat. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places for fuel cells? Any advice welcome!
Me "What did you do today?" Boat owner "I cleaned my solar panels." Me "I went spear fishing and then hung out at the beach. What are you doing tomorrow? Boat owner "Cleaning the solar panels."
Really cool, thank´s. Sail and hydro, the best combo.
@10:10 does it not make sense if they also had hydrogen producing ability? That way they would still fill up but also generate some Hydrogen when the boat is sitting in port being filled up?
Interesting technology. I wonder how these boats will evolve with the introduction of hydrogen generation panels instead of solar panels which is much more efficient than electrolysis derived hydrogen.
Thanks
Hello, did you ask them how much weight are the hydrogen tanks? Another problem wit H is the solar energy conversion to H, it loose a lot of energy, then when convert to electricity again it loose more energy.
Hi Distance shores, how much energy could be generated from 11.7 by 4.5 meter square surface area of solar panel on a catamaran boat.
Wow, interesting stuff for the future.
Die Umwandlung von Solarpanelenergie in Wasserstoff und Nutzung durch Brennstoffzellen dürfte aufgrund der Umwandlungsverluste völlig unwirtschaftlich sein. Der Wirkungsgrad dürfte unter 30% liegen. Da könnte man auch eine holzbefeuerte Dampfmaschine einbauen. Und kommt man mit hochdruck Wasserstofftanks in jeden Hafen? Schließlich die Kosten: Das vorgestellte Boot ist ein experimentelles Spielzeug für Milliadäre!
I'm curious why you said circumnavigation wasn't possible on solar only based on the Energy Observer. Wouldn't reducing speed allow them to run the engines day and night based on what they are able to produce and store? Is there a minimum speed needed for circumnavigation?
I think solar energy might be enough for 3-5 knots max by electric power only. On their ocean crossing they were also adding in wind power via the automatic sails they have. If you are willing to go so slow perhaps it would work. I would want to go faster :-) as a sailor we mainly achieve 6-7 average on our longer ocean passages so I guess I hoped for that.
Hey very nice boat u got i love it its best boat around :D about hydrogen u r right thats the future and i ll remind u that hydrogen comes from water mostly salt water by very easy process electrolysis u dont need to buy the hydrogen from ports :D u produce it on ur boat if u have a good system u can produce enough for direct engine supply if not u ll need small tank and compressor the solar or battery ll start the electrolysis than generator ll came out with 4kW/h in this process u have other products too oxygen, distilled water and salt the system that produce is compact and can fit in car but u ll use bigger for good constant supply than fuel the tank with filtered sea water and go ahead USA navy doing that from decades its time to go commercial ... and make ur boat unsinkable its shame so good boat is not cork style!
nice video!
in final stages of converting an older offshore cruiser to electric propulsion
Be not the first by whom the new is tried, nor yet the last to set the old aside.
JCB in the UK has developed a hydrogen engine . A real game changer.
I suggest you evaluate the Greenline hybrid boats.
Counting on hydrogen facilities, 3 years later …not yet. Yamaha just built a project outboard but refueling remains a question. Also is a hydrogen maker at a small size possible?
Hopefully, in the future... which is very nearby today (2023) we just take in seawater, which is split into hydrogen and oxygen, and burns either directly in our hydrogen engine or goes to storage tanks thst will then be used at a later moment to fuel the additional electric engine. right now we would need ca 40 liters of water and 1.5 kWh to generate 33kwh hydrogen power, which could drive a decent boat engine for approx. one hour. Hence the future is we take in water and we sail or engine without ever buying fuel.. and that's why the oil industry does not really like this idea.
Generating hydrogen isn't that hard, - try experimenting by connecting a battery to two stainless steel bars or bolts inserted into seawater and you'll soon get hyrodrogen and oxygen, (see other youtube channels on how to do this) - however one should avoid collecting the hydrogen and oxygen together, as some do - (it's unstable and can explode).
The hard part is efficiently storing the hydrogen once generated - there are many ways to store it all are expensive at the moment. The mose efficient way (still under research) seems to be using carbon nanotubes, but this is very expensive and out of the reach of Jo Average Citizen (at the moment at least).
Using small currents and seawater will produce small amounts of hydrogen - however if left to run for long periods of time can be a very efficient way to get plenty of hydrogen for a small boat. I'm still researching this and would like to hear from others interested in the same area.
Is the storage system stable?
So you pull into the Bahamas empty - where are you going to fill up with hydrogen? Where is the nearest pump? Also it’s very inefficient to use hydrogen, maybe 30/40% vs 80% for battery electricity. They you also need to store it under pressure which in turn uses electricity. Not very efficient at all. What we need are better solar panels. Current are about 25% efficient but think what they could do for a boat if they were 50%?
Would prefer an all electric boat that was self sufficient vs diesel with maintenance and fuel costs.
Jimmy Cornell is selling his catamaran. I think they cannot figure out the power production. One problem in his concept is to combine luxury with electric propulsion. You can't have air condition and other stuff without an generator. You can buy his catamaran for 1 million euro
Super capacitor batteries much lighter a new breed of power storage.
Can you take a look at the model, that would be great.
The vessel, or vehicle, requires a safe storage method. The ZEUS (Zero Emissions Ultimate Solution) project looked at this quite some time ago. A converted diesel engine that burned Hydrogen. A storage matrix instead of a tank. No matter, Hydrogen production is very energy intensive. Would require us to move to nuclear - based power grid.
Absolutely disagree with the assumption that nuclear energy is necessary.
Sailing Uma is doing a great job at self sufficient, they are all electric…
German submarines use hydrogen for decades now. Nikola is one of the companies pushing for more sustainable production of hydrogen. So I see a future more in hydrogen than batteries alone.
Perhaps I'm not getting the appeal of this boat: according to the Energy Observer website, it cruises at 4.5 knots. Why not just set up some proper sails and increase the speed 3-fold without much effort. Sure, you'd be dependent on the wind for movement, but this boat is dependent on sunny days for movement...very slow movement. Plus, if you think propane is dangerous...hydrogen is in a league of its own.
Overall, an interesting science experiment, but far from practical.
Shipping companies are looking at Ammonia as an alternative fuel source it’s actually has a higher energy density than Hydrogen.
Interesting science but the positive impact from doing all these changes for sailboats is debatable. These changes are very costly, time consuming, not necessarily safe or dependable. How much diesel do you burn each year on your sailboat? Use the sails a little more. I would bet that moving substantially away from gasoline lawn mowers (due to enormous pollution) could have a positive impact one million times greater on the planet.
Sorry, I have a huge issue with the stats presented in the video. In the beginning they stated the hydrogen tanks store 62 kg of hydrogen. Then you state that they only needed to sit for a FEW DAYS (not moving - using the solar to produce hydrogen). Then @ 9:21 you state that the system can produce 3-4 kg of hydrogen PER DAY. Using math, it would take 15 days in SUN (if it was cloudy any of those days..take longer) to "fill" the hydrogen tanks.
Again, It's been talked about by many boat builders and cruisers (yes I know there are a few cruisers using only electric...but they also have to modify their paths and windows to accommodate their propulsion decisions) that EV or Hydrogen isn't anywhere near mainstream yet. I'm almost betting this vessel is getting grants/subsidies from organizations/government.
Hi Douglas, Thanks clarifying.... I couldn't actually find information on how long it would take to produce a tank fill of hydrogen. It was my own math that they could manufacture 3-4kg per day. And that was assuming they didn't run any other systems while making hydrogen during those SUNNY days :-) And you are right the vessel is a receiving financial support as a promotional research vessel. They are pretty clear about that on their website, which is quite interesting ... www.energy-observer.org/
Hey paul good stuff,
Baltic Yachts has a program of hydro-generation using a controllable pitch prop as generator!!, may be of interest!!...
Looks like they’re using a Hundested Prop which has had a great reputation fir years and would work will for regeneration. Thanks for pointing that out Thomas
@@DistantShoresTV Baltic S/Y Canova of course a 20-40 mill. 142ft boat lol... Has a 400kw permanent magnetic electric propulsion. Ave. trials were 27kw at 16 knots 35kw at 20 knots, fast boat lol... not sure how it would work on 50 @ 10knots???
How long does it take to refill the hydrogen tanks from an empty state?
The tanks can hold up to 62 kg of hydrogen. Let's assume sunny days and no other energy consumption, just electrolysis and compression: Then it should take roughly 4 weeks/1 month. With solar energy only (from 21 kWp solar).
since they launched their video a few years ago, catamaran "Moonwave" is spinning around in my head. thx for doing an update on a hydrogen part of the energy
Another great video, thanks.
Hydrogen is definetly the way forward, but we are not there yet. In energy density this is better then lythium batterys or any other battery, but compared to diesel or petrol, it still does not hold up. Untill we have ways to store the hydrogen, safely and conveniantly in liquid from and make use of it it will not make sense weight wise, and we all know on long trips, if you limit yourself to a certain length, the weight matters.
this is why fully electric also is not a solution at the time. Not for people that stay off grid this long.
Cool video. Any issues with hydrogen generation and lightning strikes?
Get some Oars!!!
Hydrogen is a better way fwd than batteries. As you say they don't have the density. I suspect in 5 years we'll have seen the folly in cars. Unless the chemistry changes of course.