Ep. 19 - Deep Dive into Diagnostic Criteria
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Ep. 19 - Deep Dive into Diagnostic Criteria
In this episode, we discuss diagnostic criteria of autism in the DSM-5 (and the ICD-10 diagnostic manual). We talk about things that, according to us, should or should not be a part of the criteria. There is also a brief discussion about ABA and teaching methods near the end, which is not properly in depth and may be picked up at a later date.
Things of the Day:
Samantha Craft's Unofficial Checklist: Females and Autism / Aspergers | The Art of Autism. the-art-of-aut...
Waltz, M. (2020). The production of the ‘normal’ child: Neurodiversity and the commodification of parenting. In Bertilsdotter Rosqvist, H., Chown, N., & Stenning, A. (Eds.), Neurodiversity Studies: A New Critical Paradigm (pp. 15-26). Routledge.)
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Autistic Tidbits & Tangents is a biweekly podcast, co-hosted by Kara Dymond & Maja Toudal, centered around topics relevant to autism and the lives of autistic people. We are both autistic professionals with a passion for broadening and advancing accessibility for autistic people and understanding of autism and neurodiversity. We approach our work with the combination of our personal and professional experiences.
Episodes can be found on Spotify, Anchor, Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts and with video on UA-cam.
Maja's Social Media: www.majatoudal.com / UA-cam - An Autistic Psychologist / Facebook - @majatoudal / Twitter - @majatoudal / Instagram - @majatoudal
Kara's Social Media: www.karadymond.com / UA-cam - Dr. Kara Dymond / Facebook - @drkaradymond / Twitter - @drkaradymond / Instagram - @drkaradymond
SPECIAL THANKS:
-Theme composed by Bruce Petherick
Although this went a little long, I didn't mind it. I watched it on Thursday and had my assessment Friday! I found it helpful to listen to in all the ways the criteria can be interpreted.
It took four hours and the initial impression is that I am indeed autistic with mild (medicated) adhd. Now I need to find community beyond YT. It's a little surreal but it explains so much. Thanks for the conversation!
well, this was great, autism is fascinating and I try to look at mine with detachment, and just kinda how odd it is, to try to tamp down that anxiety, and that feeling of being self-consciouness personified and at the same time invisible
Holy cannoli, you've articulated this perfectly. Hard relate!
I really enjoyed watching you both talk about this. I've been down an autism adhd rabbit hole the last 5 months as I suspect audhd for myself. It's interesting what you were saying about not getting diagnosed if you don't need the support, it's one of the reasons I'm reluctant to seek it myself.
I am on the fence about this one. There is such a narrative about autism being incompatible with living a good life - unlike many other disabilities/differences (I am currently researching adhd, dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia, dysgraphia, aphantasia, etc for my next book and all of my recent readings on those topics position them as variations in brain wiring that result in different processing/experiences of the world, and autism should be framed the same way! Some things are excessively difficult and require support, some things take considerable energy/effort, and there are some areas of great strength as a result of our unique neurology and its impact on how we experience the world.) ... We need to recognize autism when we are struggling and when we are thriving so we know these are not incompatible. And how we're doing is so variable, we won't always be thriving and hopefully the opposite is true, too. I have far greater self-understanding and self-compassion as a result of diagnosis. I'm even more open to discussing and getting help for the things that are hard for me. Life is less difficult. I am less stressed.
@@drkaradymond thank you for your detailed reply, that's given me a lot to think about. 😊
Thanks to you both. I’m self diagnosed and learning so much from your discussions 🥂🇨🇦… I don’t know if I have the spoons for academia either but definitely have the spoons for here 🥄
On the “no distress (support needs), no diagnosis” thing. On one hand, I see the point. However: you can’t register or do research on the autistic people who don’t qualify for a diagnosis according to those criteria, so they will by definition not exist in statistics and research. It perpetuates stereotypes about how disabling autism is when you don’t see the ones who go through life doing well. If you’ve managed to arrange your life in a way that works for you, your ‘reward’ is being invisible since, again: no distress, no diagnosis. Also, if you can only get diagnosed when distressed (and whether/to what degree you are can fluctuate hugely depending on a bunch of life factors) that’s when you’re the least able to do something like pursue a diagnosis. Then there’s all the people who keep pushing through for many years and end up in massive crises which could have been prevented had they known and gotten support earlier. And all the ones who are misdiagnosed with depression, anxiety, OCD, personality disorders, trauma, ADHD etc. Or they have those as well, but everything is being blamed on those things and the autism never detected. And not to mention all the struggles that are there, even if other people don’t see them.
Point being: while I do get your argument, I think there should be a better system. One that calls people autistic if they are autistic, not just if they’re traumatized, burned out, falling apart, and/or struggling *in a way that someone certified to diagnose *can see/hear/notice/acknowledge and *agree with/understand is causing problems *and that they ascribe to the person being autistic. Each of these levels is another factor that will reduce the number of people who are recognized as autistic.
How about they make four levels instead of 3, and level 1 is something like “autistic functioning without need for external support”, and the current descriptors are pushed down one level? (If I come across as angry, I apologize. I’m not. Just frustrated, burned out, and tired. I appreciate your content!)
Totally agree! I'm autistic even when I feel I've got my act together... Not just when I'm falling apart. It sends the message being autistic is incompatible with wellbeing. (There is a great paper or two by Robert Chapman on this topic!)
@@drkaradymond - yes, that's exactly it! Thank you for the references; I'll see what I can find.
@drkaradymond at 1:06:28 you mentioned an ongoing study that showed ADHD and Autism are the same thing. Please please please send me any links around this research when you have a chance, I'm really interested in this as I recently also came to the same conclusion! 😄
I'm glad to hear it's not just me with my very limited exposure (I don't get out much) to the nuerospicy community but I have an exceptional ability to connect the dots others don't. I realised after deep diving into their respective communities that regardless of whether they were very 'clearly' ADHD or Autistic they both shared the exact same problems, internal experiences and traits (they just labelled them different names like ADHD paralysis or autistic inertia). So much so that both sides would bring out the pitchforks if anyone attempted to explain the difference between the two as they both experience the exact same thing.
There is no difference. I only realised this when I realised I also am a ADHDer (besides diagnosised recently as autistic) and speaking to my slowly explaining nuerospicy circle about their internal experiences (which sadly are not in any diagnostic list, as I didn't relate to either actual diagnostic interpretation of either nuerotype). I found it fascinating when I was able to calm my sensors my ADHD thoughts suddenly exploded and my autism 'disappeared'. The opposite happened to my friend who is diagnosed and is an extremely stereotyped presenting ADHDer. When they finally took medication they then suddenly experienced and were able to describe in great detail their experience which was exactly the same as an autistic describing the experience of masking.
My theory is that we have 2 modes that we phase between. The autism is more about survival and sticking to tasks (trying not to forget them), the ADHD to me feels like we are finally able to let go of our brakes and explode with thoughts, ideas, to be free and be ourselves. It seems like autistics are like traumatised ADHDers (not to say ADHD presenting ADHDers can't be or aren't traumatised) but regardless both are recognised when they fall off the handlebars and crash, become aimless, lost and disorientated.
AuDi's unite 😃
I saw the researcher present at a conference and share results in laymens' terms - and she mentioned the study is ongoing with larger data sets but here are results from the preliminary study I believe: www.nature.com/articles/s41398-019-0631-2
Very interesting observations! :) I do know a few autistics who don't feel they also have ADHD, but to me it's just natural variability. None of us are identical, anyways!
@@drkaradymond Wow, interesting; I've had this in the back of my mind for a while. Autism, to me, feels like a bit of mopping up of a mix of other neurodevelopmental conditions or profiles - it's a bit catch-all, like the impact of having other NDCs could easily put you in the Autism box - if that makes sense.
@@ButterflyonStone yeah kind of. I've also begun to wonder if Nuerodivergent people are actually just all the same but have ever so slight differences that lead to a more dominant ADHD, autistic or dyslexic presentations and basically once you have one you are either going to as an individual or medical professional think that's all there is or keep on digging and realising how many boxes you tick. I think most ND would have some level of each element. Unfortunately everything is so complex, exists on their own spectrum and needs (for me to recognise it) an internal life experience shared.
I've been thinking of what might cause dyslexia recently and I'm finding it logically could easily be extremely similar to ADHD. Sorry my data keeps evolving so my theories adjust and evolve too. Have a look into highly sensitive person (HSP, see Google Talk on YT not too long ago) which perfectly matches the total estimated number of nuerodivergent people in our population. HSP is amazing as it is a label that was conceived and researched by the person experiencing it themselves so a nuerodivergent person is much more easily able to recognise the share internal lived experience (as a whole person) compared to a medical deficit label like autism, ADHD etc which were conceived by external observations of deficits. It is interesting and frustrating that the origin of these labels is what researchers essentially have to abide by so the bias and misunderstanding keeps on existing in some capacity. As much as I love science it is incredibly flawed in a field that is (unfortunately for us) very subjective especially if there is not much input from autistics themselves.
Sorry I go on tangents 😂 and need to pick up my kids. But happy to expand on anything when I get a chance.
Executive functioning challenges are common with all learning disabilities, because the more working memory is taken up by processes not automated yet, the harder learning is, and all of the other aspects of executive functioning.
I could talk about labels a lot too - helpful to help us understand some of our traits and find community, but there is a huge problem when we have systems where access to support is contingent on labels, and access to labels is restricted... You bring up good points too about labels being narrow and not capturing the wholeness/humanity of those of us who the label is meant to describe! Nothing is truly objective, is it?!
You know I love the tangents ;)
Hey, American listener here 🇺🇸
Yes, it appears it would be difficult for some to communicate across the need for support.
How could one have known that the reason to choose to sit outside instead of inside is because of the noise being too bothersome? (As well as a disturbance as to the eagle eye spotting of the role of conditioning in conversation) And with that virtually all social gatherings having been dismissed in ones lifetime.
Who could have known that one’s notions on the nature of thought, unconditional freedom and a monetary system which solves for the in congruency between communication and finances is not delusional but needs to be communicated across to other people?
How can one have readily measured their definition of self care where in it’s difficult to comprehend the notion of a self being there?
With certain surface level similarities between an ingrained and malignant form of self love and ASD, how can one not chalk it up to to just being an bad person?
All these things are cleared up here by this work. Thanks. The understanding of ASD has so much to uncover, it seems. Thanks for the two of you’s work.
I wholeheartedly believe ADHD is on the ASD spectrum for a few specific reasons.
ABA is heartbreaking.
Please drop Asperger's label, it's not a clinical boundary but was created for eugenics purposes.
Thank you for another very interesting conversation!
I started this conversation as a podcast but found there to be a very large difference between Kara and Maja's volume of talking. This difference was (for me at least) far less noticeable here on UA-cam. Maybe it is something you can look into?
Weird as it's the same file across platforms. Maybe the visual Helps? I do use a feature that is supposed to auto match the sound tracks in terms of volume. My computer stopped recognizing my plug in microphones (I have 2 and both fail) so I've just been using the regular laptop mic since partway through Season 1. Unfortunately I'm not particularly techy or intent on purchasing a third, or a new laptop yet... Thanks for the feedback, though!
Good work ladies
Thankyou both
I have a hope that you will make adjustments to the sound levels between the two of you. Maja was very soft, and Kara was very loud; I found it quite jarring.
I went through a rabbit hole on researching eds link to asd to adhd and you can find out by a gene test and that's when I wonder what's the gene for asd and its mthfr gene and then I wonder where I can get the mthfr gene testing.i find a hippa safe sorce.i will update you guys if you want too? If a psychologist or psychiatrist can't be in hand then biology can.
I hope this will help other late diagnosed people who are wanting a answer rather then self diagnosed
I hear EDS is really common in autistic people... Interesting. Good luck finding this answer!
@@drkaradymond have to wait 8 weeks for the results.