Thanks for taking up this topic! Probably one, which is not discussed enough in the ICP community. You made good points! I have further questions: What is on-chain vs not on-chain (what does it mean in detail - is it running in a canister vs not running in a canister, is it running on own hardware vs running on a cloud provider infrastructure)? What gives the transparency to the public that nothing was tampered (think about the possibilities of the program creators to build in heuristics and backdoors - especially when it's not open source...)?
I think the most important reason to have AI compute on chain is due to the AI hot wallet problem. LLMs may have limitations currently, but they make great search engines for corporate systems and data. Companies can lean more heavily on LLMs if they know IP is protected. Many companies ask employees to keep prompts abstract as to not give away IP. Personally I'd love a storage drive and doc editors etc... fully on chain, having a fully private reliable remote PC is important to me.
If it's not onchain, it's a meme. Just like the ethereum decentralization meme when most people communicate with a few big rpc service providers.... just like bitcoin meme with big mining pools..😅
I like that Definity is trying to do something different. And cycle burn rate ads to the tokenomics. In the business world alot of companies want to build an "ecosystem" for their customer, to monopolize on the spending of that customer.... look at Apple or Costco. Bringing computation "in house" to gain market share from AWS.... makes sense to me.
This is a question for a developer... When creating an Dapp.. Is it better to not have to transition from web2 to web3? Does it simplify the coding by having everything on chain, end to end? Without gateways and firewalls...etc. Will this produce a smoother and better performing end product?
Non ICP dev (solana/evm) is harder coming from traditional tech. The downside is smaller market considering evm and solana domination.... but with chainfusion you tap into those markets. The problem is, as a new dev you probably gonna go with evm and solana cuz of the noise and then eventually discover icp..... that's why dfinitys marketing and verbiage is the way it is.... it's calculated... too many chains, too many decisions you can't learn it all but you want wide support, and hopefully you find a bit of exposure to icp and it supports the major chains everyone cares about it's absolute no brainer IMO.
Why? Because of tech monopoly. A large benefit of decentralisation is distribution of wealth. Computation needs to be on-chain because decentralisation needs to be end to end.
Well said. I was thinking about the same. Just listen how abstract it sound "something is hacking proof" and it is not about how good our security systems are, it is about the possibility.
I ask myself this question every day. It's significantly more expensive to do heavy compute on-chain. The only real reason is to have an open, transparent system.
As long as they are cheap, I am pro on-chain compute but as the computation requires a lot of resources, it's a factor of centralization since it will push node providers towards central location like data centers instead of keeping the blockchain open to join for everyone. A heavy computation might very well be represented as zero knowledge circuit and only have the proof is stored on-chain for other nodes to verify instead of redoing the same computation everywhere redundantly.
I think it’s important to maintain good practice if and when the need arises for AI development increases no matter how long it takes… Why wait for the usage of on chain to be necessary to start using it?
Decentralized or AWS? Do you own your data or do you have someone else controlling it? Cyber Security Attacks, eliminating points of failure are perks of on chain. Your points of why A.I. in the future should be on chain is why they it’s valid.
Computation = Transaction. If Decentralisation means something to anybody (it means to me), then Computation on chain is of paramount importance. Scalability aside, if I must use an AI or trust it with any important information, I must understand how it was trained, and the information it was fed with. Again, to keep datas safe from hacks, it need to be on a hacker proof environment which is on chain. That's why I believe that icp is on the right path.
I like fundamental questions. As people increasingly rely on AI, the importance of on-chain AI will rapidly increase, not just for "big questions" but for everyday use as well. I bet companies or governments will pay a lot of money to influence the outcomes of an LLM that are in their favor. For example, if I were to ask an LLM what the most fuel-efficient car is and manufacturer X paid to score high in this result, then that LLM is effectively worthless to me. With an off-chain AI, you are essentially running the risk of a corrupted AI. The same goes for off-chain compute. If someone uses their computer to perform off-chain computations for the question or task you have given an AI, how do you know whether the correct computations have been performed or whether they have not been manipulated? What if you made a digital copy of yourself via an AI agent and your cloud provider decided to cancel you? All the arguments that apply to on-chain coins and tokens, in other words a kind of on-chain database, also apply to an on-chain AI.
Also, when using ICP smart contracts in web assembly to run apps and AI on chain, it's unstoppable and cannot crash, so the next time you try to use chat GPT and it's down, you have to ask, does this app need to be always available and working, such as in a hospital using an AI, trained to look at CT scans for cancer patients and verify it's not been trained by substandard material or interfered with in anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure what I'm talking about, but this is what Dom would say, so please double check.
ICP has visions of incorporating blockchain AI with enterprises, govts, military, ngo's, and other blockchains. Other blockchains and enterprises will move much faster on this. Enterprises want efficiency and protection of sensitive data. Startups on ICP are perhaps more important.
It is a very important question. I dont think it is important to the CRYPTO INFLUENCER community, because they cant schill their worthless favourite coins that are not on chain.
Speaking to AI on ICP will facilitate and make it easier. Imo onchain is safer for enterprises, govs, & corporations.
Thanks for taking up this topic! Probably one, which is not discussed enough in the ICP community. You made good points! I have further questions: What is on-chain vs not on-chain (what does it mean in detail - is it running in a canister vs not running in a canister, is it running on own hardware vs running on a cloud provider infrastructure)? What gives the transparency to the public that nothing was tampered (think about the possibilities of the program creators to build in heuristics and backdoors - especially when it's not open source...)?
Very complex question. Super chat me and I’ll do an episode on it
I think the most important reason to have AI compute on chain is due to the AI hot wallet problem. LLMs may have limitations currently, but they make great search engines for corporate systems and data. Companies can lean more heavily on LLMs if they know IP is protected. Many companies ask employees to keep prompts abstract as to not give away IP. Personally I'd love a storage drive and doc editors etc... fully on chain, having a fully private reliable remote PC is important to me.
If it's not onchain, it's a meme. Just like the ethereum decentralization meme when most people communicate with a few big rpc service providers.... just like bitcoin meme with big mining pools..😅
I like that Definity is trying to do something different. And cycle burn rate ads to the tokenomics. In the business world alot of companies want to build an "ecosystem" for their customer, to monopolize on the spending of that customer.... look at Apple or Costco. Bringing computation "in house" to gain market share from AWS.... makes sense to me.
I agree
This is a question for a developer... When creating an Dapp.. Is it better to not have to transition from web2 to web3? Does it simplify the coding by having everything on chain, end to end? Without gateways and firewalls...etc. Will this produce a smoother and better performing end product?
Complex question dude. Superchat me and I’ll do a video on it
Non ICP dev (solana/evm) is harder coming from traditional tech. The downside is smaller market considering evm and solana domination.... but with chainfusion you tap into those markets.
The problem is, as a new dev you probably gonna go with evm and solana cuz of the noise and then eventually discover icp..... that's why dfinitys marketing and verbiage is the way it is.... it's calculated... too many chains, too many decisions you can't learn it all but you want wide support, and hopefully you find a bit of exposure to icp and it supports the major chains everyone cares about it's absolute no brainer IMO.
Literally only reason ICP is underperforming is because CT disagrees with monolithic chain.
Why? Because of tech monopoly. A large benefit of decentralisation is distribution of wealth. Computation needs to be on-chain because decentralisation needs to be end to end.
What's the difference between Google chain and dfinity chain?
Well said. I was thinking about the same. Just listen how abstract it sound "something is hacking proof" and it is not about how good our security systems are, it is about the possibility.
I ask myself this question every day. It's significantly more expensive to do heavy compute on-chain. The only real reason is to have an open, transparent system.
Yap… same question that was plaguing me
As long as they are cheap, I am pro on-chain compute but as the computation requires a lot of resources, it's a factor of centralization since it will push node providers towards central location like data centers instead of keeping the blockchain open to join for everyone.
A heavy computation might very well be represented as zero knowledge circuit and only have the proof is stored on-chain for other nodes to verify instead of redoing the same computation everywhere redundantly.
ICP for me is one direction only, never miss the dip, just increase.
I think it’s important to maintain good practice if and when the need arises for AI development increases no matter how long it takes… Why wait for the usage of on chain to be necessary to start using it?
That’s true
Wait will only delay it
Decentralized or AWS? Do you own your data or do you have someone else controlling it?
Cyber Security Attacks, eliminating points of failure are perks of on chain. Your points of why A.I. in the future should be on chain is why they it’s valid.
Computation = Transaction.
If Decentralisation means something to anybody (it means to me), then Computation on chain is of paramount importance. Scalability aside, if I must use an AI or trust it with any important information, I must understand how it was trained, and the information it was fed with.
Again, to keep datas safe from hacks, it need to be on a hacker proof environment which is on chain. That's why I believe that icp is on the right path.
I like fundamental questions. As people increasingly rely on AI, the importance of on-chain AI will rapidly increase, not just for "big questions" but for everyday use as well. I bet companies or governments will pay a lot of money to influence the outcomes of an LLM that are in their favor. For example, if I were to ask an LLM what the most fuel-efficient car is and manufacturer X paid to score high in this result, then that LLM is effectively worthless to me. With an off-chain AI, you are essentially running the risk of a corrupted AI. The same goes for off-chain compute. If someone uses their computer to perform off-chain computations for the question or task you have given an AI, how do you know whether the correct computations have been performed or whether they have not been manipulated? What if you made a digital copy of yourself via an AI agent and your cloud provider decided to cancel you? All the arguments that apply to on-chain coins and tokens, in other words a kind of on-chain database, also apply to an on-chain AI.
Also, when using ICP smart contracts in web assembly to run apps and AI on chain, it's unstoppable and cannot crash, so the next time you try to use chat GPT and it's down, you have to ask, does this app need to be always available and working, such as in a hospital using an AI, trained to look at CT scans for cancer patients and verify it's not been trained by substandard material or interfered with in anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm not sure what I'm talking about, but this is what Dom would say, so please double check.
ICP has visions of incorporating blockchain AI with enterprises, govts, military, ngo's, and other blockchains. Other blockchains and enterprises will move much faster on this. Enterprises want efficiency and protection of sensitive data. Startups on ICP are perhaps more important.
It is a very important question.
I dont think it is important to the CRYPTO INFLUENCER community, because they cant schill their worthless favourite coins that are not on chain.