What is a 2.5 way speaker?
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2018
- We're familiar with two-way, three-way, even coaxial single driver speakers, but 2.5-way speakers? What the heck is that? Paul gives us the lowdown on this rare breed of speaker that may just be more marketing than technical. Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com/ask-paul/
I am getting close to publishing my memoir! It's called 99% True and it is chock full of adventures, debauchery, struggles, heartwarming stories, triumphs and failures, great belly laughs, and a peek inside the high-end audio industry you've never known before.
I plan a few surprises for early adopters, so go to www.paulmcgowan.com and add your name to the list of interested readers. There's an entire gallery of never before seen photos too. - Наука та технологія
A 2-1/2-way speaker is a two-way speaker that has a midbass driver (or "woofer") and a tweeter operating in a two-way configuration, with a crossover frequency that is typical of a two-way speaker (around 2kHz to 3kHz), but the output to the woofer is split again in the crossover at a much lower frequency (around 300-500 Hz) so that below the lower frequency, both the main woofer and the second woofer are playing together. This technique is referred to as "frequency shading" of the lower woofer (just FYI - so you can impress your friends with your knowledge of terminology). This is done because all (conventional) speakers radiate sound forward at all frequencies, but when the drivers are on a flat baffle facing substantially forwards, eventually as frequency decreases, the wavelength becomes longer than the narrowest dimension of the front baffle (usually width) and the wave begins to wrap around the corners of the speaker and be radiated backwards just as much as forwards, and this is thought of as a transition from radiation in the forward hemisphere to radiation in a full sphere. This results in the output of the speaker decreasing by about 3dB below this frequency (the "baffle step" frequency), and normally this is compensated for in the crossover by reducing the level of the woofer above the transition frequency by about 3dB, then reducing the tweeter level to match, but to preserve higher sensitivity in the speaker and provide some extra maximum loudness in the bass range, a second woofer can be brought in to play below the transition frequency, and that is what a 2.5-way speaker does. When the second woofer is playing, the sensitivity of the speaker increases by 6 dB, so there is an extra 3dB of output in the bass range, and this can make the speaker sound more powerful, but it is not strictly "flat" response. Another technique that can be employed is to feed the second woofer's filter from the output of the main woofer's filter, then bypass the second woofer's filter with a resistance that allows the lower woofer to contribute some output in the midrange, just lower in level by 3dB, so the amount of "baffle step compensation" resulting from the presence of the second woofer is only 3dB and does not produce the extra 3dB of exaggerated bass response. Maybe this technique could be thought of as a "2-1/4-way" speaker because the second woofer would also play some midrange, just less than what is output by the main woofer. The reason the second woofer is thought of as a fractional "way" rather than its own third "way" of the speaker is because the main woofer's output in the bass range is never completely rolled off by the crossover, and both woofers are loaded by the enclosure, so both are producing about the same amount of bass.
Wrong, a 2.5 way is when your wife catches you with your mistress and starts shouting.
It's not quite a 3 way. One isn't performing fully.
@@thunderpooch The wife shouting is the midrange woofer. When you get kicked in the balls you become to high range tweeter.
We're gonna need a TLDR version of that.
Thank you very much for your response Paul!! Now I understand how functions a 2.5 way speaker. I everyday see, learn, and enjoy with your videos. José from Argentina.
As a 15 year old I really enjoy home audio this guy always explains stuff really well thank you
I have a 3.5 speaker, the Canton Karat 790 .2 DC. Seperate side 10'' woofer, two 7'' midrange, divided, and a tweeter and a huge bassport at the back tuned subsonic in combination with a high pass filter at 20hz.on the woofer. I love them and they are the best component in my system.
Great info on all your vids, really well explained mr. McGowan.
Thanks for explaining this!
A better answer -
At a certain frequency based on the width of the baffle (front of the speaker cabinet) bass will start to roll off, this is called baffle step loss. A "good" 2.5 way design uses the bottom woofer to make up for the baffle step loss to get a more flat bass response from the speaker. Typically an extra inductor is added between the 1st and 2nd woofer (cascading filter). The resulting extra 1st order low pass then comes in right about where the baffle step loss comes in and makes up for it.
I remember seeing one in the late '70s that used the second woofer as a sort of passive radiator. It had a custom suspension to allow for more compliance and they ran down to midbass to it and the second woofer was from midbass down using the first as a P.R. I wish I could remember the brand.
Earlier this morning there was a video, "Setting up a Sprout100" or something like that. I put off watching it. I hope you'll repost it. Love this channel! Destination watching for me.
It was pretty pointless, don't feel too bad.
I think it’s really cool that you have this incredible audience. I’m learning more each day!
Thanks, Ken!
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio hi, I have a paradigm reference studio cc v2 center channel
It’s a 3 driver , 2 way center channel
So while listening to music or watching movies the left speakers and tweeter produce sounds and the right one produce the bass is that normal for a 2 way center channel to do ??? Pls help me
2.5 is brilliant, when designed well. Column speaker has enough cabinet volume to provide lower frequencies and handle more power than bookshelf size two way design. Better midrange than with larger woofers and 2 x 6,5" woofers can handle bass as well as one 10" woofer.
Thanks for explanation.
I have read a term called alignment of speakers where the tweeter is placed a little bit behind the line of other speakers to align it's coil or dustcap with others.
Now how is this idea accomplished in horn tweeters.
Balrajacharya.
Mumbai
India.
Cool. I've got a pair of Von Schweikert VR-2's that I've had for about 15 years. They are a 2-1/2 way design. To further complicate things they are also some sort of confusing transmission line design as well.
Paradigm studio 40 v4 is a 2 1/2 way. It's a good setup for vocals with small emphasis on high notes, less fatiguing.
Also, instead of multiple drivers, this can be done with dual voice coil drivers. Can't remember specifically which speakers were made this way or I'd mention that as well. There have even been quad voice coil drivers. Only subwoofers, I think.
i would love to hear your thoughts on baffle step compensation. i'm a newbie diy'er with some simple 2 ways under my belt and a pair of mtm's.(lots of subs) i'm wanting to take the plunge into a pair of towers but bsc is confusing.
Hey Paul, do you think i should invest in a new amp or should i buy a subwoofer first? I have a pair of Dali Zensor 5s and a nice Onkyo. I would like to get a Dali Sub Ef12, but i am not sure.
Paul,
What do you think of a soft dome mid range driver in a 3 way system with a cone woofer and soft dome tweeter?
Finaly!!! Thanks alot, sir! And yet, there are no specific calculators for this type of crossover... and I was wondering what frequency should I chose for the second driver... and if I chose one just by looking at the graph, what would determine my choice? I understand that its enough just to have a frequency that is below from the crossover point between the first woofer and the tweeter, right? Or its another think that I should take into consideration?
Keep it coming Paul, keep it coming.......
Very interesting! I know the Polk LSi series uses this, and it definitely improves the lows from the woofers in the LSi9s.
Also, Paul, how do you feel about Polk? I know a lot of audiophiles don’t like them, what do you think?
with 2.5 way can the two speakers work in one volume or do they have to be separate ?
Do you remember the Speaker Lab speakers with a hybrid crossover that allowed one driver to serve as a passive radiator near FB but otherwise drove them in parallel? It was suppose to sound crisp like a sealed box but with better low end efficiency.
How do you keep the wrong frequencies out of the wrong driver? The answer is that you don't. You send the same signal to both woofers, but both woofers have different sensitivity and frequency response. And assuming you designed things right, this should work.
I own a pair of B&W 603 S2 speakers that are set up like that. And, yes, the second woofer was mostly about baffle step correction.
It's basically a 3-way speaker with the "midrange" having no low cut filter.
I had a JBL speaker that was a 2.5-way, but the lower woofer was a larger diameter.
Microlab Solo 9c I believe that is a 2.5 way speaker system
Example: B&W DM14.
Still enjoy them.
Do a video on the baffle step response!!!!!
Wouldnt a mid range with a lo pass and hi pass be called a "band pass"?
I got a 2.5 high end drivers DIY speakers (1 m High 0.2 m Wide 0.3 m Deep ) And with the a closed cabinet on top for the mid/woofer and tweeter and under a subwoofer, with only a upper 100 hz filter The mid/woofer and tweeter are build in a closed system (which is basically a separate subwoofer but in the same cabinet) So the mid/woofer in the closed system is build in a way that the mid is not capable to produce sounds lower than 100 hz because of the closed cabinet (so without any holes for the bass) and I must say it's sounds perfect This is what I always understood a 2.5 system is. I don't see any marketing here because of the minimal use of filters, and the natural way to cap the low in the mid is not a hard line so it sounds really natural.... Di I misunderstand this or is my system called something else? Thanks for all the video's by the way I love it, greetings from Holland, Europe. by the way, I watched the video again and now i understand your explanation better and it's the same as the one I have.. '-)
so, do they sound any better than or have an advantage over classic 3 speaker configuration (woofer, mid and tweeter) ?
Jhan Jar you'd think not really aside from 2 bass sources. The 3 way uses more dedicated drivers, the 2.5 way just uses another of the same driver in a 2 way to combat baffle step so that you don't need to pad everything down as with just a 2 way
Typically it is considered that a well executed 3 way speaker is superior to a well executed 2.5 way, which is superior to a well executed 2 way.
I am a Paradigm speaker junkie, and they are big on 2.5 way speakers, but do it differently. Theirs look like a 3 way because they have a tweeter, a mid/bass and bass only woofer (or multiple identical bass woofers in some cases) where the mid/bass and bass look completely different. This is because the mid/bass is designed to go up to 2k Hz and is therefore much higher end than the bass woofer that only has to go up to 400 to 600 depending on which speaker we are talking about. Basically the Paradigm version is using 3 way drivers, but then using a 2 way crossover with an extra feature that keeps mids from the bass woofer, so in the end with the Paradigm version of 2.5 you end up with 3 way drivers, but the mid also pays down as low as the bass woofer. One could argue that this in theory is better than a 3 way as you are actually getting more. However, according to Paradigm the 2.5 way speakers fall jist short of the 3 ways on overall sound and they go 3 way on their higher end speakers.
I assume the reason the 3 way exceeds the 2.5 way on Paradigm speakers is that they can utilize a woofer that handles 500 to 2k Hz better when that woofer no longer has to worry about under 500. Also removing the bass from that mid also helps I am sure even if the same driver were used.
Jhan Jar I came from a 2.5-way Dynaudio to a 3-way Elac Adante. Both very good speakers but the latter presents better imaging. The separation or distinction of different instruments specially in dynamic music is more apparent in the Elac. Also the bass is more taut and quicker. Just note again that they’re from different manufacturers so voicing of their products may have been a factor and not totally because a 3-way is generally better than a 2.5-way.
You mean an MTM? OR two two way's with a subwoofer?
On the oscilloscope, the step response of a 2.5 way speaker looks like that of a 2 way speaker, and very different from that of a 3 way speaker.
I have not seen a high pass filter on a woofer yet. Unless in system requiring a sub.
You were talking about 2 way speakers with high pass filter on the woofer. Who does that??...and why?
The woofer has a high pass because if it plays higher it would distort.
And it can't play that high.
My Klipsch RP450C is a 2.5 way center channel.
How does it work ? One side and tweeter produce sounds and one bass only
I see you have 2 thumbs down. I figure you have 2 speaker manufacturing viewers.
Love the vids
isnt an mtm and D'Appolito array a 2.5way? it solves the lobing effect. so 2.5 way is not just about marketing ploy..
I'm not sure why you would dismiss it as a marketing term. 2 1/2 way describes a very specific type of speaker/crossover arrangement. If not 2 1/2 way, what else would you call it? It's really not a two way, and certainly not a true three way.
gotham61 , I call it Rubbish, all you really need is a very good 3 way speaker system with 4 or 5 speakers sometimes 6.
1 big woofer at least 12 inches, 2 midranges, and two different tweeters, one soft done and one hard done horn loaded or waveguide type tweeter.
Case in point, my 1970s
Sansui 3 way, 5 speaker design ass follows,
one 12 inch rubber surround big ass woofer with an 80 ounce magnet
2 @ 4 inch midranges speakers and two tweeters with a selector switch on the front for " Soft or High"
these speakers are 40 years old and still out perform anything I have bought to date, hands down, they even had a twin port design. kick fucking ass
What you described is something probably good but not for all.
Mikexception , yea I know, I guess I was just trying to make a point about speakers in general these days. most all manufacturers are using such small woofers and I just don't see why when the 40 year old speakers I have ( that still work beautifully ) out perform every speaker and speaker system I've ever bought since the 70s, I do understand about movies and all the computer controlled sound for Dolby and thx.
but damn, companies spend millions on designs trying to get more bass out of a stupid little 6 1/2 inch driver, that's bullshit.
T-Line design, baffle this and waveguide that.
well RUBBISH I say with all that bullshit. my next purchase is gonna be
a set of Cerwin Vega speakers with dual 12 inch woofers, NO SUB WOOFER IS EVEN NEEDED.
My Fluance phono, Cerwin Vegas, and my Harmon/Karden receiver with a vintage 35 year old ADC EQUILIZER SPECTRUM ANALYZER, BLISS.
Thanks, I know what you mean. It is fatal mistake with small speakers forced to push lot of watts. 5- 10 Watt serious woofer makes all with ease and simplicity and what is most important with much smaller movement of cone. Anyway it is one of few ways to get happy.
Bafflestep has not been mentioned, even though it is the reason why x.5-way solutions exist.
Paul, I thought that the .5 referred to the inactive cone in some speaker systems. You know, the cone that looks like a speaker but lacks the magnet assembly. A passive device that is not a complete speaker mechanism.
That's a passive radiator, and they only replace a port that would be too impractical to fit in the speaker. At frequencies other than the tuning, it will not output any audible sound.
They are useless in baffle step compensation duties. They cannot output sound at the frequencies they should, and even if they could they will be out of phase (woofer cone comes out, they get sucked in).
Precisely.
It is unknown to market system so anyone thinking he has it is wrong. Except he met somewhere one of few my constructions :).. I developed it and presented working good in 1991 at AES convention, soon after I named it "two and half" band speaker. . Actually I was using it for almost 30 years, still have but last time no more in use .- (decided to switch to 50 years old widerangers with phase no problem). . Uses crossover with three filters (high, middle and low) for only two drivers. Low and high drivers share half to half send to them middle band Purpose is to manage middle band phases in coherence with two other - something impossible in known LC filtering.
Ha ha - - missed, There is mid speaker too but setting of frequencies is like for two way - only one common cross frequency.
I have a question Paul: do you still design gear?
He is busy with the PS Audio speakers.
Starts at 1:30
Why did my old Boston Acoustic A100 speakers sound better than any of my modern thin tower profile speakers with their slim small form factors running about the same size drivers?
It can be your perception, that perhaps your ears were better at the time, allowing you to enjoy stereo and dynamics better?
Or perhaps they were actually not that good, but that you didn't mind their shortcomings. Did you do a side by side comparison.
But it could be true, old gear can sound terrific, and companies moved on to different technology, but changes are not always for the better. Cutting costs, focussing on marketing instead of quality. I don't like those modern towers with two midbass and a tweeter most of the time, they lack bass and dynamics most of the time. A friend of mine has a pair of expensive Elac'' but I find them boring and dull.
You might be correct about it being my perception. If this is the case then It might have to be my virgin ears at the time being exposed to the Boston A100's for the first time and there for making an impression on me that stayed with me the longest. After many years of listening to many other speakers, maybe none of them ever made that huge of an impression on me as those Boston speakers. However, I have to say that I once got to listen to a set of cheap small bookshelf bookshelf speakers that also made a huge impression on me. I just could not believe those small speakers were able to produce such a low frequency and had enough clarity in vocals for me to take notice. Those small bookshelf speakers are from the early 2000's I believe. I still believe something happened with today's speaker production. I've been told that this may not be the speaker but may have to do with the audio recordings and the engineers being able to add amplitude to their digital recordings. In the past this was not possible and therefore speaker builders had to work to compensate for the lack of boosting amplitude and there may have sounded better than today's speakers. Thanks anyway.
@@moofushu i recently bought a pair of speakers that i used to have when i was 16, 43 now. It was so much fun. In my memory they played perfect. But in reality compared to my home system just horrible, you can imagine what a 4mm rear board does with transparency, but they were not bostons.. but what amazed me when I played back music I used to listen to as a kid it struck a lot of emotional stuff and I had fun a whole week. It really sounded like childhood. I think you should rebuy those bostons somewhere and have fun too.
What's the upside of a progressive crossover on an array of tweeters?
Wider vertical dispersion
My guess is it has to do with comb filtering. If two tweeters attempt to play the same same frequency, the distance to your ear will be slightly different. This creates a time offset which could cause comb filtering of certain frequencies.
2 way much preferd
2.5 way? Just like the Advent Heritage towers I'm re-foaming while watching this. 2 8" woofers and a tweeter of course. X over has 3 inductors . looks like each woofer is a low pass, different points. Helps with comb filtering i suppose, better mid range
More reasons to buy those wharfedale diamond 12.4s
Ooh
q55.2 FTW!
I thought, maybe I misunderstood this, that 2.5 way speakers were just two way speakers with a passive radiator. Am I wrong about that? Somebody please correct me and if possible could you give an example of a common speaker that is advertised as 2.5 way? I thought that Jose in Argentina was asking something like: how can a 2.5 way speaker make lower sounds than a 2 way speaker when the radiator isn't electrically connected to anything? He says straight out that "...the crossover network is a two-way design..."
Dynaudio Contour 30 is 2.5 way
www.dynaudio.com/home-audio/contour/contour-30#tech-specs
Paradigm makes a ton of 2.5 way speakers. It has nothing to do with passive radiators. Think of it as a speaker with 3 way drivers, but the mid pulls double duty and goes down as low as the speaker is capable of.
Think of it like a 2 way with multiple woofers, (but there is no band pass filter on the mid) & only the highest woofer on the baffle, near the tweeter is going to play up to the tweeters x over freq. the other woofers are basically bass only. helps the mid range and imaging i think.
Andy B A 2 and 1/2 way speaker is not a 2 way with a passive radiator. A passive radiator can be thought of as a substitute for a port.
Why don't they make four way speakers. I've seen a handful over the years, but my idea would be something like a ultra low frequency subwoofer, mid woofer, mid range and tweeter.
ken cohagen Very difficult to design well, and expensive to make work.
Scott Bernard thanks Scott. My current system is a Focal two way system with and F3 of 45 Hz, and repose on the purer end of 23kHz at -3.
I use them along with a sealed box sub that has a Q of .81 which has a rise at about 55 to 60 Hz, but the low end rolls off fairly flat down to and F3 at 23hz. I dial it in at 50 Hz and bring the volume up to where it sounds flat, not overpowering at all. I had thought about building a four way system, or three way with Subs built into the bottom of the cabinet for the family room where the ceiling is 22 ft high. Lots of room to fill with sound. I also thought about building a pair of el pipe o subs.
With modern drivers, a two-way is pretty much all we actually need, with a 3-way only for those who are looking into optimization. 10-12 inch woofers can go to 400-600Hz with very little issues of beaming or nearing cone breakup. We also have capable 3-inch drivers that can be high passed at 150-300Hz which eliminates virtually any hint of audible distortion, and they also easily reach 20kHz very cleanly.
I thought that genesis was a white van brand
I have the speakers in the thumbnail, I bought them for only €2
Which Sony speakers are those?
Speakers in thumbnail are Sony SS-CCP1, i have very similar SS-CCP2 i did get them free. Not very audiophile spekers crossover contains only two capacitors. Tweeter sounds actually quite okay, but they dont go very low.
Boar Production I modded mine with some acoustastuff and now they dig down to ~50hz.
Cudos Paul, for trying to prove some point of validity for the .5 term. But in physical terms it’s a total Hoke!
''2.5 way speaker is it speaker that someone can listen one way or another... or a half way''. No way.
marketing bulls**t is many times pleonasm
2.5 way speaker means your speaker manufacturer was saving money on your crossover components.