I was raiding up until cata and my guild used a loot council to decide everything. We had each class leader involved, along with the guild master and raid leader. Then there was me. The Auditor. I literally had a spreadsheet of our whole guild's current gear sets and what they recieved from drops previously. Any attempts to "hotswap" were cruelly punished or you were kicked after the 3rd attempt. We were putting a heavy emphasis on gearing our guild evenly to quickly raise our ability to clear raids. We were pretty successful with it as a semi-casual raiding guild, but took some serious dedication at key points to keep it running right.
I dont like loot council. As a prebis mage i only need a few items and imagine when the guild that i was raiding for a long time started using loot councing, an item i wanted dropped, i didnt get it and a spriest with really low gear got. I existed the guild imediatly.
The example is a bit constructed though, because any guild raiding bwl would tell you to stick the ridiculously bad Mage T2 shoulders where the sun won't shine, move your ass to BRD and get a boreal mantle already :D
What we did in our guild: We made a reservation spreadsheet. Everyone can reserve one item of their choice and have priority on that. There's a counter that increases every week you attend the raid, which resets upon changing reservation or getting the item. The higher counter value the higher priority. If multiple people reserve the same item and have the same counter value they roll for it. Unreserved items are raid rolled between pre-determined classes/roles. Roll based system that allows people to target specific items they want. Low drama, some fun RNG and everyone can influence their itemization.
The guild i'm in does the same thing, except for the counter part. The reservation is reset every week so you can choose if you still want that reserve or not, without penalty.
@@vevisel Yeah, we went without a counter at first, but decided to implement it so we could reward raiders who show up and give people a sense of progression. We've had 0 mageblades since launch and some people have been signing up on it since week 3 of classic. Imagine the drama if a newer person came in and won it on their first try.
@@NotGawain It can always be imporved, but atm we let everyone edit the sheet and put their name by the item they want. At raid start we make a copy. After the raid we adjust the counter manually. A google docs link to the speadsheet we use: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1imHD4j_jtUaoD-GK82yNuyEPe-_bd5Z9wIrQqqNK8o0/edit#gid=0
My guild currently uses Ep/Gp and its smooth as hell! We have a team who set up item values and points awarding for raids and donations. Also having a website that has everyone's points and items is amazing! Loving the classic experience we're having . Lots of other guilds dont understand ep/gp and think it's trash (lol) glad you made a video I can send to them to shed the light !
Bad thing about dkp is when classes talk amongst themselves and pretty much loot council the items allowing a entire class to have 10 billion dkp saved up for when a non-class specific items drop
whats wrong with it? in my old raidgroup each class discussed and decided together (demokraticly), who should get what class item. The class leaders were NOT leading that discussion, they had to hold themself back. So all DKP were used by all raidmembers just for non-class items... and it worked pritty well:)
@@rapsack7058 ill give you extreme example - you run MC with 3 stable tanks and 10+ DPS Warriors and Rogues and tanks work with each other so they basically take all class specific equipment for minimum bids saving a ton of DKP while dps are in constant DKP war basically going all in on every piece of BiS gear they can get theyr grubby hands on ... then one day Perdition blade drops ... guess what all three tanks have more DKP than any other player in the group which means one of them is getting it ... the next time the first offtank gets it ... the third time the second offtank gets it ... this problem exists whenever you have limited number of any spec in raid - which means tanks, hunters, druids and often warlocks who get theyr spec specific gear for basically nothing while the mages, rogues and DPS warriors are spending huge amount of points even on set gear simply because there is huge competition.
our guild uses a modified loot council, through a priority system, where each item is discussed beforehand which class/spec gets priority for items and in what order to maximize proper loot going out. its discussed via the officers ( all 12 of us, we have 2 full raids goin on full clears at all times, not including our 3rd raid for alts ). on raid day, we use the list we as officers made and call loot by gambling, aka rolling. some things, are marked for example, as pvp items, like druid tier 1 set, where the whole class rolls on it for pvp reasons. where as like might, has tank prio, followed by fury/arms as off spec. there are items like mageblade, we prio to mages first, followed by warlock/shadowpriests, then healer paladins. since paladins are given prio on aurastone hammer for healing. as a example. basically, its pre-discussed what spec/class gets what, and all that matters is the gamble aspect. we also set different items in 3 tier's tier 1 being the big ticket items, that are more rare then others, where as others are rated lower. people are then ranked individually in tier 1 to 3 based on attendance. so tier 1 people get tier 1 items, if tier 1 items are not taken by tier 1 people, tier 2 people get a chance at it, and so on. if a tier 2 item drops, tier 1 and 2 roll on it, and if its not needed, the tier 3 people get it. its a very complicated system, but we have 12 officers to manage it, and run the guild of 200 on our little RP-PVP server. we also host pvp events, RP events, and also, silly-RP events... like the human joke event... basically the long human joke... but with level 1 gnomes on a quest to get to the burning stepps. really fun we are soon going to host a buy in arena event, for 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 groups. where the winners get a prize money from the accumulated entry fee. and we are working these events into our loot system to encurage people to do more things AND get a slight boost to their rolls ( currently its like +1 to your roll: 100 -> 101 as a example )
Being a disc priest from wrath through some of warlords was awesome. I never needed gear and just stacked tons of points so when some insane item dropped I always got it. There were very few instances where I got items for free because I convinced my guild it wasn't that big of an upgrade and I didn't want to spend points 😂
Yeah our guild uses 1 tier, 1 upgrade and 1 boe piece per run, if no one needs the pieces then they roll for OS/PVP those rolls don’t effect main ones though
Hey hamster, i have been following your content for years now, you deserve Much better spot on youtube. Love your content. Your scripts, many may overlook, is outstanding every time. Best of wishes.
DKP systems usually should have a failsafe, where if no-one wants to bid, the item goes for free roll or through loot council... instead of being disenchanted or vendored. Unless it really is not an upgrade for anyone.
We use Suicide Kings and it is by far the most fair loot system. We will use some slight loot council when BWL comes out just to make sure our tanks are priority on tier gear.
Our guild runs a council-roll system, where the council keeps track of people getting rare and powerful loot (weapons, trinkets, low dropchance rings, ETC), and put people on the bench for loot for winning those items. After that, they call out the classes/specs that are allowed to roll on them, excluding loot-benched players. It means that the only personal favoritism that happens, is when there are meme specs in the raid, such as enhancement, boomkin, ETC, in the raid, that has to be included/excluded for rolls. It is not perfect, since our council doesn't know every item by heart, and need time to make decisions, and mistakes have happened, where rogues were accidentally excluded, due to a collective brainfart, and the council being smaller that night. The council talks it out in discord where we can all hear it, so it feels transparent enough.
Good loot counsil have list off the stuff people have gotten so they cant trick you like that you bring up. Sure new guild members might but it can be fixed if they want to.
@@drafman1 Unfortunately there are a lot of retarded loot councils, especially on the private servers so luckily we don't have to deal with that anymore since Classic. We've always run loot council with some slight variations over the years and different servers. I think we've only had one guy quit because of it so we've been quite successful. I have heard a lot of stories of corrupt councils though or the council members just not putting the time and effort to make it fair.
Loot Counsil had its prime time back in the old days of vanilla and then with the first expansions and it was the best system in my opinion. Guilds were completely different back then, cause nobody knew how the raid bosses worked. The main goals of guilds back then was to get through the raid. Thats literally what everybody wanted. The item drops were just the icing on the cake. Players were fine with loot counseling the items to the most important and strongest players, because it would mean progress for the whole guild. Especially when Blizzard released some of the more broken bosses it increased the bond between players. Something like this sadly is unimaginable these days, cause everybody wants items. Killing Ragnaros is no longer a big event, but rather an inconvenience that stands between players and their items.
Our casual guild uses loot council, kind of. We still have an open discussion in our specific class channel, everyone is very polite, often passes on gear cause we feel someone else haven't gotten something for a while etc. But at the same time the class leaders are the ones that decide which class should have prio etc.
my guild currently uses eggp and a lot of stuff ends up disenchanted anyway because they are holding points for a bis item. My favorite loot system is loot council but it only works if you trust the people doing it and is sorted fairly.
Because it is almost identical to DKP for a 10 man. It literally works the same way without using actual numbers to keep track of points you rotate full positions and cant horde points.
we have used loot counsil since vanilla but always done in the days up to the raid and uploaded to forum..everyone knows what to expect and no drama... but we are a pritty tight bunch...
My guild uses LC, and it's been fair so far and very transparent. Seniority, attendance, current gear, and bringing consumables (being prepared) is weighed heavily. The council is the founding members of the guild, and every raider updates a google doc with their current gear so no shenanigans. If it's a tie on who should get it, the players roll. An explanation is always given as to why loot was given to a player.
Ah. 3 years too late. I was in a guild which had Loot Council. This was in TBC. All those problems you mentioned - non-existent in the guild I was in. Maybe now, but that's not on the system, but the gamers.
Honestly, another loot system I think is often overlooked cus it's "for noobs" is just rolling if you need shit BUT if you win you get minus X on the next roll. Where X can be 15-30 or whatever. So for every item you win, you get less chance to win, BUT you could also be lucky. USUALLY, over time it evens out with loot distribution. The ML SHOULD decide beforehand if hybrids can roll on lets say cloth gear etcetc, but when I lead with these kind of rolling system, I just say it's a "free for all" for shit, if your class can use it, then roll for it. If it's a "mage BiS" item, then tough luck if another caster wins it. This can of course be tempered with, and I've seen people say that "BiS" items can ONLY be rolled by said classes that they are BiS for, but that's up the the RL/ML :)
Loved gdkp in wrath. I ran so many runs in ICC and made so much gold. Would run like 5 a week. Had a great reputation so people were always on a wait list to come.
@@ryanpagel426 That makes no sense, that means you're fine with potentially losing 15 straight pieces of gear to players you may be more consistent/skilled than only based off RNG, when you can go in another system and have your consistency/effort taken into account and get what you need/deserve. At that point you're fucking yourself...
imagine only needing 2 pieces in the entire raid, and the week it drops it goes to the not even core raider who just joined A bit back that only shows up half the time lol
Back on Feenix wow on alliance side we hosted BWL weekly and we did several NAXX pugs with WORK IN PROGRESS + my guild (Argent Crusade) for extra money. We were the top 2 tier guilds before they shut down the server, Argent Crusade followed Work in Progress closely to their first KT kill there. So yes GDKP works anywhere if you are motivated enough.
For a new raider, On the DKP systems, one can level the field by bidding ALL of one’s points to make the other players bid much higher numbers, thus, leveling the field.
My guild uses a modified Konfer Suicide Kings system. If nobody wants to go to bottom of list it's just rolled on. I think it's the best there is if not just telling alone.
@@HamsterWheelGaming Everyone in the guild makes a top 5 wishlist of items they want, the item they want the most is listed 1st, then 2nd and so on. This list is then sent to the guild master, or the officers who are in the loot council(we also rotated who would be in the loot council) The wishlist would be hidden from everyone in the guild who are not a part of the loot council. The wishlist is "locked" so people can not change the wishlist for an extended period, maybe 2 months or longer. It would always get unlocked when new raid content was released, so people could remove or add new items to the wishlist. If an item dropped and it was #1 on person A wishlist, person A would get the item. Loot council does not come into play. In any case an item was on the wishlist and on #1 for person A and person B, the loot council discuss who would get the item. If an item dropped and nobody had it on their wishlist, but still wanted the item, then we had to roll or the loot council would decide. In these cases, it was usually items that people would expect to get eventually anyway. Example would be tier set pieces like wrist, off-spec / side spec etc. People would not care too much if they lost a roll or what the decision would be from the loot council. We felt this was a fair way, and it reduces the time needed to distribute loot. It also reduces the human factor in loot council. To make it more transparent, we also rotated the loot council members sometimes. Not only guild officers would be in the loot council, but also veterans of the guild. The system distributes loot based on what people want the most first, then loot council would only come into play if 2 or more people had an item on equal priority in their wishlists. It is very efficient and fair, you can also adjust it to be a top 10 list or top 3 or what suits the raid content the most. We never had any drama over loot and people could. Of course we had a human factor with the loot council, but people rarely had the same item on equal priority in their wishlists. The only problem we had was when new members joined the raiding team, so we had to tell trials they would most likely not get any items on their wishlist for the first few raids. Same as new members join a DKP raid where they had 0 DKP, they would not get any items in most cases.
Thanks! I was always wondering how the different ones worked as I mostly just used the basic masterlooter /roll one, but I see now why the other ones might be better!
You missed the ZSDKP. Zero Sum DKP. Every item has a set price, if you want it you whisper the Master Looter and whoever has the highest DKP gets the item. The DKP spent, is then immediately distributed evenly to the rest of the people in the raid. It rewards attendance and makes it fair. You obviously can go negative on this. The thing is at the end the total sum of the DKP is zero.
You can still horde DKP with decay OR EPGP(also with decay). The hording isnt as effective but it still works for the big items. Works for low level raids IMO, not for competitive progression. Loot council should consist fo not just officers but weekly temporary LC members. Regular(willing) members of raids get a chance to slot into the Loot council. This makes the process MUCH more transparent. It also reduces favoritism. Also, as a general rule, you should never insist that gear goes to yourself, when that gear is up for debate, if you want it, stay silent and let the others decide.
if you are a top 1000 guild LC is the only option as it is all about getting those kill done quickly and everybody will be of pretty much equal skill so the question is what class/spec/role do you need for later fights. for the rest EP:GP is just far better while DKP with decay dose fix the hording EP:GP pushes you to grab as much gear as possible as quickly as possible as you will want to decay down your GP as quickly as possible. and in the case of the shoulders they are going to cost less GP than the others which means you can maintain your ratio for other items.
I like dkp fully kitted out all my tier pieces while we struggled to kill dono so all the priests wanted benediction and we never got it so I was bidding on every tier piece and getting it for low amounts
EPGP is the worst thing ever invented.. You practically scare people away from rolling on things that are technically an upgrade if being a small one. Items will not be rolled on and resulting in the guilds overall progression to take a hit. If you are the only person needing an item, either cause you are the only person of the class who can use it, or every other person already has it. The item should be given to him freely, or at least with a discount GP. It is how capitalism works - remember? Supply and demand? It also serves as a catch up mechanic, for newcommers who dont get punished for not having been there from the begining, and people progress faster overall. EPGP shits all over that and claims to be fair for everyone to save up and roll on what they really need?. BS what it really does is make people go PUG on Onyxia cause you have a way better chance of grabbing an item in a pug where you dont have a bad EPGP score already. So "clap clap" for a system that actually discourages people to raid with their guilds. The whole notion of calling EP "efford points" is also ridiculous. Efford for showing up to play the game that you play? Its equivalent to breathing air, and receiving EP for that. Hmm where do we have a similar system in place, oh right.. Marxsism! You basically get EP for showing up = being born. If you want the EPGP system to function like anything that even resemples capitalism, which people who like the system claim it to be mimicing, you sorta need to implement the function of suppy and demand into the mix. Which is a fundemental if you know anything about economics. Therefore items what nobody needs or wants, should be cheaper. Thats how the free market works. But gamers are communists I suppose? "I paid full price last year. and so must you now"!!! Remember that for the next back friday folks! NO DISCOUNTS! EPGP is neither fair nor is it good for the guilds who use it. It creates a fake sense of competition between guildmates to put their EP into something, but cheats them by ignoring suppy and demand mechanics totally. - yes value of items deminishes over time, so it needs to be a factor if its supposed to work properly.
@@SilentD1 While I don't think EP:GP sounds that great, you do make some dumb comparisons. "Its equivalent to breathing air, and receiving EP for that." What you are saying is: "It's equivalent to doing your job and get paid." as if that is not supposed to happen. Seeing that you talk as if you have a great deal of knowledge about economy, I find it strange that you think that getting paid is communism. To make this system work, just remove the "GP" part. Just make sure people dont get duplicates for whatever reason (before everyone who wants has one), and don't let people get it for memespecs until people have gotten it for main/pvp.
@@3fast5you Its a game not a job, and if it was then you essentially get rewarded for showing up and mashing buttons, not how well you do it.. There is no reward for doing a GOOD job. The worst dps gets the same roll as the best one. What efford is there?
@@SilentD1 By your own logic I can just say "It's a game, not a communist regime". Of course it's a fucking game, but a more fair comparison IS a job. A guild can be looked at like a sort of business. Attending raids is your job in the guild. And your payment, either straight up loot that is loot councilled to you, or a fictitious currency that can be traded for gear. It's a fucking job, the only reason it's not a "job job" so to speak, is that you don't pay taxes. When it comes to how you are rewarded based on performance... I really doubt you can speak for all EP:GP guilds.. I would really think people give you EP for different stuff. Maybe you were in a shit EP:GP guild. Work is life, so it's no surprise that games simulate work. It's only recently that we have started dividing personal life from job, and that is a coping mechanism, because most people have terrible jobs, and do not wish to be associated with their job.
No the point of loot council is to give loot to the person that it helps the guild progress the fastest. The faster you progress the faster everyone gets loot. Fairness is a side effect that just happens when the system is run with perfection.
A couple more things about EP:GP that you didn't mention: Many people consider it to be more appealing than DKP because it is more new player friendly (newer players have a very good ratio early on, almost guaranteeing them at least 1 item early on), and most guilds that run EP:GP have BOTH EP and GP decay by the same percentage value every week, so your ratio does not change but over time it will make your ratio much better.
I was in the pug with GDKP loot system. This system might be corrupted with fake bits to increase the prize of the item. However ever I made some agreement with few people about splitting bits. If drops the item someone wants others don't bit
Isn't there also suicide kings? Where when you get an item you go to the bottom of the list and each time an item drops the person who wants it that is highest up the list gets it?
There was a GDKP hardcore guild on my server (tbc classic) but due to internal problems it felt appart (The drama tha broke it was that the loot master was lying and kept about 10% of the gold to sell it for IRL money, got known only when they got banned and assumed it on the pug discord of the server)
Loot council only works if the people on it arent selfish or bias, and know what they are doing. luckily i have never been in a bad LC guild, and i always felt like i was being treated fairly like most others.
@@havoc3135 in most cases many LC guilds do that, but on power items like onslaught girdle, band of accuria, mageblade etc. you want to make sure that the people who get those items will stay in the guild and wont quit the game. thats the basic principle of loot council.
@@havoc3135 what the hell are you even talking about, i came in to my guild as a fresh 60 and put in effort, i dont even know my officers really and i've still gotten good gear, including 2 power items. to be clear LC only works if your guild is somewhat good and knows what they are doing, there are bad apples in everything in life. your logic can be used in almost anything.
@@havoc3135 its not about luck tbh, in the past i have been in LC guilds where i had warning signs about guilds, so i left them. its all about knowing which guild is good. thats why i think LC isnt rly good for more casual guilds, because they require much more effort to be done well.
@@havoc3135 you are complitely missing my point, random roll isnt better, its only better if your guild is casual and dont know what they are doing, and LC is better if they do know what they are doing.
@@havoc3135 under 1% is a understatement, and if you can read i never said casuals cant have loot rolls, infact i said loot rolling is better for casuals, what are u still going on about.
You totally skipped the primary function of EPGP that makes it different from DKP: Decay. Every week, both EP and GP decay by some percentage, usually 10-25%. This prevents people from stockpiling after they are already geared and also incentivizes taking items instead of hoarding for the best item later. Without Decay, EPGP and DKP are exactly the same.
Loot Council can be the best system, but it can also be the worst. It depends on the council. What I mean by best is distributing the loot to clear raids faster in the long run.
My guild is EP:GP with obvious shit like legendaries going to tanks. Works well, been raiding since September with no fights, and most of us are damn near full epics.
What my guild does if no one bids with DKP is they do a second DKP roll where people who are interested bid 0 ( we have a custom addon) then they roll it off to the people who need it. Just an idea :)
I really don't get how hard it is to simply allow for those who need it, MS > OS, roll for it, if no one needs it for MS or OS it gets DE'd and roll for the mats resulting. For the insignificant amount of time this eats up it keeps things completely fair.
But does it though? After losing the roll on the same item for months and months it becomes quite annoying. It can also allow some people to stack a lot of gear just because they are lucky, regardless of how good they are or their dedication to the guild and raids. It's just completely random and some people will hate it when they haven't won a single item in months.
@@Lighthammer18 So people shouldn't enjoy their own personal "Luck"? Oh, because others aren't as "lucky" everyone else should join them in misery...or...no one is that unlucky. Take your pick but why the fuck should anyone totally surrender their chance at anything if they contributed in their role?
@@Blakkrazor69 Because when you join a guild their brand is listed directly under your character name. You're obligated to conform to their rules/philosophy regardless of how you feel about it, and they're entitled to enforce whatever they see fit. Your actions/words now reflect on their brand and the brand always comes before any individual's needs. If you don't agree with that or like that then don't join a guild, join or form PUGS to raid and have fun gambling your gear away
Your EP:GP system still has the massive problem that DKP has of people saving their roles to increase their chance for loot later on. The actual best system would be the combination of DKP or EP:GP with MS -> OS. that way you use a fair system for time spent and you wont waste items. If 3 people need an item but each want to save their DKP they can not spend their points and risk it on a roll rather than the item getting disenchanted. Basically put forward the DKP or EP:GP first and then if no one bids you can go to MS roll and then a OS roll.
That's why you implement a weekly decay, to encourage rolling on gear. You still get some EP banking shenanigans, but those that do are probably just hurting themselves in the long-run.
best system for SOME you mean ... i pity your guild tanks because they will never be able to afford lets say Perdition blade over a rogue that swims in gold whenever he wants to ... and that goes doubly so to healers that will never earn more than mage will ...
@@Asghaad GDKP system now usually has subsidy rules in place, to make sure those not good at gold making roles(tanks and healers) are properly compensated by giving an extra cut of gold as subsidies.
hey hamster, thanks for the video. unfortunately you haven't included the "personal roll loot" system that exists since the new classic launch. it is available via curseforge. could you make a video explaining that system?
How does EP:GP compensate for the fact that when you have a lot of gear, your EP increases convert to a lot less ratio, which greatly favors whoever is new-ish in the guild?
So our guild set a base floor GP equivalent to the EP you'd earn in an MC run, so if you're new coming into the guild raid you're asked to sink the one run cost and then your PR is 1.0
It’s also very common to see a 10% weekly decay so that your GP will gradually get back down to the base 100 after enough weeks without receiving loot. Not to mention you should be receiving far more EP than GP on a weekly basis. Even so.. It is designed to allow newish or more casual members to get some loot.
The only “fair” loot system is either DKP with decay or EP:GP. LC is full of bias and puts too much emotion in choosing who receives what. People get upset and eventually leave. Unless your the GL or Officer, the average raider (unless close with said GL or Officers) will be at the mercy of higher ranking members. Rolling on loot is RNG and no one in the guild has any control over who gets what. If your pugging or doing split guild raids I understand why people would use this system, however it’s basically just the luck of the draw. For example, a casual who raids once a month can join the raid and out roll people that show up to every raid. The item is basically wasted as you will only see that person once a month. Not a good way to gear your guild IMO. DKP or EP:GP rewards players who actually play the game and raid. Also rewards players who help the guild. These loot systems have no bias and no one can be upset about loot. The player determines how much DKP or EP:GP they have and how much they want to spend on an item. Of course you will have a few people who hoard DKP but most guilds have a decay system to offset that. These loot systems ensure loot is distributed evenly throughout the guild and gives players incentive to raid. The people that don’t like DKP systems are either casuals that just want free gear or loot hungry guild leaders and officers.
Keep in mind that someone has to be responsible for the DKP information and even though we have addons and websites for it, sometimes things go wrong either by mistake or intentionally. I think the biggest problem is skipping lesser upgrades. For instance if you have T1 lock/mage shoulders (I don't know why you would but anyways) and T2 drops, spending DKP on them means both that you reduce your DKP and you ruin your chances of getting Blackwing Cabal. And you can't really force people to spend their DKP either. The people who are most likely to skip upgrades like this are usually the most knowledgable players too, which means your potentially best players are nerfing themselves by skipping upgrades while hoping for one of the best items would drop. It can also lead to the players colluding and keeping some people out of the bidding system entirely. Say you have two good mage/warlocks with tons of DKP. They both set a deal where one will pass on Neltharion's Tear while the other passes on Mish'undare. This means that those two items will go for very cheap so they keep their big DKP lead. There are numerous problems with DKP and you need to find a way to deal with them. No system is perfect of course and different systems work best for different guilds and even different versions of the game.
In defense of LC, it works really well if it's handled properly. It fixes many of the problems that the other loot systems have like hoarding, skipping lesser upgrades, colluding with fellow classmates, new guys never receiving any items, freshly promoted raiders immediately getting an item that older raiders have been waiting for a long time etc. It is very time consuming and does take a lot of time and experience to pull off well though and I've seen terrible versions of it in other guilds. I'd also like to add that there isn't just "one" loot council, like with DKP there are many variations and I don't think any two guilds uses it in completely the same way. I've seen loot councils that treat it as essentially a hidden version of DKP or EPGP, so the fairness of those systems shines, but the players can't abuse it because they don't know it's used. I've also seen simple things like making some basic rules and then letting people roll for it. It's also a good way of rewarding people who really put in the effort. One example is paying up the hundreds or even thousands of gold for a certain rare BoE item (Classic) or grind up an Ironfoe, those players could be rewarded for their effort. It can also be something like giving a powerful offspec or PvP item to a warrior that has many times slapped on a shield and taunted the mob/boss to save a wipe. One of our locks immediately started emergency tanking the twin emperors after one of the tanks went down and prevented a wipe. That evening was our first C'thun kill and the council decided to reward that warlock with the first Eye of C'thun. For me the worst part of it is taking items for myself. Even though everyone among the council and the raid agrees I should take it, still feels bad to do it. Hence I'm actually one of the worst geared players in the guild even though I'm a council member with 100% raid attendance and flasks every raid.
I stopped raiding with my guild when my guild started using DKP... as someone who cant raid every time due to my work I quickly came to a conclusion that I will never have enough DKPs to actually buy anything good. I am pugging raids instead and since raids are so easy I even get away with raiding with PvP build lol :D
I think loot council should only be employed when the drop is relevant for progression. If the whole game is on farm i don't think there is any merit to it. For example items that are relevant for the next raid tier should be loot counceled as long as people are not properly equipped for that tier yet. As soon as they are... free game. It is basically need or greed time. The Loot council can still decide whether someone has a legitimate claim to an item but from then on its fair game for everyone.
I understand what you're saying, but personal gain is also a big part of loot distribution. Things like Molten Core are a faceroll on classic, yet there are some items that are still super sought after. Not because Molten Core is so hard, but because it gives a player a big bump in stats, and also bragging rights.
@@HamsterWheelGaming Well that is exactl the thing i am talking about. I think there can be some well defined exceptions (tier set completion, progression for tanks, having a split between raiders and casuals etc...) but in general i would let every one roll on most items. That is how it is employed in my guild for the most part and we have had next to no loot drama. I would not leave it up to personal judgement, if something is a valid loot for a certain spec but make a descision once and keep with it. Basically employ MS>OS.
Honestly, I've used DKP for the majority of Classic and TBC back then and compared to the loot council and MS > OS roll systems I've been using in modern Classic, it's just drama waiting to happen. People absolutely went at each other's throats with dkp whereas with rolls, you just fucking roll. No one has a particular reason to hate anyone for playing games with their point bidding and such. You just roll and someone gets it. Or with a council, they say "this item is best for these classes, now roll" and then you roll. PUGs or leading guilds (for lack of a better term), it just works. I'd probably not raid at all before I'd use dkp, again.
Yo I'm thinking about using DKP for my friends guild in TBC classic if it comes out, would you mind explaining some of the negative situations that occurred in hour experiences please. I want to learn to improve my system. I figure if you have a minimum dkp cost for all items there is less class/roll collusion and if you do a silent or shadow auction where no one sees each others rolls there is no bid raising and stuff like that. Everyone can roll on anything (with in reason, specific items mentioned before raid starts) and there will be a very small decay every month or new raid tier. Seems the most fair to me as in loot council corruption is bound to occur. Would love your thoughts.
Ya I was always the Master Looter back in Vanilla, I always checked those rolling for inspection and always made sure before giving it out. The guild had 0 drama except for 1 night. We had a tier piece drop for mages and all 8 mages rolled 100, so we reroll for those who tied the highest. Then we kept rerolling for about 30 mins because because two people keep tying, its hilarious. The final rolls were a 100 and 99.
Evani Collects The reason you like LC is obviously because you decide who gets what as an officer. LC is definitely not a “fair” way of loot distribution and this is coming from a GL of one of the top guilds on my server.
Hmm that is interesting point about using a shitty item to trick people.. I Might make a suggestion to have the guild leaders make a spreadsheet of all gear given out ect to prevent this.
First example is a tad over exaggerated. Most competent guilds if lc over those shoulders would have a loot history which im pretty sure the addon does track, so the said person who would try that shit would get insta pegged over it.
I think Id probably go with the gold-system for guild-interns, while randoms who joined are paid "handsomely" to forego any lootdrops. This of course would require a larger amount of people to come raiding, but then again, in wotlk you went with 10/25 man raids, and in retail you have flex-raiding. Btw, when i say handsomely, Id consider giving them a set amount of gold, instead of gold that is raised during the raid from loot. Then, the gold that was raised, is first divided by two. one half goes into the guild bank, one half goes to the raid-members. This way, everyone eventually gets loot, and the guild-lead/raid-lead can make sure, that noone leaves empty-handed. The randoms would have been explained that they are "mercenaries" and have therefore no rights to any spoils. This way, all loot stays in the guild while everyone has a fair chance at loot based on effort and work put into the game, which in turn benefits all other guild-members too. Items that were not bid on - which should happen very rarely, as the min-bid can be lowered or entirely cancelled, if noone has any interest - would be disenchanted, the mats put into the guild-bank and could then be bought for a set price later on or sold on the auction house for gold that flows back into the guild.
Hehe epgp is such funny system. Once upon a time my mate joined my guild (guild lead by angry germans btw)... So he got promoted to raider after like 2 weeks and since he didnt obtain any piece of gear in the mean time, he had the highest priority on next piece of gear. So he got bis trinket and then left the guild XDD . After two weeks of being a mamber... Peeps were furious :D Epgp is like shittier version of DKP. Newly invited to guild hobo might have priority over old times raider... Just because. And i mean, EPGP was the worst loot system i ever had in guilds i was member of. Like 60% of our raiders were pissed.
No your friend was just an asshole. My guild put in a check against that. Everyone starts with a high GP, even if they've never touched a piece of gear. That way, you have to put in a few weeks before your priority is even close to regulars. If you want to raid with us a month just to get 1 item, be my guest.
@@mikeyrobinson5355 To be fair my mate just got pissed on an officer. The officer was freaking annoying indeed. Anyway, whole guild was pissed later on. Peeps started leaving guild (mainly cause officers were too stuborn to quit epgp)
@@mikeyrobinson5355 Oh, btw, ppl stopped bidding on small upgrades at all to not lose priority. All were waiting for bis piece of gear to drop to use thier ep, to not get higher gp.
Loot council is by far the best system for loot, it's the best in high mythic raiding and group content always however because this is classic you'll always have that 1 fucking thirsty loser that wants purple no matter what and feel they're entitled to it because they feel they port more effort than anymore. Loot council has flaws because of the people, not because there's a flaw in loot council. If everyone's on the same page it's the smoothest fastest loot system. The need before greed implies if someone understands their BiS or just needing on someone's BIS because its tech an upgrade. No master looter is flawed because anyone can say they need or it's an upgrade. You can give a pally mage blade it is their bis or a druid getting chocker of the fire lord. These are flawed. DKP is always flawed, it's corrupt as all hell because you can have people go in the negative or say they want you to pass someone. dkp usually led to officers geared as hell then on a new raid tier they reset it all to 0 again. You have loot being standard DEs and you have people tossing DKP on system. I've had EPGP for all of wrath and it was probably the worst system I have ever had. Epgp just real to constant resets to ratios and new players leaving after 3 weeks of no loot. And again, classes that dont actually use or need an item getting them.
Loot council is best when using a loose EPGP system. Jimmy the no life would get all the items with DKP. And he will get favored in loot council too for being so dedicated. It's the same thing, bit nothingmgoes to waste
And no matter what, if you’re actually a good and loyal player playing with non IRL “friends”, you’re likely to play for 8 weeks gearing people and their alts without getting to even roll on anything. The ret paladin experience on TBC has been “fun”, you can say. Orange parsing with shit gear wondering how tf am I this unlucky. No game will leave you with literal nothing 50+ hours later.
fairest lootsysthem: lootcouncel names specks eligable to roll on the drop if you won the roll you can only secondary need on all other items /roll 50 or only roll if no first need for the rest of the raid. the council and BS items to officers and everybody will get items so you dont have the poor enh shaman or deepfreeze mages getting shafted by the councel for months
My favorite loot speciality is,"That's hunter gear"
I was raiding up until cata and my guild used a loot council to decide everything. We had each class leader involved, along with the guild master and raid leader. Then there was me. The Auditor. I literally had a spreadsheet of our whole guild's current gear sets and what they recieved from drops previously. Any attempts to "hotswap" were cruelly punished or you were kicked after the 3rd attempt. We were putting a heavy emphasis on gearing our guild evenly to quickly raise our ability to clear raids. We were pretty successful with it as a semi-casual raiding guild, but took some serious dedication at key points to keep it running right.
I dont like loot council. As a prebis mage i only need a few items and imagine when the guild that i was raiding for a long time started using loot councing, an item i wanted dropped, i didnt get it and a spriest with really low gear got. I existed the guild imediatly.
I think that's the point though? Favour improving the group's performance, rather than any individuals.
Q
😊30
A good guild would know you have your t2 shoulder and see what you were trying to do lol
The example is a bit constructed though, because any guild raiding bwl would tell you to stick the ridiculously bad Mage T2 shoulders where the sun won't shine, move your ass to BRD and get a boreal mantle already :D
Runs out of mana mid fight -laughs in t2 shoulders
What we did in our guild: We made a reservation spreadsheet. Everyone can reserve one item of their choice and have priority on that. There's a counter that increases every week you attend the raid, which resets upon changing reservation or getting the item. The higher counter value the higher priority. If multiple people reserve the same item and have the same counter value they roll for it. Unreserved items are raid rolled between pre-determined classes/roles. Roll based system that allows people to target specific items they want. Low drama, some fun RNG and everyone can influence their itemization.
The guild i'm in does the same thing, except for the counter part. The reservation is reset every week so you can choose if you still want that reserve or not, without penalty.
@@vevisel Yeah, we went without a counter at first, but decided to implement it so we could reward raiders who show up and give people a sense of progression. We've had 0 mageblades since launch and some people have been signing up on it since week 3 of classic. Imagine the drama if a newer person came in and won it on their first try.
Could you link an example of this? I'm intrigued in this system as our guild currently uses Loot Council, but this seems a better fit imho.
@@NotGawain It can always be imporved, but atm we let everyone edit the sheet and put their name by the item they want. At raid start we make a copy. After the raid we adjust the counter manually.
A google docs link to the speadsheet we use: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1imHD4j_jtUaoD-GK82yNuyEPe-_bd5Z9wIrQqqNK8o0/edit#gid=0
One item per boss? Patch? Week?
My guild currently uses Ep/Gp and its smooth as hell! We have a team who set up item values and points awarding for raids and donations. Also having a website that has everyone's points and items is amazing! Loving the classic experience we're having . Lots of other guilds dont understand ep/gp and think it's trash (lol) glad you made a video I can send to them to shed the light !
Agreed
Bad thing about dkp is when classes talk amongst themselves and pretty much loot council the items allowing a entire class to have 10 billion dkp saved up for when a non-class specific items drop
whats wrong with it? in my old raidgroup each class discussed and decided together (demokraticly), who should get what class item. The class leaders were NOT leading that discussion, they had to hold themself back. So all DKP were used by all raidmembers just for non-class items... and it worked pritty well:)
@@rapsack7058 ill give you extreme example - you run MC with 3 stable tanks and 10+ DPS Warriors and Rogues and tanks work with each other so they basically take all class specific equipment for minimum bids saving a ton of DKP while dps are in constant DKP war basically going all in on every piece of BiS gear they can get theyr grubby hands on ... then one day Perdition blade drops ... guess what all three tanks have more DKP than any other player in the group which means one of them is getting it ... the next time the first offtank gets it ... the third time the second offtank gets it ...
this problem exists whenever you have limited number of any spec in raid - which means tanks, hunters, druids and often warlocks who get theyr spec specific gear for basically nothing while the mages, rogues and DPS warriors are spending huge amount of points even on set gear simply because there is huge competition.
Here before Twitch summons the bald god.
Dont hate on yo it's me ya boie asmonbald
our guild uses a modified loot council, through a priority system, where each item is discussed beforehand which class/spec gets priority for items and in what order to maximize proper loot going out. its discussed via the officers ( all 12 of us, we have 2 full raids goin on full clears at all times, not including our 3rd raid for alts ). on raid day, we use the list we as officers made and call loot by gambling, aka rolling. some things, are marked for example, as pvp items, like druid tier 1 set, where the whole class rolls on it for pvp reasons. where as like might, has tank prio, followed by fury/arms as off spec. there are items like mageblade, we prio to mages first, followed by warlock/shadowpriests, then healer paladins. since paladins are given prio on aurastone hammer for healing. as a example.
basically, its pre-discussed what spec/class gets what, and all that matters is the gamble aspect. we also set different items in 3 tier's tier 1 being the big ticket items, that are more rare then others, where as others are rated lower. people are then ranked individually in tier 1 to 3 based on attendance. so tier 1 people get tier 1 items, if tier 1 items are not taken by tier 1 people, tier 2 people get a chance at it, and so on. if a tier 2 item drops, tier 1 and 2 roll on it, and if its not needed, the tier 3 people get it. its a very complicated system, but we have 12 officers to manage it, and run the guild of 200 on our little RP-PVP server.
we also host pvp events, RP events, and also, silly-RP events... like the human joke event... basically the long human joke... but with level 1 gnomes on a quest to get to the burning stepps. really fun
we are soon going to host a buy in arena event, for 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 groups. where the winners get a prize money from the accumulated entry fee. and we are working these events into our loot system to encurage people to do more things AND get a slight boost to their rolls ( currently its like +1 to your roll: 100 -> 101 as a example )
Being a disc priest from wrath through some of warlords was awesome. I never needed gear and just stacked tons of points so when some insane item dropped I always got it. There were very few instances where I got items for free because I convinced my guild it wasn't that big of an upgrade and I didn't want to spend points 😂
A common one in wow classic now is roll MS > OS +1, not explained here
This is what my guild is using and everyone is happy.
Yeah our guild uses 1 tier, 1 upgrade and 1 boe piece per run, if no one needs the pieces then they roll for OS/PVP those rolls don’t effect main ones though
it was explained, it was called 'Group Loot' system
Hey hamster, i have been following your content for years now, you deserve Much better spot on youtube. Love your content. Your scripts, many may overlook, is outstanding every time. Best of wishes.
Thanks for the kind words!
DKP systems usually should have a failsafe, where if no-one wants to bid, the item goes for free roll or through loot council... instead of being disenchanted or vendored. Unless it really is not an upgrade for anyone.
dkp is pretty shit and abusable.
We use Suicide Kings and it is by far the most fair loot system. We will use some slight loot council when BWL comes out just to make sure our tanks are priority on tier gear.
Suicide Kings is BY FAR the most fair loot system.
I loved GDKP in Wrath i was a well geared player then and joined those just to make cash loot ship:)
Our guild runs a council-roll system, where the council keeps track of people getting rare and powerful loot (weapons, trinkets, low dropchance rings, ETC), and put people on the bench for loot for winning those items. After that, they call out the classes/specs that are allowed to roll on them, excluding loot-benched players. It means that the only personal favoritism that happens, is when there are meme specs in the raid, such as enhancement, boomkin, ETC, in the raid, that has to be included/excluded for rolls. It is not perfect, since our council doesn't know every item by heart, and need time to make decisions, and mistakes have happened, where rogues were accidentally excluded, due to a collective brainfart, and the council being smaller that night. The council talks it out in discord where we can all hear it, so it feels transparent enough.
Good loot counsil have list off the stuff people have gotten so they cant trick you like that you bring up. Sure new guild members might but it can be fixed if they want to.
agreed, such a silly comment he made there. Only a retarded council would do that. My guild records all the loot we drop and give out
@@drafman1 Unfortunately there are a lot of retarded loot councils, especially on the private servers so luckily we don't have to deal with that anymore since Classic. We've always run loot council with some slight variations over the years and different servers. I think we've only had one guy quit because of it so we've been quite successful. I have heard a lot of stories of corrupt councils though or the council members just not putting the time and effort to make it fair.
Loot Counsil had its prime time back in the old days of vanilla and then with the first expansions and it was the best system in my opinion. Guilds were completely different back then, cause nobody knew how the raid bosses worked. The main goals of guilds back then was to get through the raid. Thats literally what everybody wanted. The item drops were just the icing on the cake. Players were fine with loot counseling the items to the most important and strongest players, because it would mean progress for the whole guild. Especially when Blizzard released some of the more broken bosses it increased the bond between players. Something like this sadly is unimaginable these days, cause everybody wants items. Killing Ragnaros is no longer a big event, but rather an inconvenience that stands between players and their items.
Our casual guild uses loot council, kind of. We still have an open discussion in our specific class channel, everyone is very polite, often passes on gear cause we feel someone else haven't gotten something for a while etc. But at the same time the class leaders are the ones that decide which class should have prio etc.
my guild currently uses eggp and a lot of stuff ends up disenchanted anyway because they are holding points for a bis item. My favorite loot system is loot council but it only works if you trust the people doing it and is sorted fairly.
I was hoping to see Suicide Kings on this list... But to be fair it is extremely old and most people don't know of it.
Ikr, I was waiting for it as well. It's my favorite system.
Because it is almost identical to DKP for a 10 man. It literally works the same way without using actual numbers to keep track of points you rotate full positions and cant horde points.
we have used loot counsil since vanilla but always done in the days up to the raid and uploaded to forum..everyone knows what to expect and no drama... but we are a pritty tight bunch...
My guild uses LC, and it's been fair so far and very transparent. Seniority, attendance, current gear, and bringing consumables (being prepared) is weighed heavily. The council is the founding members of the guild, and every raider updates a google doc with their current gear so no shenanigans. If it's a tie on who should get it, the players roll. An explanation is always given as to why loot was given to a player.
Ah. 3 years too late. I was in a guild which had Loot Council. This was in TBC. All those problems you mentioned - non-existent in the guild I was in. Maybe now, but that's not on the system, but the gamers.
Honestly, another loot system I think is often overlooked cus it's "for noobs" is just rolling if you need shit BUT if you win you get minus X on the next roll. Where X can be 15-30 or whatever. So for every item you win, you get less chance to win, BUT you could also be lucky. USUALLY, over time it evens out with loot distribution. The ML SHOULD decide beforehand if hybrids can roll on lets say cloth gear etcetc, but when I lead with these kind of rolling system, I just say it's a "free for all" for shit, if your class can use it, then roll for it. If it's a "mage BiS" item, then tough luck if another caster wins it.
This can of course be tempered with, and I've seen people say that "BiS" items can ONLY be rolled by said classes that they are BiS for, but that's up the the RL/ML :)
Loved gdkp in wrath. I ran so many runs in ICC and made so much gold. Would run like 5 a week. Had a great reputation so people were always on a wait list to come.
@MaMa DeW I love it as I made the runs each week and ended up with over 5 mil gold from them
My guild just does the basic
Roll main spec
If no one needs main roll off
And if no one needs it disenchant :p
but that also means someone has has won 50 peices is rolling agaisnt someone who has won nothing oftentimes
That system is fucked. It just means whoever rolls the best / most consistent will get all the gear even if they are a sub-par player.
@@fennec7906 I rather get fucked by my rolls, then fucked by other players...
@@ryanpagel426 That makes no sense, that means you're fine with potentially losing 15 straight pieces of gear to players you may be more consistent/skilled than only based off RNG, when you can go in another system and have your consistency/effort taken into account and get what you need/deserve. At that point you're fucking yourself...
imagine only needing 2 pieces in the entire raid, and the week it drops it goes to the not even core raider who just joined A bit back that only shows up half the time lol
Back on Feenix wow on alliance side we hosted BWL weekly and we did several NAXX pugs with WORK IN PROGRESS + my guild (Argent Crusade) for extra money. We were the top 2 tier guilds before they shut down the server, Argent Crusade followed Work in Progress closely to their first KT kill there. So yes GDKP works anywhere if you are motivated enough.
For a new raider, On the DKP systems, one can level the field by bidding ALL of one’s points to make the other players bid much higher numbers, thus, leveling the field.
I play in China and the other day I made 520g off a Gdkp run of MC. As soon as I got payed I bought my epic mount.
Fakeeeeee
My guild uses a modified Konfer Suicide Kings system. If nobody wants to go to bottom of list it's just rolled on. I think it's the best there is if not just telling alone.
Wish list system, combined with loot council, has worked the best for me. Besides that, I give EP:GP 2nd place
That's interesting. Never heard of a wish list comined with loot council. Could you explain what it does/means to the officers exactly?
@@HamsterWheelGaming Everyone in the guild makes a top 5 wishlist of items they want, the item they want the most is listed 1st, then 2nd and so on.
This list is then sent to the guild master, or the officers who are in the loot council(we also rotated who would be in the loot council)
The wishlist would be hidden from everyone in the guild who are not a part of the loot council. The wishlist is "locked" so people can not change the wishlist for an extended period, maybe 2 months or longer. It would always get unlocked when new raid content was released, so people could remove or add new items to the wishlist.
If an item dropped and it was #1 on person A wishlist, person A would get the item. Loot council does not come into play.
In any case an item was on the wishlist and on #1 for person A and person B, the loot council discuss who would get the item.
If an item dropped and nobody had it on their wishlist, but still wanted the item, then we had to roll or the loot council would decide. In these cases, it was usually items that people would expect to get eventually anyway. Example would be tier set pieces like wrist, off-spec / side spec etc. People would not care too much if they lost a roll or what the decision would be from the loot council.
We felt this was a fair way, and it reduces the time needed to distribute loot. It also reduces the human factor in loot council.
To make it more transparent, we also rotated the loot council members sometimes. Not only guild officers would be in the loot council, but also veterans of the guild.
The system distributes loot based on what people want the most first, then loot council would only come into play if 2 or more people had an item on equal priority in their wishlists. It is very efficient and fair, you can also adjust it to be a top 10 list or top 3 or what suits the raid content the most. We never had any drama over loot and people could. Of course we had a human factor with the loot council, but people rarely had the same item on equal priority in their wishlists.
The only problem we had was when new members joined the raiding team, so we had to tell trials they would most likely not get any items on their wishlist for the first few raids. Same as new members join a DKP raid where they had 0 DKP, they would not get any items in most cases.
@@calmyr5798 That's actually a really good system, thanks for your explanation!
My guild does master looter right now, and we're going to be instating something sort of between that and ep:gp for the start of BWL
Thanks! I was always wondering how the different ones worked as I mostly just used the basic masterlooter /roll one, but I see now why the other ones might be better!
We did us GDKP in vanilla in a high end guild but for our alts
You missed the ZSDKP. Zero Sum DKP. Every item has a set price, if you want it you whisper the Master Looter and whoever has the highest DKP gets the item. The DKP spent, is then immediately distributed evenly to the rest of the people in the raid. It rewards attendance and makes it fair. You obviously can go negative on this. The thing is at the end the total sum of the DKP is zero.
when you see that hamsterwheel uploads, its just instaclick.
You can still horde DKP with decay OR EPGP(also with decay). The hording isnt as effective but it still works for the big items. Works for low level raids IMO, not for competitive progression.
Loot council should consist fo not just officers but weekly temporary LC members. Regular(willing) members of raids get a chance to slot into the Loot council. This makes the process MUCH more transparent. It also reduces favoritism. Also, as a general rule, you should never insist that gear goes to yourself, when that gear is up for debate, if you want it, stay silent and let the others decide.
lol at thirsty nerds and girls not mixing well. People will carry and gear girls for a feet pic
Dkp when done right is the best loot system
if you are a top 1000 guild LC is the only option as it is all about getting those kill done quickly and everybody will be of pretty much equal skill so the question is what class/spec/role do you need for later fights.
for the rest EP:GP is just far better while DKP with decay dose fix the hording EP:GP pushes you to grab as much gear as possible as quickly as possible as you will want to decay down your GP as quickly as possible. and in the case of the shoulders they are going to cost less GP than the others which means you can maintain your ratio for other items.
suicide kings + loot concil that does not allow complete bs bids is what I'd go for.... seems like the most decent one.
I like dkp fully kitted out all my tier pieces while we struggled to kill dono so all the priests wanted benediction and we never got it so I was bidding on every tier piece and getting it for low amounts
My favorite loot system has to be EPGP and GDKP
EPGP is the worst thing ever invented.. You practically scare people away from rolling on things that are technically an upgrade if being a small one. Items will not be rolled on and resulting in the guilds overall progression to take a hit.
If you are the only person needing an item, either cause you are the only person of the class who can use it, or every other person already has it. The item should be given to him freely, or at least with a discount GP. It is how capitalism works - remember? Supply and demand? It also serves as a catch up mechanic, for newcommers who dont get punished for not having been there from the begining, and people progress faster overall. EPGP shits all over that and claims to be fair for everyone to save up and roll on what they really need?. BS what it really does is make people go PUG on Onyxia cause you have a way better chance of grabbing an item in a pug where you dont have a bad EPGP score already. So "clap clap" for a system that actually discourages people to raid with their guilds.
The whole notion of calling EP "efford points" is also ridiculous. Efford for showing up to play the game that you play? Its equivalent to breathing air, and receiving EP for that. Hmm where do we have a similar system in place, oh right.. Marxsism! You basically get EP for showing up = being born.
If you want the EPGP system to function like anything that even resemples capitalism, which people who like the system claim it to be mimicing, you sorta need to implement the function of suppy and demand into the mix. Which is a fundemental if you know anything about economics. Therefore items what nobody needs or wants, should be cheaper. Thats how the free market works. But gamers are communists I suppose? "I paid full price last year. and so must you now"!!! Remember that for the next back friday folks! NO DISCOUNTS!
EPGP is neither fair nor is it good for the guilds who use it. It creates a fake sense of competition between guildmates to put their EP into something, but cheats them by ignoring suppy and demand mechanics totally. - yes value of items deminishes over time, so it needs to be a factor if its supposed to work properly.
@@SilentD1 While I don't think EP:GP sounds that great, you do make some dumb comparisons.
"Its equivalent to breathing air, and receiving EP for that." What you are saying is: "It's equivalent to doing your job and get paid." as if that is not supposed to happen.
Seeing that you talk as if you have a great deal of knowledge about economy, I find it strange that you think that getting paid is communism.
To make this system work, just remove the "GP" part. Just make sure people dont get duplicates for whatever reason (before everyone who wants has one), and don't let people get it for memespecs until people have gotten it for main/pvp.
@@3fast5you Its a game not a job, and if it was then you essentially get rewarded for showing up and mashing buttons, not how well you do it.. There is no reward for doing a GOOD job. The worst dps gets the same roll as the best one. What efford is there?
@@SilentD1 By your own logic I can just say "It's a game, not a communist regime".
Of course it's a fucking game, but a more fair comparison IS a job.
A guild can be looked at like a sort of business. Attending raids is your job in the guild. And your payment, either straight up loot that is loot councilled to you, or a fictitious currency that can be traded for gear. It's a fucking job, the only reason it's not a "job job" so to speak, is that you don't pay taxes.
When it comes to how you are rewarded based on performance... I really doubt you can speak for all EP:GP guilds.. I would really think people give you EP for different stuff. Maybe you were in a shit EP:GP guild.
Work is life, so it's no surprise that games simulate work.
It's only recently that we have started dividing personal life from job, and that is a coping mechanism, because most people have terrible jobs, and do not wish to be associated with their job.
No the point of loot council is to give loot to the person that it helps the guild progress the fastest. The faster you progress the faster everyone gets loot. Fairness is a side effect that just happens when the system is run with perfection.
A couple more things about EP:GP that you didn't mention:
Many people consider it to be more appealing than DKP because it is more new player friendly (newer players have a very good ratio early on, almost guaranteeing them at least 1 item early on), and most guilds that run EP:GP have BOTH EP and GP decay by the same percentage value every week, so your ratio does not change but over time it will make your ratio much better.
Loot council requires having excellent moral character and good judgment. Guild masters must choose their officers carefully.
I was in the pug with GDKP loot system. This system might be corrupted with fake bits to increase the prize of the item. However ever I made some agreement with few people about splitting bits. If drops the item someone wants others don't bit
Isn't there also suicide kings? Where when you get an item you go to the bottom of the list and each time an item drops the person who wants it that is highest up the list gets it?
Also suffers from the same problems as DKP, with hoarding your ranking, and passing on upgrades to get your BiS
There was a GDKP hardcore guild on my server (tbc classic) but due to internal problems it felt appart
(The drama tha broke it was that the loot master was lying and kept about 10% of the gold to sell it for IRL money, got known only when they got banned and assumed it on the pug discord of the server)
Loot council only works if the people on it arent selfish or bias, and know what they are doing. luckily i have never been in a bad LC guild, and i always felt like i was being treated fairly like most others.
@@havoc3135 in most cases many LC guilds do that, but on power items like onslaught girdle, band of accuria, mageblade etc. you want to make sure that the people who get those items will stay in the guild and wont quit the game. thats the basic principle of loot council.
@@havoc3135 what the hell are you even talking about, i came in to my guild as a fresh 60 and put in effort, i dont even know my officers really and i've still gotten good gear, including 2 power items. to be clear LC only works if your guild is somewhat good and knows what they are doing, there are bad apples in everything in life. your logic can be used in almost anything.
@@havoc3135 its not about luck tbh, in the past i have been in LC guilds where i had warning signs about guilds, so i left them. its all about knowing which guild is good. thats why i think LC isnt rly good for more casual guilds, because they require much more effort to be done well.
@@havoc3135 you are complitely missing my point, random roll isnt better, its only better if your guild is casual and dont know what they are doing, and LC is better if they do know what they are doing.
@@havoc3135 under 1% is a understatement, and if you can read i never said casuals cant have loot rolls, infact i said loot rolling is better for casuals, what are u still going on about.
That last one sounds like the worst if you are always broke
Time stamps for each lootsystem would be so good! :D
Using GDKP on Onyxia bag, guild keep the gold for example buying repair bot and stuff like that.
You totally skipped the primary function of EPGP that makes it different from DKP: Decay. Every week, both EP and GP decay by some percentage, usually 10-25%. This prevents people from stockpiling after they are already geared and also incentivizes taking items instead of hoarding for the best item later. Without Decay, EPGP and DKP are exactly the same.
The gear you already have on doesn't effect dkp
Loot Council can be the best system, but it can also be the worst. It depends on the council. What I mean by best is distributing the loot to clear raids faster in the long run.
My guild is EP:GP with obvious shit like legendaries going to tanks. Works well, been raiding since September with no fights, and most of us are damn near full epics.
What my guild does if no one bids with DKP is they do a second DKP roll where people who are interested bid 0 ( we have a custom addon) then they roll it off to the people who need it. Just an idea :)
I really don't get how hard it is to simply allow for those who need it, MS > OS, roll for it, if no one needs it for MS or OS it gets DE'd and roll for the mats resulting. For the insignificant amount of time this eats up it keeps things completely fair.
But does it though? After losing the roll on the same item for months and months it becomes quite annoying. It can also allow some people to stack a lot of gear just because they are lucky, regardless of how good they are or their dedication to the guild and raids. It's just completely random and some people will hate it when they haven't won a single item in months.
@@Lighthammer18 So people shouldn't enjoy their own personal "Luck"? Oh, because others aren't as "lucky" everyone else should join them in misery...or...no one is that unlucky. Take your pick but why the fuck should anyone totally surrender their chance at anything if they contributed in their role?
@@Blakkrazor69 Because when you join a guild their brand is listed directly under your character name. You're obligated to conform to their rules/philosophy regardless of how you feel about it, and they're entitled to enforce whatever they see fit. Your actions/words now reflect on their brand and the brand always comes before any individual's needs. If you don't agree with that or like that then don't join a guild, join or form PUGS to raid and have fun gambling your gear away
Your EP:GP system still has the massive problem that DKP has of people saving their roles to increase their chance for loot later on.
The actual best system would be the combination of DKP or EP:GP with MS -> OS. that way you use a fair system for time spent and you wont waste items. If 3 people need an item but each want to save their DKP they can not spend their points and risk it on a roll rather than the item getting disenchanted.
Basically put forward the DKP or EP:GP first and then if no one bids you can go to MS roll and then a OS roll.
That's why you implement a weekly decay, to encourage rolling on gear. You still get some EP banking shenanigans, but those that do are probably just hurting themselves in the long-run.
My guild uses GDKP. Bid on the items and split the money at the end. Best system by far.
best system for SOME you mean ... i pity your guild tanks because they will never be able to afford lets say Perdition blade over a rogue that swims in gold whenever he wants to ... and that goes doubly so to healers that will never earn more than mage will ...
@@Asghaad GDKP system now usually has subsidy rules in place, to make sure those not good at gold making roles(tanks and healers) are properly compensated by giving an extra cut of gold as subsidies.
Gdkp is the most common system used on chinese servers
hey hamster, thanks for the video. unfortunately you haven't included the "personal roll loot" system that exists since the new classic launch. it is available via curseforge. could you make a video explaining that system?
How does EP:GP compensate for the fact that when you have a lot of gear, your EP increases convert to a lot less ratio, which greatly favors whoever is new-ish in the guild?
So our guild set a base floor GP equivalent to the EP you'd earn in an MC run, so if you're new coming into the guild raid you're asked to sink the one run cost and then your PR is 1.0
It’s also very common to see a 10% weekly decay so that your GP will gradually get back down to the base 100 after enough weeks without receiving loot. Not to mention you should be receiving far more EP than GP on a weekly basis. Even so.. It is designed to allow newish or more casual members to get some loot.
For epgp, get the GEPGP addon.
The only “fair” loot system is either DKP with decay or EP:GP.
LC is full of bias and puts too much emotion in choosing who receives what. People get upset and eventually leave. Unless your the GL or Officer, the average raider (unless close with said GL or Officers) will be at the mercy of higher ranking members.
Rolling on loot is RNG and no one in the guild has any control over who gets what. If your pugging or doing split guild raids I understand why people would use this system, however it’s basically just the luck of the draw. For example, a casual who raids once a month can join the raid and out roll people that show up to every raid. The item is basically wasted as you will only see that person once a month. Not a good way to gear your guild IMO.
DKP or EP:GP rewards players who actually play the game and raid. Also rewards players who help the guild. These loot systems have no bias and no one can be upset about loot. The player determines how much DKP or EP:GP they have and how much they want to spend on an item. Of course you will have a few people who hoard DKP but most guilds have a decay system to offset that. These loot systems ensure loot is distributed evenly throughout the guild and gives players incentive to raid. The people that don’t like DKP systems are either casuals that just want free gear or loot hungry guild leaders and officers.
Totally agree, hence why either DKP or EP:GP are defiinitely my favourite as well!
Keep in mind that someone has to be responsible for the DKP information and even though we have addons and websites for it, sometimes things go wrong either by mistake or intentionally. I think the biggest problem is skipping lesser upgrades. For instance if you have T1 lock/mage shoulders (I don't know why you would but anyways) and T2 drops, spending DKP on them means both that you reduce your DKP and you ruin your chances of getting Blackwing Cabal. And you can't really force people to spend their DKP either. The people who are most likely to skip upgrades like this are usually the most knowledgable players too, which means your potentially best players are nerfing themselves by skipping upgrades while hoping for one of the best items would drop. It can also lead to the players colluding and keeping some people out of the bidding system entirely. Say you have two good mage/warlocks with tons of DKP. They both set a deal where one will pass on Neltharion's Tear while the other passes on Mish'undare. This means that those two items will go for very cheap so they keep their big DKP lead.
There are numerous problems with DKP and you need to find a way to deal with them. No system is perfect of course and different systems work best for different guilds and even different versions of the game.
MS>OS is also very fair with the exception that you can be healer rolling on dps as your main spec if you specify
In defense of LC, it works really well if it's handled properly. It fixes many of the problems that the other loot systems have like hoarding, skipping lesser upgrades, colluding with fellow classmates, new guys never receiving any items, freshly promoted raiders immediately getting an item that older raiders have been waiting for a long time etc. It is very time consuming and does take a lot of time and experience to pull off well though and I've seen terrible versions of it in other guilds. I'd also like to add that there isn't just "one" loot council, like with DKP there are many variations and I don't think any two guilds uses it in completely the same way. I've seen loot councils that treat it as essentially a hidden version of DKP or EPGP, so the fairness of those systems shines, but the players can't abuse it because they don't know it's used. I've also seen simple things like making some basic rules and then letting people roll for it. It's also a good way of rewarding people who really put in the effort. One example is paying up the hundreds or even thousands of gold for a certain rare BoE item (Classic) or grind up an Ironfoe, those players could be rewarded for their effort. It can also be something like giving a powerful offspec or PvP item to a warrior that has many times slapped on a shield and taunted the mob/boss to save a wipe. One of our locks immediately started emergency tanking the twin emperors after one of the tanks went down and prevented a wipe. That evening was our first C'thun kill and the council decided to reward that warlock with the first Eye of C'thun.
For me the worst part of it is taking items for myself. Even though everyone among the council and the raid agrees I should take it, still feels bad to do it. Hence I'm actually one of the worst geared players in the guild even though I'm a council member with 100% raid attendance and flasks every raid.
Love the loot council explanation, the drama is so real
I stopped raiding with my guild when my guild started using DKP... as someone who cant raid every time due to my work I quickly came to a conclusion that I will never have enough DKPs to actually buy anything good. I am pugging raids instead and since raids are so easy I even get away with raiding with PvP build lol :D
Loot council is the best by far.
am i going mad or is there a door bell ringing in this video? i kept thinking someone was at my door./
2 months no loot, is this normal?
Ever heard of loot lists?
I think loot council should only be employed when the drop is relevant for progression. If the whole game is on farm i don't think there is any merit to it. For example items that are relevant for the next raid tier should be loot counceled as long as people are not properly equipped for that tier yet. As soon as they are... free game. It is basically need or greed time. The Loot council can still decide whether someone has a legitimate claim to an item but from then on its fair game for everyone.
I understand what you're saying, but personal gain is also a big part of loot distribution. Things like Molten Core are a faceroll on classic, yet there are some items that are still super sought after. Not because Molten Core is so hard, but because it gives a player a big bump in stats, and also bragging rights.
@@HamsterWheelGaming Well that is exactl the thing i am talking about. I think there can be some well defined exceptions (tier set completion, progression for tanks, having a split between raiders and casuals etc...) but in general i would let every one roll on most items. That is how it is employed in my guild for the most part and we have had next to no loot drama. I would not leave it up to personal judgement, if something is a valid loot for a certain spec but make a descision once and keep with it. Basically employ MS>OS.
Honestly, I've used DKP for the majority of Classic and TBC back then and compared to the loot council and MS > OS roll systems I've been using in modern Classic, it's just drama waiting to happen. People absolutely went at each other's throats with dkp whereas with rolls, you just fucking roll. No one has a particular reason to hate anyone for playing games with their point bidding and such. You just roll and someone gets it. Or with a council, they say "this item is best for these classes, now roll" and then you roll. PUGs or leading guilds (for lack of a better term), it just works.
I'd probably not raid at all before I'd use dkp, again.
Yo I'm thinking about using DKP for my friends guild in TBC classic if it comes out, would you mind explaining some of the negative situations that occurred in hour experiences please. I want to learn to improve my system. I figure if you have a minimum dkp cost for all items there is less class/roll collusion and if you do a silent or shadow auction where no one sees each others rolls there is no bid raising and stuff like that. Everyone can roll on anything (with in reason, specific items mentioned before raid starts) and there will be a very small decay every month or new raid tier. Seems the most fair to me as in loot council corruption is bound to occur. Would love your thoughts.
what lvl are you in classic?
50
time stamps?
Ya I was always the Master Looter back in Vanilla, I always checked those rolling for inspection and always made sure before giving it out. The guild had 0 drama except for 1 night. We had a tier piece drop for mages and all 8 mages rolled 100, so we reroll for those who tied the highest. Then we kept rerolling for about 30 mins because because two people keep tying, its hilarious. The final rolls were a 100 and 99.
I'm a big fan of Suicide Kings
I like MS>OS . seems the fairest
You didn't cover AKP.
What is it?
i like loot council the best personally, having been an officer who has to deal with the loot distribution i found it the most fair
Evani Collects The reason you like LC is obviously because you decide who gets what as an officer. LC is definitely not a “fair” way of loot distribution and this is coming from a GL of one of the top guilds on my server.
Lol yeah, you're not biased at all
I like lc also, really comes down to how well your guild is together.
Hmm that is interesting point about using a shitty item to trick people.. I Might make a suggestion to have the guild leaders make a spreadsheet of all gear given out ect to prevent this.
why can't it just be a loot for everyone like in normal dungeons?
What about Suicide Kings?
You missed suicide kings as a loot system.
Rolling is the best hands down most fair system leave to RNG .. Loot council is pure cancer rolling prevents drama
Me and my guild use DKP
/roll 1 (1-100)
How about rolling 97, you getting all hyped up, Master looter saying there's 2 seconds left to roll and then out of nowhere someone rolls a 98
@@HamsterWheelGaming that's the dream
@Faktor2music Same :)
First example is a tad over exaggerated. Most competent guilds if lc over those shoulders would have a loot history which im pretty sure the addon does track, so the said person who would try that shit would get insta pegged over it.
I think Id probably go with the gold-system for guild-interns, while randoms who joined are paid "handsomely" to forego any lootdrops. This of course would require a larger amount of people to come raiding, but then again, in wotlk you went with 10/25 man raids, and in retail you have flex-raiding.
Btw, when i say handsomely, Id consider giving them a set amount of gold, instead of gold that is raised during the raid from loot. Then, the gold that was raised, is first divided by two. one half goes into the guild bank, one half goes to the raid-members. This way, everyone eventually gets loot, and the guild-lead/raid-lead can make sure, that noone leaves empty-handed. The randoms would have been explained that they are "mercenaries" and have therefore no rights to any spoils.
This way, all loot stays in the guild while everyone has a fair chance at loot based on effort and work put into the game, which in turn benefits all other guild-members too.
Items that were not bid on - which should happen very rarely, as the min-bid can be lowered or entirely cancelled, if noone has any interest - would be disenchanted, the mats put into the guild-bank and could then be bought for a set price later on or sold on the auction house for gold that flows back into the guild.
Hehe epgp is such funny system. Once upon a time my mate joined my guild (guild lead by angry germans btw)... So he got promoted to raider after like 2 weeks and since he didnt obtain any piece of gear in the mean time, he had the highest priority on next piece of gear. So he got bis trinket and then left the guild XDD . After two weeks of being a mamber... Peeps were furious :D
Epgp is like shittier version of DKP. Newly invited to guild hobo might have priority over old times raider... Just because. And i mean, EPGP was the worst loot system i ever had in guilds i was member of. Like 60% of our raiders were pissed.
No your friend was just an asshole. My guild put in a check against that. Everyone starts with a high GP, even if they've never touched a piece of gear. That way, you have to put in a few weeks before your priority is even close to regulars. If you want to raid with us a month just to get 1 item, be my guest.
That's what I was just thinking about epgp, nothing in place to stop hoarding
@@mikeyrobinson5355 To be fair my mate just got pissed on an officer. The officer was freaking annoying indeed.
Anyway, whole guild was pissed later on. Peeps started leaving guild (mainly cause officers were too stuborn to quit epgp)
@@mikeyrobinson5355 Oh, btw, ppl stopped bidding on small upgrades at all to not lose priority. All were waiting for bis piece of gear to drop to use thier ep, to not get higher gp.
loot council + a dkp system + rolls. lol a hybrid....no an abomination...
Loot systems, also known as "s**t-show scripts".
Loot council is by far the best system for loot, it's the best in high mythic raiding and group content always however because this is classic you'll always have that 1 fucking thirsty loser that wants purple no matter what and feel they're entitled to it because they feel they port more effort than anymore.
Loot council has flaws because of the people, not because there's a flaw in loot council. If everyone's on the same page it's the smoothest fastest loot system.
The need before greed implies if someone understands their BiS or just needing on someone's BIS because its tech an upgrade.
No master looter is flawed because anyone can say they need or it's an upgrade. You can give a pally mage blade it is their bis or a druid getting chocker of the fire lord. These are flawed.
DKP is always flawed, it's corrupt as all hell because you can have people go in the negative or say they want you to pass someone. dkp usually led to officers geared as hell then on a new raid tier they reset it all to 0 again. You have loot being standard DEs and you have people tossing DKP on system.
I've had EPGP for all of wrath and it was probably the worst system I have ever had. Epgp just real to constant resets to ratios and new players leaving after 3 weeks of no loot. And again, classes that dont actually use or need an item getting them.
Loot council is best when using a loose EPGP system.
Jimmy the no life would get all the items with DKP. And he will get favored in loot council too for being so dedicated. It's the same thing, bit nothingmgoes to waste
Odd you don't even mention the most used system....
I still cant wait to tell you the joke
And no matter what, if you’re actually a good and loyal player playing with non IRL “friends”, you’re likely to play for 8 weeks gearing people and their alts without getting to even roll on anything.
The ret paladin experience on TBC has been “fun”, you can say. Orange parsing with shit gear wondering how tf am I this unlucky. No game will leave you with literal nothing 50+ hours later.
fairest lootsysthem:
lootcouncel names specks eligable to roll on the drop
if you won the roll you can only secondary need on all other items /roll 50 or only roll if no first need for the rest of the raid.
the council and BS items to officers and everybody will get items so you dont have the poor enh shaman or deepfreeze mages getting shafted by the councel for months
Master looter isnt bad at all.
GKP or GDKP is the best