Date with the Rat King | The Last of Us Part II (Part 6)
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- Опубліковано 13 бер 2023
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Main thing for me on why I liked Abby's story is that it's not that her or Ellie are "worse" than the other, they're on the same journey but different paths. It's the same one Joel was on in the first game.
Abby becoming a ruthless Scar killer and training constantly was to get strong enough to kill her dad's killer. It's like an anime arc. After she killed Joel she realized it didn't bring her the relief she expected (the nightmares kept going, PTSD, etc.).
Ellie is currently going through what Abby was going through in between TLOU 1 and 2. Killing Abby would then bring her to where Abby is now. Unfulfilled, full of regret and looking for purpose.
Essentially it's like this:
Story beat 1: Loss.
Story beat 2: Rage.
Story beat 3: Redemption.
Joel in TLOU loses Sarah, turns into a bitter and brutal killer until he meets Ellie and forms a connection that brings him back to being happy. To save that person, he puts Abby into her own Act 1. Her Act 2 culminates in killing Joel. You play as her in Act 3 where she's going through the same thing as Joel in TLOU 1. And her Act 2 is Ellie's Act 1, leading to Ellie's rage which is the part of Ellie's story you play in this game.
This is a good description i think everyone problem is like sheera said there just isn't enough time spent with abby for at least the average players to make those connections as all their worried about is how ellie feels because she was in both games.
nicely put
Agreed. You'll find a lot of the game's vocal detractors hung up on this imaginary moral contest between Ellie and Abby and using that as an excuse to go after the creators and fans who disagree with that emphasis. Each character has so much going on and you miss that richness when all you see is red.
Thank you for laying this out. Abby's arc is way less about redemption and more about healing, finding a purpose and opening up her ability to love again, which as you said is almost identical to Joel's arc in part 1. It's a shame a lot of people don't see it, but that might reflect some issues with the game's execution.
True enough, it makes me sad that it isn't working on Roshi as it did on me
Also for the end conversation bit, if Ellie doesn’t abandon Jesse on their search for Tommy to get revenge, she doesn’t kill Owen and Mel, and she doesn’t leave the map leading Abby to them. That’s the point. Her selfish decision to abandon Tommy in that moment leads to the death of Jesse.
That's all I was trying to tell them but they took my comments completely different
But they don't know about the map yet, so it may be a spoiler
@@ashaking6505 Ellie drops the map and it lingers on it as it soaks in Owen and Mel’s blood. I think that’s pretty obvious.
@@mattb7479to me it felt more like emphasizing what ellie had just done / a metaphor, not foreshadowing for Abby finding the map
@@TheFlowey27 I didn't mean the symbolism of the map filling with blood, just alluding to the specific scene. Ellie obviously killed Owen and Mel, and then Abby finds her and says you killed my friends. Her killing Owen and Mel instead of tracking down Tommy with Jesse ended up getting Jesse killed. It works whether you made the map connection or not.
Joel's death gave Abby no peace... that's what I think they were trying to convey. Ellie was Selfish because if she had gone with Jesse to find Tommy, Mel and Owen wouldn't b ded.
It’s not about Mel and Owen being dead. It’s about how Ellie killing Mel cause Ellie to freak out and drop her map. That map was later found by Abby and lev and they went to find them at the theater. That ends with Jessie dead and Tommy handicapped. And Ellie and Dina beat to shit. If Ellie would’ve gone with Jessie, they would’ve had Tommy, probably still ran into manny and Abby eventually because we see Abby and yara and manny interact with Tommy at the marina. Either way her selfish decision lead to a bunch of bad shit
@mrdavman13 You kinda just typed the rest of the obvious events. The reason I talked about Mel and Owen's significance is that because of the moment Ellie killed Owen and Mel, she reacted I shock and drops the map, so I just explained below why it is.
If Ellie went with Jesse they find Tommy, Manny would still be killed by Tommy. My stance is Ellie would not have overreacted and killed Mel because Jesse and Tommt would have provided more of a presence.
I understand that Ellie's reaction after Killing Mel and Owen led to her dropping the map, which led Abby back to Ellie's place... that's obvious in the story.
I simply stated that LITERALLY if Ellie followed Jesse all of that wouldn't happen and Ellie would have kept her map and Abby wouldn't have found them, Mel and Owen would be alive and it's all because it would have been Elli Jesse and Tommt versus Owen and Mel...instead of Ellies 1 verses 2 situation.
@@CasClips129 duh I agreed with you
@mrdavman13 well duh, glad we did.
Roshi you're completely misreading the dream. You have it completely backwards. She doesn't think this one good act redeemed her or bought her forgiveness and that's why she saw him in the dream. She saw her dad in the dream and THAT was the wakeup call for her. Her being able to see her dad in the dream told her "Oh God, what have I become. He would have never wanted to see me this way."
THATS what caused her change of heart and caused to her to back for Lev and Yara. Because it's the type of thing her dad would do.
He also misinterpreted Abby's "I had to" at the very end.
This isn't a karma thing. It was never a karma thing. But if you want to pretend it was, you CAN make the argument that it was when Lev first asked her in the hotel. At this point, when Yara asks her the question again (because why would the writers bother having Abby answer the question AGAIN if her answer isn't actually different?) it isn't about karma. She felt an obligation because at this point, she's grown to care about Yara and Lev and protecting them is a natural impulse. As another TLOU character said, Abby has "found something to fight for."
I can't quite remember who said that? Was his name Cole? I know it rhymes with "Cole". It'll come back to me.
@@SetsunaF916 EXACTLY! Yeah Abby's journey is a direct reflection of Joel's journey for sure.
I think you're correct in that Abby is helping the Scar kids partly due to her consciousness and that that's selfish, but I believe that is intentional and that Abby is not supposed to be fully redeemed by doing so. By exacting her revenge against Joel, she has done something so terrible that cannot be so simply redeemed.
Also, you might have missed it, but Ellie left her map at the aquarium after killing Owen and Mel, which implies that is how Abby found them at the theatre and killed Jessie. Thus, the point about Ellie also being selfish for her revenge also rings true, because if she had just followed Jessie to find Tommy, Jessie would still be alive.
Yeah, I think a lot of people get so caught up in the "This side is right and this side is wrong" idea that they end up completely missing the point.
I dont know why ppl take it as they are trying to force you to forgive Abby or find her redeemed. That is up to you as the player. Being redeemed isnt just that easy it will be a life time thing you have to go through. Kinda makes me think of the journey a character in Vinland saga has set off on.
Literally the point of Abby's part of the game is for her to be redeemed. To see things from her side of life. To show she isn't a monster they introduced her ass in the beginning, while Ellie appeared more innocent in a sense but now is fueled by vengeful anger making her the monster. They basically had them switch roles
@@TheDovanAmerican I disagree. The game itself shows she is trying to redeem herself but not everyone will see her as redeemed. Mel is an example of that.
@@layedbackthomas yeah this makes the most sense.
Exactly it's not about her being forgiven or redeemed, it's about moving on. If she did a horrible thing already, okay, she can't take it back. She can't do anything about that. The only thing she can do is try to be better.
@@TheDovanAmericanpretty sure writers literally said with their own words the point was not for her to be redeemed or liked, just understood.
I think what got the chat most annoyed was you saying her " arc wasn't hitting" because when people usually say stuff like that it places the fault at the creators feet. I personally don't think the writers wanted you to feel like she was redeemed that's up to the player.
If I understood correctly, you were saying it in the context of the story and placing it at Abbys feet in a "This doesn't rectify what you did" way and that miscommunication continued the whole discussion
Yesterday Roshi: "Her arms not broken, Yeah it's just Ketchup on her arm. All they gotta do is take her to Mel".
Mel and Abby: "The arm gotta come off".
Present day Roshi:" 😒", lol.
I get it if you don't like Abby's redemption thing but I really think it's much deeper than her trying to reset her karma. Like the first game, is about her learning to let go of the pain of the past and learning to open herself to human relationships once again like Joel with Sarah/Ellie.
its exactly like joel. Abby is basically what Joel is to everyone he kills. people forget that joel is a savage killer. and when he was given a chance to redeem this world full of hate and murder and caos he instead saved ellie. i love ellie but you cannot deny what joel did is f'ked up. now ellie has to live in this world where her loved ones will always die soon and when they die she will always feel the guilt that there isnt a cure. if i was joel i would of let ellie go.
Y’all gotta understand roshi is a natural villain it takes ALOT to get him to care about someone
Kudos for trying to break it down for them but I think we need to accept Sheera and Roshi will never really like Abby. At least Roshi is transparent and simple about it. Sheera repeatedly criticizes Abby but excuses Ellie for the same stuff. A hypocritical broken record.
Roshi: "Y'all always want to take the moral high ground...
Abby: *Does anything*
Roshi: *Takes moral high ground*
😂😂😂😂
@@HiMyNameIsDannny Gotta be honest, part of the reason the game likely isn't hitting is because chat and Sheera keep baiting him into rehashing old arguments the entire time. He hasn't really even been able to pay attention to any of Abby's arc.
He missed Lev's WHOLE outting.
correction: this story is set months after joels death not 2 days later, it was winter remember :D
Exactly like Abby didn't decide to do better the next day, months later she was still hurting and turned it around.
@@LangkeeLongkeestill wasn’t shown. It’s a game . What this game desperately needed honest…was more Abby lol
@@flameron1 it was shown... Did you play the game? 😭😭
Lmao I thought Roshi was trolling the all time during the arm debate last episode I'm dead
I respectfully disagree with Roshi's take on Abby's motivations. Redemption is more of a narrative concept, a big authored idea. Abby began her journey in this world (as far as we've been shown) as a freedom fighter, the child of a Firefly associate. Her time with the WLF was more of a natural transition after the dissolution of the Fireflies rather than her core identity, which suited her growing aggression and desire for revenge. We conflate character motivations with creator intent all the time, but what we are seeing is not Abby redeeming herself after killing Joel so much as her gradual reclamation of her better nature. She seemingly became an accomplished killer to compensate for her helplessness when her father died, not unlike how Joel became a ruthless survivor after Sarah was killed.
This this this!!!
I was the person who wrote the comment he read about him thinking she has ulterior motives 🥲 I wasn’t trying to be rude, just discussing, but to me it’s painfully obvious Abby isn’t trying to go to heaven or something - she knows she doesn’t deserve to. I think it’s because Roshi just doesn’t seem to see any good in her, which isn’t fair to her character.
But again, I’ve played this game three times and they haven’t even finished it, and i’ve had 3 years to marinate the story in my head - however if by the end of the game he still thinks she doesn’t genuinely cares for those kids then I don’t know what to even say lol
When he said “you people can’t ignore what the game says” I kind of wanted to scream 😅 I know exactly what the game says, I just have a different interpretation of it and I can see his point of view!
I think Abby being a clear reflection of Joel, it simply makes sense that she’d care for Lev and Yara just like how Joel didn’t care for Ellie at first but eventually he did! And he wasn’t doing it because of bad karma he was caring, either. He made a promise to Tess, but he never thought he was a good person out of nowhere and that his bad karma was lifted off just because he saved Ellie.
@@Lari_A Yeah, kind of comes with the territory since he has to stay on top of a community. They're experiencing the game through a meta filter even though they're doing their best to be true to themselves. I'm just glad their opinions of the story aren't getting in the way of actually enjoying what TLOU2 has to offer, which is a lot and then some. 😁
Good point but f her. She killed Joel
PREACH PREACH PREACH!!! You have to have a great open mind to enjoy and understand this story. I don’t think people will enjoy this story if they continue to obsess over Part One. The ENDING of the first game should’ve literally had you thinking about consequences lol. I don’t think Abby is at all trying to make up for slaying Joel.
I really like this game on so many levels. Similar to what Roshi said last stream about how it bringing up discussions is great.
One of the basic story beats when it comes to Abby is that she's Joel 2.0. What Joel did after he lost Sarah sounds pretty horrible. But you continue to root for his redemption regardless because we have a connection with him and NOT with the people he hurt. This is an example of you seeing Abby's sins vs not seeing Joel's we've only heard of Joel's sins. But we've seen his trauma and we immediately empathized regardless of what we heard later. It's the opposite with abby, and I enjoy the challenge the story puts on. By the end of the story I was still on Joel and Ellie's side because of my bias, but I understand and appreciate all character angles. Formulating the story so that we form a Bond with Abby's group before they kill Joel is easy and basic to me. But challenging you to think past your hatred is one of the reasons I like it. It's really like no other.
Everyone forgets at the end of the first game everyone had a choice except for Ellie. Ellie didn't get to choose for her brain to be dissected while she was put under, the fireflies and Marlene just decided for her, which led to Joel's decision. And abby's father had a choice to get out of the way or try and fight Joel and he chose to stand in his way and perform a surgery on a child WITHOUT HER CONSENT. This led to Joel's decision. If marlene and the fireflies just asked Ellie or gained her consent to perform the surgery she probably would have said yes and could have avoided the whole chain of events. But they never gave her that choice, so in my opinion, that's the moment that started everything that happened afterwards and into the second game.
The first dream wasn’t a 1 time thing, she’s been having them ever since her dad died. Her anger fueled her need for revenge and she hasn’t been at peace for years. Even after killing Joel they never stopped. She realized that the revenge did nothing for her even after all those years of working towards revenge. She became a scar top killer and did all that training and getting swole, for the sole purpose of revenge. Joel killed not only her dad but everyone she knew in that camp. Joel was the single thing driving her forward. And killing him did nothing for her, and now she’s lost. So yea her knowing she left those kids to die made her feel guilty so she is now helping them. But she isn’t doing “for redemption” knowingly, she’s just doing it because it feels like she should do it. And after doing it, that’s the first night that she’s had a peaceful sleep/the nightmare wasn’t a nightmare in years.
I'm sad that the game isn't working as much for Roshi as it did for me, and I really like how he expresses his opinion, I found it rare to see people criticize the game or story without being overly aggressive and dismissing other people's experiences, Roshi's respectfulness makes me enjoy this even tho he isn't having the best of times like I hoped.
To address some of y'all's points at the end, firstly, Ellie was selfish multiple times, like, she chose to continue going even after finding out Dina was pregnant and chose to go after Abby at the aquarium over going to get Tommy, she does come around at the end when they're all together but I think that's not even the point, I don't think they're trying to say one of them is better or "more right"/"less wrong" than the other, both are/were wrong and now are having to deal with it. Secondly, the dream sequence is to show Abby is starting to heal from her trauma, not that she is just good now, maybe that's cause she ended up saving kids from the faction she saw only as enemies and it clarified something deep down, or maybe its because she finally thinks she's doing something actually positive in a long time, hell, there could be several explanations and it could be all of them or none of them, the human mind is not a simple thing to understand.
I also think y'all's expectations and previous experiences with other media are affecting things here, from the start of Abby's part y'all took it as if you were supposed to feel bad for her and grow to care about her, but to me Naughty Dog is just trying to make you let go of that bloodlust and hate we start off with Ellie and show how Abby is also a human, who obviously severely fucked up and did unforgivable shit, but at no time are any excuses made, I think there is no effort to paint Abby in a better light than Ellie or anything, we're shown the scene of her killing Joel again at the beginning of her part just to make us hate again for a reason, just like we see people like Owen criticize her for what she did.
I think what the devs were aiming for was for us to let go of the hate and at least not think Abby has to die still, that's why we go through a similar journey with her and Lev as did Joel and Ellie, the difference is we didn't see Joel kill the innocents he tells Ellie he did before we start the first game, now if that's not working for y'all then that's really too bad, it did with me and it made the experience I had with this game be unmatched by any other media tbh, I guess no story works for everyone, whats important is that the people behind it are proud of what they made and that both of you can still appreciate what you think the game did right in your opinion.
Love you guys
I think it's a result of playing a game like this with a literal army of people telling him what to think in real time.
Abby is evil. All my homies hate Abby.
@@kyeda What the fuck are you talking about?
@@kyeda you’re in the minority here, sorry.
@@porter9494 You honestly sound like a kid
I think there definitely are some things that you guys still need to play through that might change your opinions - especially on two points that were brought up in the discussion in the end: Abby’s motives in helping Yara and Lev, and about how revenge is actually affecting Ellie.
Though we disagree on most things so far, I think these discussions are very fun to have and I still enjoy your playthrough a lot! :)
Just wanted to say - Abby’s friends don’t hate her! 😅 The only person who doesn’t like Abby is Mel and that’s mostly because of Owen, not much to do with Joel.
I wouldn’t say Abby “dragged her friends across the country to get her revenge” either. All of her friends are from Salt Lake City - meaning they’re ex-fireflies, meaning they had their own vendetta and reason to go after Joel, too. Not just supporting their friend, but going after the “smuggler” who wiped an entire hospital of people they knew and were possibly friends with, including their leader - who they believed was saving the world. And as far as they know, Joel doomed the entire world, too!
Also - thank you so much for understanding Lev and I’m very thankful you guys support trans characters and people. It does mean the world!
As someone who likes the game, Abby and the story. I can tell that when they finish the game their opinions will not change dfgdfgfdg.(and that's okay)
Disagreement isn't even the main issue in the fandom IMO. It's the lack of civil discussion. You can tell the angry kids and the old babies apart by how low they try to land their blows on the characters, creators, and fellow fans.
@@15arael I’m still hopeful 🥲 hahah
(But seriously - it’s okay. There’s just things to come that directly affect and change some things they said - like for example Ellie putting revenge first before Dina, Jesse, Tommy, etc)!
@@heavenoheck9664 I think discussing this game is a lot of fun with people who have open minds. With other people… not so much! 😅
@@15arael Yeah, which is perfectly fine too. Honestly, they spelled out their personal positions very clearly at the end, and it isn't any of the generic fandom/hatedom stuff.
6:14 Stream Starts
Thanks
I’m so glad you guys don’t hate the story and have had an open minded thought process throughout the play through.
I can definitely understand your opinions on Abby’s arc and I only wanna hope the rest of the game changes that opinion somewhat. Loving the streams and play through!!!
I don't think it will tho.
Yall be doing your hardest to defend Joel and Ellie on the same shit you condemn Abby for a feel lol. That is kinda one point of the game though. The whole tribalism and being way more understanding when it comes to yourself or on your "side". Like if the first game was just about abby and her dad/friends and ppl loved it. Then ppl would be making more excuses for Abby and being mad at Joel and Ellie
Abby killed her own people to save Lev, yet blames Joel for saving his daughter. She's a hypocrite.
I don’t get why you’re talking about character arcs and regression(going backwards) when you haven’t completed the game. That’s a discussion for the end game.
man the debates were crazy!
Great stream overall, excited to see you beat this game!
47:00 Through another dig at Abby, Sheera points out Abby's audacity for wanting revenge despite inflicting death herself yet doesn't say the same about Ellie's revenge. Pretty frustrating watching Sheera still being hypocritical. 47:10 Abby felt guilty about not saving her dad. That's why the nightmare takes place in the hospital. She doesn't feel guilty about killing Joel even though he saved her life. There's literally nothing in the nightmare that implies guilt about Joel.
Abby killed her own people to save Lev, yet blames Joel for saving his daughter. She's a hypocrite.
@@porter9494 Don't recall Abby ever saying anything against Joel saving Ellie. Her problem was Joel killing her dad. I do agree Abby and Ellie are hypocrites at times and that is the point of the game's message about the cycle of violence and the futility of revenge.
No, sheera is not a hypocrite. You and abby are hypocrites, you just doesn't understand sheera. She is considering everything that just happened in this game like in each point of view which is if you think about it Ellie's "revenge" is different than Abby's "revenge" that just didn't consider nor tried to ask joel about it. She could've atleast talked about it lol
The point of this whole thing isn't, "violence bad," or, "revenge bad," or, "Ellie is right/wrong," or, "Abby is right/wrong," or, "Joel did/didn't deserve it,"...the point of the story is that getting even doesn't fix what's happened, may make it worse, and possibly creates new problems you hadn't anticipated. Conversely, doing something good is always worthwhile, even if it is difficult, or causes you pain. Further, a good or selfless act is a better way of overcoming the trauma of the past than a selfish or violent act is. Put another way, being constructive in the present is a better path to healing than being destructive over the past is.
revenge bad
@@grelkie Even if you wanted to simplify it, the more applicable route might be... "Revenge is hollow". Good and or bad is left up to the person enacting it and who it's being enacted on, but it will more or less be hollow regardless.
@@kyeda source: trust me bro.
"So much of this game is about both survivor’s guilt and Ellie reconciling with her last few years with Joel. What those were, how culpable she was in this whole situation with the Fireflies, in Joel’s pain and hurt, in rejecting Joel. Ellie is an inherently internal character. It was a vehicle where we could give you some insight into what she’s thinking and understand how she’s constantly being pulled or swept back into the past. This quest for Joel is about righting a wrong that can’t be made right. It’s about living in the past, about reexamining all those moments in your life now with this new context.
Looking back on that moment in the museum and thinking, “That was our last great trip together.” Thinking back about that conversation on the porch. “I didn’t know that was going to be our last conversation.” What does that mean? It allows for both Ellie and the audience to continue examine and RECONTEXTUALIZE WHAT'S DRIVING HER."
Moral of the story - don't skip literature classes. "Objectively false"... jfc
To add to OP, while I'm skimming this interview:
"I don’t think we want to be prescriptive about how you should feel about their redemption. It’s more focused on the fact that - especially focusing on the Abby narrative, she wasn’t sleeping. She wasn’t happy. *Where Ellie’s story ends is where Abby’s story starts.* She has this big moment. She confronts her demons, literally, and then she’s left with that empty feeling, this inability to sleep. She’s ostracized herself from her friends. Through her relationship with Lev and Yara, she is able to sleep. She’s able to find a way to see beyond her ego. It pulls her out and makes her supplementary member of society, in a way that she hadn’t been before. However you feel that is valid."
@@kyeda Your comprehension of complex narrative is...rudimentary...at best. Also, I doubt you could provide a source for that writer anecdote, other than, "I made it the fuck up." Even if there is a credible source, I'm willing to bet that the writer in question said a hell of a lot more than, "revenge bad." I don't blame you, since you were likely unable to parse the correct context at the time. This can happen when you allow yourself to be blinded by rage due to the game's daring inclusion of, "mean girl with muscles and a grudge." Also, I would seriously question the idea that anyone involved in the story received any kind of happy ending, Abby and Lev were beaten, captured, enslaved, probably beaten many times more, starved, and ultimately crucified to die slowly on a beach amidst rotting corpses. Then, Ellie happens along like a fucking murder hobo, and cuts Abby down so the grudge match can continue...despite Abby already clearly being beaten at the start. Ellie then almost kills Abby before realizing that its not Abby she's angry with, but herself. All three characters end up walking away at the end, but that's not really a happy ending, its simply a necessary step required for the next game to happen. Wait until Part 3 requires Abby and Ellie to meet again and find a way to work together to resolve the story...which, of course, will require Ellie to sacrifice herself for humanity. Boy, you're really going to lose your shit when that happens.
Abby’s character is so compelling. Abby was a part of the Fireflies, and no matter what you’re opinion on them is/was, they were fighting for something with a purpose to help people. Abby’s father, Jerry, was a doctor who’s only goal was to help people by developing a vaccine. And he tried to teach Abby about helping people and being compassionate. When he died, Abby’s character slowly shifted. She became angrier and only bent on killing Joel, and becoming a wolf made her gain hate for the Seraphites in the process. Helping Yara and Lev is more than just her feeling guilty, it’s her living up to her father’s image. Remember when Abby and Owen have the small conversation and he says “Maybe we stopped looking for the light.” Looking for the light was the Fireflies motto and they recognized that they both went off the deep end and lost their true purpose of living and they’re trying everyday to get back to they were when they were kids.
Amazing writing. Sorry but this game is just great.
I think they are being too harsh on the whole "redemption" thing. The story isn't trying to solve her guilt and make her good through this one act or make you like her because of it. Its just supposed to be a step. Yeah, she was top Scar killer. But her feelings changed after what she did to Joel, it changed her. It doesn't automatically absolve her of consequences, you guys are reading too far into it. Its just supposed to show the beginning of change. You guys have to start looking at the story in a more broader lense, you're taking it too shallow minded/narrow. Its not a black and white game, its gray all the way through. None of the characters are fully good or fully bad.
Y’all missed the whole dialogue with Lev while having the same convo about Joel vs Abby
Making everything into a Debate
Bruh I got a fungus treatment ad ten min into this vid lmfao😂😭love y’all, love your streams so much. Love you and Lupa and thank you for the grinding❤️been following y’all since avatar, and day one with the until dawn streams❤️
For the people that tried to say tommy wasn’t going after her at first he was, he literally was he was just trying to convince Ellie to stay so she wouldn’t get caught up, Tommy already had plans you saw how fast it took him to leave?
Played the game not too long ago, binged this and I'm still soo invested in this playthrough
I was looking forward to watching it but Roshi being tilted the entire time makes it unenjoyable
I LOVE THESE STREAMS!!!
The entire hospital and rat king section got me weak lmmmmaaaao
Great stream, great discussion.
Abby NEVER diagnosed Yara. Lev or Yara said it needed to be reset and Yara asked Abby if she knew how. So she reset it and went about her mission.She didn't inspect the arm, Lev did. Abby was looking out the window. What does her dad being a doctor have to do with anything?
I believe that the dreams aren't supposed to signify that she's redeemed herself, but rather they are to show that she's on the path to redemption, or "Looking for the light". In Abby's mind, her father was an example of who to be in a world which has given up on itself and is living in ruin and chaos. So to see him smiling in her third dream signifies that she's now on a path that he would approve of, which I think is compassion.
Like you both said, Abby knows she's a bad person being the number one Scar killer, and has been a long time. I feel like Abby's lack of relief and guilt that she's experiencing since brutally torturing Joel and killing him was a key moment for her. It made her question who she was and what she stands for in a way which she hasn't had to since she was able to focus on the goal of getting revenge for so long. At first, I think she sees Yara and Lev as a way to ease her guilt. But as she gets to know the other side of a factional war, she's beginning to not only empathise with her perceived enemy, but also she's making steps to return the humanity that she has lost and attempting to make amends for all of the bad things that she's done.
All that said, everybody is going to have a different opinion on this game, and that's why I love it so much. I feel like I read somewhere once that Neil Druckmann even said you don't have to like Abby, but by the end of the story if you can understand then he felt like he'd done his job. Excited to listen to your thoughts when you finish!
What I don't get is them saying abbys friends keep judging her , when the only person who don't like her is Mel, and idk why they kept bringing up her being a top scar killer when joel for 20 years were killing and ambushing innocent people lol
Especially when Scars as a whole aren’t innocent. Not like she was out here killing innocent people that were minding their own business. The Scars were trying to kill them as well. They have literally been in a war with them lol. It’s kill or be killed. Not to mention the Scars beliefs are very close-minded, exclusive, and disgusting. I mean they were literally gonna force Lev, who is a child, to marry an adult man. I mean wtf.
22:00 Dogs bark sound like what the fork 😂
When that thing jumped out when she was crawling in the vent by far the worst jumpscare I had playing this game
I'm watching this vod and just wanted to say Kill Bill 3 can still happen, even with him making his 10th film. How? Tarantino is currently making some 8 episode mini series. So theoretically, he could do a Kill Bill 3 series.
You are not "supposed to" do anything. You just see both sides of a story, then you draw your own conclusion. The thing is we are used to "be the hero", so lots of people have this cognitive dissonance, they try to empathise because usually that's what you are supposed to do, and can't
Getting done with the rat king on your 2nd try is WILD on hard
The game director said this isn’t a game about revenge, it’s a game about love. He said both games are. He said if he were to make a 3rd one it’ll only be if they’re able to come up with a very compelling well told story also about love. But as we know, there’s different types of Love, and it can be showed in different ways, such as in this game love causing anger and the desire for revenge
my main issue is that chat are tryna force them into a singular perspective when they havent even finish the game, they are giving their thoughts and opinions on the game so far. They might or might not change their minds after they finish the game, or even weeks or months after they finish the game. there is a reason why the fandom is so split on this game and why Its still discussed to this day
Honestly yall should make a compilation video of your last of us 2 discussion. I know I can just go back and watch the streams, but I was more interested in yalls opinion of the game, more than the gameplay itself.
16:54 "maybe I should be dating you..." that was uncalled for Sheera...
The game asks you if you can empathize with and potentially, but not necessarily, forgive someone you hate. And it couldn't effectively ask that question if it didn't make you truly hate the person first. And it wouldn't be a question worth asking if the answer was clearly going to be yes for every person. The value of the art is in the debate itself, and in that the game has absolutely succeeded. A character making bad decisions and reacting emotionally and illogically doesn't mean they're poorly written, real people are emotional and illogical and make bad decisions. It's okay if Abby's side of the story doesn't resonate with you. The fact that it does resonate with others, and the discussion that arises from that difference of opinion is what this game is really all about. Loving the streams, and I'm very interested to hear your final takes once it's all said and done!
The Rat King part on the hardest difficulty and absolutely no ammo is rough tbh
we cannot compare pain, be it done one way or another. The thing is that knowing the situation, I don't blame Abby for what she did, they killed her father, it doesn't matter!! Now let's go to Ellie's side, Abby killed her father and I don't blame her either for going after revenge. what the game and the series want to convey is that no matter who you are, when something is taken from you, you become the worst. abby wasn't a bad person until her dad was taken from her and ellie is the same. And the game doesn't want to make you feel sorry for anyone, but to see that each story has its side, each one has a hero or villain, each one can become bad or good.
and even loving ellie and this whole journey with her. abby had something personal with joel and not with his friends. ellie killed all her friends (but.. they reacted, it's a human instinct when we're in danger, nothing justifies it).
the game is about that, the things we do along the way and how it affects us. being bad or good, right or wrong.
That's just red hot cheetos dust on her arm 😂😂
I don't understand why it didn't click for them yet, the parallel for Abby is not just Ellie, is must with Joel and their relationship with a kid, a simple kid can change a monster, just saying.
Abby killed her own people to save Lev, yet blames Joel for doing the same to save his daughter. She's a hypocrite.
@@porter9494 she gonna realize that but that is the point of the story Ellie is also a hypocrite as well
That end conversation was painful. Sheera is usually good with the empathy stuff in reaction vids, but how both these peeps have completely missed the point is disappointing. Abby wasn't trying to put a karma bandaid on her guilt, she NEVER said helping Yara/Lev would absolve her of what she had done.
The game asks you if you can leave your biases behind and truly empathise with other people, and they failed. There are clear parallels to a post-Sarah Joel and Abby and they've completely failed to see it. It's not even about 'time spent' with these characters at this point, and more proof that people can be set in their ways.
1:43:46 - 1:44:05 Bro my stomach is hurting from laughing too much, the chat lit you up😂
Its a very interesting plot point. Abby's nightmare showing the scars dead gives a view into her inner guilt and her opportunity for redemption. They surely would have died without her. Abby after Joel is a different person. She's now forced to inherit his legacy & to see his perspective in ways that will only be realized as the game goes on.
Abby + Lev = Joel + Ellie (part 1)
🧢
In the first game the fireflies was getting rolled up in the premium opp pack
Said this on another video, but yes you can say for certain that vengeance wouldn't have helped Ellie cause its not a from media thing, objectively, at best, vengance is temporary catharsis that requires you still be in pain for it to even feel good. It's not bad for moral reasons, is just not good for your health. Period.
1:00:45Roshi said NO ONE’S SAFE FROM ROSHI JUSTICE, no matter what😂😂💀 Love ya’ll❤️
As far as your take at the end.. The game literally said what you said already, through Mel, when she cussed Abby out at the aquarium. They aren't trying to force you to feel for Abby, they are showing you both sides and how things aren't just cut and dry
I respect Roshi for understanding that this game make sense. Because when this game came out, everybody is saing that it doesn't make any sense and character are stupid
Towards the end of the stream I was wondering why you kept bringing up "Abby's a top killer bro" as if that demeans her character.
Joel was quite literally a top killer for 20+ years and only wanted to help Ellie for selfish reasons until he grew to care about her.
We see Abby being a top killer only helping Lev for selfish reasons but, her actually caring about them but, yet you keep saying Abbys unjustified in that case when her and Joel are both the same.
I also don't know if you notice but, they're reusing a lot of Joel and Ellies duo animations for Abby and Lev.
Also another thing Abby was on a path for revenge, she didn't want to brutally murder Joel Infront of Ellie but, her emotions take over and she did that anyways. Revenge isn't something that helped her but, she's been so obsessed for years that she ruins the relationships she has with all of her friends and the people around her.
Ellie now is starting out on a path of revenge and we see her relationships start to dwindle the way she keeps telling Dina that she NEEDS to kill Abby and the fact that there's a bit of dialogue where someone is saying that they should go find Tommy and Ellie brushes him off and says he can do fine on his own. She's starting to ruin her relationships just like Abby did and is only going to fall further down the hole like Abby did if she keeps going.
Inform me of what your whole discussion was because towards the end there was so much back and forth goin on for different topics and I couldn't fully grasp what you were saying
Abby killed her own people to save Lev, yet blames Joel for doing the same to save his daughter. She's a hypocrite.
@@porter9494 Wrong all she knew was that he killed her father. That's literally the whole point he kills everyone in the hospital, leaves with the immune "cure" and dissapears.
Yeah Joel and Tommy saved Abby, but Lev and Yara didn't kill Abby's father. Those two situations don't equate, my guy. You're doing a whole lot of yada-yadaing and justifying of Joel's behavior in order to make him less bad than abby. And mean, I get it. We knew Joel first. We like Joel. Abby killed Joel so we're gonna be critical of her. But you're putting Joel up on a pedestal and it's skewing your analogies pretty heavily.
They acting like joel is a damn saint and that his death wasnt a consequence of his actions lmaooo 😭😭😭🫠🫠🫠
@@tuxedomask4masc roshi understands the situation, it’s shera that’s doing the mental acrobatics trying to justify Ellie when she’s doing the same thing Abby did.
I can't explain how much I hate this. It's not as simple as Joel killed Jerry so Abby killed Joel. You're refusing to take a deeper look into the context of the 2 situations. Joel killed Jerry because Jerry was trying to kill Ellie without hers consent and refused to let Joel take her away when Joel was running short on time because he was getting chased by a whole lot of soldiers. And even when Joel killed Jerry he did it quickly with knife to the throat and done.
Abby on the other hand chose to torture Joel (despite Joel swiftly killing Jerry) just right after he saved her life.
Even if Abby's original goal was to torture him (which is already worse considering Joel killed Jerry quickly) she could have at least done the bare minimum and killed him quickly after he saved her life.
People always say Joel had it coming but nobody ever says Jerry had it coming or Abby had it coming. Weird.
@@kujnjnjskalo9773 bro, who cares about context? It doesn’t matter the reason why Joel killed jerry. It doesn’t change anything. Abby wanted revenge, which is what she got, actions have consequences. Joel killed a lot of people to save Ellie, one of those people happens to be Abby’s dad, then Abby goes to hunt Joel down and get “justice” for her dad’s death and then Ellie goes and mows down a fuck ton of people to get revenge on Joel’s death. Don’t you see what’s happening? They’re all wrong and they’re all human, non of them can be truly justified in their actions, ellie, Abby, Joel, the fireflies. There is no right side because it’s not a story of black and white there’s no good guys no bad guys just people. Hope this makes more sense
@@Mike_unhinged No it doesn't make sense and it will never make sense. I love how how everybody says action have consequences only when talking about Joel. Of course the reason behind Joel killing Jerry matters. It shapes our opinion of him. Original commentator is pretty much saying that Ellie, Abby and Joel are all similar, and, well, no the fuck they ain't. You wouldn't have the same opinion on Joel if he killied Jerry to save someone else or if he killed Jerry out of enjyoment.
Saying that no one can be justified in their actions is just wrong. Joel was fully justified in saving Ellie. Fireflies didn't let Joel and Ellie speak, drugged her without consent and were going to kill her, they were also going to throw Joel out into a infected filled world without any of his equipment which is a death sentence. Joel only acted out of self defense because the fireflies were a bunch of trigger-happy dumbasses that took the worst way to approach a situation. Saying that Joel is in the wrong is like saying you're in the wrong for shooting a home intruder that was certainly going to kill you. People like to act like the game is filled with gray morality, but if you actually think about it for longer then 10 seconds you'd come to realize that 1 side is clearly in the wrong for their actions.
One thing I figured is why roshi learn how to craft fire rounds when he playing the game stealth waste of meds but im js
3:37:07 This alone puts an end to this argument about abby being in the right lol
2:01:39 Abby says "May my death be swift" instead of "May your death be swift" to Nora. Nora ends up dying a slow death on the same day. Pretty cool.
Edit: Someone literally points this out in the chat 2 minutes later. Dammit.
a lot of people don't go far enough with their thoughts on this. The point of the game is to make you have these discussions. The point of the game is to see if the player still sides with Ellie even after seeing Abby's side. That is human nature. Neil has said that his goal wasn't to make you prefer Abby or something. He was just curious what would happen if you were forced to play as Joel's killer. Would you stop playing, would you reulecalty play through it, or would you form a connection with her? That's the whole idea. Just like the first game is about discussing what Joel should have done and how Ellie feels after his lie.
This game is a lot different in the sense where they are just presenting these stories of two bad people in Ellie and Abby. It doesn't matter which one is worse. That's not the point. Most people would still side with Ellie over Abby because they've spent the most time with her. But like.. yeah... THAT'S the point. That's why i think this game is amazing. I think the writing team was asking, is there anything we can do as writers to ACTUALLY make someone love a character who killed their favorite character? that might not be possible, but the goal was to make a flawed character and see how the player responds. If they made a character that was amazing and all her friends loved her, we would have thought they were trying too hard. Abby's story is messy. like her actually life is messy. Just like Joel and Ellie. So yeah, if we played as Abby in the first game instead, of course you would side with her. That's the idea though.
This whole game is TRULY putting you in the shoes of Joel at the end of the first game. A lot of people don't agree with what Joel did. They didn't want to play as him killing doctors. A lot of people loved what he did. This game takes the idea of siding with someone you love over anyone else, and has you actually go through with it for the whole game It takes that Part 1 idea and just multiples it by 10. Even after seeing the other side, we STILL root for Ellie. (some people don't obviously). It's just an empathy test and there is literally no right answer haha.
So Roshi just completely missing that he's hypocritical? He said the person who killed his parent "has got to go bro" and he wouldn't even listen to them, while at the same time condemning Abby for killing Joel?
Abby killed her own people to save Lev, yet blames Joel for doing the same to save his daughter. She's a hypocrite.
This game does bring out tribalism and hypocrisy in people. It's very fascinating to see the mental gymnastics people do to support their side.
@@porter9494 So you're argument is "fictional character did it so what?"?
@@nyphon he's fighting for Joel like he's his new son or something 😭😭😭
I think people who argue Joels and Ellies true intentions behind their actions then condemning Abby forget the fact that we as a player have all the information whereas Abby obviously wouldn't know stuff like the fact that Ellie was defending herself with Mel and Owen. All she knew was that her friends were dead and Ellie was involved. Same with Joel in the hospital. The game really demands that you try to look at the story from different perspectives because these characters are not going to know what we know.
People act like they wouldn’t go get revenge on their family members if they parents was shot by some random guy that decided to say fuck humanity future😂 maybe I’m just more of a open minded individual
People try to justify Abby killing Joel but they brush over the fact that she didn't just kill him... She slowly tortured him to death. Revenge or not, she's a sick person for killing someone in that manner. She was irredeemable for slowly torturing him to death in front of his family despite their pleas for her to stop after he had just saved her life. The way she did it was too disgusting for her to deserve forgiveness. Everything she went through I felt was well deserved. In the end I still wanted her to die. I didn't necessarily want Ellie to kill her but I felt that she deserved death. She got what was coming to her with the Rattlers and deserved worse. Joel killed that doctor to save Ellie's life. Abby killed for revenge. Rather you like it or not Abby's father was wrong to try and kill 14 years old girl. Hell, Abby killed her own people to save Lev, yet blames Joel for doing the same to save his daughter. She's a hypocrite.
@@porter9494 lmfao so if the first
Game was Abby pov then the sequel was Ellie pov , you would have been supporting Abby decision. This is still justify you have to be open minded to realize it not just one sided
It is the same with Ellie. During Abby’s part you see all the NPC’s that were killed by Ellie. One of them was a mother vibing with her kid 😂 hell, even the dogs that Ellie killed had names
Tommy was after Abby and shouldn't have known where Mel and Owen were except Nora got killed and tortured for the info. Ellie wasn't even looking for them.
I dont think people on abby side fully listening to roshis criticism and just call it hate just cause they dont side with her😭
Why does Roshi keep saying, "Joel and Tommy saved Abby too!"?
Did it occur to him that 1. Abby didn't attack Yara and Lev because they were literal children. 2. Abby knows they're on the run from Scars and needed someone to protect them. They're not really Scars anymore because they're literally being hunted down by other Scars.
I genuinely don't understand what point he thinks he's making. Can someone explain it?
It was a useless point he was trying to make and the whole saving happened before Abby knew Joel's name, so Abby didn't knew who was saving her at that point
It was Ellie's fault that Jesse got killed b/c when they left Dina the agreement was they would go get Tommy and go back home. Then when they found out where Tommy was, Ellie renigged on the plan so she could continue her pursuit of revenge on Abby. Had she gone with Jesse they would've got Tommy, the map wouldn't have been left on the ground for Abby to find out where they were and they all would've gone back home. So yes it is Ellie's fault due to her obsession with revenge over the safety of her friends.
The thing about Abby’s arc is that it’s the other side of Ellie’s arc. She was consumed with pain and rage because of the trauma that she felt over Joel’s actions killing her father, destroying the Fireflies, and taking her hope away. She ends up getting exactly what she wanted, torture and all, and she still feels that same emptiness. She doesn’t feel any better and she is still plagued by nightmares. It isn’t until she starts to make a connection with Yara and Lev that she feels that pain start to ease. It’s that human connection that starts to heal her from her trauma. It’s a massive parallel to Joel who didn’t really start to heal until his bond with Ellie.
If you’re critiquing Abby based on her “selfishly” trying to help Yara and Lev to get over her violent past then it’s the same thing with Joel. We know Joel killed innocent people back when he was a hunter, yet we excuse all of that because we met him as a loving and caring father. It’s easier for us to excuse those actions because we only know Joel at his best. For Abby her introduction to Joel was one where he massacred her entire unit. Just like some players can’t get over Abby killing Joel, Abby couldn’t get over Joel killing her father. That’s the point. We feel exactly the same about Abby that Abby and the Fireflies felt about Joel.
That’s why the story gives Abby the redemption arc where she connects with people who need protection just like Joel connected with Ellie who needed protection. Joel’s entire decision at the end of the first game can be perceived as selfishness as he valued his relationship with Ellie over what Ellie wanted and trying to save the world. He didn’t care about any of that. Just wanted his daughter to be alive. Any kind of good character development always has to be grounded in initial characterization. Yes, Abby wants to help Yara and Lev in order to assuage her guilt because she hates herself. She doesn’t like who she turned into after 4 years of being a Wolf where she relied on violence to satiate her trauma. She ends up getting exactly what she wanted with torturing and killing Joel, yet still feels a huge void. I think that’s very important if the ultimate message, just like the first game, is that connecting with other people is what heals from trauma. Not violence. Not emotional detachment. Not vengeance.
You don’t have to actually like Abby for that story to work. Abby hates how much violence has consumed her life and feels guilty about how she killed Joel, but it’s not like she thinks Joel was a good person just like you don’t think Abby is a good person. It’s a story about perspectives and empathy. We always think highly of the people we like and the worst of the people we hate. The challenge is to make the player engaged with the story by feeling the same emotions as the characters and then seeing how you feel about them after it is all said and done. It’s not even necessarily about people not getting revenge. It’s more about expecting revenge alone to completely help to get over trauma is not going to be as fulfilling as you may think. That pain from the loss will still be there and you have to take the steps after the fact to begin to heal.
Don't watch the streams expecting them to change their opinions. It's possible, but we are about to enter late game already. I'm fine we agree to disagree.
Yeah but at least they were open to seeing the other perspective unlike some others.
I'm glad the people who like this mess are a minority and Roshi/Sheera actually use their brains.
Dont think you're reading Abby right, she has no guilt about Joel. Killing him didn't make her feel better, however you're reading the story wrong. We'll see if it clicks for you at the end.
Be interesting to see if your opinion switches at the end of the game, as you and many others to be fair , keep giving Ellie the pass even though she's pretty much a mirror of Abby. She's traveling half way across the country to kill some girl. she won't come down even though time has passed
you guys talk a lot while saying a whole bunch of nothing im sorry 😭 like ur barely scratching the surface with both of the major characters.
Sheeras got ellies journey completely backwards, while roshi cant get past the fact that abbys what? a trained soldier? In a war? Didn’t we already establish that like what, the first 30 minutes of playing as her?
can’t blame y’all for not caring but i beg of u to try to look at abby as anything else but the girl that killed joel and her silly little attempt to redeem herself for doing so. Her guilt goes sm deeper than that.
r/im12andthisisdeep
People try to justify Abby killing Joel but they brush over the fact that she didn't just kill him... She slowly tortured him to death. Revenge or not, she's a sick person for killing someone in that manner. She was irredeemable for slowly torturing him to death in front of his family despite their pleas for her to stop after he had just saved her life. The way she did it was too disgusting for her to deserve forgiveness. Everything she went through I felt was well deserved. In the end I still wanted her to die. I didn't necessarily want Ellie to kill her but I felt that she deserved death. She got what was coming to her with the Rattlers and deserved worse. Joel killed that doctor to save Ellie's life. Abby killed for revenge. Rather you like it or not Abby's father was wrong to try and kill 14 years old girl. Hell, Abby killed her own people to save Lev, yet blames Joel for doing the same to save his daughter. She's a hypocrite.
@@porter9494 dont care. Abby’s not her fuckass dad just like Ellie’s not Joel.
If we’re rly gonna hold Abby accountable for her daddys faults lets not forget about Ellie knowing full and well the type of atrocoties joel committed n the amount of ppl he crossed in the years before knowing her, and her still. Not. Giving. A. Fuck. So why should Abby?
Why is her pain worth any less than anyone elses? Bc shes a sick person for torturing her dads killer? Now let me ask u, what does that make Joel? Considering nothing that abbys done he hadn’t already that is.
I don't get why Sheera keeps saying that Joel has been put in the situation he was in, inside the hospital. He put himself in that situation. He could've left and moved on with his life, but no, he wanted to save Ellie, kill the people there (and yes, Joel was the aggressor) and bounce. Joel put himself in the rescue situation and no one else.
Also, idk why they act like Ellie and Abby are different. Yes, their paths are different, but in the end they want revenge, regardless of how it's done. Revenge is revenge and murder is murder, and that's that
Are you insane? He could have left and let his new daughter to be butchered by those terrorists? That's some psyho shit right here. Abby killed her own people to save Lev, yet blames Joel for doing the same to save his daughter. She's a hypocrite.
Ayy man everybody's getting what they deserve, they all did some messed up stuff and they're paying for it Mel and Owen included.
Roshi not using Abby's by far best weapons, the shotgun and the hunting pistol, and using that terrible assault rifle and automatic instead, is triggering me lol. Especially when you can make ammo for the other two.
3:29:07 Roshi I know what you’re trying to say, you’re trying to say Abby’s quest to rid her guilt is contrived/forced which is valid. I’m looking forward to seeing how they arrange all the events in the show to make the pacing and flow feel more organic.
3:32:25 Sheera’s analysis of Ellie is pretty spot on. Ellie’s had a lot of trauma through her life and the stuff with Joel was the straw that broke the camel’s back for her mental state so her intensifying descent into killing Abby is mental and illogical, but understandable. She’s not in a clear mental state. Ain’t no therapists in Jackson.
The chat in the stream was “fuck them kids” 😂😂
What you are missing is Abby is the reflection of Joel and Liv is the reflection of Ellie. Joel lost it and murdered innocent people after Sarah died. Ellie was his redemption. Justice and revenge are not the same thing. Revenge is a suckers game and those who seek revenge must dig two graves. The only way is to break the cycle of violence. Plus there is a whole mental health side to this. Joel, Ellie, and Abby all suffer from PTSD. Everyone is in the wrong in this game, but that’s the point. Humans are flawed emotional beings.
Abby didn’t torture Joel in front of Ellie she was doing that before she got there and when she did get there Owen told Abby to end it and she did
Imma need some of these people to listen to Pain’s(from Naruto) speech on this revenge shit.
Sheera is coping so much to give Ellie reason lmao
did they nerf the rat king boss?
Abby is lucky we weren't playing as Ellie at the theater because she would've gotten clapped
Imagine doing a permadeath and it ends like 40:52???
Saying Owen/Abby saved Ellie's life is like pretending to push your friend into traffic and then say "saved your life". They weren't in any danger until the person themselves put them into it lol
3:27:03 - moments like that is why I think that writers did an excellent job with the second game. People own biases are stopping them from seeing the blatant parallels between characters actions and motivations. Abby actions and motivation mirrored Joels. The core motivation for saving Ellie was pure selfishness on Joel's part, that's true:
1) He didn't save her because Fireflies didn't give her option or let them say goodbyes. He would do the same thing if Ellie agreed to sacrifice herself.
2) He didn't save her because Fireflies cure won't work and her death would be in vain.
3) He didn't save her just to save her life and selflessly leave her with "good people" of Jackson away from the burden of his choice.
4) He didn't save her to redeem himself.
Joel wanted to get his daughter back. He wanted to be Ellie's father figure. He wanted a second chance in life, for himself. That's the only reason he LIED. He wanted to everything go back to how it was. He wanted to be by her side. And he didn't give a shit about potential cost for people around him. At the end of the first game they hinted that he succeeded at saving Ellie life, but he failed miserably at saving their relationship. They are doomed.
It doesn't make them (Abby or Joel) bad people, it makes them human with a conscience and selfish desires. It has nothing to do with redemption. Ultimately it's a story about finding way out of the cycle. Not necessary objectively good one or selfless one.
p.s. it's truly Eren (Joel) and Gabi (Abby) allover again. Whatever excuse or compassion you throw around for one character you ultimately give to another.
I feel like people need to understand that y'all not being able to feel sympathy for a main character doesn't mean y'all think the story is bad, nor should it. I completely understand you guys not rocking with this aspect of Abby's story arc (even if the reasoning is a little shabby) but still liking the story in general. Even to y'all's point about being fine if Ellie were to kill Abby but being upset at the opposite, it wouldn't make the story any better or worse depending on who takes out who, as long as the tone and themes are maintained. If I were rooting for either character, I wouldn't knock the story for having one of them killed by the other, because, to one of Roshi's points, that's reality (tragic; people do bad things, and taking a moral high ground while grieving is tough and rare).
With what Druckman wanted to do with the story, it was going to be impossible to make everyone happy anyway, because, at its core, its enjoyability mainly depends on the audience's sympathy level. It's just not going to be for everyone, but, at the same time, I think everyone can appreciate the discussion that it brings about, similar to the ending of the first game. It once again goes back to it being heavily based in reality, having the characters behave like actual humans and make human choices, whether they be immortal or righteous, violent or peaceful, selfish or giving, etc. None of the audience has to forgive Abby or forget all the 'bad' she's done in order for the arc to hit, because the point of the arc isn't to redeem Abby in our eyes rather than it's to redeem her in her own eyes. It's a half way selfish motivation (other half: non selfish IMO), but it's still realistic since, like Roshi said, people do that irl and you either sympathize with it or (like Roshi) you don't.
In conclusion, all these different aspects of human choices, psyche and traumatization being present in this story and its characters is what makes the plot so great IMO. Otherwise, it, nor the first game's story, wouldn't be so heavily discussed. I can't say for certain what I'd do in any of these characters' shoes, but I can envision all the alternative choices just as easily as how we saw the choices that were actually made.
you're just saying this out of bias. abby POINT OF VIEW was she killed the guy who took her 1- Dad and plus 2- humanity vaccine. JOEL: did not care to give the reason for it. he just asked for the murder of him. AGAIN : ABBY DOES NOT KNOW JOEL LIKE U PPL. she doesnt know ellie is also her father figure she doesnt know joel was put in a bad situation. Saying abby is selfish because She wanted justice is wrong. Ellie is going to a dark road by wanting revenge .( the Point of the game is to make Abby go from grief to helping out kids) Joel was just like abby joel also killed many people and got revenge and went on a killing path till he met ellie. saying abby is selfish is dumb to me
your a abby stan so ofc your mad
@@cozy.elfenomenooooo is what i would say to joel stans. i never played the game tlou you can support joel and hate whom ever killed him but to say its not justified for abby to kill him is dumb. if someone killed you dad you'd absolutely want revenge her killing him is justice
They said they're both justified in what they did(Abby and Joel)
Roshi some of your takes man, my god bro 🤦🏿♂️. But we all of our opinions lol
I loved the game. I didn't find abby's story as engaging in the first play through either. I think its a momentum issue. You get to the climax of the story with Ellie and then go back to 0% with Abby. The 2nd time I played I was more able to separate into 2 completely separate journeys and I enjoyed her section more.
Id be damned if imma choose a baby over a dog
You think Elle and Dina is that good?! Lol! It obviously Tommy. 😅😅🤣
Was that really it for the rat king? That was so fast lol
for real it took me a few tries and i was in normal difficulty lol (but also i had almost no ammo or anything)