Excellent talk, Dave. Perhaps I've mentioned "pianos that don't hold their tuning" one too many times in my reviews. It's a problem that can be solved in studio recordings, if one has a tuner on call. Sadly, that's not always the case.
Great topic, Dave! I studied for a while with the lead tenor of the SF Symphony Orchestra Choir. He mentioned that Joan Sutherland's "poor" pronunciation was often intentional, as she was always trying to emphasize open vowels as much as possible, to the detriment of consonant sounds at times.
I had a teacher that claimed he could ear people out of tune for a few cents. Like " oh, that note was 5 cents sharper" The most incredible thing many people believed him
@isqueirus The perfect-pitchers always intimidated me, especially during my choral-singing days. One the other hand, they got me to pay attention to and put effort into staying in tune, or as close as I could get.
Let me add a sixth affectation: insulting the reader/listener if they don't live up to their standards. "In no other recording of Joe Bloggs's 77. symphony have I heard the surprising enharmonic transition from F sharp minor to E flat major played with such clarity by the trombones: if you don't get the deeper meaning of this transition, you miss the whole point of the work." No, I probably miss many fine points of many classical works, but I am still allowed to listen to them and enjoy them.
@petermarksteiner7754 I hate that myself. On the other hand, I'm probably guilty of it. For example, an enharmonic modulation from f# minor to E-flat major isn't possible. 😁
This is one of my favorite of your talks. I learned a lot. A question occurred to me concerning intonation. Do you believe that Ivan Moravec was too much taken by intonation or was his concern justified because it was a a central feature of what made his art his own? Thanks.
He was very concerned with beauty of sound, but not to the point of insanity. He told me that there was simply no excuse for not keeping the instrument in top condition.
My issue with Sutherland's diction was not that she didn't understand what she was singing about, but that *I* didn't understand what she was singing about. That said, she was a beautiful singer.
My experience in the theater, where her sound enveloped and cossetted you, is that diction was the furthest thing from my mind, even in French opera. I admit that in some recordings it can be a minor issue. I heard her in Le Roi de Lahore. Huguette Tourangeau had excellent diction. But her raspy singing wasn't beautiful and therefore not as communicative as Sutherland's.
I used to complain about Sutherland’s diction, but then I heard opera in English - sung by native speakers - and I couldn’t understand a word. From any of them.
I am one of those people that are put off by accents that are way off: Lisa della Casa's singing in Mahler 4 spoils it for me. But you are absolutely right: that is 100% _my_ problem, and I would never assume that other people feel or _should_ feel the same. Thank you, Dave, these are all enlightening videos. Cristian
Where do you hear way off German in Della Casa’s Mahler 4? It sounds fine to me, very standard. She was born and raised in Bern and studied in Zurich, plus her mother was German. She was a German speaker. And it’s not like she’s singing in Schwyzerdütsch, although that might suit the rusticity of Des Knaben Wonderhorn!
@@Bartholomew-t7k You've made me change my mind! Not because of the valuable info about Della Casa, which I had no clue about, but because you moved me to go back and give it another listen. And I can't find anything wrong with it. For a moment I thought I perhaps confused it with Judith Raskin's 4th with Szell, gave that another listen, and while her accent definitely sounds a bit rough in places, I think the singing's great - and that's all that matters. So, perhaps, after all these years, I've come to listen for the performances as a whole and not be bothered by details anymore. Again, thank you!
Dave, thanks for a super-illuminating and fascinating presentation. Utterly absorbing. Regarding operatic singing; I can't even understand it (save for the occasional word) when it's sung in English, regardless of the accent! Therefore, regarding opera as a whole, I don't care about plot, storyline, acting etc. To me it's purely solely an audio experience and if I like the sound of it, that's what matters to me. After all, opera is one of the most quaintly bizaare musical genres!
Wow, what a terrific, thought-provoking video. I'm recovering from surgery, catching up on your videos, and this is the perfect antidote to all my pain. (I hope my enjoyment of the video is not merely drug induced!). Absolutely loved this, Dave. Wesley
Hello Mr. Hurwitz.....it would seem rather interesting to me that you have a discussion, namely, what to do to be the ideal music lover...? ...should we appear to be a connoisseur in the eyes of others...? or simply appreciate...? how many people who listen to classical music, who have a tight-knit neck, can drop sentences like....: Bach, he is the type of all musical forms'' or if the work is complicated, he says with an amused air, "" what a science of polyphonic writing....! or he calls Beethoven "the old man" or if a work seems "atonal" to them he says "it's the chromaticism of "TRISTAN" or instead of saying "movement" he says "tempo", or "rhythm" he says "pulsation", or instead of saying "air" he says "melodic line" or instead of saying "beginning" he says "exposition" etc etc etc....and if we really love music....should we be like them....?
Hi Dave. Great topic and this shows why critics are important. About the last affectation, how important is blind listening where you don’t know who the performers are when you listen to new recordings and do you do it?
Regarding national 'idioms', I think such concerns ARE valid, to the extent that British musician might play an Elgar symphony a couple of times a year, whereas most American musicians will be lucky to play an Elgar symphony a couple of times in their lifetime. Living with a score for a long time does affect one's performance.
Hi Dave, Any recommendations for a great Russian Gershwin recording? I've definitely been guilty of musical chauvinism when it comes to American music, so your comment about the Russians piqued my interest!
Never had any great desire to meet my musical icons. I prefer instead to maintain a respectful distance.. Their art exists and is a product of what the ancient Greeks called the “Temenos” , a sacred space adjacent the temple.
I used to hate "Gramophone" magazine's reviews for their arrogance. I learned from the magazine that certain recordings had been issued, but learned quite quickly to disregard much of the criticism. I also grew to hate their recourse to certain phrases: that an earlier recording was "beginning to show its age", or that a particular rendering of a work had "set the standard by which other performances must be judged". Incidentally, the first of these was applied to a recording which had been issued, to great acclaim, ONE YEAR EARLIER.
@@daigreatcoat44 I liked the old Gramophone. I learned a lot from it - not about performances or recordings, but about composers and works, especially British ones.
@@johannesortmann2789 Unfortunately, the same can be said for a number of formerly great ensembles. As Dave often has noted, the world's orchestras are becoming increasingly homogenized into a similarity of sound, blurring the differences that used to make them interestingly unique.
The Dresdners might be good, but the way they sounded on Jochum's EMI Bruckner cycle was awful. Very buzzy and lacking body, they sounded like a chorus of kazoos.
One of your best videos. I've found that certain singer types (I would say sopranos with very big voices, but someone would undoubtedly jump down my throat) tend to have "less clear" diction. But in most cases they're going for line and beauty of tone over spitting out every word (and in most opera, who cares what the words are). And as you said, when they want to spit out the words, they can. I've done a couple recitals with a soprano with a very big voice, and when I point out places where I can't understand her, she fixes them. There's a story about Richard Strauss listening to a rehearsal of Salome, and Maria Jeritza was rewriting the vocal line to suit her, and people sitting near Strauss were saying, Oh, Herr Dr Strauss, isn't that horrible vat she ist doing? And Strauss just waved his hand and said, She knows vat's she's doing. Composers usually don't care about a performer changing things if it's an intelligent performer (I guess I sequed from diction snobs to score snobs there; I won't tell my Desmond Shaw-Taylor story to segue to the Brit critics snobs.)
For me, intonation and diction only matters if it's very very good or very very bad. Otherwise, it's contributes basically net zero to the quality of a performance, because it really does not matter much once you get to a professional level.
These would make great Earl Stanley Garner alliterative Perry Mason crime titles. The Case of the Intonation Imbecile, etc. One of my bugaboos is critics who would knock Birgit Nilsson for singing sharp. For me when she did it, likely deliberately IMO, it added to the thrills.
I have another one for you, Dave: Period Psychos. I'm referring to the people who think anything that's not on instruments of the period or in the "style" of the period in which it was written is somehow wrong. (Looking at you, Roger Norrington!)
Speaking of diction, my native language is Cantonese and I wish there would be Western operas translated to and sung in Cantonese. I wish one day I don't need to rely on the caption when listening to operas.
I think it would be very difficult to sing Western opera in Cantonese. It is extremely hard to sing legato in Cantonese.
2 місяці тому
I stopped listening to a couple of performances of "Das Lied von der Erde" because laughing at the diction was too distracting. As you say, that's a me problem - and not much of one, since there are so many great alternatives.
YES! One of the most irritating and senseless reviews I've ever read - concerning a rather spritely and delectable performance of Mozart's Piano Sonata in A minor, K. 310 - started with something like: "The piano chosen by the pianist was just out of tune at middle C and that, for me, negates the entire performance." Just that one piano key was slightly out of tune... and that's ALL this highly regarded (British) reviewer could think of saying to begin his critical review! Good LORD, save us from the "Slightly Out of Tune" lunatics!
@@ThreadBomb YES... but if you're going to trash an entire Piano Sonata performance because ONE of the the blessed piano keys/notes is "out of tune," by LESS than a quarter-tone, you have just joined the ranks of the "Home Audio Geeks" who are FAR more concerned with the GEAR sitting in front of them - "Oh, those are just marvelous speaker cables!" - than the miraculous music emanating from the speakers... however "badly" (in their opinion) recorded! Sit back, close your eyes, leave your nationalistic bias at the door and ENJOY the music for what it really is... and if think the tenor doesn't pronounce "Tu es un idiot musical!" correctly, he's probably right!
The problem of perfect pitchers is that hearing only slightly imperfect intonation causes them almost physical pain. I struggled with that too when I was young (and made several enemies by devaluating various kinds of music they liked), but I learned how to control my reactions and maybe with age also the perfection of my pitch is slightly fading away.
Does perfect intonation mean every note being played or sung at the exact frequency it would be in equal temperament and 440 Hz? Because wouldn't sound good at all. Intonation should naturally vary depending on the context. For instance, leading tones should be a bit sharp. A 6th the descends to a 5th in minor should be a bit flat.
Regarding the "Nationalist Ninnies" - if that were a real thing (and I agree with Mr. Hurwitz's opinion), wouldn't it ultimately be the composer's fault for not notating the music properly so that it can be played "correctly" by anyone?
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Entertaining chat. Should one also be on guard for "Alliteration Addicts?" ;)
Excellent talk, Dave. Perhaps I've mentioned "pianos that don't hold their tuning" one too many times in my reviews. It's a problem that can be solved in studio recordings, if one has a tuner on call. Sadly, that's not always the case.
Great topic, Dave! I studied for a while with the lead tenor of the SF Symphony Orchestra Choir. He mentioned that Joan Sutherland's "poor" pronunciation was often intentional, as she was always trying to emphasize open vowels as much as possible, to the detriment of consonant sounds at times.
Brilliant witty insightful refreshing analysis.
OMG, I have learned so much about music and musicians from you, just by listening. Nothing to do but open my mind and listen! Holy moly
Wonderful!
I had a teacher that claimed he could ear people out of tune for a few cents. Like " oh, that note was 5 cents sharper" The most incredible thing many people believed him
Something I've observed over the years is that a bit of confidently spoken BS can be persuasive to a gullible audience.
@@leestamm3187 A little bit! The world is LOADED with it!
@isqueirus The perfect-pitchers always intimidated me, especially during my choral-singing days. One the other hand, they got me to pay attention to and put effort into staying in tune, or as close as I could get.
Let me add a sixth affectation: insulting the reader/listener if they don't live up to their standards. "In no other recording of Joe Bloggs's 77. symphony have I heard the surprising enharmonic transition from F sharp minor to E flat major played with such clarity by the trombones: if you don't get the deeper meaning of this transition, you miss the whole point of the work." No, I probably miss many fine points of many classical works, but I am still allowed to listen to them and enjoy them.
@petermarksteiner7754 I hate that myself. On the other hand, I'm probably guilty of it. For example, an enharmonic modulation from f# minor to E-flat major isn't possible. 😁
This is one of my favorite of your talks. I learned a lot. A question occurred to me concerning intonation. Do you believe that Ivan Moravec was too much taken by intonation or was his concern justified because it was a a central feature of what made his art his own? Thanks.
He was very concerned with beauty of sound, but not to the point of insanity. He told me that there was simply no excuse for not keeping the instrument in top condition.
My issue with Sutherland's diction was not that she didn't understand what she was singing about, but that *I* didn't understand what she was singing about. That said, she was a beautiful singer.
My experience in the theater, where her sound enveloped and cossetted you, is that diction was the furthest thing from my mind, even in French opera. I admit that in some recordings it can be a minor issue.
I heard her in Le Roi de Lahore. Huguette Tourangeau had excellent diction. But her raspy singing wasn't beautiful and therefore not as communicative as Sutherland's.
@@bbailey7818 I don't have an issue with her diction in any language other than Emglish, which is a language I understand.
I used to complain about Sutherland’s diction, but then I heard opera in English - sung by native speakers - and I couldn’t understand a word. From any of them.
@@matthewbbenton I agree. Many native speakers have lousy diction when they sing in their own language. That's why I treasure the ones who don't.
@@bbailey7818 This contrast is very audible in their recording of Maria Stuarda,
I am one of those people that are put off by accents that are way off: Lisa della Casa's singing in Mahler 4 spoils it for me. But you are absolutely right: that is 100% _my_ problem, and I would never assume that other people feel or _should_ feel the same. Thank you, Dave, these are all enlightening videos. Cristian
Where do you hear way off German in Della Casa’s Mahler 4? It sounds fine to me, very standard. She was born and raised in Bern and studied in Zurich, plus her mother was German. She was a German speaker. And it’s not like she’s singing in Schwyzerdütsch, although that might suit the rusticity of Des Knaben Wonderhorn!
@@Bartholomew-t7k You've made me change my mind! Not because of the valuable info about Della Casa, which I had no clue about, but because you moved me to go back and give it another listen. And I can't find anything wrong with it. For a moment I thought I perhaps confused it with Judith Raskin's 4th with Szell, gave that another listen, and while her accent definitely sounds a bit rough in places, I think the singing's great - and that's all that matters. So, perhaps, after all these years, I've come to listen for the performances as a whole and not be bothered by details anymore. Again, thank you!
Dave, thanks for a super-illuminating and fascinating presentation. Utterly absorbing. Regarding operatic singing; I can't even understand it (save for the occasional word) when it's sung in English, regardless of the accent! Therefore, regarding opera as a whole, I don't care about plot, storyline, acting etc. To me it's purely solely an audio experience and if I like the sound of it, that's what matters to me. After all, opera is one of the most quaintly bizaare musical genres!
I've heard many recordings of works sung in English, both choirs and soloists, where I couldn't make out the words.
Wow, what a terrific, thought-provoking video. I'm recovering from surgery, catching up on your videos, and this is the perfect antidote to all my pain. (I hope my enjoyment of the video is not merely drug induced!). Absolutely loved this, Dave. Wesley
Feel good!
I have heard that people with perfect pitch can't enjoy Indian Classical music, because that is so dependent on microtonal melodies.
Hello Mr. Hurwitz.....it would seem rather interesting to me that you have a discussion, namely, what to do to be the ideal music lover...? ...should we appear to be a connoisseur in the eyes of others...? or simply appreciate...? how many people who listen to classical music, who have a tight-knit neck, can drop sentences like....: Bach, he is the type of all musical forms'' or if the work is complicated, he says with an amused air, "" what a science of polyphonic writing....! or he calls Beethoven "the old man" or if a work seems "atonal" to them he says "it's the chromaticism of "TRISTAN" or instead of saying "movement" he says "tempo", or "rhythm" he says "pulsation", or instead of saying "air" he says "melodic line" or instead of saying "beginning" he says "exposition" etc etc etc....and if we really love music....should we be like them....?
I think the answer is pretty obvious.
Hi Dave. Great topic and this shows why critics are important. About the last affectation, how important is blind listening where you don’t know who the performers are when you listen to new recordings and do you do it?
Blind listening only helps if you're inclined to prejudge the performance based on the identity of the artists. I don't.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Yes! As you’ve demonstrated time and time again in this channel. Thanks for the reply. I’ll try to be as objective as you. 👊
Regarding national 'idioms', I think such concerns ARE valid, to the extent that British musician might play an Elgar symphony a couple of times a year, whereas most American musicians will be lucky to play an Elgar symphony a couple of times in their lifetime. Living with a score for a long time does affect one's performance.
Both for good or ill. It can also lead to boredom and laziness. There's plenty of evidence for both.
Hi Dave,
Any recommendations for a great Russian Gershwin recording? I've definitely been guilty of musical chauvinism when it comes to American music, so your comment about the Russians piqued my interest!
Melodiya is such a mess that I'm not sure what's available anymore.
Never had any great desire to meet my musical icons. I prefer instead to maintain a respectful distance.. Their art exists and is a product of what the ancient Greeks called the “Temenos” , a sacred space adjacent the temple.
I used to hate "Gramophone" magazine's reviews for their arrogance. I learned from the magazine that certain recordings had been issued, but learned quite quickly to disregard much of the criticism. I also grew to hate their recourse to certain phrases: that an earlier recording was "beginning to show its age", or that a particular rendering of a work had "set the standard by which other performances must be judged". Incidentally, the first of these was applied to a recording which had been issued, to great acclaim, ONE YEAR EARLIER.
@@daigreatcoat44 I liked the old Gramophone. I learned a lot from it - not about performances or recordings, but about composers and works, especially British ones.
5:09. Dresden is my absolute favorite Bruckner orchestra...period.
They're great for Richard Strauss, too, particularly with Kempe at the helm.
@@leestamm3187 OH! Very much the yes!!!
It was my favorite orchestra. But the recent SKD isn‘t that good any more.
@@johannesortmann2789 Unfortunately, the same can be said for a number of formerly great ensembles. As Dave often has noted, the world's orchestras are becoming increasingly homogenized into a similarity of sound, blurring the differences that used to make them interestingly unique.
The Dresdners might be good, but the way they sounded on Jochum's EMI Bruckner cycle was awful. Very buzzy and lacking body, they sounded like a chorus of kazoos.
One of your best videos. I've found that certain singer types (I would say sopranos with very big voices, but someone would undoubtedly jump down my throat) tend to have "less clear" diction. But in most cases they're going for line and beauty of tone over spitting out every word (and in most opera, who cares what the words are). And as you said, when they want to spit out the words, they can. I've done a couple recitals with a soprano with a very big voice, and when I point out places where I can't understand her, she fixes them. There's a story about Richard Strauss listening to a rehearsal of Salome, and Maria Jeritza was rewriting the vocal line to suit her, and people sitting near Strauss were saying, Oh, Herr Dr Strauss, isn't that horrible vat she ist doing? And Strauss just waved his hand and said, She knows vat's she's doing. Composers usually don't care about a performer changing things if it's an intelligent performer (I guess I sequed from diction snobs to score snobs there; I won't tell my Desmond Shaw-Taylor story to segue to the Brit critics snobs.)
For me, intonation and diction only matters if it's very very good or very very bad. Otherwise, it's contributes basically net zero to the quality of a performance, because it really does not matter much once you get to a professional level.
I agree with Mr.Hurwitz, that 'Enigma variations' conducted by Monteux is much better than the most British interpretations.
But then...Jochum is even better!!!
Boult and Barbirolli might have something to say about that!
These would make great Earl Stanley Garner alliterative Perry Mason crime titles. The Case of the Intonation Imbecile, etc.
One of my bugaboos is critics who would knock Birgit Nilsson for singing sharp. For me when she did it, likely deliberately IMO, it added to the thrills.
Well Dave, your accent would be much better if you had been raised in Boston.
I have another one for you, Dave: Period Psychos. I'm referring to the people who think anything that's not on instruments of the period or in the "style" of the period in which it was written is somehow wrong. (Looking at you, Roger Norrington!)
Speaking of diction, my native language is Cantonese and I wish there would be Western operas translated to and sung in Cantonese. I wish one day I don't need to rely on the caption when listening to operas.
I think it would be very difficult to sing Western opera in Cantonese. It is extremely hard to sing legato in Cantonese.
I stopped listening to a couple of performances of "Das Lied von der Erde" because laughing at the diction was too distracting. As you say, that's a me problem - and not much of one, since there are so many great alternatives.
YES! One of the most irritating and senseless reviews I've ever read - concerning a rather spritely and delectable performance of Mozart's Piano Sonata in A minor, K. 310 - started with something like: "The piano chosen by the pianist was just out of tune at middle C and that, for me, negates the entire performance." Just that one piano key was slightly out of tune... and that's ALL this highly regarded (British) reviewer could think of saying to begin his critical review! Good LORD, save us from the "Slightly Out of Tune" lunatics!
But shouldn't a piano be in tune?
@@ThreadBomb YES... but if you're going to trash an entire Piano Sonata performance because ONE of the the blessed piano keys/notes is "out of tune," by LESS than a quarter-tone, you have just joined the ranks of the "Home Audio Geeks" who are FAR more concerned with the GEAR sitting in front of them - "Oh, those are just marvelous speaker cables!" - than the miraculous music emanating from the speakers... however "badly" (in their opinion) recorded! Sit back, close your eyes, leave your nationalistic bias at the door and ENJOY the music for what it really is... and if think the tenor doesn't pronounce "Tu es un idiot musical!" correctly, he's probably right!
The problem of perfect pitchers is that hearing only slightly imperfect intonation causes them almost physical pain. I struggled with that too when I was young (and made several enemies by devaluating various kinds of music they liked), but I learned how to control my reactions and maybe with age also the perfection of my pitch is slightly fading away.
I had a friend with perfect pitch (we used to tune the choir to him), and he had no problem with minor discrepancies.
Does perfect intonation mean every note being played or sung at the exact frequency it would be in equal temperament and 440 Hz? Because wouldn't sound good at all. Intonation should naturally vary depending on the context. For instance, leading tones should be a bit sharp. A 6th the descends to a 5th in minor should be a bit flat.
Valuable video. These sorts of lazy tendencies are infecting criticism of all sorts these days.
Regarding the "Nationalist Ninnies" - if that were a real thing (and I agree with Mr. Hurwitz's opinion), wouldn't it ultimately be the composer's fault for not notating the music properly so that it can be played "correctly" by anyone?
No, it wouldn't, because that's just what composers theoretically do.