I will say two things. A) I don't want to get into the confrontational stuff, i'll just say the modern "toughness" style resins are *nearly*, key phrase there, nearly as tough as actual plastic sculpts. Nowhere near as brittle and breakable as base line detail resins and B)for me, personally at least, in the battletech sphere i use the printed models exclusively for mechs that don't yet have a cgl plastic. I firmly believe that if you love the game you really do need to support the company making it, because y'know, they MAKE the game. If we want battletech to survive as an official product and receive continual development we kind of have to support the company with the license who is developing and manufacturing all of this. Which includes the books, official terrain mats, all the various high quality paper goods, all stuff the stuff that can't realistically be done at home. So yeah, that turned into a bit more of an essay than i'd intended, but TL;DR Does it have a plastic mold or is a product other than a model? I buy exclusively official Does it not yet have an official plastic? Ok now i print
I agree with 90% of your sentiment, but CGL is not a company I feel like supporting. Hypocritical Politics aside, I bought Shadowrun 5e and tried to play it. Never buying anything they print ever again. It's not worth my money.
Agree. I have a few 3D printed models of some mechs that I got before the CGL sculpts came out. Now, I'm more leaning to the official model sculpts since I want to continue supporting the company and the game: in other words, voting with my wallet.
Now, I won't deny that cast plastic will always have a durability advantage, but watching the last episode, I was thinking about what you folks said about resin printed models just breaking into bits when they fall, and that definitely was my experience at fist, but now recently moving to a flexible resin, from the brittle cheap stuff I started with, the difference is night and day, so please continue with the discourse, but now that this 2nd video showed up I has to comment
I love comments! Thank you!!! I have seen some good resins (sageprint) but from what I have seen - when you get into those, the cost gets pretty high. I think what I am challenging is the “bro my 3D print is insane detail and indestructible” crowd - I don’t buy it. 🙂 But I am willing to have my mind changed!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming also I have no idea why someone thinks that your comment on online sellers is an attack on someone's personal resin printer experience
@elijahelizalde4308 haha listen, if my experience doesn’t match theirs, I am obviously wrong and an evil villain. 😁 All good, hearing everyone’s perspective is always interesting - as fiery as they may be. Discussion is healthy… And I will be the first to say I don’t know everything 🙂
I agree that a Hero Forge style of interface with an ability for you to model your own posed Mech and having that printed and shipped by Catalyst may solve a lot of issues with wanting a specific model, but for those who are in far flung areas where Catalyst isn't available, I think making it from your own stl is perfectly acceptable.
I think eventually Catalyst and other games companies could license STLs to different reputable 3D Printers around the world, allowing you to purchase locally printed minis. This is already happening with smaller games companies that rely 100% on 3D printed models. An example of this is the game Full Spectrum Dominance by The Lazy Forger. I can get his models printed by a local licensed print shop and keep shipping down.
I have a load of his stl's and the models are fantastic. As a producer you can pay for a quarterly licence if you think it is worth your time. Personally I don't think there is enough profit in 3d printing to print for sale. Unless you use cheap materials and print at high layer heights.
3d printing is a fantastic option when the IP holders and product producers fade into obscurity - It'll keep franchises alive, so long as someone gives a damn enough about it.
Another great perspective - there was definitely a point where 3D prints were floating BT at a time between the weird AS plastics and wave 1. Also applies to a lot of great 80s games that don’t have the same engagement right now.
I'd love to see CGL release single packs of their plastic 'Mechs. Something similar to their premium models would be nice. It'd be nice to see some hard plastic models too, un-assembled on sprues. Also, make sure if you're gonna smash a resin print, try smashing a CGL mini too. I want to see how durable their plastic formula is. It feels like it's bulletproof.
The best part I use my printer for is making omni variants. It supports CGL and it also allows me to make a visual representation of the variant I want. Legal for tourney play and satisfies both parties. The bonus is that it doesnt look like garbage. You will have to look very close to see a difference.
I like the current CGL models, such an immense improvement in detail over the old metal models. I've bought most of the force packs and supported both Kickstarters because it's important to support the game and my local game store. That being said if I need multiple models of the same unit I don't want to have to buy an additional 3, 4 or 5 mechs I don't currently need or even want. I've also bought a couple of random salvage boxes and only got stuff that will likely never or at best rarely be used. So becoming a 3d hobby printer is the best answer to this issue currently for me.
I'm old enough to have a nearly complete set of Ral Partha LEAD Battletech miniatures. Lead is easy to deform, but most of my collection is around 35 years old. I got an Elegoo Mars 9k Ultra at the beginning of the year and I am perfectly happy making resin prints to replace my old stuff, which I now feel that maybe I shouldn't even be touching given what we know about lead exposure nowadays. I can make an absolute pile of minis for what a bottle of resin costs vs. the retail on manufactured figures, and I'm happier with being able to get exactly what I want. If something breaks, I can just make another. 3D printing is a big win, especially when I can put an in-scale Leopard on my table to go with the fruits of my resin investment.
To be clear, I have ZERO interest in what Catalyst is offering. It's not losing a sale from me because I wasn't going to buy its version of mechs anyway. I'm playing the game I bought in 1992. I buy new books every once in a while and I really do like the refinement of Alpha Strike, but at the core, most of my investment in this game happened when its owner was FASA.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming I just don't see the argument over whether 3D prints are acceptable. We used to play with the flat maps in the Battletech and Citytech boxes with little cardboard chits to represent all the things that never even got a mini. Nowadays, I can grab 3D assets out of HBS Battletech or MechWarrior and make as many Burro water trucks as I want. This is nothing but a good thing.
As much as I 3D print, I still find myself collecting the Ral Partha miniatures since sourcing those STLs in that style is difficult. I've even gone to the trouble of 3D modeling a Jenner, yet nothing beats holding an authentic white metal print from the mid/late 80's.
Re: the Battlemaster. My position is 3D printing is cool for the single mech so long as it is not a one-to-one copy. If someone is printing out a fan made model I think it is cool; if someone scanned the CGL model then that smacks too much of theft. That said I do have proxies related to a certain game company that fall into the 'theft' camp. My self-justification is that I would never have bought the official stuff in the first place as I just want to paint a figure or two. Emphasis on 'self-justification' :)
I appreciate the no foreknowledge Q&A about 3D printing. I think your initial impressions would have been valad a few years back, but today's resin printers are affordable, easily usable, and the right resin will give you the detail and durability you want, very affordable. Excellent show, gentlemen!
The whole thing seems like a red herring to me. When we play it's always been cardboard cutouts like the ones that came in the original battletech games. Sometimes it's literally just a piece of cardboard with the name of the mech and an arrow for facing on it. When people are able to bring minis to a game, that's just "gravy", it's a cool thing to have but it's not part of what makes Battletech Battletech or Mechwarrior Mechwarrior. We mostly play campaign setting and there is so much more to the game than minis that players just "go with whatever" and are happy with what they have. I realize ther are games like Warhammer 40K where minis have played a large role from the beginning, and the game/activities/play is basically built around them, but Battletech isn't one of these games.
Yup - and to your point, there are a lot of source books that really advocate “playing with whatever you have” - great comment and thanks for watching!!
Honestly I like alot of the MWO sculpts more than the base ones. Centurion especially. But the game is miniatures agonistic. Cardboard cutouts? Sticky notes? Go ahead! So why not a 3D print? Hell I got an archer with it's missle doors opened and giving the bird with both hands! I've got some catalyst minis but I just like other ones more. If you want the link, I'll happily share. They're free and look great. At least with the fairly budget printer Wanna support Catalyst? Get books! Get the Kickstarter, the starter boxes (I got all of them recently and I'm quite happy). Get playing BattleTech, play MechWarrior. I don't see why it's controversial at all. Then again I'm coming from 40K mostly
Another thing that blows my mind even more about that Blood Asp, is they REALLY paid attention to subtle detail. If you look at the "urban mech" back trash can the BA has going on, it's the EXACT same thing on the rear of the Kingfisher, the mech it was designed to replace. I think that's super neat that even the design language has references back to the original in a subtle way. I had painted a Kingfisher just this past week and recognized that little piece immediately
I'm huge into 3D printing, and modern resin printers can absolutely give you mini's of the same/better quality as CGL plastics, and do so basically out of the box. The prints aren't as tough as CGL, but they can be surprisingly close and are easily durable enough to survive regular wear and abuse from gameplay or being dropped from shoulder height. Software is super easy to use and even has really good auto-support features now to make the process stupid easy. That said, the single biggest drawback to resin printing is the mess/space. You NEED a dedicated area that can handle small resin/IPA spills, and is well ventilated to deal with fumes. You also need to dispose of dirty IPA afterwords, which can be a little bit of a process. For Mechs, I own all of CGL's mini's and mostly print weapon/limbs to convert them into other variants. CGL's design language is damn near perfect, and I want to support them to keep making more.
Great comment - I would love a set of 3DP weapons and gear to do my customizations!! Feel free to email me - I haven’t had luck finding anything online!
Great video as always gentlemen. Nice to see some new faces on the channel. My thoughts on 3d Printing remain the same, I have yet to see a 3d printed model that matches the quality of the CGL minis in terms of the final output, and I don't have the time or money/space to put in a 3d printer in my basement. For my money, 3d printing is not the way to go so long as we have these gorgeous CGL sculpts available/in the pipeline. The House Master has spoken!
Putting aside the hammer joke, it is trivially easy to print resin minis that survive falls from tables or normal mishandling. Can a life-size butter Thom survive the same? And what's Thom's wife doing with all those corn cobs?
Aaron is on the warpath today! I'm my book, resin printing is brilliant in details even today, but common plastic models still are more durable. If resin gets as flexible and durable as injection plastic, then the game is on!
The only issue I take umbrage with when citing for 3D prints funnily enough is the one that Tom cited for what he liked. What got me to want to try 3D printing my own stuff using a resin printer was Sage Print Labs. I had purchased some of their terrain (specifically the single mech repair bay) and found out that it was FDM printed. I won't lie, for anything to do with models, I do not like FDM printed models because they are just low quality looking. Even though you could use filler to remove the stepped appearance, you will lose detail in the print. I found that the stls used for any model are available and that resin printers create them with immaculate detail, so that's why I do it for myself.
Good perspectives here - I personally don’t mind fdm terrain, but will concede that it depends on what it is and how much detail you really need and the amount of “flat surfaces” (a hill vs a radar dish)
The comments on rampant boomerism are hilarious because stereolithography has been around since the 1980s. Regardless I get the gist of the concern: quality is key. The quality has advanced significantly in recent years but convenience has not advanced as quickly specifically on SLA or even DLP.
I would like to see full on 4 - 5+ inch toys with interchangeable parts either painted for particular units or unpainted. Used for larger battlefield or infantry/ battle armor scale engagement. Also just collectable like Joy Toy does for 40k Infinity and army builder.
Resin prints are brittle and whilst there are some resins that cure fairly pliable, they will never be as strong as injection moulded plastic. That said, if you're handling, storing and transporting your minis properly (always pick them up by the base, don't be a 'claw-guy' - especially with other people's minis!) then it shouldn't really matter what they're made of :D
I agree with the hero forge model. cgl maintains control of the prints but lets you custom build your omnis and standard battlemech variants. people would pay 20 bucks easy for that and then wouldn't buy an entire box full of stuff they already have and add waste to the environment. I hope topps comes around to that idea at least. as for official events and catalyst owned socials, I agree with them. they are a license holder and having their company tank because topps revokes their license for not defending the ip is just not something they will risk, hell, I wouldn't! people playing 3d prints and whatnot at unofficial events and at home/FLG stores is totally cool with me, I cant know the financial circumstances of the people I play with and frankly some battlemech models just aren't available to play officially except through IWM. I have IWM models and that is a whole ass hobby in itself, I cant in good conscious demand people restrict themselves to IWM and just "get GUD" on assembling them when a 3d print is available. my two cents.
Love everything you said - and agree the “get gud” mentality on the internet in general is derpy. IWM stinks. I recently decided to be a masochist and buy the IWM mastodon. Better than the old ones, but like, I don’t want to be pinning and gluing like a neanderthal. It’s 2024!
it seems like I have to give my sister a call for that challange. If I get her to use the giant 2million € 3d printer at university to print a titanium atlas the gift card will be mine.
I see 3D printing in much the same light as house rules and things like Override. CGL leaves a gap? The fans will find ways to fill it. As was said in the discussion, 3D printing is no different from any other kind of proxy. The line comes when you monetize it contrary to the wishes of the license holder. Even there, I'd suggest that charging at cost for printed models wouldn't violate any IP rights. There is meaningful demand for alternatives to CCP models. CGL should have long since begun to look for an alternative solution to CCP-affiliated production. IMO the ideal would be to partner with IWM to get them set up with plastic model manufacturing in Cincinnati. You'd think that back-to-back multi-million-dollar Kickstarter campaigns for Battletech models would have given them the financial wherewithal to fund such a project. The Blood Asp was a fun 'Mech when it appeared in MechCommander 2. As with most BT PC games, there's usually some kind of "best" option, and in MC2 it was the Blood Asp. CGL's new sculpt looks like it'll be the best version of the design which we've yet seen and I'm definitely looking forward to getting my copy.
I’m $700 deep into printing so far, with the printer, cleaner/curer, laptop, etc. I’m interested in some indie games (like Crow Industry’s Starship Troopers) that are ALL print-at-home. I only recently started printing things for BT, but in a very, VERY limited capacity. I’m printing my own hex bases, that come with hazard stripes already molded into the front arc, for easier painting, and they also have spots underneath to mount magnets for transport. Model wise, I’ve printed a Centurion mech, but that is simply because the centurion is a personal favorite, and I prefer the MWO model over CGL’s. I’d 100% buy an official Centurion model IF it had more of the MWO design. I’ve also printed a custom variant of the Cataphtact, again for personal, MWO nostalgia. I’d LOVE to see CGL, do a print-on-demand, or even expand the “Premium” line, as I do buy each of those direct from them. I don’t buy prints 3d party from Etsy, but when I do need multiples of specific mechs, I’ve bought them off eBay. It’s easy to find official, single CGL models in the $5-$10 from sellers that HAVE bought the box sets for a single mech then sell off the rest…
Oh, and I’m not super concerned about fragility, as there tends to be a lack of hammers sitting around our gaming table. 😉 I’m used to resin material from other manufacturers, as well as multi part plastics…. None of which can stand up to the same abuse of a solid chunk of plastic that is a battletech figure.
I think do what u want. But how many nechs you need at the end? In 1 battle in classic max 6-8 and you need 2 days. Of course if you want many different armys. Trinary of falcon with 4 Loki 3 Thor 2 Turkina 3 Cougar 3 Uller, and so on with wolf or IS. Than yes make it 3D print. CGL should make variant packs Mad Cat A-E or for time clan invasion. For most player one or two mech is enough for playing.
For example: Up coming WoB pack with 6 Celestial mech, how awesome would it be with parts for all variant! I wouldnt mind if it cost double like normal 6mechs pack.
3D printing is fine, to an extent... If people never support the official release, we won't get anymore releases. I have 3D prints, but phase them out when official releases come out. Some people say 3D printing is cheaper or that they don't have money for official stuff, but these people had the money to buy a printer, and resin, and conceivably the files (unless they pirated those). So that argument doesn't make sense to me. I buy official stuff because I like it and want more of it. I buy books, both novels and sourcebooks, because I want these releases to be successful and more of them to be made. I can't help but roll my eyes when I play against people who only have 3D prints. Like sure you are a part of the hobby, but what are you doing for the franchise by not paying to support the franchise. I'm not trying to be elitist, because trust me I have a lot of prints, but they are mostly of units that don't have newer minis or minis at all. Like I think I said on the last video, prints are fine, especially to decide if you enjoy the game, but at some point you need, in my opinion, to use official products to really help the franchise grow and prosper.
Regardless of how the mech is produced I would suspect anything resin be it 3d printed or traditionally molded is not gonna take a hammer too well :) The CGL stuff probably won't like it much either though I would guess it would squish not break. A more realistic test would be to drop the print. Table-height, floor-height, carpet, tile, etc. I do understand the 'joy' of the hammer though :)
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming 😂 Understandable! I did just think of one sort of nice thing about 3D resin. Obviously trying to find some that isn't overly brittle/has some flex is important for mini's repairs are generally pretty easy as it takes super glue like a champ. I am not sure what type of plastic CGL uses but I assume it is related to PVC(?). Obviously this stuff is not easy to break/damage but also not as easy to repair. If the plastic is the same stuff as plastic model kits/GW plastics well repair is very easy with model cement. Regardless really been enjoying your channel the last couple of months ago. I first encountered BT with the 2nd ed. box set and 3025 Tech Readout, man, must have been 10-ish years old. Recently picked up Alpha Strike and Armored Combat box sets to get back into it. Those sets plus 3D printing have gotten me a lot of mechs in a short amount of time. Now I need to get painting.... :)
3D print durability challenge? Guess he hasn't seen the video of a guy driving over his 3d printed miniatures with a car. Not sure if the minis would survive something like a hammer, but there are some insane additives for resin available now that can withstand high drops and even the entire shipping process with ease.
I love it! Listen, I am open to having my mind changed - but more than surviving the hammer, I want to see quality and durability together. I have not seen it to date from any prints.
Will yall be at chupacabra con? Also challenge accepted, as long as you are ok with fantasy minis and not mechs or vehicles (we currently do not sell anything sci fi although are working with our sculptors to change this) I’ll even include a traditional resin sculpt/cast, a white metal spincast, and, a set of our resin printed stuff so you can compare side by side. We use elgato Saturn 3s, our full bank of 7 takes up about the same space as my home computer desk fyi.. I’ll send an email later Happy to publicly state my company as well if requested by dfa directly :)
Hammers are cruel roflh especially on awesome minis. Haven’t met a mini yet that’ll take a hammer. We do an 8 foot floor drop to test our designs Also I don’t think anyone is arguing the strength as much, it’s the overall quality, a blend of strength and detail. I also love the catalyst minis, but… know they can be sooo much better. And the honest issue here is availability, and non pros making stuff. If catalyst would licence things out we would see a huge uptick in not only available designs but also an increase in quality
I’m a boomer and very experienced 3d printer. 12k printer at $850 that takes up 60% of the basement? That comment goes to show just how out of touch with the printing landscape.l you guys are. The truth is a 12k printer cost $299 and is the same size as a the older 1 and 2k. 12k printers cost the same as what I spent on a 1k printer when they first came out. You can absolutely find 12k printers at ridiculous prices and some of those have features that are over the top for use with dentist offices for the use of making dentures and crowns. The standard gamer doesn’t need that level. An Elegoo 12k Saturn 3 for $299 on Amazon will print mechs of better quality IMO than you get with retail mechs. If you’re printing your models scales will always be exactly where you want them as you can control the size of the print.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming lol. Put “YOUR” money where you mouth is and make your own prints for the content. Buy an Elegoo Saturn 3 use “ABS like” resin for the durability and climb into the 21st century. If you’d actually do the journey of printing a mech, you’d have the experience to formulate a proper opinion on 3d printing. Printers are very affordable at $299 and you’ll be able to print anything you’d like. Not just mechs. Water washable ABS like resin cost $20. To be fair… I actually think you are not going to give printing a proper chance. Why? Based on your strong opinions based on a serious lack of knowledge about it… you just aren’t the type of person that falls into the mindset of printing. That’s fine. There is nothing wrong with that. There is a good amount of people that don’t want to print for one reason or another. The problem I have is that with my mindset you can print or you can buy retail. The choice is yours. With the mindset of the anti-printer, there is no choice. It’s a buy retail only world and you can’t print your own. If I’m printing my own and not selling them to the public it shouldn’t matter to anyone what I do. With my take on it both sides are happy. With the anti-printer stance you dictate to others what to do regardless of what their reasoning is. The problem I see is a flaw in the business model for Battletech. There are lots of missed opportunities. Official STL files could be offered for those who print. Commercial Licenses could be done for wanting to print and sell. Those licenses are an actual thing and why you see stuff popping up on Etsy. For retail they can offer mechs as singles so you can buy a mech you want and not in a bundle. If I was to buy a bundle and didn’t have a need for those extra mechs, I’d offer them on eBay in an effort to get my money back. Address the lack of availability across the globe. None of the Barnes & Noble stores in my local area have Battletech mechs for sale. It’s only only and even then I can’t get all Battletech products. Everything is Order Online. Why not partner with Hero Forge and have a mech builder. You could start with the basic mech and then build the version you want by selecting build options. If you can do it for D&D like Hero Forge already does, mechs could be done as well. With Hero Forge, you can download an STL or get a physical product sent to you. Again, a modern miniature business direction and not one stuck in 1977 where it all started.
@billcedarheath387 I agree with the last half 10000% and this is the crux of it all. CGL does have moments where they do seem to be “stuck” in an 80s mentality. I think we did a jump point on this as well. As for me, my money is already invested in bringing you this free content. You are a 3D print enthusiast and I called your baby ugly. I’d be mad if I were in your shoes. But I have honestly yet to see (even from “high end” machines anything close to plastics. Maybe its the STL. Maybe its the printer. Maybe its the resin. But ultimately I don’t have to care about any of that when I can walk in a store and buy a consistent product. It’s not to say “all 3D prints suck” - but I think unless you are REALLY good at it, they will be sub-par. A few people have strongly disagreed, so change my mind. Allegedly prints cost 25 cents. Send me a model and I’ll send you the 25 cents and the 5 bucks for flat rate shipping.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming If you don’t care about it let it go. 3d printing isn’t your jam. I get it. It isn’t for everyone, but to take a strong stance against something that you have no experience with doing doesn’t make sense. It’s not like I’m telling you that the retail product is sub par and that you must print them. My stance is you do you. Be fair about it. If you want retail go for it. If people want to print and they find it acceptable or better than retail then let them. How we enjoy our hobby is our business and we don’t have to prove anything to anyone else or should we tell them how to hobby.
I’m not taking a strong stance against 3D printing. I think it’s great and has terrific use cases (we spent 80% of the episode supporting this!!). I just do not believe resin prints are “better/more detailed” or “more durable” than the plastics. I haven’t seen it. Prove me wrong.
You didn't cover ascetics. So I love the Centurion from MWO I hate the Catalyst and Ironwind versions. I don't sell my prints and i support Catalyst to the tune of 750$ plus on Kickstarter and hundreds on books. The other huge thing Is vehicles and terrain. Can't get vehicles even after the Mercenaries ships we will be short dozens of vehicles.
Yah, definitely on board with you regarding vehicles and unavailable models in general. Aesthetics is a fair point - I really like the MWO banshee and think the CGL one is silly looking, so I get that.
The challenge or contest requires sending you printed mechs and that could be considered “distributing” and that wouldn’t be cool. Hobby 3d printing is for private personal use only and a license would be required to distribute or sell.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Funny as you can go to jail for intent to distribute based on a quantity of product you possess. And that’s for never even being caught doing so. That’s a debate for legal scholars though. 🤣 In still not sending you a mech as I feel you wouldn’t appreciate it for what it is even if it was the best you ever held. 🤣
@billcedarheath387 much like 3D prints that are better than plastics, I have yet to see anyone go to jail for “intent to distribute toy robots” But I have been wrong before!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Look into the direction of GW 40k for how crazy that world can get. I’d like to think Battletech can remain outside that of that craziness. Maybe that why we should talk less about 3d printing and just go with the proxies being approved per the rules… “Proxy Miniatures: While having the exact miniature matching the make and model of the players’ units is ideal, it may not always be a practical option for those whose resources are limited . Players should therefore feel free to use substitute miniatures to represent their units as “proxies” for any missing units-so long as the substitute miniatures are at least of a size and general shape that appropriately reflects the unit in question . Because likeness can be a subjective thing, however, using proxy figures should only be employed if all other players agree.” Here’s a thought for you to consider. Would you turn down a good game of Battletech because your opponent was using 3d printing mechs or would you say “game on!” If it gets people playing then celebrate the ability for playing regardless of printed or not.
A 'Mech Forge for Battletech? With customization based on the milieu you want the mech to play in? Yeah, that'd be awesome. Imagine how much they could make charging the $10 a pop for the STL or the 3D printed model they could ship to the player. Also, on your challenge, watch out for the @$$hole who decides to use carbon fiber filament with a dual head printer (so they can use PVA support material)... Make sure your hammer is big enough on that one, and wear an ANSI rated, OSHA approved, dust mask.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming titanium... Well, there are some incredible industrial sintered metal printing processes with powdered metal (and strong lasers) that could print that, along with tungsten carbide... But yeah, those are... Specialized, and not something easily put in the garage (unless you worked with the power company to get a new transformer).
Resin printing will be on its way out soon. Too cantankerous to use and with SLS printing coming down in price (see also Micron Desktop SLS 3D Printer), I'd say Resin printers have about 1.5 years left before they are tossed in the garbage in favor of SLS. Pretty soon, this discussion will be moot once there is no delicate resin (sintering is rock hard), no weird chemicals, and the powder it uses stays in the machine. I'd say Catalyst and other miniatures companies need to get a grip on the prices they are charging. Or that might be their game - make as much money as you can right not because eventually the technology will push away manufacturing as it has been. The days are numbered.
The renders of the new BT line always looks awesome. Too bad they chose to make it in PVC (aka cheap boardgame plastic) making the clean lines a lot lower quality in the end product. That's btw, another reason why printing can be vastly superior. Yes, I have to clean some voxel lines on my prints, but it's super easy to do compared to properly getting rid of mold lines on PVC (of which there a a LOT the way the chinese lay out their molds). Sadly, the premium models are not that much of a marked improvement. I've just been painting a lot of prints lately and I'm currently doing my Alpha Strike box and my God... The official models are way more of a hassle to paint up.
Oh man the premium models are turds!! I just got two stormcrows and they’re literally backwards (weapons on the wrong arms). Like da f*** does that happen!! I will say I have seen improvements from day 1 of AGOAC and where theyre at today with the plastics - but will 100% concede there is still cleanup to be done!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming yeah, there's definitely been improvements in the later models. My NW highlanders command lance was much easier to clean up compared to my AGoAC box (and some of the older sculpts found in the Alpha Strike box... Might have been leftover stock).
Idk… most people we have spoken to tend to seem to supplement their collection with prints. I think it is a smaller % overall that ONLY print. Hard to know for sure.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming with the latest issues they had with the Kickstarter...they allienated a large section of their fan base, as well as some of their other "practices" - there are a handful of FB and reddit groups that number around 5k players that are not too pleased and have stated they will not use CGL material until changes are made . But who knows
23:21 maybe you Americans should invest in forming Unions or not voting against your own interests , and maybe an 80 dollar box wouldnt be out of reach ............ And ive got news for yous anyway if you dont have disposable income tabletop wargaming isnt for you , sorry but its ALWAYS been that way .
If you are printing "free" .stls you get what you pay for. I have gotten very good quality out of the .stl models I have bought and printed. There are some of my 3D models that are every bit as good as the authentic ones in fact the Battlemaster I have printed, I feel looks better than the original model. The other thing is there are 3D files that allow you to printer EVERY variant of some mechs! They are also multipose so your force looks much more dynamic. Last thing, I like to play this game as a "historical" game. I printed 31 Stingers and 15 Cicadas to do the Battle of Kittery. That was really cool and totally impractical to purchase them.
I don't know that 3d printing and sketchy Etsy sellers are quite the same thing. I think the real way 3d printing penetrates the tabletop gaming market is every gaming group having a guy who 3d prints. While stls don't make much sense now for a lot of companies, things can change very rapidly as new technology gets normalized. Tabletop miniature games usually have a lifecycle, no matter what they do, and many companies may find they can still generate revenue with digital files even if they can't afford big manufacturing runs. Because for games like Battletech the stls will be out there either way, and the free, unofficial ones are only going to get better.
Thanks for the shout out guys. When models become available easily and cheaply from the manufacturer, the printer route has less value to the average gamer. They can be a lot of hassle and time consuming between file sourcing/creation and material cost, time, and cleaning. To the average gamer, a high end 3D printer has limited utility. Hobbyists on the other hand are more likely to gain benefit from such a machine because they can really achieve results to further their hobby goals. This does not mean it is cost effective in any way for them to pursue printing, but it does allow for their creativity to be maximised.
Haven't finished the video yet but my opinion is the biggest hurdle with resin 3d printing is not the machine, the resin, environment, etc. it is the waste. I love my printer(sub-$200 unit), it took me very little time to get going, I would say that my mechs I have printed are very, very close to as good as those in the Alpha Strike/Game of Armored Combat boxes but the waste resin and alcohol/cleaning solution is a hassle. Cured resin is pretty benign but the uncured stuff is not.
I’ve painted some decent 3d printed stuff, and I’ve been unable to paint some total trash it wasn’t worth my time cleaning from Etsy/ebay (and obviously it wasn’t worth the time of the people that sold them). Most of the good ones have been vehicles, and all the bad ones have been mechs. I think the fact that there aren’t model files people can swipe for free from MWO/MW5 for vehicles probably plays into that more than a bit. People who are out to make as quick and easy a buck as they can are going to gravitate to what they can most easily get.
I'm completely in favor of Catalyst selling FTL files. Sure people can sell what they make but their doing that already. At this point CGL isn't getting any money for those at all. As for a sandable auto primer for print lines-I use Upol Expert double coverage. I'm still waiting for official minis of the Ferret VTOL, Partisan LRM variant, and in scale standard infantry. Since 1987. 😐
LOL this made me crack up. What is the deal with infantry! Hopefully we see more vehicles as we move past this KS. Thanks for watching and commenting!!
There are hundreds of Battle Mechs out there that have no physical models and only exist in Books, Manuals etc etc. 3D Printing allows you to play the mechs and all their variants that would otherwise never see a play table.
18:45 me as an Australian "shipping issues and availability is an excuse US people roll out for 3D printing 😂😅😂😅😂😅😂" ............ Get real its YEARS before some product gets released here IF at ALL 😂
Iron Wind Metals have done 3 different sculpts for the Blood Asp (not including varients). Taking the legs from one, the torso from another and the weapons from the other, you could possibly make an OK looking mech.
Really you have to understand the the whole discussion is moot. Newer printers coming out are on the verge of making themselves as easy as appliances, They are instituting quality of life fixes for these devices all the time. Also the cost (even the upfront) is negligible compared to some of the costs of owning some wargames.
As always, Brilliant content. Thanks to you all, Aaron & Thom, and guest. Trolls will Troll, you guys keep the great attitudes and especially having fun...
I would like to say first that I like your show. This was not a great episode. It took most of the episode explaining 3D printing. The tone is sarcastic and patronizing. Ares Games and Minis sells 3D printed stuff, and you advertise for them (Hypocracy, its ok to sell 3D prints on a website, but not etsy). CGL can make the rules on their forums if they want to. It's their forum. Everyone else will go to another forum for 3D printing battletech. CGL forums censorship is not even a issue, except to rile your audience up. And this challenge that you made... what the heck? You fake pay us 100 dollars to humiliate us to 12 thousand subscribers? Just stop picking on your own fanbase. Just stop. JUST STOP... People out on youtube are not here for your amusement. You are only going to make fun of their sculpts when you smash them. There is even small worry that you will cherry pick my comment to make fun of me to the entire community. Look, I just don't get what you are selling. It's not for me. Give me render blenders. Give me chats about cool products and weapons/gear of the battletech universe. Give me anything that is not vitriol.
They spend half the episode saying "Yes 3D printing is something here to stay, no one can change that and it should be even further endorsed" and your takeaway was them going "Noooo 3d print bad >:(" Most resin prints are dogshit quality you can get online, dude. I have many resin prints from a friend and some off of Etsy, and all of them break when you so much as look at them funny. I've yet to have a Catalyst sculpt break from a drop yet over 3-4 years. There are MWO prints I absolutely love over Catalyst designs (can't stand the CGL Centurion or Griffin), and there are some mechs that have neither an IWM nor CGL sculpt that needs to be 3D printed. However, if I have the choice, I almost always go for the CGL sculpts because they're SIGNIFICANTLY more durable and just better looking on average. The average 3D print available will never live up to the average CGL model. I'm very much interested in this contest because I'd be happy to know what 3D print sellers would be worth a damn.
I will not make fun of this comment. The criticism and commentary are all meant in good fun; we have 3d prints, some of us 3d print (some of us aspire to) we support companies that 3d print. I think I and Aaron both pointed out how exemplary Sage Prints aerospace units are. And you can see our love of Terrainify’s products all over the place. And I think, judging from the rest of the comments on the video, people understand where we are coming from and can accept criticism with humor. Hope this reframes it more positively for you.
I will say two things.
A) I don't want to get into the confrontational stuff, i'll just say the modern "toughness" style resins are *nearly*, key phrase there, nearly as tough as actual plastic sculpts. Nowhere near as brittle and breakable as base line detail resins
and
B)for me, personally at least, in the battletech sphere i use the printed models exclusively for mechs that don't yet have a cgl plastic. I firmly believe that if you love the game you really do need to support the company making it, because y'know, they MAKE the game. If we want battletech to survive as an official product and receive continual development we kind of have to support the company with the license who is developing and manufacturing all of this. Which includes the books, official terrain mats, all the various high quality paper goods, all stuff the stuff that can't realistically be done at home. So yeah, that turned into a bit more of an essay than i'd intended, but
TL;DR
Does it have a plastic mold or is a product other than a model? I buy exclusively official
Does it not yet have an official plastic? Ok now i print
Love this decision tree - that is basically my process as well!
I agree with 90% of your sentiment, but CGL is not a company I feel like supporting.
Hypocritical Politics aside, I bought Shadowrun 5e and tried to play it.
Never buying anything they print ever again. It's not worth my money.
@anorouch aw man. I was thinking about looking at that… no good?
Agree. I have a few 3D printed models of some mechs that I got before the CGL sculpts came out. Now, I'm more leaning to the official model sculpts since I want to continue supporting the company and the game: in other words, voting with my wallet.
I agree completely.
Now, I won't deny that cast plastic will always have a durability advantage, but watching the last episode, I was thinking about what you folks said about resin printed models just breaking into bits when they fall, and that definitely was my experience at fist, but now recently moving to a flexible resin, from the brittle cheap stuff I started with, the difference is night and day, so please continue with the discourse, but now that this 2nd video showed up I has to comment
I love comments! Thank you!!! I have seen some good resins (sageprint) but from what I have seen - when you get into those, the cost gets pretty high.
I think what I am challenging is the “bro my 3D print is insane detail and indestructible” crowd - I don’t buy it. 🙂 But I am willing to have my mind changed!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming also I have no idea why someone thinks that your comment on online sellers is an attack on someone's personal resin printer experience
@elijahelizalde4308 haha listen, if my experience doesn’t match theirs, I am obviously wrong and an evil villain. 😁 All good, hearing everyone’s perspective is always interesting - as fiery as they may be. Discussion is healthy…
And I will be the first to say I don’t know everything 🙂
I agree that a Hero Forge style of interface with an ability for you to model your own posed Mech and having that printed and shipped by Catalyst may solve a lot of issues with wanting a specific model, but for those who are in far flung areas where Catalyst isn't available, I think making it from your own stl is perfectly acceptable.
I think eventually Catalyst and other games companies could license STLs to different reputable 3D Printers around the world, allowing you to purchase locally printed minis. This is already happening with smaller games companies that rely 100% on 3D printed models. An example of this is the game Full Spectrum Dominance by The Lazy Forger. I can get his models printed by a local licensed print shop and keep shipping down.
Yah that would be very cool!!
I have a load of his stl's and the models are fantastic. As a producer you can pay for a quarterly licence if you think it is worth your time.
Personally I don't think there is enough profit in 3d printing to print for sale. Unless you use cheap materials and print at high layer heights.
3d printing is a fantastic option when the IP holders and product producers fade into obscurity - It'll keep franchises alive, so long as someone gives a damn enough about it.
Another great perspective - there was definitely a point where 3D prints were floating BT at a time between the weird AS plastics and wave 1. Also applies to a lot of great 80s games that don’t have the same engagement right now.
I'd love to see CGL release single packs of their plastic 'Mechs. Something similar to their premium models would be nice. It'd be nice to see some hard plastic models too, un-assembled on sprues.
Also, make sure if you're gonna smash a resin print, try smashing a CGL mini too. I want to see how durable their plastic formula is. It feels like it's bulletproof.
Oh you know I will. I have like 30 urbanmechs waiting for demolition 😂
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming you're a monster
Hahaha a boomer monster!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Why don't you go yell at a cloud and let Thom take the mechs to a farm in the country?
@@DeathfromAboveWargamingI feel they may be more durable due to how small the model/limbs. I’d like to see a warhammer or Timberwolf be hammered
The best part I use my printer for is making omni variants. It supports CGL and it also allows me to make a visual representation of the variant I want. Legal for tourney play and satisfies both parties. The bonus is that it doesnt look like garbage. You will have to look very close to see a difference.
Love this. I would love to be able to print off custom weapons and joints etc.
I like the current CGL models, such an immense improvement in detail over the old metal models. I've bought most of the force packs and supported both Kickstarters because it's important to support the game and my local game store. That being said if I need multiple models of the same unit I don't want to have to buy an additional 3, 4 or 5 mechs I don't currently need or even want. I've also bought a couple of random salvage boxes and only got stuff that will likely never or at best rarely be used. So becoming a 3d hobby printer is the best answer to this issue currently for me.
I got so many dupes, I was pretty sure “salvage box” was synonymous with “executioner box” haha
I also like being able to print different mech variants, just printed a couple of Catapult K2s for and upcoming game with my son.
@kirkbusta6 i want more Bt weapon bits packs!
I'm old enough to have a nearly complete set of Ral Partha LEAD Battletech miniatures. Lead is easy to deform, but most of my collection is around 35 years old. I got an Elegoo Mars 9k Ultra at the beginning of the year and I am perfectly happy making resin prints to replace my old stuff, which I now feel that maybe I shouldn't even be touching given what we know about lead exposure nowadays. I can make an absolute pile of minis for what a bottle of resin costs vs. the retail on manufactured figures, and I'm happier with being able to get exactly what I want. If something breaks, I can just make another. 3D printing is a big win, especially when I can put an in-scale Leopard on my table to go with the fruits of my resin investment.
To be clear, I have ZERO interest in what Catalyst is offering. It's not losing a sale from me because I wasn't going to buy its version of mechs anyway. I'm playing the game I bought in 1992. I buy new books every once in a while and I really do like the refinement of Alpha Strike, but at the core, most of my investment in this game happened when its owner was FASA.
FASA! They were the good old days for table top and RPGs… walk into the game store and see a wall of blister packs and books. I miss it!!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming I just don't see the argument over whether 3D prints are acceptable. We used to play with the flat maps in the Battletech and Citytech boxes with little cardboard chits to represent all the things that never even got a mini. Nowadays, I can grab 3D assets out of HBS Battletech or MechWarrior and make as many Burro water trucks as I want. This is nothing but a good thing.
As much as I 3D print, I still find myself collecting the Ral Partha miniatures since sourcing those STLs in that style is difficult. I've even gone to the trouble of 3D modeling a Jenner, yet nothing beats holding an authentic white metal print from the mid/late 80's.
Man 💔 I have a box of old Ral Partha fantasy minis (and ‘mechs!) that I cannot and will not part with. The best stuff.
Re: the Battlemaster. My position is 3D printing is cool for the single mech so long as it is not a one-to-one copy. If someone is printing out a fan made model I think it is cool; if someone scanned the CGL model then that smacks too much of theft. That said I do have proxies related to a certain game company that fall into the 'theft' camp. My self-justification is that I would never have bought the official stuff in the first place as I just want to paint a figure or two. Emphasis on 'self-justification' :)
Yes totally agree! No judgement zone here 😂
Sometimes the best reason to print is the Pirahna version of the mech is just plain better looking.
I appreciate the no foreknowledge Q&A about 3D printing. I think your initial impressions would have been valad a few years back, but today's resin printers are affordable, easily usable, and the right resin will give you the detail and durability you want, very affordable. Excellent show, gentlemen!
Thanks for watching! Idk about the easily usable part… Dan keeps breaking his 😂😂😂
The whole thing seems like a red herring to me. When we play it's always been cardboard cutouts like the ones that came in the original battletech games. Sometimes it's literally just a piece of cardboard with the name of the mech and an arrow for facing on it. When people are able to bring minis to a game, that's just "gravy", it's a cool thing to have but it's not part of what makes Battletech Battletech or Mechwarrior Mechwarrior. We mostly play campaign setting and there is so much more to the game than minis that players just "go with whatever" and are happy with what they have. I realize ther are games like Warhammer 40K where minis have played a large role from the beginning, and the game/activities/play is basically built around them, but Battletech isn't one of these games.
Yup - and to your point, there are a lot of source books that really advocate “playing with whatever you have” - great comment and thanks for watching!!
You guys are the best. Keep being cool. And get Dan on board, too.
He refuses to cut his beard for the show. Until then…..
The Blood Asp is a Star Adder 'mech. It will look good in black.
Honestly I like alot of the MWO sculpts more than the base ones. Centurion especially. But the game is miniatures agonistic. Cardboard cutouts? Sticky notes? Go ahead! So why not a 3D print? Hell I got an archer with it's missle doors opened and giving the bird with both hands! I've got some catalyst minis but I just like other ones more. If you want the link, I'll happily share. They're free and look great. At least with the fairly budget printer
Wanna support Catalyst? Get books! Get the Kickstarter, the starter boxes (I got all of them recently and I'm quite happy). Get playing BattleTech, play MechWarrior.
I don't see why it's controversial at all. Then again I'm coming from 40K mostly
Love the Blood Asp, I'm getting two from the Kickstarter. So looking forward to painting one for my Wolves 🐺 and one for my Sea Foxes 🌊🦊.
Only two? Those are rookie numbers. You have to pump those numbers up.
One does not simply add Blood Asps to their force.
Another thing that blows my mind even more about that Blood Asp, is they REALLY paid attention to subtle detail. If you look at the "urban mech" back trash can the BA has going on, it's the EXACT same thing on the rear of the Kingfisher, the mech it was designed to replace. I think that's super neat that even the design language has references back to the original in a subtle way. I had painted a Kingfisher just this past week and recognized that little piece immediately
Oh that’s a cool design cue - didn’t even notice!!
Fantastic eye! Love that detail.
I'm huge into 3D printing, and modern resin printers can absolutely give you mini's of the same/better quality as CGL plastics, and do so basically out of the box. The prints aren't as tough as CGL, but they can be surprisingly close and are easily durable enough to survive regular wear and abuse from gameplay or being dropped from shoulder height. Software is super easy to use and even has really good auto-support features now to make the process stupid easy.
That said, the single biggest drawback to resin printing is the mess/space. You NEED a dedicated area that can handle small resin/IPA spills, and is well ventilated to deal with fumes. You also need to dispose of dirty IPA afterwords, which can be a little bit of a process.
For Mechs, I own all of CGL's mini's and mostly print weapon/limbs to convert them into other variants. CGL's design language is damn near perfect, and I want to support them to keep making more.
Great comment - I would love a set of 3DP weapons and gear to do my customizations!! Feel free to email me - I haven’t had luck finding anything online!
32:10 my reaction to the Blood Asp "homeworlds clans not interested"
That is something I have been considering because I need a couple mad dogs and don't want to spend 20 per box just for 1 mech.
100%!
Great video as always gentlemen. Nice to see some new faces on the channel. My thoughts on 3d Printing remain the same, I have yet to see a 3d printed model that matches the quality of the CGL minis in terms of the final output, and I don't have the time or money/space to put in a 3d printer in my basement. For my money, 3d printing is not the way to go so long as we have these gorgeous CGL sculpts available/in the pipeline. The House Master has spoken!
Putting aside the hammer joke, it is trivially easy to print resin minis that survive falls from tables or normal mishandling. Can a life-size butter Thom survive the same? And what's Thom's wife doing with all those corn cobs?
LOL!
Aaron is on the warpath today! I'm my book, resin printing is brilliant in details even today, but common plastic models still are more durable. If resin gets as flexible and durable as injection plastic, then the game is on!
On
The
Warpath!!!
Haha
The only issue I take umbrage with when citing for 3D prints funnily enough is the one that Tom cited for what he liked. What got me to want to try 3D printing my own stuff using a resin printer was Sage Print Labs. I had purchased some of their terrain (specifically the single mech repair bay) and found out that it was FDM printed.
I won't lie, for anything to do with models, I do not like FDM printed models because they are just low quality looking. Even though you could use filler to remove the stepped appearance, you will lose detail in the print. I found that the stls used for any model are available and that resin printers create them with immaculate detail, so that's why I do it for myself.
Good perspectives here - I personally don’t mind fdm terrain, but will concede that it depends on what it is and how much detail you really need and the amount of “flat surfaces” (a hill vs a radar dish)
The comments on rampant boomerism are hilarious because stereolithography has been around since the 1980s.
Regardless I get the gist of the concern: quality is key. The quality has advanced significantly in recent years but convenience has not advanced as quickly specifically on SLA or even DLP.
I embrace my alleged boomerism haha… and good point on quality & convenience!
I would like to see full on 4 - 5+ inch toys with interchangeable parts either painted for particular units or unpainted. Used for larger battlefield or infantry/ battle armor scale engagement. Also just collectable like Joy Toy does for 40k Infinity and army builder.
“Just shut up and take my money” as they say. 🙂
Resin prints are brittle and whilst there are some resins that cure fairly pliable, they will never be as strong as injection moulded plastic. That said, if you're handling, storing and transporting your minis properly (always pick them up by the base, don't be a 'claw-guy' - especially with other people's minis!) then it shouldn't really matter what they're made of :D
Haha I am definitely a claw guy. Guilty as charged 😄
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming 😄
I agree with the hero forge model. cgl maintains control of the prints but lets you custom build your omnis and standard battlemech variants. people would pay 20 bucks easy for that and then wouldn't buy an entire box full of stuff they already have and add waste to the environment. I hope topps comes around to that idea at least. as for official events and catalyst owned socials, I agree with them. they are a license holder and having their company tank because topps revokes their license for not defending the ip is just not something they will risk, hell, I wouldn't! people playing 3d prints and whatnot at unofficial events and at home/FLG stores is totally cool with me, I cant know the financial circumstances of the people I play with and frankly some battlemech models just aren't available to play officially except through IWM. I have IWM models and that is a whole ass hobby in itself, I cant in good conscious demand people restrict themselves to IWM and just "get GUD" on assembling them when a 3d print is available. my two cents.
Love everything you said - and agree the “get gud” mentality on the internet in general is derpy. IWM stinks. I recently decided to be a masochist and buy the IWM mastodon. Better than the old ones, but like, I don’t want to be pinning and gluing like a neanderthal. It’s 2024!
it seems like I have to give my sister a call for that challange. If I get her to use the giant 2million € 3d printer at university to print a titanium atlas the gift card will be mine.
!!! If you send me a titanium atlas, consider yourself a winner 😂
I see 3D printing in much the same light as house rules and things like Override. CGL leaves a gap? The fans will find ways to fill it. As was said in the discussion, 3D printing is no different from any other kind of proxy. The line comes when you monetize it contrary to the wishes of the license holder. Even there, I'd suggest that charging at cost for printed models wouldn't violate any IP rights.
There is meaningful demand for alternatives to CCP models. CGL should have long since begun to look for an alternative solution to CCP-affiliated production. IMO the ideal would be to partner with IWM to get them set up with plastic model manufacturing in Cincinnati. You'd think that back-to-back multi-million-dollar Kickstarter campaigns for Battletech models would have given them the financial wherewithal to fund such a project.
The Blood Asp was a fun 'Mech when it appeared in MechCommander 2. As with most BT PC games, there's usually some kind of "best" option, and in MC2 it was the Blood Asp. CGL's new sculpt looks like it'll be the best version of the design which we've yet seen and I'm definitely looking forward to getting my copy.
You blew my mind with the Override comparo.. but you are dead on as always!
I’m $700 deep into printing so far, with the printer, cleaner/curer, laptop, etc. I’m interested in some indie games (like Crow Industry’s Starship Troopers) that are ALL print-at-home. I only recently started printing things for BT, but in a very, VERY limited capacity. I’m printing my own hex bases, that come with hazard stripes already molded into the front arc, for easier painting, and they also have spots underneath to mount magnets for transport.
Model wise, I’ve printed a Centurion mech, but that is simply because the centurion is a personal favorite, and I prefer the MWO model over CGL’s. I’d 100% buy an official Centurion model IF it had more of the MWO design. I’ve also printed a custom variant of the Cataphtact, again for personal, MWO nostalgia.
I’d LOVE to see CGL, do a print-on-demand, or even expand the “Premium” line, as I do buy each of those direct from them. I don’t buy prints 3d party from Etsy, but when I do need multiples of specific mechs, I’ve bought them off eBay. It’s easy to find official, single CGL models in the $5-$10 from sellers that HAVE bought the box sets for a single mech then sell off the rest…
Oh, and I’m not super concerned about fragility, as there tends to be a lack of hammers sitting around our gaming table. 😉 I’m used to resin material from other manufacturers, as well as multi part plastics…. None of which can stand up to the same abuse of a solid chunk of plastic that is a battletech figure.
@jgs_minis lol! Fair point. I hammer my minis when they fail to do their job on the table 😂
I think do what u want.
But how many nechs you need at the end?
In 1 battle in classic max 6-8 and you need 2 days.
Of course if you want many different armys. Trinary of falcon with 4 Loki 3 Thor 2 Turkina 3 Cougar 3 Uller, and so on with wolf or IS. Than yes make it 3D print.
CGL should make variant packs Mad Cat A-E or for time clan invasion.
For most player one or two mech is enough for playing.
Variant packs would sell like hot cakes!!! Great idea.
For example: Up coming WoB pack with 6 Celestial mech, how awesome would it be with parts for all variant!
I wouldnt mind if it cost double like normal 6mechs pack.
I have “killed” so many perfectly healthy plastic minis during the donation process for kit bashing 😂
3D printing is fine, to an extent... If people never support the official release, we won't get anymore releases. I have 3D prints, but phase them out when official releases come out. Some people say 3D printing is cheaper or that they don't have money for official stuff, but these people had the money to buy a printer, and resin, and conceivably the files (unless they pirated those). So that argument doesn't make sense to me. I buy official stuff because I like it and want more of it. I buy books, both novels and sourcebooks, because I want these releases to be successful and more of them to be made. I can't help but roll my eyes when I play against people who only have 3D prints. Like sure you are a part of the hobby, but what are you doing for the franchise by not paying to support the franchise. I'm not trying to be elitist, because trust me I have a lot of prints, but they are mostly of units that don't have newer minis or minis at all. Like I think I said on the last video, prints are fine, especially to decide if you enjoy the game, but at some point you need, in my opinion, to use official products to really help the franchise grow and prosper.
Well said!!
Regardless of how the mech is produced I would suspect anything resin be it 3d printed or traditionally molded is not gonna take a hammer too well :) The CGL stuff probably won't like it much either though I would guess it would squish not break. A more realistic test would be to drop the print. Table-height, floor-height, carpet, tile, etc. I do understand the 'joy' of the hammer though :)
Hahah you caught me - I really just want to smash stuff lol
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming 😂 Understandable! I did just think of one sort of nice thing about 3D resin. Obviously trying to find some that isn't overly brittle/has some flex is important for mini's repairs are generally pretty easy as it takes super glue like a champ. I am not sure what type of plastic CGL uses but I assume it is related to PVC(?). Obviously this stuff is not easy to break/damage but also not as easy to repair. If the plastic is the same stuff as plastic model kits/GW plastics well repair is very easy with model cement. Regardless really been enjoying your channel the last couple of months ago. I first encountered BT with the 2nd ed. box set and 3025 Tech Readout, man, must have been 10-ish years old. Recently picked up Alpha Strike and Armored Combat box sets to get back into it. Those sets plus 3D printing have gotten me a lot of mechs in a short amount of time. Now I need to get painting.... :)
The fond memories of paging through the old TROs are real!!! Good stuff
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Man I spent hours and hours and even more hours pouring over the 3025 and 3026 TRO's in my pre-teens :)
@Witchcraft467 you and me both 🙂
3D print durability challenge? Guess he hasn't seen the video of a guy driving over his 3d printed miniatures with a car. Not sure if the minis would survive something like a hammer, but there are some insane additives for resin available now that can withstand high drops and even the entire shipping process with ease.
I love it! Listen, I am open to having my mind changed - but more than surviving the hammer, I want to see quality and durability together. I have not seen it to date from any prints.
Will yall be at chupacabra con?
Also challenge accepted, as long as you are ok with fantasy minis and not mechs or vehicles (we currently do not sell anything sci fi although are working with our sculptors to change this) I’ll even include a traditional resin sculpt/cast, a white metal spincast, and, a set of our resin printed stuff so you can compare side by side. We use elgato Saturn 3s, our full bank of 7 takes up about the same space as my home computer desk fyi..
I’ll send an email later
Happy to publicly state my company as well if requested by dfa directly :)
If you send me something to look at I am happy to give your company a plug and a shout out!
Hammers are cruel roflh especially on awesome minis. Haven’t met a mini yet that’ll take a hammer. We do an 8 foot floor drop to test our designs
Also I don’t think anyone is arguing the strength as much, it’s the overall quality, a blend of strength and detail.
I also love the catalyst minis, but… know they can be sooo much better. And the honest issue here is availability, and non pros making stuff. If catalyst would licence things out we would see a huge uptick in not only available designs but also an increase in quality
@adriannolan5120 great comment - and agree on the hammer 😂 it’s all for the cinematic experience!!!
I’m a boomer and very experienced 3d printer.
12k printer at $850 that takes up 60% of the basement? That comment goes to show just how out of touch with the printing landscape.l you guys are.
The truth is a 12k printer cost $299 and is the same size as a the older 1 and 2k.
12k printers cost the same as what I spent on a 1k printer when they first came out.
You can absolutely find 12k printers at ridiculous prices and some of those have features that are over the top for use with dentist offices for the use of making dentures and crowns.
The standard gamer doesn’t need that level. An Elegoo 12k Saturn 3 for $299 on Amazon will print mechs of better quality IMO than you get with retail mechs.
If you’re printing your models scales will always be exactly where you want them as you can control the size of the print.
Put your money where mouth is. Send one of these to the studio.
(… also I never said how big the basement was)
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming lol. Put “YOUR” money where you mouth is and make your own prints for the content. Buy an Elegoo Saturn 3 use “ABS like” resin for the durability and climb into the 21st century. If you’d actually do the journey of printing a mech, you’d have the experience to formulate a proper opinion on 3d printing. Printers are very affordable at $299 and you’ll be able to print anything you’d like. Not just mechs. Water washable ABS like resin cost $20.
To be fair… I actually think you are not going to give printing a proper chance. Why? Based on your strong opinions based on a serious lack of knowledge about it… you just aren’t the type of person that falls into the mindset of printing. That’s fine. There is nothing wrong with that. There is a good amount of people that don’t want to print for one reason or another.
The problem I have is that with my mindset you can print or you can buy retail. The choice is yours. With the mindset of the anti-printer, there is no choice. It’s a buy retail only world and you can’t print your own. If I’m printing my own and not selling them to the public it shouldn’t matter to anyone what I do. With my take on it both sides are happy. With the anti-printer stance you dictate to others what to do regardless of what their reasoning is.
The problem I see is a flaw in the business model for Battletech. There are lots of missed opportunities. Official STL files could be offered for those who print. Commercial Licenses could be done for wanting to print and sell. Those licenses are an actual thing and why you see stuff popping up on Etsy.
For retail they can offer mechs as singles so you can buy a mech you want and not in a bundle. If I was to buy a bundle and didn’t have a need for those extra mechs, I’d offer them on eBay in an effort to get my money back.
Address the lack of availability across the globe. None of the Barnes & Noble stores in my local area have Battletech mechs for sale. It’s only only and even then I can’t get all Battletech products. Everything is Order Online.
Why not partner with Hero Forge and have a mech builder. You could start with the basic mech and then build the version you want by selecting build options. If you can do it for D&D like Hero Forge already does, mechs could be done as well. With Hero Forge, you can download an STL or get a physical product sent to you. Again, a modern miniature business direction and not one stuck in 1977 where it all started.
@billcedarheath387 I agree with the last half 10000% and this is the crux of it all. CGL does have moments where they do seem to be “stuck” in an 80s mentality. I think we did a jump point on this as well.
As for me, my money is already invested in bringing you this free content. You are a 3D print enthusiast and I called your baby ugly. I’d be mad if I were in your shoes. But I have honestly yet to see (even from “high end” machines anything close to plastics. Maybe its the STL. Maybe its the printer. Maybe its the resin. But ultimately I don’t have to care about any of that when I can walk in a store and buy a consistent product.
It’s not to say “all 3D prints suck” - but I think unless you are REALLY good at it, they will be sub-par.
A few people have strongly disagreed, so change my mind. Allegedly prints cost 25 cents. Send me a model and I’ll send you the 25 cents and the 5 bucks for flat rate shipping.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming If you don’t care about it let it go. 3d printing isn’t your jam. I get it. It isn’t for everyone, but to take a strong stance against something that you have no experience with doing doesn’t make sense.
It’s not like I’m telling you that the retail product is sub par and that you must print them. My stance is you do you.
Be fair about it. If you want retail go for it.
If people want to print and they find it acceptable or better than retail then let them.
How we enjoy our hobby is our business and we don’t have to prove anything to anyone else or should we tell them how to hobby.
I’m not taking a strong stance against 3D printing. I think it’s great and has terrific use cases (we spent 80% of the episode supporting this!!).
I just do not believe resin prints are “better/more detailed” or “more durable” than the plastics. I haven’t seen it. Prove me wrong.
You didn't cover ascetics. So I love the Centurion from MWO I hate the Catalyst and Ironwind versions. I don't sell my prints and i support Catalyst to the tune of 750$ plus on Kickstarter and hundreds on books. The other huge thing Is vehicles and terrain. Can't get vehicles even after the Mercenaries ships we will be short dozens of vehicles.
Yah, definitely on board with you regarding vehicles and unavailable models in general. Aesthetics is a fair point - I really like the MWO banshee and think the CGL one is silly looking, so I get that.
The challenge or contest requires sending you printed mechs and that could be considered “distributing” and that wouldn’t be cool. Hobby 3d printing is for private personal use only and a license would be required to distribute or sell.
Haha I would love to see that go to court. You giving me a model is not distributing.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Funny as you can go to jail for intent to distribute based on a quantity of product you possess. And that’s for never even being caught doing so. That’s a debate for legal scholars though. 🤣
In still not sending you a mech as I feel you wouldn’t appreciate it for what it is even if it was the best you ever held. 🤣
@billcedarheath387 much like 3D prints that are better than plastics, I have yet to see anyone go to jail for “intent to distribute toy robots”
But I have been wrong before!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming Look into the direction of GW 40k for how crazy that world can get. I’d like to think Battletech can remain outside that of that craziness. Maybe that why we should talk less about 3d printing and just go with the proxies being approved per the rules…
“Proxy Miniatures: While having the exact miniature matching the make and model of the players’ units is ideal, it may not always be a practical option for those whose resources are limited . Players should therefore feel free to use substitute miniatures to represent their units as “proxies” for any missing units-so long as the substitute miniatures are at least of a size and general shape that appropriately reflects the unit in question . Because likeness can be a subjective thing, however, using proxy figures should only be employed if all other players agree.”
Here’s a thought for you to consider. Would you turn down a good game of Battletech because your opponent was using 3d printing mechs or would you say “game on!”
If it gets people playing then celebrate the ability for playing regardless of printed or not.
Dat Blood Asp though.
MMMMM mmm
Glad i stayed for Thom's "Karen butt claim"
A 'Mech Forge for Battletech? With customization based on the milieu you want the mech to play in? Yeah, that'd be awesome. Imagine how much they could make charging the $10 a pop for the STL or the 3D printed model they could ship to the player.
Also, on your challenge, watch out for the @$$hole who decides to use carbon fiber filament with a dual head printer (so they can use PVA support material)... Make sure your hammer is big enough on that one, and wear an ANSI rated, OSHA approved, dust mask.
Love the tip! Good call 😘 Someone joking said they were going to print on in titanium. I want mechs made from exotic materials.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming titanium... Well, there are some incredible industrial sintered metal printing processes with powdered metal (and strong lasers) that could print that, along with tungsten carbide... But yeah, those are... Specialized, and not something easily put in the garage (unless you worked with the power company to get a new transformer).
Can we make 3D printed ‘mech meat snacks?
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming meat? Maybe... Chocolate is a certainty however.
@michaelsudsysutherland5353 omg easter will never be the same! A day of wargaming.
Resin printing will be on its way out soon. Too cantankerous to use and with SLS printing coming down in price (see also Micron Desktop SLS 3D Printer), I'd say Resin printers have about 1.5 years left before they are tossed in the garbage in favor of SLS. Pretty soon, this discussion will be moot once there is no delicate resin (sintering is rock hard), no weird chemicals, and the powder it uses stays in the machine. I'd say Catalyst and other miniatures companies need to get a grip on the prices they are charging. Or that might be their game - make as much money as you can right not because eventually the technology will push away manufacturing as it has been. The days are numbered.
Great comment. I am googling SLS now… good stuff!
The renders of the new BT line always looks awesome. Too bad they chose to make it in PVC (aka cheap boardgame plastic) making the clean lines a lot lower quality in the end product.
That's btw, another reason why printing can be vastly superior. Yes, I have to clean some voxel lines on my prints, but it's super easy to do compared to properly getting rid of mold lines on PVC (of which there a a LOT the way the chinese lay out their molds).
Sadly, the premium models are not that much of a marked improvement.
I've just been painting a lot of prints lately and I'm currently doing my Alpha Strike box and my God... The official models are way more of a hassle to paint up.
Oh man the premium models are turds!! I just got two stormcrows and they’re literally backwards (weapons on the wrong arms). Like da f*** does that happen!!
I will say I have seen improvements from day 1 of AGOAC and where theyre at today with the plastics - but will 100% concede there is still cleanup to be done!
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming yeah, there's definitely been improvements in the later models. My NW highlanders command lance was much easier to clean up compared to my AGoAC box (and some of the older sculpts found in the Alpha Strike box... Might have been leftover stock).
A battletech video should do CGL giftcards.
CGL has an amazon store. You may also want to refill the resin your 3D printer 😁
with the way things are going now - yes - 3d printing is indeed a legitimate threat to CGL
Idk… most people we have spoken to tend to seem to supplement their collection with prints. I think it is a smaller % overall that ONLY print. Hard to know for sure.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming with the latest issues they had with the Kickstarter...they allienated a large section of their fan base, as well as some of their other "practices" - there are a handful of FB and reddit groups that number around 5k players that are not too pleased and have stated they will not use CGL material until changes are made . But who knows
@sinnergod565 but will you overcharge for shipping!? Asking for a friend 😂 I kid… I kid…
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming i never charged for shipping when I ran my store.
That’s a deal!!! (i was taking a light-hearted shot at the recent shipping price debacle with the recent Kickstarter haha)
23:21 maybe you Americans should invest in forming Unions or not voting against your own interests , and maybe an 80 dollar box wouldnt be out of reach ............ And ive got news for yous anyway if you dont have disposable income tabletop wargaming isnt for you , sorry but its ALWAYS been that way .
If you are printing "free" .stls you get what you pay for. I have gotten very good quality out of the .stl models I have bought and printed. There are some of my 3D models that are every bit as good as the authentic ones in fact the Battlemaster I have printed, I feel looks better than the original model. The other thing is there are 3D files that allow you to printer EVERY variant of some mechs! They are also multipose so your force looks much more dynamic. Last thing, I like to play this game as a "historical" game. I printed 31 Stingers and 15 Cicadas to do the Battle of Kittery. That was really cool and totally impractical to purchase them.
I don't know that 3d printing and sketchy Etsy sellers are quite the same thing. I think the real way 3d printing penetrates the tabletop gaming market is every gaming group having a guy who 3d prints.
While stls don't make much sense now for a lot of companies, things can change very rapidly as new technology gets normalized. Tabletop miniature games usually have a lifecycle, no matter what they do, and many companies may find they can still generate revenue with digital files even if they can't afford big manufacturing runs. Because for games like Battletech the stls will be out there either way, and the free, unofficial ones are only going to get better.
Just an update: Almost done printing Cliff Mount from Terrianify, 3 rolls of filament. Rugged Hills is a massive set!!
Haha you won’t be disappointed!!!!
Thanks for the shout out guys. When models become available easily and cheaply from the manufacturer, the printer route has less value to the average gamer. They can be a lot of hassle and time consuming between file sourcing/creation and material cost, time, and cleaning. To the average gamer, a high end 3D printer has limited utility. Hobbyists on the other hand are more likely to gain benefit from such a machine because they can really achieve results to further their hobby goals. This does not mean it is cost effective in any way for them to pursue printing, but it does allow for their creativity to be maximised.
Especially when I am kitbashing mechs, I wish I knew how to 3D model.
Haven't finished the video yet but my opinion is the biggest hurdle with resin 3d printing is not the machine, the resin, environment, etc. it is the waste. I love my printer(sub-$200 unit), it took me very little time to get going, I would say that my mechs I have printed are very, very close to as good as those in the Alpha Strike/Game of Armored Combat boxes but the waste resin and alcohol/cleaning solution is a hassle. Cured resin is pretty benign but the uncured stuff is not.
Good tip - another thing I didn’t even know about (I wonder how many really do!). Thanks for the comment 👍
I’ve painted some decent 3d printed stuff, and I’ve been unable to paint some total trash it wasn’t worth my time cleaning from Etsy/ebay (and obviously it wasn’t worth the time of the people that sold them). Most of the good ones have been vehicles, and all the bad ones have been mechs. I think the fact that there aren’t model files people can swipe for free from MWO/MW5 for vehicles probably plays into that more than a bit. People who are out to make as quick and easy a buck as they can are going to gravitate to what they can most easily get.
I'm completely in favor of Catalyst selling FTL files.
Sure people can sell what they make but their doing that already. At this
point CGL isn't getting any money for those at all.
As for a sandable auto primer for print lines-I use Upol Expert double coverage.
I'm still waiting for official minis of the Ferret VTOL, Partisan LRM variant, and in scale standard infantry.
Since 1987. 😐
LOL this made me crack up. What is the deal with infantry! Hopefully we see more vehicles as we move past this KS.
Thanks for watching and commenting!!
There are hundreds of Battle Mechs out there that have no physical models and only exist in Books, Manuals etc etc. 3D Printing allows you to play the mechs and all their variants that would otherwise never see a play table.
Gimme a good Gallowglas.
@@DeathfromAboveWargaming I have a good Gallowglass STL if you want it :P
@Ispy10101 it would be torture… all I could do is look at it on a screen!
18:45 me as an Australian "shipping issues and availability is an excuse US people roll out for 3D printing 😂😅😂😅😂😅😂" ............ Get real its YEARS before some product gets released here IF at ALL 😂
Iron Wind Metals have done 3 different sculpts for the Blood Asp (not including varients). Taking the legs from one, the torso from another and the weapons from the other, you could possibly make an OK looking mech.
Frankenasp haha I love it.
2:00 see what i mean , these people think THEY OWN the game , who gave any of these 3D printers "rights" to make money off their IP ?
Email sent :)
Yeeees!!!
Nice! A jump point on my B-Day :) an about 3D printing! All the best!
Happy Birthday!!
Really you have to understand the the whole discussion is moot. Newer printers coming out are on the verge of making themselves as easy as appliances, They are instituting quality of life fixes for these devices all the time. Also the cost (even the upfront) is negligible compared to some of the costs of owning some wargames.
We miss you Dom!
Haha Dom is still around! He’ll be back!
As always, Brilliant content. Thanks to you all, Aaron & Thom, and guest. Trolls will Troll, you guys keep the great attitudes and especially having fun...
Haha the internet is what it is!! Thanks for watching!
I would like to say first that I like your show. This was not a great episode. It took most of the episode explaining 3D printing. The tone is sarcastic and patronizing. Ares Games and Minis sells 3D printed stuff, and you advertise for them (Hypocracy, its ok to sell 3D prints on a website, but not etsy). CGL can make the rules on their forums if they want to. It's their forum. Everyone else will go to another forum for 3D printing battletech. CGL forums censorship is not even a issue, except to rile your audience up.
And this challenge that you made... what the heck? You fake pay us 100 dollars to humiliate us to 12 thousand subscribers? Just stop picking on your own fanbase. Just stop. JUST STOP... People out on youtube are not here for your amusement. You are only going to make fun of their sculpts when you smash them. There is even small worry that you will cherry pick my comment to make fun of me to the entire community.
Look, I just don't get what you are selling. It's not for me.
Give me render blenders. Give me chats about cool products and weapons/gear of the battletech universe. Give me anything that is not vitriol.
They spend half the episode saying "Yes 3D printing is something here to stay, no one can change that and it should be even further endorsed" and your takeaway was them going "Noooo 3d print bad >:("
Most resin prints are dogshit quality you can get online, dude. I have many resin prints from a friend and some off of Etsy, and all of them break when you so much as look at them funny. I've yet to have a Catalyst sculpt break from a drop yet over 3-4 years. There are MWO prints I absolutely love over Catalyst designs (can't stand the CGL Centurion or Griffin), and there are some mechs that have neither an IWM nor CGL sculpt that needs to be 3D printed. However, if I have the choice, I almost always go for the CGL sculpts because they're SIGNIFICANTLY more durable and just better looking on average. The average 3D print available will never live up to the average CGL model. I'm very much interested in this contest because I'd be happy to know what 3D print sellers would be worth a damn.
I will not make fun of this comment.
The criticism and commentary are all meant in good fun; we have 3d prints, some of us 3d print (some of us aspire to) we support companies that 3d print. I think I and Aaron both pointed out how exemplary Sage Prints aerospace units are. And you can see our love of Terrainify’s products all over the place.
And I think, judging from the rest of the comments on the video, people understand where we are coming from and can accept criticism with humor.
Hope this reframes it more positively for you.