edit: not going through comments anymore, responded to a ton so far. just gonna let the video sit. too much brain rot imna go play starcraft big shoutout to nemesis for this conversation - ua-cam.com/users/Nemesis_lol, www.twitch.tv/lol_nemesis i originally wasnt going to record the chat but my vod didnt track audio for my response so we just did it live instead
Always enjoyed nemesis content, can tell as the chat goes on his first reply was very bold and seemed set in stone then as it went into more depth he explains that’s not how he meant it exactly lol. Possibly was just from English not being his main language so configuring wording and sentences confused him somewhat. Nice job on the discussion though. Even though I have no intention on trying those bindings still found myself watching the whole video as I know you always explain things properly and honest. Hope you’re doing well and hope we get to see you showing nemesis or the person he refers you too seeing the WASD set up.
yeah a lot of people are a ton more pressed about this than i or nemesis ever were. crazy how people insert themselves into this shit and get personally invested in stuff they have no part in. glad we could both have a chat and get to know each others' perspectives. still so crazy that some viewers talk in the way they do without any education/social skills to back it up
@@KingNidhoggyeah just getting worse and worse everything’s taken so seriously or purposely taken the wrong way to cause drama just for the sake of shit talking someone
Is there any way you can post like a handcam inclusive video of how you play with wasd controls cause like nemesis I imagine people would appreciate a visual aid
no just dont form an opinion unless you're willing to watch the whole thing. bare minimum for an intelligent person - not attacking u just making sure to say this for anyone who is thinking of typing shit@@PinkeySuavo
@@KingNidhogg i would love to see you have these long discussions with more people, not only about league, like you had this discussion at the end about respect, it was nice listening to that
loved the video, great discussion. nidhoggs little smiles whenever some response to a question was prepared beforehand really threw me back to highschool philosophy classes. nice to see nemesis seeming way more understanding than in his streamed reaction. banger video nidhogg
Well this environment is a lot more welcoming to a discussion. Whilst watching a video there's not back and forth. Of course this environment isn't enough alone but luckily we got two adults. Most likely due to the fact that they are long time players and they had to adapt be open minded and learning new things about the game and that is how they stayed challenger.
im performing a stainless steel fret level on my guitar while watching this. thank you so much for giving me 2 hours of actually good discussion and podcast style back and forths to make this entertaining for me.
I truly appreciate that you both are able to talk about this and not make it personal (or emotional) and have been enjoying so far just wanted to show my respect.
the answer all along was the friends we made or something idk what the meme is. lock the gooning in am i doing this right? yall make new shit up all the time
@@KingNidhoggyou totally mogged him here big bro, have you been looksmaxxing? lowkey I can tell you've been watching a LOT of skibidi toilet and adin ross frfr, this video is BUSSIN
i havent finished the video yet, but i really appreciate your patience when a misunderstanding came up and you tried to resolve it, so many times i already imagined the conversation to take a turn for the worse but you were able to stir it back. I hope more videos like this are being produced, either by you or other content creators. cause it just puts the focus on the education/knowledge part and not on who was right or wrong. It makes the increase of understanding for both parties the center of the discussion
man this video was such a good watch, the thing I love the most seeing are potential hostile interactions being resolved like this in such a professional way. Especially in a community where discourse often involves threats. Good shit man 👍keep it up
this is so cool... you and nemesis are two of my favorite players and it would be interesting to hear both perspectives, cant wait to finish watching this at home later
Damn. Listening to you two was kinda wholesome. I appreciate your way of approaching other humans and get to know them if you disagree and strive for understanding and being understood. Also working towards an environment with more love & respect for one another. Watching this in Germany so it's 2:30 am rn You're an awesome human being mister Nidhogg!
Can't believe I was able to flawlessly listen to this conversation because it's actually quite educational, starting off into optimum gameplay and open mindedness and both were able to come to an end on a happy agreement!
after watching these full 2 hours i really loved watching this and i feel like u are a really good person to talk too and would love to understand ur way of thinking more
It was really interesting to listen to both of you and see the different view. Because english isnt Nemesis' primary language it sometimes felt like he didnt really understand what you were trying to say because of the way you structured your sentence. At least thats what it felt like to me.
yeah but im not going to patronize him and speak to him like a child - the couple times where he told me he didnt understand i would rephrase but otherwise i just spoke normally.
Thanks for organizing this video, it's very refreshing and unique, especially in this environment of somewhat stale league content on UA-cam. I respect Nemesis a lot as a skilled player so seeing you guys talk about this topic is a super cool situation. I do have to say though, it's pretty obvious that Nemesis is not used to this type of discussion. He seemed extremely uncomfortable whenever he had to 'give up' a point or argument, as if he thought he was 'losing' instead of just sharing opinions and counterarguments. I appreciate you keeping this very civil, I could see how you got slightly frustrated at his occasional misinterpretations/misunderstandings.
i think it's maybe a language barrier of him not being able to express himself perfectly in his native tongue - that sort of frustration can be interpreted as an unwillingness to concede. it could also be a time investment thing although this is less likely as he seemed to be down to talk for a long time. i prodded a couple times just in case he felt like i was holding his time too much as well.
@@KingNidhogg language barrier definitely making an impact, he even mentions this. I should’ve mentioned it in my initial comment. The discussion overall gave me a greater understanding on efficient keyboard use in the gaming space overall and how it definitely has major room to grow in general. I remember first having this train of thought on the release of Valorant and seeing skilled players with strange binds, even moving their movement keys from WASD to things like TFGH so their ability keys were more centred. Thanks again for this video Nid, I’m almost done with it.
I don’t think he was “unwilling to concede”, since he has had this type of discussions before for even longer with LS, and other pros. Even when he was “wrong” he took it well and reconsidered, if this is your first time watching nemesis discuss something like this I could see how it be taken that way especially since English isn’t his native. However, even in this video I wouldn’t go as far to say he was “extremely uncomfortable” that’s kind of just grasping for straws or trying to analyse things in his behavior that’s just quite frankly not there
a lot of education gaps in my comments but it's good to clean up the community. it should honestly be a human right to be protected against uneducated kids' opinions on the internet. just decays my brain reading some of this shit.
Interesting and good arguments from both! I rly liked to know the opinion of nemesis on this. It seems rly hard to learn, but as a Osu mania player i think people really underestimate how much you can adapt and react to so many inputs on keyboard (and fast)
I don't want to sound over dramatic, but this was amazing to listen to! I feel as though critical analysis in the League of Legends scene is plentiful, but it's very rare to find civil and calm discussions about specific subjects on the game. I would like to see more things like this if it is possible!
It is NOT that simple. In theory, you could play league mouseless; by default, the mouse cursor rests in the middle of your screen. You could distribute abilities and click keys entirely on your keyboard and play with two hands on keyboard. For example, you could use WASD keys for camera movement and KL keys for left and right click. As cool as this seems in theory, and I would love to see someone do a challenge where they try to play the game this way, it's obviously not a good way to play, nor more accurate than using mouse. Like, imagine trying to use that to land a prediction Hwei QW on your lane opponent running away while dodging the enemy Lee Sin Q that came to bail your opponent out. 😶
Just watched/listened to the entire video while playing RoR2, and it was very interesting! I personally swapped to WASD and even if I don't play ranked it was something fun to try as someone who mainly played locked camera before, my camera control has developed immensely because by forcing myself to use WASD I can crutch on centering my champ, and have gotten decently used to it. To say if I'm better than before mechanically is a bit tough, but I'm sure I would be if I give it a couple weeks or months. Nonetheless, I respect both of you more after being able to listen to you fully give out your reasonings, and I think the conversation reinforced why I enjoy your content more than the average content creator's experience, for lack of a better word. I am a person who enjoys the way you deal with conflict and how you hold your chat or people who argue with you, to a standard that they should be decent human beings in 95% of case scenarios (case-by-case as was said in the video) as it leads to a community that is less toxic and frankly more enjoyable to me. Not to say Nemesis is a streamer that acts this way (I feel as if he is pretty calm most of the time), but streamers such as Tyler1 or Tarzaned, as much as they can be funny or teach good macro/fundamentals, the actual egos and personalities that they create in their very large audience are oftentimes the beginnings of toxicity in games. My idea is that if the toxicity wasn't glorified in the form of the most popular streamers, then the game would be less toxic as a whole (not completely void as that is against human nature). I think that Nemesis should value the action of requesting a respectful course of action from his viewers. Even if say only 50% or even 25% of the people that were going to comment negative things on another video actually listen, that is not only fewer people doing so, but it is a receipt to the person the viewers are attacking that at least nemesis did what he could to prevent that, which would make the other person have a bit of a better feeling towards him. The tone of how he was explaining it was bad was also not great and the fact that he thinks he can be confident enough that it is bad for everyone is strange, especially since it is a video game and not something that would affect the lives of others. I do respect Nemesis for staying for the whole conversation, especially when it got more philosophical. I would be interested to see more long talks like this with other people whether it's friends or other high Elo players on things, I feel like your outlook on life is one not shared by many your age and it makes these conversations interesting. I would also love to see you have Nemesis watch you play a game or if he doesn't feel qualified, maybe find a couple other high Elo players from different backgrounds, like RTS or only league. I think there can be something here in the full optimization of the keyboard, even if this layout isn't it maybe it lead to something else. It was also just really fun to watch :) anyways sorry for the archival level of text, but I really enjoyed this and I hope you have a wonderful day
I think this is such a fun discussion to have just as a food for thought type of thing. Nidhogg’s keybind and camera control style is super odd and interesting, I can see how it’s efficient, but it takes a very different approach to the game. I’m a dirty Lock Screen player but not 100% Lock Screen. I unlock very regularly and only lock during combat when everything is on screen. I, like Nidhogg use Y to lock and unlock my camera, therefore I also double-tap it to recenter when unlocked.
I love nemi, his arguments were weak a lot of the time and you did well. When you discussed the center of the keyboard thing i was reminded of my mate who intentionally moved up his keys up a row to have more buttons for his thumb.
if you told me 4ish years ago that you'd be having a conversation/debate with nemesis, i'd have thought you were lying. congrats on making so much progress on this career of yours my dude. incredibly proud of you :) (i've yet to finish the video but the insights provided are already pretty damn interesting to think about)
Disclaimer first: I watched all of it Not sure if I'm reading into it correctly, but to me it seemed like the "saying hello" point caused the whole test of character discussion. I am with you on your ethical perspectives 100% and the logic behind it and I also try hard to be the most morally pleasing person that I can (and want) to be, but in many european cultures it is considered (most!) moral to not "invade" someone's personal space in public. Small Talk between strangers is extremely rare in Switzerland (alpine country, where I'm from), Slovenia, Finland and many other countries. If I for example were to invade someone's personal space, there would always be an acute reason and I would address the fact that I'm invading their space by figure of speech. But what I've experienced in North America and "tropical" countries is extremely different to what I'm used to. There I noticed people having (from a swiss perspective: "meaningless", in the sense that there would need to be acute meaning to break into someone's space) smalltalk while waiting at a cash register and you would maybe see this on 1 out of 365 days where I'm from. Of course, a hello back is considered to be respectful by almost anyone, and in the right setting (not randomly in public) almost anyone will do it, also where I'm from. But if it were to happen (from a european perspective) at a strange time, most people will definitely not feel bad about not saying it back, because """random""" hellos FEEL like an invasion of privacy. And this negative emotion will more likely occur rather than thinking about how this person who didn't follow the social code feels. For example, the fear of invading personal space supercedes active signs of respect in Switzerand: On public transport, people will almost always ask you if the seat next to you is free (in case someone else you know might join), though from personal experience the answer is "yes" in 99,99999% of cases. And it also happens in contexts where it is 100% obvious nobody will join you, but is is said as a form of respect, beause the alternative would be to assume even someone's POTENTIAL personal space as your own. My honest feelings when I watched the last segment was: Talking about how someone might feel after not getting a hello back seems very strange for me, and not only for the reason I mentioned, but also that in my cultural experience it would indeed be disrespectful to assume that somebody else has to be responsible for your emotions for something trivial. Of course if we enter contexts with prolonged social interaction, as in work or school, people will sacrifice their personal (emotional) freedom and foster relationships that feel good to talk in. It's very strange from the swiss perspective to even consider instances where someone would feel bad for ingoring someone, because we wouldn't ignore someone if it wasn't their fault in the first place. So "hellos" out of the blue, as Nemesis also put it, are not used, you would say "Excuuuse me, X" or "I'm sorry, X". I liked the video a lot but don't stress too much about small talk, it is not what defines a respectful culture, most evidently the case in the USA, though I know you're from Canada and I've been there and think it's a culture of respect, just with added smalltalk. (but also it's a huge country and distances are really big, so I guess that ups the value of smalltalk considerably.)
that's interesting because most countries you mentioned that have this hello = invasion of privacy culture i.e. Switzerland, Slovenia, Finland are European 1st world countries that all score highly on the World Happiness Report, so clearly either this culture contributes positively to happiness or it doesn't but is also not a big deal. This is quite shocking to me as even growing up as an introvert, I have never found responding to hellos difficult, invasive or any description that makes it feel like a big deal, and guess what - I live in a hot country, which brings me to my point. I don't really wanna stop at the "this is my culture, you should respect other people's culture" because that is akin to blind patriotism or joining any religion because you resonate with their ideals without considering the truthfulness of their head figure. I think your description of countries as tropical might give an explanation to this split in cultures - in hotter countries, people are motivated by the hot weather to voice out, or "act", in a strong way, kinda like the phrase "in the heat of the moment"; in colder countries like the ones you mentioned, if you walk outside, it is usually best to reach the destination asap because it's cold. This gives people more reason to look at a random hello negatively as the cost of stopping and saying hello back is more than that in hotter countries. In other words, colder climates encourage less action than hotter climates. But that's me trying to use extremely generalized thermodynamics to explain how two groups of human resulted in different cultures. Lemme know what you think!
@@rayc7914 I have similar feelings concerning the climate, and I wonder what more there is to it... I would also like to think that in hot countries people can be social at (almost) all times of the year and are more likely to do so in the evening (in case it's too hot during the day). And since in comparison to the countries I listed there is less wealth, socialising is valued more highly. Concerning your thoughts on hello culture in cold places, I'll take Switzerland as an example. Just like I mentioned in the public transport example, there also exists the contrary. On a hike in the mountains hello culture is very much celebrated. If you wouldn't say hello wholeheartedly on a hike, they would... I can't even imagine it. It feels like it's either a really friendly hello or no hello at all. And it's not that a hello is looked at negatively, it just doesn't happen (except for rural areas and mostly in passing unless you know the person). And it doesn't happen because nobody wants it to happen xD it's a social contract that celebrates personal space and peace of mind. But if you were to find yourself where I live, it is absolutely possible to respect the social contract and still engafe someone in conversation. If you show that you honestly appreciate their attention and time and ask for help, people will generally be eager to help you because all that matters is that the social contract is valued :D
@@xCLiCH3E You did mention that Switzerland is an alpine country, so I think hiking is a unique case where friendly bonding occurs because of the historical culture. Now I'm not bashing your culture, but I also think that you should accept that hellos are looked at negatively in the countries you mentioned because the point of saying hello is to be friendly or to start a conversation. The precise reason nobody wants to say hello in public in those countries is because saying hello bears negative complications, otherwise it would be encouraged which implies that it's positive, but instead you have a "social contract" to not say hello. If saying hello is good, such contract would not exist. Again I'm not bashing your culture, it's moreso a fact that overall hello is unappreciated in the countries you mentioned and reasonably so. I concede however that the cold-hot theory is mostly baseless and that being over-friendly has its downsides.
@@rayc7914 Let me think about this. "Hellos" are looked at negatively (...) because the point of "hello" is to be friendly or start a conversation. I cannot agree to this because friendliness or conversation is not disliked by their very nature, hence the hiking/rural area(/+other contexts) example. "The precise reason nobody wants to say hello in public in those countries is because saying hello bears negative complications, otherwise it would be encouraged which implies that it's positive, but instead you have a "social contract" to not say hello." The social contract's aim is not to ban the "hello", its aim is to showcase respect. Because I was making the point in regards to countries with social contracts that encourage small talk in many more contexts, and "hello" is a mean to initiate small talk, I formulated it as avoidance to paint a comparitive picture. But if we were to look at Switzerland in a vacuum, the version of "hello" that you know exists differently. hello(tropical): positive signal to engage in friendly conversation, in contexts a, b, c, d, (e, f) hello(cold): positive signal to engage in friendly conversation, in contexts e, f If we defined context "a" to be: 1pm, local restaurant, take away queue If this is a proper context for hello(tropical), people would feel encouraged to say it because of its positive implications. Now, if your argument is that "hello" is looked at negatively in X culture because it doesn't satisfy as many contexts (here: "a") in which it is desirable to occur in, I don't think that's reasonable to argue. In other words, if hello(cold) is defined as positive by the contexts in which it naturally occurs, there is no point in extending its agency because the contexts it would extend into are already valued positively to begin with. Basically, by this logic, every time there is a hello culture that satisfies more contexts for it to be desirable in, it would "devalue" the "hello" of the other cultures by the % amount of which it occurs more. That's obviously not the case though, except you were to assume that every non-hello context is bearing negative emotion. Actually, just speaking very subjectively, if I had to, I'd argue the opposite, though I don't think it makes sense either. By following the logic of "small talk supremacy", you are bound to misinterpret the contexts in cultures in which other forms of respect have a leading role and be inclined to view it in a negative sense. If I followed the logic of "small talk inferiority" I would be inclined to misinterpret the contexts in which the positive emotion of "hello" lives, leaving me with a negative emotion where a good one would naturally be. I hope that helps or call me out if I messed something up ^^
The prevailing attitudes of other content creators would cause them to be dismissive towards a person that spoke about their work in the way Nemesis did initially. Or worse, escalate, make it into drama content etc. Your humility in your willingness to consider that what they are saying may still have merit, even if you don’t agree, is refreshing. The world desperately needs more people willing to put in the work to display these qualities. I’m glad that Nemesis wasn’t actually as emphatically against your video as he initially appeared to be and was also sensationalizing/too spent from streaming to explain his reasoning at the time. It must be very difficult to strike that balance between sensationalism that works with media and informative, soundly structured content with the time you have to make your points. I recall LS talking about one of the main reasons for something being considered “good” in pro/high level league were basically “the pros in x region do this and they’ve been performing well, so it’s good,” and I think he used the phrase “an appeal to authority” to describe this thinking. One thing that did bug me about all of this is that it felt like Nemesis was appealing to authority there when he was talking about Korean pros and mouse movement for camera control. They probably us it because it’s similar to what they learned the game on and have practiced and iterated the most with but that doesn’t mean it’s the best, and like any layout it has its own issues and benefits. A good analogy that comes to mind is how QWERTY keyboards have become sort of the ‘default’ layout in most places, because that’s just a layout someone made with typewriters that became popularized, so newer technology made it very similar or the same so the skill could be transferable. But it’s not really considered “optimal” for ergonomics and typing speed really. You can use it and not experience wrist problems, or achieve very high proficiency with it, but alternatives exist for marginal to greatly increased extents in avoiding pain, increasing speed and accuracy, etc. like stenography keyboards and ERGO grid layouts. Just because those layouts are different and take an investment to become proficient with doesn’t mean they don’t have merits, and just because something is familiar doesn’t make it the best.
Very good point about QWERTY to illustrate the crowd mentality issue, so to speak. I think what I find even more persuasive is the fighting game argument. In fighting games such as Tekken your character movement is bound to the left stick on your controller. The control method is analogue yet the movement is binary (you either move or you don't). So 99% of pros use a fightstick for better control, speed and tactile feedback. However, there are alternatives such as the hitbox or mixbox which use buttons for character movement. Controversial at first, they proved to be quite effective in the right hands.
im really doubtful that nemesis was meaning to appeal to authority as hard as it sounded. in that segment he said he was having problems understanding. also he was good friends with ls for a year+. obv he could actually think that mouse movement is better because the best players do it but i dont think that would be his main argument. i mostly treat it as him pointing out as a statistic. king nidhogg gave good counter arguments why that shouldnt be a siginifact part of the argument and i agree. just felt like nemesis wouldnt use a popularity fallacy too intentionally, rather this situation being: "him not amazingly experienced in debates"
The small grin at 12:25 when you already addressed his point (not being able to use abilities while moving your camera) in a previous video is so funny. It really does show the thought that you put into this before hand. Keep up the great work!
brings me back to school debates when i prepped for the exact question the other side is throwing at me lmao. the point is to have a good discussion though not score points in a debate. cant help but enjoy it though haha
he was so terrible at arguing classic american.. alwso mocked nemesis alot, which is ironic since nemesis is way better, and have achived alot of more within league of legends. but W:E fanboy
_'Wow, did I really listen to more than an hour of this discussion/debate already?.... Might as well~'_ Yasuo/Yone main here, going in. *Background:* Uses spacebar to center camera. (Never relied on fully locking camera) *Rank:* Emerald IV Peak NA, Semi-Casual Player. (Max 100 games in solo queue per season) *Objectives:* - Satisfy my interest/curiosity on how this will go. - Get my brain to actively think about my camera placement during team fights. - Exercise my brain by changing my habits and learning new things. >>> Note: I take days of breaks between playing league, so there won't be updates every day. *Day 1: Initial observations* Feels a bit weird moving my hands up to the number keys, but other than that, everything feels just like before (it does feel like [WASD] is _taking_ away keyboard space... it actually feels like it's opening up a lot more options!). I'm still mapping out my other keys (will specify on day 2 on what I settled on). In regard to camera control, my mouse can still pan the camera, so it'll serve great as training wheels as I get used to everything. It feels weird having space bar be attack move and not having something to center my camera, but I can see how this binding, once I get used to it, can marginally improve my kiting because it feels more natural than pressing [A] from [QWER]. I'm also switching the awkward [`/~] ([tilda key] to the left of [1]) for toggle champions only (it was awkward moving my pinky up then left into such a small key...) and I'm excited to see if it makes it easier to dive enemies. P.S. - Don't worry, all experimentation and the training phase will be done in a custom 1 v 5 Beg./Inter. Bots game. I'm not leaving until I can Keyblade into 5 of them with ease to get Pentakills. Day 1 Update: ... Changing all my keybinds so suddenly feels a bit too much for my brain. I sometimes lag for 500 milliseconds in my brain to dismiss moving the camera with my mouse and instead moving it with [WASD]. However, I can see how a fast mouse would become unnecessary with how much control I have over my camera now. I'm still contemplating how high I should have my camera movement sensitivity on. I have it on 20 now. Any insights or tips would be welcome~ Update 2: This scenario is rare in a ranked game, but when chasing bots through a minion wave, I find it hard for my camera to keep up. Maybe it'll get better as I get used to this type of camera control. Update 3: After getting destroyed by the intermediate bots and not being able to get revenge due to my camera being slower than Yasuo, I was getting discouraged and wanted to revert back to my old settings. But I've decided to go all in, and convinced myself how much of a hassle it would be to reprogram my old keybinds. After another custom game (after taking the entire day to untilt), I found that I was missing some simple muscle memories. Instead of flicking my mouse away from the enemy champion when kiting, I just need to tap some [WASD] keys, and vice versa. I'm also getting used to tapping [WASD] as I dash. It seems that my camera doesn't automatically center on where I teleport... I wonder of there's a setting for that...Anyways, by gaslighting myself to thinking that there's no other choice than to get used to this, I'm making drastic improvements from when I first tried these new setting on just the first day! *Day 2: Final Keybindings & More Practice* >>> Note that these are merely personal preference, and may be subject to change. [QWER]/[DF] --> [1234]/[ER] Ward: [5] Level up spells: Alt+Spell (I used to use Shift+[QWER] but Shift+Number Keys felt so awkward in my past games, so I have decided to change it as I'm writing this.) Self-cast: Shift+Spell Attack move click: [Space]/Shift+Right Click Target Champs Only: [Q] Stop: [`/~] (tilda key) Items: [6TGFY] (I don't think I'd sell boots on support, so maybe 5 is enough?) Normal Ping/Caution Ping/Emote/Chat History: [V]/[C]/[X]/[Z] Advanced Character Stats: Shift+[C] Camera Move Speed: ~30 Center Camera on Champion: MB3 (Scroll Wheel) I made sure to stock up on that good snooze to save/organize my learning from yesterday and prepare my brain cells to learn today. Camera Control seems to have improved by 25% from yesterday, but still nowhere close to my old setup yet. My left hand fingers seem a lot less lazy... somehow I'm timing Airblades better? Must be placebo against bots. Funnily enough, my fingers are still reaching towards [D] and [F] for summoners, so I'm going to focus on changing those to [E] and [R]. *Day 3: Subconscious Camera Control Budding* I'm noticing that I'm starting to subconsciously move the camera with [WASD]. It's like learning a piano piece and getting to know the left hand enough to not have to focus on it. *Day 4: Initial Games* I think I'm familiar enough to take my main into normal games now to get real experience to find more tangible learning curves. I lost my first game... but it didn't feel like my camera control was holding me back. In fact, I barely had to think about my camera placement anymore. I just... felt like I was walking on stilts. Sure, it feels like I have a lot more control over the camera, but it feels kinda hard. It has gotten multiple times easier since day 1, but it feels terrible not being able to carry my 1/10 jungler... because I went 9/9 dying 9 times unnecessarily. League is all about minimizing mistakes, so I really need more time to get used to this if I want to start winning games. I've also noticed something these past 4 days of playing league... my brain gets ~50% more exhaustion per game on average, because I'm learning something new. So for those who are trying to learn this, don't be discouraged by your progress. An exhausted brain is one that is thinking and learning. *Day 5: First win* The camera control is not holding me back anymore. It is mostly piloted subconsciously now, with micro-taps like king nidhogg does. My fingers feel 50% more comfortable than yesterday on those number keys, and I was able to lane pretty decently. In fact, I found the flash key just in time to flash an evelynn ult! Things are looking great. I like that I don't have to flick my mouse everywhere to look and instead have my camera be controlled another way. I still have the mouse one enabled, so I can use them both in tandem! *Final Thoughts:* I'm actually more of a casual player than I thought, so I feel like I should end this report here. League is like something I'd enjoy like an itch once in a while. I can't offer any concrete insights on these key-bindings, but I have decided to keep them since they're not impacting my gameplay negatively anyway. Who knows? Maybe I'll reach the higher skill ceiling one day. I do believe that if you have already spent a lot of time on this game, but are still low elo like me, but don't play like 200+ solo queue games a season and grind almost every day, then switching your keybindings isn't worth it. During the learning process, I felt a lot more things stacking in my mind subconsciously. I struggled to even learn to track jungle outside of focusing on trading in lane, and these keybindings just add a lot more unnecessary things to think about when I can just work on the other glaring weaknesses I have with my fundamentals. That said, the extra subconscious stack can be reduced over time as king nidhogg said, and currently, it doesn't negatively affect my gameplay as much. It's going to take months, because I don't play much, to get used to this, but everything should go back to normal, and maybe with better awareness with the extra camera control option. If you're new though, it may even be easier to get used to these keybindings. So I can definitely recommend these keybindings as an extra option to keep their mind open. A better recommendation though... is to uninstall before it's too late. There are better games and entertainment methods out there, trust me.
Some questions and elaborations if you could answer (love the vid btw) - 1) What champs do you main? - I think this is an important part of the discussion because some require different mechanics/mehcanical skills. You said that Vlad kinda sucked to play with your set up, and Yasuo/Zeri could be hard. While a majority are more simple to play/play style/play pattern. I think on Nemesis's side you have to be able to play such a diverse set of champs that you are able to play, and you would have to stick the same keybinds for X amount of champions. And on your side, solo queue where you can OTP, I think that you can master the camera movement in tandom with 1-5 champ playstlye. 2) Do you hands get cramped or does it feel like you are condensing your inputs in such a small area (imagining top left are for WASD)? - I think another important part is the physical keyboard you use. Sadly, I play on a macbook laptop, and just imagining playing WASD wouldnt work for me ebcasue my keyboard is already small enough. That said with a bigger actual keybaord I still think WASD cramps all the inputs into the top left area. QWER setup only cramps the pointer finger (E-R-D-F + miscellaneous buttons ie taunt vision etc). (Also want to add that I have lockscreen toggle(re-center hopefully yall understand) on mouse scroll button and an item button + ping wheel on my mouse side button) (razor Athena) ( just want to add I feel like you only buy one actiable item this season. I barely buy stopwatch anymore because of the changes, and for ad champs you can only get 1 hydra item, the only one I could see is support with multiple actvatble item) 3) Can you really compare a pro trying it vs starting from the ground up? - I dont think its realistic or logical to have pro's try WASD. They would have to give up a month to try it, meaning halting/ruining practice time for thier games. This halts their muscle memory, and could potentially not get anything in return, to be fair they could improve. - I think the test theory is have more players start with WASD instead of QWER that way we can better gauge the situation. I think its way easier to create a way to play from years of playing (I think you said you used this since you were 12-13? could be wrong) that it is to uproot a play style and try to emulate and eventually assimlate. To add on this point, I just watched another youtuber (He was playing kayn and had a poro icon I think) and he used his arrow keys to move his camera, and developed that playstyle for over years. (hopefully this made sense this part to me was the worse written thing) 4) What is better for improvement from a solo queue perspective/"low elo", learning WASD or furthering fundamentals? - First I dont want to say that you cant do both at the same time. I think that 99% of players even stray from the default keybinds (D/F flash swapping doesnt count). I think nemesis said that he could coach someone and they would get better throguh funemntals (cs, mechanics, map pressure, etc.) But to me adding the step of WASD prolongs imporvement and since there really isnt any data behind WASD, you dont now the ROI. I think the later half of the video strayed to more about streamers philosophy, which I could write an entire essay about each point/segments. But to boil it down I think your being a little optimistic about how things should be. Like while that is coming from a good space, but that is just not reality. this part of the conversation got more emotional and fishing for strawman arguments, hypotheticals, and bad faith debating. People have to remeber that beliefs dont require evidence. Overall I think this is a very nuanced conversation that heavily depends on your preferences. And while I probably wont try WASD, I think I understand your backround and reasoning. I see the passion for the game inside both of you. I also dont think you should be too harsh on yourself on your content. You are make good content! Good luck on the rift. (sorry if this was poorly written especailly at the end finshed this at 4 am)
both sides are correct. this comes down to personal preference. If you find it easier to use wasd to move your camera, it MAY allow you to be more accurate with your mouse. However you play, as long as you can accurately and quickly respond to a threat, input, action trigger it doesnt matter.
I highly encourage people to give WASD a try and not give up after 30 minutes or a day(Nemesis too bc you def cant know without trying), I’m a master player I tried it out for fun and told myself I’d give it a week, my camera control hasn’t gotten a lot better (if at all), was already solid, but by lowering my sensitivity and only moving my mouse to where it needs to be (not the edge of the screen) I have better, more accurate movement and aim.
Timestampping (If not finished im still rewatching) 00:00 Intro 00:03 Topic 1: Understanding the Points 00:25 Advantages and Disadvantages (Mouse, keybinds, etc) 36:20 Topic 2:Going over the video and their responses 1:07:30 JJK REFERENCE NO WAY 1:55:35 JJK REFERENCE 2
I see it that the WASD key binds lead to less stress/work for your right hand on the mouse whereas the default screen movement lead to less stress on the left hand and the keys so whichever one you struggle with most key pressing or mouse movement you should use normal or WASD respectively. Ultimately I feel it's impossible to say one is strictly better than the other.
After establishing that WASD camera control is viable the discussion could be mostly simplified to this: Increasing Mouse APM (Aiming and Moving Camera) v.s. increasing Keyboard APM (Casting Abilities and Moving Camera). Now it's easier to see the arguments. For example, with mouse you can adjust DPI/Sens/Mouseweight etc.. to get faster "APM". With keyboard you can adjust keybindings to have the keys be more close to each other to get faster "APM". In this case I think the mouse has more options. Of course there is also the discussion of how much easier or not it is to move you hand faster to different keys v.s. operating the mouse with your hand, but that is hard to prove/more personal. Also on the discussion of being confident vs saying "but maybe I'm wrong" at the end of your conclusion: It can be the case where being confident and wrong gives you a faster response where you can correct yourself. Lets use this discussion as an example. If Nemesis hadn't reacted in aggressive/confident/spectacle way, there might not have been a discussion. The disconnect comes though, when viewers have the "confident + not willing to change their opinion" combo. But aside from that, if you are willing to learn, the benefit of getting a better and faster reaction by being confident, is there.
8:00 in address to Nidhogg's question about flicking. A lot of times in league you are required to make repetitive motions. Forward clicks followed by back clicks and subsequent forward and back clicks are EXTREMELY common when spacing during laning phase and kiting as an ADC. It's not just about being able to flick your mouse quickly ONCE, but rather a series of times and reacting accordingly.
The moba SMITE uses WASD for moving your character and 1234 for spells so sometimes it could be hard to move and cast at the same time. In that game, ADC seems to be the easiest because it kinda becomes a 3rd person shooter game
I used to play by dragging my mouse on edges to move the camera, yes you need 1600+ DPI to do consistently and it's bad for micro precision. But then i binded drag mouse on mouse 5 button (side button). It allowed me to lower DPI to 1200 which is somewhat slow for this game. But one of best benefits is control. While you have to re-center mouse constantly when pushing to edged by using drag mouse it is getting centered by itself, you drag and mouse somewhat lags behind basically it always moves to center. I tap space to re-center it on me when i am scanning the map for roaming and random multiple angle teamfights where i need to care about getting flanked and at same time teamfight. I feel like WASD would be slower when multiple angles are at stake Basically you can drag your camera 1.5 screens away in 0.2 seconds with precision as well. You don't need to drag it further and is sufficient for combat. if you want to look around the map you can click on minimap or use F keys. Saving time there won't be the issue but for these jungle combat scenarios i think it's better then mouse scroll and faster than any keyboard camera control. I could upload video of me doing it in practice tool. I think this is best hybrid method for ranged champions. Biggest factor why people don't play with WASD is built muscle memory. Your gameplay will improve by studying fundementals and having decent settings. Overall i think camera control with mouse is superior at peak level. With higher DPI you can flick to the map faster and thus scan multiple areas at once, WASD player can't do that as fast and where every timing matters at highest level saving 0.5 seconds of hesitation will make or break a play for sure. But average player playing proficiently with any method can climb for sure.
I find this development interesting as a progression of a ~15 year old game. I know Nidhogg has been using these bindings for a long time; but I can imagine that, in 2009, many league players interacted w the game mechanically different than our best players do today. Fans of other games that have maintained a competitive environment for long periods of time can probably relate to the idea of interactive mechanical progression -I like to think of Smash bros. Melee. Melee is a game that, originally, was only accessible through a fixed button layout on a single type of controller -today we have many different controller options (B0XX, keyboard, GC & Phob) with the ability to change bindings. Likeminded players who were all interested in anatomizing and optimizing the game that they loved were the progenitors of the game we see being played today. I think it’s important that Nidhogg has platformed something similar and, equally as important, allowed for a forum to discuss this openly. I would like to see the history of this develop with League in its own way as well! 12 yr old Faker of today may be a WASD demon😂
Found that using DXCV or FXCV (or both since you can double bind) makes it so you can use your thumb for camera while still having your 4 fingers on abilities. Works well for me because i got used to using spacebar to center camera on champion, so having the thumb controlling camera feels intuitive !
The therapy session part of the video was so good man I swear I did not expect it to go into that direction. I would love to see you bootcamp in eu someday and you 2 play together B)
Bro league players going deep into different topics it's a good formula for starting a (podcast?), it was very entertaining seeing you both sharing thoughts respectfully and actually changing your opinions once you were presented some good arguments.
Nidhogg, have you tried to play with drag scroll camera (perhaps mouse button drag scroll checked)? It works very well for me as a low dpi player. I can keep my cursor close to my champion while also having pretty precise camera movement. No need to drag cursor all the way to the edge of the screen.
I enjoyed this video a lot actually. Good civil discussion. I would love to see people trying to experiment with different setups and give it a good amount of time, like a week. I have started myself and it feels weird, but I will see if it is actually do something to my way of playing the game. Was and still am sceptical, but without trying things that COULD be good, with no samplesize to look at i dont think you can discover other things that ARE better.
Yooo it actually happened! For some reason your conversation ended up more comedic than educational for me 😂 Started debate with league nerding and ended with life morals. Also the topic about morals and doing stuff for others reminded of a vid I saw recently of how in some cultures like in China, people are taught to yield to others as a "sign of respect" if they are older, and a "sign of modesty" if they are younger than you. There's a parable you may have heard of that teaches this regarding some brothers sharing pears.
Glad to see you two sit down and discuss this, but I was kinda disappointed that Nemesis was so resistant to see things from another perspective or engage with hypotheticals.
Not to say that you did this intentionally - but I think you did an amazing job "capitalizing" on the Nemisis reaction. Really good discourse and attention to your original video brings attention to you and your other content!
this kind of videos makes the nerd come out of me (pause) but really i really like this kind of discussion, people who like the topic and just politely discussing their thoughts and nerd it out, i wish i could partake in stuff like this thoo i dont think i have the required skills in league to do so (aka not being high elo) But i really enjoyed this video/talk Also big respect to both of you for such a nice respectable debate/discussion tho at the last quarter or so i have no idea where you guys were going with the discussion
Maybe an interesting comparable for the DPI debate. With guitar playing, many people try and get maximum speed with their fingers to play insanely fast licks with perfect accuracy. The general way people learn to do this is to use a metronome and make sure they keep the accuracy perfect while slowly speed up the tempo (low DPI, stay accurate, slowly increase DPI). However, and I wish I could remember the guys name, there was an article that came out in the 90's about a new fastest guitar player, and the way the guy learned was going as fast as possible until his brain and fingers caught up (high DPI, keep practicing until your accuracy becomes good at that level). What generally works has created many great players, but you can go straight for learning high DPI, you will just have more growing pains until you get your accuracy up.
It's not that accurate of an example. Here's a question: many people think I have a high sensitivity when they watch me play CS for example, how do you think that's possible when in reality I use a pretty low sens?
@@TunaIRL Could be many things. Either your sensitivity isn't that low if you're actually pulling off screen wide flicks that surprise people, or people don't know what your sensitivity is. Someone's perception of your DPI doesn't actually change your DPI. The other possibility is just that you've mastered having to shoot your arm out to actually get to one end or the other of your screen, which makes me think you're closer to the guitarist that goes fast and then suddenly plays more accurately, but not always consistently until you've mastered it. One way or the other I don't think it completely disproves the similarities in the way people learn movement in video games.
@@PlayaGuitar The point is that you don't need a high sensitivity to move your mouse fast. You can also move your hand fast. I'm just able to move my hand really fast and accurately from years of training. Just like any player with low sensitivity. This is why low sensitivity is generally preferred because there is always room to be more accurate and faster. Too inaccurate? Lower sens. Too slow movement? Move your hand faster. Just like a guitarist moves their fingers and arm faster the better and more comfortable they are at playing. This requires dexterity though, which is also trainable. Increasing your speed of mouse movement is not just dependent on DPI, which is your point in your example. ("For a guitar player to go fast they would be increasing their DPI" is not exactly an accurate statement since they're actually increasing their dexterity, not the "sensitivity" of the guitar.) A more apt comparison could be a violin vs a cello. A violin being high DPI and a cello being low DPI. Because of the difference in the length of the neck, the notes on a cello are much easier to hit. If it wasn't for the physical limitations of a cello like the weight of the bow and strings, it could also be played faster and while keeping a higher accuracy. The laws of physics just don't allow it. With a mouse however, they aren't considered since you can increase your sensitivity, without affecting the weight of the mouse.
@@TunaIRL I guess I just saw it as one way is more common, as in, general population would do it X way, but that you could do it in Y way, with higher DPI practice, but it is less common and probably makes the growing pains higher. You may be right that a violin cello comparison is overall better because there are sometimes more variables, like you learning to brute force with arm and wrist instead of just wrist, or playing on top of the guitar like Jeff Healy, or using tapping, etc. I guess my next questions would be, would you consider yourself just an advanced low DPI player and therefore belonging to that group, or something else entirely? Do you think a higher DPI player could still outspeed you, or at least do it more efficiently? And would you recommend using your technique to learn CS accuracy, or something else?
@@PlayaGuitar I'm not sure what you mean with the first part. I don't consider myself an "advanced" anything. There is still preference to this and also specific game needs. For slow paced fps games like cs or valorant I'll use an eDPI of 800. For faster games like overwatch I'll use 1600. League doesn't have a nice way to calculate eDPI but I use 1600 DPI on desktop with around 60 in-game. For league it's about average but I could bring it down if I got used to moving the camera with keys. The dexterity part is also a much bigger part in league because you're constantly doing a lot of back and forth movements. This can be helped with both more efficient clicks (closer to your character -> less distance to move the mouse) and camera control in general. Can someone using a higher sens "outspeed me" if all else is equal? In pure mouse move speed, of course. Does that mean they can hit more heashots, skillshots or have more accurate clicks? Don't think so. It's not really a technique and more just a way of thinking. It's also heavily influenced by what your preferences are and they are hard to break even if something else is optimal. My logic for CS was simple; I only ever need to turn around a 180 degrees at max so I found a sens where I could do that comfortably with as slow a sens as possible. For League there is no such logical measure even. It's always just gonna be however fast you're used to moving your mouse on your desktop which is why I think people don't think about it too much.
I think a combination of both is great. I've been struggling on unlocking my camera permanently, that leads to missinformation on tf. I can use mouse to do short camera movements having at 0,1 seconds ready my spells and i can do long 4 directional camera movements using wasd and be ready to use spells to, that wasnt posible at ultra high accuaracy with the mouse. But as Nemesis says i think that camera on champ is important thats why i simply use mouse thumb button
This whole sequence of events reminds me of how I used to move my camera with the arrow keys for years when I started league. Everything else was standard binds, I just got super fast at moving my hand back and forth. I didn't even realize you could move the camera with the mouse back then. I eventually swapped to standard mouse camera movement, but i got to high diamond even with that setup. Anything can work if you get comfortable enough with it! Im attually really curious about trying your keybindings, i think i might really like them. Im a bit scared of messing with my muscle memory after playing this long though
edit: not going through comments anymore, responded to a ton so far. just gonna let the video sit. too much brain rot imna go play starcraft
big shoutout to nemesis for this conversation - ua-cam.com/users/Nemesis_lol, www.twitch.tv/lol_nemesis
i originally wasnt going to record the chat but my vod didnt track audio for my response so we just did it live instead
Always enjoyed nemesis content, can tell as the chat goes on his first reply was very bold and seemed set in stone then as it went into more depth he explains that’s not how he meant it exactly lol. Possibly was just from English not being his main language so configuring wording and sentences confused him somewhat.
Nice job on the discussion though. Even though I have no intention on trying those bindings still found myself watching the whole video as I know you always explain things properly and honest.
Hope you’re doing well and hope we get to see you showing nemesis or the person he refers you too seeing the WASD set up.
Hey, at least both agree on holding the convo in the first place. Progress amirite 😂😂😂
yeah a lot of people are a ton more pressed about this than i or nemesis ever were. crazy how people insert themselves into this shit and get personally invested in stuff they have no part in. glad we could both have a chat and get to know each others' perspectives. still so crazy that some viewers talk in the way they do without any education/social skills to back it up
@@KingNidhoggyeah just getting worse and worse everything’s taken so seriously or purposely taken the wrong way to cause drama just for the sake of shit talking someone
Is there any way you can post like a handcam inclusive video of how you play with wasd controls cause like nemesis I imagine people would appreciate a visual aid
Only league players would have a 2 hour discussion about different ways to move your camera in a video game
ads at 30/60/90 minutes
Actually like any competitive game with camera controls would do this
@@KingNidhogg keep hustling. You guys’ll be rich and retired by 30 while these haters still be slavin.
holy, iwas sure it will be like 10-20 mins xD any tl;dr?
no just dont form an opinion unless you're willing to watch the whole thing. bare minimum for an intelligent person - not attacking u just making sure to say this for anyone who is thinking of typing shit@@PinkeySuavo
When nemesis said "it's nemesin' time" and nemesi'd all over the screen I almost started crying. Crazy drama!!
I honestly love seeing a civil argument, where no one is getting emotional (hopefully). It's so refreshing.
yeah no emotional outbursts
I don’t expect either of them to get emotional during game, let alone this
ya nice and sadly rare to see
@@KingNidhogg i would love to see you have these long discussions with more people, not only about league, like you had this discussion at the end about respect, it was nice listening to that
nidhogg what is this thumbnail
the best
sensationalization
got me to click right away instead of saving the vid for later that’s for sure
@@KingNidhogg you mean sensualization? becaust that thumbnail is looking hot af
*blush*@@MovieYellow19
this is a perfect 2am watch
eu gang rise up
Now I need reaction of both nemesis and king nidhogg to this video, so this series is complete
Greatest trilogy since lord of the rings
I'm rewatching it right now. Still as good as I can remember
Thanks for organizing and having this discussion!
i genuinely appreciate these kinds of comments, hope you enjoyed
loved the video, great discussion. nidhoggs little smiles whenever some response to a question was prepared beforehand really threw me back to highschool philosophy classes. nice to see nemesis seeming way more understanding than in his streamed reaction. banger video nidhogg
Well this environment is a lot more welcoming to a discussion. Whilst watching a video there's not back and forth. Of course this environment isn't enough alone but luckily we got two adults. Most likely due to the fact that they are long time players and they had to adapt be open minded and learning new things about the game and that is how they stayed challenger.
When Nemesis said "You suck at league of legends and should quit forever" I almost started crying. Crazy drama!!
stop labelling any disagreement between two people as drama
the guy is making a joke, nemesis never actually said this. he did, however, say that jarvan is weak and should be buffed@@WumaoAnnihilator
i dont know how i didnt pick up on that...mb
@@KingNidhogg Pretty sure you misheard him say “nerf phase rush jarvan”
You might have the Tism @@WumaoAnnihilator
im performing a stainless steel fret level on my guitar while watching this. thank you so much for giving me 2 hours of actually good discussion and podcast style back and forths to make this entertaining for me.
I truly appreciate that you both are able to talk about this and not make it personal (or emotional) and have been enjoying so far just wanted to show my respect.
4:01
Nemesis: "No one's going to watch a 1-hour video"
Nope, I want to see a 2-hour video.
"A child can't combo katarina's abilities properly, what did he do to earn your respect?" might be one of my favorite quotes from this amazing video.
also you genuinely seem like such an amazing person to have these kinds of debates with
locked cam best cam obviously high elo fools could never understand
high elo players clearly hate the game and dont have fun. the best setup is the one that keeps you from being high elo
the answer all along was the friends we made or something idk what the meme is.
lock the gooning in am i doing this right? yall make new shit up all the time
@@KingNidhoggyou totally mogged him here big bro, have you been looksmaxxing? lowkey I can tell you've been watching a LOT of skibidi toilet and adin ross frfr, this video is BUSSIN
i think xiaochaomeng(multi time rank 1 toplaner china superserver with insanely high champ pool) plays on locked cam
@@junsoopark228 the funniest fucking thing ive ever heard is canyon supposedly plays with locked screen
I’m still over here fighting that Flash is supposed to be on F and you telling me WASD is good 😳
F is for Flash
flash goes on Ñ
Flash on D because it’s D for dash. Ignite on F because F for fire
@@AlphaTwins flash on f for flash
Ignite of D for die
@@bepo5650this makes no sense
does this also apply to gooning
only with a plug in
@@KingNidhogg instructions unclear, in hospital
eat the hospital@@jacobious1537
i havent finished the video yet, but i really appreciate your patience when a misunderstanding came up and you tried to resolve it, so many times i already imagined the conversation to take a turn for the worse but you were able to stir it back. I hope more videos like this are being produced, either by you or other content creators. cause it just puts the focus on the education/knowledge part and not on who was right or wrong. It makes the increase of understanding for both parties the center of the discussion
man this video was such a good watch, the thing I love the most seeing are potential hostile interactions being resolved like this in such a professional way. Especially in a community where discourse often involves threats. Good shit man 👍keep it up
Dude this was such an amazing conversation! Its such a breath of fresh air to have a discussion like this! Awesome!
this is so cool... you and nemesis are two of my favorite players and it would be interesting to hear both perspectives, cant wait to finish watching this at home later
Thats actually a hilarious turn of events lol
I didn't see it coming, but I dig it 100%
This was such a treat to watch, 2 intelligent people having a civil discussion about something they are passionate about without getting emotional.
Your patience throughout the conversation is admirable. I strive to be more like that
Thank you for the podcast type video
I loved this entire conversation, great video! Thanks for taking the time to construct good talking points
Damn. Listening to you two was kinda wholesome. I appreciate your way of approaching other humans and get to know them if you disagree and strive for understanding and being understood. Also working towards an environment with more love & respect for one another.
Watching this in Germany so it's 2:30 am rn
You're an awesome human being mister Nidhogg!
Can't believe I was able to flawlessly listen to this conversation because it's actually quite educational, starting off into optimum gameplay and open mindedness and both were able to come to an end on a happy agreement!
after watching these full 2 hours i really loved watching this and i feel like u are a really good person to talk too and would love to understand ur way of thinking more
It was really interesting to listen to both of you and see the different view. Because english isnt Nemesis' primary language it sometimes felt like he didnt really understand what you were trying to say because of the way you structured your sentence. At least thats what it felt like to me.
yeah but im not going to patronize him and speak to him like a child - the couple times where he told me he didnt understand i would rephrase but otherwise i just spoke normally.
@@KingNidhogg Yea that is true and fair tbh haha
Thanks for organizing this video, it's very refreshing and unique, especially in this environment of somewhat stale league content on UA-cam. I respect Nemesis a lot as a skilled player so seeing you guys talk about this topic is a super cool situation. I do have to say though, it's pretty obvious that Nemesis is not used to this type of discussion. He seemed extremely uncomfortable whenever he had to 'give up' a point or argument, as if he thought he was 'losing' instead of just sharing opinions and counterarguments. I appreciate you keeping this very civil, I could see how you got slightly frustrated at his occasional misinterpretations/misunderstandings.
i think it's maybe a language barrier of him not being able to express himself perfectly in his native tongue - that sort of frustration can be interpreted as an unwillingness to concede. it could also be a time investment thing although this is less likely as he seemed to be down to talk for a long time. i prodded a couple times just in case he felt like i was holding his time too much as well.
@@KingNidhogg language barrier definitely making an impact, he even mentions this. I should’ve mentioned it in my initial comment. The discussion overall gave me a greater understanding on efficient keyboard use in the gaming space overall and how it definitely has major room to grow in general. I remember first having this train of thought on the release of Valorant and seeing skilled players with strange binds, even moving their movement keys from WASD to things like TFGH so their ability keys were more centred. Thanks again for this video Nid, I’m almost done with it.
I don’t think he was “unwilling to concede”, since he has had this type of discussions before for even longer with LS, and other pros. Even when he was “wrong” he took it well and reconsidered, if this is your first time watching nemesis discuss something like this I could see how it be taken that way especially since English isn’t his native. However, even in this video I wouldn’t go as far to say he was “extremely uncomfortable” that’s kind of just grasping for straws or trying to analyse things in his behavior that’s just quite frankly not there
i said it could be interpreted as him being "unwilling to concede" not that he was@@wchye9734
a lot of education gaps in my comments but it's good to clean up the community. it should honestly be a human right to be protected against uneducated kids' opinions on the internet. just decays my brain reading some of this shit.
Interesting and good arguments from both! I rly liked to know the opinion of nemesis on this. It seems rly hard to learn, but as a Osu mania player i think people really underestimate how much you can adapt and react to so many inputs on keyboard (and fast)
Impressed by how many different topics Nemesis was willing to discuss, you guys should start a podcast
Lol
@@MrRichi251 great idea! A lol podcast!
I don't want to sound over dramatic, but this was amazing to listen to!
I feel as though critical analysis in the League of Legends scene is plentiful, but it's very rare to find civil and calm discussions about specific subjects on the game. I would like to see more things like this if it is possible!
I enjoyed you coming together to have a talk, as a person who wasnt really invested in the keybind topic I'm glad I stuck around for the latter half.
such a good discussion, rly so respectful❤
bro imma put this as a morning podcast at my coffee shop, damn, the amount of chill
Pushing buttons is always more accurate and efficient than doing motions. I think its just that simple.
It is NOT that simple. In theory, you could play league mouseless;
by default, the mouse cursor rests in the middle of your screen. You could distribute abilities and click keys entirely on your keyboard and play with two hands on keyboard.
For example, you could use WASD keys for camera movement and KL keys for left and right click. As cool as this seems in theory, and I would love to see someone do a challenge where they try to play the game this way, it's obviously not a good way to play, nor more accurate than using mouse. Like, imagine trying to use that to land a prediction Hwei QW on your lane opponent running away while dodging the enemy Lee Sin Q that came to bail your opponent out.
😶
I love the dedication to excellence.
Now THIS is the type of content we've needed in the League scene
been using wasd binds for about 2 weeks now and slowly seeing my accuracy and mechanical combos come out way more efficiently
Just watched/listened to the entire video while playing RoR2, and it was very interesting! I personally swapped to WASD and even if I don't play ranked it was something fun to try as someone who mainly played locked camera before, my camera control has developed immensely because by forcing myself to use WASD I can crutch on centering my champ, and have gotten decently used to it. To say if I'm better than before mechanically is a bit tough, but I'm sure I would be if I give it a couple weeks or months. Nonetheless, I respect both of you more after being able to listen to you fully give out your reasonings, and I think the conversation reinforced why I enjoy your content more than the average content creator's experience, for lack of a better word. I am a person who enjoys the way you deal with conflict and how you hold your chat or people who argue with you, to a standard that they should be decent human beings in 95% of case scenarios (case-by-case as was said in the video) as it leads to a community that is less toxic and frankly more enjoyable to me. Not to say Nemesis is a streamer that acts this way (I feel as if he is pretty calm most of the time), but streamers such as Tyler1 or Tarzaned, as much as they can be funny or teach good macro/fundamentals, the actual egos and personalities that they create in their very large audience are oftentimes the beginnings of toxicity in games. My idea is that if the toxicity wasn't glorified in the form of the most popular streamers, then the game would be less toxic as a whole (not completely void as that is against human nature). I think that Nemesis should value the action of requesting a respectful course of action from his viewers. Even if say only 50% or even 25% of the people that were going to comment negative things on another video actually listen, that is not only fewer people doing so, but it is a receipt to the person the viewers are attacking that at least nemesis did what he could to prevent that, which would make the other person have a bit of a better feeling towards him. The tone of how he was explaining it was bad was also not great and the fact that he thinks he can be confident enough that it is bad for everyone is strange, especially since it is a video game and not something that would affect the lives of others. I do respect Nemesis for staying for the whole conversation, especially when it got more philosophical. I would be interested to see more long talks like this with other people whether it's friends or other high Elo players on things, I feel like your outlook on life is one not shared by many your age and it makes these conversations interesting. I would also love to see you have Nemesis watch you play a game or if he doesn't feel qualified, maybe find a couple other high Elo players from different backgrounds, like RTS or only league. I think there can be something here in the full optimization of the keyboard, even if this layout isn't it maybe it lead to something else. It was also just really fun to watch :) anyways sorry for the archival level of text, but I really enjoyed this and I hope you have a wonderful day
Love this kind of content. I hope to see more content evaluating game setting and control layouts. I wish more pros talked about it.
I think this is such a fun discussion to have just as a food for thought type of thing. Nidhogg’s keybind and camera control style is super odd and interesting, I can see how it’s efficient, but it takes a very different approach to the game.
I’m a dirty Lock Screen player but not 100% Lock Screen. I unlock very regularly and only lock during combat when everything is on screen. I, like Nidhogg use Y to lock and unlock my camera, therefore I also double-tap it to recenter when unlocked.
I love nemi, his arguments were weak a lot of the time and you did well. When you discussed the center of the keyboard thing i was reminded of my mate who intentionally moved up his keys up a row to have more buttons for his thumb.
if you told me 4ish years ago that you'd be having a conversation/debate with nemesis, i'd have thought you were lying. congrats on making so much progress on this career of yours my dude. incredibly proud of you :)
(i've yet to finish the video but the insights provided are already pretty damn interesting to think about)
Nice showcare of rational argumentation without emotional bias! I admire your 'diplomatic' approach to communication and discussion.
Disclaimer first: I watched all of it
Not sure if I'm reading into it correctly, but to me it seemed like the "saying hello" point caused the whole test of character discussion. I am with you on your ethical perspectives 100% and the logic behind it and I also try hard to be the most morally pleasing person that I can (and want) to be, but in many european cultures it is considered (most!) moral to not "invade" someone's personal space in public. Small Talk between strangers is extremely rare in Switzerland (alpine country, where I'm from), Slovenia, Finland and many other countries. If I for example were to invade someone's personal space, there would always be an acute reason and I would address the fact that I'm invading their space by figure of speech.
But what I've experienced in North America and "tropical" countries is extremely different to what I'm used to. There I noticed people having (from a swiss perspective: "meaningless", in the sense that there would need to be acute meaning to break into someone's space) smalltalk while waiting at a cash register and you would maybe see this on 1 out of 365 days where I'm from. Of course, a hello back is considered to be respectful by almost anyone, and in the right setting (not randomly in public) almost anyone will do it, also where I'm from. But if it were to happen (from a european perspective) at a strange time, most people will definitely not feel bad about not saying it back, because """random""" hellos FEEL like an invasion of privacy. And this negative emotion will more likely occur rather than thinking about how this person who didn't follow the social code feels. For example, the fear of invading personal space supercedes active signs of respect in Switzerand: On public transport, people will almost always ask you if the seat next to you is free (in case someone else you know might join), though from personal experience the answer is "yes" in 99,99999% of cases. And it also happens in contexts where it is 100% obvious nobody will join you, but is is said as a form of respect, beause the alternative would be to assume even someone's POTENTIAL personal space as your own.
My honest feelings when I watched the last segment was: Talking about how someone might feel after not getting a hello back seems very strange for me, and not only for the reason I mentioned, but also that in my cultural experience it would indeed be disrespectful to assume that somebody else has to be responsible for your emotions for something trivial. Of course if we enter contexts with prolonged social interaction, as in work or school, people will sacrifice their personal (emotional) freedom and foster relationships that feel good to talk in. It's very strange from the swiss perspective to even consider instances where someone would feel bad for ingoring someone, because we wouldn't ignore someone if it wasn't their fault in the first place. So "hellos" out of the blue, as Nemesis also put it, are not used, you would say "Excuuuse me, X" or "I'm sorry, X". I liked the video a lot but don't stress too much about small talk, it is not what defines a respectful culture, most evidently the case in the USA, though I know you're from Canada and I've been there and think it's a culture of respect, just with added smalltalk. (but also it's a huge country and distances are really big, so I guess that ups the value of smalltalk considerably.)
wtf
that's interesting because most countries you mentioned that have this hello = invasion of privacy culture i.e. Switzerland, Slovenia, Finland are European 1st world countries that all score highly on the World Happiness Report, so clearly either this culture contributes positively to happiness or it doesn't but is also not a big deal. This is quite shocking to me as even growing up as an introvert, I have never found responding to hellos difficult, invasive or any description that makes it feel like a big deal, and guess what - I live in a hot country, which brings me to my point.
I don't really wanna stop at the "this is my culture, you should respect other people's culture" because that is akin to blind patriotism or joining any religion because you resonate with their ideals without considering the truthfulness of their head figure. I think your description of countries as tropical might give an explanation to this split in cultures - in hotter countries, people are motivated by the hot weather to voice out, or "act", in a strong way, kinda like the phrase "in the heat of the moment"; in colder countries like the ones you mentioned, if you walk outside, it is usually best to reach the destination asap because it's cold. This gives people more reason to look at a random hello negatively as the cost of stopping and saying hello back is more than that in hotter countries. In other words, colder climates encourage less action than hotter climates. But that's me trying to use extremely generalized thermodynamics to explain how two groups of human resulted in different cultures. Lemme know what you think!
@@rayc7914 I have similar feelings concerning the climate, and I wonder what more there is to it... I would also like to think that in hot countries people can be social at (almost) all times of the year and are more likely to do so in the evening (in case it's too hot during the day). And since in comparison to the countries I listed there is less wealth, socialising is valued more highly.
Concerning your thoughts on hello culture in cold places, I'll take Switzerland as an example. Just like I mentioned in the public transport example, there also exists the contrary. On a hike in the mountains hello culture is very much celebrated. If you wouldn't say hello wholeheartedly on a hike, they would... I can't even imagine it. It feels like it's either a really friendly hello or no hello at all.
And it's not that a hello is looked at negatively, it just doesn't happen (except for rural areas and mostly in passing unless you know the person). And it doesn't happen because nobody wants it to happen xD it's a social contract that celebrates personal space and peace of mind. But if you were to find yourself where I live, it is absolutely possible to respect the social contract and still engafe someone in conversation. If you show that you honestly appreciate their attention and time and ask for help, people will generally be eager to help you because all that matters is that the social contract is valued :D
@@xCLiCH3E You did mention that Switzerland is an alpine country, so I think hiking is a unique case where friendly bonding occurs because of the historical culture. Now I'm not bashing your culture, but I also think that you should accept that hellos are looked at negatively in the countries you mentioned because the point of saying hello is to be friendly or to start a conversation. The precise reason nobody wants to say hello in public in those countries is because saying hello bears negative complications, otherwise it would be encouraged which implies that it's positive, but instead you have a "social contract" to not say hello. If saying hello is good, such contract would not exist. Again I'm not bashing your culture, it's moreso a fact that overall hello is unappreciated in the countries you mentioned and reasonably so. I concede however that the cold-hot theory is mostly baseless and that being over-friendly has its downsides.
@@rayc7914 Let me think about this. "Hellos" are looked at negatively (...) because the point of "hello" is to be friendly or start a conversation.
I cannot agree to this because friendliness or conversation is not disliked by their very nature, hence the hiking/rural area(/+other contexts) example.
"The precise reason nobody wants to say hello in public in those countries is because saying hello bears negative complications, otherwise it would be encouraged which implies that it's positive, but instead you have a "social contract" to not say hello."
The social contract's aim is not to ban the "hello", its aim is to showcase respect. Because I was making the point in regards to countries with social contracts that encourage small talk in many more contexts, and "hello" is a mean to initiate small talk, I formulated it as avoidance to paint a comparitive picture. But if we were to look at Switzerland in a vacuum, the version of "hello" that you know exists differently.
hello(tropical): positive signal to engage in friendly conversation, in contexts a, b, c, d, (e, f)
hello(cold): positive signal to engage in friendly conversation, in contexts e, f
If we defined context "a" to be:
1pm, local restaurant, take away queue
If this is a proper context for hello(tropical), people would feel encouraged to say it because of its positive implications.
Now, if your argument is that "hello" is looked at negatively in X culture because it doesn't satisfy as many contexts (here: "a") in which it is desirable to occur in, I don't think that's reasonable to argue.
In other words, if hello(cold) is defined as positive by the contexts in which it naturally occurs, there is no point in extending its agency because the contexts it would extend into are already valued positively to begin with.
Basically, by this logic, every time there is a hello culture that satisfies more contexts for it to be desirable in, it would "devalue" the "hello" of the other cultures by the % amount of which it occurs more. That's obviously not the case though, except you were to assume that every non-hello context is bearing negative emotion.
Actually, just speaking very subjectively, if I had to, I'd argue the opposite, though I don't think it makes sense either.
By following the logic of "small talk supremacy", you are bound to misinterpret the contexts in cultures in which other forms of respect have a leading role and be inclined to view it in a negative sense. If I followed the logic of "small talk inferiority" I would be inclined to misinterpret the contexts in which the positive emotion of "hello" lives, leaving me with a negative emotion where a good one would naturally be.
I hope that helps or call me out if I messed something up ^^
S/o Nemesis for participating and defending/clarifying his positions -he represents a lot of players’ opinions
The prevailing attitudes of other content creators would cause them to be dismissive towards a person that spoke about their work in the way Nemesis did initially. Or worse, escalate, make it into drama content etc. Your humility in your willingness to consider that what they are saying may still have merit, even if you don’t agree, is refreshing. The world desperately needs more people willing to put in the work to display these qualities.
I’m glad that Nemesis wasn’t actually as emphatically against your video as he initially appeared to be and was also sensationalizing/too spent from streaming to explain his reasoning at the time. It must be very difficult to strike that balance between sensationalism that works with media and informative, soundly structured content with the time you have to make your points.
I recall LS talking about one of the main reasons for something being considered “good” in pro/high level league were basically “the pros in x region do this and they’ve been performing well, so it’s good,” and I think he used the phrase “an appeal to authority” to describe this thinking.
One thing that did bug me about all of this is that it felt like Nemesis was appealing to authority there when he was talking about Korean pros and mouse movement for camera control. They probably us it because it’s similar to what they learned the game on and have practiced and iterated the most with but that doesn’t mean it’s the best, and like any layout it has its own issues and benefits.
A good analogy that comes to mind is how QWERTY keyboards have become sort of the ‘default’ layout in most places, because that’s just a layout someone made with typewriters that became popularized, so newer technology made it very similar or the same so the skill could be transferable. But it’s not really considered “optimal” for ergonomics and typing speed really. You can use it and not experience wrist problems, or achieve very high proficiency with it, but alternatives exist for marginal to greatly increased extents in avoiding pain, increasing speed and accuracy, etc. like stenography keyboards and ERGO grid layouts. Just because those layouts are different and take an investment to become proficient with doesn’t mean they don’t have merits, and just because something is familiar doesn’t make it the best.
Very good point about QWERTY to illustrate the crowd mentality issue, so to speak.
I think what I find even more persuasive is the fighting game argument. In fighting games such as Tekken your character movement is bound to the left stick on your controller. The control method is analogue yet the movement is binary (you either move or you don't). So 99% of pros use a fightstick for better control, speed and tactile feedback. However, there are alternatives such as the hitbox or mixbox which use buttons for character movement. Controversial at first, they proved to be quite effective in the right hands.
im really doubtful that nemesis was meaning to appeal to authority as hard as it sounded. in that segment he said he was having problems understanding. also he was good friends with ls for a year+. obv he could actually think that mouse movement is better because the best players do it but i dont think that would be his main argument.
i mostly treat it as him pointing out as a statistic. king nidhogg gave good counter arguments why that shouldnt be a siginifact part of the argument and i agree. just felt like nemesis wouldnt use a popularity fallacy too intentionally, rather this situation being: "him not amazingly experienced in debates"
Love this kind of content, wish more of this was made in the high elo and streamer league community in general
The small grin at 12:25 when you already addressed his point (not being able to use abilities while moving your camera) in a previous video is so funny. It really does show the thought that you put into this before hand. Keep up the great work!
brings me back to school debates when i prepped for the exact question the other side is throwing at me lmao. the point is to have a good discussion though not score points in a debate. cant help but enjoy it though haha
he was so terrible at arguing classic american.. alwso mocked nemesis alot, which is ironic since nemesis is way better, and have achived alot of more within league of legends. but W:E fanboy
@@MichealJacksonsShoes dickride more
wait is this a joke or is this your tiny brain on display@@MichealJacksonsShoes
@@MichealJacksonsShoes both sides used arguments, which is more than I could say for you.
This is an insane conversation, I just wished there were in-game examples as you guys discussed. That would be giga unbalanced.
_'Wow, did I really listen to more than an hour of this discussion/debate already?.... Might as well~'_
Yasuo/Yone main here, going in.
*Background:* Uses spacebar to center camera. (Never relied on fully locking camera)
*Rank:* Emerald IV Peak NA, Semi-Casual Player. (Max 100 games in solo queue per season)
*Objectives:*
- Satisfy my interest/curiosity on how this will go.
- Get my brain to actively think about my camera placement during team fights.
- Exercise my brain by changing my habits and learning new things.
>>> Note: I take days of breaks between playing league, so there won't be updates every day.
*Day 1: Initial observations*
Feels a bit weird moving my hands up to the number keys, but other than that, everything feels just like before (it does feel like [WASD] is _taking_ away keyboard space... it actually feels like it's opening up a lot more options!). I'm still mapping out my other keys (will specify on day 2 on what I settled on). In regard to camera control, my mouse can still pan the camera, so it'll serve great as training wheels as I get used to everything. It feels weird having space bar be attack move and not having something to center my camera, but I can see how this binding, once I get used to it, can marginally improve my kiting because it feels more natural than pressing [A] from [QWER]. I'm also switching the awkward [`/~] ([tilda key] to the left of [1]) for toggle champions only (it was awkward moving my pinky up then left into such a small key...) and I'm excited to see if it makes it easier to dive enemies.
P.S. - Don't worry, all experimentation and the training phase will be done in a custom 1 v 5 Beg./Inter. Bots game. I'm not leaving until I can Keyblade into 5 of them with ease to get Pentakills.
Day 1 Update: ... Changing all my keybinds so suddenly feels a bit too much for my brain. I sometimes lag for 500 milliseconds in my brain to dismiss moving the camera with my mouse and instead moving it with [WASD]. However, I can see how a fast mouse would become unnecessary with how much control I have over my camera now. I'm still contemplating how high I should have my camera movement sensitivity on. I have it on 20 now. Any insights or tips would be welcome~
Update 2: This scenario is rare in a ranked game, but when chasing bots through a minion wave, I find it hard for my camera to keep up. Maybe it'll get better as I get used to this type of camera control.
Update 3: After getting destroyed by the intermediate bots and not being able to get revenge due to my camera being slower than Yasuo, I was getting discouraged and wanted to revert back to my old settings. But I've decided to go all in, and convinced myself how much of a hassle it would be to reprogram my old keybinds. After another custom game (after taking the entire day to untilt), I found that I was missing some simple muscle memories. Instead of flicking my mouse away from the enemy champion when kiting, I just need to tap some [WASD] keys, and vice versa. I'm also getting used to tapping [WASD] as I dash. It seems that my camera doesn't automatically center on where I teleport... I wonder of there's a setting for that...Anyways, by gaslighting myself to thinking that there's no other choice than to get used to this, I'm making drastic improvements from when I first tried these new setting on just the first day!
*Day 2: Final Keybindings & More Practice*
>>> Note that these are merely personal preference, and may be subject to change.
[QWER]/[DF] --> [1234]/[ER]
Ward: [5]
Level up spells: Alt+Spell (I used to use Shift+[QWER] but Shift+Number Keys felt so awkward in my past games, so I have decided to change it as I'm writing this.)
Self-cast: Shift+Spell
Attack move click: [Space]/Shift+Right Click
Target Champs Only: [Q]
Stop: [`/~] (tilda key)
Items: [6TGFY] (I don't think I'd sell boots on support, so maybe 5 is enough?)
Normal Ping/Caution Ping/Emote/Chat History: [V]/[C]/[X]/[Z]
Advanced Character Stats: Shift+[C]
Camera Move Speed: ~30
Center Camera on Champion: MB3 (Scroll Wheel)
I made sure to stock up on that good snooze to save/organize my learning from yesterday and prepare my brain cells to learn today. Camera Control seems to have improved by 25% from yesterday, but still nowhere close to my old setup yet. My left hand fingers seem a lot less lazy... somehow I'm timing Airblades better? Must be placebo against bots. Funnily enough, my fingers are still reaching towards [D] and [F] for summoners, so I'm going to focus on changing those to [E] and [R].
*Day 3: Subconscious Camera Control Budding*
I'm noticing that I'm starting to subconsciously move the camera with [WASD]. It's like learning a piano piece and getting to know the left hand enough to not have to focus on it.
*Day 4: Initial Games*
I think I'm familiar enough to take my main into normal games now to get real experience to find more tangible learning curves. I lost my first game... but it didn't feel like my camera control was holding me back. In fact, I barely had to think about my camera placement anymore. I just... felt like I was walking on stilts. Sure, it feels like I have a lot more control over the camera, but it feels kinda hard. It has gotten multiple times easier since day 1, but it feels terrible not being able to carry my 1/10 jungler... because I went 9/9 dying 9 times unnecessarily. League is all about minimizing mistakes, so I really need more time to get used to this if I want to start winning games. I've also noticed something these past 4 days of playing league... my brain gets ~50% more exhaustion per game on average, because I'm learning something new. So for those who are trying to learn this, don't be discouraged by your progress. An exhausted brain is one that is thinking and learning.
*Day 5: First win*
The camera control is not holding me back anymore. It is mostly piloted subconsciously now, with micro-taps like king nidhogg does. My fingers feel 50% more comfortable than yesterday on those number keys, and I was able to lane pretty decently. In fact, I found the flash key just in time to flash an evelynn ult! Things are looking great. I like that I don't have to flick my mouse everywhere to look and instead have my camera be controlled another way. I still have the mouse one enabled, so I can use them both in tandem!
*Final Thoughts:*
I'm actually more of a casual player than I thought, so I feel like I should end this report here. League is like something I'd enjoy like an itch once in a while. I can't offer any concrete insights on these key-bindings, but I have decided to keep them since they're not impacting my gameplay negatively anyway. Who knows? Maybe I'll reach the higher skill ceiling one day. I do believe that if you have already spent a lot of time on this game, but are still low elo like me, but don't play like 200+ solo queue games a season and grind almost every day, then switching your keybindings isn't worth it. During the learning process, I felt a lot more things stacking in my mind subconsciously. I struggled to even learn to track jungle outside of focusing on trading in lane, and these keybindings just add a lot more unnecessary things to think about when I can just work on the other glaring weaknesses I have with my fundamentals. That said, the extra subconscious stack can be reduced over time as king nidhogg said, and currently, it doesn't negatively affect my gameplay as much. It's going to take months, because I don't play much, to get used to this, but everything should go back to normal, and maybe with better awareness with the extra camera control option. If you're new though, it may even be easier to get used to these keybindings. So I can definitely recommend these keybindings as an extra option to keep their mind open. A better recommendation though... is to uninstall before it's too late. There are better games and entertainment methods out there, trust me.
Commenting so I get notifs
@@skyrocket202 I'm joining too
@@SuperGeri001 m too
Huge fucking props to Nemesis for just talking about it. I love when people talk about this game in a way thats interesting
Some questions and elaborations if you could answer (love the vid btw) -
1) What champs do you main?
- I think this is an important part of the discussion because some require different mechanics/mehcanical skills. You said that Vlad kinda sucked to play with your set up, and Yasuo/Zeri could be hard. While a majority are more simple to play/play style/play pattern. I think on Nemesis's side you have to be able to play such a diverse set of champs that you are able to play, and you would have to stick the same keybinds for X amount of champions. And on your side, solo queue where you can OTP, I think that you can master the camera movement in tandom with 1-5 champ playstlye.
2) Do you hands get cramped or does it feel like you are condensing your inputs in such a small area (imagining top left are for WASD)?
- I think another important part is the physical keyboard you use. Sadly, I play on a macbook laptop, and just imagining playing WASD wouldnt work for me ebcasue my keyboard is already small enough. That said with a bigger actual keybaord I still think WASD cramps all the inputs into the top left area. QWER setup only cramps the pointer finger (E-R-D-F + miscellaneous buttons ie taunt vision etc). (Also want to add that I have lockscreen toggle(re-center hopefully yall understand) on mouse scroll button and an item button + ping wheel on my mouse side button) (razor Athena) ( just want to add I feel like you only buy one actiable item this season. I barely buy stopwatch anymore because of the changes, and for ad champs you can only get 1 hydra item, the only one I could see is support with multiple actvatble item)
3) Can you really compare a pro trying it vs starting from the ground up?
- I dont think its realistic or logical to have pro's try WASD. They would have to give up a month to try it, meaning halting/ruining practice time for thier games. This halts their muscle memory, and could potentially not get anything in return, to be fair they could improve.
- I think the test theory is have more players start with WASD instead of QWER that way we can better gauge the situation. I think its way easier to create a way to play from years of playing (I think you said you used this since you were 12-13? could be wrong) that it is to uproot a play style and try to emulate and eventually assimlate. To add on this point, I just watched another youtuber (He was playing kayn and had a poro icon I think) and he used his arrow keys to move his camera, and developed that playstyle for over years. (hopefully this made sense this part to me was the worse written thing)
4) What is better for improvement from a solo queue perspective/"low elo", learning WASD or furthering fundamentals?
- First I dont want to say that you cant do both at the same time. I think that 99% of players even stray from the default keybinds (D/F flash swapping doesnt count). I think nemesis said that he could coach someone and they would get better throguh funemntals (cs, mechanics, map pressure, etc.) But to me adding the step of WASD prolongs imporvement and since there really isnt any data behind WASD, you dont now the ROI.
I think the later half of the video strayed to more about streamers philosophy, which I could write an entire essay about each point/segments. But to boil it down I think your being a little optimistic about how things should be. Like while that is coming from a good space, but that is just not reality. this part of the conversation got more emotional and fishing for strawman arguments, hypotheticals, and bad faith debating. People have to remeber that beliefs dont require evidence.
Overall I think this is a very nuanced conversation that heavily depends on your preferences. And while I probably wont try WASD, I think I understand your backround and reasoning. I see the passion for the game inside both of you. I also dont think you should be too harsh on yourself on your content. You are make good content! Good luck on the rift.
(sorry if this was poorly written especailly at the end finshed this at 4 am)
both sides are correct. this comes down to personal preference. If you find it easier to use wasd to move your camera, it MAY allow you to be more accurate with your mouse. However you play, as long as you can accurately and quickly respond to a threat, input, action trigger it doesnt matter.
- What if people don't even try it because of your words?
- That was my goal 💀
literally any comment that is made within the first 2 hours of this video is probably going to be worthless lmao get the full context first
first 2 hours being out*
Yeah but i watched it on 20x speed
havent even seen the wasd video yet(didnt know context/been busy) but atp im wondering if itd solve my locked cam issue
My man doesn't even realize that I don't need to watch 2 hours of this video to notice the cute green bow he has on
SHEEESH u right@@cathack8413
I highly encourage people to give WASD a try and not give up after 30 minutes or a day(Nemesis too bc you def cant know without trying), I’m a master player I tried it out for fun and told myself I’d give it a week, my camera control hasn’t gotten a lot better (if at all), was already solid, but by lowering my sensitivity and only moving my mouse to where it needs to be (not the edge of the screen) I have better, more accurate movement and aim.
And I really appreciate this discussion you guys had
thanks for the input, interesting to see someone on the right side of the bell curve putting in the effort to try it.
I think Nidhoggs way of camera control is superior ONLY IF you bind your summoners to your Donkey kong bongos
I used wasd the for the past week and it made me more accurate with my mechanics, feels good.
Timestampping (If not finished im still rewatching)
00:00 Intro
00:03 Topic 1: Understanding the Points
00:25 Advantages and Disadvantages (Mouse, keybinds, etc)
36:20 Topic 2:Going over the video and their responses
1:07:30 JJK REFERENCE NO WAY
1:55:35 JJK REFERENCE 2
XD NAH I DIDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THAT ONE
I see it that the WASD key binds lead to less stress/work for your right hand on the mouse whereas the default screen movement lead to less stress on the left hand and the keys so whichever one you struggle with most key pressing or mouse movement you should use normal or WASD respectively. Ultimately I feel it's impossible to say one is strictly better than the other.
After establishing that WASD camera control is viable the discussion could be mostly simplified to this:
Increasing Mouse APM (Aiming and Moving Camera) v.s. increasing Keyboard APM (Casting Abilities and Moving Camera).
Now it's easier to see the arguments. For example, with mouse you can adjust DPI/Sens/Mouseweight etc.. to get faster "APM". With keyboard you can adjust keybindings to have the keys be more close to each other to get faster "APM". In this case I think the mouse has more options. Of course there is also the discussion of how much easier or not it is to move you hand faster to different keys v.s. operating the mouse with your hand, but that is hard to prove/more personal.
Also on the discussion of being confident vs saying "but maybe I'm wrong" at the end of your conclusion:
It can be the case where being confident and wrong gives you a faster response where you can correct yourself. Lets use this discussion as an example. If Nemesis hadn't reacted in aggressive/confident/spectacle way, there might not have been a discussion. The disconnect comes though, when viewers have the "confident + not willing to change their opinion" combo. But aside from that, if you are willing to learn, the benefit of getting a better and faster reaction by being confident, is there.
i just expected this to be a content farm, turned out to be a genuine and well mannered discussion
8:00 in address to Nidhogg's question about flicking. A lot of times in league you are required to make repetitive motions. Forward clicks followed by back clicks and subsequent forward and back clicks are EXTREMELY common when spacing during laning phase and kiting as an ADC. It's not just about being able to flick your mouse quickly ONCE, but rather a series of times and reacting accordingly.
The moba SMITE uses WASD for moving your character and 1234 for spells so sometimes it could be hard to move and cast at the same time. In that game, ADC seems to be the easiest because it kinda becomes a 3rd person shooter game
I used to play by dragging my mouse on edges to move the camera, yes you need 1600+ DPI to do consistently and it's bad for micro precision.
But then i binded drag mouse on mouse 5 button (side button).
It allowed me to lower DPI to 1200 which is somewhat slow for this game. But one of best benefits is control. While you have to re-center mouse constantly when pushing to edged by using drag mouse it is getting centered by itself, you drag and mouse somewhat lags behind basically it always moves to center.
I tap space to re-center it on me when i am scanning the map for roaming and random multiple angle teamfights where i need to care about getting flanked and at same time teamfight. I feel like WASD would be slower when multiple angles are at stake
Basically you can drag your camera 1.5 screens away in 0.2 seconds with precision as well. You don't need to drag it further and is sufficient for combat. if you want to look around the map you can click on minimap or use F keys. Saving time there won't be the issue but for these jungle combat scenarios i think it's better then mouse scroll and faster than any keyboard camera control.
I could upload video of me doing it in practice tool.
I think this is best hybrid method for ranged champions.
Biggest factor why people don't play with WASD is built muscle memory. Your gameplay will improve by studying fundementals and having decent settings.
Overall i think camera control with mouse is superior at peak level. With higher DPI you can flick to the map faster and thus scan multiple areas at once, WASD player can't do that as fast and where every timing matters at highest level saving 0.5 seconds of hesitation will make or break a play for sure.
But average player playing proficiently with any method can climb for sure.
Excellent video Mr. Hogg
I find this development interesting as a progression of a ~15 year old game. I know Nidhogg has been using these bindings for a long time; but I can imagine that, in 2009, many league players interacted w the game mechanically different than our best players do today. Fans of other games that have maintained a competitive environment for long periods of time can probably relate to the idea of interactive mechanical progression -I like to think of Smash bros. Melee. Melee is a game that, originally, was only accessible through a fixed button layout on a single type of controller -today we have many different controller options (B0XX, keyboard, GC & Phob) with the ability to change bindings. Likeminded players who were all interested in anatomizing and optimizing the game that they loved were the progenitors of the game we see being played today. I think it’s important that Nidhogg has platformed something similar and, equally as important, allowed for a forum to discuss this openly. I would like to see the history of this develop with League in its own way as well! 12 yr old Faker of today may be a WASD demon😂
We need more content like this in the scene.
Found that using DXCV or FXCV (or both since you can double bind) makes it so you can use your thumb for camera while still having your 4 fingers on abilities. Works well for me because i got used to using spacebar to center camera on champion, so having the thumb controlling camera feels intuitive !
The therapy session part of the video was so good man I swear I did not expect it to go into that direction. I would love to see you bootcamp in eu someday and you 2 play together B)
Bro league players going deep into different topics it's a good formula for starting a (podcast?), it was very entertaining seeing you both sharing thoughts respectfully and actually changing your opinions once you were presented some good arguments.
Nidhogg, have you tried to play with drag scroll camera (perhaps mouse button drag scroll checked)? It works very well for me as a low dpi player. I can keep my cursor close to my champion while also having pretty precise camera movement. No need to drag cursor all the way to the edge of the screen.
Exactly, you get responsivness of mouse and speed of camera movement, and accuracy of low DPI
2 absolute sigmas having a discussion. really needed in league
I enjoyed this video a lot actually. Good civil discussion.
I would love to see people trying to experiment with different setups and give it a good amount of time, like a week.
I have started myself and it feels weird, but I will see if it is actually do something to my way of playing the game.
Was and still am sceptical, but without trying things that COULD be good, with no samplesize to look at i dont think you can discover other things that ARE better.
Yooo it actually happened! For some reason your conversation ended up more comedic than educational for me 😂
Started debate with league nerding and ended with life morals. Also the topic about morals and doing stuff for others reminded of a vid I saw recently of how in some cultures like in China, people are taught to yield to others as a "sign of respect" if they are older, and a "sign of modesty" if they are younger than you. There's a parable you may have heard of that teaches this regarding some brothers sharing pears.
You have A+ debating skills. Very well played.
Hes a masterdebater
I use Middle Mouse button to move my camera, I think this could be most efficient no?
I clicked on it before realizing this was two hours on keybinds. People really some hardcore nerds out here.
and you watch us - whats that say about you?
Ty for the zooted thumbnail. Also you looking mad cute with that bow on homie.
At first I thought it was a little frog, but no. They're leaves, so, SO CUTE. 😂❤
Glad to see you two sit down and discuss this, but I was kinda disappointed that Nemesis was so resistant to see things from another perspective or engage with hypotheticals.
Very enjoyable podcast
this gonna be my entire watch for my flight
30 minutes in this shit goes hard
I already said this in the previous video but here my suggestion for you Nidhogg: what if you use a joystick for camera that your left thumb can use.
haha holy shit maybe if it's not conflicting with your keyboard can be good
That actually sounds goated
Damn those mouses with a joystick, thats genius bro xD
How would you map the joystick though? Arrow up/down/left/right?
use some joystick with your foot or tongue and you dont waste any fingers
Not to say that you did this intentionally - but I think you did an amazing job "capitalizing" on the Nemisis reaction. Really good discourse and attention to your original video brings attention to you and your other content!
Great video, i could see Nidhogg being a psychologist
love this crossover sm
this kind of videos makes the nerd come out of me (pause)
but really i really like this kind of discussion, people who like the topic and just politely discussing their thoughts and nerd it out, i wish i could partake in stuff like this thoo i dont think i have the required skills in league to do so (aka not being high elo)
But i really enjoyed this video/talk
Also big respect to both of you for such a nice respectable debate/discussion
tho at the last quarter or so i have no idea where you guys were going with the discussion
Maybe an interesting comparable for the DPI debate. With guitar playing, many people try and get maximum speed with their fingers to play insanely fast licks with perfect accuracy. The general way people learn to do this is to use a metronome and make sure they keep the accuracy perfect while slowly speed up the tempo (low DPI, stay accurate, slowly increase DPI). However, and I wish I could remember the guys name, there was an article that came out in the 90's about a new fastest guitar player, and the way the guy learned was going as fast as possible until his brain and fingers caught up (high DPI, keep practicing until your accuracy becomes good at that level). What generally works has created many great players, but you can go straight for learning high DPI, you will just have more growing pains until you get your accuracy up.
It's not that accurate of an example. Here's a question: many people think I have a high sensitivity when they watch me play CS for example, how do you think that's possible when in reality I use a pretty low sens?
@@TunaIRL Could be many things. Either your sensitivity isn't that low if you're actually pulling off screen wide flicks that surprise people, or people don't know what your sensitivity is. Someone's perception of your DPI doesn't actually change your DPI. The other possibility is just that you've mastered having to shoot your arm out to actually get to one end or the other of your screen, which makes me think you're closer to the guitarist that goes fast and then suddenly plays more accurately, but not always consistently until you've mastered it. One way or the other I don't think it completely disproves the similarities in the way people learn movement in video games.
@@PlayaGuitar The point is that you don't need a high sensitivity to move your mouse fast. You can also move your hand fast. I'm just able to move my hand really fast and accurately from years of training. Just like any player with low sensitivity. This is why low sensitivity is generally preferred because there is always room to be more accurate and faster. Too inaccurate? Lower sens. Too slow movement? Move your hand faster. Just like a guitarist moves their fingers and arm faster the better and more comfortable they are at playing. This requires dexterity though, which is also trainable.
Increasing your speed of mouse movement is not just dependent on DPI, which is your point in your example. ("For a guitar player to go fast they would be increasing their DPI" is not exactly an accurate statement since they're actually increasing their dexterity, not the "sensitivity" of the guitar.)
A more apt comparison could be a violin vs a cello. A violin being high DPI and a cello being low DPI. Because of the difference in the length of the neck, the notes on a cello are much easier to hit. If it wasn't for the physical limitations of a cello like the weight of the bow and strings, it could also be played faster and while keeping a higher accuracy. The laws of physics just don't allow it. With a mouse however, they aren't considered since you can increase your sensitivity, without affecting the weight of the mouse.
@@TunaIRL I guess I just saw it as one way is more common, as in, general population would do it X way, but that you could do it in Y way, with higher DPI practice, but it is less common and probably makes the growing pains higher. You may be right that a violin cello comparison is overall better because there are sometimes more variables, like you learning to brute force with arm and wrist instead of just wrist, or playing on top of the guitar like Jeff Healy, or using tapping, etc.
I guess my next questions would be, would you consider yourself just an advanced low DPI player and therefore belonging to that group, or something else entirely? Do you think a higher DPI player could still outspeed you, or at least do it more efficiently? And would you recommend using your technique to learn CS accuracy, or something else?
@@PlayaGuitar I'm not sure what you mean with the first part. I don't consider myself an "advanced" anything. There is still preference to this and also specific game needs. For slow paced fps games like cs or valorant I'll use an eDPI of 800. For faster games like overwatch I'll use 1600. League doesn't have a nice way to calculate eDPI but I use 1600 DPI on desktop with around 60 in-game.
For league it's about average but I could bring it down if I got used to moving the camera with keys. The dexterity part is also a much bigger part in league because you're constantly doing a lot of back and forth movements. This can be helped with both more efficient clicks (closer to your character -> less distance to move the mouse) and camera control in general.
Can someone using a higher sens "outspeed me" if all else is equal? In pure mouse move speed, of course. Does that mean they can hit more heashots, skillshots or have more accurate clicks? Don't think so.
It's not really a technique and more just a way of thinking. It's also heavily influenced by what your preferences are and they are hard to break even if something else is optimal. My logic for CS was simple; I only ever need to turn around a 180 degrees at max so I found a sens where I could do that comfortably with as slow a sens as possible. For League there is no such logical measure even. It's always just gonna be however fast you're used to moving your mouse on your desktop which is why I think people don't think about it too much.
I think a combination of both is great. I've been struggling on unlocking my camera permanently, that leads to missinformation on tf. I can use mouse to do short camera movements having at 0,1 seconds ready my spells and i can do long 4 directional camera movements using wasd and be ready to use spells to, that wasnt posible at ultra high accuaracy with the mouse. But as Nemesis says i think that camera on champ is important thats why i simply use mouse thumb button
This whole sequence of events reminds me of how I used to move my camera with the arrow keys for years when I started league. Everything else was standard binds, I just got super fast at moving my hand back and forth. I didn't even realize you could move the camera with the mouse back then.
I eventually swapped to standard mouse camera movement, but i got to high diamond even with that setup. Anything can work if you get comfortable enough with it!
Im attually really curious about trying your keybindings, i think i might really like them. Im a bit scared of messing with my muscle memory after playing this long though
Lock screen only gigachads where are you at?
I think Erick would be a great psychologist.
Now i just need a 2 hour arena duo video when its back out
Just finished the whole video and I will be playing my next ranked games with the arrow keys
Really enjoyed this conversation