The biggest convoy disaster of WW2 | Convoy PQ-17
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- Опубліковано 12 лип 2022
- On the 27th of June 1942 convoy PQ-17 departed Iceland for the Soviet Union. Out of 34 merchant ships, only 11 would make it to port. At first, things seemed to be going well for the convoy as they beat off multiple German air attacks with relative ease. But on the 4th of July, everything went wrong. An order arrived from Admiral Sir Dudley Pound, the First Sea Lord himself reading 'Convoy is to scatter'. Fearing an imminent attack from German surface ships like Tirpitz the escort ships fled west while the merchant ships made for the Soviet Union.
But the Tirpitz was nowhere near the convoy, in fact, it was still at its moorings in northern Norway. Instead of saving the convoy from disaster, Admiral Pound's order had doomed PQ-17 to destruction. Over the following week, two-thirds of the convoy were sunk by German aircraft and U-Boats. It was the biggest loss to a single British convoy in the Second World War.
In this video, IWM's Rob Rumble joins us from HMS Belfast in an attempt to uncover what went wrong. Why did Admiral Pound give the order to scatter? What was it like for the sailors and U-Boat crews? And how did the disaster of convoy PQ-17 affect the outcome of the Second World War?
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Roger Hill, Captain if HMS Ledbury - one of the escort destroyers - was so appalled at the Royal Navy abandoning the merchant Navy do PQ-17 that he swore never to do it again, even if it meant breaking orders. It was Hill and Ledbury along with HMS Penn that hauled the crippled Ohio into Valletta a few months later thus saving Malta, the Mediterranean and arguably the whole shebang.
.....and then to prove his point, Capt Hill refused to abandon survivors during PEDESTAL and took HMS Ledbury into the oil fires to rescue them. Frankly speaking, the UK's review of decorations is utterly idiotic because Hill's performance during the whole of PEDESTAL were "in the finest tradition of the naval service" and deserved a well-earned VC.
@@drinksnapple8997 Yeah, totally agree but ‘Phyllis’ was a bad tempered bugger (active service since the Abyssinian Crisis will do that to you I suppose) and he pissed a few people off. The Waimarrama rescue alone should have got him the VC. Paint bubbling on the walls inside the ship!, jeez.
@@drinksnapple8997 Roger Hill received a DSO and a DSC, both well-deserved. However, his actions hardly justified a VC.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 I’ve seen them given for less.
Excellent and valued
comment!
My maternal Grandfather was a Canadian merchant sailor in WW2 and was sunk 3 times by U-boats on Arctic convoy runs from Scotland to Murmansk or Archangel. All 3 times in pitch dark in the middle of the night and with Arctic storms howling. All 3 times he made it up from below deck and into a lifeboat, then through the bodies, debris and burning oil on the surface to “safety” and the hope of rescue, but many, many of his friends didn’t.
He was mentioned twice in dispatches to the King. My Mum has copies of the pages of the London Gazette with his name in them. During one of his his sinkings he carried multiple crew mates up from below deck and into a lifeboat, including his best friend who had had both arms blown off in an explosion after they were hit.
He hated the war and was unapologetic about that. He would have nothing to do with any remembrance of it for the rest of his life.
The one good thing about it was he met my Granny in Edinburgh and came back, married her and settled here when it was over. Otherwise I wouldn’t exist.
He passed when I was a teenager and he didn’t talk to us kids about the war, but I overheard him speaking to my Dad about it a couple of times after a few drinks. The one bit of wisdom he did pass on directly to me and my brothers was while we were on a walk along the beach near where he and my Granny lived.
“Never, ever, ever turn your back on the sea, boys. It’s not your friend and will take you in a second.” I’ve never forgotten that.
This cover's a Convoy of supply ships to Russia "lend lease program" which the British insisted they should command! The disaster, Admiral Pound's order had doomed PQ-17 to destruction. He ordered them to scatter, warships to run away! (Proud moment for the British Navy!) 11 ships made it, out of 34! (My uncle John survived that convoy, but later had a mental breakdown!) Adm. Pound, was dead year and half later, they said, "illness?"
(Between 1939 and 1945, 9,521 merchant mariners lost their lives - a higher proportion than those killed than in any military branch, according to the National World War II Museum.)
23 vessels were lost in PQ17. When Admiral King refused to introduce convoys on the American East Coast after the German declaration of war, over 600 merchant ships were lost to U - Boat attacks in Operation Paukenschlag, and around 5,000 merchant seamen killed.
That, without doubt, was the worst naval decision of WW2.
Retired US merchant seaman here (Engineer). Well said and thank you. US Admiral King's (Shown in this video seated with Adm Pound) decision not to use the convoy system early on led to untold numbers of unnecessary seamen deaths.
@@Mondo762 Thank you. A US historian once told me that Ernie King was unusual in that he seemed to hate everyone and everything.
As far as I can gather, FDR & George Marshall more or less forced him to introduce a convoy system because the major losses, especially of fast tankers needed for the Pacific, was seriously harming the US/Allied war effort.
Of course, once a proper convoy system was introduced, sinkings were reduced almost immediately, and the German campaign on the US East Coast was quickly abandoned.
As a mere foreigner, I have never quite understood why King did not lose his job!
@@dovetonsturdee7033 Kings' TO DO list Nov 41-July 42
Approve Lend Lease of escort carrier and F4 Wildcats to Britain
Escort US troop ships loaded with British soldiers from Canada to South Africa
Loan carriers Wasp and Ranger to Britain
Approve continuation of repair and upgrade of RN warships in US yards under Lend Lease
Continue to escort convoys to Iceland
Bomb Tokyo
Build Naval bases in Northern Ireland
Stop Japan with no help from Britain
Arrange convoys for hundreds of ships along 2,000 miles of US Atlantic coast
Kick doveton sturdees potential grandfather in the nuts repeatedly
@@dovetonsturdee7033 The King Visits British & US Warships (1942)
ua-cam.com/video/VxXTL1-8EdU/v-deo.html
@@dovetonsturdee7033 How many ships were lost on the Channel Dash?
There have been MANY inspections about WWII by historians, scholars, military strategists, politicians, and bureacrats all across the globe. But can we all just take a moment to applaud how good this channel put together all the information into one video? After I got to know this channel, I got a strong interest in history, and now I'm completing my PhD in history, graduating next May!!
Good for you! I'd love to do the same but.... $$$. Fantastic channel!
Congratulations and very good luck for your exams. 👍👍
The merchant seamen were incredibly brave, the one sailing under the "red duster" especially, as they lived I the Fo'castle, which was often damp, on beds of straw and until middle 1941 if the ship was sunk, their pay stopped from that day, if they were lucky and got rescued by the designated rescue boat and spent 2 weeks getting to the nearest port where they could try to sign on another ship, this was unpaid. Also they tended to sign on for one or 2 trips with a particular ship, it wasn't regular work. How do I know this? My Grandfather was one of them.
You can read more of how they lived, worked, fought and in many cases died here. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_merchant_seamen_of_World_War_II
Sorry to make you last in my list of replies Mick but yes. I read The Real Cruel Sea about 10 years back, and I was flabbergasted by how badly the MN suffered in the way you describe, and how the basics like pay stoppages when your boat was sunk were at first deemed normal. Rightly, a lot of this was amended during the course of the war, but I take my hat off to them; they bought the cost of our freedom with their lives.
That was not the only injustice merchant seaman suffered . If they survived shipwreck, but died layer in a lifeboat, they where classed as civilians and therefore did not count as lost on action.officially MN losses where disgracefully under reported.
Again it boils down to how best to use the intelligence at one’s disposal. It might have been more prudent to have sent south a small force to confirm that capital ships were indeed active? Better to risk small losses in order to obtain vital information than to lose practically the whole convoy.
If I remember right Pound was crippled by arthritis, had had a stroke and an in-operable brain tumour that killed him in 1943. Maybe he should have been replaced earlier, but that is easy to say in hindsight!!!
This cover's a Convoy PQ-17 of supply ships to Russia "lend lease program" which the British insisted they should command! The disaster, Admiral Pound's order had doomed PQ-17 to destruction. He ordered them to scatter, warships to run away! (Proud moment for the British Navy!) 11 ships made it, out of 34! (My uncle John survived that convoy, but later had a mental breakdown!) Adm. Pound, was dead year and half later, they said, "illness?"
(Between 1939 and 1945, 9,521 merchant mariners lost their lives - a higher proportion than those killed than in any military branch, according to the National World War II Museum.)
Admiral Pound died from a Brain Tumour. This was probably what warped his judgements where PQ17 was concerned.
There were 78 Russian convoys, involving around 1,400 freighters, of which 85, or 6%, were lost.
PQ 17 wasnt the only screwup SLS 64 in January 1941 19 merchant ships sailing from Sierra Leone West Africa unescorted ! The convoy was to return valuable shipping back from Sierra Leone which had carried cargo for the Free French. Supposedly no escorts, even trawlers or corvette available The ships formed up in a convoy and left for England Unfortunately the heavy cruisier ADMIRAL HIPPER showed up which should not been a surprise as HIPPER had attacked a heavily escorted troop convoy on Christmas 1940 before breaking off when saw strength of escort HIPPER attacked and sank 7 out of the 19 ships, damaged several others and several scattered ships sunk by U Boats
Thank goodness I was named after Dudley Moore! Very interesting, thank you for sharing.
As much as we all love the IWM, you can't analyse the events surrounding Convoy PQ-17 in a 13-minute video. The subject is bigger than that. This film should be seen for what it is - a direction towards more detailed reading and research.
A good summary of the context and events of PQ-17 is given in Jonathan Dimbleby's 'The Battle of the Atlantic'. Chapter 14 (Disaster in the Arctic) explains a lot of the detail absent from this video.
For example, both the head and deputy head of the Admiralty's Operational Intelligence Centre (or 'OIC') tried to persuade Pound that the Tirpitz battlegroup had not put to sea. But being unable to give a definitive assurance of this - partly because of a break in intelligence due to not receiving Enigma decrypts - Pound feared that Tirpitz and the other surface units in its group were out searching for the convoy. Based on this fear, he took the decision to scatter it.
When the supply of Enigma decrypts resumed, they gave even more evidence pointing to the fact that the Tirpitz battlegroup was still at anchor in Altenfjord. But Pound refused to change his mind. "We have decided to scatter the convoy, and that is how it must stay", he insisted.
Another aspect of PQ-17 not covered in this short video are the extraordinary feats of survival performed by some of the survivors of the merchant ships sunk in this convoy. Notably, the stories of the crews of British merchant SS Hartlebury (Capt. George Stephenson) and the American merchant SS Olapana (Capt. Mervyn Stone). The stories of HMS Ayrshire and Capt. Leo Gradwell and Soviet Air Force Catalina pilot Mazaruk (who evacuated the survivors who finally made land in Novaya Zemlya and did this flight after flight after flight) are also pretty amazing.
The heroics performed by some of the other small corvettes, minesweepers and armed trawlers that acted as escorts for PQ-17 after the large Royal Navy surface ships were ordered to withdraw are also worthy of honourable mentions:
HMS Poppy (Lt. N.K Boyd, RNR);
HMS Palomares (Capt. John Jauncey RN);
HMS Pozarica (Capt. Edward Lawson RN);
HMS Lotus (Lt.H.J Hall,RNR);
HMS Lord Austin (T/Lt. O.B Egjar RNR);
HMS Northern Gem (Skr.Lt. W.J.V. Mullender, RNR);
Rescue Ship Zamalek;
Rescue Ship Zaafran.
The vessels listed above are just a selection of the ships that formed the escort force for PQ-17. Captains are named for the simple fact that heroes have names - they're not anonymous comic book characters, but real people.
I only wish there was room to name the brave men of the merchant fleets who bore the brunt of this and other convoys in the Arctic convoys and the Battle of the Atlantic.
If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times. If you want to know what happened during either of the World Wars, start reading!
Awesome details! But these videos are like you say, a gateway. I would say I have a higher than average knowledge of the World Wars and I've never even heard of these events, so these videos are perfect for exposing people such as myself to important events which must otherwise often be completely overlooked.
Also... time and motivation to read. A 13 minute synopsis is better than nothing,
It is a matter of record that following receipt by the Admiralty of Ultra intel on Op Rosselsprung, Norwegian and Swedish agents reported that Tirpitz, Hipper, and six destroyers had left Trondheim on 2 July, arriving at Altenfjord to replenish on the 4th. They did indeed leave again the following day. It was assumed, correctly, that they intended to intercept the convoy. Unknown initially by the UK, Lutzow, Scheer and 5 destroyers left Narvik on 3 July, but several ships ran aground on rocks in narrow channels and their part of the operation was aborted. So at the time the scatter signals were sent Pound would have had info on the planned German Op and the fact that 2 of the principal ships had sortied, moving North as expected. His deduction of German intent was in fact completely accurate. The only debate is over whether his response was correct.
hell even jermey clarkson done a good documentary about PQ17
one thing that got me was how well the graveyard for the fallen sailors was kept in Murmansk and Archangel was maintained by the locals
Love your work 👍
The map shown around the beginning has a huge glaring error: Finland's borders are in their post-war shape. In 1942, Finland's official borders were those of the treaty of Tartu (1920), and Finland was also occupying a part of the Soviet Union.
I'd say The Biggest Naval Blunder of WW2 was Admiral King refusing to convoy the ships ignoring British advice.
Since when do civilian ships answer to the US Navy?
@@kemarisite usually when there is a global war on and they would like protection from the enemy who keep wanting to sink them. We didn't seem to have an issue on our side of the pond.
@@Simon_Nonymous I'm sure the law is different in the UK, especially after they studiously avoided convoys in WW1 for almost three years. The complaint was that King refused to organize convoys, but I don't see where the US Navy has any authority in the spring of 1942 to tell civilian ships where and how to sail. The US Coast Guard does, but the Coast Guard has its own chain of command which did not answer to King.
@@kemarisite that's a helpful explanation Frank - there may be someone out there who knows better than I - but the real lesson from 1917 was that convoys did work, and did work rewally well, hence they came in here pretty quickly in WWII, no ifs, no buts. King's refusal to accept that was the start of the problem; as I understand him, if he wanted black to be white, it would be so. A matter of authority in a nation at war seems unlikely. Thank you for your response - I am usually wrong, so appreciate hearing what you said.
MV Wilhelm Gustloff- 10,000 people died
The 1943 film, "Action In The North Atlantic," which was praised for its accurate depiction of the life and duties of U.S. merchant marines during the ongoing war, (the film even being adopted by the actual U.S. Merchant Marine Academy as an educational film,) includes a scene in which the primary focus crew of merchant marines are forced to separate from their convoy by a German U-boat. The relativity of this film scene to the posted video is how the film shows the even more dangerous position the merchant ship is when it is alone, sailing through the same German patrolled area (north of Norway,) heading for a Russian port.
Enjoyed your video and so I gave it a Thumbs Up
A tragic story, and one that was thoroughly explored many years ago as a result of the libel case against the infamous revisionist 'historian' David Irving. But this video is a bit superficial and the implicit conclusions are at odds with the facts. First, Admiral Pound did not magically transport from the bridge of a Battleship to become First Sea Lord. Jutland was 25 years earlier and he had followed the usual route of squadron, fleet and senior staff commands as his career progressed. He in fact had a wealth of experience of senior decision-making roles. Second, his decisions and the resulting signals were the amalgam of the available intelligence as presented by his extensive and experienced staffs. He may have had the final word but he did not come up with these orders on his own. Hindsight is 20/20, but to understand his thinking you have to put yourself in his place and look at the information and advice he was receiving, and it is certainly disingenuous to suggest his ships' captains had a better picture than he did; quite the reverse is true.
There was certainly strategic intelligence of a plan to attack the PQ17 with a surface force comprising Tirpitz, Hipper, Scheer, and Lutzow. Aerial recce on 4 July showed that Tirpitz and Hipper at least had sortied so it appeared the plan was in action and it was decided that the best response was indeed to withdraw the cruiser force West to avoid its destruction by the superior German warships. New intelligence of U-Boat movements then further drove the decision to scatter the convoy. The Germans on the other hand suffered under a 'difficult' command and control system that involved direct intervention by Hitler and their planned surface group action disintegrated into farce, with the ships returning to port without getting anywhere near the enemy. If this had not been the case and they had met PQ17 the result would have been equally tragic but we would also be viewing the Admiralty's orders in a different light, having saved irreplacable cruisers and destroyers, albeit at a dreadful cost to the Merchant Marine.
Last, you mention that over 150 sailors lost their lives. Given the conditions and the loss of 24 ships, I'd have cast this as something of a miracle of seamanship and grit.
I understand it is hard in 14 minutes to convey the complexity of these events but I would expect the IWM to do better. Remember there are still families around who will have lost close relatives in PQ17 and, as the Irving case showed, years later emotions are still strong!
What about Pound's cancer? After he left the Navy, it was discovered he had a malignant brain cancer that had been festering for awhile and it's believed it had an hand in weakening his ability to make sound judgement.
Well bloody said that man. Great comment 💯💛👊👍
Thank you sir.
Aliies: *send thousands of men to their deaths keeping Soviet Union in the fight with badly-needed supplies, trucks and tanks*
Stalin: 'Those devious capitalists, they're trying to destroy me >:( '
I believe in the battle for Moscow which was the first time the Nazis were stopped 2/3 rds of the tanks in the battle were suppiled by the Arctic convoys.
@@stormywindmill and dear friend Russia showed their gratitude by airbrushing those tanks from the photographic record
It's easy to pass judgement on PQ17 after the fact. But at the time Adm Pound's main concern was the escorts. He couldn't afford to lose the ships necessary to protect the trans Atlantic convoys. I think those were more important to Britain than the convoys to the Soviets. Especially since there were other options for the Soviets supplies but only one for England. Fog of war. It's easier to replace a merchant ship than a Destroyer or Cruiser.
What are warships for if they run away when threatened?
@@JPKnapp-ro6xm you have to pick your battles, they didn't run away in the Atlantic. They can't just be sacraficed for nothing. How do you know you'd have done any different given the situation at the time? The Royal Navy had bigger concerns than 1 convoy to the Soviet Union.
Too bad the merchant ships couldn't run away. They had no choice but to keep going, unlike the heros in the Navy.
@@Mondo762 they had a better chance to avoid surface Raiders when they scattered. Unfortunately it didn't help against the Luftwaffe with practically unlimited daylight. Want a hero? How about the HMS Glowworm, the ship took on 2 Destroyers and the Admiral Hipper alone. I can't imagine how the Captain even walked to the bridge when he had balls the size of King Kong.
@@scottkrater2131 I have plenty of heros. They are the officers and crews of the Merchant ships that kept on even when they couldn't shoot back.
My father was a merchant seaman aboard the Earston on PQ17 which fought off many air and uboat attacks before being sunk. He and crew took to two lifeboats, the ships captain was taken prisoner and both lifeboats then spent seven days and nights on open lifeboats in the arctic sea. They washed ashore in Russia/Finland and were then treated like prisoners. I only know this having read about his experience in history books. He never spoke about it and I believe he never recovered.
A small correction. Prinz Eugen never reached Norway. She sailed for Norway with Scheer and five destroyers on 21 February, 1942, but was torpedoed by HMS Trident, causing serious damage to her stern. After completing repairs in Kiel by January 1943, she spent the rest of the war in the Baltic.
You would expect the IWM to know this, I suggest?
I would put Midway, Philippine Sea, and Leyte Gulf as more costly naval disasters in WW2 - the first crippled the Japanese Navy, the second crushed their remaining offensive forces, and the last removed the Japanese Navy from the seas as a combat force.
If you don't time stamp the moment you are trying to correct it makes your correction meaningless as I don't recall either of the narrators saying that to scatter the convoy was the biggest naval disaster of WW2.
6:25 Pretty sure it was the 27th of June. But great video nonetheless!
PQ17 may have been the biggest single acute naval failure of WW2 (although I would offer that some of the decisions in the Far East were worse) but the single biggest continuing naval failure has to be the Royal Navy's 1941/1942 campaign in the Mediterranean where ship after ship was thrown away in a stubborn refusal to accept reality - that ships can't fight aircraft - and the government in London was unable to force through some kind of joint service command where the RAF had to do what the war needed and not what it decided was the best option.
When the Falklands rolled round and I saw the navy repeating the same purposeless tactics against the Argentinians I was appalled. Every RN ship on the gun line and on picket duty was damaged by air attack and 3 were destroyed, How we got away with it I'll never understand. Ships cannot go where the enemy has control of the air.
You may also enjoy Dr. Alexander Clarke's youtube channel (author of "Tribals, Battles, and Darings") and of course Drachenifl.
Great video about a tragic piece of history. I think part of the confusion about PQ17 was due to the crypto dark day, on July IV Bletchley lost decrypts. By the sixth restored.
11:19: Note the open bridge. Nice during summer, not so nice during winter, or adverse weather.
If the ships made it to Russia, he would have been praised for his decision.
My grandad was a part of this on the HMS Pozarica
“Biggest naval mistake” was the unfathomable delay in enforcing a convoy and routing system on the east coast of the US following Germany’s declaration of war in Dec 1941. How many merchants and their brave crews were lost through that? Some has even braved the Atlantic, under RN & RCN escort, only to be sunk within sight of their destination because they were made to sail independent through the U-Boats’ new, rich, hunting grounds. Crazy.
Wasn’t Sir Dudley suffering from a Brain tumour during this period of his service? Did that have an effect on his decision making at all?
He’d also suffered a pair of strokes in 1943’ and became paralytic because of this. At the start of the war he was the best of a bad lot physically and mentally to take on the task.
@@hughjohnson2674 Yes he was and it was long apparent that he wasn't fit for the job. I recently read Allanbrooke's diaries and he is absolutely scathing about Pound being left in his vital role when he couldn't do it (even if it was no fault of his own). Allanbrooke seems to write on a daily basis that Pound was fast asleep at the crucial CIGS meetings again...
tragic outcome of a single tumor for so many crew who lost their lives and ships.
omg. I had no idea Pound was fatally ill!
No wonder! How very very sad for all.
"Lord God of hosts, be with us yet, lest we forget, lest we forget." -Kipling
It left June 27, not July 27. I noticed you made that mistake multiple times.
I’m not sure I believe the quote at 1:21 that in June 1942 the Allie’s were losing the war. If we go from the 7th of June on the USA has entered, won at Midway, and started strategic bombing of Germany. The British won the Battle of Britain and landed in Africa. The Russian stopped the German advance. Stalemate maybe, losing… no.
Battle of Britain was defensive, France was overrun and Russia was largely occupied. We weren't riding any too high....yet.
Years ago I worked with a German who had fought in Russia, I once asked him when did he first think his side was going to lose the war, and he replied 1942.
I am fairly certain the sailors on Force Z would disagree with this claim.
Was the uss Atlantis real? l saw a picture of a t2 tanker named Atlantis going down by stern so can someone tell is the uss Atlantis real or a fictional
What cargo was the convoy shipping to USSR I can imagine a vast selection
Churchill heavy tanks and Matilda medium tanks.
----"Without Spam, the Russian army would have starved"---Nikita Sergeevich Krushchev. After the war, Both Stalin and Kruschev acknowledged the help provided by the Arctic convoy supplies.
@@stormywindmill have you seen war factories? WW2 was fought with trucks number of trucks built in the SU 1941/45 less the 300 how many imported over 20.000 again a good source of hard cash
Something I never understood. This is considered a disaster, where as Operation Pedestal (with more manpower losses and the loss of fleet units) is considered a success
Because Pedestal was a naval operation intended to force through sufficient supplies to enable Malta to continue as an operational Allied base. It could be argued that, whilst a tactical success for the axis, it was a major strategic victory for the allies.
Pedestal was essential to Malta’s survival. When the SS Ohio unloaded her precious aviation fuel, the Spitfires could gain air superiority and Malta’s subs wrecked havoc on Rommel’s supply lines in Africa. It was a costly success.
Biggest naval mistake (in the Allied side) of WW2 occurred in the Battle of Savo Island. Damn did we get our butts handed to us by the IJN.
What was the mistake?
@@krashd Here are a few vids about it:
ua-cam.com/video/lICRQPIduFc/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/HGsqFxVnC8E/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/rNZHF59l178/v-deo.html
From wikipedia, some of the problems were:
- (Rear Admiral Richmond K.) "Turner had requested that U.S. Admiral John S. McCain Sr., commander of Allied air forces for the South Pacific area, conduct extra reconnaissance missions over the Slot in the afternoon of August 8. But, for unexplained reasons, McCain did not order the missions, nor did he tell Turner that they were not carried out."
- "The crews of the Allied ships were fatigued after two days of constant alert and action in supporting the landings. Also, the weather was extremely hot and humid, inducing further fatigue and, in Morison's words, "inviting weary sailors to slackness." In response, most of Crutchley's warships went to "Condition II" the night of August 8, which meant that half the crews were on duty while the other half rested, either in their bunks or near their battle stations."
"At 20:55, Crutchley left the southern group in Australia to attend the conference, leaving Captain Howard D. Bode of Chicago in charge of the southern group. Crutchley did not inform the commanders of the other cruiser groups of his absence, contributing further to the dissolution of command arrangements. Bode, awakened from sleep in his cabin, decided not to place his ship in the lead of the southern group of ships, the customary place for the senior ship and went back to sleep."
Hope this helps
It is ashamed that the battleship admirals did not realize that Hitler would never send the Tirpitz into battle (by this time the Royal Navy with the USN could have sunk her and actually finish off the German surface navy.)
The German Task Force ( Operation Rosselsprung ) was actually intended to consist of Tirpitz, three heavy cruisers (Lutzow, Scheer, & Hipper) and twelve destroyers.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 the Home Fleet covering force: Victorious, Duke of York, Washington, six cruise, 20 destroyers- more than enough to defeat the Germans but in any case, the Germans would not engage. The convoy should have stayed together.
@@Purvis-dw4qf I know, and I agree about not scattering the convoy. The concern was that the Distant Covering Force, of two battleships, two cruisers, and twelve destroyers was too far away. The Cruiser Covering Force, of four heavy cruisers three destroyers, was close enough to intervene, however, especially after Broome ordered those destroyers from the close escort armed with torpedoes to join Hamilton's cruisers.
Was the covering force superior to the Tirpitz and likely consorts? If so, the scatter signal didn't make sense.
I always get annoyed at these accounts of survivors succumbing to exposure. The survival suits we have today would have saved thousands of lives had they been available in WW2.
Not without the Distant Covering force, which might have been too far away to intervene. That said, the scatter order based on inadequate information was a mistake. What was right for an Altantic convoy scattering to avoid a lone raider, with no U-boats in contact and far from enemy aircraft, was wrong for a convoy threatened by, potentially, a whole task force, supported by U-boats and aircraft. My view is that the convoy should have stayed united, and Hamilton's cruisers sent in support.
However, I have, as we all do, the considerable benefit of hindsight.
The video starts by giving the wrong date: 27 June, not 27 July.
Hahahaha brilliant.
Should we have somrone shot?
@@vincentdunne3642 Can you arrange that? Seems a little extreme, but if you think it will help.
4:00 "destructing"?? You mean "destroying"?
Spearhead formation!
As the video says the British and Soviets were not natural allies. However as the saying goes 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. That's also why Finland swapped sides.
I'm not sure what your getting at with the Finns. The Germans weren't ever Finnish enemies. The Soviets were. The Finns always fought for themselves. Even during the Continuation War from 1941 to 45. Finland wasn't a Axis Ally. They were just fighting the Soviets at the same time. At least that's how they viewed it. They weren't on the Allied side either.
@@scottkrater2131 The Finns fought the Winter War against Russia - who at the time had a non-aggression pact with Germany, supported unofficially by the UK among others. Later they fought against the UK as part of the Axis forces.
@@julianmhall This may seem a detail to you, but it's an important one. The Finns fought the Winter War against the Soviets, not the Russians. The Uk did unofficially support them, as did the Germans. They were never officially German allies, they fought the Continuation War against the Soviet Union. It happened to be simultaneously with the German invasion of the Soviet Union but they fought independently of German strategic objectives. That's why they signed a separate peace with the Soviets and weren't occupied like the Axis allies, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria. Finns never fought against the Uk or any other Western Allied power. The Finns forced German troops out of Finland after they signed the treaty with the Soviet Union.
@@scottkrater2131 The Soviet Union /was/ in the main Russia, or at least led by Russia, so like some refer to BRITAIN as ENGLAND some refer to the SOVIET UNION as RUSSIA. Also there were Finnish volunteers in the SS, so although it wasn't official policy (the SS also had British volunteers) there was support for Germany.
@@julianmhall it's the same thing. Britain and England are synonymous. The Soviet Union is a political creation and Russia only made up 58% of the Soviet Union. Ask a Russian. I was recently informed by same how poorly educated westerners think they are the same thing. Russian is an ethnic group. Soviets are not. Yes the were Russian, Ukrainian, French, Dutch, etc fighting in German uniform. That doesn't make their Countries German Allies. It makes them Nazi collaborators. Finland was not an ally because some were in the SS. Only a German citizen could enlist in the Heer. The SS would take any warm body. Aryan or not.
It is easy to be wise after the event.
Regarding the heavy US ship losses off the East Coast - Admiral King refused to take advice from the British, who certainly knew about how successful the convoy system was.
Compare losses in 1917 to just Germany then compare losses in 1942 to Germany, Italy and Japan.
A point well highlighted
in the Enigma Movie!
The worst Allied naval disaster of WW2 was the American response to Operation Drumbeat but PQ-17 comes close.
The USA went from being "neutral" to being at war with the Axis in four days. Britain still had the worlds largest navy and had been at war for almost three years when PQ17 was left to fend for itself.
I never understood why Stalin would have sent Russian merchant martine sailors to take those Liberty convoy vessels to Murmansk. By the way, there was a secret agreement between Finland and USA that fnns would not cut the railwaytraffic from murmansk to moscw and other parts of Russia. USA would take care that Stalin would not invade Finland in 1944
Apparently one of Stalins obsessions
on the merchantile vessels were,
Trucks,and plenty of them.In the
end this is how he travelled to
Berlin around the time of its
capture and downfall!
The question I was going to ask was,
how well did the liberty vessels
perform at sea? They certainly
seemed to help turn the tide
of the war.
The US industrial strength
and output,acted as a
God send for the Uk
and the commonwealth
at that time!
The internal story of development
on the part of the USA preceding
the war years is so worth chasing
up,on the National Geographic
Channel!
The achievements
of the American
economy by way
of new hydro
electric stations,
public works,
roads,damns
aswell as
new
viaducts
right thru to
the work on
Mount
Rushmore,
and the work of
the national
conservation
volunteers,
preceding
WW2
was
immense!
Largely to due
to the vision and
bold leadership
of the then
President
FDR Roosevelt!
Pound wanted change.
Why couldn’t they all turn around and gone back?
they would have had to refund the soviets for the cost of the goods BOUGHT and still would have had to deliver it
As the UK was needed its warships for the war,Pound was right.With hindsight,the heavy losses was due to the withdrawal of escorts,instead of the scattering of the convoy.If the Allied navy had engaged the Axis ships,the result would probably have been a pyrrhic result for the Allies.If you’re judging individuals from history,you should put yourself in their “shoes” & shouldn’t use hindsight.
I suspect he did it based upon the best information he had at hand.
Sadly, he didn't. His staff were almost unanimous in their opinion that Tirpitz and her squadron were not at sea. The probability is that his judgement was clouded by the brain tumour which eventually killed him.
7:07 Secret weapons
Marian Rejewski
Jerzy Różycki
Henryk Zygalski
why did they not send convoys to the USSR from Alaska, at least in summer?
it is after all a much shorter voyage...
Remember Stalin forbid it Secondly Russia and Japan were not enemies Later on the Americans would reflag some of their Liberty ships under Russian flags along with Russian crews so Japanese would not attack them
richard head how do you plan to get 200,000 ton of stuff from the far east coast to where the fighting is 4000 miles away?
3rd biggest mistake of the war.
After keeping Halsey and McArthur.
"In fact he'd commanded the dreadnoughts at the Battle of Jutland." That pretty much explains his blunder in WWII-a vile blend of risk-averse cowardice and incompetence. Protecting himself resulted in disaster for those in the convoy.
And how is the weather in Beijing numbnuts? He'd more balls than you.
He commanded HMS Colossus at Jutland. She helped to sink the cruiser Wiesbaden, and hit the battlecruiser Derfflinger five times. She was the only Grand Fleet battleship to be hit by German shellfire, receiving two hits.
What 'risk averse cowardice?' and how was Pound protecting himself? He was in the Admiralty building in LONDON, for heaven's sake.
Given post war history I wonder if it would have been better to not directly help Stalin? Maybe the result would be no nazi or communist governments today?
sorry sending clapped out weapons to Stalin was a good source of hard cash for the British ( what you think we gave it for free)
all the amercian aid to UK who do you think signed the last cheque that paid it off? TONY BLAIR
I depresses me when I hear the Russians today not even 80 years later accusing us of being nart zees. It disgusts me when I think of all our sailors that died helping them when nobody else would and just a few years later they mock us and threaten us. It make my pi55 boil in fact.
Well the west did fund the Azov battalion with them in it, confirmed knowingly so. 100b in “aid” sent so far. Perhaps you should acknowledge your biases and misgivings, consider taking a step back and looking at Russia’s reasons critically and begin to understand what they think. If capable of doing so without resorting to emotion and cognitive dissonance.
Well the UK government has been actively supporting far right extremists in Ukraine for some time now, hence the Russian accusations.
Who have been and are supporting, financing and arming in Ukraine. They would be NAZIs. How about Syria…who do we support, arm and finance? That would be ISIS and Al Qaeda.
I lived and worked in USSR from 1984--86 (The height of the "Cold war") I always found the Russian people friendly and well disposed to us western foreigners and quite a number of the older ones possed a nostalgic memory of us as WW2 allies.
What the wartime and post-war Russian governments did do was recognize the courage and sacrifice of the Arctic supply convoys. They issued a number of decorations for the military and civilian seamen who served in those Hellish conditions. Shamefully, spitefully, successive UK governments refused to do so until many of those who would have qualified had died of old age.
I’m embarrassed by all the lies that have been told about WWII.
Imo, Biggest naval failure was the anhillation of the italian navy as they steamed into a trap. Convoy Merchant ships... thousands of merchant ships built over the war. The italian Navy and with it, any chance to assist in the mediterranean campaign? poof, gone.
When was that?
@@shawnc1016 Taranto: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taranto
That map projection was a terrible choice for a story that takes place partly in the Arctic circle. Really visually misleading
I think we need to ask the Russians to give us back all our stuff/ and or pay compensation.
I am not quite sure whether PQ-17 was the biggest convoy disaster. I think that the losses in Operation Pedesdal were proportionally larger. The following statistics speak for themselves
Losses PQ17 Operations Pedestal
Merchants ships 23 out of 34 (32%) 11 out of 15 (33%)
Arrcraft carrier nil 1 (HMS Eagle + 16 aircrafts)
Cruisers nil 2 (HMS Manchester & HMS Cairo)
Destroyers nil 1 (MMS Foresight)
Lives lost 153 about 500 merchant and RN sailors
Damaged
Aircarft carrier 0 1 (HMS Indomitable)
Cruiser 0 1 ( HMS Nigeria)
Helpful
outlay!
The admiral’s brain tumor may have actually interfered with his thinking.
I'd be more impressed by Western leaders if they'd showed a bit less sympathy for Stalin. WWII didn't just begin because Hitler invaded Poland. It began because Hitler and Stalin agreed to invade and conquer Poland, with Hitler making the first move. There's no need to display any sympathy for Stalin. What he'd sown, he'd repeated. He'd put Hitler's armies on his borders.
Better the Russian soldiers die than our own.
It was cold-blooded calculation, not sympathy. The Allies needed the Soviet armies to invade Germany in the long run. In the short term, the harder the Soviets fought in Russia, the less resources the Axis had for north Africa. It was an alliance of convenience and, beyond the flashy PR, everyone knew it.
Churchill's blunder neglecting
Far east by sending valuable
Tanks aircraft to russia!
Perhaps research a bit more. Churchill did say that if Hitler invaded hell, he would at least make a decent refernce for the Devil. Ie - my enemy's enemy is my friend. I would not call that sympathy, I'd call it good realpolitik, and no one really seems to have any good alternatives apart from A Bomb the Commies. (Which in 1941 wasn't really an option was it?)
Simple. Flawed intelligence. Had Tirpitz been in the area keeping the convoy together would have presented one large target to the Tirpitz and on naval radar, and Tirpitz had the gun calibre to stay out of range of the escorts. Splitting up the convoy would have presented dozens of small targets of tens of thousands of square miles of sea. More would get through than if pounded by the Tirpitz. Pound acted correctly for what he was told. The intelligence was /wrong/ so Pound gave the uboats undefended targets, but that was not his fault.
Faulty intelligence also doomed Force Z, eliminating the last Allied battleship force in the Pacific. The little things add up to huge consequences.
And indeed, how many correct decisions did he make, which don't get recognised as quickly. The loss of tonnage and cargo was bad, but percentage wise, a fraction of what was delivered possibly. Every loss or injury is an individual tragedy of course, but the human losses in PQ17 would have been a quiet day in WWI, in 1944 Normandie, or especially on the Eastern Front where these supplies were heading.
was the intelligence faulty (the intelligence was messages to uboats to fire freely (IE no surface ships in area)) or was it not listened to? Answer: it was the latter
@@davidlewis5312 your reply suggests you're referring to /German/ naval intelligence. I was referring to /British/. The latter /was/ faulty.
Not great thinking, got wrapped up with fear and feelings and did not use logical thinking.
The biggest mistake of WW2 was giving part of Berlin to the USSR
.
The Russian Army occupied Berlin in its entirety before the Western Allies arrived. Who gave who....
The biggest mistake of ww2 was filming it in the states
l don't fully understand why Britain helped Russia so much. l have seen many videos and heard reasons at to why, but none, to me, makes too much sense.
Because Germany was conquering Europe and Africa and had they got their hands on oil they would have been next to unstoppable.
'My enemy's enemy is my friend.'
Britain should be glad it did. Who do you think bear the Germans. The Germans preferred the Americans to the Russians. That says everything.
needed to SELL outdated/obsolete junk and the soviets paid cash
@@GKCostalas "...Sepp Dietrich grumbled, that even the elite divisions of the SS could not effortlessly overrun the Americans." "...these were tough opponents, soldiers as good as our own men."
page 418 Inside The Third Reich, Speer.
Whoever makes a Ship, Rules the World.
Sound like the words
of a true Mariner!
My question is why didn't the allied forces just ship stuff out of the west coast to Siberia ab.nd put it on the trans Siberia R.R
Because the Germans would just sink it in the Atlantic and the Japanese would sink anything that survived in the Pacific.
@@krashd and how long a train to carry 200,000 tons and how long to move the 4000miles?
@@krashd rob apparently you know very little about WW ll , first off everything that went to Russia out of Iceland and great Britain came from the United States or Canada first. So it still had to cross the Atlantic. Your statements about the Japanese sinking everything is comical. The Japanese had very few submarines. For example the primary class of Japanese submarines used in ww ll was the type B which they only built 18 . You also don't seem to know that from Alaska to Siberia is only a little over 100 miles from Seattle yougo up the inside passage and they were in protected shallow waters where a sub could not operate. It is aclot shorter trim than crossing the north Atlantic from canada.
F- Russia the USA was also battling Japan and The Germans in North Africa. Russia even needed American parts to make their tanks. If not for the USA Russia would have lost against Germany.
BS. History indicates otherwise. Not American propaganda.
Without US material aid the Allies would not have won the war in Europe. Without the commitment of vast German forces on the Eastern Front the Allies could never have established a foothold in France.
Claiming that there should be some guilt over lost part of convoy towards soviets is ridiculous. Clearly the makers of this vid are living in a lalaland and have no clue who the soviets were.
p͎r͎o͎m͎o͎s͎m͎
Just another British flawed decision that cost many brave lives.
Q: So if Britain hadn't jumped into this war with the French who were "meant" to be our allies because Germany invaded Poland. Who had been given Prussian land via WW1 because the French had killed the prince of Austria (lets be honest, it was them), would we have allied with our natural cousins (Saxons... depends who you ask though, our Norman friends may disagree) it may all have been a differnt ending??? (and we would be overrun today!).
Edit: And as said these suspicions were only carried into the present day, and now you are all up in arms over evil Russia hitting Ukraine... You reap what you sow they say, well, we've reaped it! Be careful what you wish for!!
Threat is not pronounced FFFret get a grip
uboats tirpitz and aircraft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No it was not the worst mistake. a terrible mistake yes but by no means the worst. Sending HMS Repulse and Prince of Wales was worse. Admiral King allowing his Anglophobia to NOT instigate a convoy system along the east coast of America was far worse!
Canada to Ireland 2,000 miles. Miami to Halifax 2,000 miles.
The biggest mistake in WWII was listening to ANY ideas coming out (no pun intended, but if the shoe fits…) of Monty’s mouth. There really was NO military campaigns that he originated that worked. And can someone PLEASE collect Harry and the train-wreck of a wife of his back to the UK?
The fact that Monty was the best commander the British had shows the truly pathetic state of British army leadership in WWII. The British Army invaded Norway in April of 1940 and were totally outmaneuvered by the Germans and withdrew. They were surrounded in France and fled across the channel without their tanks. They occupied Greece and said they would never leave, then they were driven out in a few months. They said they would never give up Crete then they were defeated there by a handful of German paratroopers. They gave up Singapore with barely a fight. In North Africa they got surrounded at Tobruk and surrendered 32,000 men. The only British army victory accomplished without substantial American aid was El Alamein. No wonder they thought Monty was a hero.
@@JPKnapp-ro6xm monty was a competent commander who’s rep has been ruined by American propaganda
You do know that Monty was in command on D-Day? He had total control over Operation Overlord, I'd say he did pretty well.
How is it that videos of this sort always attract people like this? Cosmic, old chap, would you care to express your opinion about Patton's shambolic campaign in Lorraine, the triumph of Bradley & Hodges in the Hurtgen Forest, or the 600+ merchant ships lost off the us East Coast in early 1942 when Ernie King failed to respond to Paukenschlag?
@@krashd Monty was commander of ground forces from D Day to Operation Dragoon.
England's battle cry during WW2...HELP,HELP AMERICA!!! Please help us!! God shave the queenie.
The Royal Navy single-handedly won the Battle of the Atlantic. You aren’t taking credit for this one mate.
Edit: credit to the RCN for their convoy escort role in ww2.
Troll harder, Mike.
@@Luke_Sandy_High_Ground Partly right, but don't forget the RCN's role. You might, however, also mention that the RN also won their campaigns in the Mediterranean and the Arctic, as well as planning and successfully executing every assault landing in the west from Torch to Overlord.
@@dovetonsturdee7033 yeah the canadians had the third biggest navy in the world by 1945
@@Luke_Sandy_High_Ground Right, because the US did not repair and upgrade RN carriers, battleships and cruisers from March 41, USS Reuben James was not sunk near Iceland in Oct 41 and the US did not give Britain 10 Lake class cutters, 78 Captain class frigates, 38 escort carriers, over 4,000 carrier aircraft, over 2,000 B24's, over 1,000 Lockheed Hudson's and the USN did not capture U 505 or invent sonar buoys or the FIDO air launch acoustic homing torpedo.
sink it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aemriicia ibirith russiian sbuamrines and chiensen submairnes japensn gemrna submairnes.
10:48 gives me an impression of Joe Biden
biggest navel mistake nah
norway campaign
lets fill up the deck of an aircraft carrier with so many planes we can not put up a CAP and see how well we stand up to a gunboat? (answer one sunk aircraft carrier)
chase for bismark lets see how well wooden deck amour plating stands up to 14inch bullets? (answer HMS hood sank after 2 hits
later on lets send planes after the bismark and not tell anybody? ( the force was fired on by british ships and could not tell them to STOP SHOOTING AT US)
lets see what happens if we leave all watertight doors open on a carrier after it gets hit by ONE torpedo? (answer HNS ark royal fell over and sank)
lets see what happens if we send 2 battleships against a carrier group? (answer two battleship shaped reefs at bottom of ocean)
during Iran/Iraq war we a british merchant ship asked the royal navy for an escort from the straits to Kuwiat answer sorry it is too dangerous to go to Kuwait
How did I guess it was British. Can’t do anything right.
f stalin
There was no Persia in WW2.Did you fail political & geographical history?