Snaffle vs Shanked bit
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- Опубліковано 17 лис 2020
- Here’s a video of a horse named Zip who was being ridden in a snaffle but he didn’t seem to like it all that much. So we tried him in a myler low port shanked bit. Check out the results
Rosehorsemanship.com
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Thanks so much for sharing this. I love your approach. I believe whole heartedly in creating a situation where the horse is allowed to think and make the right choice not just rote push-button responses. So many people don't have the patience to do that. Several decades ago, my first horse suffered from 2 to about 4 years old through various heavy handed riders and trainers insisting on snaffles even resorting to thin twisted wire snaffles to "make his lips so tender he'll give to the bit". Yeah, ouch. As you can imagine, he had all the bad habits that come with bit evasion -- head tossing, opening mouth and the really fun one...rearing! In spite of all that he was a sweet, smart, playful, confident horse not to mention forgiving. Nickname was "Houdini" - need I say more? I couldn't give up on him. I wasn't a trainer but I couldn't tolerate their techniques so I decided to try on my own. I took off all the gear like tie downs, figure-8 cavessons, etc. and tried to go as basic as possible with a light, low hand, one rein stops, trying to stay out of his mouth and get him to focus on leg and seat aids. He was still in the snaffle because I thought it was the "gentle" bit. Wasn't easy because he had learned that riding meant fighting the rider. I noticed one day while he was yawning that his palate was completely flat from gum line to gum line - no concavity. I wondered if the bit was poking him in the roof of his mouth. I don't know if that was the issue but when I put him in a double jointed kimberwick with a copper roller...viola. He loved it! I felt really bad that it took that long to figure out. I don't know if that is a common anatomical feature in horses but I've never forgotten it! He grew into a dynamite trail horse and my best friend. He was with me through many moves around the western U.S. to his dying day with his head in my lap at 32 years old. Still miss him.
I’ve experienced this very thing with my Paso. Hates a snaffle. And I don’t blame him. If you’ve ever seen the moving X-ray of a snaffle bit, you wouldn’t use one. It stuck with me so much now I’m trying bitless. I always rode in a shank bit, in my youth, and never had problems with it so when I came back to riding I was shocked at how many people talked about the evils of a leverage bit. Whoa! What happened while I was gone? Apparently a ton of stuff. It’s been like starting over. Thanks to Ryan, and a few special horse people, I’ve learned and re-learned a ton of stuff in 5 years. Love the videos Ryan! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise with us.
can you link me to this moving x-ray? thank you!
That was like night and day! Funny how one size DOES NOT fit all. 😀 Thanks for sharing.
At first glance in your video, I was thinking the Billy Allen mouthpiece, but I see in your video notes it is a low port Myler. They are virtually the same mouthpiece. For anyone that is interested, the Billy Allen is much less expensive! Both offer tongue relief and eliminate the nutcracker effect of the typical snaffle. They come in a snaffle version, shanks with D rings for four reins if desired, or regular shanks, making them excellent transition bits from snaffle to leverage bits. Great job in showing the difference of the horse responding to the same mouthpiece that had leverage compared to the same mouthpiece that didn't have leverage! All the best!
Thanks for breaking the bit topic down the way you did Ryan. So many trainers are afraid of the topic. The visual was great. Thanks you.
Thanks
It’s always interesting watching western trainers. I do saddleseat and we have a different approach with the training after basic round pen stuff! Of course most saddleseat horses are taught to drive first so we don’t want a lot of bending and turning to face us with saddles or harness on. I respect ALL GOOD HORSEMANSHIP!
I have the exact same issue. My gelding who is now 7 and went to a trainer and she was using a twisted snaffle. I dont know what she may have done to get him trained Didn't turn out so well.He is by my stallion and I am having the same problem with him that I had with my stallion with the snaffle. As soon as I pick up the reins they both braced. I switched my stallion over to a leverage training bit at that was split with a larger roller. We didn't start him under saddle until he was 12. Never intended to start him bit we did.
Thanks so much for covering this. I took a lot of heat from colleagues about him not being collected too. I just want some softening and get him to relax and not get so stressed. Fighting with him is only going to get him resentful. He's gotten to the point where now he clamps his mouth. He gets yearly dental work so we are going to do that in a few weeks but I
we are going to try this in the next few days to see if leverage is the answer. Thank you so much for the video.
What I do want to say this- This problem comes from trainers that follow a cookie cutter approach to get the horse in and out of their barn as fast as they can if you are not part of their show string or the owners are pushing to get them in the show pen. Showing is the culprit due to AQHA & APHA Jr & Sr western pleasure horses that must ride in certain bits two handed or one.
Wonder how many good talented horses horses don't get that opportunity due to those rules. 🤔
Right on! Who says all horses must be ridden in collection? Impulsion and relaxation need to come first. If the horse doesn't have that foundation, then collection is just rushing him when he's not ready. If you don't want to ride with collection, that's your choice and your business. Not theirs! Good job standing your ground. All the best!
Not one size fits all. So to speak. Thank you again Ryan. Keep staying fact for fact. Thank you for being honest and easy to understand! 👌👍🏻😎
Nice explanation and example - - you are right there are lots of tools - - like you state . . . it is important to look for that soft feel and see what works best for each horse . .
Thanks
Sometimes horses have a low palate and when you pick up the reins using a snaffle, he gets poked in the palate by the hinged portion in the center of the snaffle. It will flex towards the palate as you pull back. You didn't say whether this is a snaffle that is a straight bar across or hinged in the middle. Also, if the mouthpiece is too fat and the horse has a low palate, they will not like it either. I do love your videos. Really sensible, intelligent approach to horse training, riding, and handling.
It has a joint in the middle. He stated that and you can clearly see it at 2:09
A snaffle by definition is broken in the middle. A straight bar bit is called a mullen mouth.
The video notes also say the mouthpiece for both bridles is a low port Myler where the regular snaffle joint is inside a roller so that the nutcracker effect of the regular snaffle is eliminated. Billy Allen mouthpieces are the same style as the Myler and are less expensive, and both offer significant tongue relief to the horse, the forward tilt even more than the regular style. They can come in a snaffle version, regular shanks or with shanks that have a D ring so that four reins can be used, making the Billy Allen or Myler very nice transition bits from a snaffle to a leverage bit. All the best!
Great Video Ryan!
Great video. Easy to understand and very informative. Thanks.
Thank you for this. My horse fights the square mouth snaffle. Started him on the correction bit shank & he's great.
I just bought a horse that's used to a shank and I put her in a snaffle. She's been terrible. So I went and bought a shank and started researching about it. Thank you for taking the time to explain this!!
Thank you
Loved the video
Both my horses could benefit from this….thank you
Great info! My mare holds her head high and likes to run through her bit. I been using a high port leverage bit.
I'm surprised at his give, I've always thought the opposite was true, thanks for sharing this. Love watching the connection you develop, as you let the horse figure things out. The respect they show you is like magic. Great job, again, thanks.
Thanks you so much..
Great video. Ty
😀👌
Wow that’s a really nice horse 😍😍😍
A snaffle bit is made to pickup one rein at a time in my opinion you could pickup right or left rein put in a small circle work on the ribs and hip with inside leg and get the same result is to soon for two reins he can brace on you my opinion there are many ways to school horses not trying to upset anyone
Carrie Fisher definitely 💯
OMG I accidentally said I'm going to collect my horse ONCE to a trainer. After her long description about what collection is and how I don't know what I'm talking about. I said OK I am going to GET my horse from the pasture and GET HER MIND ON ME then tack her up. That is all I meant 🤷♀️ For 40 years My Dad has been saying go collet up Sparky meaning exactly that. Get him from the field, get his mind on the ridder, tack him up and bring him here. Its a no brainer, until you accidentally say it in front of a fancy dressage trainer. My Dad had a trail ridding business a way back. At one time there was 20 horses or more, not all belonged to my dad but, they were in the fields and needed to be COLLECTED at some point. lol
what does it mean?
@@CHLOCHLOLP en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collection_(horse)#:~:text=Collection%20occurs%20when%20a%20horse's,limbs%20generate%20higher%20vertical%20impulses).
I've always used the term collection the in the same manor as my dad. I'm not interested in having so much control on their every move. I like to trail ride and while yes having control to scale a mountain side, might be some ones idea of fun, I don't feel the need to make my horse do that. Maybe when I was 20 something I may have tried with a well trained horse but, now that I'm 50+ I like to just walk a good trail and step over the logs ;). My horse is an ex-brood mare 19 years young and had a hard life (rescue). I let her enjoy our time on a trail or on our property, I'm not interested in stressing her to the limit. I suppose I've never considered horse back a sport more therapy, and my grandkids to like to ride her also ;) scontent.fyyc2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/r90/66724270_2268441823276131_5258519084026298368_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=3&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=sX7KRCeVQu8AX-tU5rG&_nc_ht=scontent.fyyc2-1.fna&_nc_tp=31&oh=df19f85688ad508efeb5dd8f20a62be5&oe=604BE403
I think I'll start using the term "wrangle up my horse" around the fancy dressage trainers lol
@@lorineidtinytoadplot744 oh interesting, yea that's way beyond my riding knowledge lol, I never got that far into it. (but you would think with the context the trained would know what you meant, how would you 'collect' the horse in the proper use of the word without even being on its back lol, sounds like they just wanted to lecture someone) as a 21 year old, Im with you on the relaxed trail riding lol. But that's an adorable picture
it's the pole preasure!
Thank you for this video. I have a mare that reacts very negatively to the snaffle, so I tried a hackamore, but not getting a good response there, either. Will try a bridle. Very excited to see how this plays out.
RLCinGA how’d it go?
Have you tried Pat Puckett’s Missing Link snaffle? I prefer a leverage bit but the Missing Link snaffle is amazing- just like you!
Finally, a western trainer that actually rides in a GOOD snaffle and curb bit! Are those ones mylers by the way? 🤔
Yes, they are (from the video notes). Billy Allen mouthpieces are the same as the Myler and are much less expensive. All the best!
First let me say I like your videos and agree with you on things and you give me help on how to explain things to people who I’m trying to teach things. In the beginning of this video, you say “snaffle” and “shank” - then all throughout the rest of the video when you are talking about the shank bit you kept calling it a bridle. Why? Both bits are attached to a bridle.
It's a Western term. If you look up their shows you might understand more. A "Snaffle Bit" show is for young, green horses. A Bridle horse is a finished or nearly finished horse and usually uses a curb/shank type bit. I can't remember what I watched that explained it.. it was a movie(documentary) on Netflix, I think.
Thanks Ryan, i might give this a try. I've been puzzled by my horse never wanting to have vertical flexion in his snaffle bit.
I have another puzzle too. After spending so much time teaching my horse to give or yield to pressure how can it make sense to him to now push into pressure when i ask for vertical flexion?
Rode my mare her whole life in a snaffle. She was so sensitive and could neck rein her without any pressure. Had a stud that was also soft mouthed but had to put him in a curb bit to show. Used the gentlest one I could find and he did great. Both arabians so unsure if that made a difference.
Ryan seems to have a good touch with horses. I would have chosen to add a running martingale or draw rein before adding a curb bit, or even a copper twist snaffle bit. I think this is a quick fix,, in a while I wonder if his mouth will be hard and no longer respond to that,,,,
Hello Ryan. I have run a cross a couple of your videos here recently. And if I were to guess part of your program is operating under a Ray Hunt or a buck Branaman influence. Or maybe by somebody that was influence in that manner. A lot of The things I here you say or watch you do would alien with some of that influences. And if that is so you never heard them talk about equipment changes, to move forward. It was a mental charge to an approach, with feel timing & balance.
When pulled back on the snaffle the horse told me he was protecting himself from bad hands. As your hands changed in the snaffle so did your horse. When you lifted your inside rein slightly the horse could respond better and you could add the supporting rein for vertical softness.
When you went to the curb bit your mindset was of a successful approach. And remember with that curb bit you have leverage of 1.5 to 1 or 2 to 1. So you could do that much less.
Further more if I’m thinking of the bars of mouth as the contact point with a snaffle I’m already doing to much. A true feel should come with a lift of the rein, without a pull. The horse may pull on me, but I never pull on them. Feel of, feel for, then the horse can feel of and for you, so you can be together as one.
Last thought, anything to do with leverage has more authority, which means we need to better( much better) understand our responsibility to the horse and the folks that mentor us.
And sometimes they aren’t mentoring us. They just know we will do things they won’t.
this is why u get a bit fitter when u get a new horse... that way they come with 10 -15 different bits for 2/3 headpieces so u can see where the problem stems from... the pressure is different but u shouldnt ride ur horse with ur hands, their suppleness should come from the back not from the front
A bit fitter?
Do you have a video on how to transition a horse from a snaffle to curb?
Ryan, I really like your philosophy, if I could make one suggestion....please keep your reins off the ground when bridling. I have seem bed things happen when they are on the ground. Keep up the good work.
Thank you! Will do
Ah Ha....My new gelding seems to hate every snaffle bit I try..Chews on all of them and lately is really acting aggravated. Thanks for the video. Going to try him in a shanked bit and see if that works better for him!
Both of his headstalls have the same mouthpiece, which is a low port Myler. (From the video notes.) So the only difference between the two headstalls is that one had shanks. Billy Allen mouthpieces are the same as the Myler and are much less expensive. All the best!
Ryanair love your training , I have a question ,the bridle is that a Miller ?
The video notes say the mouthpiece is a Myler. Billy Allen mouthpieces are the same style and much less expensive. All the best!
Any suggestions for a horse that argues with a snaffle and a shank bit?
I liked the video! I have a horse that fights a snaffle bit a little and roots a little. I will admit that I have been guilty of being a little heavy handed so I'm trying to do less pulling on my horse. I have a "training" bit like you show in the video, I just never gave it a try. Thanks!
What is the difference from collection in the body of that the head comes down 🙂 thanks
I am absolutely getting to understand that one type of bit/communication tool on a horse's head does not fit all!! Literally and figuratively! I am learning that different situations call for different riding gear. I know now why people end up with a box full of bits and tack!
He did say that the mouthpiece for both headstalls is the same. The video notes say the mouthpiece is a low port Myler so the only difference between the two headstalls is that one mouthpiece had shanks and the other one didn't. And the horse reacted favorably to the one with shanks for the same mouthpiece. Billy Allen bits are the same style as the Myler and are much less expensive, both offering significant tongue relief to the horse. All the best!
Hi I feel my horse has a similar issue, can you tel me what kind of bridle/shank bit you are using in this video, thank you.
Very honest and helpful. I starter w a tom thumb when i knew nothing. Switched to a comfort snaffle a year later and while that has helped i still feel my horse brace and fight me when i am lifting the rein. Both my snaffle and shank are low ports so i’m considering a correction or JR cowhorse. Any advice?
id try a bosal, your horse might not be too responsive in its mouth, so id try bosal first, if that doesnt work maybe some type of hackamore. If neither of those work then id try a jr cowhorse.
Beautiful video; thank you for the great information. Have an OTTB w issues bracing against the snaffle so going to try the Argentine and see if that is something he likes.
Great 👍, I really enjoy making them. Appreciate it
Bits are bad you know better
Can you do a one rein stop with a bridle,shank bit
Once the horse knows it but I wouldn’t recommend teaching it in a leverage bit
Ok I’m confused, why are you calling the curb /leverage/ shank bit a bridle’? Don’t both the bits attach to the bridle (head stall)?
He's probably using the term "bridle" cause a bridle horse is one that works from a shanked or leverage bit. So you're quite right in saying that both bits attach to the headstall. All the best!
@@gregs8736 thanks for your reply!
Great example. Can you share what the brand of this bit is? I am interested in purchasing. Want to get the correct one. Thank you.
It’s a myler Level 2 I believe
my horse has been ridden in a lot of different things but bitless is his best fit so far 😂 always a ton more anxious with something in his mounth and very very bracy no matter what ive put in its just been a no go. riding him in a ropehalter currently and he is so relaxed and soft. really follows you well. where i am bitless is so stigmated everyone thinks im crazy and wont have any control of my horse 🤦🏻♀️ they dont realise i have more control of him now than ive ever had before because he just doesnt brace against the rope halter like he do with a bit.. and he is overall a lot calmer with no bit idk?? havent tried a bit in a while now though maybe it would work better now that we have set some routine but like while it works i wanna use it because its so easy to just tie the leadrope to reins and just.. go.. 🤣
I see the improvement. My question is.....can u still flex him to the right or left..... can u still disengage his hindquarters using a shank? Does it have to be a loose joint shank to do so? Can anyone tell me please?
Yeah, you can still do all of those things. Ideally it’s on a loose join shank bit. But if I need todo a lot of those things I would stay in a snaffle.
Any recommendations for a training bridle/shank bit to start on a new horse used to a snaffle?
Both of his headstalls are using the same mouthpiece, which in the video notes is a low port Myler that eliminates the nutcracker effect of the typical snaffle. Billy Allen mouthpieces are the same style and are much less expensive than the Mylers.They can come in a snaffle version, or with regular shanks or shanks that have D rings for four reins, making the Billy Allen an excellent transition bit. All the best!
Wish I could see the actual shank up close
He's definitely yielding better with the shank. Your snaffle isn't what I think of when I think of snaffle - never seen one like that.
The video notes say the mouthpiece (for both) is a low port Myler which offers significant tongue relief to the horse and eliminates the nutcracker effect of the typical snaffle. Billy Allen bits are the same style of mouthpiece and are much less expensive. All the best!
Man is he pretty!
Could you, tell the Breed of the horse, if it is gaited or not.
He’s a paint horse
@@ryanrosehorsemanship Do you know the Breed of the Horse, not the color
@@priscillawilliams7142 there is also a breed called a paint horse,
@@ryanrosehorsemanship ok, I am so sorry for your lose, I know how you feel, my 72 inch Flat sod just passed, I had to collect my self, we had a similar relationship.
A real partner.. Thanks for sharing, it helps.
If I had a video, I could.
I will you what i think . Your no FRAUD like alot of so called trainers out there
SOMetimes the metal in a bit can bother a horse to distraction aluminum to dry copper to drooly. SOMetimes when nothing else is handy I'll add a strap or even some baling twine to a snaffle over the top of his nose. Ith that I can lower my hands a bit and it feels more like a halter or hackamore. If I raise my hands it feels more like a snaffle. If I have a horse that is having trouble making a transition or I am not quite sure where his head is at I'll try that first. just to get an idea if I don't have a bridle handy. I am a "less is more guy. If I can work all day on a horse in nothing but halter, he may never even see a bit... most of this stuff is just fashion like these novices riding around in flat hats spurs with a spade stuffed into a snaffle horse.
You needed to put some sort of Martingale on that snaffle bridle. They all put their heads up like that. When you pull out a snaffle. And of course, he's dropping his nose when you put that curb. Shank Bridal on he's giving to the curb chain. People really need to be careful when they watch these videos and try this at home.
Can you please explain a bit (ha,ha) about what adding a martingale to the snaffle will do?
Here’s how I use mine: a set of reins through the running martingale to the bit serves the same purpose as the shanked bit: it asks the horse to round up his neck and keep his nose in.
The reins attached directly to the snaffle bring the neck/head up and are used for direction cues, moving the parts of the horse where you want them (positioning), for support, to aid balance.
So I’m riding my Saddlebred basically in the equivalent of a double bridle with two sets of reins but only one bit.
Interested to hear your thoughts: same, different?
Thanks!!
@@michelleford7392 yea thats about right you just want to adjust it not to make the rings to low find the happy medium, iv ben in saddlebreds my hole life actually i have other breeds also i hope that explains easy enough on here anyway , any more questions please ask
@@michelleford7392 Oh my gosh I do saddlebred’s in saddle seat also and that’s exactly what I was thinking I was going to write a note that clearly the horse isn’t very tall and he’s big and if you pull directly on a snaffle you’re asking the horses neck to come up. I was going to say they skipped the whole martingale issue or even a draw rein would work.. a lot of western people just go directly to the shanked bits!
A draw rein with a snaffle would work also! I use a slow copper twist driving but with two reins for training. One direct rein and one through the martingale,!! My horses always have great mouths and the curb bit with a full bridle is mainly just for shows
Aren't both bridles, well, bridles? Why are you calling the one with the shank bit a bridle, but the one with the snaffle a snaffle, like not a bridle? Confusing.
Your right, they are both bridles. one has a snaffle bit and one has a shanked bit.
@@ryanrosehorsemanship Thanks for the clarification. I find it interesting that a horse would decide to prefer one over another, but it's good to know.
@@virginiamoss7045 horses are all different
@@tjadventures9163 Yes, just like people.
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Cow horse
omg ok i love this video but we needto get one thing straight!!!! a "bridle" is anything that has a bit on it you should be saying snaffle bit vs shanked bit the entire time by saying a bridle you will confuse people to think that a snaffle bit on a headstall isnot a bridle
If people dont try more than one bit on a new horse they are crazy
The choice should be 'do I ride my horse in a traditional hackamore or a rope halter'. You are suggesting a choice between one form of pain bit or a more aggressive pain bit. Leveraged bit is a multiplier of pressure applied. I do not want to control my horse through pain.
Not all horses like hackamores, and some hackamores can be quite harsh. Again, one size does not fit all.
@@rebeldown771 'Not all horses like hackamores' If the horse properly prepared, it is generally not an issue.
no. Snaffels and leveraged bits feel very different to a horse, because they apply pressure differently.And yes horses like some things more than others.Some horses can't stand pressure on their nore, some don't like it in the mouth. Others like bit with copper, others with rubber....
@@johanna7096 Bits are pain compliance devices. I choose to ride my horses through finesse not fear, with mutual trust and respect. The horse wants to do as I ask, not being made to do the task. Big difference.
@@gerrycoleman7290 well that's fair, but please remember that bitless does not automatically means no pain. A bitless bridle van be as painful as any bit.
Horrible picture - you can see the tension in the horses neck, the poll and the jaw. The riders reins are long and his elbows are behind his body. I didn't waste my time watching the video.
but you wasted it writing a useless comment! This is just my humor
Or you could ya know, actually TEACH the horse how to respond to the pressure rather than bitting up? 🤦♀️
This guys horses respond better to pressure better than 90% of horses, do u even bother watching his other vids??? Ur the one that needs to learn something 🤦♀️ Also this isn’t “bitting up”, bitting up is when your stupid and get harsher bits cause you can’t “control” it, when ur experienced and actually know what ur doing and the horse is well trained a shank is better because it really shows the connection and makes the cues clearer and not using a snaffle creating shaggy connection messing up and confusing a well trained horse.
@@lanamyers_101 thanks 👍
What is the snaffle on if not a bridle? Just immediately makes me distrust anything you say. Yeah disagree if dressage horses spend most of their time in a Snaffle western horses should also be able to do the same. Find a Snaffle that works better.
He doesn't prefer it he just can't fight it as easily. At least I know not to trust the channel.
So you admit to practicing Rollkur? Yikes.
Shanks have a purpose for highly educated horses. This horse isn't highly educated.
But western so I shouldn't have expected anything actually useful.
Its a headstall not a bridle. A bridle is a western term that has a leverage bit. No highly educated horses are not the norm due to advantages that most of us have never had. Not everyone shows or competes. Not all disciplines ride with contact. Most good western riders ride with their legs and seat not with their hands.