Yeah, it's hard to blame Peter when, like, the fall WOULD have killed her on impact (even water), Goblin just expressed it in a supremely weird way. It's like blaming an EMT for the death of someone who got shot in the chest. Failing to save a dying person is not the same as killing someone.
One thing that makes Green Lantern Vol 3 No.54 worst is its follow up. The two issues immediately following it are the tie-in's to Zero Hour, meaning before Kyle can literally get the body out of the fridge, Alan Scott (the Golden Age Green Lantern) turns up out of nowhere, gets in a fight with Kyle, and basically says something along the lines "Your Green Lantern now, Hal Jordan went nuts, your gonna have to fight him, bye" and then leaves. Following that is the 0 issue because Zero Hour, which features Kyle fighting Hal. The issue after that, Green Lantern 56 has him on an alien planet following Zero Hour where he ends up sleeping with an alien (just three issues after his girlfriend died), who then proceeds to commit suicide (because I guess having one dead women wasn't enough). Oh and 2 issues after that is when he starts dating Donna Troy of the Titans... which was also around the time they killed Donna's son, with no buildup and no real reaction from Donna about her son dying. Keep in mind this is all less than year after Hal Jordan was Green Lantern, less than a year after the controversial 'Emerald Twilight' stuff which had Hal inexplicably turn evil, making long time fans very cross. They had to sell fans on Kyle Rayner with a good first impression, and we got exactly the opposite of that.
Holy sh***! Wow... I still have this story in a tpb I bought as a teenager and the book ended with this issue and I never knew what came afterwards... Damn. I think it's better I never knew until I read your comment, because that's super dissapointing, and makes Kyle look like complete douche
@@Shinmslit’s funny, the original trade never included the last page of the issue with Superman and Merton so you were really had to find your way with the series and trades. Personally, Kyle grew a lot more later on, especially with the Judd Winick run and Morrison’s JLA
I remember reading the trades and then the issues (long after the end of the series) and being a bit flabbergasted by the whole thing. Personally, Kyle grew a lot more later on, especially with the Judd Winick run and Morrison’s JLA.
@@Shinmsl the series was written to be very fast paced and deliberate at the time. Kyle was a very young and new character dealing and learning how to be a hero like Mark in the early days of Invincible. It isn't until afterwards that they take time to develop him and have him reflect on his relationship with Alex and moving forward
It was hardly inexplicable. He was shown having a psychotic break as a result of the destruction of Coast City. This was later retconned to be demonic possession but it was clear what was happening at the time.
Ron Marz was always transparent about his intention with Kyle Rayner was to introduce a "Peter Parker" for the DC universe. No surprise he decided that Rayner needed his own Death of Gwen Stacy.
Kevin Smith was on a web series with Deborah Ann Wolf in which she runs a role playing game. He had never played one before and in the pregame chat jokingly said something along the lines of "I hope you don't kill me". She replied something along the lines of then they'd be even.
_The Boondocks_ joke about fridging with Agent Jack Flowers' girlfriends all getting killed more over-the-top is hilarious. That shows how the trope can be fumbled so bad that it becomes a parody.
As a Kyle Green Lantern fan, I really hate that most people only know him for the fridge thing. He was usually a fun character and his constructs were some of the best.
@@itsnotme987 Honestly it's a matter of opinion. I didn't mind it but at the same time I think it lacked impact because it was so early in the run. I didn't know the characters that well yet. 90's Green Lantern was interesting though, partially because it did alternate between light and dark tones so often.
@user-lo3bw3lc2e from watching their video I get that a lot happened early. Probably would have hit everyone better if they waited to kill her. I just don't understand why it's only women they focus on . Also the losing someone is just part of the genre. Also I thin kyle was the first gl I ever saw or read. I'm with you that his constructs were the best
@@itsnotme987 The "fridging" trope focuses on women because Gail Simone came up with it, and her whole point was to highlight the pattern in comic books of killing or maiming female characters for shock value and to advance a male character's story. Any individual example might be a well-written story on its own, but when the same thing keeps happening and in a disproportionate way to female characters, it becomes a problem.
The argument can be made that Uncle Ben was also invented to die, but he "lasted" for the one issue... Since Kyle was still technically in his origins at that point when Alex passed, it can be interpreted the same way, just less truncated. Let us not forget, Bendis when writing Ultimate Spider-Man let Uncle Ben be around for 5 issues before he met his fate. However, the gruesomeness of Alex's death was not warranted... It probably would have helped if Alex's death was due to Kyle showboating or not taking a situation seriously and Alex dying because of that would have sent the message Ron Marz intended in a much deeper way.
Green Lantern is ABSOLUTELY wrongbox material. There's so many examples of fridging in the big 2 that there could honestly be a sequel to this episode, I nominate the death of Luan Harper in Cry for Justice.
Yeah hearing that she was made to die, and then you stick her death in a Zero Hour, TIe-in Side Story? It's just awful. Heck with the fridge door off that art looks dumb, it looks goofy the way she's stuffed in there
"Coming down from his LSD addiction" is the funniest shit I've heard all day 😂 For those who aren't aware and think im making fun of an addict or something. 1, psychedelics are not addiction forming drugs. And 2, it's literally impossible to have a comedown or have after effects after using psychedelics even if you take a whole bunch all the time lmao. No, I'm not advocating that people use psychedelics, just sharing some info lol
Great episode of GBU, glad to see it return. I never knew that Ron Marz designed Alex just for the sole purpose of her dying, that sucks. I remember reading that issue when I was doing a Kyle Rayner deep dive and I was actually beginning to think Alex’s character could go somewhere, just for her to die.
I think Gwen's death is still up to interpretation even with the snap onomatopoeia. If she had died before, her neck would still make that sound, unless Peter took so long to find Gobby.
A few things: They did ship Gwen off to Europe for a time (during which, according to JMS, she fell into Norman Osborn's bed) and for a while it seemed she might never return. This always felt like an attempt to be rid of her but Peter was never going to be open to taking up with Mary Jane if he didn't have some closure. In this case, closure ended up being a closed casket. (Broken necks can be so unsightly.) At least until Miles Warren had his way. While I had read some already, the first issue of a Spider-man series I owned was the issue where Peter gets back from France to find a living Gwen Stacy in his apartment. Women in apartments! The horror! The Spider-man and Daredevil stories had another aspect of the two leads being characters ethically determined to never kill. Beat someone senseless, OK. But not kill. In both cases the heroes are driven to a snapping point by the deaths of hugely important people in their lives. Contrast with somebody like Wolverine, who'd announce his intent had already been to kill the offender but now there needed to be massive suffering included. Spider-man desire for vengeance was alleviated by Osborn offing himself. something the first movie lacked. As for Daredevil, this was the second time he'd been on the verge of killing Bullseye. The first after bullseye had killed Elektra but was left crippled and helpless in a hospital bed while Matt wrestled with what to do. Looking back, and considering all the mayhem Bullseye went on to perform after being restored, Matt should killed him in that hospital bed. I always felt Gail Simone was a bit full of crap in her essay. These are comic books. The lead characters are eternally alone, other than the company of other superhumans because the universe (aka the editors) is cruel and needs the character to remain interesting in the eyes of the target audience. Such is the plight of characters who age about a decade after being continuously in print for 60 years. They're on the suffering merry-go-round for eternity. A few years ago, Simone got mad at me on Twitter because she was berating Adam Baldwin for not being the person she'd fantasized him to be and instead being unashamedly opposed to much of her politics. She acted as if he should know who she was, and I linked the essay in the thread. I also mentioned that one of the nastiest things I ever saw done to a female character was in fact written by Simone. In 'Secret Six' she had a character, wildly altered from the original version as to make one wonder why a new character wasn't created, inflict on wonder woman the vivid memory of her execution. (She got better.) This was so traumatic it left Diana in drooling catatonia. Simone got pissed and blocked my then account.
Not only do I vote to send _Lantern_ to the Wrong Box, I also suggest the Wrong Box be decorated to look like a refrigerator to emphasize that it contains comics that are egregious
Holy moly this is the greatest day ever. I got some new comics, (including the new uncanny X-Men #1) my long awaited copy of Spider-Man 2 AND THERE’S TWO COMIC POP EPISODES IN ONE WEEK?! BEST BIRTHDAY EVER!!
@@deaconpaddock5753 "including the new Uncanny X-Men #1" That's funny because it's written by Gail Simone, who literally was the person who came up with the "Women In Refrigerators" trope.
I feel like Death of Gwen Stacy at least has the sheer amount of history backing it up (meaning she was around for a decent amount of time before dying), and how much it informs the character of Spider-Man moving forward. Like, this is the 2nd most defining moment in his career as Spider-Man, bar none. The thought of her literally haunts him. Idk. I like the story of The Death of Gwen Stacy. It makes me sad, mad, and the weird hollow feeling of nothing being solved when Norman impales himself
Good is Gwen from Spider-Man, Bad is Karen Page cuz it's more Joe BS, Ugly is Alex because this was simply fucking gross in all aspects. Her being made to die, her being intentionally written to be a good character solely to be more missed by readers, the very gross manner her death was handled. Alex shouldn't have been killed period, Gwen arguably only truly became beloved after she died, and Karen was just considered a mess management didn't care about anymore.
I love Ron Marz's GL run... but that death was so pointless. You didn't even get to the part that pisses me off the most, because that's what follows: he moves to New York and IMMEDIATELY starts dating Donna Troy. It's very fast, and I don't like it. He never gets to grieve her. So why kill her? I hadn't heard that Marz had created Alex to die, but that he tried her out and didn't like her. So by that story, her death was more a reset like, "Oh, decided no on Alex." But I may be wrong on that.
it was that issue of Green Lantern that 1) made me stop reading GL for a LONG while and 2) give us Gail Simone, she was just a fan at the time and wrote about this comic and well the rest is history so, while GL #54 was THE WORST something good came out of, Gail Simone working in comics. YES!!! it should be in the Wrongbox!!!
Great episode. Something I'm surprised wasn't mentioned although it would open a whole other can of worms, is that Bullseye already had practice killing a love interest of Daredevil. I can't think of many other instances in comics where a hero loses two love interests and both are killed by the same villain, plus that first instance I find interesting since the death is treated in the moment as so fleeting since it's all from Bullseye's perspective.
Love to see you guys back at it again, GBU is a Comic Pop classic in my estimation just like Back Issues. And interesting topic to come back on, I have never much been one to agree with the whole 'Women in Refrigerators' conception but its known so I guess makes for a good video. I would have put the Daredevil issue in the wrongbox, having editorial interfere and set a mandate to kill a long established character not just for character growth of a main character, but on purpose to make a new brand seem more mature. All of that seems way more in line with the core conception that 'women in refrigerators' is trying to hit at. I agree with the reasons you all gave for why the death of gwen stacy doesn't really fit. But I do think if you can look past the fact that it is where the term came from, that the Green Lantern issue is not really 'fridging', Inventing a character who is not going to be too much of one and is there to die in the origins of another character who will mostly gain the story/character growth from that moment, is something that happens to both male and female characters and is not really some kind of problematic thing.
I was honestly one of the people who thought, for years, all the way up to this video (even tho I think I've watched y'alls episode covering it) that Kyle's gf was dismembered 😬
The part of the movie 'Logan' I truly hated was the telegraphed deaths of Eriq La Salle and family. Logan's first instinct to not endanger these people with the presence of his group was entirely correct.
it has been a long time since i read that GL book when it came out but i seem to remember that Alex had a better grasp of what a hero should be than Kyle did. Maybe Kyle should have been the one in the fridge and Alex get the ring.
I know that it's a lot of work for guests to prepare for these episodes, but I really enjoy them They're what first led me down into the seemingly endless chasm that is comicpop content
I personally think Green Lantern isn’t Wrong Box worthy simply because I compare it to Rob Leifeld Captain America and Medieval Spawn and think, “It’s not as bad as those two.”
Ben and Tiffany’s faces had me laughing so hard when Sal mentioned Sins Past, LMFAO😂 If you haven’t seen it I highly recommend anyone to watch the back issues episode on Sins Past, one of their best and funniest shows.
My problem with Karen dying is Elektra did it better. No thoughts on Gwen as it happened way before my time but I wish they just left the character alone after that. The Kyle GL death doesn't really bother me either. Its maybe a bad story but way worse has happened in comics than a dead woman in a fridge. I think the whole "Fridged" trope is overblown tbh
I remember when I first read that issue of green lantern and was so sad when. Alex died, Kyle was and still is my favorite lantern. Also, I always liked how they always brought Alex up whenever Kyle got into a relationship, it showed that he did not forget her and that he was always worried it would happen again but that's me
Honestly I got to give it to the green lantern book. it originated the term. It gave the character little agency and its not like they have reconned her to have more agency like gwen, they invented the character to get fridged too which some how seems worse then the other two cause at least the other two were established characters there for actual real reasons and not just made to die. It made her fight in her underwear to which some how seems worse cause at least the other two died fully dressed with their boots on and like you said about the implications about the bad guy undeessing her and dressing her in something else. Just all of it feels icky.
Green Lantern 54 was the first Green Lantern comic I ever read, just randomly picked up at a comic shop as a pre-teen because I liked the cover, had no clue what it was about. I didn't realize Alex and Kyle were new characters, and thought they just killed off a major character who'd been around for 54 issues
I really like this direction of the show. You can highlight multiple issues, and hearing Sal talk about a specific trope and history of comic books is what draws me in the most. And it feels different enough from ComicTropes to me, where I can still enjoy both
Super fun deccusion!!! What’s your thoughts on how much individual comic tie ins should be in one event? How should a reading order be in a comic series? Like the X-Men Krakoa Era
I really liked how they "adapted" this Daredevil comic in Season 3 of the Netflix show, in the episode where Bulseye and Daredevil fight in the church. Even if you are not a comic fan, you know something is up when most of the episode is a flashback sequence to Karen's life, clearly setting up her death. And what makes it better is when SPOILERS she doesn't actually die. I think it was a subversion of expectations done really well.
Fridging is a literary trope in which a character exists for the sole purpose of being killed, assaulted, or otherwise harmed in order to serve as an inciting incident that motivates another character's journey. Fridging is most common with female characters, but male characters can be “fridged” too. So Uncle Ben was fridged. Johnny Blaze's step father was fridged. In Buffy Willows girlfriend Tara is fridged. Han Solo was fridged TWICE once frozen and once stabbed. In Harley Quinn 31 her boyfriend Mason is kidnapped, tortured and then killed because she went up against a very bad person ...IE he was fridged. Sometimes large groups of characters will be fridged like Morlocks. Or in movie Scanners they introduce a group of Scanners who's only purpose was to reveal friendly like minded individuals who are then all fridged. A character that existed well before thoughts of fridging them can still be fridged like Gambit was killed so Rogue can have a whole character arc in Xmen 97 .Generally fridging happens to elevate a villain (like Joker for Jason or Bane for Alfred ). A lot of times that characters matter to the main character in a visceral way. So yes it might be a wife/child/girlfriend because that is who matters to main character. With Gwen Stacy, before her fridging, Capt Stacy was fridged. Side note: I also consider destroying a character's character just to make it a plot for the main character a "fridging". So if a character does something so completely out of character that it destroys that character for future use...just to help story for main character...that to me is a fridging too. So Hal Jordan was Fridged when he killed off GL Corps. Or if they spend time making a character likeable just to reveal they are a bad person. But that is my own opinion. The having a characters purpose to be killed, hurt or tortured in some way for the purpose of character or story motivation has long been a successful trope. And it's male or female. dog or child or robot or horse etc.
I didn't read all of this but I'm pretty sure we agree. Having characters die for motivation for the main character. It's a pretty old standard. Thing in writing.I don't understand why this is one of those weird gender issue things
@@itsnotme987 you don't have to read my essay. I just gave a whole lot of examples of non female characters "fridged" and characters that were "fridged" to help story of a female character. (The groom and the wedding party for the Bride in Kill Bill).
@@itsnotme987Because at the time Gail Simone coined the term, she was highlighting a problematic pattern in superhero comics as a whole, where "character killed/maimed to advance the main character's story rather than their own" was common and disproportionately affected female characters. Any single example might be a great story on its own; the problem was the repeated pattern and the inequality in the ways female characters were treated.
@@itsnotme987 I don't get that answer. What point? You said you didn't understand why it was a "one of those weird gender issue thing", I gave you an explanation.
I read that GL story within a tpb that collected from his first issue to THAT issue. I was 13 , I honestly had a bit of a crush on Alex just by reading those issues, I was never a fan of Hal Jordan but the concept of Green Lantern was always cool to me. So you could say was the ideal reader for the book. Holy f@&# sh** It shocked me so much that I went really to full denial at first, I really thought she fainted and didn't understand what even happenned in the fridge on my first reading. It was super disturbing and it brought me back to that pstd-inducing comic "death in the family" that I read being like 9 years old... And I really thought she was all broken to getting stuffed in the damned frigde. I think it's not only the fact that she was horribly murdered but also that the jarring shift in tones through out this one comic, because it goes from lovey-dovey couples stuff, wacky scifi shenanigans, and then something out a grindhouse movie. It's just too much
To me Gwen Stacy's death has had a more tangible and interesting effect on the character and while certain stories have messed with it and diluted for a while it turned Gwen into a strong symbol that extended her legacy far more than being put on a shelf or broken up with would have and it led to great character development for Mary Jane. Plus the full story had two deaths effect Peter in her and Norman plus Harry's struggles it wasn't just Gwen dies to make Peter sad unlike the Green Lantern stuff.
Fun fact; spider man had a cold during that fight, he was fighting in canada in the issue before and got soaked, no one ever brings that up. Worst day ever, after the uncle ben thing. But before Aunt May gets fucking sniped. lmao.
Tom Taylors nightwing #90 has Barbara Gordon address the trope in a funny scene with a refrigerated truck involved. After killing joke she's justifiably annoyed its still a thing.
I hope that one of the next episodes you guys do is on Marvel UK. I would LOVE to see a Death’s Head head-off. I’ve skimmed a bit and I know there’s events like Battle Tide and Death 3 (Death cubed.) Would also be funny to see you guys talk about the Sleeze Brothers.
On Spider-Man, I will note that MJ had been around almost as long as Gwen (ASM 42 vs 31). The bigger thing was that Stan preferred Gwen, and just wanted MJ as a background character, "the other woman" so to speak. However, most fans at the time, including Conway who was only nineteen (!!) when he took over the book, loved MJ and found Gwen boring. So Conway killed her. Then of course, because fans are fickle and not a monolith, everyone freaked out, so Stan deflected all blame onto Conway (it's most likely that Stan approved the issue even though he claims he did not). Stan then ordered Conway to bring Gwen back... so Conway did, but as a clone. By this time, enough sentiment had swung into Conway's favor that the death stuck.
I think that because Tiffany seems legitimately upset and disturbed by the GL issue, it should go in the wrong box. Yes, obviously the death is supposed to be disturbing but it's disturbing in a bad way, where it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth and is more disrespectful than sad. Plus like Sal said, this one issue started a whole discussion on the treatment of women in comics to this day. So I vote wrong box.
It wasn’t even 8 issues in that Alex was killed. Kyle only became GL at the end of GL #50. In less than 4-5 issues, Alex was introduced and promptly killed off. Kyle is my favorite hero but his introduction wasn’t the best.
I have thoughts: FIRST ….the first to be fridged were Steve Trevor and Larry Lance. Slightly before or right around the time of Gwen Second….I was FURIOUS…that Deadpool 2 was spoiled just with no thought. A huge plot point and people were just spoiling away.
Did y'all overlook that the GL issue was titled, "FORCED ENTRY?" - obviously a play on Major Force, but man ... of all the puns one could've made with his name...
Tiffany’s pained smile when Sal proclaimed “MURDER HER UNCEREMONIOUSLY!” got me.
With Gwen, I completely blame the crazy guy who kidnapped her and pushed her off the highest part of a bridge
Yeah, it's hard to blame Peter when, like, the fall WOULD have killed her on impact (even water), Goblin just expressed it in a supremely weird way. It's like blaming an EMT for the death of someone who got shot in the chest. Failing to save a dying person is not the same as killing someone.
One thing that makes Green Lantern Vol 3 No.54 worst is its follow up.
The two issues immediately following it are the tie-in's to Zero Hour, meaning before Kyle can literally get the body out of the fridge, Alan Scott (the Golden Age Green Lantern) turns up out of nowhere, gets in a fight with Kyle, and basically says something along the lines "Your Green Lantern now, Hal Jordan went nuts, your gonna have to fight him, bye" and then leaves. Following that is the 0 issue because Zero Hour, which features Kyle fighting Hal.
The issue after that, Green Lantern 56 has him on an alien planet following Zero Hour where he ends up sleeping with an alien (just three issues after his girlfriend died), who then proceeds to commit suicide (because I guess having one dead women wasn't enough). Oh and 2 issues after that is when he starts dating Donna Troy of the Titans... which was also around the time they killed Donna's son, with no buildup and no real reaction from Donna about her son dying.
Keep in mind this is all less than year after Hal Jordan was Green Lantern, less than a year after the controversial 'Emerald Twilight' stuff which had Hal inexplicably turn evil, making long time fans very cross. They had to sell fans on Kyle Rayner with a good first impression, and we got exactly the opposite of that.
Holy sh***! Wow...
I still have this story in a tpb I bought as a teenager and the book ended with this issue and I never knew what came afterwards... Damn. I think it's better I never knew until I read your comment, because that's super dissapointing, and makes Kyle look like complete douche
@@Shinmslit’s funny, the original trade never included the last page of the issue with Superman and Merton so you were really had to find your way with the series and trades. Personally, Kyle grew a lot more later on, especially with the Judd Winick run and Morrison’s JLA
I remember reading the trades and then the issues (long after the end of the series) and being a bit flabbergasted by the whole thing. Personally, Kyle grew a lot more later on, especially with the Judd Winick run and Morrison’s JLA.
@@Shinmsl the series was written to be very fast paced and deliberate at the time. Kyle was a very young and new character dealing and learning how to be a hero like Mark in the early days of Invincible. It isn't until afterwards that they take time to develop him and have him reflect on his relationship with Alex and moving forward
It was hardly inexplicable. He was shown having a psychotic break as a result of the destruction of Coast City. This was later retconned to be demonic possession but it was clear what was happening at the time.
GBU IS BACK! I love the idea of doing books around tropes!
That Daredevil story Back Issue is still one of my favorite episodes
I really hope to see a GBU on Marvel UK.
@@gamergabe18 that would be cool!
I think, just for the sake of it being the originator of the name “Women in Refrigerators,” Green Lantern deserves to go in the wrong box.
Ron Marz was always transparent about his intention with Kyle Rayner was to introduce a "Peter Parker" for the DC universe. No surprise he decided that Rayner needed his own Death of Gwen Stacy.
Kevin Smith was on a web series with Deborah Ann Wolf in which she runs a role playing game. He had never played one before and in the pregame chat jokingly said something along the lines of "I hope you don't kill me". She replied something along the lines of then they'd be even.
Double the comicpop content this week?????? What a wonderful life this is
_The Boondocks_ joke about fridging with Agent Jack Flowers' girlfriends all getting killed more over-the-top is hilarious. That shows how the trope can be fumbled so bad that it becomes a parody.
As a Kyle Green Lantern fan, I really hate that most people only know him for the fridge thing. He was usually a fun character and his constructs were some of the best.
Also isn't the "fridging" everyone complains about a pretty cool dark scene
@@itsnotme987 Honestly it's a matter of opinion. I didn't mind it but at the same time I think it lacked impact because it was so early in the run. I didn't know the characters that well yet. 90's Green Lantern was interesting though, partially because it did alternate between light and dark tones so often.
@user-lo3bw3lc2e from watching their video I get that a lot happened early. Probably would have hit everyone better if they waited to kill her. I just don't understand why it's only women they focus on . Also the losing someone is just part of the genre. Also I thin kyle was the first gl I ever saw or read. I'm with you that his constructs were the best
@@itsnotme987 The "fridging" trope focuses on women because Gail Simone came up with it, and her whole point was to highlight the pattern in comic books of killing or maiming female characters for shock value and to advance a male character's story. Any individual example might be a well-written story on its own, but when the same thing keeps happening and in a disproportionate way to female characters, it becomes a problem.
“It’s September”
“Get ready…..for the Fall😂”
The argument can be made that Uncle Ben was also invented to die, but he "lasted" for the one issue...
Since Kyle was still technically in his origins at that point when Alex passed, it can be interpreted the same way, just less truncated.
Let us not forget, Bendis when writing Ultimate Spider-Man let Uncle Ben be around for 5 issues before he met his fate.
However, the gruesomeness of Alex's death was not warranted...
It probably would have helped if Alex's death was due to Kyle showboating or not taking a situation seriously and Alex dying because of that would have sent the message Ron Marz intended in a much deeper way.
I couldn't think of a better wrong box candidate than the one that started fridging
Tropes aren’t really bad per say it’s all about the execution at least in my opinion.
Green Lantern is ABSOLUTELY wrongbox material. There's so many examples of fridging in the big 2 that there could honestly be a sequel to this episode, I nominate the death of Luan Harper in Cry for Justice.
Yeah hearing that she was made to die, and then you stick her death in a Zero Hour, TIe-in Side Story? It's just awful. Heck with the fridge door off that art looks dumb, it looks goofy the way she's stuffed in there
I’m so glad to see gbu back. Rough topic but well worth talking about. Thanks for all you guys and gal do!
"Coming down from his LSD addiction" is the funniest shit I've heard all day 😂
For those who aren't aware and think im making fun of an addict or something. 1, psychedelics are not addiction forming drugs. And 2, it's literally impossible to have a comedown or have after effects after using psychedelics even if you take a whole bunch all the time lmao. No, I'm not advocating that people use psychedelics, just sharing some info lol
lol Love the insight lol Don't forget, we're talking about what's in the actual comic lol
i had the same thought except i do advocate for the use of Psychedelics
Great episode of GBU, glad to see it return. I never knew that Ron Marz designed Alex just for the sole purpose of her dying, that sucks. I remember reading that issue when I was doing a Kyle Rayner deep dive and I was actually beginning to think Alex’s character could go somewhere, just for her to die.
I think Gwen's death is still up to interpretation even with the snap onomatopoeia. If she had died before, her neck would still make that sound, unless Peter took so long to find Gobby.
Yeah but because of the retcons we definitively know she was alive up until the neck snap
Thanks Slott @@georgebaynard4096
@@georgebaynard4096 Until they retcon it again.
@@markporter2108 I'm surprised Nick Spencer didn't try and retcon that
A few things:
They did ship Gwen off to Europe for a time (during which, according to JMS, she fell into Norman Osborn's bed) and for a while it seemed she might never return. This always felt like an attempt to be rid of her but Peter was never going to be open to taking up with Mary Jane if he didn't have some closure. In this case, closure ended up being a closed casket. (Broken necks can be so unsightly.) At least until Miles Warren had his way. While I had read some already, the first issue of a Spider-man series I owned was the issue where Peter gets back from France to find a living Gwen Stacy in his apartment. Women in apartments! The horror!
The Spider-man and Daredevil stories had another aspect of the two leads being characters ethically determined to never kill. Beat someone senseless, OK. But not kill. In both cases the heroes are driven to a snapping point by the deaths of hugely important people in their lives. Contrast with somebody like Wolverine, who'd announce his intent had already been to kill the offender but now there needed to be massive suffering included. Spider-man desire for vengeance was alleviated by Osborn offing himself. something the first movie lacked. As for Daredevil, this was the second time he'd been on the verge of killing Bullseye. The first after bullseye had killed Elektra but was left crippled and helpless in a hospital bed while Matt wrestled with what to do. Looking back, and considering all the mayhem Bullseye went on to perform after being restored, Matt should killed him in that hospital bed.
I always felt Gail Simone was a bit full of crap in her essay. These are comic books. The lead characters are eternally alone, other than the company of other superhumans because the universe (aka the editors) is cruel and needs the character to remain interesting in the eyes of the target audience. Such is the plight of characters who age about a decade after being continuously in print for 60 years. They're on the suffering merry-go-round for eternity. A few years ago, Simone got mad at me on Twitter because she was berating Adam Baldwin for not being the person she'd fantasized him to be and instead being unashamedly opposed to much of her politics. She acted as if he should know who she was, and I linked the essay in the thread. I also mentioned that one of the nastiest things I ever saw done to a female character was in fact written by Simone. In 'Secret Six' she had a character, wildly altered from the original version as to make one wonder why a new character wasn't created, inflict on wonder woman the vivid memory of her execution. (She got better.) This was so traumatic it left Diana in drooling catatonia. Simone got pissed and blocked my then account.
Wrong box! Wrong box! Wrong box!
Just downloaded this episode and will be back to listen to this tonight at work
Happy to see this show return.
Liked and commenting to help that algorithm.
PS Toss Green Lantern into the Wrong Box
I've missed GB&U!
More of this please!
I love how quiet and disapproving everyone got when Sins Past came up.
Green Lantern definitely belongs in the wrong box
Not only do I vote to send _Lantern_ to the Wrong Box, I also suggest the Wrong Box be decorated to look like a refrigerator to emphasize that it contains comics that are egregious
Holy moly this is the greatest day ever. I got some new comics, (including the new uncanny X-Men #1) my long awaited copy of Spider-Man 2 AND THERE’S TWO COMIC POP EPISODES IN ONE WEEK?! BEST BIRTHDAY EVER!!
@@deaconpaddock5753 "including the new Uncanny X-Men #1"
That's funny because it's written by Gail Simone, who literally was the person who came up with the "Women In Refrigerators" trope.
Shout out to Gail Simone for coming up with the term
I feel like Death of Gwen Stacy at least has the sheer amount of history backing it up (meaning she was around for a decent amount of time before dying), and how much it informs the character of Spider-Man moving forward. Like, this is the 2nd most defining moment in his career as Spider-Man, bar none. The thought of her literally haunts him.
Idk. I like the story of The Death of Gwen Stacy. It makes me sad, mad, and the weird hollow feeling of nothing being solved when Norman impales himself
Good is Gwen from Spider-Man, Bad is Karen Page cuz it's more Joe BS, Ugly is Alex because this was simply fucking gross in all aspects.
Her being made to die, her being intentionally written to be a good character solely to be more missed by readers, the very gross manner her death was handled.
Alex shouldn't have been killed period, Gwen arguably only truly became beloved after she died, and Karen was just considered a mess management didn't care about anymore.
Every time Bullseye is in a book I imagine Sal doing his Collin Farrell impression. Yes, I chuckle every time.
At 14:12 Daredevil also met with Mephisto’s son Blackheart in Daredevil #270. The Devil meets the Devil of Hell’s Kitchen.🔥🔥
I love Ron Marz's GL run... but that death was so pointless. You didn't even get to the part that pisses me off the most, because that's what follows: he moves to New York and IMMEDIATELY starts dating Donna Troy. It's very fast, and I don't like it. He never gets to grieve her. So why kill her?
I hadn't heard that Marz had created Alex to die, but that he tried her out and didn't like her. So by that story, her death was more a reset like, "Oh, decided no on Alex." But I may be wrong on that.
Exactly. No shade on the entire run, it was great! Just a weird spot on a great record.
it was that issue of Green Lantern that 1) made me stop reading GL for a LONG while and 2) give us Gail Simone, she was just a fan at the time and wrote about this comic and well the rest is history so, while GL #54 was THE WORST something good came out of, Gail Simone working in comics.
YES!!! it should be in the Wrongbox!!!
Throw it in the wrong box.
Great episode. Something I'm surprised wasn't mentioned although it would open a whole other can of worms, is that Bullseye already had practice killing a love interest of Daredevil. I can't think of many other instances in comics where a hero loses two love interests and both are killed by the same villain, plus that first instance I find interesting since the death is treated in the moment as so fleeting since it's all from Bullseye's perspective.
Love to see you guys back at it again, GBU is a Comic Pop classic in my estimation just like Back Issues.
And interesting topic to come back on, I have never much been one to agree with the whole 'Women in Refrigerators' conception but its known so I guess makes for a good video.
I would have put the Daredevil issue in the wrongbox, having editorial interfere and set a mandate to kill a long established character not just for character growth of a main character, but on purpose to make a new brand seem more mature. All of that seems way more in line with the core conception that 'women in refrigerators' is trying to hit at.
I agree with the reasons you all gave for why the death of gwen stacy doesn't really fit.
But I do think if you can look past the fact that it is where the term came from, that the Green Lantern issue is not really 'fridging', Inventing a character who is not going to be too much of one and is there to die in the origins of another character who will mostly gain the story/character growth from that moment, is something that happens to both male and female characters and is not really some kind of problematic thing.
Wrong-box the hell outta that.
I could watch GBU every week. I mean, personally I would watch it daily but definitely need more!
I was honestly one of the people who thought, for years, all the way up to this video (even tho I think I've watched y'alls episode covering it) that Kyle's gf was dismembered 😬
The part of the movie 'Logan' I truly hated was the telegraphed deaths of Eriq La Salle and family. Logan's first instinct to not endanger these people with the presence of his group was entirely correct.
Other example would be Incredible Hulk # 466. The death of Betty Ross.
it has been a long time since i read that GL book when it came out but i seem to remember that Alex had a better grasp of what a hero should be than Kyle did. Maybe Kyle should have been the one in the fridge and Alex get the ring.
That happens in Circle of Fire. An alternate universe GL turns out to be an Alex, and that universe Kyle was the one that got murdered.
@@magnumcornetto now that you mention it i remember that.
At 2:18 Ben and Tiffany’s reaction is spot on!🤣🤣🤣
Love Good Bad and The Ugly! So glad it's back!
The close-up cam is hilarious at times and a well needed addition to the show. I appreciate it.
Sal defending Kevin Smith is very relatable
I like these new episodes centered around a trope or a topic
I have 4 defrosting right now! What a coincidence
Mr.Freeze would like Nora back by dinner.
I know that it's a lot of work for guests to prepare for these episodes, but I really enjoy them
They're what first led me down into the seemingly endless chasm that is comicpop content
“and then not” was so funny
I personally think Green Lantern isn’t Wrong Box worthy simply because I compare it to Rob Leifeld Captain America and Medieval Spawn and think, “It’s not as bad as those two.”
I think years later someone made Kyle believe that someone shoved his mother into an oven lol
Ben and Tiffany’s faces had me laughing so hard when Sal mentioned Sins Past, LMFAO😂 If you haven’t seen it I highly recommend anyone to watch the back issues episode on Sins Past, one of their best and funniest shows.
My problem with Karen dying is Elektra did it better. No thoughts on Gwen as it happened way before my time but I wish they just left the character alone after that. The Kyle GL death doesn't really bother me either. Its maybe a bad story but way worse has happened in comics than a dead woman in a fridge. I think the whole "Fridged" trope is overblown tbh
I remember when I first read that issue of green lantern and was so sad when. Alex died, Kyle was and still is my favorite lantern. Also, I always liked how they always brought Alex up whenever Kyle got into a relationship, it showed that he did not forget her and that he was always worried it would happen again but that's me
I'm so happy this is back!
I would say Gwen got bridged
At 2:18 Ben and Tiffany’s reaction is spot on after hearing about Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn🤣🤣🤣 #ISayNoToo
"I guess bullseye killed him because he had a bunch of forks in him."
" No that just means he's done."
Oh Ben, never change!
Woooo! Happy to see a new gbu!
Oh shit GBU let's fucking go 🤘🏽
Wooo we’re back babyy
Great vid y’all!
I think green lantern is def wrong box material.
Speaking of women in fridges; I hope you get Gail Simone on the show for an interview someday.
Yes! With all the interviews we get here, I'd love to see one with Gail.
We tried.
so glad to see more of these types of videos
Honestly I got to give it to the green lantern book. it originated the term. It gave the character little agency and its not like they have reconned her to have more agency like gwen, they invented the character to get fridged too which some how seems worse then the other two cause at least the other two were established characters there for actual real reasons and not just made to die. It made her fight in her underwear to which some how seems worse cause at least the other two died fully dressed with their boots on and like you said about the implications about the bad guy undeessing her and dressing her in something else. Just all of it feels icky.
Green Lantern 54 was the first Green Lantern comic I ever read, just randomly picked up at a comic shop as a pre-teen because I liked the cover, had no clue what it was about. I didn't realize Alex and Kyle were new characters, and thought they just killed off a major character who'd been around for 54 issues
I really like this direction of the show. You can highlight multiple issues, and hearing Sal talk about a specific trope and history of comic books is what draws me in the most. And it feels different enough from ComicTropes to me, where I can still enjoy both
Super fun deccusion!!!
What’s your thoughts on how much individual comic tie ins should be in one event?
How should a reading order be in a comic series?
Like the X-Men Krakoa Era
Send it to the Wrong Box.
Hell yeah GBU is back!!
I really liked how they "adapted" this Daredevil comic in Season 3 of the Netflix show, in the episode where Bulseye and Daredevil fight in the church. Even if you are not a comic fan, you know something is up when most of the episode is a flashback sequence to Karen's life, clearly setting up her death. And what makes it better is when SPOILERS
she doesn't actually die. I think it was a subversion of expectations done really well.
Fridging is a literary trope in which a character exists for the sole purpose of being killed, assaulted, or otherwise harmed in order to serve as an inciting incident that motivates another character's journey. Fridging is most common with female characters, but male characters can be “fridged” too. So Uncle Ben was fridged. Johnny Blaze's step father was fridged. In Buffy Willows girlfriend Tara is fridged. Han Solo was fridged TWICE once frozen and once stabbed. In Harley Quinn 31 her boyfriend Mason is kidnapped, tortured and then killed because she went up against a very bad person ...IE he was fridged. Sometimes large groups of characters will be fridged like Morlocks. Or in movie Scanners they introduce a group of Scanners who's only purpose was to reveal friendly like minded individuals who are then all fridged. A character that existed well before thoughts of fridging them can still be fridged like Gambit was killed so Rogue can have a whole character arc in Xmen 97 .Generally fridging happens to elevate a villain (like Joker for Jason or Bane for Alfred ). A lot of times that characters matter to the main character in a visceral way. So yes it might be a wife/child/girlfriend because that is who matters to main character. With Gwen Stacy, before her fridging, Capt Stacy was fridged. Side note: I also consider destroying a character's character just to make it a plot for the main character a "fridging". So if a character does something so completely out of character that it destroys that character for future use...just to help story for main character...that to me is a fridging too. So Hal Jordan was Fridged when he killed off GL Corps. Or if they spend time making a character likeable just to reveal they are a bad person. But that is my own opinion. The having a characters purpose to be killed, hurt or tortured in some way for the purpose of character or story motivation has long been a successful trope. And it's male or female. dog or child or robot or horse etc.
I didn't read all of this but I'm pretty sure we agree. Having characters die for motivation for the main character. It's a pretty old standard. Thing in writing.I don't understand why this is one of those weird gender issue things
@@itsnotme987 you don't have to read my essay. I just gave a whole lot of examples of non female characters "fridged" and characters that were "fridged" to help story of a female character. (The groom and the wedding party for the Bride in Kill Bill).
@@itsnotme987Because at the time Gail Simone coined the term, she was highlighting a problematic pattern in superhero comics as a whole, where "character killed/maimed to advance the main character's story rather than their own" was common and disproportionately affected female characters. Any single example might be a great story on its own; the problem was the repeated pattern and the inequality in the ways female characters were treated.
@alexandredesbiens-brassard9109 my point still stands
@@itsnotme987 I don't get that answer. What point? You said you didn't understand why it was a "one of those weird gender issue thing", I gave you an explanation.
I read that GL story within a tpb that collected from his first issue to THAT issue. I was 13 , I honestly had a bit of a crush on Alex just by reading those issues, I was never a fan of Hal Jordan but the concept of Green Lantern was always cool to me. So you could say was the ideal reader for the book. Holy f@&# sh** It shocked me so much that I went really to full denial at first, I really thought she fainted and didn't understand what even happenned in the fridge on my first reading. It was super disturbing and it brought me back to that pstd-inducing comic "death in the family" that I read being like 9 years old... And I really thought she was all broken to getting stuffed in the damned frigde. I think it's not only the fact that she was horribly murdered but also that the jarring shift in tones through out this one comic, because it goes from lovey-dovey couples stuff, wacky scifi shenanigans, and then something out a grindhouse movie. It's just too much
Excalibur has the most soulcrushing fridging in comics. In issues 4 & 5.
To further sponser GBU with weird themes! 😂
To me Gwen Stacy's death has had a more tangible and interesting effect on the character and while certain stories have messed with it and diluted for a while it turned Gwen into a strong symbol that extended her legacy far more than being put on a shelf or broken up with would have and it led to great character development for Mary Jane. Plus the full story had two deaths effect Peter in her and Norman plus Harry's struggles it wasn't just Gwen dies to make Peter sad unlike the Green Lantern stuff.
Definitely wrongbox material
That outro music was definitely a choice for the fridge episode 😂
Fun fact; spider man had a cold during that fight, he was fighting in canada in the issue before and got soaked, no one ever brings that up.
Worst day ever, after the uncle ben thing. But before Aunt May gets fucking sniped. lmao.
Tom Taylors nightwing #90 has Barbara Gordon address the trope in a funny scene with a refrigerated truck involved. After killing joke she's justifiably annoyed its still a thing.
I hope that one of the next episodes you guys do is on Marvel UK. I would LOVE to see a Death’s Head head-off.
I’ve skimmed a bit and I know there’s events like Battle Tide and Death 3 (Death cubed.)
Would also be funny to see you guys talk about the Sleeze Brothers.
We have them picked and everything!
They see her with Kyle, they just assume she's sleeping around
On Spider-Man, I will note that MJ had been around almost as long as Gwen (ASM 42 vs 31). The bigger thing was that Stan preferred Gwen, and just wanted MJ as a background character, "the other woman" so to speak. However, most fans at the time, including Conway who was only nineteen (!!) when he took over the book, loved MJ and found Gwen boring. So Conway killed her. Then of course, because fans are fickle and not a monolith, everyone freaked out, so Stan deflected all blame onto Conway (it's most likely that Stan approved the issue even though he claims he did not). Stan then ordered Conway to bring Gwen back... so Conway did, but as a clone. By this time, enough sentiment had swung into Conway's favor that the death stuck.
I love a new GBU. It's always a happy suprise. It's Basically just like a Back Issues Graybles episode.
She's funny, bright and pretty.🎉
I think that because Tiffany seems legitimately upset and disturbed by the GL issue, it should go in the wrong box. Yes, obviously the death is supposed to be disturbing but it's disturbing in a bad way, where it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth and is more disrespectful than sad. Plus like Sal said, this one issue started a whole discussion on the treatment of women in comics to this day. So I vote wrong box.
@@kevinmarques7716 I'm fine with the disrespecting of fictional characters. Largely, because they are... Fictional characters.
Opening the episode with the phrase "Women in refrigerators" oh yeahhh this is gonna be a good one 😎
It wasn’t even 8 issues in that Alex was killed. Kyle only became GL at the end of GL #50. In less than 4-5 issues, Alex was introduced and promptly killed off. Kyle is my favorite hero but his introduction wasn’t the best.
We need an episode of Sal showing off all his best original comics he owns!!!
I have thoughts:
FIRST ….the first to be fridged were Steve Trevor and Larry Lance. Slightly before or right around the time of Gwen
Second….I was FURIOUS…that Deadpool 2 was spoiled just with no thought. A huge plot point and people were just spoiling away.
The Killing Joke falls into this category, but Barbara isn’t killed, just sexually assaulted and crippled
Joker did it just to make batman and gorden want to kill joker. So he was on purpose doing the thing
7:33 I’m in TEARS
More comic pop hell yeah
Ohhh yea comic book discussions !!!
When I saw the word FRIDGED I knew instantly. 🥶🥶🥶
Did y'all overlook that the GL issue was titled, "FORCED ENTRY?" - obviously a play on Major Force, but man ... of all the puns one could've made with his name...
Jesus Christ
GBU is back ❤