What I like about your videos is the nuts and bolts analysis of the accidents, no ego saving commentary or fluff to confuse watchers. Keep up the great work.
Thanks! The approach into Aspen is no joke if you've never been there before...especially when you have limited experience in the aircraft you are flying. I hope other pilots watch this video before they fly there the first time!
im currently a student pilot, and i have to say, watching your videos has really opened my eyes to how critical it is to exercise caution and procedures that are put in place to keep pilots and passengers safe. my dad being a commercial pilot, has always told me about being safe and following checklists and procedures, but this gives a deeper insight and more perspective. some of these newer instructors and pilots fail to realize how important it is to DO WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO, like pre-flight checklists, briefing, always have multiple backup plans, and NOT skip corners! thank you for sharing these videos, because i guarantee that they are saving lives daily by making others more aware of how important these seemingly “small” errors can be.
We used to operate into Aspen, Eagle, and Hayden. Company SOP required all pilots to conduct special operations training into those airports on an annual basis during recurrent training. Aspen and Eagle also had very conservative weather minimum well above charted minimums. Thank you for your continued dedication to aviation safety.
I am just a casual viewer with no relation to aviation, but I feel like a lot of these videos involve flying in Colorado. I had no idea it was such a dangerous place for aircraft.
@@petemiller2598 Mountain flying can be very challenging. The higher elevations affect aircraft performance, winds are a big factor, as well as turbulence. You need to mitigate the hazards with specific training for the airport and raising the weather minimums based on your individual experience. That is the reason our company standards required the pilots to conduct the specialized training in the simulators at these specific airports. Attempting to fly into Aspen with minimal experience with the airport and aircraft type facing the gusty winds and probable turbulence presented the crew with an extremely difficult situation.
It's a great place to build time, just depends on the aircraft. It is a very dangerous airport, for high speed jets, but for prop planes, it's really not that big of a deal. Even the most high speed of single engine prop planes, the experience will be that of a long runway, and fairly easy approach angles, with easy descent rates, and a large enough valley to maneuver in. I landed a j3cub, t34, t6 and spitfire there before I was old enough to drink. In fact, my very first landing for each of those aircraft were all done at ASE. For this jet though, yes it's a much scarier airport. There are dangers, but for a competent GA pilot in a single engine prop plane, in decent weather, it is nothing to be scared of and the nearly infamous reputation it has is not at all accurate, applying only to larger planes.
Dude you the full weight of the US government training you or you had rich parents either way stop it with the humble bragging you're not fooling anyone by acting it's all pedestrian 🙄@@davidgreenwood6029
Username checks out. Don't listen to fear though. it tells the truth, but it also always lies. I landed an 1800hp single engine plane here at this airport when I was 14.
I remember this accident. I was flying in and out of Aspen quite often at the time. It's not a forgiving airport, and flying the approach with a departure's landing light shining at you will always be weird. Nearby EGE is a bit less challenging, but still requires diligent planning and briefing. Great work as always, Hoover.
@@ryanlewis5845 driving independence pass is almost as scary. Dad was a pitkin county sheriff deputy...he said they always opened the pass a month too early and closed it a month too late.unlesd parties were thrown from the vehicle,there was little chance of survival. In winter,all car traffic had to make the long drive through grand junction
Hoover. I Really appreciate your work. You do a great job breaking down accidents and showing each of the individual links contributing to the breaking of the accident chain while also being respectful and professional to the pilots and the families and all involved. As a career Jet and Helicopter pilot I appreciate these reports as they help us all learn from others mistakes to hopefully avoid them ourselves. Well done.
My mother was a private pilot in the 1940's. She told me the only mountain airfield that scared her was Aspen. Straight down in, and climb over trees back out. I never flew with her, but I wish I could have. Aspen gets some damned big planes now. I always find your videos interesting.
I just tried this approach on the simulator with the same weather conditions and it was VERY challenging with the low cloud and heavy winds (granted that im certain that the simulator makes it 100 times easier). I didn't end up going around but I had the FMS properly programmed for the approach before decending as well as a "go around" procedure prepared and that probably helped a lot. Trying this in an unfamiliar aircraft and an improperly set up FMS and with low hours in the aircraft would make this approach near impossible. I can't imagine the stress and commotion that these guys felt on the approach.
I remember this day very well. I was scheduled to do a trip into KEGE from Kentucky. We were delayed by 3 hours but finally released. The cctv footage of this accident along with the case study was used in recurrent several times. Very tragic accident with many lessons to be learned. Great job on the analysis.
Thanks Hoover !Even as an airline pilot , this remind me that as human we are vulnerable and therefore we have to remain humble. I figure out that in each accident there is almost always a part of ego involved…
Whilst on the sub-ject of Airline Pilots []▶ Jury hears grisly details about missing campers’ fate ▶ Jury hears grisly details about missing campers’ fate from forensics expert ua-cam.com/video/VbPZ6l8PC1w/v-deo.html May 23, 2024 01:58 ----------------------------- CHANNEL: 7NEWS Australia » www.youtube.com/@7news ; A jury has been shown photographs of accused killer Greg Lynn - ; driving in Victoria’s High Country the day after two campers vanished. ; The court also heard grisly details about the couple's fate from the ; forensics expert who found their remains.
Flying is an unforgiving pursuit that is not tolerant of careless mistakes. Remember the Top Gun pilot not too long ago who was killed after forgetting to remove the gust locks on his plane because he was in a hurry.
Dale Snodgrass. He was known for taking his time on preflights, yet that time…the preflight includes multiple spots what should have caught the lock. Because of his crash, I’m extra careful to take my time there.
The fact that modern aviation in general is actually as forgiving as it is, is why there are not more accidents. Staying within the margins, usually comfortably wide, keeps us safe. Exceptional airports like Aspen have narrower margins, which require acute awareness and planning, tighter personal and professional margins.
I stumbled upon this channel about 6 months ago, purely accidental.. (algorithms) but know zero about flying & have only flown on plane 4 times in my 57 years. And aside from watching racing for wrecks & plane videos for the same macabre interests, but now I have such an interest in this channel due to Hoover.. I have gleaned that he is a fountain of knowledge on something I would not guess I'd even care about.. this is entirely to long of yammering on about nothing, but wanted to give Hoover mad props (or 'Flowers' as my kids say) about his attention to detail.. Love this channel & always am excited for his new uploads... Thanks Hoover! :)
Good for you. Aviation is awesome. 99.9 % of people just buy a ticket, get on a plane and have no idea what it took to get them to their destination. When you get to the details and nuts and bolts of flying, it's just incredible.
I’ve been watching this channel for a while now and what I’m thinking is this. If I was ever going to go for a private pilot’s license I would pay big money to have Hoover as my instructor. This dude is the real deal!
Excess confidence kills. I come from offshore sailing and what I learned is that prepare for the worst is always the best approach. Once sailing St. Martin coast during Christmas we where planning to spend Christmas eve in St. Barth which is a quick sailing and the weather was nice but the wind was picking up so I decided to tell everybody we would not sail there. Extremelly unpopular decision but everybody returned to their home alive...
@@jameshuggins7320 It is relevant because the captain of the sailboat, despite the plan to sail to St. Barth, paid attention to weather conditions and what would be required to reach safe harbor, exercised his judgment to divert to a safer destination. In contrast, the pilots in this accident, despite their plan to land at the Aspen airport, failed to pay attention to difficult conditions in landing at this airport and did not exercise their judgment to divert to a safer destination only 15 minutes away.
Former Rocky Mountain Airways DhC7 captain flying almost exclusively into ASE. Back in the day, we required 1 year in the right seat before upgrading plus extensive training, including simulated engine failure on the tricky missed approach (2 NDBs after hard right turn back up the valley towards Carbondale). Pilots must thoroughly know procedures before flying into ASE, particularly at night or in weather.
I don't know of any Air Carrier that flies into ASE after sunset. I haven't worked for one, anyway. On a sidenote, my first PIC turbojet type training involved a scripted ASE approach, miss with master warning, fly to the hold and complete the checklist. On the TOGA power for the miss the instructor gave me a T/R deploy. It sucked and I hope I never have to do that for real at a mountainous airport.
@@747heavyboeing3i did not know that. Thank you for sharing. Does that mean that pilots without a college degree lack basic skills like mathematics or meteorology?
@@747heavyboeing3 Not true. It was difficult, but guys without majors who had other skill sets/experience got in. I got hired in 1999 and retired off the B777 at Brand X. There were others like me. I somehow managed to accumulate 9 type ratings along the way, even w/o a degree. Imagine that.
Awesome vids. Hoover does such a great job of being objective and informative. I've seen a tear in his eye before, so it's not like these videos don't spring from the heart and his sympathy for the loved ones that have been lost. I am sure these videos have saved lives. Fantastic stuff.
Literally flew in 2 planes behind this plane for some skiing. We ended up diverting to Eagle/Vail. I never fly without another pilot into Aspen or Telluride. It’s a beautiful and busy approach, but this is what happens when you’re not comfortable with the specified runway. Sad stuff.
Great presentation Hoover. Excellent job breaking down the entire accident! I've been flying in and out of Aspen since 2002. Aspen is one of the most challenging places to fly. My personal minimums are (5 and 5). Five miles visibility and 5000 feet of ceiling and zero winds landing on runway 15. Otherwise we are going to our alternate (Rife or Eagle). Hear what you need to know about landing in Aspen. If you don't have 5 miles visibility and 5000 feet of ceiling don't initiate the approach. Condition yourself and advance you are not going to fly below these minimums. Brief your passenger and dispatin that you might have to divert if conditions are not favorable. I can not stress the danger of landing with any tailwind on runway 15. Next you need to be fully stabilized, configured gear down full flaps by the Red-Table VOR, otherwise you are going to be behind the curve. If it was up to me, I would restrict the airport to any jet traffic. Except to those with special training and certification from CAE and or Flight Safety International. I was in recurrent training shortly after the accident. My sim partner knew the brothers and had flown with both of them at the airline. He spoke highly of them and said they were like individuals. RIP
I always have a copilot in my 182. My wife of 42 years. If she is uncomfortable, I go around or divert. I am thinking of coming up with a program to imitate my wife so everyone can have this benefit. I will call it WOGAD (Wife ordered go around or divert). He needed a wife, not Miguel. So sad and such poor decision making. Needless loss of life and destruction of an airplane.
All women have “women’s intuition “. It’s a built in maternal mechanism to keep their children and themselves out of harms way. Unfortunately, a lot of women choose to ignore it out of convenience. Good to hear your wife’s instinct is intact.
I'm no pilot, but I feel like a good saying in the aviation field would be "if you're in doubt, divert, don't die." I appreciate your analysis on these videos. You make it clear to see what went wrong, and how.
One important component in this one is knowing when to quit. We unfortunately have become inundated with toxic positivity via statements like "Never give up", "Never quit" and "just keep going", which are all good in various situations but we also have to know when to do the opposite. Making a decision to scrap a bad idea for a safer one is not "giving up", or even admitting you chose wrong in the first place. None of that matters as long as the right correction to whatever it is results in positive outcomes. That's real positivity, not just some wishful thinking to lead to one.
@@Redridge07this is definitely an experience issue. Most of their hours are airline hours. Those type of hours are not the same as the hours of a corporate pilot. We employ a lot of retired airline guys and a lot of them, we have to let go, they simply have the wrong experience. Think about a long haul truck driver for 20 years with 95% of his driving on highways and now give him a delivery truck that only operates in New York or London.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 Ok, but you are not correct. These guys just wanted to get there. This happens a lot in aviation. If these guys would have had 25,000 hours in this type they would have made the same decision. If fact, the combination of "got to get there syndrome" and highly experienced pilots is often when mistakes/shortcuts/incidents happen. This channel has review many incident flights that were a result of the pilots just wanting to get there.
I'm veteran aircraft mechanic and obviously very interested in pilots operation. So damn, the approach as I've seen in so many videos, is the most delicate in the flight leg. It's like playing Golf in the green, to fast you overshoot, to slow the ball doesn't hole. So Aspen is one of the most dangerous airports in the US? Oh man, this rich people are thrill seekers in all aspects. Cheers Hoover, thanks for the video.
Generally, the elevation of the airport correlates directly with the danger. The higher elevation airport, the more dangerous, and the danger of high elevation airports is compounded by the fact that you have high density altitude(which means worse climb performance) coupled with mountainous terrain that you can smack your face into if you can't climb high enough fast enough to clear the terrain. If a pilot isn't careful, they can descend into a mountain valley that they do not have the climb performance to get out of. On top of that, mountain weather can change very rapidly, and there are all kinds of hazardous weather associated with mountains(such as high, turbulent winds, mountains hiding behind clouds or fog, snow, ice, etc). Aspen is the second highest elevation airport in the US, located in a mountain valley in Colorado, behind only Telluride(the highest), also in Colorado
Doesn't really apply here but what gives when the truly stupid and/or people with money think something makes them indestructible. Athletes & fast cars, BASE jumpers who are only after views and my favorite, the airbag will save me. This isn't new, think back to Thurman Munson.
@@danijuggernaut Another idiot has a "sub" he thinks will visit the Titanic. It has what looks like a 40 inch wide view-port (Home Depot plexiglass?) like something a tourist would ride in at a family resort in the Bahamas. Maybe good for 15 or 20 feet down. He says that "when certified blah blah". ALVIN had a six inch thick cone shaped piece of polished quartz for a view-port that was replaced often. People just don't get it even after they sign the death waiver.
I enjoy all of your videos. I don’t know the first thing about flying a plane, but your explanations of these mishaps are clear and concise and easy to understand even for an ignorant guy like me! Keep up the good work!
Your videos are excellent and respectful of pilots and lost pax. Thorough explanations of a/c systems, enroute, apt ops, and emphasis on checklists. I memorize them but never go by memory for reasons you’ve discussed, ATC call interrupts and lose place. I won’t taxi from ramp to ramp without checklist. Look no further than attempted takeoffs with flight control gust lock still in place, pitot tube covers w/ long streamers- REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT, static ports covered for washing and not removing. There’s hundreds of ways to end up in a smoking crater without causing it yourself so it’s every pilot’s responsibility to be certain they’ve done everything in their power to ensure the safe outcome of every flight. Thanks, Hoover, for always instilling must do habits, mitigating risk, pointing out pilot mistakes w/out judgement, and making safer pilots who, if executing all your suggestions, should never have an accident. Tailwinds!
I am not a pilot. I did, however, live in Leadville, CO for several years which is just over the mountain from Aspen. My number one question is why with only 14 hours on that aircraft, would they willingly choose such a difficult airport to fly to? If they wanted to fly into the heart of the Rocky Mountains, there are plenty of other airports (DEN comes to mind).
KDEN isn't in the middle of the Rockies though. It's way out away from the mountains. It's an easy airport which would have been better for them. If they wanted a LITTLE more challenge but far less than Aspen, they should have gone to Grand Junction or Hayden. Even Eagle, but Eagle still has some sketchy terrain for their experience, but it would have at least been reasonable.
@@jonesjones7057 I understand what you are saying. My kids live in Denver. I fly in and out of there (as a passenger) several times a year. I am well aware of where it is. The downside is that it does have a lot of commercial air traffic. But it does give an easy approach, unlike the old Stapleton airport. They could have tried for Leadville, but that airplane would not have made it at 9,500 feet.
Why would they do that? As my wife would say, because that's what men do. Anyone familiar with AIA Flight 808 into Guantánamo Bay and the CVR knows what I mean. It's not chivalry, it's plain old stupidity.
6 degree descent - isn’t that like London City? I don’t like to fly and just watching that takeoff and climb out makes my hands sweat. I can’t even imagine! Thanks for covering this tragedy.
Try landing in San Diego. The approach goes over some tall buildings you can almost reach out and touch. I mean they are right there. Pucker factor for sure.
@@passwordbosco407hey, Bosco, what are your thoughts on Albuquerque? Not a pilot, here just a civilian passenger who used to fly in and out of there a lot in the mid '70s. I'm very comfortable flying, but always had white knuckles on takeoffs out of Albuquerque at high altitude on a hot summer day with a full plane of passengers and baggage. It seemed we used every inch of the runway before getting lift. And then there was flying over the Sandia mountains after take off, oy! Any experience with Albuquerque?
@@passwordbosco407 Landing in San Diego at night, especially at Christmas time, with the downtown buildings lit up, is also one of the most scenic, IMO.
Aspen is a wild airport. I lived in the valley for a while (down valley trash, with the normal folk), and incidents seemed to happen regularly. I can't imagine that approach for a pilot.
Don't sell yourself short. Those high dollar resorts and their wealthy clients would grind to a stop if it were not for the hard working folks you refer to.
Another ego crash... These brothers probably didn't want to look like amateurs in front of the 3rd pilot sitting in the jumpseat.. they probably saw the idea of diverting to another airport as humiliating - especially given all of their flight hours. Makes you wonder if they would have done something different if the 3rd pilot wasn't there.
I want to add that also having planes land before them certainly increased their If they can do it I can do it attitude. Who wants to feel humiliated? No one does. This was a huge factor in their decision-making, and their machismo wouldn't let them admit defeat and head to a safer airport.
There are a few things you could say about this crash, from the obvious- Aspen is a difficult airport, to the less obvious- the Challenger 600 series is difficult to land and stalls easily. The bright red line that was crossed however was the tailwind, which was in excess of the limitation for the aircraft. The pilot flying made the decision to continue when the aircraft was outside of its certified operating limitations. This was not a mistake, or a "bad" decision in terms of evaluating information poorly, it was a reckless and deliberate decision to do something illegal and unsafe.
thank you for your channel. I would like to get my pilot's license someday and I have learned SOOOOO MUCH listening to these debriefs. So much so that I can watch the beginning of the video and guess the problems the pilot likely had, which will keep me from making the same ones.
Hoover. Your channel is absolutely S tier! Thank you for the content! You're making the skys safe in a respectful and professional way, and you're educating the public on air safety. Your videos have saved lives, and informed people to empower themselves and otheres to ensure the skies are safer! Thank you :)
Your channel needs to be required viewing for new pilots especially. Your channel demonstrates the real difficulty of piloting and that you always need to be on your game….Great job once again.
I work for a fractional that goes into ASE on a regular basis. The winds are nearly always an issue but the tower is of no help. In fact, they have made up winds that will allow for landings or departures. The airlines go in and out all the time with winds out of limits. The place sucks.
Well done Hoover, thank you. Im a non pilot yet Im finding your synopsis crosses over to many parts of everyday life. I can get a little over focussed and this is a reminder to stop and look at the big picture. Wind gusts of 12, I can understand the go around, wind gusts of 30 is what were you thinking??
Hoover, We always appreciate your meticulous analysis of the factors contributing to any tragedy like this. Thank you for sharing your expertise to educate us.
Pardon my ignorance but how does a pilot accumulate over 17K total time and have less than 500 hrs PIC time? Is that typical? I’m guessing that means he’s been an FO his whole career.
Yes, that's what that means. Of course, he might have been more junior than FO - he could have started his career as a Second Officer and/or Flight Engineer. It isn't particularly unusual to have a long career as a FO. If only half of pilots are captains, on average pilots must spend only half their careers as captains - that means if pilots are flying for forty years, there must be a lot of pilots spending at least twenty years as first officers.
That's unfortunate... But not as unfortunate as the subject of the video. Fortunately by subscribing here, you can avoid being a subject of a future video and having Hoover describe your fate in the category of unfortunately.
I’ve flown into Aspen some 20X’s in Learjets & Hawker jets. There was only one time when I was cleared for the same approach & I had to do something different; since the tailwind also exceeded our 10 knot limit…….. I circled to the east and made right traffic runway 33 and landed to the north .
One look at that approach plate and any experienced pilot’s brain would scream out SIMULATOR FIRST and VFR SECOND! There’s a lot going on with that approach and one had better be on their “A” game! The fact they couldn’t even program the FMS is a huge red flag! No briefing, no PIC, no experience with that approach and no reason to land there. Lots of Swiss cheese holes!
I agree but as always looks can be deceiving. Think back to Dale Earnhardt's crash. The report states 5 point harnesses were worn but gives no cause of death. There was a fire but from the single photo I can't tell how far and how fast it progressed. I can accept life can be short but this was just a stupid way to go with the alternate 15 minutes away.
@GamingWithMaddog Sorry, not trying to be a smart-ass. I know what Earnhardt's COD was, what about the flight crew? No pilot will ever wear a HANS device and why would they. I gave up dirt bike racing after cracking 3 helmets. In return I took up competitive sports and now at age 67 my many concussions and brain bleeds have caught up to me. You mentioned a crash video. Twice I've had my comments with links deleted here. I'm just assuming it's something Hoover doesn't like but it's his channel. In the end it doesn't matter, people died and whatever the cause that's always bad news.
Another excellent video, Hoover! Yet another perfect example of just how quickly and certainly the holes in the swiss cheese model will line up and the pilots will find themselves in extremis. Almost hard to believe it too with all those hours and experience, that's the hardest thing to imagine. Another case of "get there-itis"?
“Experienced pilots” is a relative term. They had a lot of hours flying for an airline. Airline pilots mostly fly to airports they have been to before and are given a packet when they arrive at the aircraft with the flight plan, weather, weight and balance, etc. II it had been a commercial flight, dispatch may not have released the flight with those weather conditions. Corporate pilots have to flight plan and make many more calculations and decisions. The pilots “experience” blinded them as to how inexperienced they truly were.
Hoover, I have been watching your outstanding Pilot Debrief videos since you started your channel. I appreciate you taking time from your busy schedule to educate pilots and pilots in training on aviation safety. I bet if you published a book someday with your 100 best Pilot Debriefs, it would be a best seller!
A variant scenario of 'get-home-itis' where the desire to get to your 'safe' destination clouds your judgment. I cannot remember the number of times I diverted or stopped short and waited it out before I 'got home.' You do a great job of analysis reportage.
In-flight decisions by committee are a recipe for disaster. There is a reason the term is "Pilot in Command". Of course, accept input from other professionals but always remember who is in command.
Thank you for the video, Hoover. Your personality and demeanor are spot on. I get tired of the in your face cocky fighter pilot BS from other channels. Well done.
Another great video, Hoover. Loved it. However, I think there should be a discussion about their flight times. The PF had 500 hrs as PIC of his 17000 hrs and the brother had 2000 hrs PIC out of 20000. These guys were held back in their careers and there is probably a good reason for that. I’ve flown into Aspen about 50 times in Gulfstreams. It’s definitely challenging. Two pilots with 14 hours each should never fly into such an airport. Heck, they shouldn’t even fly together anywhere.
@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 as some one who wants to fly gulf streams, can you give me any tips oh how to build up to it after the basic ratings needed? Also, (if you still don't mind) what's the work schedule look like for corporate jet pilot? I'm 32 and getting my ppl for now. This would be career 2.0 [kind of] for me. I'd like to fly king airs or Gulfstreams over going to airlines. I guess we'll see.
@@ChanceandChoice ok. I had not forgotten about you. Just that life happens sometimes. I’m going to do it in a few posts, since sometimes a post gets deleted. So here is the thing, get your licenses and build time doing some crappy flying jobs. Can you relocate? Or are you stuck to a certain area. The reason is that you are not going to build time fast flying Gulfstreams. I’d say, flying “corporate” is usually around 250 hours a year. So in 10 years time, that’s 2500 hours. We are fine hiring you with 1000 hours, but our insurance requires captains to have 3000 hrs. So we wouldn’t be able to upgrade you for nearly 10 years. And trust me, you would be ready for that in less than 2 years. So first is, find a job where you can fly 800 to 1000 hrs a year and get to 2500 hours or 3000 hours.
True tragedy....The whole family must have been devastated about the loss of the surviving brother....They must have been fixated on the landing....Roger....Pembrokeshire UK
As a seasoned Aspen pilot, I can offer this. If the weather is conducive, you can do the approach to 15, then circle for runway 33. Its a right hand circle and have done this a couple of times in a Challenger. In order to do this, you will need to accept the approach clearance for 15, THEN when visual ask the control tower for a circling maneuver for 33. However, be ready to execute a missed approach for runway 15.
I live in the Aspen area and remember this crash all too well. Was driving past the airport shortly thereafter and saw the plane upside down with the scorch marks. Tragic mistakes.
As Always, your reviews of these types of accidents prove worthy and in the sense of Positive to take note of the errors and corrections that could have made a difference. Keep up the great work..
Hoover, I've been watching your debriefs for a while now and I have concluded that almost all of these fatal accidents were caused by lack of common since, ego and complacency. I'm not a pilot, but like another commentor said, I like the nuts and bolts of your debriefs. Keep the shiny side up and the rubber side down!
I got to fly a P-3C Orion from NAS Brunswick to go snowboarding. We also took a P-3C from NAS Brunswick to Hill AFB in Utah to go snowboarding. Our Air Force brethren let us use one of their vans for two days so we could stay at the Marriott in Ogden & then drive to Snowbird. This was April in the early 90's and was the best spring riding I've ever had.
No sugar coating this! It’s amazing how many shitty, stupid pilots manage to get certified when they are poor in class and sims. How these guys stayed alive that long is a miracle and they were just an accident waiting to happen and then it did. Sure glad there were no unsuspecting paying customers onboard.
Have you done a story on the Fred Teutenberg plane crash that killed a family of 7? Him, his wife, and 5 of their 6 children went down in 2011. They're from my hometown, and it was awful!
On the Challenger series (601 through 604 etc.) when PIO occurs deploy the spoilers a tad, it will stabilize the aircraft. The Challenger is a beautiful aircraft to fly and maintain. I worked on them for 12 years. Sorry for their loss.
I assume they had spoilers out for the steep approach angles...? I wonder what automation systems (auto throttle, automatic instrument approach) are there on this type and how good are the ergonomics of the cockpit avionics...?
@@electricaviationchannelvid7863most airplanes you can’t use spoilers with gear down and full flaps. Especially with engines mounted on the rear fuselage.
@@electricaviationchannelvid7863 I bet they didnt. When the spoilers are deployed the Challenger is very stable. My belief is the pilot got sensory overloaded and just lost control. I flew numerous test flights with the Challenger in my career with Bombardier. Pre-flight planning and sticking with the plan is and should be mandatory. Not to Monday morning quarterback this crew, however they should have diverted as soon as they realized the FMS approach was missing. Go back to a secondary airport with good minimums/VFR and reset.
Really enjoy your videos hoover...Ive wanted to get my license for several years now and im soaking up all the info possible off your channel....keep em coming bud.
Just flew for the first time yesterday. 182 with retractable gear. Hitting turbulence in that thing was fun and not fun at the same time! All the debriefs raced through my mind..
I'm a 68 year old Comm pilot, former CFI, and have 660 hours flying. I won't fly again as PIC because I know I've slipped in my brain thinking ability and memory. There are so many things when flying, that will kill you if you forget. And although as a senior citizen I still want to live. It's better to realize you could have flown and drove than to realize you should have drove than fly.
@@ZabDevin I feel that Zab. This is a really delicate situation with the whole world imperilled by another Trump dictatorship. Meaning there will never be another American election. Joe's ideas about the SCOTUS and a new amendment are excellent and past due but it's likely far to late to start that now. But since Joe has the same immunity he could refuse to leave office or even cancel the election (he won't but he now has that power). I'm with Keith Olberman on this one.
I remember this accident. We live near Rifle Colorado, the alternate for Aspen. When Aspen is closed, Rifle gets very busy. The limousine services then shuttle people over an hour up to Aspen. Going into Covid, I hauled jet fuel to Aspen & Eagle. Hated Aspen. Took forever to get unloaded.
Wow - that is a truly challenging approach at the best of times. When that kind of wind/shear is combined with low pilot experience on type... a good day to stay away. sad. Thanks for posting.
A Professional, Straight Forward, No Nonsense Debrief. That's Why I Subscribe. 14 Hours, Really!?! Time In Type MATTERS! At Least They Weren't Carrying Passengers! Thank You.
Despite the bad news presented I appreciate your videos and hope that the information provided will help educate new pilots for similar potential circumstances.
Thousands of hours ATP didn`t give these guys any common sense at all. 30 kt tailwind with 10kt max for the airplane. That`s criminal incompetance. Besides it`s Aspen! ATC should have banned them from the airport.
Perfect example why experience is never telling the whole story. Many people, regardless of years on the job, just remain incompetent or unable to make a decision
That is the one thing I don't get. These are clearly unfamiliar pilots, ATC knows the type and 30 kt is literally a pain in the butt, so why didn't ATC just call it off? They can do that.
Thanks Hoover for another great breakdown. Anyone that flies into Aspen Airport needs to be a highly experienced aviator. It is certainly not an airport to use for practice to build up low hours. I was the third seat flying into ASE with two friends / commercial pilots on a beautiful clear fall day. We had just left KTEX (Telluride) and opted for a touch and go at Sardy Field on our way to GWS (Glenwood Springs) down valley. Even though I was with 2 conservative and confident pilots with over 50 cumulative years of commercial experience, knowing the complexities of Sardy Field, I was still the white-knuckled, clenched teeth passenger searching for my lucky rabbit’s foot.
This says an awful lot. Getting a commercial airline command shows the ability to make safe and logical decisions under pressure and the agility to change plans as the scenario changes, many fail because they are quite able to fly the aircraft, but lack the management skills to be able to run the show.
You get hired at the wrong end of a wave, at or near the bottom and then the growth stops. This used to be common in the airline world. I know old guys who sat sideways on the 727 for a decade, then another in the right seat. They got to upgrade in their late 50s and had to retire at 60. Poof. Career over with low PIC time.
Hoover, being from St.louis I love the 15 and 18 models in the background. I know you flew both of them. But, they need the older brother with them. The Rino, F-4 (St.louis slugger) .
Check out this other video about a pilot that jokes about crashing the plane right before he crashes: ua-cam.com/video/yFbC5mY7VKI/v-deo.html
I went to your store and the US Store won’t load right it keeps blinking on my screen can you fix this ?
I’m not sure because it’s working fine on my end. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Hey buddy, I was just wondering how and why you got Hoover as a call sign?
Unfortunate...
😢
What I like about your videos is the nuts and bolts analysis of the accidents, no ego saving commentary or fluff to confuse watchers. Keep up the great work.
Thanks! The approach into Aspen is no joke if you've never been there before...especially when you have limited experience in the aircraft you are flying. I hope other pilots watch this video before they fly there the first time!
You can say mentour again, oops, sorry,you can say that again❤@ groomgirl. 😂
I hate when I'm watching a video and I realize that I'm confused by ego saving commentary and fluff.
@@meepk633 I guess a sectional chart drives you crazy and a Jeppsen approach plate just drives you into a stroke.
Agree 100%. Hoover’s stuff is always top shelf.
As a student pilot these videos help me stay focused before, during and after each lesson. Great (effective/meaningful) videos and commentary.
im currently a student pilot, and i have to say, watching your videos has really opened my eyes to how critical it is to exercise caution and procedures that are put in place to keep pilots and passengers safe. my dad being a commercial pilot, has always told me about being safe and following checklists and procedures, but this gives a deeper insight and more perspective. some of these newer instructors and pilots fail to realize how important it is to DO WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO, like pre-flight checklists, briefing, always have multiple backup plans, and NOT skip corners! thank you for sharing these videos, because i guarantee that they are saving lives daily by making others more aware of how important these seemingly “small” errors can be.
We used to operate into Aspen, Eagle, and Hayden. Company SOP required all pilots to conduct special operations training into those airports on an annual basis during recurrent training. Aspen and Eagle also had very conservative weather minimum well above charted minimums. Thank you for your continued dedication to aviation safety.
I am just a casual viewer with no relation to aviation, but I feel like a lot of these videos involve flying in Colorado. I had no idea it was such a dangerous place for aircraft.
@@petemiller2598 Mountain flying can be very challenging. The higher elevations affect aircraft performance, winds are a big factor, as well as turbulence. You need to mitigate the hazards with specific training for the airport and raising the weather minimums based on your individual experience. That is the reason our company standards required the pilots to conduct the specialized training in the simulators at these specific airports. Attempting to fly into Aspen with minimal experience with the airport and aircraft type facing the gusty winds and probable turbulence presented the crew with an extremely difficult situation.
The first error of judgement in this case was picking Aspen as a place to build time on an unfamiliar machine.
"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger", only works in favor, so many percentage points of attempts. Fact
It's a great place to build time, just depends on the aircraft. It is a very dangerous airport, for high speed jets, but for prop planes, it's really not that big of a deal. Even the most high speed of single engine prop planes, the experience will be that of a long runway, and fairly easy approach angles, with easy descent rates, and a large enough valley to maneuver in. I landed a j3cub, t34, t6 and spitfire there before I was old enough to drink. In fact, my very first landing for each of those aircraft were all done at ASE. For this jet though, yes it's a much scarier airport. There are dangers, but for a competent GA pilot in a single engine prop plane, in decent weather, it is nothing to be scared of and the nearly infamous reputation it has is not at all accurate, applying only to larger planes.
Dude you the full weight of the US government training you or you had rich parents either way stop it with the humble bragging you're not fooling anyone by acting it's all pedestrian 🙄@@davidgreenwood6029
As much as I think I would like to be a pilot, these videos give me a reality check
Username checks out. Don't listen to fear though. it tells the truth, but it also always lies. I landed an 1800hp single engine plane here at this airport when I was 14.
Yep.
This should alarm you more as a passenger
@@Sparroh Indeed. Before following Pilot Debrief, I was never keen on small aircraft. PD has reinforced my views enormously.
If it's not for you, you will know.
I remember this accident. I was flying in and out of Aspen quite often at the time. It's not a forgiving airport, and flying the approach with a departure's landing light shining at you will always be weird. Nearby EGE is a bit less challenging, but still requires diligent planning and briefing. Great work as always, Hoover.
I've been to Aspen a few times. I much prefer flying into Denver and taking a nice drive.
In the 70s when sardi got closed down that was one of two options the other was fly into grand junction and drive in also
Most people fly into Rifle (my hometown) now and take a car service to Aspen.
I always get altitude sickness flying into Aspen as well. The drive makes that better and not losing a day being sick as a dog.
@@ryanlewis5845 driving independence pass is almost as scary. Dad was a pitkin county sheriff deputy...he said they always opened the pass a month too early and closed it a month too late.unlesd parties were thrown from the vehicle,there was little chance of survival. In winter,all car traffic had to make the long drive through grand junction
Hmm, California! Beautiful!
Hoover. I Really appreciate your work. You do a great job breaking down accidents and showing each of the individual links contributing to the breaking of the accident chain while also being respectful and professional to the pilots and the families and all involved. As a career Jet and Helicopter pilot I appreciate these reports as they help us all learn from others mistakes to hopefully avoid them ourselves. Well done.
I’m not a pilot, but I find your videos interesting. You’re a phenomenal communicator!
My mother was a private pilot in the 1940's. She told me the only mountain airfield that scared her was Aspen. Straight down in, and climb over trees back out.
I never flew with her, but I wish I could have.
Aspen gets some damned big planes now.
I always find your videos interesting.
I just tried this approach on the simulator with the same weather conditions and it was VERY challenging with the low cloud and heavy winds (granted that im certain that the simulator makes it 100 times easier). I didn't end up going around but I had the FMS properly programmed for the approach before decending as well as a "go around" procedure prepared and that probably helped a lot. Trying this in an unfamiliar aircraft and an improperly set up FMS and with low hours in the aircraft would make this approach near impossible. I can't imagine the stress and commotion that these guys felt on the approach.
You continue to win my respect with your objective analysis and unwillingness to trash talk pilots who made terrible mistakes. KUTGW
I remember this day very well. I was scheduled to do a trip into KEGE from Kentucky. We were delayed by 3 hours but finally released. The cctv footage of this accident along with the case study was used in recurrent several times. Very tragic accident with many lessons to be learned. Great job on the analysis.
Thanks Hoover !Even as an airline pilot , this remind me that as human we are vulnerable and therefore we have to remain humble. I figure out that in each accident there is almost always a part of ego involved…
Whilst on the sub-ject of Airline Pilots
[]▶ Jury hears grisly details about missing campers’ fate
▶ Jury hears grisly details about missing campers’ fate from forensics expert
ua-cam.com/video/VbPZ6l8PC1w/v-deo.html
May 23, 2024 01:58 -----------------------------
CHANNEL: 7NEWS Australia
» www.youtube.com/@7news
; A jury has been shown photographs of accused killer Greg Lynn -
; driving in Victoria’s High Country the day after two campers vanished.
; The court also heard grisly details about the couple's fate from the
; forensics expert who found their remains.
Indeed. Humble is the key word!
Thanks for posting that!
I’m working hard to get to the flight deck.
Flying is an unforgiving pursuit that is not tolerant of careless mistakes. Remember the Top Gun pilot not too long ago who was killed after forgetting to remove the gust locks on his plane because he was in a hurry.
Dale Snodgrass. He was known for taking his time on preflights, yet that time…the preflight includes multiple spots what should have caught the lock. Because of his crash, I’m extra careful to take my time there.
The fact that modern aviation in general is actually as forgiving as it is, is why there are not more accidents. Staying within the margins, usually comfortably wide, keeps us safe. Exceptional airports like Aspen have narrower margins, which require acute awareness and planning, tighter personal and professional margins.
You'd think that aircraft these days would sound an alarm if the gust locks were still on.
@@DeanCully you should try Courchevel in France if you like mountain airports. 😏👌
@@kittytrail I will if there's ever an opportunity and with an appropriate airplane.
I stumbled upon this channel about 6 months ago, purely accidental.. (algorithms) but know zero about flying & have only flown on plane 4 times in my 57 years. And aside from watching racing for wrecks & plane videos for the same macabre interests, but now I have such an interest in this channel due to Hoover.. I have gleaned that he is a fountain of knowledge on something I would not guess I'd even care about.. this is entirely to long of yammering on about nothing, but wanted to give Hoover mad props (or 'Flowers' as my kids say) about his attention to detail.. Love this channel & always am excited for his new uploads... Thanks Hoover!
:)
Like you, I know zero about flying but you can get lessons from what he talks about that can apply to your life.
Hoover! Excellent breakdown. Thank you.
Good for you.
Aviation is awesome.
99.9 % of people just buy a ticket, get on a plane and have no idea what it took to get them to their destination.
When you get to the details and nuts and bolts of flying, it's just incredible.
I’ve been watching this channel for a while now and what I’m thinking is this. If I was ever going to go for a private pilot’s license I would pay big money to have Hoover as my instructor. This dude is the real deal!
Stumbled onto your videos month ago now I'm addicted to the darn things! Really l like how you present these accidents. Very well done.
Man, Hoover, your analysis and explanations are excellent for us who are non-aviators but have a keen interest in air safety. Thank you.
I am very sure your content has encouraged numerous pilots to save their own lives. Even when finished serving your country, you continue to serve.
Excess confidence kills.
I come from offshore sailing and what I learned is that prepare for the worst is always the best approach.
Once sailing St. Martin coast during Christmas we where planning to spend Christmas eve in St. Barth which is a quick sailing and the weather was nice but the wind was picking up so I decided to tell everybody we would not sail there.
Extremelly unpopular decision but everybody returned to their home alive...
What? Not at all relevant
@@jameshuggins7320 It is relevant because the captain of the sailboat, despite the plan to sail to St. Barth, paid attention to weather conditions and what would be required to reach safe harbor, exercised his judgment to divert to a safer destination. In contrast, the pilots in this accident, despite their plan to land at the Aspen airport, failed to pay attention to difficult conditions in landing at this airport and did not exercise their judgment to divert to a safer destination only 15 minutes away.
@@jameshuggins7320 risk management and not biting off more than you can chew all the same
Yes relevant because comparable !!!
@@jameshuggins7320what are you talking about?? Of course it's relevant. Destination set. Risk assesed, plans changed to avoid death. Perfect example
Former Rocky Mountain Airways DhC7 captain flying almost exclusively into ASE. Back in the day, we required 1 year in the right seat before upgrading plus extensive training, including simulated engine failure on the tricky missed approach (2 NDBs after hard right turn back up the valley towards Carbondale). Pilots must thoroughly know procedures before flying into ASE, particularly at night or in weather.
Back in the day a four year college degree was required to get hired by a major airline. No domestic major requires it. Some even accept no college.
I don't know of any Air Carrier that flies into ASE after sunset. I haven't worked for one, anyway. On a sidenote, my first PIC turbojet type training involved a scripted ASE approach, miss with master warning, fly to the hold and complete the checklist. On the TOGA power for the miss the instructor gave me a T/R deploy. It sucked and I hope I never have to do that for real at a mountainous airport.
@@747heavyboeing3i did not know that. Thank you for sharing. Does that mean that pilots without a college degree lack basic skills like mathematics or meteorology?
@@747heavyboeing3 Not true. It was difficult, but guys without majors who had other skill sets/experience got in. I got hired in 1999 and retired off the B777 at Brand X. There were others like me. I somehow managed to accumulate 9 type ratings along the way, even w/o a degree. Imagine that.
I remember you guys and Aspen Airways in the Smurf Jet.... never operated into ASE but did fly into TEX numerous times.
569K subscribers, congrats you deserve it. And as usual, a really excellent breakdown of this unfortunate event. Well done Hoover.
Awesome vids. Hoover does such a great job of being objective and informative. I've seen a tear in his eye before, so it's not like these videos don't spring from the heart and his sympathy for the loved ones that have been lost. I am sure these videos have saved lives. Fantastic stuff.
Above all, and providing these inciteful videos. You are the real deal. A military pilot. A big thank you for your service.
Literally flew in 2 planes behind this plane for some skiing. We ended up diverting to Eagle/Vail. I never fly without another pilot into Aspen or Telluride. It’s a beautiful and busy approach, but this is what happens when you’re not comfortable with the specified runway. Sad stuff.
Great presentation Hoover. Excellent job breaking down the entire accident!
I've been flying in and out of Aspen since 2002. Aspen is one of the most challenging places to fly. My personal minimums are (5 and 5). Five miles visibility and 5000 feet of ceiling and zero winds landing on runway 15. Otherwise we are going to our alternate (Rife or Eagle). Hear what you need to know about landing in Aspen. If you don't have 5 miles visibility and 5000 feet of ceiling don't initiate the approach. Condition yourself and advance you are not going to fly below these minimums. Brief your passenger and dispatin that you might have to divert if conditions are not favorable. I can not stress the danger of landing with any tailwind on runway 15. Next you need to be fully stabilized, configured gear down full flaps by the Red-Table VOR, otherwise you are going to be behind the curve. If it was up to me, I would restrict the airport to any jet traffic. Except to those with special training and certification from CAE and or Flight Safety International.
I was in recurrent training shortly after the accident. My sim partner knew the brothers and had flown with both of them at the airline. He spoke highly of them and said they were like individuals. RIP
I always have a copilot in my 182. My wife of 42 years. If she is uncomfortable, I go around or divert. I am thinking of coming up with a program to imitate my wife so everyone can have this benefit. I will call it WOGAD (Wife ordered go around or divert). He needed a wife, not Miguel. So sad and such poor decision making. Needless loss of life and destruction of an airplane.
Flying a plane = easy. Finding a wife, for some = impossible.
Always trust women’s intuition
All women have “women’s intuition “. It’s a built in maternal mechanism to keep their children and themselves out of harms way. Unfortunately, a lot of women choose to ignore it out of convenience. Good to hear your wife’s instinct is intact.
@@KeepingOnTheWatch 🤣
@@Wargasm54 She said I could reply positively to this.😂
On Sunday mornings, I always look forward to getting my cup of coffee and watching a new video... keep em coming!
I'm no pilot, but I feel like a good saying in the aviation field would be "if you're in doubt, divert, don't die."
I appreciate your analysis on these videos. You make it clear to see what went wrong, and how.
One important component in this one is knowing when to quit. We unfortunately have become inundated with toxic positivity via statements like "Never give up", "Never quit" and "just keep going", which are all good in various situations but we also have to know when to do the opposite. Making a decision to scrap a bad idea for a safer one is not "giving up", or even admitting you chose wrong in the first place. None of that matters as long as the right correction to whatever it is results in positive outcomes. That's real positivity, not just some wishful thinking to lead to one.
Those Bombardier Challengers. Too much airplane, a hairy approach and low-experience seems to sum up the whole thing. Good work, Hoover.
not too much airplane, these guys at 17,000 hrs. This was not an experience issue, this was pilot "got to get there syndrome"
A challenge to fly these?
@@Redridge07this is definitely an experience issue. Most of their hours are airline hours. Those type of hours are not the same as the hours of a corporate pilot. We employ a lot of retired airline guys and a lot of them, we have to let go, they simply have the wrong experience.
Think about a long haul truck driver for 20 years with 95% of his driving on highways and now give him a delivery truck that only operates in New York or London.
@@Redridge07 Only 14 hrs in this model, only 498 hrs in left seat entire career.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 Ok, but you are not correct. These guys just wanted to get there. This happens a lot in aviation. If these guys would have had 25,000 hours in this type they would have made the same decision. If fact, the combination of "got to get there syndrome" and highly experienced pilots is often when mistakes/shortcuts/incidents happen.
This channel has review many incident flights that were a result of the pilots just wanting to get there.
I'm veteran aircraft mechanic and obviously very interested in pilots operation. So damn, the approach as I've seen in so many videos, is the most delicate in the flight leg. It's like playing Golf in the green, to fast you overshoot, to slow the ball doesn't hole. So Aspen is one of the most dangerous airports in the US? Oh man, this rich people are thrill seekers in all aspects. Cheers Hoover, thanks for the video.
Generally, the elevation of the airport correlates directly with the danger. The higher elevation airport, the more dangerous, and the danger of high elevation airports is compounded by the fact that you have high density altitude(which means worse climb performance) coupled with mountainous terrain that you can smack your face into if you can't climb high enough fast enough to clear the terrain. If a pilot isn't careful, they can descend into a mountain valley that they do not have the climb performance to get out of. On top of that, mountain weather can change very rapidly, and there are all kinds of hazardous weather associated with mountains(such as high, turbulent winds, mountains hiding behind clouds or fog, snow, ice, etc). Aspen is the second highest elevation airport in the US, located in a mountain valley in Colorado, behind only Telluride(the highest), also in Colorado
Doesn't really apply here but what gives when the truly stupid and/or people with money think something makes them indestructible. Athletes & fast cars, BASE jumpers who are only after views and my favorite, the airbag will save me. This isn't new, think back to Thurman Munson.
@@Civ33 Yeah, i know. I raised up in Switzerland and Samedan is the highest airport in Europe.
@@dicksonfranssen Yes, dive 3800 metres deep in a plastic submarine or fly to space in a rocket with tons of liquid oxygen under the ass, brilliant,
@@danijuggernaut Another idiot has a "sub" he thinks will visit the Titanic. It has what looks like a 40 inch wide view-port (Home Depot plexiglass?) like something a tourist would ride in at a family resort in the Bahamas. Maybe good for 15 or 20 feet down. He says that "when certified blah blah". ALVIN had a six inch thick cone shaped piece of polished quartz for a view-port that was replaced often. People just don't get it even after they sign the death waiver.
I enjoy all of your videos. I don’t know the first thing about flying a plane, but your explanations of these mishaps are clear and concise and easy to understand even for an ignorant guy like me! Keep up the good work!
Wow, just noticed you're now over 500k subscribers Hoover! Congratulations on this and your amazing content. I look forward to it each week ☺️
Thanks so much!
Your videos are excellent and respectful of pilots and lost pax. Thorough explanations of a/c systems, enroute, apt ops, and emphasis on checklists. I memorize them but never go by memory for reasons you’ve discussed, ATC call interrupts and lose place. I won’t taxi from ramp to ramp without checklist. Look no further than attempted takeoffs with flight control gust lock still in place, pitot tube covers w/ long streamers- REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT, static ports covered for washing and not removing. There’s hundreds of ways to end up in a smoking crater without causing it yourself so it’s every pilot’s responsibility to be certain they’ve done everything in their power to ensure the safe outcome of every flight. Thanks, Hoover, for always instilling must do habits, mitigating risk, pointing out pilot mistakes w/out judgement, and making safer pilots who, if executing all your suggestions, should never have an accident. Tailwinds!
Love this! Great advice!
I am not a pilot. I did, however, live in Leadville, CO for several years which is just over the mountain from Aspen. My number one question is why with only 14 hours on that aircraft, would they willingly choose such a difficult airport to fly to? If they wanted to fly into the heart of the Rocky Mountains, there are plenty of other airports (DEN comes to mind).
@jamiesuejeffery The14hrs did not kill them, they fell victim to pilot "got to get there syndrome"
KDEN isn't in the middle of the Rockies though. It's way out away from the mountains. It's an easy airport which would have been better for them. If they wanted a LITTLE more challenge but far less than Aspen, they should have gone to Grand Junction or Hayden. Even Eagle, but Eagle still has some sketchy terrain for their experience, but it would have at least been reasonable.
@@jonesjones7057 I understand what you are saying. My kids live in Denver. I fly in and out of there (as a passenger) several times a year. I am well aware of where it is. The downside is that it does have a lot of commercial air traffic. But it does give an easy approach, unlike the old Stapleton airport. They could have tried for Leadville, but that airplane would not have made it at 9,500 feet.
Why would they do that? As my wife would say, because that's what men do. Anyone familiar with AIA Flight 808 into Guantánamo Bay and the CVR knows what I mean. It's not chivalry, it's plain old stupidity.
RIL or EGE would've been far, far better.
6 degree descent - isn’t that like London City? I don’t like to fly and just watching that takeoff and climb out makes my hands sweat. I can’t even imagine! Thanks for covering this tragedy.
Try landing in San Diego. The approach goes over some tall buildings you can almost reach out and touch. I mean they are right there. Pucker factor for sure.
Did someone say my name?
@@passwordbosco407hey, Bosco, what are your thoughts on Albuquerque? Not a pilot, here just a civilian passenger who used to fly in and out of there a lot in the mid '70s. I'm very comfortable flying, but always had white knuckles on takeoffs out of Albuquerque at high altitude on a hot summer day with a full plane of passengers and baggage. It seemed we used every inch of the runway before getting lift. And then there was flying over the Sandia mountains after take off, oy! Any experience with Albuquerque?
Imagine landing the space shuttle or the shuttle approach and landing trainer (a modified gulfstream) - 22 degrees 😮
@@passwordbosco407 Landing in San Diego at night, especially at Christmas time, with the downtown buildings lit up, is also one of the most scenic, IMO.
Besides the big Gulfstream models, the Challenger series are the best looking private jets out there. Absolutely beautiful airplanes.
Aspen is a wild airport. I lived in the valley for a while (down valley trash, with the normal folk), and incidents seemed to happen regularly. I can't imagine that approach for a pilot.
Don't sell yourself short. Those high dollar resorts and their wealthy clients would grind to a stop if it were not for the hard working folks you refer to.
Yep, Bonedale gutter rat here!
@@Cmoredebris Nah...Down Valley Trash is a term of endearment. DVT proud. 😂
Another ego crash... These brothers probably didn't want to look like amateurs in front of the 3rd pilot sitting in the jumpseat.. they probably saw the idea of diverting to another airport as humiliating - especially given all of their flight hours. Makes you wonder if they would have done something different if the 3rd pilot wasn't there.
I want to add that also having planes land before them certainly increased their If they can do it I can do it attitude. Who wants to feel humiliated? No one does. This was a huge factor in their decision-making, and their machismo wouldn't let them admit defeat and head to a safer airport.
There are a few things you could say about this crash, from the obvious- Aspen is a difficult airport, to the less obvious- the Challenger 600 series is difficult to land and stalls easily. The bright red line that was crossed however was the tailwind, which was in excess of the limitation for the aircraft. The pilot flying made the decision to continue when the aircraft was outside of its certified operating limitations. This was not a mistake, or a "bad" decision in terms of evaluating information poorly, it was a reckless and deliberate decision to do something illegal and unsafe.
Typical of third world carelessness and idoitic macho bs
thank you for your channel. I would like to get my pilot's license someday and I have learned SOOOOO MUCH listening to these debriefs. So much so that I can watch the beginning of the video and guess the problems the pilot likely had, which will keep me from making the same ones.
Hoover. Your channel is absolutely S tier! Thank you for the content! You're making the skys safe in a respectful and professional way, and you're educating the public on air safety.
Your videos have saved lives, and informed people to empower themselves and otheres to ensure the skies are safer!
Thank you :)
Hoover is a righteous gem.
Your channel needs to be required viewing for new pilots especially. Your channel demonstrates the real difficulty of piloting and that you always need to be on your game….Great job once again.
I work for a fractional that goes into ASE on a regular basis. The winds are nearly always an issue but the tower is of no help. In fact, they have made up winds that will allow for landings or departures. The airlines go in and out all the time with winds out of limits. The place sucks.
wow that isnt good
I can believe that. You can tell in the audio in this video IMO:
Nice Job. As a Challenger 601 pilot, I will not attempt an approach into KASE with > 10 kts tailwind.
Well done Hoover, thank you. Im a non pilot yet Im finding your synopsis crosses over to many parts of everyday life. I can get a little over focussed and this is a reminder to stop and look at the big picture. Wind gusts of 12, I can understand the go around, wind gusts of 30 is what were you thinking??
Hoover,
We always appreciate your meticulous analysis of the factors contributing to any tragedy like this.
Thank you for sharing your expertise to educate us.
Pardon my ignorance but how does a pilot accumulate over 17K total time and have less than 500 hrs PIC time? Is that typical? I’m guessing that means he’s been an FO his whole career.
I thought that same exact thing
Yes, that's what that means. Of course, he might have been more junior than FO - he could have started his career as a Second Officer and/or Flight Engineer. It isn't particularly unusual to have a long career as a FO. If only half of pilots are captains, on average pilots must spend only half their careers as captains - that means if pilots are flying for forty years, there must be a lot of pilots spending at least twenty years as first officers.
union hire time
3 words.. What a mess
Unfortunately, I can't stop saying Unfortunately 50 times a day after subscribing here.
That's unfortunate... But not as unfortunate as the subject of the video. Fortunately by subscribing here, you can avoid being a subject of a future video and having Hoover describe your fate in the category of unfortunately.
There must be...50 ways to use 'unfortunately'.
😭
lol‼️
Hoover should change the name of the channel to “ The unfortunate pilot debrief “
I’ve flown into Aspen some 20X’s in Learjets & Hawker jets. There was only one time when I was cleared for the same approach & I had to do something different; since the tailwind also exceeded our 10 knot limit……..
I circled to the east and made right traffic runway 33 and landed to the north .
One look at that approach plate and any experienced pilot’s brain would scream out SIMULATOR FIRST and VFR SECOND! There’s a lot going on with that approach and one had better be on their “A” game! The fact they couldn’t even program the FMS is a huge red flag! No briefing, no PIC, no experience with that approach and no reason to land there. Lots of Swiss cheese holes!
I've never seen an accident plane stay so intact
Those Challengers are built like a brick shat houses.
@@pilotrtlol
I agree but as always looks can be deceiving. Think back to Dale Earnhardt's crash. The report states 5 point harnesses were worn but gives no cause of death. There was a fire but from the single photo I can't tell how far and how fast it progressed. I can accept life can be short but this was just a stupid way to go with the alternate 15 minutes away.
@@pilotrt Same with Embraer. Anyone else see Boeing's moon shot fail again yesterday? Structure and safety first, looks come second.
@GamingWithMaddog Sorry, not trying to be a smart-ass. I know what Earnhardt's COD was, what about the flight crew? No pilot will ever wear a HANS device and why would they. I gave up dirt bike racing after cracking 3 helmets. In return I took up competitive sports and now at age 67 my many concussions and brain bleeds have caught up to me. You mentioned a crash video. Twice I've had my comments with links deleted here. I'm just assuming it's something Hoover doesn't like but it's his channel. In the end it doesn't matter, people died and whatever the cause that's always bad news.
Another excellent video, Hoover! Yet another perfect example of just how quickly and certainly the holes in the swiss cheese model will line up and the pilots will find themselves in extremis. Almost hard to believe it too with all those hours and experience, that's the hardest thing to imagine. Another case of "get there-itis"?
Love your videos Hoover
Damn it Hoover! I am sooo addidcted to your channel .... keep up the excellent work!
Meat glazer.
Unbelievable that 2 experienced pilots made mistakes like that.
“Experienced pilots” is a relative term. They had a lot of hours flying for an airline. Airline pilots mostly fly to airports they have been to before and are given a packet when they arrive at the aircraft with the flight plan, weather, weight and balance, etc. II it had been a commercial flight, dispatch may not have released the flight with those weather conditions. Corporate pilots have to flight plan and make many more calculations and decisions. The pilots “experience” blinded them as to how inexperienced they truly were.
I doubt they were aspen experienced
Hoover, I have been watching your outstanding Pilot Debrief videos since you started your channel. I appreciate you taking time from your busy schedule to educate pilots and pilots in training on aviation safety. I bet if you published a book someday with your 100 best Pilot Debriefs, it would be a best seller!
A variant scenario of 'get-home-itis' where the desire to get to your 'safe' destination clouds your judgment. I cannot remember the number of times I diverted or stopped short and waited it out before I 'got home.' You do a great job of analysis reportage.
In-flight decisions by committee are a recipe for disaster. There is a reason the term is "Pilot in Command". Of course, accept input from other professionals but always remember who is in command.
Thank you for the video, Hoover. Your personality and demeanor are spot on. I get tired of the in your face cocky fighter pilot BS from other channels. Well done.
I appreciate that!
Another great video, Hoover. Loved it. However, I think there should be a discussion about their flight times. The PF had 500 hrs as PIC of his 17000 hrs and the brother had 2000 hrs PIC out of 20000. These guys were held back in their careers and there is probably a good reason for that.
I’ve flown into Aspen about 50 times in Gulfstreams. It’s definitely challenging. Two pilots with 14 hours each should never fly into such an airport. Heck, they shouldn’t even fly together anywhere.
Good point!
@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 as some one who wants to fly gulf streams, can you give me any tips oh how to build up to it after the basic ratings needed? Also, (if you still don't mind) what's the work schedule look like for corporate jet pilot?
I'm 32 and getting my ppl for now. This would be career 2.0 [kind of] for me. I'd like to fly king airs or Gulfstreams over going to airlines. I guess we'll see.
@@ChanceandChoice let me explain it when I have some more time. I’ll write up a bit later today.
@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 take your time no rush. Ppl isn't coming any faster anyway haha, and thanks for acknowledging the comment.
@@ChanceandChoice ok. I had not forgotten about you. Just that life happens sometimes. I’m going to do it in a few posts, since sometimes a post gets deleted.
So here is the thing, get your licenses and build time doing some crappy flying jobs. Can you relocate? Or are you stuck to a certain area.
The reason is that you are not going to build time fast flying Gulfstreams. I’d say, flying “corporate” is usually around 250 hours a year. So in 10 years time, that’s 2500 hours. We are fine hiring you with 1000 hours, but our insurance requires captains to have 3000 hrs. So we wouldn’t be able to upgrade you for nearly 10 years. And trust me, you would be ready for that in less than 2 years.
So first is, find a job where you can fly 800 to 1000 hrs a year and get to 2500 hours or 3000 hours.
I’m a better and safer pilot because of you. You, quite literally, are saving lives (maybe mine). Thank you.
True tragedy....The whole family must have been devastated about the loss of the surviving brother....They must have been fixated on the landing....Roger....Pembrokeshire UK
denial is a powerful thing
As a seasoned Aspen pilot, I can offer this. If the weather is conducive, you can do the approach to 15, then circle for runway 33. Its a right hand circle and have done this a couple of times in a Challenger. In order to do this, you will need to accept the approach clearance for 15, THEN when visual ask the control tower for a circling maneuver for 33. However, be ready to execute a missed approach for runway 15.
-- *_Thank you, Hoover, Pilot Brief!_*
I live in the Aspen area and remember this crash all too well. Was driving past the airport shortly thereafter and saw the plane upside down with the scorch marks. Tragic mistakes.
As Always, your reviews of these types of accidents prove worthy and in the sense of Positive to take note of the errors and corrections that could have made a difference. Keep up the great work..
Hoover, I've been watching your debriefs for a while now and I have concluded that almost all of these fatal accidents were caused by lack of common since, ego and complacency. I'm not a pilot, but like another commentor said, I like the nuts and bolts of your debriefs. Keep the shiny side up and the rubber side down!
I'm a pilot and I've concluded that almost all of these fatal accidents were caused by lack of common sense, ego and complacency.
God bless you, Hoover. Thank you so much for your debrief, always appreciate your conciseness and overall heart lead videos. You rock. ✊❤
I got to fly a P-3C Orion from NAS Brunswick to go snowboarding. We also took a P-3C from NAS Brunswick to Hill AFB in Utah to go snowboarding. Our Air Force brethren let us use one of their vans for two days so we could stay at the Marriott in Ogden & then drive to Snowbird. This was April in the early 90's and was the best spring riding I've ever had.
No sugar coating this! It’s amazing how many shitty, stupid pilots manage to get certified when they are poor in class and sims. How these guys stayed alive that long is a miracle and they were just an accident waiting to happen and then it did. Sure glad there were no unsuspecting paying customers onboard.
You don't choose the day, the day chooses you.
Aspen is a tough airport to fly into. I flew into it twice in our company King Air
Have you done a story on the Fred Teutenberg plane crash that killed a family of 7? Him, his wife, and 5 of their 6 children went down in 2011. They're from my hometown, and it was awful!
As always Hoover.......great video. Thanks and keep em coming
On the Challenger series (601 through 604 etc.) when PIO occurs deploy the spoilers a tad, it will stabilize the aircraft. The Challenger is a beautiful aircraft to fly and maintain. I worked on them for 12 years. Sorry for their loss.
I assume they had spoilers out for the steep approach angles...? I wonder what automation systems (auto throttle, automatic instrument approach) are there on this type and how good are the ergonomics of the cockpit avionics...?
@@electricaviationchannelvid7863most airplanes you can’t use spoilers with gear down and full flaps. Especially with engines mounted on the rear fuselage.
@@electricaviationchannelvid7863 I bet they didnt. When the spoilers are deployed the Challenger is very stable. My belief is the pilot got sensory overloaded and just lost control. I flew numerous test flights with the Challenger in my career with Bombardier. Pre-flight planning and sticking with the plan is and should be mandatory. Not to Monday morning quarterback this crew, however they should have diverted as soon as they realized the FMS approach was missing. Go back to a secondary airport with good minimums/VFR and reset.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 I do not know, I do not have type rating on aircraft with "spoilers"...I flew military jets with "speed-brakes" only.
Really enjoy your videos hoover...Ive wanted to get my license for several years now and im soaking up all the info possible off your channel....keep em coming bud.
Flying in the Rockies is no joke. Heck driving in the Rockies is not joke!
Just flew for the first time yesterday. 182 with retractable gear. Hitting turbulence in that thing was fun and not fun at the same time! All the debriefs raced through my mind..
I'm a 68 year old Comm pilot, former CFI, and have 660 hours flying. I won't fly again as PIC because I know I've slipped in my brain thinking ability and memory. There are so many things when flying, that will kill you if you forget. And although as a senior citizen I still want to live. It's better to realize you could have flown and drove than to realize you should have drove than fly.
I’m right there with you at sixty seven years old. I love to fly but not if I can’t do it safely.
@@steveavant9727 I've had to stop driving a car for the self-same reasons. I still have the skills but my memory slips are unforgivable.
@@marcdraco2189Please relay this information to Joe Biden. I like him, but I think he shouldn’t run for president.
@@ZabDevin I feel that Zab. This is a really delicate situation with the whole world imperilled by another Trump dictatorship. Meaning there will never be another American election.
Joe's ideas about the SCOTUS and a new amendment are excellent and past due but it's likely far to late to start that now. But since Joe has the same immunity he could refuse to leave office or even cancel the election (he won't but he now has that power).
I'm with Keith Olberman on this one.
Same here at 57 - don't log enough hours anymore to be safe and proficient. Sold the bird for a boat
Your videos are awesome! From dhc-6 to 777 and I learned a lot watching them!
I remember this accident. We live near Rifle Colorado, the alternate for Aspen.
When Aspen is closed, Rifle gets very busy. The limousine services then shuttle people over an hour up to Aspen.
Going into Covid, I hauled jet fuel to Aspen & Eagle. Hated Aspen. Took forever to get unloaded.
@user-ym2in6so3l I didn’t. They did however, cater my nieces wedding.
Wow - that is a truly challenging approach at the best of times. When that kind of wind/shear is combined with low pilot experience on type... a good day to stay away. sad. Thanks for posting.
I’m not a pilot, yet your Channel is one of my favorites.
A Professional, Straight Forward, No Nonsense Debrief. That's Why I Subscribe. 14 Hours, Really!?! Time In Type MATTERS! At Least They Weren't Carrying Passengers! Thank You.
thank you for your excellent debriefs
another great video on how shite can go sideways if you do not do your due diligence. Thanks Sir, keep up the grind. Love the debriefs.
We just had an F-35 crash here in Albuquerque Sunport a few days ago. The pilot ejected safely. Maybe you should do a video on that.
Despite the bad news presented I appreciate your videos and hope that the information provided will help educate new pilots for similar potential circumstances.
Thousands of hours ATP didn`t give these guys any common sense at all. 30 kt tailwind with 10kt max for the airplane. That`s criminal incompetance. Besides it`s Aspen! ATC should have banned them from the airport.
Perfect example why experience is never telling the whole story. Many people, regardless of years on the job, just remain incompetent or unable to make a decision
That is the one thing I don't get. These are clearly unfamiliar pilots, ATC knows the type and 30 kt is literally a pain in the butt, so why didn't ATC just call it off? They can do that.
man that was terrible. What a burden to carry surviving and your brother not man what a tragedy
Thanks Hoover for another great breakdown. Anyone that flies into Aspen Airport needs to be a highly experienced aviator. It is certainly not an airport to use for practice to build up low hours.
I was the third seat flying into ASE with two friends / commercial pilots on a beautiful clear fall day. We had just left KTEX (Telluride) and opted for a touch and go at Sardy Field on our way to GWS (Glenwood Springs) down valley.
Even though I was with 2 conservative and confident pilots with over 50 cumulative years of commercial experience, knowing the complexities of Sardy Field, I was still the white-knuckled, clenched teeth passenger searching for my lucky rabbit’s foot.
It's amazing that the pilot with the most experience was the one saying everything is good.
01:30 - How can someone have over 17,000 flight hours total, but only 498 hours as PIC? This person flew his whole career as a copilot?
I missed that. Good question. Some people indeed can do a whole career as SIC.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183
Yes if the airline let's them remain right seat, some don't.
This says an awful lot. Getting a commercial airline command shows the ability to make safe and logical decisions under pressure and the agility to change plans as the scenario changes, many fail because they are quite able to fly the aircraft, but lack the management skills to be able to run the show.
You get hired at the wrong end of a wave, at or near the bottom and then the growth stops. This used to be common in the airline world. I know old guys who sat sideways on the 727 for a decade, then another in the right seat. They got to upgrade in their late 50s and had to retire at 60. Poof. Career over with low PIC time.
@@lbowsk but not 500 hours PIC. I mean, just your flight training gives you a few hundred PIC.
Hoover, being from St.louis I love the 15 and 18 models in the background. I know you flew both of them. But, they need the older brother with them. The Rino, F-4 (St.louis slugger) .