Hey Jamie, Things I've learned from doing my 71 RR satellite specifically to handle well and drive nicely. Bumpsteer is a massive issue on these cars, no amount of frame stiffening will fix that. I used the Qa1 bump steer tire rods as well as Chris Birdsongs balljoint drop brackets which helped the car drive better than my uncle's new Daytona lol. I went with the POL tubular upper control arms and rebuilt the stock lower control arms with the boxing plates and poly bushings. I did the kyb gas a just all the way around because I didn't have enough for the Bilsteins. I kept the original front sway bar and added a rear sway bar which helped out a lot as well. For the steering I did the inner tire rods and idler arm as well as rebuilding the stock box also to save money. While It won't be as exact as the Borgeson unit the car handles very nicely now and is definitely as good or better than a newer charger or challenger. Torsion bars are stock and leaf springs have been replaced. Still waiting for my subframe connectors to arrive.
I didn't go for max handling, but i did the moog problem solvers for caster and a Borgeson steering box. It turned my challenger into a much more predictable driver. The borgeson box is way lighter and gives more room for headers on the driver's side. Expensive, yes. Worth it, definitely
Just last week I fitted a Hotchkiss front and rear sway bar kit to my 71 440 Challenger. I had to weld brackets to my LCA's and rear chassis rails as the car didn't come with sway bars from factory. What a MASSIVE difference in the drivability and handling! Very glad I did the upgrade.
Yes! It really does wonders. The weld on tabs are an option, or there’s always the shock mounting bolt bracket - but as seen on this car, those can lead to funky end link to strut rod fitment problems.
Having troubles with my 1966 Chrysler New Yorker. Had alignment issues last year with it, wore the inside of my front tires down. Went to a local shop to find out why I have negative camber, and their answer was my wheel bearings. So they replaced the inner and outer bearings and redid my front seals and did the alignment. Cost me about $435 and here we are a year later and having the same issue as before, wearing my tires down to the wires. Now i got 2 new tires and a front suspension rebuild kit. Hopefully this video is just what I need to get everything right.
🥲 I can’t help there, but - find a mechanic or classic shop you like, and maybe point them toward my videos. I’m always available to share information.
I just did everything on the list except the new gearbox and subframe connectors over the winter on my 76 /6 Scamp, and now it drives way better than it has a right to... Pretty stoked with it at this point... I do think a new gearbox might be in the cards soon...
I'm excited ! My 67 coronet will be there soon and she needs all those front end thingies! Very informative vid thanks Jamie looking forward to seeing you all soon!
By the way, do you think a Borgeson box would fit my 66 Power Wagon? The guy I bought it from did a home job power steering conversion using a Toyota box. It's pretty sloppy but better than no power steering.
I don’t think Borgeson makes one that fits those, but I can’t say for sure. Obviously with a welder and enough ingenuity all things are possible. The steering assist ram is the only correct factory setup for the Sweptline trucks, as you may know. Our gold truck has one and it works well enough.
What I've done with a stripped chassis Mopar is take it to a frame / body shop and have the front of the front rails pulled towards the center slightly. This allows for enough toe to properly align for radial tires. This is best done with the K-frame removed.
I have questions. Pulling the rails inward at the front would tweak the upper control arm mounting slightly in the direction you wouldn’t want, taking away caster. The lower control arm and strut rod are mounted to the K frame and wouldn’t be affected. Toe is just about endlessly adjustable and wouldn’t require that. A good camber spec is easy to achieve in stock form. At the same time, you’re changing the bumper mounting positions slightly, and potentially goofing body panel mounting and alignment. This seems like a bad idea, when the changes needed for radial tire alignment can be made with bolt on parts. Unless I’m not thinking about this correctly?
@@DeadDodgeGarage I'm not an alignment guy. This was 30 years ago and I don't recall aftermarket parts for changes like that. Thinking about it, my alignment guy came up with the solution and I think it was for caster change, which might affect camber too. Anyway, it worked and he got the alignment he wanted. On circle track Mopars, he would weld an extension on one control arm, buy welding two control arm pieces together. The bumper ends could be spread back apart, after reattaching the K-frame and that doesn't even require a frame shop. Whatever way he did it, he got it work on a few of my cars. Bias ply tires were getting hard to find and there wasn't the Internet to order parts or look up mods and parts. He had the front squeezed for caster most likely. The other thing is, Mopar front end rails actually spread with time over the years, so an old car is going to have the front rail spread apart more than originally. Squeezing the front addresses age and tire type.
I’m not an expert here, but I do own the Direct Connection performance manual, which covers several types of racing and might shed some light. I’m not well versed in cop car equipment either, but I’m sure Tom is. My basic understanding is, cop cars got heavy duty components similar to what an R/T would get. Sway bar, big brakes, big torsion bars, extra coolers. I don’t think there are any cop specific components that would help us as much as the aftermarket stuff does today.
Great explanation in regular language. I need the FF box and sub frame connectors everything else I did. I was surprised by the Hotchkis torsion bars, made a big improvement over jumps.
I find the ride in my Mopars to be plenty “compliant.” Take the front shocks off of a Mopar. Then take the front shocks off of a Chevy. Let me know which suspension system you like better 🙂
Great video! It may be different in the heavy truck world but I was taught that 5 degrees of caster is about the most you want to have. Can’t recall why though
I’m sure it’s a diminishing return sort of thing, and eventually does more bad than good. More than 5 is pretty much unachievable in these cars anyway so I don’t think it necessarily needs to be said. The handling guys always just seem to say “as much as you can get.”
So funny reading the comments first sometimes ! Everybody has done or Needs Upgrades ! Great Video 👍 my a body is set up for Wanna be racing ! Factory Small torsions and No sway bars ... Old Yeller is Loose 😂
@@DeadDodgeGarage I don't , I just don't have the money or time yet to touch it ! I get in it and drive it 20 minutes and shut it down . Best car I've bought in my life yet !
Of interest again since I want my Challenger to be a great handling road car, not a straight-line racer. But long ago I was told by experts (Global West Suspension at an '80s SEMA show) to not use a very stiff (and especially not a totally rigid, like a Del-A-Lum) LCA bushing on a Mopar because there had to be at least a little lateral give to tolerate the back and forth effect of the strut rods through the LCA's travels. Do you use softer urethane LCA bushings? Got Moog Problem Solver upper bushings, a factory front sway bar (and new LCAs with the mounting tab), the LCA weld-on plates, and a copcar steering box with cooler (If it will fit). Going to box/reinforce various areas (US CarTool), frame connectors, etc too. For reasons hard to explain now my car has the 3300# SuperStock rear leaf springs. They didn't used to be desirable for handling applications but they did improve the car way back then when the factory spring had sagged. What would you use for rear springs? Thanks
Hotchkis makes rear leafs specifically for handling. The pro of the poly LCA is that it can rotate freely. It definitely won’t have much side to side give as you are describing. I haven’t heard of this causing any issues, but I could see how the arc of the strut rod’s travel could potentially strain the bushing. I wonder if those aftermarket adjustable strut rods (with heim joints) could be set up to avoid this. I’m far from an expert here. My main interest is in cars that work well on the street. I’ve never had to think about the lower bushings this hard. Haha. The modern hemi swap Challenger I’m working on currently has just about all of this same stuff done already. Braced lower arms, tubular upper, adjustable strut rods, subframe connectors, sway bars of course, and big torsion bars. I have added the inner fender and radiator support braces, and I will be adding torque boxes soon to complete the chassis stiffening package.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I did a lot of reading since earlier and there are folks who say both urethane and delrin (Bergman) LCA bushings are ok as long as you use a quality adjustable strut rod preferably with a heim joint and get it set perfectly. Apparently the effect of the different arcs of motion of the LCA and strut are minimized with the right adjustment but you may not be able to get that 'perfect' setup with stock struts. More research needed. Still seems like there has to be _some_ motion absorbed at the LCA pivot or the front strut to K-frame connection, and most of the posts seemed to lean towards the OEM type rubber bushings/isolators on the strut to do that so it didn't occur at the LCA pivot; I'm not familiar with the adjustable struts or if they use isolators. At lot fewer folks seemed to want urethane strut isolators compared to bushings on the control arms. Heim joint must be in specific orientation, but I don't see how that deals with the movement unless there's still the rubber isolators. So much to catch up on. I have the Mopar Suspension book but its packed away... wonder how vastly things have changed since then (1984, where does the time go!)
@@geebopbaluba1591 Seriously - it's nuts. The front bar alone does a lot, but once you add the rear bar too, the body roll is just gone. It's amazing how well they corner that way. Well enough to find the next weak point... the sidewall of the rear tires 😄
PS when you mentioned steering box options, there are also way to stabilize/strengthen the steering box mounting; there are videos where you can see the area flex when under load. Does your handling work extend to K-frame reinforcement, steering sector support, etc? Your thoughts on those options appreciated!
I have read about it but have never done it. I know some people go all out, backing up all of the factory’s crappy K frame welds, adding braces, etc. If you’re building a track car you should probably look into that. Personally, for what I’m doing, it sounds like overkill - but I completely believe that flexing occurs there. I haven’t seen a sector support on a classic Mopar yet. I’ve seen them on Cummins trucks though, where it’s a really good idea.
@@DeadDodgeGarage 30+ year hiatus on car work has changed the hopes and plans (read that as lower expectations due to price shock and getting older), but I am going to go over the K-frame for any cracks or failing welds; as I do that I expect I'll still do basic reinforcement, because why not? Newer larger stickier tires may require more force to turn at stop/low speed especially if fast ratio steering is still on the menu so loading on the steering box mounts/K-frame may be higher than stock. I bought one of those Firmfeel sector support kits long ago (sadly it is packed) so going to use that too. The reviews when it came out were pretty good.
I think someone over here buying one and shipping it to you would be the easiest way. I would offer to do this myself, but then I have to remember that Stacey has been waiting for me to mail him a shirt for quite a while now 😅 because all of my stuff is made to order by a third party I don’t have them in stock. I need to fix this at some point.
Where the hell to you live?🤣 I need to see you or your friends to fix my tire issues I can seem to win anything from stock parts to my custom q1 upper a arms it’s a 73 duster 225
@@trojan440 I remember what a pain the first set I did were... That was years ago. I just did the front end in a '73 Charger here and was dreading the LCAs. It...took me ten minutes or less a side. I guess I've learned a whole lot about how to do stuff in the last decade. I'm glad that's where we're at now, because both my Charger and Demon pretty obviously need them. Haha.
![[UA] Team Vitality проти NAVI | IEM Cologne 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wttO1zVRTC0/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey Jamie, Things I've learned from doing my 71 RR satellite specifically to handle well and drive nicely. Bumpsteer is a massive issue on these cars, no amount of frame stiffening will fix that. I used the Qa1 bump steer tire rods as well as Chris Birdsongs balljoint drop brackets which helped the car drive better than my uncle's new Daytona lol. I went with the POL tubular upper control arms and rebuilt the stock lower control arms with the boxing plates and poly bushings. I did the kyb gas a just all the way around because I didn't have enough for the Bilsteins. I kept the original front sway bar and added a rear sway bar which helped out a lot as well. For the steering I did the inner tire rods and idler arm as well as rebuilding the stock box also to save money. While It won't be as exact as the Borgeson unit the car handles very nicely now and is definitely as good or better than a newer charger or challenger. Torsion bars are stock and leaf springs have been replaced. Still waiting for my subframe connectors to arrive.
I didn't go for max handling, but i did the moog problem solvers for caster and a Borgeson steering box. It turned my challenger into a much more predictable driver. The borgeson box is way lighter and gives more room for headers on the driver's side. Expensive, yes. Worth it, definitely
Just last week I fitted a Hotchkiss front and rear sway bar kit to my 71 440 Challenger. I had to weld brackets to my LCA's and rear chassis rails as the car didn't come with sway bars from factory. What a MASSIVE difference in the drivability and handling! Very glad I did the upgrade.
Yes! It really does wonders. The weld on tabs are an option, or there’s always the shock mounting bolt bracket - but as seen on this car, those can lead to funky end link to strut rod fitment problems.
Hotchkiss is the way to go. I did the tvs on my cuda and it handles better than the new challenger lol.
Having troubles with my 1966 Chrysler New Yorker. Had alignment issues last year with it, wore the inside of my front tires down. Went to a local shop to find out why I have negative camber, and their answer was my wheel bearings. So they replaced the inner and outer bearings and redid my front seals and did the alignment. Cost me about $435 and here we are a year later and having the same issue as before, wearing my tires down to the wires. Now i got 2 new tires and a front suspension rebuild kit. Hopefully this video is just what I need to get everything right.
How I wish I lived less than 2994 miles away from your shop....
🥲 I can’t help there, but - find a mechanic or classic shop you like, and maybe point them toward my videos. I’m always available to share information.
Leave the shitty side of the country
Cool 😎 i went to the "get fancy" list without realizing 😅 ...only my adjustments are all screwed up
Very informative vid. I second the frame connectors part.
I just did everything on the list except the new gearbox and subframe connectors over the winter on my 76 /6 Scamp, and now it drives way better than it has a right to... Pretty stoked with it at this point... I do think a new gearbox might be in the cards soon...
I'm excited ! My 67 coronet will be there soon and she needs all those front end thingies! Very informative vid thanks Jamie looking forward to seeing you all soon!
By the way, do you think a Borgeson box would fit my 66 Power Wagon? The guy I bought it from did a home job power steering conversion using a Toyota box. It's pretty sloppy but better than no power steering.
I don’t think Borgeson makes one that fits those, but I can’t say for sure. Obviously with a welder and enough ingenuity all things are possible. The steering assist ram is the only correct factory setup for the Sweptline trucks, as you may know. Our gold truck has one and it works well enough.
Dang, that is a sweet car !
What I've done with a stripped chassis Mopar is take it to a frame / body shop and have the front of the front rails pulled towards the center slightly. This allows for enough toe to properly align for radial tires. This is best done with the K-frame removed.
I have questions. Pulling the rails inward at the front would tweak the upper control arm mounting slightly in the direction you wouldn’t want, taking away caster. The lower control arm and strut rod are mounted to the K frame and wouldn’t be affected. Toe is just about endlessly adjustable and wouldn’t require that. A good camber spec is easy to achieve in stock form. At the same time, you’re changing the bumper mounting positions slightly, and potentially goofing body panel mounting and alignment. This seems like a bad idea, when the changes needed for radial tire alignment can be made with bolt on parts. Unless I’m not thinking about this correctly?
@@DeadDodgeGarage I'm not an alignment guy. This was 30 years ago and I don't recall aftermarket parts for changes like that. Thinking about it, my alignment guy came up with the solution and I think it was for caster change, which might affect camber too. Anyway, it worked and he got the alignment he wanted. On circle track Mopars, he would weld an extension on one control arm, buy welding two control arm pieces together. The bumper ends could be spread back apart, after reattaching the K-frame and that doesn't even require a frame shop. Whatever way he did it, he got it work on a few of my cars. Bias ply tires were getting hard to find and there wasn't the Internet to order parts or look up mods and parts. He had the front squeezed for caster most likely. The other thing is, Mopar front end rails actually spread with time over the years, so an old car is going to have the front rail spread apart more than originally. Squeezing the front addresses age and tire type.
Truth Teller 👍🏻🇦🇺💯⛽️
Had dug around and found some of the specs for Kit Car's and Police Cars- worked nicely.
Somehow this makes me wonder how the NASCAR and TransAm guys set these up in the 60's.
And what about Police car steering components.
I’m not an expert here, but I do own the Direct Connection performance manual, which covers several types of racing and might shed some light. I’m not well versed in cop car equipment either, but I’m sure Tom is. My basic understanding is, cop cars got heavy duty components similar to what an R/T would get. Sway bar, big brakes, big torsion bars, extra coolers. I don’t think there are any cop specific components that would help us as much as the aftermarket stuff does today.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I think Police spec steering boxes had a quicker ratio.
10,000 subs right around the corner. Onward and upward DDG !
Oh hell yeah! It’s all happening. Thank you!
Great explanation in regular language. I need the FF box and sub frame connectors everything else I did. I was surprised by the Hotchkis torsion bars, made a big improvement over jumps.
I’d definitely bump the sub frame connectors up on the need list for doing jumps. Haha.
Mopar: we have torsion bars.
Everyone else: we use coils for a more compliant ride.
I find the ride in my Mopars to be plenty “compliant.”
Take the front shocks off of a Mopar. Then take the front shocks off of a Chevy. Let me know which suspension system you like better 🙂
Good content and thanks 🔧🔧🐐👍
Great video! It may be different in the heavy truck world but I was taught that 5 degrees of caster is about the most you want to have. Can’t recall why though
I’m sure it’s a diminishing return sort of thing, and eventually does more bad than good. More than 5 is pretty much unachievable in these cars anyway so I don’t think it necessarily needs to be said. The handling guys always just seem to say “as much as you can get.”
Nice ride 😃
So funny reading the comments first sometimes ! Everybody has done or Needs Upgrades ! Great Video 👍 my a body is set up for Wanna be racing ! Factory Small torsions and No sway bars ... Old Yeller is Loose 😂
Oh hell yeah. If you want straight line action, ignore all of this 😁
@@DeadDodgeGarage I don't , I just don't have the money or time yet to touch it ! I get in it and drive it 20 minutes and shut it down . Best car I've bought in my life yet !
Very informative, thanks!
Of interest again since I want my Challenger to be a great handling road car, not a straight-line racer. But long ago I was told by experts (Global West Suspension at an '80s SEMA show) to not use a very stiff (and especially not a totally rigid, like a Del-A-Lum) LCA bushing on a Mopar because there had to be at least a little lateral give to tolerate the back and forth effect of the strut rods through the LCA's travels. Do you use softer urethane LCA bushings?
Got Moog Problem Solver upper bushings, a factory front sway bar (and new LCAs with the mounting tab), the LCA weld-on plates, and a copcar steering box with cooler (If it will fit). Going to box/reinforce various areas (US CarTool), frame connectors, etc too.
For reasons hard to explain now my car has the 3300# SuperStock rear leaf springs. They didn't used to be desirable for handling applications but they did improve the car way back then when the factory spring had sagged. What would you use for rear springs?
Thanks
Hotchkis makes rear leafs specifically for handling. The pro of the poly LCA is that it can rotate freely. It definitely won’t have much side to side give as you are describing. I haven’t heard of this causing any issues, but I could see how the arc of the strut rod’s travel could potentially strain the bushing. I wonder if those aftermarket adjustable strut rods (with heim joints) could be set up to avoid this.
I’m far from an expert here. My main interest is in cars that work well on the street. I’ve never had to think about the lower bushings this hard. Haha.
The modern hemi swap Challenger I’m working on currently has just about all of this same stuff done already. Braced lower arms, tubular upper, adjustable strut rods, subframe connectors, sway bars of course, and big torsion bars. I have added the inner fender and radiator support braces, and I will be adding torque boxes soon to complete the chassis stiffening package.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I did a lot of reading since earlier and there are folks who say both urethane and delrin (Bergman) LCA bushings are ok as long as you use a quality adjustable strut rod preferably with a heim joint and get it set perfectly. Apparently the effect of the different arcs of motion of the LCA and strut are minimized with the right adjustment but you may not be able to get that 'perfect' setup with stock struts. More research needed.
Still seems like there has to be _some_ motion absorbed at the LCA pivot or the front strut to K-frame connection, and most of the posts seemed to lean towards the OEM type rubber bushings/isolators on the strut to do that so it didn't occur at the LCA pivot; I'm not familiar with the adjustable struts or if they use isolators. At lot fewer folks seemed to want urethane strut isolators compared to bushings on the control arms. Heim joint must be in specific orientation, but I don't see how that deals with the movement unless there's still the rubber isolators.
So much to catch up on. I have the Mopar Suspension book but its packed away... wonder how vastly things have changed since then (1984, where does the time go!)
Great info dude
Things have come along way since having your passengers lean into the turns. :-)
Great video!👍
Cool
The 64 440 doesn’t have front or rear sway bars so are aftermarket bars available for my car?
There sure are! My brother has some on his Fury.
@@DeadDodgeGarage I bet they make a giant difference with roll around corners
@@geebopbaluba1591 Seriously - it's nuts. The front bar alone does a lot, but once you add the rear bar too, the body roll is just gone. It's amazing how well they corner that way. Well enough to find the next weak point... the sidewall of the rear tires 😄
PS when you mentioned steering box options, there are also way to stabilize/strengthen the steering box mounting; there are videos where you can see the area flex when under load. Does your handling work extend to K-frame reinforcement, steering sector support, etc? Your thoughts on those options appreciated!
I have read about it but have never done it. I know some people go all out, backing up all of the factory’s crappy K frame welds, adding braces, etc. If you’re building a track car you should probably look into that. Personally, for what I’m doing, it sounds like overkill - but I completely believe that flexing occurs there. I haven’t seen a sector support on a classic Mopar yet. I’ve seen them on Cummins trucks though, where it’s a really good idea.
@@DeadDodgeGarage 30+ year hiatus on car work has changed the hopes and plans (read that as lower expectations due to price shock and getting older), but I am going to go over the K-frame for any cracks or failing welds; as I do that I expect I'll still do basic reinforcement, because why not? Newer larger stickier tires may require more force to turn at stop/low speed especially if fast ratio steering is still on the menu so loading on the steering box mounts/K-frame may be higher than stock. I bought one of those Firmfeel sector support kits long ago (sadly it is packed) so going to use that too. The reviews when it came out were pretty good.
great explanation as usual . PS How can I get a Dead Dodge Garage cap from where you are to where I am in the UK ???
I think someone over here buying one and shipping it to you would be the easiest way. I would offer to do this myself, but then I have to remember that Stacey has been waiting for me to mail him a shirt for quite a while now 😅 because all of my stuff is made to order by a third party I don’t have them in stock. I need to fix this at some point.
@@DeadDodgeGarage you got a link as to where to buy one , might have a stateside contact
@@linwoodlane7006 go to www.deaddodgegarage.com and click the button that says merch! And thanks!
Where the hell to you live?🤣 I need to see you or your friends to fix my tire issues I can seem to win anything from stock parts to my custom q1 upper a arms it’s a 73 duster 225
Interesting… I’m in western Washington state. Haha.
LCA bushings suck,finally figured out how to take apart easier. Only took about 6 times.😂
@@trojan440 I remember what a pain the first set I did were... That was years ago. I just did the front end in a '73 Charger here and was dreading the LCAs. It...took me ten minutes or less a side. I guess I've learned a whole lot about how to do stuff in the last decade. I'm glad that's where we're at now, because both my Charger and Demon pretty obviously need them. Haha.
Ancient machine🤣🤣🤣
I use that at work
Even the modern ones look very, very similar. Haha. This one was cutting edge with Windows 98. It’s old enough to drink.
People who put coil overs on old mopars go to hell. I yell drunken anger at my neighbor when I see them peaking out the back of his challenger
I’ll stop short of that… but it just seems so wrong to me.
Step #1 - avoid radisl tires.
Avoid…radials? So what, use ancient bias plies?