This is 100% genre dependent. I personally wouldn’t work with a drummer that made me work this hard to mix a record, but I don’t work with super-tight modern metal. Even hip-hop producers will play drum machines in by hand a lot more often than you’d think.
This is kinda wild because I work in more edm/pop and I'm always using sampled drums and the philosophy there is to get those drums off the grid, get some swing, get some feel, and in general stay off the grid unless your intention is a super sterile drum sound Like in most of my tracks, other than the kick and and a few hat/cymbals here and there, almost nothing is landing on the grid and I'm not making anything experimental or weird I'm making pretty standard stuff My only assumption to why this might be the case is since the entirety of a rock recording is generally organic and played by a human, and maybe some off time drums in that case is "too much" feel, whereas in more electronic stuff the drums are one of the easiest places to attain the "feel"
A lot of edm and pop is still quantized even when the drums swing. It's quantized swing, always lands on the same pocket. I think acoustic drums sound better quantized because of how hard it is to be consistent throughout a whole section/song. When programming drums you can easily make stuff swing more or less the same the whole track
another thing with editing drums vs midi sampled drums as well is, even when you edit, there is still a slight variation in timing because transients don't always hit the same. And things like cymbals and kick and snare never hit perfectly at the same time with a real kit either. While with midi, on the grid really is on the grid. So when I use midi drums I always make sure that different kit pieces don't hit at exactly the same time. You want them very close, but at the exact same time can sound kinda weird and fake
I feel like the feel also comes from different genres. In certain genres you want the drums on the grid cause they need to be tight and in the pocket. Other genres you can add some swing to get a different kind of feel. It all depends on the song and what it needs
Have you seen Rick Beato's video where he quantizes John Bonham's drums in "When The Levee Breaks"? Sure, in a hardcore section of hardcore music, quantization is great. But since there is so much prog-core overlap, a lot of our songs are going to have slow, melodic, ballad-esque sections where quantization just sounds awkward. Hearing a drummer naturally speed up a bit on the ride cymbal, slightly rush through a fill, little moments of un-quantized drums can make the performance, and remind the listener - consciously or subconsciously - that they are not just listening to "Drums" but they are listening to A DRUMMER.
No haven't seen that video, but I've seen this video and the results speak for itself. This is a hardcore channel but I guess if you want your mix to sound like Led Zeppelin 4, go for it.
@@sqlb3rn Yeah I am going to want some parts of my mixes to sound like Zeppelin, Rush, more classic rock. But then some parts to sound hardcore. It's prog.
@@christopherharv do you have an example of prog metal that isn't quantized? I don't listen to it much, but when I think of bands like animals as leaders, it sounds nailed to the grid to me.
@@sqlb3rn Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the last 2 AAL albums were spot editted/ quantized but not fully grid locked. I think Matt Garstka hated the sound of it on Joy of Motion so they took it in another direction for the next 2.
Most of my favorite music comes from an era where quantizing drums wasn't a thing. Might be old-school thinking but I feel like quantizing killed a big part of what makes music great. AI will probably push this to its limits one day and next thing you know everyone will suddenly want un-quantized music and real human vocals once again. :) Having worked as a studio engineer for a long time I can see where quantizing can come in handy when your client wants everything to be more on the grid though. P.S. I recently did a video along these lines but the opposite message. ua-cam.com/video/DvuuuzgCMN4/v-deo.html
I think if you're wanting 'top charts' sound, quantized is the way to go. If you're wanting more a gritty sound, quantized is not the way to go. A great example of this is God Hates Us All vs. South of Heaven.
I feel it’s best to listen across different systems and rely on your ears without looking at the grid. If something is distracting, edit it. Nothing wrong? Leave it be. Art allows for value in imperfection.
What the heck is a “top charts” sound and what does quantizing have to do with it? Does it make a bad song into a good one? No, and not quantizing doesn’t turn a great song into a bad one unless it’s so badly played that even a lay person can hear it.
Exactly ! Tempos in metal back in the days were all over the place. There might be a reason why new metal bands have such a hard time to compete with the old ones.
I preferred the unedited in the 1st/3rd example but edited in the silverstein example. I'm a drummer of 30yrs myself. Also context matters alot. I don't work on bands that sound like top 40 metal/rock. I tend to work on bands that are trying to emulate old school death metal and black metal. The raw sloppyness sometimes has a charm to it. I say only quantize what needs to be quantized.
Devin townsend mentioned in an interview a few years ago is that he only quantizes the 1 and then lets everything groove in between. I thought that was cool and i've used that method and it works
I'm also a fan of a similar style drum editing. Putting a lot of the Quarters closer or on the grid, and allowing the 8ths, 16ths or otherwise to move more. Also, some fills or bars can feel better when rushed or slowed. I often make subtle tempo adjustments to more accurately depict the feel that I like when composing and performing as a band.
There is such a thing as playing behind or ahead of the click. Also if other instruments have already played/recorded to the unquantized drums it could definitely make things sound off once the drums get quantized
Yes, but you have to be able to hear it first, and I don't think that Jordan can. Hearing subtleties in rhythm/time takes years to master, and is arguably much harder than hearing subtleties of intonation in pitched music. The thing is that whilst most people can't hear it, they can feel it. So it matters.
You've obviously never heard of Omar Hakim......he can put any part of the kit (kick, snare, hats) ahead or behind the click, all independent of each other. I presume any good drummer can do this.
Gavin's drums unedited sounded better - the grid version sounded too mechanical, and this is coming from someone who usually puts drums on the grid. The best drummers hit early or late on purpose, to aid the ebb and flow. Plus audiences don't expect quantised drums, that's something the industry tells itself to justify its own practices. I would use your own judgement based on the type of music and level of musicianship.
The audience certainly does expect quantized drums, they just wouldn't be able to communicate that; but they certainly aren't going to by unpolished turds. At least you actually work with music unlike most of the commenters on these YT vids. TY for that.
I honestly think unquantized one of Gavin Harrison’s feels definitely better than fully quantized one. Quantized one doesn’t necessarily “ruin” it, but it never gets “better” to my ears.
I think that most examples did sound better when quantized, but with Gavin Harrison's track I'd definitely keep the take he sent. I do believe that one flows way better. It all depends on intent and how it fits with the arrangement of course. But daaaamn, that original take grooves so hard!
I grew up on quantized music but I love going back and listening to the isolated drums/bass from bands like Nirvana, Anthrax, Interpol, and others who cut the rhythm tracks live off the floor. I don't think they would have been the same if they were quantized. They also fluctuate within a range of BPM, usually ending faster than they started. If done well it just sounds so nice. It's tough to hear flaws in the timing of those recordings unless you're actively looking for them. But on a fixed tempo grid those flaws become more apparent, and I think that's why it doesn't sound as good without quantization.
@@Dave-Rough-Diamond-Dunn are you referring to the drums on Songs for the Deaf by QOTSA? If so yeah the shells and cymbals were done separately to eliminate bleed. I don’t think any 90s Nirvana/FF drums were doubled but if you have an example I’d love to hear it. Edit - Forgot about the doubled drums in the intro to “My Hero”
Love your videos. Have to disagree with you on this issue, though. While drums that are too loose are not as effective, your two last examples had more groove and a human feel than the quantized versions, IMOP.
I feel the Same way here, the feel was gone as soon as it was quantized to grid, sounded like a drum machine, I think that good editing is to know when to leave it alone and when to align to the grid.
Gotta disagree with you on this. Quantized drums sound like what the drummer was meaning to play but just couldn’t quite do. Most of the “feel” in the drum groove isn’t from the drums being unquantized it’s from the change of tone and perceived volume of the quarter note, eight note, and sixteenth note hits typically coming from the drummers hi hat or ride pattern. Now quantizing every instrument can become problematic but in my experience I want drums on the grid as the glue in the track and the other instruments can play behind or ahead of the beat depending on what feels right. That’s my personal preference anyway. Everyone is different.
I hear you bro, though. You wouldn't want to leave it all "unquantized" because of all in the name of machinery feel or human feel on drums you will have to quantize the bad parts which will make you wanna fix the other remaining parts you left on purpose... So I agree with him💪
Do you play the drums, by any chance? Your perspective seems to be that of a musician. Every musician does not want their performance tampered with, because they feel that they are “good enough“ all by themselves. I felt this way initially, too. However, the first time that I went in in quantized the drums on a track, I really did get the feeling that I was that much closer to having a radio ready track. Keep in mind that what you were doing here is not for you; it is for the listener. Much of what you were doing is Bringing out the best in the recordings. Sometimes, that is going to mean that you have to quantize the drums to the grill, because the drummer isn’t nailing the part (most drummers won’t). I will say this, as well: he makes an excellent point that you do not hear anything on modern radio that is not quantized, so, if you do not quantize your drums, or at least edit them to get them very close to the grid, you are putting your track at a disadvantage. While we as engineers can, see the “artistic value” in raw, sounding recordings and tracks, the vast majority of the audience will not see it that way. They will see it as an amateur sounding performance.
I believe this depends on the genere, innit? HipHop tutorials suggest that offgrid drums are better :-? Does this apply to Hiphop? Or House for example? 4 on the floor definitely needs swings. I'm new to your channel if this only applies to rock, my bad! You do great work, keep it up!
I have much respect for this man especially in terms of his approach to eq, compression, midrange focus, and other very helpful gems he gives out freely. I think he is right that quantized drums are necessary to compete in the current paradigm of music production. I also think that perfectly in time drums don't sound bad on the surface level. However, I think something being overlooked is the human's deep need for honesty. I believe people on a deep level can sense when something has been altered so much that it is no longer an accurate representation of what is possible. Many people won't care too much, just like most people don't mind eating Mcdonald's even though they know that they are ingesting more of an imitation of food rather than actual food. But for myself and many others, the dishonesty is bothersome, and I prefer the vulnerability of an artist leaving in their human limitations for what I consider to be a higher purpose. The Moon and Antarctica (2000) by Modest Mouse was mind blowing for me when I first listened because of the fact that they left in many imperfections, including the timing of the drummer. I was disappointed when their future releases were much more heavy handed with correcting the bands timing.
Yes, I like Jordan's production videos too, but he is wrong on this issue. Also, a few weeks back he was saying that AI won't end up doing mixing because humans look for that "human thing" in music, and yet here he is advocating for the removal of human feeling in music (not in the first example-that was an obvious improvement, but certainly for the second two).
If I were in the position of hiring a producer to help me make a hit record, this is one of the last people I would ask. Why? Because he’s making it all about himself and his knob twiddling skills. It reminds me of recent graduates of Full Sail, who think just because they got a degree that they know everything. Meanwhile there’s no soul, no fire, just bland shit that never stands out.
@@simonwalker2073listen to Linkin Park: they have perfectly aligned drums (sometimes they're even programmed) but they don't feel unnatural. That's because feel in drums is way more than timing, it's dynamics that really make or break. Does it freak you out not to have tempo fluctuations? Adjust the BPM to change in different parts of the song!
As a musician and bass player, I've never worked with a drummer that had to be quantised, I've been lucky enough to be able to cut and paste their stems all over the place without the slightest timing issues. Maybe if the clock is against a session and the drums aren't flowing right or the drummer is pissed drunk, but quantising just for the sake of it, no thank you.
For my own recordings, I always quantize my drums before recording any other instrument. It has always helped me and my own band on recording, which made the rest of the tracking and mixing a lot easier.
@@lylaznboi01 Then the drums don't need to be on a grid to help the band with recording as you posted. Hey, its art, and more important your art, create it as you wish. For sure there is no rights or wrongs, just creative decisions. I was offering up an alternative.
You do you bro. Some people happen to like the push-pull magic in slight timing variations. Same goes for slight pitch variation between vocalists. When you remove all the fluctuations, the ethereal quality dies. You can move the grid to the hits or create a dynamic tempo map and tighten up anything that's too out of place from there. I would also point out that one of the most common knocks that I see on album reviews from all over is "obvious, lifeless, locked-to-the-grid drums." I see it review after review, which makes me suspect that you have received this critique yourself. Hence this one-way-to-skin-a-cat video.
Do you feel like that response always applies, or is there a time and a place? Horses for courses = genre & song appropriate? I tend to lean your way. Imagine quantizing John Bonham 😱
@@sham8723 I think genre/style can be the difference. For example, hip-hop, edm, pop-punk, etc. can all be thrown on a grid and be to the poofteenth tight. It seems to be part of the sound of those genres. But from my experience playing heavy rock, or metal to a perfectly gridlocked beat always feels a little restricted. Not necessarily wrong. But just a pinch restrictive, stiff, and or robostatic. As soon as I make a few small adjustments to the tempo map and play again with slightly varying bpm, it just feels right for me somehow. But I guess I spent a long time playing with actual drummers. I would suppose if you grew up playing along with nothing but samplers, perhaps you would prefer that feeling of absolute unwavering bpm?
@Jrod Dicklington I agree, and often the band will snap to each other's imperfections (we hope), so I figure if you quantize drums.... maybe it pulls them away from the band... and now it's tighter to the metronome but not tighter to each other... and now you gotta quantize everything to bring it back together... then evaluate that change both broadly and at an individual instrument level.... Seems less absolute if you have good musicians and are concerned with preserving something inherently valuable in their performance, rather than trying to remove the shortcomings to elevate it to where it should have been if they were more talented or had been more disciplined. I think the social media age where people are connected to music by companies seeking to connect everyone with their specific interests will help break the rigid mold of radio edit mandates. While cutting a ton of potential profitability out of the industry... small subdivided monetization makes it easier for musicians to be more human and still market themselves when there are now more success metrics than the skewed radio play charts that dominated previous decades and divided things into mainstream and underground. In other words, I think in 2023, you can maybe get away with more of the human element than in 2001 and sell your music, but I could be wrong and that probably is heavily genre skewed.
@@THEJRODIUS Good hip hop producers actually don't put everything straight to a grid. Kenny beats went on record saying he moves stuff slightly off grid to get different interactions between the transients and more of a swinged feeling
i just don't like it when people put up these heavily sampled and quantized playthroughs on youtube. it's extremely misleading and it also sounds like shit.
I'm a drummer and I definitely think quantizing made the second two tracks worse. You should send this video to Gavin Harrison and ask his opinion. He will be hearing things that you're not.
Sloppy Drummer here ... The main thing with the Gavin example that stood out for me was the change in the Hi Hats, I preferred the before. I also liked the rushing between the snare and kick for the Silverstein track, it has a different energy. The other examples had super straight grooves so benefit from tightening up. Would you quantise Dilla beats?
I think the person who made this video is listening to see which take lines up in his mind with the grid being the objective. The purpose of drums is not to be mathematically flawless but to create a groove with a feel and a vibe. It will make it easier for him as a producer to align other things to it by quantizing everything else. It is similar to how someone with no artistic skill might recreate a Van Gogh with a paint by numbers kit.
It is probably because i have a trained ear but, regarding non edited examples, i can imagine the drummers playing and feel where they aim to put energy and emphasis in the second and third example (even if it was probably already edited with taste), where "on the grid" versions sound like programmed drums. The first example wasn't so great to start with and the edited version is fine but still not great or exciting. I don't know, i'm a bit torn on this topic but it is facinating to me. Does quantize Gavin Harrison or the second guy would made them sell more records? Does the real performance (if not midi from the start) of the top 10 billboard drummers could have made them sell less? Does who buys this records can tell the difference? For now my idea is that is way more complex and nuanced than saying quantized drums sounds always better and sells more
I agree that it’s a nuanced issue with a lot of impossible questions lol. I’m delving into it recently and one thing I noticed straight away was that the mix I’d already done on a tune, prior to editing the drums, became clearer. I was thinking how this makes sense, if the beats are in the ‘right’ place, the transients of the instruments around the beats can better express themselves in relation to the beat. If it’s a band tracking live the argument is that the musicians push and pull against each other to form the groove, but the drummer is most likely playing to a click the others aren’t hearing anyway. So, the drummer will be adjusting to the click and the others to the drummer, rather than say, the drummer and bass player covering for each other slipping. So how ‘organic’ is it if it’s tracked live? If it’s a well rehearsed band that tracks tight live, you could kill the groove by quantising, but if the parts are tracked individually, there’s not really a good reason not to quantise the drums and have everyone else track to that. But I remember a post from gearspace an engineer said a good song with a good vocal trumps everything else you can do in the recording or mixing stage. The Strokes did that well when they came out, just as an example 🤙🏼
@@tommy9951 for me It again depends on the band and the music, if an iconic drummer is known for keeping a bit of shuffle on the 8 or 16th notes or vice versa is it right to quantize him? At the same time would we like to hear unquantized blastbeats from archspire or lorna shore? Of course is nuanced..
Sorry but without the other elements of the song we don't have enough context to make a judgment on "feel." I wonder how in the second example how that 16th note kick(after the snare) @3:41 feels in context to the music?
Fully agree. I learned from nolly, that even with programmed drum, they key for real sounding tracks is the dynamics/velocity. If you make sure the single hits/articulations are dynamic, this really goes a long way even if the hits are perfectly on the grid. I still move certain hits very gently off the grid but mainly during drum breaks or on the cymbals
Would you mind elaborating on your last sentence? Other than feel, is there a particular reason why you might pull drums off the grid slightly during an exposed part?
I disagree with you here Jordan. And your opinion is very tilted towards a narrow scope of genre/music. Maybe in punk and rigid metal stuff. How bout styles with swing? Rage Against the Machine, Deftones, or hip hop? Danny Carey's drums in Tool are not quantized. Some tightening can be beneficial for sure, but every beat on the grid is ridiculous. Maybe the 1, and possibly even 2s and 4s with your strong snare beats, but everything in between? Thats extreme and does not improve "feel" as a result.
I think this is absolutely correct in the style that you’re editing here. The feel of these kinds of tunes IS locked in drums, with other instruments often playing around the grid that the drums provide. It’s absolutely not true in some genres, IMO. At least, not with every hit. I have yet to bring a jazz ensemble into the studio that sounds better with every single hit on the grid. Every time I’ve tried to edit drums in that style, it sounds significantly worse and absolutely DOES ruin the feel. I would love to hear your thoughts on how you might mix/edit a completely different style of music.
@@gregchapman3519 if the musician are talented, it sounds good, doesnt need editing. Human small mistakes are part of the beauty, are part of the emotion. ( If mistakes are not too obvious of course.) Music nowadays sounds too robotic and flat, too perfect, like photoshop, when they make the skin perfect.
I think the quantized version is LESS MARKED*. Using unquantized rhythms can give an exciting sound in the same way that all kinds of other exotic rhythms do, but it has the same drawbacks as anything else exotic: What attracts attention is off-putting as much as it can be exciting or colorful. What's interesting about slightly off rhythms is that how off they are can create a spectrum of markedness from the fully quantized feeling to really wonky feelings people would hesitate to even transcribe with normal rhythms. Thus, I think the real important tip is not to always quantize and blindly assume it will make it "better", but to seriously try it rather than blindly assuming it will make it worse, and you can even try editing it to other unquantized rhythms if you're really adventurous. It's important to note that this is not just a producer issue: It starts with the drummer (and all the musicians actually). If you want the quantized sound in the end, the drummer should probably start out trying to play precisely (though it might not matter that much). If you're not going to edit the rhythm at all, that just means it's up to the drummer to produce what exact unquantized rhythm you want. *I just realized I'm using linguistics jargon here.
Great video and great channel. You got yourself a new subscriber. I am actually quantising guitars and pianos at the minute. There are a lot of instruments in this project I am working on, so getting them more on grid will address some of the chaos in the margin.
Jordan, for what it’s worth I agree 100%. For those who disagree (and you’re entitled to) consider this. 40 years ago, a debut record from a band would either sound sloppy, because they were inexperienced, or stiff, because they were just trying to “get it right”. It would often take a lot of touring and a couple albums before a band developed the proper chemistry to perform in the studio. Bands these days don’t have that kind of time. They need to sound as if they have a lot more experience right out of the gate. And drum editing is an important step in that process. Loose playing does not automatically equal good feel. Sometimes loose is just sloppy. Speaking as a musician, feel is created when you apply stressed and unstressed attacks to evenly metered music. In other words, once you can play in time, a largely predictable pattern of accents creates the feel. That’s the foundation. If a band can’t get there on there own, they need help. And editing is a good place to start.
@@DerSilvano That is an excellent point. And I've seen that sort of thing happen a lot. However, if you're watching an energetic band on stage, any inconsistencies in the performance can be attributed to the stage show. It's hard to play every riff perfectly when you're jumping around. We, the audience, accept that. Consider also that most bands (big and small) play along with backing tracks these days, which helps keep the performance from straying too far away from the recorded version. Now consider that in a recording, there is no visual element to distract you from performance inconsistencies. Kiss figured this out in the '70s when they released "Alive!" They multitracked the recording at the shows, corrected mistakes in the studio, created loops of audience noise to create the desired ambience for each moment, and they layered recordings of canon explosions on top of the sound of the pyro. The goal was to capture (in Paul Stanley's words) the "essence" of a Kiss show. And in my opinion, it worked. That album is an awesome listening experience. These days, record producers simply take that same approach and apply it to studio recordings. I think the decision to follow Jordan's recommendations or not comes down to how you view the purpose of recording music. Is it to create an awesome listening experience for the audience? Or does it serve as a time capsule of sorts, documenting what a band is capable of at a given time? Ulitmately, the band and/or producer needs to make the choice. I heard Joe Satriani in an interview once say that "there are no rules, just cause and effect." I think he's right. Sometimes I quantize the parts, sometimes I don't. But my reasons will be determined by the song rather than an overriding philosophy. In this case, I think Jordan's absolutely right when he suggests developing this skill. You never know when it will come in handy, even if you don't believe in it as a general rule. I'd also add that the producer is the one who usually gets blamed for a band's sloppy performance on a record. It's not always fair, but it's been my experience.
Good discussions guys! I think every producer has their own style and preferences, which makes them unique. One interview showed two engineering assistants for a major studio recording into autotune without even hearing the track.....
Love your channel and, unfortunately, I think you're right that most listeners expect it, but I disagree that it sounds better. Other than, perhaps, your first example, I much preferred the clips you played, prior to quantization.
I'm more inclined to think to quantize drums for pop, dance or any kind of music that is planned to be remixed in the sense for transforming the arrangement into a different feel, such as making something like a pop song into a dance or hip-hop mix but songs like metal or rock which are not trying to cater to being remixed would be not quantized because the drummer may purposely want to be "late" on a certain hit. Rick Beato deconstructed Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and noted how the drummer was purposely "late" during the song's opening and how it accentuated the kick.
I love how Jordan is just showing how to achieve the sound of the songs that get millions of streams today and people just don't wanna hear it and say he's wrong. It's not even just his opinion, it's just the way the world is, it's reality, and people just "disagree" with the facts.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 well, yeah? If a band wants to sound like the modern bands that many people listen to, then modern production techniques need to be applied. There are always exceptions (Iron Maiden have never played to a click), but that's what they are. Exceptions.
@@mrcoatsworth429 I'm not sure why someone would make their goal to have an unlistenably bad mix, but if you imitate every other band with that sound, you'll get it. The whole idea that that's the only solution to the question of how to mix your metal album is the problem I'm pointing out.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 Yeah, nobody is saying you have to do that to the music you're mixing or making yourself. But people come here to learn how to sound like... I don't know... Architects, Periphery, Silverstein,... and then they're shocked that they have to quantize the drums and tune the vocals.
@@DerSilvano I hear what you're saying. But consider this: You're a mixing engineer and a band wants you to mix their album. They send you a bunch of modern metal tracks with quantized drums and tuned vocals and say, "make it sound like that." Are you gonna do what it takes to sound like that or what?
People started using quantized drums when they got to disco music. I think what happens with quantized drums is that the brain knows they’re going to be there, and therefore your brain is tuning them out [in order] to listen to what else is there. - Jerry Harrison
Dude, I just thought the same thing))) I feel like, quantized drums just don’t drag your attention from something more important in the mix. Quantized drums just feel more “relaxed” to your brain. I guess you can use it as a trick to highlight some of the parts in the composition
One thing is that the “feel” is created by the entire band moving around the grid, not just the drummer. There are multitracks of famous records out there where drums when isolated just sound questionable, however in a pack it all falls into places.
My only experience editing drums being with VST drums like Superior Drummer, I like to keep it on the grid except for fills. I like to humanize the timing with what I call "drift" - I'll nudge the hits around on a fill to mimic how real players usually rush through their fill and make it just SLIGHTLY ahead of the grid. If it's a fill of 6 tom hits, I'll start the first tom hit just slightly ahead of the grid (late), and then the final 6th hit will land a bit behind the grid (early). It helps sync it up with my guitar performance too, since as a real human guitarist I sometimes rush through a difficult passage (a "guitar fill", if you will) and by the end of it I'm a little early on the notes. Point is, I'm okay with quantization for most of the song but I really don't like the sound of it on fills. Not just on my own mixes but on professional and famous recordings too, the quantized drum fill sounds so fake to my ears.
You always have great tips on mixing and the most important thing you ever said was to not care about what plugins show on the GUI but how they sound. Couldn't disagree more on the quantization though. Is music better because of it? I would say music is mostly terrible now because everyone has the same sound in pretty much all genres. People can't even play their songs! Yes there was punch ins and all sorts of tricks used before, but bands would play their songs as a unit and be able to replicate any part almost perfectly while performing live. Maybe I'm already an old fart, but I grew up on the Beatles, Nirvana and classical music. Music sucks today compared to the glorious era where you had to have amazing songs to even step into a studio. Quantize Ringo and yeah, it will suck. Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath... come on! Music is victim of the same thing movies are afflicted by : fear of RISK.
So what I've noticed is that when you edit your drums (stretch them into quantization), even if you edit them all together, there is some phase weirdness going on. If you want to use the captured sound and not rely on samples, it always sounds worse. Am I missing something?
I liked the unedited Silverstein more I think , but I wouldn't underestimate how much our preferences or beliefs influence our perceptions of what we hear , see and like, There is a reason we say a lot of art is subjective, Interesting though , I use Ezdrummer3 and it is humanised by default from what I was told. If you follow this theory though wouldn't everything sound better quantized? but it's good to know , if everyone is doing something doesn't mean you have to do it, but it might be a good idea lol
I’ve thought about this a lot lately. Sometimes I quantize entire songs. Sometimes I just quantize certain sections that feel a little off. And sometimes I don’t quantize at all. Yes, every single artist in the top whatever quantizes their drums to fit today’s standards. But also, wouldn’t you stand out against the norm if you had a great song with some natural un-quantized push and pull from a good drummer? At the end of the day it really doesn’t matter. The golden rule in audio/music that some people seem to forgot is “if it sounds good, then it’s good”. We have to serve the songs, not our egos.
Strongly disagree. You should not ALWAYS quantize drums, you may do it if you wish. It depends on the genre and the vibe of the song. I personally prefer the unquantizes Gavin Harrison part and yes I can hear the difference. Check out “Dilla Time: The Life and Afterlife of J Dilla” by Dan Charnas, Rey interesting J Dill biography and music history book. J Dilla made a carrier for using “sloppy”/unquantized drum beats.
Probably goes without saying, but this also depends on the genre. Hiphop producers purposefully offset drums, playing dragged/rushed to get groove. Same goes for funk/soul/blues drummers. I thought you were spot on in regards to the first and second example, but on the third, the original had much more soul to the rhythm, IMHO.
Yeah, too bad they didn't quantize Charlie Watts on "Honkytonk Women", that would have made it better! I can see you're view from the early 2000's on when the musician's were not of a high caliber compared to the previous decades and they had to be fixed but can you imagine doing this to John Bonham? Actual Rick Beato did in one of his videos and it did not make it better in any way, just more mechanical and stiff. But, I do see your point for most not so good drummers in not so good bands. Your Silverstein example, I actually preferred the non-quantized version, the beats breathed more, more human feel like the way we presume they would play them live.
I usually agree with everything you say.. I disagree here. The quantized pro drummers do not sound better. Makes it sound like a machine with samples. I’m not disagreeing with the industry standard being exactly that, but I disagree with you saying that the feel remains or improves.
Jordan does a great job explaining how things are done in today’s industry. Almost all of the producers the guys from URM have all say the same thing. If you’re an aspiring engineer/producer and wanna get clients, you have to learn how to edit drums.
Hate to be a dick here, but it just sounds like that drummer needs to practice and get his footwork down. Nothing wrong with a nudge here or there, but every single hit? Just use a drum program at that point.
If we were to define "ruining the feel" as making something unlistenable, then quantising Gavin Harrison definitely didn't ruin the feel. It still made it sound far worse though imo. I think there far too many producers who assume that just because something looks better on a grid, it must also sound better. It's completely case by case imo and to me, the idea that you should "always" quantise the drums I consider to be an example of production dogma.
I was playing around with my bass track the other day, wondering if I should tighten it up or nudge it a bit to adjust for the very slight latency caused by running it through a variety of plugins and 'printing' it to another track. What I found might relate to the problem some people might have with aligning drums to the grid. Some notes seem to be early or late, and in some ways they are, but when you zoom in on the grid further, you see that they are early or late by a measured amount, a portion of the beat. If you don't zoom in close enough, you'd move them and they'd snap to the grid, and be on the beat, but zoom in further, and they might snap to a 16th, or even finer. So if you're not zooming in far enough to give you a finer grid, you might actually lose some of the 'feel' because the hit or note, is no longer attacking the beat, or no longer sitting in the pocket (just behind the beat). It probably applies more to percussion, and instruments like bass and guitar, but I can see that not zooming in far enough to give you a finer grid might cause problems, and a loss of feel.
i was in the "dont edit to death" camp for a long time, now mind you, i am an amateur mixer at best. i recorded something here and there, mixed here and there, but NOTHING has made my mixes sound better than proper editing, and by that i mean editing each and every hit to the grid. makes for tighter guitar parts, less editing there, makes for better bass-kickdrum relationship... it just makes everything sound better, more precise, and gets rid of so much mud. i even have the experience of recording two projects back to back, one i did with "sloppy" editing, where i simply fixed what was completely off, and one project where i snapped each note to the grid - and the differences couldnt be more drastic.
So I'd say I agree with your take for 90+% of what you'd get from most drummers,...even really good ones. For the elite class like Gavin (even the Silverstein drummer's pass) the quantizing didn't make it sound better IMO. So, why do it. Also, I'd say certain styles/genres/songs benefit from dynamics of push and pull. For super tight metal and hard rock -- editing/quantizing, yes, I'd agree it generally makes the song sound better.
Tbh, if there actually is a feel in the recording, quantizing drums is going to change it, if there's no feel, quantizing drums is going to make the feel.
As a drummer, I sound in my head like I'm on the grid, until I play it back. Like singers and tuning. No one wants to sing 8cents flat. If it's gonna compete it's gotta be plumb square and level.
I agree!Its just boring for amateurs to editing the drums but once you`re doing correctly you love it!Please give 2-3 days of your life to study and practice how to quantize your music correctly!
I agree with Jordan. I’ve been drumming for 25 years and I have no problem with feel in a breaking benjamin song from an amazing drummer Chad Szeliga with great “feel.”
Totally agree. What I've noticed is that a lot of the "groove" actually comes from where the bass and guitar players play RELATIVE to the drums. When I slam the drums to the grid and then track the bass and guitar parts after, I've noticed that THEY still create a pocket that just feels great...and I'll still nudge some of those a bit tighter too...depending on how far things are off.
idk, lol to me this feels like a no brainer. Drums should always be quantized and on the grid. Most songs(genre depending) should be on a tempo. I get the concern of feel but that's more of a dynamics kind of thing. I didn't see how this was even a discussion lol. I understand for maybe a percussion part or instrument in the song that may not need to be quantized but basic drums should be.
In my opinion I think it all depends on the band/song/part , because personally in most of the examples i felt like the quantized versions were worst and definitely had less feel, you could believe it’s MIDI with a bit with a bit of velocity change. Altough, depending on what aesthetic the song calls for, in context with the other instruments it can definitely elevate a song when it’s needed, and it can be very helpful to fix a part that was off, but I feel like it’s wrong to say you should ALWAYS quantize them, I don’t think you should ALWAYS do anything in a mix, it’s always different from one to the other
in the third video, you absolutely killed the vibe. it just feels rigid when it was grooving beforehand. In general, I agree with you that most garage level drummers absolutely sound better on the grid. it's not even questionable. but there is a point where the groove is intentionally pushed or pulled, and quantizing that out, kills the vibe. Yes, it sounds smooth, and the hits sound the same but that actual feel... different. not bad, just not same.
Since I use EZ drummer, the drum samples I use are already lined up. Nothing I do is live drums. If it was, yes, quantize. Also, easier to quantize with a kit of Roland V-Drums or some other physical MIDI drum kit, since you then have the drum midi-data. Everything I do, the drums come first. I also have a marker track for each section of the song to line my drums up to. You can always insert cool little section and hooks in-between sections.
I watched a video by shootie school, he states that Ezdrummer3 midi are all ready humanized by default. ua-cam.com/video/5mYq6K3dPGY/v-deo.html here is the video , I assume that they where quantized too , and you had to humanise manually but that doesn't seem to be the case according to this guy.
Great video Jordan. As a long time record producer and drummer using pro tools I just simply hate using the quantize function. It works when it works but when it doesn't it's complete garbage. My process these days is to just work my ass off and do a billion takes/playlists then comp everything together then manually edit any parts that feel off. I will note that if I'm working with looped or programmed drums hell yes I'll grab the quantize button when possible. I actually released a single of my own recently where I didnt do any quantizing or major editing I just did a bunch of takes and it actually has a pretty cool real early 90's west coast grunge feel and is one of the more popular songs I've released. Of course I'm a full time recording engineer/producer so I know how to track drums but you get what I'm saying. All in all I agree with you 100%, the people want their music to be in time!! Thank you so much for this vid, you are the man Jordan!
I started quantizing drums since a friend of mine mixed one of my band's song and he quantized the drums. He tought me how to do it and I've done it since then.
one thing i can say for myself....yes quantized drums allow the whole song to be tighter. in most cses the song will not lack feel if its well written and the flow and dynamics are good
Editing is a powerful tool, and can certainly help push things to where they need to be to get the most out of a song. But the Gavin Harrison example grooved WAY harder before it was edited. If it was edited in the first place, then that's an example of a great edit, but then Gavin probably really is that tight.
I was going to reply something similar.... imo you can't judge the feel of a song by listening and working the drums alone... the feel is about the entire arrangement... and if you tracked all in a single session and just quantize the drums this is not going to end well - and if you instead quantize everything then... I'd like to A/B between all unquantized and all quantized :) And, finally, what if the song has unconscious speed fluctuations? With quantize you're doomed...
Man I'd be so scared for you to listen or see my work lol but now that I follow your channel I've been working super hard to get it together. I'll start looking into this. I never record to the correct tempo listed and I should... but I don't do any moving or editing in that sort... yet.
I think if your drums are losing feel after quantizing, maybe back off a bit. Do 1/4 notes instead of 16th/32nd notes. Put in your tempo changes. I notice a lot of 80’s music will speed up in the chorus, then slow back down for verses. Then the wow and flutter from the rose machines had to be doing something. There an emulation for that yet?
As a drummer, I prefer to listen to drummers who play either slightly behind the beat like John Bonham, Steve Gadd, Ringo, Phil Rudd, Jeff Porcaro which gives a song a certain swagger, or slightly ahead of the beat such as Stewart Copeland to give a song an incredible forward momentum. To my ears, drum tracks that are quantizied lose their personality and start sounding the same.
In music, it’s normal to have slight errors in recording! We’re not robots or human metronomes that’s why practicing with metronomes help you to stay in time but there’d still be errors. Quantizing is very essential
Fascinating video. THANK you. Six words, however: Ringo Starr Charlie Watts Keith Moon. Were these drummers quantized? I don't think quantized drum parts are worse, but I don't think un-quantized drum parts are bad. I wouldn't tune vocals either. Maybe it is just a matter of preference.
So, here’s a real world example of why it’s a good idea to quantize your drums… backing tracks for live performances. I will usually make the decision to quantize on a song by song basis but that may change. I’ve put together a band to play my original songs, most of which came from an album I recorded a few years ago. Most of the songs I edited to the grid. No problem… mute the unneeded tracks and bounce out what’s left for a backing track. There were a couple of tunes however that were not edited to the grid. The drummer had a nice ebb and flow that I felt worked so I edited everything to the drummer’s performances. The problem is, now the needed backing tracks don’t line up with the click so I have to spend time editing the tracks to match the click. It’s not a huge pain in the ass but just annoying enough that I wish I did the quantizing in the first place. To be fair, I never thought I would be running a band that would need backing tracks, but a lot has changed in the past few years and here I am.
I was going to say you left out a key factor but you snuck it in there at the end. Quantized drums make everything else sound tighter. It’s usually the case that if I hear something poking out or just feeling a little off in a mix it’s because that beat or note is not to the grid tight enough. Like you said. Get the quantizing down and perfected and then you can start leaving certain things loose if it calls for it. Very good advice that most people just don’t want to hear.
I think for many styles of music, quantizing is a good idea. But in groovier music styles, the drummer is making choices about where the snare hits in relation to the beat. It could still be quantized but care should be taken and 100% should be avoided. You don't need to see waveforms to hear that a lot of funk grooves have the kick and snare playing on the same beat and there's a bit of a flam. That's intentional and shouldn't be "fixed"- I love all of your videos. Even this one. Keep it up!
Silverstein sounds and feel good edited. Nick Johnson Gavin Harrison kills the feel of more loose and groovy song. Definitly kills the feel in that song IMO. It's all contextual purpose
Totally agree but with the understanding that all the other instruments need to be recorded after the drums are edited and quantized or else they will be out of groove/time.
Editing and quantizing is beyond important, but I would love to hear your thoughts on tempo mapping and having a grid that represents the drums (even if they’re edited) rather than the tempo your session is set to. I’ve got really compelling results from this in blues/live-off-the-floor rock, which I first heard about from Eric Valentine
I have to disagree. I suppose there’s a time and a place when you need to quantize and while it doesn’t always kill the feel it often does. I’m a huge fan and I’m very grateful for your knowledge. It has made me a much better engineer. I can see why occasionally metal might need to be quantized, but I can’t imagine what the police or Led Zeppelin would sound like if you quantized those drums! God bless you and thanks again for what you’re doing.
I love your videos, but you're only seeing a slice of the picture here. You're correct that the drums need to be tight, in that they repeat the same way each measure within a certain % of accuracy. But in most music, drummers do things like push on the 1 and lay a little behind on the 3, or the 8th or 16th notes push and pull. The key is that that push/pull repeats every measure. And then not every band member usually does that push/ pull the same. For example, if both the drummer and bassist play on top of the beat it may sound rushed, but if the drummer is on top and the bassist lays back a bit, that's where it makes your body move. Depends on what your going for, but I use the "does it make my body move" test. Just go into a DAW and check out all the Groove Quantize options. Those exist for a reason. Put a busy drum groove on several tracks, each with a different groove quantize setting, and zoom in and compare.
I actually learn how to edit drums in reaper (there some specific tools like adjusting the grid by mouseweel and more). This is a breeze when you know how to do it well, but if you saying that it will ruin the "feel", that's only because you upset after 12 hours of editing drums if you don't know how to do it well)))
I find it hard to tell without the rest of the music tbh. I think sometimes you have particular hits that drag or push in response to the rest of the musical content but tbh I reckon cases like this are very much the exception rather than the rule.
The opening fill from Gavin Harrison sounded better before the edit. Not sure if I was hearing things but the snare sound changed also but not in a major way. Would this not also mean that all the instruments that he played to, now have to be adjusted. I'm sure they play around the click as well. That would mean the groove Gavin put to this track would be altered. That said I love the album to which this track is from.
I use Getgood drums and haven't recorded drums for some time. Everything is on grid when programming tracks for my music. Do you have any advice to people who just use programmable drums?
I would think that you should give them what they want and it they think it sound terrible, suggest they try it with their drums quantized. Maybe what sounded great sounded "too perfect" when they wanted something that sounded raw to them.
@jordanValeriote or anyone else.... all new to this and wondering what website(s) you use to buy/download a bands full mix projects to import to Protools or other DAW so I can play around with mixes?
I think people confuse obviously fake sounding samples with gridded drums. When every snare hit sounds the same it’s really easy to tell it’s perfectly gridded. The dynamics and slight fluctuations need to be there, even if you are reinforcing with a 1-shot the feel and dynamics are important to keep it from sounding robotic.
Seems most people miss the fact that this type of editing is almost always done in the context a full mix with several instruments doing their own thing. Out of context, yes I agree with those who prefer Gavin's unedited drums. But in the context of a mix, locked in sounds better and it actually gives the other instruments more freedom to be off the grid while still feeling tight.
Drums on the grid sound a little odd solo but better in the mix. I think the misconception on the this is those using programmed virtual drums where every hit is the same velocity. The lack of dynamics is what makes it sound like a drum machine in the mix, not the timing
Gavin is a top 1% player. And honestly he Probly could care less if his performance was altered. The difference wasn't that big. I've been playing drums professionally for 22 years now and unfortunately this is what most labels and productions do as standard procedure. It is what it is. The amount it moves the drums on a good player is a so small live people wouldn't notice a difference. Every single modern production is quantized.
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This is 100% genre dependent. I personally wouldn’t work with a drummer that made me work this hard to mix a record, but I don’t work with super-tight modern metal. Even hip-hop producers will play drum machines in by hand a lot more often than you’d think.
This is kinda wild because I work in more edm/pop and I'm always using sampled drums and the philosophy there is to get those drums off the grid, get some swing, get some feel, and in general stay off the grid unless your intention is a super sterile drum sound
Like in most of my tracks, other than the kick and and a few hat/cymbals here and there, almost nothing is landing on the grid and I'm not making anything experimental or weird I'm making pretty standard stuff
My only assumption to why this might be the case is since the entirety of a rock recording is generally organic and played by a human, and maybe some off time drums in that case is "too much" feel, whereas in more electronic stuff the drums are one of the easiest places to attain the "feel"
A lot of edm and pop is still quantized even when the drums swing. It's quantized swing, always lands on the same pocket. I think acoustic drums sound better quantized because of how hard it is to be consistent throughout a whole section/song. When programming drums you can easily make stuff swing more or less the same the whole track
another thing with editing drums vs midi sampled drums as well is, even when you edit, there is still a slight variation in timing because transients don't always hit the same. And things like cymbals and kick and snare never hit perfectly at the same time with a real kit either. While with midi, on the grid really is on the grid. So when I use midi drums I always make sure that different kit pieces don't hit at exactly the same time. You want them very close, but at the exact same time can sound kinda weird and fake
I feel like the feel also comes from different genres. In certain genres you want the drums on the grid cause they need to be tight and in the pocket. Other genres you can add some swing to get a different kind of feel. It all depends on the song and what it needs
Have you seen Rick Beato's video where he quantizes John Bonham's drums in "When The Levee Breaks"?
Sure, in a hardcore section of hardcore music, quantization is great. But since there is so much prog-core overlap, a lot of our songs are going to have slow, melodic, ballad-esque sections where quantization just sounds awkward. Hearing a drummer naturally speed up a bit on the ride cymbal, slightly rush through a fill, little moments of un-quantized drums can make the performance, and remind the listener - consciously or subconsciously - that they are not just listening to "Drums" but they are listening to A DRUMMER.
No haven't seen that video, but I've seen this video and the results speak for itself. This is a hardcore channel but I guess if you want your mix to sound like Led Zeppelin 4, go for it.
@@sqlb3rn Yeah I am going to want some parts of my mixes to sound like Zeppelin, Rush, more classic rock. But then some parts to sound hardcore. It's prog.
@@christopherharv do you have an example of prog metal that isn't quantized? I don't listen to it much, but when I think of bands like animals as leaders, it sounds nailed to the grid to me.
@@sqlb3rn Yeah AaL obviously, but idk I think the latest Arch/Matheos release isn't quantized, at least not 100%
@@sqlb3rn Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the last 2 AAL albums were spot editted/ quantized but not fully grid locked. I think Matt Garstka hated the sound of it on Joy of Motion so they took it in another direction for the next 2.
Most of my favorite music comes from an era where quantizing drums wasn't a thing. Might be old-school thinking but I feel like quantizing killed a big part of what makes music great. AI will probably push this to its limits one day and next thing you know everyone will suddenly want un-quantized music and real human vocals once again. :) Having worked as a studio engineer for a long time I can see where quantizing can come in handy when your client wants everything to be more on the grid though. P.S. I recently did a video along these lines but the opposite message. ua-cam.com/video/DvuuuzgCMN4/v-deo.html
I think if you're wanting 'top charts' sound, quantized is the way to go. If you're wanting more a gritty sound, quantized is not the way to go. A great example of this is God Hates Us All vs. South of Heaven.
Agree! Editing is cool but saying "you have to do it always" is silly.
I feel it’s best to listen across different systems and rely on your ears without looking at the grid. If something is distracting, edit it. Nothing wrong? Leave it be. Art allows for value in imperfection.
What the heck is a “top charts” sound and what does quantizing have to do with it? Does it make a bad song into a good one? No, and not quantizing doesn’t turn a great song into a bad one unless it’s so badly played that even a lay person can hear it.
Exactly ! Tempos in metal back in the days were all over the place. There might be a reason why new metal bands have such a hard time to compete with the old ones.
I preferred the unedited in the 1st/3rd example but edited in the silverstein example. I'm a drummer of 30yrs myself. Also context matters alot. I don't work on bands that sound like top 40 metal/rock. I tend to work on bands that are trying to emulate old school death metal and black metal. The raw sloppyness sometimes has a charm to it. I say only quantize what needs to be quantized.
Nailed it. I've always been more in a grindy/skramzy vein but I feel like you'd understand the overall sound I'm after.
Idk that first one was pretty sloppy. I needed it.
Devin townsend mentioned in an interview a few years ago is that he only quantizes the 1 and then lets everything groove in between. I thought that was cool and i've used that method and it works
I'm also a fan of a similar style drum editing. Putting a lot of the Quarters closer or on the grid, and allowing the 8ths, 16ths or otherwise to move more.
Also, some fills or bars can feel better when rushed or slowed. I often make subtle tempo adjustments to more accurately depict the feel that I like when composing and performing as a band.
There is such a thing as playing behind or ahead of the click. Also if other instruments have already played/recorded to the unquantized drums it could definitely make things sound off once the drums get quantized
Yes, but you have to be able to hear it first, and I don't think that Jordan can. Hearing subtleties in rhythm/time takes years to master, and is arguably much harder than hearing subtleties of intonation in pitched music. The thing is that whilst most people can't hear it, they can feel it. So it matters.
@@simonwalker2073 I agree when he didn't hear it so he didn't feel it or understand it, he sure confuse - -" but I hope he will eventually understand.
You've obviously never heard of Omar Hakim......he can put any part of the kit (kick, snare, hats) ahead or behind the click, all independent of each other. I presume any good drummer can do this.
@@DonHalli You could, but it depends what you are going for. In many cases, quantizing the drums takes the feel or groove away.
@@fredflintstone1428 I had the pleasure of attending a drum clinic seminar thing with Omar. Such a great player and nice guy.
Gavin's drums unedited sounded better - the grid version sounded too mechanical, and this is coming from someone who usually puts drums on the grid. The best drummers hit early or late on purpose, to aid the ebb and flow. Plus audiences don't expect quantised drums, that's something the industry tells itself to justify its own practices. I would use your own judgement based on the type of music and level of musicianship.
The audience certainly does expect quantized drums, they just wouldn't be able to communicate that; but they certainly aren't going to by unpolished turds. At least you actually work with music unlike most of the commenters on these YT vids. TY for that.
Agree
I honestly think unquantized one of Gavin Harrison’s feels definitely better than fully quantized one. Quantized one doesn’t necessarily “ruin” it, but it never gets “better” to my ears.
Yes, it's a bit less tight but it "feels" way better, breathes more for some reason...
I think that most examples did sound better when quantized, but with Gavin Harrison's track I'd definitely keep the take he sent. I do believe that one flows way better. It all depends on intent and how it fits with the arrangement of course. But daaaamn, that original take grooves so hard!
Certainly at least with the fill off the top and when he catches onto the beat. The feel with his swing was much better
I guarantee you'd pick the edited version in a blind test. The edited one definitely "flows" way better.
I grew up on quantized music but I love going back and listening to the isolated drums/bass from bands like Nirvana, Anthrax, Interpol, and others who cut the rhythm tracks live off the floor. I don't think they would have been the same if they were quantized. They also fluctuate within a range of BPM, usually ending faster than they started. If done well it just sounds so nice. It's tough to hear flaws in the timing of those recordings unless you're actively looking for them. But on a fixed tempo grid those flaws become more apparent, and I think that's why it doesn't sound as good without quantization.
RATM another great example.
Dave Grohl double tracks his drums, that's how tight his playing is!
@@Dave-Rough-Diamond-Dunn tight doesn't mean on the grid though.
@@Dave-Rough-Diamond-Dunn are you referring to the drums on Songs for the Deaf by QOTSA? If so yeah the shells and cymbals were done separately to eliminate bleed. I don’t think any 90s Nirvana/FF drums were doubled but if you have an example I’d love to hear it. Edit - Forgot about the doubled drums in the intro to “My Hero”
Nirvanas drums on Nevermind were definitely edited and Andy Wallace used samples. He’d trigger the snare on the backbeat and leave the fills.
Love your videos. Have to disagree with you on this issue, though. While drums that are too loose are not as effective, your two last examples had more groove and a human feel than the quantized versions, IMOP.
I feel the Same way here, the feel was gone as soon as it was quantized to grid, sounded like a drum machine, I think that good editing is to know when to leave it alone and when to align to the grid.
Especially the last one
Gotta disagree with you on this. Quantized drums sound like what the drummer was meaning to play but just couldn’t quite do. Most of the “feel” in the drum groove isn’t from the drums being unquantized it’s from the change of tone and perceived volume of the quarter note, eight note, and sixteenth note hits typically coming from the drummers hi hat or ride pattern. Now quantizing every instrument can become problematic but in my experience I want drums on the grid as the glue in the track and the other instruments can play behind or ahead of the beat depending on what feels right. That’s my personal preference anyway. Everyone is different.
I hear you bro, though. You wouldn't want to leave it all "unquantized" because of all in the name of machinery feel or human feel on drums you will have to quantize the bad parts which will make you wanna fix the other remaining parts you left on purpose... So I agree with him💪
Do you play the drums, by any chance?
Your perspective seems to be that of a musician. Every musician does not want their performance tampered with, because they feel that they are “good enough“ all by themselves. I felt this way initially, too.
However, the first time that I went in in quantized the drums on a track, I really did get the feeling that I was that much closer to having a radio ready track. Keep in mind that what you were doing here is not for you; it is for the listener. Much of what you were doing is Bringing out the best in the recordings. Sometimes, that is going to mean that you have to quantize the drums to the grill, because the drummer isn’t nailing the part (most drummers won’t).
I will say this, as well: he makes an excellent point that you do not hear anything on modern radio that is not quantized, so, if you do not quantize your drums, or at least edit them to get them very close to the grid, you are putting your track at a disadvantage. While we as engineers can, see the “artistic value” in raw, sounding recordings and tracks, the vast majority of the audience will not see it that way. They will see it as an amateur sounding performance.
I believe this depends on the genere, innit? HipHop tutorials suggest that offgrid drums are better :-? Does this apply to Hiphop? Or House for example? 4 on the floor definitely needs swings. I'm new to your channel if this only applies to rock, my bad! You do great work, keep it up!
I have much respect for this man especially in terms of his approach to eq, compression, midrange focus, and other very helpful gems he gives out freely. I think he is right that quantized drums are necessary to compete in the current paradigm of music production. I also think that perfectly in time drums don't sound bad on the surface level. However, I think something being overlooked is the human's deep need for honesty. I believe people on a deep level can sense when something has been altered so much that it is no longer an accurate representation of what is possible. Many people won't care too much, just like most people don't mind eating Mcdonald's even though they know that they are ingesting more of an imitation of food rather than actual food. But for myself and many others, the dishonesty is bothersome, and I prefer the vulnerability of an artist leaving in their human limitations for what I consider to be a higher purpose. The Moon and Antarctica (2000) by Modest Mouse was mind blowing for me when I first listened because of the fact that they left in many imperfections, including the timing of the drummer. I was disappointed when their future releases were much more heavy handed with correcting the bands timing.
Yes, I like Jordan's production videos too, but he is wrong on this issue. Also, a few weeks back he was saying that AI won't end up doing mixing because humans look for that "human thing" in music, and yet here he is advocating for the removal of human feeling in music (not in the first example-that was an obvious improvement, but certainly for the second two).
If I were in the position of hiring a producer to help me make a hit record, this is one of the last people I would ask. Why? Because he’s making it all about himself and his knob twiddling skills. It reminds me of recent graduates of Full Sail, who think just because they got a degree that they know everything. Meanwhile there’s no soul, no fire, just bland shit that never stands out.
@@simonwalker2073listen to Linkin Park: they have perfectly aligned drums (sometimes they're even programmed) but they don't feel unnatural. That's because feel in drums is way more than timing, it's dynamics that really make or break. Does it freak you out not to have tempo fluctuations? Adjust the BPM to change in different parts of the song!
As a musician and bass player, I've never worked with a drummer that had to be quantised, I've been lucky enough to be able to cut and paste their stems all over the place without the slightest timing issues. Maybe if the clock is against a session and the drums aren't flowing right or the drummer is pissed drunk, but quantising just for the sake of it, no thank you.
For my own recordings, I always quantize my drums before recording any other instrument. It has always helped me and my own band on recording, which made the rest of the tracking and mixing a lot easier.
Or use a click track to achieve the same purpose allowing you to gain drums with a soul.
@@sword-and-shield I do use a click track?????
@@lylaznboi01 Then the drums don't need to be on a grid to help the band with recording as you posted. Hey, its art, and more important your art, create it as you wish. For sure there is no rights or wrongs, just creative decisions. I was offering up an alternative.
@@sword-and-shield Well, there wasn't any need for that kind of advice. You do what you want to do when it comes to drums and I'll do it my way.
@@lylaznboi01 Yeah there was, you just don't comprehend it, clearly.
You do you bro. Some people happen to like the push-pull magic in slight timing variations. Same goes for slight pitch variation between vocalists. When you remove all the fluctuations, the ethereal quality dies. You can move the grid to the hits or create a dynamic tempo map and tighten up anything that's too out of place from there. I would also point out that one of the most common knocks that I see on album reviews from all over is "obvious, lifeless, locked-to-the-grid drums." I see it review after review, which makes me suspect that you have received this critique yourself. Hence this one-way-to-skin-a-cat video.
Do you feel like that response always applies, or is there a time and a place? Horses for courses = genre & song appropriate?
I tend to lean your way. Imagine quantizing John Bonham 😱
@@sham8723 I think genre/style can be the difference. For example, hip-hop, edm, pop-punk, etc. can all be thrown on a grid and be to the poofteenth tight. It seems to be part of the sound of those genres. But from my experience playing heavy rock, or metal to a perfectly gridlocked beat always feels a little restricted. Not necessarily wrong. But just a pinch restrictive, stiff, and or robostatic. As soon as I make a few small adjustments to the tempo map and play again with slightly varying bpm, it just feels right for me somehow. But I guess I spent a long time playing with actual drummers. I would suppose if you grew up playing along with nothing but samplers, perhaps you would prefer that feeling of absolute unwavering bpm?
@Jrod Dicklington
I agree, and often the band will snap to each other's imperfections (we hope), so I figure if you quantize drums.... maybe it pulls them away from the band... and now it's tighter to the metronome but not tighter to each other... and now you gotta quantize everything to bring it back together... then evaluate that change both broadly and at an individual instrument level....
Seems less absolute if you have good musicians and are concerned with preserving something inherently valuable in their performance, rather than trying to remove the shortcomings to elevate it to where it should have been if they were more talented or had been more disciplined.
I think the social media age where people are connected to music by companies seeking to connect everyone with their specific interests will help break the rigid mold of radio edit mandates. While cutting a ton of potential profitability out of the industry... small subdivided monetization makes it easier for musicians to be more human and still market themselves when there are now more success metrics than the skewed radio play charts that dominated previous decades and divided things into mainstream and underground.
In other words, I think in 2023, you can maybe get away with more of the human element than in 2001 and sell your music, but I could be wrong and that probably is heavily genre skewed.
@@THEJRODIUS Good hip hop producers actually don't put everything straight to a grid. Kenny beats went on record saying he moves stuff slightly off grid to get different interactions between the transients and more of a swinged feeling
i just don't like it when people put up these heavily sampled and quantized playthroughs on youtube. it's extremely misleading and it also sounds like shit.
I'm a drummer and I definitely think quantizing made the second two tracks worse. You should send this video to Gavin Harrison and ask his opinion. He will be hearing things that you're not.
Sloppy Drummer here ... The main thing with the Gavin example that stood out for me was the change in the Hi Hats, I preferred the before. I also liked the rushing between the snare and kick for the Silverstein track, it has a different energy. The other examples had super straight grooves so benefit from tightening up. Would you quantise Dilla beats?
I think the person who made this video is listening to see which take lines up in his mind with the grid being the objective. The purpose of drums is not to be mathematically flawless but to create a groove with a feel and a vibe. It will make it easier for him as a producer to align other things to it by quantizing everything else. It is similar to how someone with no artistic skill might recreate a Van Gogh with a paint by numbers kit.
When drums are quantized that human feel is lost and just sounds dead.
It is probably because i have a trained ear but, regarding non edited examples, i can imagine the drummers playing and feel where they aim to put energy and emphasis in the second and third example (even if it was probably already edited with taste), where "on the grid" versions sound like programmed drums. The first example wasn't so great to start with and the edited version is fine but still not great or exciting.
I don't know, i'm a bit torn on this topic but it is facinating to me. Does quantize Gavin Harrison or the second guy would made them sell more records? Does the real performance (if not midi from the start) of the top 10 billboard drummers could have made them sell less? Does who buys this records can tell the difference? For now my idea is that is way more complex and nuanced than saying quantized drums sounds always better and sells more
I agree that it’s a nuanced issue with a lot of impossible questions lol. I’m delving into it recently and one thing I noticed straight away was that the mix I’d already done on a tune, prior to editing the drums, became clearer. I was thinking how this makes sense, if the beats are in the ‘right’ place, the transients of the instruments around the beats can better express themselves in relation to the beat. If it’s a band tracking live the argument is that the musicians push and pull against each other to form the groove, but the drummer is most likely playing to a click the others aren’t hearing anyway. So, the drummer will be adjusting to the click and the others to the drummer, rather than say, the drummer and bass player covering for each other slipping. So how ‘organic’ is it if it’s tracked live? If it’s a well rehearsed band that tracks tight live, you could kill the groove by quantising, but if the parts are tracked individually, there’s not really a good reason not to quantise the drums and have everyone else track to that. But I remember a post from gearspace an engineer said a good song with a good vocal trumps everything else you can do in the recording or mixing stage. The Strokes did that well when they came out, just as an example 🤙🏼
@@tommy9951 for me It again depends on the band and the music, if an iconic drummer is known for keeping a bit of shuffle on the 8 or 16th notes or vice versa is it right to quantize him? At the same time would we like to hear unquantized blastbeats from archspire or lorna shore?
Of course is nuanced..
Sorry but without the other elements of the song we don't have enough context to make a judgment on "feel." I wonder how in the second example how that 16th note kick(after the snare) @3:41 feels in context to the music?
I was thinking the same thing. I’d like to hear these examples within the entire mix
Fully agree. I learned from nolly, that even with programmed drum, they key for real sounding tracks is the dynamics/velocity. If you make sure the single hits/articulations are dynamic, this really goes a long way even if the hits are perfectly on the grid. I still move certain hits very gently off the grid but mainly during drum breaks or on the cymbals
Would you mind elaborating on your last sentence? Other than feel, is there a particular reason why you might pull drums off the grid slightly during an exposed part?
I disagree with you here Jordan. And your opinion is very tilted towards a narrow scope of genre/music. Maybe in punk and rigid metal stuff.
How bout styles with swing? Rage Against the Machine, Deftones, or hip hop? Danny Carey's drums in Tool are not quantized.
Some tightening can be beneficial for sure, but every beat on the grid is ridiculous. Maybe the 1, and possibly even 2s and 4s with your strong snare beats, but everything in between? Thats extreme and does not improve "feel" as a result.
I think this is absolutely correct in the style that you’re editing here. The feel of these kinds of tunes IS locked in drums, with other instruments often playing around the grid that the drums provide. It’s absolutely not true in some genres, IMO. At least, not with every hit. I have yet to bring a jazz ensemble into the studio that sounds better with every single hit on the grid. Every time I’ve tried to edit drums in that style, it sounds significantly worse and absolutely DOES ruin the feel. I would love to hear your thoughts on how you might mix/edit a completely different style of music.
Jesus. The unedited Gavin Harrison track sounds far better than the edited, I know Gavin doesn't grid his drums ever.. he's just that good.
He absolutely doesn't need editing. It was a bit of a ridiculous example.
@@taks359 wasn't it just. Just completely ruined it.
@@gregchapman3519 if the musician are talented, it sounds good, doesnt need editing. Human small mistakes are part of the beauty, are part of the emotion. ( If mistakes are not too obvious of course.) Music nowadays sounds too robotic and flat, too perfect, like photoshop, when they make the skin perfect.
100%. Off grid played by an elite musician is the best way.
I think the quantized version is LESS MARKED*. Using unquantized rhythms can give an exciting sound in the same way that all kinds of other exotic rhythms do, but it has the same drawbacks as anything else exotic: What attracts attention is off-putting as much as it can be exciting or colorful. What's interesting about slightly off rhythms is that how off they are can create a spectrum of markedness from the fully quantized feeling to really wonky feelings people would hesitate to even transcribe with normal rhythms. Thus, I think the real important tip is not to always quantize and blindly assume it will make it "better", but to seriously try it rather than blindly assuming it will make it worse, and you can even try editing it to other unquantized rhythms if you're really adventurous.
It's important to note that this is not just a producer issue: It starts with the drummer (and all the musicians actually). If you want the quantized sound in the end, the drummer should probably start out trying to play precisely (though it might not matter that much). If you're not going to edit the rhythm at all, that just means it's up to the drummer to produce what exact unquantized rhythm you want.
*I just realized I'm using linguistics jargon here.
1) If they both feel the same, why quantize
2) "do what everyone else is doing" to "compete"
Calling it now- troll video/engagement farming.
1)they don't
2)do what the pros are doing
I think dynamics and consistency also plays a big part in retaining the feel, when editing drums to the grid.
Exactly it’s all about velocities. Feel has to do with dynamics of each hit
Great video and great channel.
You got yourself a new subscriber.
I am actually quantising guitars and pianos at the minute. There are a lot of instruments in this project I am working on, so getting them more on grid will address some of the chaos in the margin.
I would love some more videos on editing. Could you please go over editing guitars and getting everything to line up and hit as a unit? Thanks!
+1
Jordan, for what it’s worth I agree 100%. For those who disagree (and you’re entitled to) consider this. 40 years ago, a debut record from a band would either sound sloppy, because they were inexperienced, or stiff, because they were just trying to “get it right”. It would often take a lot of touring and a couple albums before a band developed the proper chemistry to perform in the studio. Bands these days don’t have that kind of time. They need to sound as if they have a lot more experience right out of the gate. And drum editing is an important step in that process.
Loose playing does not automatically equal good feel. Sometimes loose is just sloppy. Speaking as a musician, feel is created when you apply stressed and unstressed attacks to evenly metered music. In other words, once you can play in time, a largely predictable pattern of accents creates the feel. That’s the foundation. If a band can’t get there on there own, they need help. And editing is a good place to start.
@@DerSilvano That is an excellent point. And I've seen that sort of thing happen a lot. However, if you're watching an energetic band on stage, any inconsistencies in the performance can be attributed to the stage show. It's hard to play every riff perfectly when you're jumping around. We, the audience, accept that. Consider also that most bands (big and small) play along with backing tracks these days, which helps keep the performance from straying too far away from the recorded version.
Now consider that in a recording, there is no visual element to distract you from performance inconsistencies. Kiss figured this out in the '70s when they released "Alive!" They multitracked the recording at the shows, corrected mistakes in the studio, created loops of audience noise to create the desired ambience for each moment, and they layered recordings of canon explosions on top of the sound of the pyro. The goal was to capture (in Paul Stanley's words) the "essence" of a Kiss show. And in my opinion, it worked. That album is an awesome listening experience.
These days, record producers simply take that same approach and apply it to studio recordings. I think the decision to follow Jordan's recommendations or not comes down to how you view the purpose of recording music. Is it to create an awesome listening experience for the audience? Or does it serve as a time capsule of sorts, documenting what a band is capable of at a given time?
Ulitmately, the band and/or producer needs to make the choice. I heard Joe Satriani in an interview once say that "there are no rules, just cause and effect." I think he's right. Sometimes I quantize the parts, sometimes I don't. But my reasons will be determined by the song rather than an overriding philosophy. In this case, I think Jordan's absolutely right when he suggests developing this skill. You never know when it will come in handy, even if you don't believe in it as a general rule. I'd also add that the producer is the one who usually gets blamed for a band's sloppy performance on a record. It's not always fair, but it's been my experience.
Good discussions guys! I think every producer has their own style and preferences, which makes them unique. One interview showed two engineering assistants for a major studio recording into autotune without even hearing the track.....
Love your channel and, unfortunately, I think you're right that most listeners expect it, but I disagree that it sounds better. Other than, perhaps, your first example, I much preferred the clips you played, prior to quantization.
I'm more inclined to think to quantize drums for pop, dance or any kind of music that is planned to be remixed in the sense for transforming the arrangement into a different feel, such as making something like a pop song into a dance or hip-hop mix but songs like metal or rock which are not trying to cater to being remixed would be not quantized because the drummer may purposely want to be "late" on a certain hit. Rick Beato deconstructed Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and noted how the drummer was purposely "late" during the song's opening and how it accentuated the kick.
I love how Jordan is just showing how to achieve the sound of the songs that get millions of streams today and people just don't wanna hear it and say he's wrong. It's not even just his opinion, it's just the way the world is, it's reality, and people just "disagree" with the facts.
Not everyone likes modern metal production though. If you want to sound like every other boring band, produce your album just like they did.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 well, yeah? If a band wants to sound like the modern bands that many people listen to, then modern production techniques need to be applied.
There are always exceptions (Iron Maiden have never played to a click), but that's what they are. Exceptions.
@@mrcoatsworth429 I'm not sure why someone would make their goal to have an unlistenably bad mix, but if you imitate every other band with that sound, you'll get it.
The whole idea that that's the only solution to the question of how to mix your metal album is the problem I'm pointing out.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 Yeah, nobody is saying you have to do that to the music you're mixing or making yourself.
But people come here to learn how to sound like... I don't know... Architects, Periphery, Silverstein,... and then they're shocked that they have to quantize the drums and tune the vocals.
@@DerSilvano I hear what you're saying. But consider this: You're a mixing engineer and a band wants you to mix their album. They send you a bunch of modern metal tracks with quantized drums and tuned vocals and say, "make it sound like that." Are you gonna do what it takes to sound like that or what?
Soooo, i can leave my midi drums on the grid now? Instead of "humanizing" them?
People started using quantized drums when they got to disco music. I think what happens with quantized drums is that the brain knows they’re going to be there, and therefore your brain is tuning them out [in order] to listen to what else is there. - Jerry Harrison
Dude, I just thought the same thing))) I feel like, quantized drums just don’t drag your attention from something more important in the mix. Quantized drums just feel more “relaxed” to your brain. I guess you can use it as a trick to highlight some of the parts in the composition
That's just not true
One thing is that the “feel” is created by the entire band moving around the grid, not just the drummer. There are multitracks of famous records out there where drums when isolated just sound questionable, however in a pack it all falls into places.
My only experience editing drums being with VST drums like Superior Drummer, I like to keep it on the grid except for fills. I like to humanize the timing with what I call "drift" - I'll nudge the hits around on a fill to mimic how real players usually rush through their fill and make it just SLIGHTLY ahead of the grid. If it's a fill of 6 tom hits, I'll start the first tom hit just slightly ahead of the grid (late), and then the final 6th hit will land a bit behind the grid (early). It helps sync it up with my guitar performance too, since as a real human guitarist I sometimes rush through a difficult passage (a "guitar fill", if you will) and by the end of it I'm a little early on the notes.
Point is, I'm okay with quantization for most of the song but I really don't like the sound of it on fills. Not just on my own mixes but on professional and famous recordings too, the quantized drum fill sounds so fake to my ears.
You always have great tips on mixing and the most important thing you ever said was to not care about what plugins show on the GUI but how they sound. Couldn't disagree more on the quantization though. Is music better because of it? I would say music is mostly terrible now because everyone has the same sound in pretty much all genres. People can't even play their songs! Yes there was punch ins and all sorts of tricks used before, but bands would play their songs as a unit and be able to replicate any part almost perfectly while performing live. Maybe I'm already an old fart, but I grew up on the Beatles, Nirvana and classical music. Music sucks today compared to the glorious era where you had to have amazing songs to even step into a studio. Quantize Ringo and yeah, it will suck. Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath... come on! Music is victim of the same thing movies are afflicted by : fear of RISK.
So what I've noticed is that when you edit your drums (stretch them into quantization), even if you edit them all together, there is some phase weirdness going on. If you want to use the captured sound and not rely on samples, it always sounds worse. Am I missing something?
I liked the unedited Silverstein more I think , but I wouldn't underestimate how much our preferences or beliefs influence our perceptions of what we hear , see and like, There is a reason we say a lot of art is subjective, Interesting though , I use Ezdrummer3 and it is humanised by default from what I was told. If you follow this theory though wouldn't everything sound better quantized? but it's good to know , if everyone is doing something doesn't mean you have to do it, but it might be a good idea lol
I’ve thought about this a lot lately. Sometimes I quantize entire songs. Sometimes I just quantize certain sections that feel a little off. And sometimes I don’t quantize at all. Yes, every single artist in the top whatever quantizes their drums to fit today’s standards. But also, wouldn’t you stand out against the norm if you had a great song with some natural un-quantized push and pull from a good drummer? At the end of the day it really doesn’t matter. The golden rule in audio/music that some people seem to forgot is “if it sounds good, then it’s good”. We have to serve the songs, not our egos.
thanks for the video. Should I also quantize bass-guitar and other instruments?
Strongly disagree. You should not ALWAYS quantize drums, you may do it if you wish. It depends on the genre and the vibe of the song. I personally prefer the unquantizes Gavin Harrison part and yes I can hear the difference. Check out “Dilla Time: The Life and Afterlife of J Dilla” by Dan Charnas, Rey interesting J Dill biography and music history book. J Dilla made a carrier for using “sloppy”/unquantized drum beats.
Probably goes without saying, but this also depends on the genre. Hiphop producers purposefully offset drums, playing dragged/rushed to get groove. Same goes for funk/soul/blues drummers. I thought you were spot on in regards to the first and second example, but on the third, the original had much more soul to the rhythm, IMHO.
Yeah, too bad they didn't quantize Charlie Watts on "Honkytonk Women", that would have made it better! I can see you're view from the early 2000's on when the musician's were not of a high caliber compared to the previous decades and they had to be fixed but can you imagine doing this to John Bonham? Actual Rick Beato did in one of his videos and it did not make it better in any way, just more mechanical and stiff. But, I do see your point for most not so good drummers in not so good bands. Your Silverstein example, I actually preferred the non-quantized version, the beats breathed more, more human feel like the way we presume they would play them live.
I usually agree with everything you say.. I disagree here. The quantized pro drummers do not sound better. Makes it sound like a machine with samples. I’m not disagreeing with the industry standard being exactly that, but I disagree with you saying that the feel remains or improves.
agree
Jordan does a great job explaining how things are done in today’s industry. Almost all of the producers the guys from URM have all say the same thing. If you’re an aspiring engineer/producer and wanna get clients, you have to learn how to edit drums.
Hate to be a dick here, but it just sounds like that drummer needs to practice and get his footwork down. Nothing wrong with a nudge here or there, but every single hit? Just use a drum program at that point.
If we were to define "ruining the feel" as making something unlistenable, then quantising Gavin Harrison definitely didn't ruin the feel. It still made it sound far worse though imo. I think there far too many producers who assume that just because something looks better on a grid, it must also sound better. It's completely case by case imo and to me, the idea that you should "always" quantise the drums I consider to be an example of production dogma.
I was playing around with my bass track the other day, wondering if I should tighten it up or nudge it a bit to adjust for the very slight latency caused by running it through a variety of plugins and 'printing' it to another track.
What I found might relate to the problem some people might have with aligning drums to the grid.
Some notes seem to be early or late, and in some ways they are, but when you zoom in on the grid further, you see that they are early or late by a measured amount, a portion of the beat.
If you don't zoom in close enough, you'd move them and they'd snap to the grid, and be on the beat, but zoom in further, and they might snap to a 16th, or even finer.
So if you're not zooming in far enough to give you a finer grid, you might actually lose some of the 'feel' because the hit or note, is no longer attacking the beat, or no longer sitting in the pocket (just behind the beat).
It probably applies more to percussion, and instruments like bass and guitar, but I can see that not zooming in far enough to give you a finer grid might cause problems, and a loss of feel.
Bro I love your videos so much , they inspired me to do my own, But nooooo advice is so devoid of awareness of other genres
i was in the "dont edit to death" camp for a long time, now mind you, i am an amateur mixer at best. i recorded something here and there, mixed here and there, but NOTHING has made my mixes sound better than proper editing, and by that i mean editing each and every hit to the grid. makes for tighter guitar parts, less editing there, makes for better bass-kickdrum relationship... it just makes everything sound better, more precise, and gets rid of so much mud. i even have the experience of recording two projects back to back, one i did with "sloppy" editing, where i simply fixed what was completely off, and one project where i snapped each note to the grid - and the differences couldnt be more drastic.
So I'd say I agree with your take for 90+% of what you'd get from most drummers,...even really good ones. For the elite class like Gavin (even the Silverstein drummer's pass) the quantizing didn't make it sound better IMO. So, why do it. Also, I'd say certain styles/genres/songs benefit from dynamics of push and pull. For super tight metal and hard rock -- editing/quantizing, yes, I'd agree it generally makes the song sound better.
Tbh, if there actually is a feel in the recording, quantizing drums is going to change it, if there's no feel, quantizing drums is going to make the feel.
As a drummer, I sound in my head like I'm on the grid, until I play it back. Like singers and tuning. No one wants to sing 8cents flat. If it's gonna compete it's gotta be plumb square and level.
I agree!Its just boring for amateurs to editing the drums but once you`re doing correctly you love it!Please give 2-3 days of your life to study and practice how to quantize your music correctly!
I agree with Jordan. I’ve been drumming for 25 years and I have no problem with feel in a breaking benjamin song from an amazing drummer Chad Szeliga with great “feel.”
Totally agree. What I've noticed is that a lot of the "groove" actually comes from where the bass and guitar players play RELATIVE to the drums. When I slam the drums to the grid and then track the bass and guitar parts after, I've noticed that THEY still create a pocket that just feels great...and I'll still nudge some of those a bit tighter too...depending on how far things are off.
idk, lol to me this feels like a no brainer. Drums should always be quantized and on the grid. Most songs(genre depending) should be on a tempo. I get the concern of feel but that's more of a dynamics kind of thing. I didn't see how this was even a discussion lol. I understand for maybe a percussion part or instrument in the song that may not need to be quantized but basic drums should be.
In my opinion I think it all depends on the band/song/part , because personally in most of the examples i felt like the quantized versions were worst and definitely had less feel, you could believe it’s MIDI with a bit with a bit of velocity change. Altough, depending on what aesthetic the song calls for, in context with the other instruments it can definitely elevate a song when it’s needed, and it can be very helpful to fix a part that was off, but I feel like it’s wrong to say you should ALWAYS quantize them, I don’t think you should ALWAYS do anything in a mix, it’s always different from one to the other
in the third video, you absolutely killed the vibe. it just feels rigid when it was grooving beforehand. In general, I agree with you that most garage level drummers absolutely sound better on the grid. it's not even questionable. but there is a point where the groove is intentionally pushed or pulled, and quantizing that out, kills the vibe. Yes, it sounds smooth, and the hits sound the same but that actual feel... different. not bad, just not same.
Since I use EZ drummer, the drum samples I use are already lined up. Nothing I do is live drums.
If it was, yes, quantize.
Also, easier to quantize with a kit of Roland V-Drums or some other physical MIDI drum kit, since you then have the drum midi-data.
Everything I do, the drums come first. I also have a marker track for each section of the song to line my drums up to. You can always insert cool little section and hooks in-between sections.
I watched a video by shootie school, he states that Ezdrummer3 midi are all ready humanized by default. ua-cam.com/video/5mYq6K3dPGY/v-deo.html here is the video , I assume that they where quantized too , and you had to humanise manually but that doesn't seem to be the case according to this guy.
Great video Jordan. As a long time record producer and drummer using pro tools I just simply hate using the quantize function. It works when it works but when it doesn't it's complete garbage. My process these days is to just work my ass off and do a billion takes/playlists then comp everything together then manually edit any parts that feel off. I will note that if I'm working with looped or programmed drums hell yes I'll grab the quantize button when possible. I actually released a single of my own recently where I didnt do any quantizing or major editing I just did a bunch of takes and it actually has a pretty cool real early 90's west coast grunge feel and is one of the more popular songs I've released. Of course I'm a full time recording engineer/producer so I know how to track drums but you get what I'm saying. All in all I agree with you 100%, the people want their music to be in time!! Thank you so much for this vid, you are the man Jordan!
I started quantizing drums since a friend of mine mixed one of my band's song and he quantized the drums. He tought me how to do it and I've done it since then.
Sounds as drum machine - no swing - it's stupid standard - even AC DC playing with grooves
one thing i can say for myself....yes quantized drums allow the whole song to be tighter. in most cses the song will not lack feel if its well written and the flow and dynamics are good
Editing is a powerful tool, and can certainly help push things to where they need to be to get the most out of a song. But the Gavin Harrison example grooved WAY harder before it was edited.
If it was edited in the first place, then that's an example of a great edit, but then Gavin probably really is that tight.
Do you have a video on quantizing drums after the whole band has been tracked? I know it’s best to do it before tracking guitars, vocals, etc.
I was going to reply something similar.... imo you can't judge the feel of a song by listening and working the drums alone... the feel is about the entire arrangement... and if you tracked all in a single session and just quantize the drums this is not going to end well - and if you instead quantize everything then... I'd like to A/B between all unquantized and all quantized :)
And, finally, what if the song has unconscious speed fluctuations? With quantize you're doomed...
Man I'd be so scared for you to listen or see my work lol but now that I follow your channel I've been working super hard to get it together. I'll start looking into this. I never record to the correct tempo listed and I should... but I don't do any moving or editing in that sort... yet.
I think if your drums are losing feel after quantizing, maybe back off a bit. Do 1/4 notes instead of 16th/32nd notes. Put in your tempo changes. I notice a lot of 80’s music will speed up in the chorus, then slow back down for verses. Then the wow and flutter from the rose machines had to be doing something. There an emulation for that yet?
Great great content, Congrats.
As a drummer, I prefer to listen to drummers who play either slightly behind the beat like John Bonham, Steve Gadd, Ringo, Phil Rudd, Jeff Porcaro which gives a song a certain swagger, or slightly ahead of the beat such as Stewart Copeland to give a song an incredible forward momentum. To my ears, drum tracks that are quantizied lose their personality and start sounding the same.
In music, it’s normal to have slight errors in recording! We’re not robots or human metronomes that’s why practicing with metronomes help you to stay in time but there’d still be errors. Quantizing is very essential
Fascinating video. THANK you. Six words, however: Ringo Starr Charlie Watts Keith Moon. Were these drummers quantized? I don't think quantized drum parts are worse, but I don't think un-quantized drum parts are bad. I wouldn't tune vocals either. Maybe it is just a matter of preference.
So, here’s a real world example of why it’s a good idea to quantize your drums… backing tracks for live performances. I will usually make the decision to quantize on a song by song basis but that may change.
I’ve put together a band to play my original songs, most of which came from an album I recorded a few years ago. Most of the songs I edited to the grid. No problem… mute the unneeded tracks and bounce out what’s left for a backing track.
There were a couple of tunes however that were not edited to the grid. The drummer had a nice ebb and flow that I felt worked so I edited everything to the drummer’s performances. The problem is, now the needed backing tracks don’t line up with the click so I have to spend time editing the tracks to match the click.
It’s not a huge pain in the ass but just annoying enough that I wish I did the quantizing in the first place. To be fair, I never thought I would be running a band that would need backing tracks, but a lot has changed in the past few years and here I am.
I was going to say you left out a key factor but you snuck it in there at the end. Quantized drums make everything else sound tighter. It’s usually the case that if I hear something poking out or just feeling a little off in a mix it’s because that beat or note is not to the grid tight enough. Like you said. Get the quantizing down and perfected and then you can start leaving certain things loose if it calls for it. Very good advice that most people just don’t want to hear.
What about baseguitars and other instruments,should they be quantized too?
I think for many styles of music, quantizing is a good idea. But in groovier music styles, the drummer is making choices about where the snare hits in relation to the beat. It could still be quantized but care should be taken and 100% should be avoided. You don't need to see waveforms to hear that a lot of funk grooves have the kick and snare playing on the same beat and there's a bit of a flam. That's intentional and shouldn't be "fixed"- I love all of your videos. Even this one. Keep it up!
Silverstein sounds and feel good edited.
Nick Johnson Gavin Harrison kills the feel of more loose and groovy song. Definitly kills the feel in that song IMO.
It's all contextual purpose
@5:20, that looks like a "what did I tell you" expression. Nice!
Totally agree but with the understanding that all the other instruments need to be recorded after the drums are edited and quantized or else they will be out of groove/time.
Editing and quantizing is beyond important, but I would love to hear your thoughts on tempo mapping and having a grid that represents the drums (even if they’re edited) rather than the tempo your session is set to. I’ve got really compelling results from this in blues/live-off-the-floor rock, which I first heard about from Eric Valentine
Do you have a mixing course or class
Feel is difficult to assess without the entire band playing.
If you want your music to sound quantized, then quantize. As simple as that.
Rebels on the grid, unite!
I have to disagree. I suppose there’s a time and a place when you need to quantize and while it doesn’t always kill the feel it often does. I’m a huge fan and I’m very grateful for your knowledge. It has made me a much better engineer. I can see why occasionally metal might need to be quantized, but I can’t imagine what the police or Led Zeppelin would sound like if you quantized those drums! God bless you and thanks again for what you’re doing.
You should do another video with blind tests and let the audience decide. I think a lot of people will surprise themselves in both directions.
Great idea
I love your videos, but you're only seeing a slice of the picture here. You're correct that the drums need to be tight, in that they repeat the same way each measure within a certain % of accuracy. But in most music, drummers do things like push on the 1 and lay a little behind on the 3, or the 8th or 16th notes push and pull. The key is that that push/pull repeats every measure. And then not every band member usually does that push/ pull the same. For example, if both the drummer and bassist play on top of the beat it may sound rushed, but if the drummer is on top and the bassist lays back a bit, that's where it makes your body move. Depends on what your going for, but I use the "does it make my body move" test. Just go into a DAW and check out all the Groove Quantize options. Those exist for a reason. Put a busy drum groove on several tracks, each with a different groove quantize setting, and zoom in and compare.
I actually learn how to edit drums in reaper (there some specific tools like adjusting the grid by mouseweel and more). This is a breeze when you know how to do it well, but if you saying that it will ruin the "feel", that's only because you upset after 12 hours of editing drums if you don't know how to do it well)))
I find it hard to tell without the rest of the music tbh. I think sometimes you have particular hits that drag or push in response to the rest of the musical content but tbh I reckon cases like this are very much the exception rather than the rule.
The opening fill from Gavin Harrison sounded better before the edit. Not sure if I was hearing things but the snare sound changed also but not in a major way. Would this not also mean that all the instruments that he played to, now have to be adjusted. I'm sure they play around the click as well. That would mean the groove Gavin put to this track would be altered. That said I love the album to which this track is from.
I use Getgood drums and haven't recorded drums for some time. Everything is on grid when programming tracks for my music. Do you have any advice to people who just use programmable drums?
Do you have a tutorial on how to do this?
I think many DAWs have a built in tool for this. It's very easy with those. But manually, it's a pain in the ass.
I recently had a hardcore band fire me for editing the live drums. Sounded great too.
Understandable. If you can't deliver what was desired it makes sense that they'd find someone who will.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 Yep so you should not ALWAYS quantize drums!
I would think that you should give them what they want and it they think it sound terrible, suggest they try it with their drums quantized. Maybe what sounded great sounded "too perfect" when they wanted something that sounded raw to them.
@jordanValeriote or anyone else.... all new to this and wondering what website(s) you use to buy/download a bands full mix projects to import to Protools or other DAW so I can play around with mixes?
I think people confuse obviously fake sounding samples with gridded drums. When every snare hit sounds the same it’s really easy to tell it’s perfectly gridded. The dynamics and slight fluctuations need to be there, even if you are reinforcing with a 1-shot the feel and dynamics are important to keep it from sounding robotic.
Seems most people miss the fact that this type of editing is almost always done in the context a full mix with several instruments doing their own thing. Out of context, yes I agree with those who prefer Gavin's unedited drums. But in the context of a mix, locked in sounds better and it actually gives the other instruments more freedom to be off the grid while still feeling tight.
Drums on the grid sound a little odd solo but better in the mix. I think the misconception on the this is those using programmed virtual drums where every hit is the same velocity. The lack of dynamics is what makes it sound like a drum machine in the mix, not the timing
Gavin is a top 1% player. And honestly he Probly could care less if his performance was altered. The difference wasn't that big. I've been playing drums professionally for 22 years now and unfortunately this is what most labels and productions do as standard procedure. It is what it is. The amount it moves the drums on a good player is a so small live people wouldn't notice a difference. Every single modern production is quantized.