And I’ve told them on any numbers of occasions, “come out of the Control Room, and start listening to what appealed THE MOST when you auditioned your choice in loudspeakers.?
I’ve gotten to where I’ve listened to so many speakers, I’ve personally narrowed things down to staying the H away from live rock, and pop concerts, preferring SMALL jazz ensembles, and Full Symphonic Opuses only. At home it’s full bore Tubed highs & midrange, Transistor class AB bass, and class D subwoofer lows. It’s my 88dB Goldilock’s comfort peak that many of my visitors have consulted me for assistance on the approach for finding their comfort peaks.🌹
We hear The Philadelphia Orchestra from our preferred seats in the 3rd Tier/front row, at Marian Anderson Hall. I hear "soundstage" and section placement and "air" btwn. instrumental sections (but not btwn. individual musicians) of the Philadelphia. I also hear "layering": when the tympanist strikes, he rivets my attention to rear-center or -left, depending on where he is set up for that night's performance. Interestingly, when sitting in the orchestra (Row M) seats, it sounded like the piano notes were coming at us, not from above, but from below the piano. The notes were all there but dropping out the bottom because most orchestra seats are below the piano soundboard.
I have had similar experiences with the Cincinnati Symphony Hall. The characteristics of the orchestral performance changes dramatically depending upon seating position. Interesting enough, I prefer different seats when listening to Opera.
This is what the British call PRaT… Pace, Rhythm and Timing. And I do think there’s something to it. But I’ve also come to realize there’s more than one way to listen and all have their merits and downsides. Take one of my favorite albums of all time… Radiohead’s The Bends. I fell in love with it while doing a lot of driving in my mid to late 20s. At the time to sounded big and lush and full of layers on those crappy car stereos. But I can’t recreate that memory on my home system. The production just isn’t there for that medium. So I prefer to listen to that album in my car… it just seems to fit its production better.
When your feet is tapping & ur head is bopping, that’s PRAT. The british & especially Naim audio, placed alot of emphasis on that in playing recorded music. To Naim, if ur feet is not tapping & head not bopping, then that’s not music.
Some music is so compressed in the recording process that it sounds rather miserable on systems capable of dynamic range. It is a growing concern with some speaker manufacturers.
@@audibleeleganceinc According to the Dynamic Range DB, The Bends average is 9 with a range of 8-10 for the '95 US CD. So yea, that isn't great. But OK Computer has an average of 8 on a range of 7-11 for it's '97 US CD. But that disk sounds way "bigger" and more dynamic... so there's something else at play beyond dynamic range compression. Could is all be psychosomatic? Certainly....
Agree to a decent degree that timing in music is important. However, perfect timing is lifeless. The term for tempo variation is rubato (or rubber time as my teacher called it). Excellent musicians are not always perfectly on the beat, but occasionally anticipate it, occasionally let it pass. That is referred to as "playing the music" as opposed to "playing the notes". Critical difference. You hear that particularly in baroque chamber music when performed by top artists (e.g. Tafelmusik orchestra). Similar with pitch, e.g., trills are played a tad sharp. With respect to audio system timing (PRAT, I assume), I very much doubt that is a factor, assuming a decent recording being played. Human threshold in time domain is ~30 ms, which is an eternity in electronics working at the speed of light. In a car, you are about 2ft from the speakers, and at 1 ms/ft sound propagation, you will not get to 30 ms. Rather consider frequency response of speakers and interaction with interior at the source of listening fatigue. my 2c. Even with TTs, audible frequency changes (3 cents for me with pretty decent relative pitch coming from violin/viola/viola d'amore playing) are at about 0.4% speed variation, while wow/flutter is typically
Killin' again Lou! So many points being made here. Choral music? Yup, my father was a voice major, vocalist, organist with another major in piano. His job as a conductor must be done without a rhythm section and if no pianist, he was the 'metronome'. Next, my standard for all bands and in what regard and esteem I hold them was simply do they replicate their studio recordings. So many big name bands sucked in concert. My favorite recordings - whether vinyl or CD are almost always live performance recordings. Now, I've got one point, or question for you. What are your thoughts about how various orchestra conductors make their own determination on the tempo (I don't believe rhythm is the accurate term)? Example: Bernstein does his slower, more drawn-out interpretation of Mahler while currently Manfred Honeck is having the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra play his interpretation. If you compare the same piece of music between multiple conductors, you'll see their variations in tempo.
Exactly. Seiji Ozawa generally had a very fast tempo and made me nervous as hell. Some people loved his work, for sure, but not I. The performance of Holst Planets really brings that out.
@@audibleeleganceinc Lou, how do you mean "nervous"? Are you just reflecting on it not suiting your taste hence, less enjoyable? Or do you mean something extreme, like how flickering fluorescent lights affects my eyes, making me feel jittery.
Well, they often use terms that are not even found in music classes. Thus, the terms are poorly defined, refer to other senses (often visual), and sometimes are mere puffery.
@keithkohley9855 I agree! One that's a pet peeve of mine is "soundstage". It's simply delusional. Go see a good band live. Listen carefully to the sound. There's no "soundstage", unless maybe you're in the very front rows and you're hearing their amps. Otherwise, that sound is going to the soundboard and being played from their PA system. It's not in stereo and if you think that the lead guitarist, who might be far to the right of the stage - and that's where the guitar leads are coming from, that's just your own neurology making perception of the sound as determined by your eyes. In reality, that band is playing in monaural. When we listen for "soundstage" on our systems yes, it does exist. However, that's the creation of the sound engineer and how they mix the recording.
@@zizendorf And to your point, we we recently attended a performance of an excellent Steely Dan cover band named Steely Dane, appearing at the downtown Rockford, IL, Theatre, seating capacity of about 800. And, as I was thinking about some of Lou's video's, I smiled as I closed my eyes during the gig, and gosh darn that guitarist standing on my hard left (or any of the other positioned musician's) were not projecting their notes from any discernible position. But boy they played in tune and in time and the concert experience was great.
@@keithkohley9855 Yes, exactly! I just saw The Jerry Douglas band (all instrumentalists play as what I'd describe to be virtuoso level). The concert was in a 290 seat old-style theater with great acoustics. Just like you said, close your eyes and there is a "width to the soundstage". It's just about the width of the stage! Of course there's some reverberation in the hall and so that's including reflections (in this case, dampened nicely by padded foamed 'Fresco's" on the walls, absorption from a full house and then some ceiling reverb. Bottom line, there's no "soundstage" with placement of instruments. Now the orchestra live? That's a different sound for sure!
Most common issue in HiFi is when you add subwoofers and don´t know what you are doing, my guess... That could easily cause time/phase issues. I really don´t get the point as you mostly talk about getting the timing correct among musicians in a live performance. What has this to do in your system at home?! The room itself will probably create most issues, not the electronics... What am I missing? Cheers!
You should consider watching my other videos where I do exactly get into the problems with adding a subwoofer. Take a look into the catalog of 190 other videos. Yes, the room can be a challenge but the goal is not to have paid to put a wedding reception band in your home.
Well, I certainly am not a fan of drum machines but they are, in the total music available, a mere fraction of music available. A good example is what happens when people add subwoofers to a system. Rarely are they in time when music is played.
@@audibleeleganceinc You just gave me another bit of information to validate my disdain for sub-woofers (other than for movie soundtracks). But that's not my interest here.
@@CarlVanDoren61 Subwoofers and Magnepans are definitely a trick. Wendell Diller actually designed and presented a Magnepan woofer that could keep up with Martin Logans. Apparently, it went nowhere.
And I’ve told them on any numbers of occasions, “come out of the Control Room, and start listening to what appealed THE MOST when you auditioned your choice in loudspeakers.?
No more noisy Technical Analysis!
The most appealing speaker’s rendering the most comfortable peaks is where I always tell them I now live.🌹
I’ve gotten to where I’ve listened to so many speakers, I’ve personally narrowed things down to staying the H away from live rock, and pop concerts, preferring SMALL jazz ensembles, and Full Symphonic Opuses only. At home it’s full bore Tubed highs & midrange, Transistor class AB bass, and class D subwoofer lows. It’s my 88dB Goldilock’s comfort peak that many of my visitors have consulted me for assistance on the approach for finding their comfort peaks.🌹
We hear The Philadelphia Orchestra from our preferred seats in the 3rd Tier/front row, at Marian Anderson Hall. I hear "soundstage" and section placement and "air" btwn. instrumental sections (but not btwn. individual musicians) of the Philadelphia. I also hear "layering": when the tympanist strikes, he rivets my attention to rear-center or -left, depending on where he is set up for that night's performance.
Interestingly, when sitting in the orchestra (Row M) seats, it sounded like the piano notes were coming at us, not from above, but from below the piano. The notes were all there but dropping out the bottom because most orchestra seats are below the piano soundboard.
I have had similar experiences with the Cincinnati Symphony Hall. The characteristics of the orchestral performance changes dramatically depending upon seating position. Interesting enough, I prefer different seats when listening to Opera.
This is what the British call PRaT… Pace, Rhythm and Timing. And I do think there’s something to it.
But I’ve also come to realize there’s more than one way to listen and all have their merits and downsides.
Take one of my favorite albums of all time… Radiohead’s The Bends. I fell in love with it while doing a lot of driving in my mid to late 20s. At the time to sounded big and lush and full of layers on those crappy car stereos. But I can’t recreate that memory on my home system. The production just isn’t there for that medium. So I prefer to listen to that album in my car… it just seems to fit its production better.
When your feet is tapping & ur head is bopping, that’s PRAT. The british & especially Naim audio, placed alot of emphasis on that in playing recorded music. To Naim, if ur feet is not tapping & head not bopping, then that’s not music.
Some music is so compressed in the recording process that it sounds rather miserable on systems capable of dynamic range. It is a growing concern with some speaker manufacturers.
@@audibleeleganceinc According to the Dynamic Range DB, The Bends average is 9 with a range of 8-10 for the '95 US CD. So yea, that isn't great. But OK Computer has an average of 8 on a range of 7-11 for it's '97 US CD. But that disk sounds way "bigger" and more dynamic... so there's something else at play beyond dynamic range compression. Could is all be psychosomatic? Certainly....
@@davidtraube7921 I honestly don't know without experiencing it. I've noticed too that some things sound better headphones. So, you are not nuts.
Agree to a decent degree that timing in music is important. However, perfect timing is lifeless. The term for tempo variation is rubato (or rubber time as my teacher called it). Excellent musicians are not always perfectly on the beat, but occasionally anticipate it, occasionally let it pass. That is referred to as "playing the music" as opposed to "playing the notes". Critical difference. You hear that particularly in baroque chamber music when performed by top artists (e.g. Tafelmusik orchestra). Similar with pitch, e.g., trills are played a tad sharp.
With respect to audio system timing (PRAT, I assume), I very much doubt that is a factor, assuming a decent recording being played. Human threshold in time domain is ~30 ms, which is an eternity in electronics working at the speed of light. In a car, you are about 2ft from the speakers, and at 1 ms/ft sound propagation, you will not get to 30 ms. Rather consider frequency response of speakers and interaction with interior at the source of listening fatigue. my 2c. Even with TTs, audible frequency changes (3 cents for me with pretty decent relative pitch coming from violin/viola/viola d'amore playing) are at about 0.4% speed variation, while wow/flutter is typically
What are those panel speakers in the background?
Those are not panel speakers. Behind the Goldenear T66 speakers are ASC tube traps.
Killin' again Lou! So many points being made here. Choral music? Yup, my father was a voice major, vocalist, organist with another major in piano. His job as a conductor must be done without a rhythm section and if no pianist, he was the 'metronome'. Next, my standard for all bands and in what regard and esteem I hold them was simply do they replicate their studio recordings. So many big name bands sucked in concert. My favorite recordings - whether vinyl or CD are almost always live performance recordings. Now, I've got one point, or question for you. What are your thoughts about how various orchestra conductors make their own determination on the tempo (I don't believe rhythm is the accurate term)? Example: Bernstein does his slower, more drawn-out interpretation of Mahler while currently Manfred Honeck is having the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra play his interpretation. If you compare the same piece of music between multiple conductors, you'll see their variations in tempo.
Exactly. Seiji Ozawa generally had a very fast tempo and made me nervous as hell. Some people loved his work, for sure, but not I. The performance of Holst Planets really brings that out.
@@audibleeleganceinc Lou, how do you mean "nervous"? Are you just reflecting on it not suiting your taste hence, less enjoyable? Or do you mean something extreme, like how flickering fluorescent lights affects my eyes, making me feel jittery.
@@zizendorf exactly, that sort of feeling.
@@audibleeleganceinc Gotcha! Thanks
I wish the industry would lose the audio jargon and use these points to design and evaluate equipment.
Well, they often use terms that are not even found in music classes. Thus, the terms are poorly defined, refer to other senses (often visual), and sometimes are mere puffery.
@keithkohley9855 I agree! One that's a pet peeve of mine is "soundstage". It's simply delusional. Go see a good band live. Listen carefully to the sound. There's no "soundstage", unless maybe you're in the very front rows and you're hearing their amps. Otherwise, that sound is going to the soundboard and being played from their PA system. It's not in stereo and if you think that the lead guitarist, who might be far to the right of the stage - and that's where the guitar leads are coming from, that's just your own neurology making perception of the sound as determined by your eyes. In reality, that band is playing in monaural. When we listen for "soundstage" on our systems yes, it does exist. However, that's the creation of the sound engineer and how they mix the recording.
@@zizendorf And to your point, we we recently attended a performance of an excellent Steely Dan cover band named Steely Dane, appearing at the downtown Rockford, IL, Theatre, seating capacity of about 800. And, as I was thinking about some of Lou's video's, I smiled as I closed my eyes during the gig, and gosh darn that guitarist standing on my hard left (or any of the other positioned musician's) were not projecting their notes from any discernible position. But boy they played in tune and in time and the concert experience was great.
@@keithkohley9855 Yes, exactly! I just saw The Jerry Douglas band (all instrumentalists play as what I'd describe to be virtuoso level). The concert was in a 290 seat old-style theater with great acoustics. Just like you said, close your eyes and there is a "width to the soundstage". It's just about the width of the stage! Of course there's some reverberation in the hall and so that's including reflections (in this case, dampened nicely by padded foamed 'Fresco's" on the walls, absorption from a full house and then some ceiling reverb. Bottom line, there's no "soundstage" with placement of instruments. Now the orchestra live? That's a different sound for sure!
Most common issue in HiFi is when you add subwoofers and don´t know what you are doing, my guess... That could easily cause time/phase issues. I really don´t get the point as you mostly talk about getting the timing correct among musicians in a live performance. What has this to do in your system at home?! The room itself will probably create most issues, not the electronics... What am I missing? Cheers!
You should consider watching my other videos where I do exactly get into the problems with adding a subwoofer. Take a look into the catalog of 190 other videos. Yes, the room can be a challenge but the goal is not to have paid to put a wedding reception band in your home.
Stop listening upon hearing a drum machine 🥁 Constant tap tap is unbearable 😮
Well, I certainly am not a fan of drum machines but they are, in the total music available, a mere fraction of music available. A good example is what happens when people add subwoofers to a system. Rarely are they in time when music is played.
@@audibleeleganceinc You just gave me another bit of information to validate my disdain for sub-woofers (other than for movie soundtracks). But that's not my interest here.
Ran anemic 20.7s couple years
Knew it wa going to be expensive
Proper crossover is key & fast subs @zizendorf
@@CarlVanDoren61 Subwoofers and Magnepans are definitely a trick. Wendell Diller actually designed and presented a Magnepan woofer that could keep up with Martin Logans. Apparently, it went nowhere.