This is such a hot auction, everyone is talking about it. This is going to have a big impact and it will be interesting to see where it ends and if the buyer pays. Personally it’s not a card I would be interested in at this price. You can get a “real one” for that price
Even if the "buyer" pays there is no way this is not being shill bidding, I am looking right now a Mox Pearl Unlimited MP that looks almost Mint on the front and is just 3100 euros, the price on this auction makes no sense whatsoever. Just to clarify I understand these cards have value for collectors but anything equal or beyond CE/IE is ridiculous
@@wankssy it’s a 9.5 quad. That is a completely different ballpark compared to a raw ungraded card in played condition. I know it seems crazy but it’s a real factor. This is the first one and when you have something this spicy and it’s a 9.5 quad I have no doubt there are a lot of people who really want this card
This isn't regular MTG player territory. This is collectible real money territory. The territory lots of MTG players are too broke to hang around so they talk bad about it. I can't wait for this product to release. Black Lotus at $5,000 after everything settles is my prediction.
@@gemmintmtg4267 it’s a PROXY card. Nothing about it is real. You can not do a single thing with it. I don’t care how mint it is, the cards value is only based on FOMO.
Excellent analogy. I worked at McDonald's during that time. Even then I wondered why people were so excited. We had boxes upon boxes of them. No scarcity at all. Yet lines were wrapped around the building.
I feel like the market for 30th Edition power is just gonna be pure collectors/speculators driving prices up for each other and shuffling money and the same pool of cards around until they realize they are the only ones participating in the market and the cards no longer sell and lose 99% of their "value".
The thing is I am one of those collectors. I buy power. I buy anything old. There is no way in hell I will ever own one of these unless they drop to the $50 range and then just as a novelty. I don't really care what happens to prices moving forward. I am fine going down with my cards if ABU goes to 0. I love them. This stuff is just crap honestly. I don't even care about the reprinting part of it. I just despise what the packs represent. Essentially taking the fun out of it all.
@@NOLA-vv3sz I this past Friday bought a reserved time twister that I’ve been on the fence about to shame people that get these proxies I think you should do the same, “here’s my real one”
@@thecoinjar8899 lmao, as a modern magic player who hasnt been into it for a decade, me and most other people in my boat dont give a rat's ass. You show up with a 30th anniversary black lotus? Cool You show up with an old black lotus? Cool People arent all of a sudden gonna cream their pants and kiss your feet over a card that's extra old lmao. Theres so much circle jerking in this community it makes pornhub pale in comparison. I understand that it genuinely is something that's gonna be hard to get used to for older players, but alot of newer players dont actually care about your older cards. That's a huge mieconception older players seem to have.
Shares of Hasbro were on track for their worst day since 2020 on Monday, following a double downgrade from Bank of America. Analyst Jason Haas lowered his rating for the stock from Buy to Underperform and slashed his price target to $42 from $73. At the heart of Haas’s downgrade is how the company is handling one of its most popular games-”Magic: The Gathering.”
@@rimrick665 they are both real lmao, both are official printings. Just because one isnt playable means little to people collecting variations. cope more about how you paid 3k for a card that only is legal in a dead format where people have been using ICE cards for years
The sad part is not even WotC most is the same community whales doing these bids for profit they lost thousands of dollars investing in this garbage and need to recover really bad
@@JakeandJoelareMagic Have you ever watched the Karl Jobst UA-cam channel? In particular his hour long videos that exposed Heritage Auctions and how they inflated a graded copy of Mario Brothers to over $1,000,000. If not, please do... the work Karl put into researching it and the dirt dirt dirty dirt he uncovered was next level. [ Your analysis of this situation makes me feel like you have seen it already :) ]
@@JakeandJoelareMagic This price is clearly overinflated. The product is on sale which means there should be a hard maximum for the value of cards in the set based on the cost of buying the boosters. If the Power 9 have a base value of $3k each, assume black Lotus and maybe AR are worth more. then you have maybe $30-35k of value just from those. You could buy, 30-35 boxes, 120-140 packs for that. I believe that is enough that you will get more rares than there are in the set, so on average for the same cost you would get all the power 9 plus a ton of duals and other decent rares. As such the $3k price is clearly overpaying for something that you could get for less just by buying the boosters. Maybe it goes up there when the thing is out of print and no longer available, but until then the value should be limited by the retail price.
FYI, the auction didn't end well for kidicarus. The high-roller sellers backed out, and he decided not to relist. Much has been debated around this, most notably in the mtgfinance reddit, where kidicarus posted about the listing and his having to ban two troll bidders.
Weird how if you actually check eBay there are two sold listings with bids for $674.77 and $598. That’s even in the past two days. There have been over 14 sold in less than 30 days. Why bullshit?
@@patmacrotch5611 I posted this comment with 2 minutes remaining in the auction and then the listing ended with 3 bids at 598. I'm not bullshitting lol
@@v3ck1n OK, you jumped the gun. But even then, had that one listing ended like you said, you still have tons of sales over the past month. I just believe its a bit disingenuous given the narrative you were trying to portray. P.S. 2 minutes on an auction is not "ended". Most auctions get their most important bids in the last few seconds.
Someone needs to ask evanpthomas how much that timetwister sold for. Initial asking price $1,299.99, but best offer accepted for an undisclosed amount.
One sale does not make a market. All new releases have sky high sales before the actual product hits the market. You are absolutely right, inflated prices.
Those old cards are, literally, artifacts of history. There will never be more of THOSE cards again and the older they get, the more rare they will be. These proxies are not comparable in any form or fashion. It’s like having a reproduction of a piece of art on your wall rather than the original.
No one's saying they are comparable. The proxies are rare in their own right and have their own intrinsic value which is derived in part of the real cards of which they are a proxy.
@@dougb4835 when people are pricing the proxies where they are on these auctions, yes, they are trying to make that comparison. Quite frankly, I’d rather that they just rip the bandaid off and eliminate the Reserve List rather than finding creative ways to sidestep it.
There is a huge distinction between the CE and ICE cards and these new 30th cards. It may seem small but it is not. The CE/ice cards were pre reserved list and were not reprints if the reserved list. There was a separate and apart promise never to reprint the CE/ice cards. That distinction is kind of everything.
Don't forget, every CE and ICE card now is about 29 years old. The corners on those things are delicate and a lot have been destroyed or corner clipped in the past decades. And even with all that, the prices for most pieces of power in good condition are under 1k.
& the way they're pushing the products, I'm sure they've already printed a surplus of these packs that I don't think are going to sell well and when they don't, I could see the possibility of them throwing these into another collector booster that's overpriced to push product.
I recently had about 1100 proxies made to put in my commander decks. Things that are staples that I refuse to buy 6 or more copies of. Cost came out to around $0.24 per card. Thats what these cards are actually worth.
@@Drysart Right? The only use for these is kitchen table mtg; and if you are playing sweaty competitive mtg at a kitchen table with proxies, you have made a wrong turn somewhere in your life.
This is when the community can actually leave the whales holding the bag and feeling the loss like the average player does. Even if its a tiny pinch to them- its still gonna leave a mark.
There is a reason that they gave 1000 dollar pack to people that paid 750 for magicfest. This is the reason right here. To get some power out and onto ebay.
One other thing, even if this is a real price, there's still a very significant chance you would open $20,000 of 30th packs and not pull enough power 9 to break even.
it absolutely was won in a pack war. She told me the whole story while we were hanging out the following week. Those two have the most insane luck in pack wars.
The wonderful thing is, if these see widespread play, the rest of us can buy cheaper proxies and use them without worry. At that point the entire collector market becomes a joke and collapses.
I own a full set of Unl Power 9 and CE Power 9. Took me 25 years to do it. I really don’t care about what the price of any of them does longterm. What I care about is the fact that the Power 9 are less cool/mysterious/iconic as a result of printing them in 2022.
I would argue the exact opposite. They printed PROXIES. That can tarnish the CE (and IE) cards, technically they are proxies aswell. BUT, the Unl, Beta or Alpha power 9 will be praised even more.Because they are not proxies, they are the real deal. And let's be honest, the old frame is still the best frame.
@@jorgenorberto293 funny enough, the CE/ICE got 'cooler' in my eyes due to this printing of 30th AE. - I appreciate them more - 30 year old cardboard is 30 year old cardboard
Keep in mind we're in the era of NFT being a thing and for all we know someone internally might have posted this and is going to place the highest bid to "set the price" of these cards
NFT's *were* a thing. I think that market collapsed months ago for the same reason sham 30th proxies will eventually tumble: the hype can't go long term.
I do think the CE price comparison is useful as a cap. I doubt the 30th prices will match CE, but I am absolutely confident they will not exceed CE prices.
I was thinking about this the other day. These proxies should be worth 20% of the unlimited version of real thing and about 10%-15% below the Collector Edition versions. Being bid up to the value of the Unlimited Version is ridiculous.
@@thisiswes666 Looking at the price trends of how the different versions of the power 9 tend to move in peaks and troughs, it seems like these are the prices the market will accept. Also taking into account market sentiment towards this product, the collectors edition will always hold a premium to these. It's complete speculation but it's something that makes sense to me and is a price range that seems to fit where the market will settle after the hype/anger dies down.
@@SHADOWCLOUDGAMING I'd say this is a different product with similarities yes but ultimately unique and I would not apply histroic trend analysis. I would instead look at near term volatility and velocity to make forecasts
I haven't looked at the bid history obviously, but it could be something like what happened to graphics card scalpers where their posts were getting overbid by accounts that wouldn't pay
I can literally go on Cardmarket in Germany/Europe and buy a Mox Pearl from Unlimited for 4000€, how the f**k will that price of this proxy ever be legitimate. 100% agree with you! This is so crazy stupid.
As someone who once owned an international collectors set. Bought in 94 for $45.00 and sold in 98 for $270.00 and I thought it was a great profit. 93 94 players were not big on the product when it was released. I only bought it because of the power, my play group didn't care about proxies. But I never opened it because we started playing at a game store and other players told us that we were not allowed to play proxies. I feel you are correct that I this is an inflated money grab that is targeted to commander players looking for the duels. And to take advantage of the newer collectors who don't understand what real power is about.
Not sure if it was said, but they had a CGC booth at Magic 30 that was taking submissions. So there might have been a deal going on or expedited delivery feature
I hate the fact that WotC knew there's no way a non-tournament legal Proxy would ever have a high price ceiling, without artificially creating scarcity by putting them in randomized, over-priced booster packs; which are of reach for the majority of casual players/collectors.
If you really believe it's shill bidding, then report it. It will eventually be investigated, even weeks after the auction ends. If eBay discovers that there is actual shill bidding, the transaction will be reversed and the account (and persons behind it) will be banned. Actual shill bidding is individuals who are known to each other bidding up their auctions. There are robust tools for detecting this. Once it's reported, even if the auction completes, doesn't mean eBay won't reverse it later. If it's investigated and isn't ended or reversed, it's probably not shill bidding.
As you are unpacking the bidding on an auction, don't forget that timestamps MATTER. If user A opens the bidding, and has a max bid higher than the opening amount, their bid will carry the initial bid date. EG: user a bid $100, but the item starts at $50. then someone else bids $75, the first bidder will have a higher bid listed (for the minimum increment above the second bidder) but timestamped when they placed it. You can see that someone had some FOMO on this at the very least, if not shill bidding.
What doesn't make sense about the Collector's/International Edition's is that each card has the SAME rarity. They were printed as a set. So for anything other than Flex purposes, why does any one of those cards cost more than another? The Black Lotus and Forest have the same print run, and they are both just proxies.
Supply and demand, more people want a CE Black Lotus than a CE Forest. Even being proxies, a 30 year old piece of cardboard has some value. There are even fan made proxies that carry decent value too, because they are well known/nostalgic for some collectors.
As I've said before, selling my duals and other expensive reserved list. Commander is a proxy format to me at this point so there's no point in keeping them anymore. Prices may rebound but the path they're headed on I'd say prices are going to get worse before they get better.
As in all secondary MTG product, the value of a card is as per the community. If enough of the community thinks the official proxy Mox pearl is going to be worth 3 grand, its worth 3 grand Its the same as alpha power 9 , if enough of the community think a piece of cupboard from 1992 is worth 10 grand, its worth 10 grand to them
I love the huge banner "Not Financial Advice" If you're silly enough to look at this video and then bid on this thing you deserve what happens to you. Kudos on the video y'all. I'm a big fan!
Great assessment. Apples and Oranges comparing 1990s collector editions and 2022 money-grab proxies. With such blatant disregard for the game, at what point do people just take a break that ends up being a tidal wave of players exiting the game? The initial speculative frenzy is always way higher than history ends up having cards actually valued at. But the bigger picture and question is, at what point do people just sigh and walk away?
3:35 the proxy quality is 9.5 for centering and all, meanwhile the pre-release brother's war I've had all had a slim top and huge bottom making centering super uneven, it's 2022 I wish all cards had great centering, not just premium products 😭
I would have bought a whole collector set for $1000 as a proxy alpha set for cube. I believe many would have also and the hate wouldn't have been as bad. It's the $250 lottery ticket that pissed people off.
The more I look at the current state of MAgic, the more glad I am that I only play cube with friends and we have no problem with using proxies. Although I play quite a lot, I haven't given Hasbro a single cent for years.
Once the set gets released you'll see a flooding of proxy power 9 on Ebay like never before. People will quickly realize that there is nothing special on this newly printed set and will start holding back on buying at anywhere near the current hyped prices.
looks like the auction ended, it sold at $3050.00... shipping was $6.00. Imagine spending that much on a fake card but putting minimal funds into the shipping of it...
Im still convinced the bid on that mox are fake and a pretty transparent scheme to anchor the price of thos fake cards. I refuse to believe anyone would spend that money on these things.
Those grading institutions are all scams. I remember the graded Sonic 1 copy that sold for so high that the main developer asked if that was a scam. If Wizards is behind this shit, it's just another instance of garbage conduct from them. But who else could shill for that?
Get rid of the reserved list and reprint everything to oblivion Let people play with the cards rather than letting some few people hold everything fun.
it wont even kill the value, charizard has been reprinted to oblivion yet the 1st edition ones are worth more than almost any tcg/ccg card besides Lotus. Once people get over the shock of the reprint, the alpha/beta power 9 would go right back up in value
@@yawgmoth6568 And those cards can keep whatever value the collectors want. But for the people who want to play the game... the reason why the cards were created in the first place... then the average person can play with the shitty new reprints. And the collectors can keep their alpha/beta/etc.
I buy replica sneakers from China in the same vein I buy proxies from China as well. I would never buy a fake/proxy for damn near the same price as an authentic card/pair of shoes because they are NOT the same thing. It seems like people in the MTG community are trying to pull a fast one and it's really unfortunate. I don't think these reprints that are NOT playable are worth more than 5-10 $
So let’s talk about how bids on eBay work: You put in a maximum bid and the system compares your max with the current leader’s max. The system will place the new leader’s bid at just above the maximum threshold the previous leader set so as to prevent sniping an auction over $1 on a $1000+ item.
I‘m glad I have my commander and modern decks that I need and buy in single cards, I‘m not going to spend any money towards it in the near future. Used to get a display on release but I cant keep up and dont want to. It’s ridiculous and an insult to the playerbase.
The one sigh of relief in this printing is the pricing. Having such a high price gives a certain value to them and should soften the blow to the much older Collector’s Edition cards. The real damage might be this new paradigm (shift) of WotC printing Reserved List cards (proxy or not).
Get a foil common for 5 cents, peel the foil off, paste on a picture or draw mox pearl on it. Congrats, you saved the down payment for a new car on your proxy.
This feels similar to trying to get cards in peak pandemic. Like seeing sets that high ridiculously high for no reason. It’s essentially speculators at this point buying and selling lol
The way the price of these should reflect collectors edition prices (if at all) is that prices of collectors edition should come down. Now that we have new official proxies and no doubt more on the way, those two old sets of non-tourney legal cards aren't special anymore. ABU cards should remain separately untouched。 These prices on these new ones are ridiculous, both from wotc (collectors ed. was £50 for the whole set) and from these ebay resellers.
Imagine thinking that auction is nothing more than WOTC employee's driving up the price as a marketing ploy in attempt to save face on their tone-deaf 30 anniversary ordeal.
Curious on what you think the price of the power should (in context, not a matter of whether the product should exist at all/for the price it sold) be? You'd expect the demand distribution to be a bit lop sided, no? 116 (not looking up the modified numbers) rares in Alpha. $29,000 with perfect luck to get them all. If people don't give a crap about ~80% of those... that's 23 cards splitting $29,000 to obtain them... and we know towards which final 9 most of THAT is going to skew.
Again, not saying this is a desirable state of affairs, but if you could pop $50 or $110 cards out of $6 packs because the price of every other card was suppressed due to where demand went... why not $5000 cards out of $250 packs? (btw, odds of pulling JTMS > pulling a Lotus from this)
The supply & demand haven't been tested yet, it doesn't matter if it's $250 a pack if they print more copies of the cards than the market will absorb. All signs point to that market being very small. And like the video pointed out, nothing is stopping them from printing additional non-tournament legal moxes now that we know it isn't "against the spirit of the reserved list". Pack cost to open a fullset is irrelevant. There are many cases where packs are expensive but the best cards you can pull by opening them won't cover the cost. The dark is like $120 a pack and the best card is only $110. I think retro frames in particular are going to be difficult to move because they are even easier than normal to fake, with no security stamp and WotC's inconsistent modern printing standards. If I had to guess where things will land despite the widespread negativity, I think duals will be around 150-300 range, power between 400 and 600, with lotus going somewhere around $1,000. And retro frames offering a modest 1.3-1.5x multiplier. Much lower than that and people will probably just hold onto them rather than selling at a feel bad price. Why not a $5,000 card out of $250 pack? Because the 30 year old functionally identical version of the card is less than that. And there are going to be less of those floating around in good condition than something printed this year.
Great video. Even if this is a legit auction, it's one sale. Are these cards gonna be able to move after the initial hype dies out? Seems very likely that they will have some initial ramped up value due to hype, but people who want these cards are either gonna get them now or never, and people are gonna be sitting on them hoping they go up in price. But since there's no play case for them, don't think they're gonna move around much.
This could potentially raise the original cards to unprecedented new high prices . When you see sports cards from 2021 going for 40 50k then this is very possible. Just my opinion. Magic is very behind on prices pokemon has already gone through this transition . Now it looks to be majics turn whether you like it or not.
Did you know that wizard pulled the 30th edition website off ? It is now under construction because Wall Street Journal exposed that Wizards of the Coast was selling 30th anniversary cards for € 1150 euro or $ 1000 dollars . This is now mainstream news under investors. Also watch the latest video from Rudy (alpha investments) , he also explains it there.
The only way anyone has a chance to make a profit on this is if all the other buyers start opening packs, trying to find that black lotus while you don't open the pack... then, maybe the unopened pack might be worth something... probably to someone doing a video on opening one of theses stupidly expensive packs. Also, selling proxies in packs is just wrong. If they were serious about proxies, then they would sell you a proxy plan: For a small fee, you hand them your card for safe keeping, you get a proxy card that is tourney legal. You can refresh your proxy card for the small fee by turning in your worn one for a fresh one... you can also exchange your proxy for your original.
With 10 years of work experience at ebay this doesn't look like shillbidding - its either misguided "investors"/whales with too much money on their hands - or, and in my opinion more likely, 2-3 people wanting to "crash auctions" to "really show it to dem scalperz!!!" - seen it a lot with the release of new consoles
it'll crash when people open a bunch next month or whenever they receive them. previous collector editions went up because you could splice them onto another backing, trim the edges, and list as beta. sadly more common occurrence than one would expect. Rudy came across that many times and they looked legit to the untrained eye.
Here's the funny part, you said you weren't gonna talk about the Hasbro stocks... Well Bank of America analysts accessed Hasbro today and has slashed the value of the stock from 72 to 43 BECAUSE of all the shit going on with MTG. 15% of Hasbro's profit is MTG, and with so much frustration building and excessive product fatigue the analyst crushed hasbro. They even talked about the 1K anniversary pack thing, citing it as ridiculous!
Would a card with a really low centering score be worth more? Like perfect edges and all but way off center. Coins with misprints for example sell for hundreds if not thousands.
So, CE/ICE are technically not legal for tournament play but we’re allowed for 93/94 non sanctioned tournament play which is when the CE/ICE cards spiked a little bit ago… These new edition “collector” cards aren’t even legal there.. People bidding on this new crap are stupid
The collectors editions had fewer copies than the real print runs and reback scammers are what drove the price of the other sets. They can reprint them all they want in unplayable ways like with the gold backs without breaking the reserve list. The scarcity of legally playable cards is what keeps them from being banned.
Honestly wish they would have just did a new collector's edition set, basically through secret lair, for $3k. yeah you knew they would be able to print them again at anytime but you had a nice set of cards that are as close to official as possible and you can hope they don't do it again for 10 years. But having $250 per pack, it being so randomized and very very unlikely to get anything close to being worth the value, and still have all the issues from the other option? I enjoyed the 30 years of magic secret lair (wish it was print to demand) and I think doing another collectors edition would have been accepted better. They simply chose probably the worst option simply to get some faster whale money when this will turn off so many wanting to get into magic for money.
whatever the market value of these reprints will end up being after the dust settles, it is clear that also the original p9 will take a hit. for 3 reasons: 1) as a fact, it's clear that wotc are going to reprint RL cards again 2) these cards, although not tournament legal, are by all means sanctioned proxies, being issued by wotc themselves, so the majority of mtg players, who are not interested in competitive play, will feel right to play them casually, feeling less motivated to buy the originals.
Yes, there is definitely market manipulation going on here. So shady. Thanks for pointing that out so folks hopefully don’t overpay 100x percent for this lame product.
This is such a hot auction, everyone is talking about it. This is going to have a big impact and it will be interesting to see where it ends and if the buyer pays. Personally it’s not a card I would be interested in at this price. You can get a “real one” for that price
We have certainly hit a turning point.
Even if the "buyer" pays there is no way this is not being shill bidding, I am looking right now a Mox Pearl Unlimited MP that looks almost Mint on the front and is just 3100 euros, the price on this auction makes no sense whatsoever. Just to clarify I understand these cards have value for collectors but anything equal or beyond CE/IE is ridiculous
@@wankssy it’s a 9.5 quad. That is a completely different ballpark compared to a raw ungraded card in played condition. I know it seems crazy but it’s a real factor. This is the first one and when you have something this spicy and it’s a 9.5 quad I have no doubt there are a lot of people who really want this card
This isn't regular MTG player territory. This is collectible real money territory. The territory lots of MTG players are too broke to hang around so they talk bad about it. I can't wait for this product to release. Black Lotus at $5,000 after everything settles is my prediction.
@@gemmintmtg4267 it’s a PROXY card. Nothing about it is real. You can not do a single thing with it. I don’t care how mint it is, the cards value is only based on FOMO.
Serious Beanie Baby energy with this release.
Excellent analogy. I worked at McDonald's during that time. Even then I wondered why people were so excited. We had boxes upon boxes of them. No scarcity at all. Yet lines were wrapped around the building.
Kind of like the whole NFT situation too.
it's almost FAB level
@@greenwave819 To an extent.
The original collectors editions sat on shelves collecting dust until they weren't and i think that was driven by reback scammers.
I feel like the market for 30th Edition power is just gonna be pure collectors/speculators driving prices up for each other and shuffling money and the same pool of cards around until they realize they are the only ones participating in the market and the cards no longer sell and lose 99% of their "value".
The thing is I am one of those collectors. I buy power. I buy anything old. There is no way in hell I will ever own one of these unless they drop to the $50 range and then just as a novelty. I don't really care what happens to prices moving forward. I am fine going down with my cards if ABU goes to 0. I love them. This stuff is just crap honestly. I don't even care about the reprinting part of it. I just despise what the packs represent. Essentially taking the fun out of it all.
@@NOLA-vv3sz I this past Friday bought a reserved time twister that I’ve been on the fence about to shame people that get these proxies I think you should do the same, “here’s my real one”
That's pretty much exactly how all reserved list cards have worked for awhile now
@@thecoinjar8899 lmao, as a modern magic player who hasnt been into it for a decade, me and most other people in my boat dont give a rat's ass. You show up with a 30th anniversary black lotus? Cool
You show up with an old black lotus? Cool
People arent all of a sudden gonna cream their pants and kiss your feet over a card that's extra old lmao.
Theres so much circle jerking in this community it makes pornhub pale in comparison.
I understand that it genuinely is something that's gonna be hard to get used to for older players, but alot of newer players dont actually care about your older cards. That's a huge mieconception older players seem to have.
Just like NFT's XD
Shares of Hasbro were on track for their worst day since 2020 on Monday, following a double downgrade from Bank of America. Analyst Jason Haas lowered his rating for the stock from Buy to Underperform and slashed his price target to $42 from $73. At the heart of Haas’s downgrade is how the company is handling one of its most popular games-”Magic: The Gathering.”
Lmao
This probably means Hasbro and Wotc are cleaning house and getting new management.
Edit: or Hasbro is getting bought out soon
I read that article this morning as well smh
@@dom19945 hopefully this is a legitimate wake up call, and not just a chance for them to readjust their angle on greed lol
my price target for HAS is between $25-$30
I bought an actual Mox Pearl last year for less than $3k... This product is nonsense and fomo rules the day, but not forever...
Not going to be an actual sale done worrying its actually worth way way way less
your HP unlimited pearl has little to do with a graded card that likely has a smaller print run
@@DSR505 A PROXY you mean
@@DSR505 you're right... Ones real and one isn't...
@@rimrick665 they are both real lmao, both are official printings. Just because one isnt playable means little to people collecting variations.
cope more about how you paid 3k for a card that only is legal in a dead format where people have been using ICE cards for years
not impressed by shill bidding by WotC. I wouldn't pay $5 for this card.
The sad part is not even WotC most is the same community whales doing these bids for profit they lost thousands of dollars investing in this garbage and need to recover really bad
Totally agree
@@LebronTCG nah I think you're wrong on that one. I think this is 100% market boosting from wotc to instill false value in their product.
@@BiggousDiccous it’s fuccin Rudy isn’t it!?!
I bet if you had it you’d be selling it for a couple grand
if this price holds it means unlimted beta and alpha are highly underpriced
haha, yeah but this price won't hold.
@@JakeandJoelareMagic Have you ever watched the Karl Jobst UA-cam channel? In particular his hour long videos that exposed Heritage Auctions and how they inflated a graded copy of Mario Brothers to over $1,000,000. If not, please do... the work Karl put into researching it and the dirt dirt dirty dirt he uncovered was next level. [ Your analysis of this situation makes me feel like you have seen it already :) ]
@@casucasueq4479 He's incredible. He's been facing million dollar lawsuits over it
@@JakeandJoelareMagic This price is clearly overinflated. The product is on sale which means there should be a hard maximum for the value of cards in the set based on the cost of buying the boosters. If the Power 9 have a base value of $3k each, assume black Lotus and maybe AR are worth more. then you have maybe $30-35k of value just from those. You could buy, 30-35 boxes, 120-140 packs for that. I believe that is enough that you will get more rares than there are in the set, so on average for the same cost you would get all the power 9 plus a ton of duals and other decent rares.
As such the $3k price is clearly overpaying for something that you could get for less just by buying the boosters. Maybe it goes up there when the thing is out of print and no longer available, but until then the value should be limited by the retail price.
I think it will just mean there are too many stupidly rich people with nothing better to do but buy proxies...
FYI, the auction didn't end well for kidicarus. The high-roller sellers backed out, and he decided not to relist. Much has been debated around this, most notably in the mtgfinance reddit, where kidicarus posted about the listing and his having to ban two troll bidders.
Oh wow, I need to follow up with this. Thanks.
trollbidders are the worst!
People spending all their money for pieces of paper.
Darwin: "Told you so."
A Mox Emerald from Collector's Edition just ended at 600 dollars and zero bids.. the market has spoken
well, emerald is kinda the worst of the bunch... still, these prices are ridiculous.
Weird how if you actually check eBay there are two sold listings with bids for $674.77 and $598. That’s even in the past two days. There have been over 14 sold in less than 30 days. Why bullshit?
@@patmacrotch5611 I posted this comment with 2 minutes remaining in the auction and then the listing ended with 3 bids at 598. I'm not bullshitting lol
@@v3ck1n OK, you jumped the gun. But even then, had that one listing ended like you said, you still have tons of sales over the past month. I just believe its a bit disingenuous given the narrative you were trying to portray.
P.S. 2 minutes on an auction is not "ended". Most auctions get their most important bids in the last few seconds.
Someone needs to ask evanpthomas how much that timetwister sold for. Initial asking price $1,299.99, but best offer accepted for an undisclosed amount.
One sale does not make a market. All new releases have sky high sales before the actual product hits the market. You are absolutely right, inflated prices.
An auction, in the collectable world, with many bids absolutely does make a market. If it was anyone but kid icarus I would be more concerned.
Those old cards are, literally, artifacts of history. There will never be more of THOSE cards again and the older they get, the more rare they will be. These proxies are not comparable in any form or fashion. It’s like having a reproduction of a piece of art on your wall rather than the original.
No one's saying they are comparable. The proxies are rare in their own right and have their own intrinsic value which is derived in part of the real cards of which they are a proxy.
@@dougb4835 when people are pricing the proxies where they are on these auctions, yes, they are trying to make that comparison. Quite frankly, I’d rather that they just rip the bandaid off and eliminate the Reserve List rather than finding creative ways to sidestep it.
There is a huge distinction between the CE and ICE cards and these new 30th cards. It may seem small but it is not. The CE/ice cards were pre reserved list and were not reprints if the reserved list. There was a separate and apart promise never to reprint the CE/ice cards. That distinction is kind of everything.
Agreed.
Don't forget, every CE and ICE card now is about 29 years old. The corners on those things are delicate and a lot have been destroyed or corner clipped in the past decades. And even with all that, the prices for most pieces of power in good condition are under 1k.
& the way they're pushing the products, I'm sure they've already printed a surplus of these packs that I don't think are going to sell well and when they don't, I could see the possibility of them throwing these into another collector booster that's overpriced to push product.
I recently had about 1100 proxies made to put in my commander decks. Things that are staples that I refuse to buy 6 or more copies of. Cost came out to around $0.24 per card. Thats what these cards are actually worth.
Less than that because Mox Pearl isn't even legal for Commander; and that's the one format where people tend to tolerate proxies!
@@Drysart Right? The only use for these is kitchen table mtg; and if you are playing sweaty competitive mtg at a kitchen table with proxies, you have made a wrong turn somewhere in your life.
Tbh I’m interested to know where you bought such cheap proxies… asking for a friend ! ^^
The "authenticity guarantee" by eBay on these made me lol.
Authentic proxies
It’s authentically delicious!
This man is doing the Lord's work
I am here for us all.
@@JakeandJoelareMagic is the lord a Magic player? LOL
@@kerolokerokerolo yeah, he's thinking about stepping away from the game for a little while though
but i don't understand. So now are you suppose to use proxies for your proxies for your real cards?
This is when the community can actually leave the whales holding the bag and feeling the loss like the average player does. Even if its a tiny pinch to them- its still gonna leave a mark.
I know an easy answer to "what should we do..." Go back to a Block format with a focus on Story and Standard play. Then support the LGS stores first.
There is a reason that they gave 1000 dollar pack to people that paid 750 for magicfest.
This is the reason right here. To get some power out and onto ebay.
One other thing, even if this is a real price, there's still a very significant chance you would open $20,000 of 30th packs and not pull enough power 9 to break even.
1. This card was graded on site. That’s why it had such a fast turnaround.
2. Fun fact, it was in the winnings of a pack war.
it absolutely was won in a pack war. She told me the whole story while we were hanging out the following week. Those two have the most insane luck in pack wars.
Thanks for sharing.
WotC already promised they wouldn't do this when they did this.
If they came out and said never again, again, no one will believe them.
I remember when jpegs were going for 6 figures last year, how are they doing now?
I remember how hard the market rejected Mystery Booster singles when they first came out.
This is what I’m afraid of. If the proxy’s end up being close or as much as a real copy, real copies are gonna skyrocket in price
The wonderful thing is, if these see widespread play, the rest of us can buy cheaper proxies and use them without worry. At that point the entire collector market becomes a joke and collapses.
@@jimmysmith2249 Communist Timmy's don't seem to understand that if the collector market collapses, the game collapses.
I offered $2 for a 30th mox jet. They didn't accept the offer. I couldn't go any higher.
I own a full set of Unl Power 9 and CE Power 9. Took me 25 years to do it. I really don’t care about what the price of any of them does longterm. What I care about is the fact that the Power 9 are less cool/mysterious/iconic as a result of printing them in 2022.
Don't worry man...the OG P9 will always be iconic. The text errata, the set symbol and the new frame make the card what it is: A proxy.
I would argue the exact opposite. They printed PROXIES. That can tarnish the CE (and IE) cards, technically they are proxies aswell. BUT, the Unl, Beta or Alpha power 9 will be praised even more.Because they are not proxies, they are the real deal. And let's be honest, the old frame is still the best frame.
@@jorgenorberto293 funny enough, the CE/ICE got 'cooler' in my eyes due to this printing of 30th AE. - I appreciate them more - 30 year old cardboard is 30 year old cardboard
Keep in mind we're in the era of NFT being a thing and for all we know someone internally might have posted this and is going to place the highest bid to "set the price" of these cards
NFT's *were* a thing. I think that market collapsed months ago for the same reason sham 30th proxies will eventually tumble: the hype can't go long term.
I do think the CE price comparison is useful as a cap. I doubt the 30th prices will match CE, but I am absolutely confident they will not exceed CE prices.
I’m glad you went into how this was even graded this quickly.
They are inflating the prices to get their old versions sold before MTG collapses.
Honestly been loving the coverage of all of this
Thanks for watching!
dual lands: 30
moxs: 80
lotus: 250
dual lands: 0.25
moxs: 0.25
lotus: 0.25
@@-pontix1-753 😂
I was thinking about this the other day. These proxies should be worth 20% of the unlimited version of real thing and about 10%-15% below the Collector Edition versions. Being bid up to the value of the Unlimited Version is ridiculous.
Why?
@@thisiswes666 Looking at the price trends of how the different versions of the power 9 tend to move in peaks and troughs, it seems like these are the prices the market will accept. Also taking into account market sentiment towards this product, the collectors edition will always hold a premium to these. It's complete speculation but it's something that makes sense to me and is a price range that seems to fit where the market will settle after the hype/anger dies down.
@@SHADOWCLOUDGAMING I'd say this is a different product with similarities yes but ultimately unique and I would not apply histroic trend analysis. I would instead look at near term volatility and velocity to make forecasts
@@thisiswes666 I don't think looking at post release volatility and sentiment is a good metric to predict future value.
@@thisiswes666 While it is a different product, of course, they are similar as you conceded. Therefore it's the best data to use to predict.
Very Proud of Jake. The Days of Jake's naive FOMO are long gone & buried. Good Analysis man! Thumbs UP guys Keep up the great content!
I appreciate you.
I haven't looked at the bid history obviously, but it could be something like what happened to graphics card scalpers where their posts were getting overbid by accounts that wouldn't pay
thanks for clarifying that the video had started, I was very anxious about that.
I can literally go on Cardmarket in Germany/Europe and buy a Mox Pearl from Unlimited for 4000€, how the f**k will that price of this proxy ever be legitimate. 100% agree with you! This is so crazy stupid.
The way that they got their grading done so fast is, CGC was at Magic 30... I did the same with my MOX Sapphire.
Any reprint of the reserve list in my general area will accidentally have my drink poured on it.
As someone who once owned an international collectors set. Bought in 94 for $45.00 and sold in 98 for $270.00 and I thought it was a great profit. 93 94 players were not big on the product when it was released. I only bought it because of the power, my play group didn't care about proxies. But I never opened it because we started playing at a game store and other players told us that we were not allowed to play proxies. I feel you are correct that I this is an inflated money grab that is targeted to commander players looking for the duels. And to take advantage of the newer collectors who don't understand what real power is about.
Not sure if it was said, but they had a CGC booth at Magic 30 that was taking submissions. So there might have been a deal going on or expedited delivery feature
I hate the fact that WotC knew there's no way a non-tournament legal Proxy would ever have a high price ceiling, without artificially creating scarcity by putting them in randomized, over-priced booster packs; which are of reach for the majority of casual players/collectors.
If you really believe it's shill bidding, then report it. It will eventually be investigated, even weeks after the auction ends. If eBay discovers that there is actual shill bidding, the transaction will be reversed and the account (and persons behind it) will be banned. Actual shill bidding is individuals who are known to each other bidding up their auctions. There are robust tools for detecting this. Once it's reported, even if the auction completes, doesn't mean eBay won't reverse it later. If it's investigated and isn't ended or reversed, it's probably not shill bidding.
They have made a spectacle. We are looking at the cards and talking about them therefore our minds have been taken for a ride on their little boat.
As you are unpacking the bidding on an auction, don't forget that timestamps MATTER. If user A opens the bidding, and has a max bid higher than the opening amount, their bid will carry the initial bid date.
EG: user a bid $100, but the item starts at $50. then someone else bids $75, the first bidder will have a higher bid listed (for the minimum increment above the second bidder) but timestamped when they placed it.
You can see that someone had some FOMO on this at the very least, if not shill bidding.
What doesn't make sense about the Collector's/International Edition's is that each card has the SAME rarity. They were printed as a set.
So for anything other than Flex purposes, why does any one of those cards cost more than another? The Black Lotus and Forest have the same print run, and they are both just proxies.
Supply and demand, more people want a CE Black Lotus than a CE Forest. Even being proxies, a 30 year old piece of cardboard has some value. There are even fan made proxies that carry decent value too, because they are well known/nostalgic for some collectors.
I use to work at EBay I would see price of things skyrocket like this but then the buyer doesn’t pay for it cause it’s not actually worth it.
As a former pro player, I read "not legal in tournament" and I will tear that card to make some saproling tokens in a side event, mox pearl or not.
ABU +Collector stuff were printed with a special ink. Also used a different print method. Where you can see a hex pattern in the card.
As I've said before, selling my duals and other expensive reserved list. Commander is a proxy format to me at this point so there's no point in keeping them anymore. Prices may rebound but the path they're headed on I'd say prices are going to get worse before they get better.
If these packs had been $10 Wotc would have made much more money. I would have actually bought some.
As in all secondary MTG product, the value of a card is as per the community. If enough of the community thinks the official proxy Mox pearl is going to be worth 3 grand, its worth 3 grand
Its the same as alpha power 9 , if enough of the community think a piece of cupboard from 1992 is worth 10 grand, its worth 10 grand to them
Imagine paying that much for literal, actual proxies lmao.
Been selling sports cards and lately they get bid up and then not paid for like this a lot.
I love the huge banner "Not Financial Advice" If you're silly enough to look at this video and then bid on this thing you deserve what happens to you. Kudos on the video y'all. I'm a big fan!
Thanks for the kind words and feedback!
Great assessment. Apples and Oranges comparing 1990s collector editions and 2022 money-grab proxies. With such blatant disregard for the game, at what point do people just take a break that ends up being a tidal wave of players exiting the game? The initial speculative frenzy is always way higher than history ends up having cards actually valued at. But the bigger picture and question is, at what point do people just sigh and walk away?
Many claim it’s insiders padding the bids….
The listing is gone? Can anyone find it in active or sold?
3:35 the proxy quality is 9.5 for centering and all, meanwhile the pre-release brother's war I've had all had a slim top and huge bottom making centering super uneven, it's 2022 I wish all cards had great centering, not just premium products 😭
I would have bought a whole collector set for $1000 as a proxy alpha set for cube. I believe many would have also and the hate wouldn't have been as bad. It's the $250 lottery ticket that pissed people off.
Reminds me of Howard ratner asking his father in law to bid on the uncut opal 😂
The more I look at the current state of MAgic, the more glad I am that I only play cube with friends and we have no problem with using proxies. Although I play quite a lot, I haven't given Hasbro a single cent for years.
Once the set gets released you'll see a flooding of proxy power 9 on Ebay like never before. People will quickly realize that there is nothing special on this newly printed set and will start holding back on buying at anywhere near the current hyped prices.
looks like the auction ended, it sold at $3050.00... shipping was $6.00.
Imagine spending that much on a fake card but putting minimal funds into the shipping of it...
Im still convinced the bid on that mox are fake and a pretty transparent scheme to anchor the price of thos fake cards.
I refuse to believe anyone would spend that money on these things.
I’d put it at 75% that there is at least one shill bidder on that auction
I can't find this Pearl auction on ebay anymore. I wonder if they took it down because it was clearly getting pumped.
Those grading institutions are all scams. I remember the graded Sonic 1 copy that sold for so high that the main developer asked if that was a scam.
If Wizards is behind this shit, it's just another instance of garbage conduct from them. But who else could shill for that?
Get rid of the reserved list and reprint everything to oblivion Let people play with the cards rather than letting some few people hold everything fun.
it wont even kill the value, charizard has been reprinted to oblivion yet the 1st edition ones are worth more than almost any tcg/ccg card besides Lotus. Once people get over the shock of the reprint, the alpha/beta power 9 would go right back up in value
@@yawgmoth6568 And those cards can keep whatever value the collectors want. But for the people who want to play the game... the reason why the cards were created in the first place... then the average person can play with the shitty new reprints. And the collectors can keep their alpha/beta/etc.
I can see Wizards printing serialized proxies and go "Whoops, I did it again..."
I buy replica sneakers from China in the same vein I buy proxies from China as well. I would never buy a fake/proxy for damn near the same price as an authentic card/pair of shoes because they are NOT the same thing. It seems like people in the MTG community are trying to pull a fast one and it's really unfortunate. I don't think these reprints that are NOT playable are worth more than 5-10 $
So let’s talk about how bids on eBay work:
You put in a maximum bid and the system compares your max with the current leader’s max.
The system will place the new leader’s bid at just above the maximum threshold the previous leader set so as to prevent sniping an auction over $1 on a $1000+ item.
Big thanks to the multiple people pointing this out. I still think the price is inflated and that people are likely bidding it up to pump fomo.
I‘m glad I have my commander and modern decks that I need and buy in single cards, I‘m not going to spend any money towards it in the near future. Used to get a display on release but I cant keep up and dont want to. It’s ridiculous and an insult to the playerbase.
The one sigh of relief in this printing is the pricing. Having such a high price gives a certain value to them and should soften the blow to the much older Collector’s Edition cards. The real damage might be this new paradigm (shift) of WotC printing Reserved List cards (proxy or not).
That being said it would have been nice if the set was an exciting celebration of the 30th anniversary but maybe 35th will be better lol
Not only this could happen again, I'm willing to bet a lot of money that this will happen again.
"Pack fresh" is not a condition, cards can be damaged and pack fresh :D
This is my biggest pet peeve about these online sellers.
Get a foil common for 5 cents, peel the foil off, paste on a picture or draw mox pearl on it. Congrats, you saved the down payment for a new car on your proxy.
This feels similar to trying to get cards in peak pandemic. Like seeing sets that high ridiculously high for no reason. It’s essentially speculators at this point buying and selling lol
Kid Icarus confirmed that the bid was cancelled and the only serious buyer rescinded interest afterward. There is no FOMO here.
The way the price of these should reflect collectors edition prices (if at all) is that prices of collectors edition should come down. Now that we have new official proxies and no doubt more on the way, those two old sets of non-tourney legal cards aren't special anymore. ABU cards should remain separately untouched。 These prices on these new ones are ridiculous, both from wotc (collectors ed. was £50 for the whole set) and from these ebay resellers.
Imagine thinking that auction is nothing more than WOTC employee's driving up the price as a marketing ploy in attempt to save face on their tone-deaf 30 anniversary ordeal.
Curious on what you think the price of the power should (in context, not a matter of whether the product should exist at all/for the price it sold) be?
You'd expect the demand distribution to be a bit lop sided, no?
116 (not looking up the modified numbers) rares in Alpha.
$29,000 with perfect luck to get them all.
If people don't give a crap about ~80% of those... that's 23 cards splitting $29,000 to obtain them... and we know towards which final 9 most of THAT is going to skew.
Again, not saying this is a desirable state of affairs, but if you could pop $50 or $110 cards out of $6 packs because the price of every other card was suppressed due to where demand went... why not $5000 cards out of $250 packs? (btw, odds of pulling JTMS > pulling a Lotus from this)
The supply & demand haven't been tested yet, it doesn't matter if it's $250 a pack if they print more copies of the cards than the market will absorb. All signs point to that market being very small. And like the video pointed out, nothing is stopping them from printing additional non-tournament legal moxes now that we know it isn't "against the spirit of the reserved list".
Pack cost to open a fullset is irrelevant. There are many cases where packs are expensive but the best cards you can pull by opening them won't cover the cost. The dark is like $120 a pack and the best card is only $110.
I think retro frames in particular are going to be difficult to move because they are even easier than normal to fake, with no security stamp and WotC's inconsistent modern printing standards. If I had to guess where things will land despite the widespread negativity, I think duals will be around 150-300 range, power between 400 and 600, with lotus going somewhere around $1,000. And retro frames offering a modest 1.3-1.5x multiplier. Much lower than that and people will probably just hold onto them rather than selling at a feel bad price.
Why not a $5,000 card out of $250 pack? Because the 30 year old functionally identical version of the card is less than that. And there are going to be less of those floating around in good condition than something printed this year.
This whole thing is SCARY AF!!!
Great video. Even if this is a legit auction, it's one sale. Are these cards gonna be able to move after the initial hype dies out? Seems very likely that they will have some initial ramped up value due to hype, but people who want these cards are either gonna get them now or never, and people are gonna be sitting on them hoping they go up in price. But since there's no play case for them, don't think they're gonna move around much.
Your analysis is 100%, spot on.
This could potentially raise the original cards to unprecedented new high prices . When you see sports cards from 2021 going for 40 50k then this is very possible. Just my opinion. Magic is very behind on prices pokemon has already gone through this transition . Now it looks to be majics turn whether you like it or not.
Did you know that wizard pulled the 30th edition website off ? It is now under construction because Wall Street Journal exposed that Wizards of the Coast was selling 30th anniversary cards for € 1150 euro or $ 1000 dollars . This is now mainstream news under investors. Also watch the latest video from Rudy (alpha investments) , he also explains it there.
The only way anyone has a chance to make a profit on this is if all the other buyers start opening packs, trying to find that black lotus while you don't open the pack... then, maybe the unopened pack might be worth something... probably to someone doing a video on opening one of theses stupidly expensive packs.
Also, selling proxies in packs is just wrong. If they were serious about proxies, then they would sell you a proxy plan: For a small fee, you hand them your card for safe keeping, you get a proxy card that is tourney legal. You can refresh your proxy card for the small fee by turning in your worn one for a fresh one... you can also exchange your proxy for your original.
With 10 years of work experience at ebay this doesn't look like shillbidding - its either misguided "investors"/whales with too much money on their hands - or, and in my opinion more likely, 2-3 people wanting to "crash auctions" to "really show it to dem scalperz!!!" - seen it a lot with the release of new consoles
it'll crash when people open a bunch next month or whenever they receive them. previous collector editions went up because you could splice them onto another backing, trim the edges, and list as beta. sadly more common occurrence than one would expect. Rudy came across that many times and they looked legit to the untrained eye.
This needed to be said. Thank you
Thank YOU for being here to watch it.
I hope they are shilling the bids, that would be cherry on the top. Good content you guys, just started following!
Thanks for watching and giving the channel a chance.
I hope they get caught. Even better that way.
Here's the funny part, you said you weren't gonna talk about the Hasbro stocks... Well Bank of America analysts accessed Hasbro today and has slashed the value of the stock from 72 to 43 BECAUSE of all the shit going on with MTG. 15% of Hasbro's profit is MTG, and with so much frustration building and excessive product fatigue the analyst crushed hasbro. They even talked about the 1K anniversary pack thing, citing it as ridiculous!
Just saw this, unreal and oddly I’m not surprised.
Welcome to the mid to late 90's sports cards everyone. We still haven't seen hardly anything yet.
Would a card with a really low centering score be worth more? Like perfect edges and all but way off center.
Coins with misprints for example sell for hundreds if not thousands.
So, CE/ICE are technically not legal for tournament play but we’re allowed for 93/94 non sanctioned tournament play which is when the CE/ICE cards spiked a little bit ago… These new edition “collector” cards aren’t even legal there.. People bidding on this new crap are stupid
The collectors editions had fewer copies than the real print runs and reback scammers are what drove the price of the other sets. They can reprint them all they want in unplayable ways like with the gold backs without breaking the reserve list. The scarcity of legally playable cards is what keeps them from being banned.
Honestly wish they would have just did a new collector's edition set, basically through secret lair, for $3k. yeah you knew they would be able to print them again at anytime but you had a nice set of cards that are as close to official as possible and you can hope they don't do it again for 10 years. But having $250 per pack, it being so randomized and very very unlikely to get anything close to being worth the value, and still have all the issues from the other option? I enjoyed the 30 years of magic secret lair (wish it was print to demand) and I think doing another collectors edition would have been accepted better. They simply chose probably the worst option simply to get some faster whale money when this will turn off so many wanting to get into magic for money.
whatever the market value of these reprints will end up being after the dust settles, it is clear that also the original p9 will take a hit. for 3 reasons:
1) as a fact, it's clear that wotc are going to reprint RL cards again
2) these cards, although not tournament legal, are by all means sanctioned proxies, being issued by wotc themselves, so the majority of mtg players, who are not interested in competitive play, will feel right to play them casually, feeling less motivated to buy the originals.
Yes, there is definitely market manipulation going on here. So shady. Thanks for pointing that out so folks hopefully don’t overpay 100x percent for this lame product.