D&D Players, How do you enforce laws in your cities when dealing with high-level parties?
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- How do you enforce laws in your cities when dealing with high-level parties?
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Remind the party that they aren't the only high level adventures in the world...there's now a contract on you.
This is what I established from the beginning by having the party be hired by a high level party to clear out a giant spider nest from the high level party leader's father in law, as the high level party had an emergency quest somewhere else.
Now the PC'S have met this party passingly a couple of times and now are a bit closer in level to them and have friendship & rivalry with them.
So a party that is as strong or stronger than yours and are friends... Having them turn on you because you became criminals...
That risk is keeping the party in line, they now pretty much self police, and solve potential conflicts internally with role-play.
(Proud DM moment)
For me there is a difference between high level (10-15) and very high level (16-20) in high level it is ok if other groups can compete but on very high level it is logic that they can do whatever they want they can defeat god and legendary creatures it is logic a city even a metropolis is no match for them and that even the other adventurers are weak in comparison
@@victordecourval9343 and that is the point where the players become a nuisance to the pantheon and they will bless/anoint other mortals to be their champions.
Well a party of villains could of course seek aid from the lower plains... But then you escalate the campaign to a (proxy) war between the gods themselves... Which is absolutely fine for a party of lvl 17+ as that is the gravitas you'd expect from such individuals let alone a party of them
I like to throw in the old guard. Retired adventures with high level and equipment. They to once saved the world but now they sell fish and try to use time on the sea to wash the blood from thir hands
And full pardon for party member, who brings the rest dead.
“You are very big and strong. Puppy dogs are afraid of you and it’s making them cry.”
Works every time.
Why are you playing with sociopaths?
@@mrosskne I deploy sad puppy dogs to prevent level 20 murder hobos.
I am the psychopath.
TOO FAR
it's great to do the transition from "the guards are trying to apprehend you" to "the guards are trying to buy time for the civilians to evacuate".
Cringe.
Here’s a fun fact:
In the Wild West, a lot of deputies and sometimes even sheriffs were former gunslingers or have committed crimes at some point and were pardoned in exchange for becoming a deputy, this is because most outlaws do crime out of desperation, so when they’re given an offer of becoming a deputy in exchange for a pardon and a well-paying job, they’ll take it, meaning the deputies and sheriffs were skilled gunfighters and the outlaws were usually bandits who didn’t fight much, not to mention gunslingers spent years honing their skills in competitions and the like, meaning a sheriff and 4 deputies against a 10 man group of bandits would often times lose because the lawmen were better trained.
Use this fact in dnd, have the town guards be former adventurers who became guards or even former criminals also offered a pardon, this means that the town guard in your cities are comprised of former criminals who know the tricks criminals use, or skilled adventurers who have experience fighting against magic and trekking into the wilderness to search for the party if they run away.
I... Really like this idea. Given I wouldn't make it a blanket case but having a portion of the guard being former skilled goes gives a reason for higher powered guards and maybe even some genuinely party level enemies
@Caragoner Hell, you can even do better. You want to really make the point that being a murderhobo is a bad thing? Have gods come into play. Gods don't like competition or if on good morality, murderers in general. They can and will send their most lethal to take care of world changing threats. Congrats, now the party has level 30+ arch angels and devils on their way to do their very worst to a party of hard capped level 20s.
You can take the Old West analogy even further. Take Wild Bill Hickok, the most famous gunfighter of them all imo and a legend in his own life. He was a lawman in several towns and whenever he found out that some big name gunfighter was coming into his town, he'd make it a point to confront them and let them know who was running things. If they threatened him, he'd give them a day to leave town. If they didn't, it was on sight from then on.
Mysterious Dave Mather was another gunfighter in a similar position, but more ruthless. Whenever someone threatened him, usually behind his back, he would just track them down and murder them.
“I was an adventurer like you, then I took an arrow to the knee”
*yoink* thaaank you.
but seriously, that's a great idea, and it's logical. I was already thinking of making a sort of Moxxi's underdome and winners get a pardon but it would be more logical for them to be offered one in the employ of the guards. less death, more recruitment within the guard and thus better protection to the local population.
my favorite is.
"Roll initiative. You're about to fight Goku."
Actually had a DBZ DND game set during the reign of Frieza.
Frieza wasn’t too pleased about a group of trouble makers going around looting HIS planets and butchering HIS troops
So the DM sent Ginyu Force to kill them……the players were butchered
@@kainthedragoon8081please tell me the Ginyus defeated them via epic poses
@@kainthedragoon8081that sounds fuckin awesome
It wasn’t even meant to cause a party wipe but instead a wake up call about just how dangerous the Frieza Force is.
They had already offed a couple of Saiyans (set before the planet was destroyed) and looted the planets they conquered.
Anyway what was meant to happen is that due to damage to their attack balls if the party fled the Ginyu Force couldn’t follow.
They attacked and were slowly picked off
@@kainthedragoon8081 how many were there? party members
As a DM i send level 20 PCs (sometimes the old characters of my players) to capture the muderhobos
Oh that’s a FUN idea.
The only thing that can stop the villain players is another group of players out to defeat the BBEGs.
For anyone reading this if you have a serious problem with some players... Flitch the Brownie Rogue is always looking to do a good deed. But he won't leave the players defenseless. Wood works just as good as steel. Right? Cheaper too.
Yup, I normally send in a former PC or a team of them.
A half orc sorcerer (fighter at 1st level) in heavy armour and a great axe, can effortlessly cast *hold person* and roll three crit DMG die. Take a second level on fighter for action surge 😂
@@artyd42elaborate.
do u have a character that swaps their armor with wood?
simple. the villain takes the opportunity to engage in a hearts and minds campaign! He may be evil, and have his own motives but, if he's promising to put down the group of blood thirsty barbarians ravaging the kingdom then people might side with him anyways.. What do they really have to lose? soon the city guard starts to become indistinguishable from the BBEG's henchmen... The pc's might find henchmen and lieutenants handing out fliers, giving food to towns people, etc...
oh that's goooood, I love that so much
So Gortash from BG3
The lawful good(soon to be lawful evil) paladin looking at his blood soaked hands with a look of horrified realization on his face: "Are we the baddies?"
The murderhobo edgelord rouge with 0 actual roleplaying skills: "Always have been."
Why are you playing with sociopaths?
Politics is Business
One of my favourite things that happened in a prior campaign is that the players became so much of a threat to every person they came across that a Coalition of kingdoms, realms, and even monstrous covens joined forces to hunt the party, assembling an army in the thousands. Even the party's allies turned on them as their loyalties were bought or convinced after so much bad blood was spilt between the party and the world. It got so bad that as the threat increased, half of the party turned on the other half, leaving only one alive after a long and brutal fight. When the massive army finally caught up to the lone survivor after that army had suffered considerable losses, the last surviving member, a barbarian named Krixol Padaar, threw down his weapons and surrendered.
The army wanted him executed upon capture but after the army found the corpses of the other three villains, the barbarian was instead given a second chance, a decision made against the sensibilities of everyone present. The elvish queen who led the Coalition, Urirel Sheylonn, who had lost her entire family to the party's rampage, said firmly and calmly to those assembled, "We are not them." Everyone got the message and her decision was made manifest.
Once it was all said and done, half of the table didn't want to play with me anymore and that was understandable.
Actions have consequences and that’s WHY we play TTRPGs.
Unironically, “the hardest choices require the strongest wills”, and that means respecting your players’ choices by holding them to account.
If they didn't want to play anymore after that then it sounds like they wanted a power fantasy more than an rpg.
Imaginary power really goes to some people's heads.
@@jtjames79 This can cut both ways. Many DMs that themselves have power going to their heads, seem to love doing "urban settings" campaigns, where they treat the city as the PC's enemy. Every other merchant is a greedy prick trying to scams the party. Militia are 100% useless and super weak and unable to help even for trivial stuff but when it is about the main villain (always a corrupt noble) then militia is suddenly outright AGAINST the party and suddenly magically becomes super overpowered. All nobles are corrupt and have infinite resources. All friendly NPCs are all useless beggars that always need help for next to zero reward.
Basically, instead of a city adventure where the city is the PCs home base that they will learj to cherish and love to the point of wanting to save it, instead the players start dreaming about killing everybody in that horrible place, or just leave the place forever. So any "murder hoboing" might turn out to be the DM's fault after all.
Dungeons are much more "fair" environment than cities, in that regard. You killed off all the monsters in room 25, well, they're dead now, and USUALLY nobody will come after you afterwards. But kill off all the evil guards from corrupt manor 25, and instead you're now officially criminals for having attacked a noble's domain, killed "official guards on duty", and "stole property", and suddenly you've got an entire city on your ass. This is just not a fun way to play and despite SEVERAL urban campaigns they all turn out SUPER UNFAIR to the players.
Never treat a city as if it was a dungeon full of enemies. In a big city, unless the city is "an evil hellhole" in the first place, there are MORE good guys than bad guys. Otherwise the city couldn't even function properly and would end up looking like a hellhole. So yeah unless the place is "evil rated", if PCs bring any proof of wrongdoings then the good side of the powers that be, is more than enough capable of handling most threats. So have the settlement be of a level-appropriate size to the PC party. Have the village or town be a "safe base" were the PCs can REST SAFELY between adventures. Not a place that is actively against them and thus making sure they will grow to hate.
A few parts for context since people keep asking. At this point of the Coalition forming, the players had killed and looted to the point of genocide levels, with tens of thousands dead. We're talking whole villages and small towns put to the sword just to secure basic food and supplies. If the remaining civilized peoples didn't band together, there was a very real possibility that these players would become too powerful to stop even by the combined arms of the kingdoms and realms that remained. They were a good level 12 when the party learned of the Coalition being formed and they took active steps to stop the forming, going as far as sieging castles and killing noble families, including children and civilians.
It makes the decision to spare Krixol Padaar, now a heinous war criminal and murderer, have much more weight. Three of the players had argued about being slain and that the barbarian should fight and revive them all until the Queen said her line. That was one of the few times I saw actual resignation on the player's faces as I believe they realized just what they had done for the past few months.
I've actually run an evil campaign that turned out to be pretty fun. However, they had to work very hard to keep their murders relatively well hidden so as to not alienate every possible ally.
They had to play it VERY smart.
It essentially turned into a Game Of Thrones themed takeover of the city, one faction at a time.
I really want to finish my world to get some games in to build a history. I also have wanted to run an evil campaign for forever! Our last one ended on a sour note after we just bumbled around pilfering shops while we were already part of a new Church of Myrkul set up by our death cleric from our main campaign. It lost direction quickly (though the characters didn’t go to total waste as they became background NPCs for the BBEG).
I think focusing an evil campaign on Lawful Evil villains and LE mercenaries and/or politicians might be a good change of pace for these types of campaigns!
I have a level system.
1. Sentenced to jail. A formality, but you might not comply.
2. Branded a Wolf's head. Anyone can do anything they want to you and no one will stop them. In addition, a bounty is on your head and specialized bounty hunters are coming to liberate your head from your shoulders, and they've done their homework.
Why are you playing with sociopaths?
@@mrosskne I don't play with sociopaths, my players just live on the chaotic end of the spectrum and enjoy an immersive world.
No, they're sociopaths.
@@mrosskne
Enjoying roleplay as chaotic beings doesn’t make people a sociopath.
Sociopathy is an actual medical condition with quite a few requirements.
@@GodlyDra yeah it does
The same way I handle low level parties. Assuming they leave a witness or let some bystander slip away. Law enforcement is informed. The reaction is completely dependent on where the party is, some areas are about lawless. In my mind that is worst case. The local "war lord" has no, none and less than zero reason to hold back.
In civilized areas where there is law enforcement. Chances are good the object will be the parties capture. But a real full blood, guts and gore, murdering. Special forces are quickly called in if there is any indication of characters being high level.
Why are you playing with sociopaths?
Organised crime does reduce crime rates by being more brutal than any formal police force is capable. Simply apply the principle.
Assuming your campaign doesn’t just end with a party wipe, what happens when they kill all the special forces? Do you call in the super special forces? Then the super duper special forces? If they lose and they don’t die do they have to sit in the dungeon for a play session like it’s Skyrim?
You seem like you really want to bring your players to heel. You’re playing out your own power fantasy instead of letting them play theirs.
Let high level PC’s break laws. Punish them in clever ways that leave them nothing to fight back against but do give them options for adventuring. The kings vault is empty, but why? The magical macguffin was swapped for a fake, but where is the real one?
@@na976 They don't kill the special forces.
@@mrosskne gr8 b8 m8
They’re either with the city , or it becomes a local emergency and they call in a specialist team
I've had it where they got bad enough the warring kingdoms united against them thus peace was restored over their dead bodies.
Call in Max-Tac 😂
Hopely there reason specialist ain't killing bbeg and they are busy with alot minion so only can go if major city danger
@@rhoem1353 yeah because the BBEG is secretly the wizard that has been magic jar’ing the president every time they get get elected , and framing someone else as the villain.
The funny thing about my campaigns is that the BBEG is usually someone who wants to *rule* the world, not destroy it. As a consequence of that, anyone committing terrorism or other heinous acts is going to draw their ire, and it's a lot easier to fight the BBEG if you get prep time for the encounter instead of them or their lieutenants being the ones with prep time and an ambush.
PC: "We're here to stop this tyrant from taking over your nation!"
BBEG: "I'm here to stop you from burning down villages after bar fights"
In my homebrew setting, it depends on where you commit the crime. Murderhobos in the mercantile desert country would have to contend with outright economic warfare from merchant kings. The swampy northlands are run by necromancer oligarchs, so have fun slogging through an inexhaustible flood of low-level undead that like making grapple checks.
And if you're troublesome enough, there's that one epic-level death knight general who loves making examples out of rogue elements. He'll only throw you in the gladiator pits if you're lucky.
Oh that sounds cool af! If a party is only focused on one or two evil elements, forcing them to face more at a time would be a great idea to balance them out!
I tried doing the following:
While they were out on the street one morning, they got to witness a city guard raid. Griffon carried squad cart, magical weapons out of the wazzoo and very, very aggressive. Basically "Here's fantasy SWAT, these guys will knock on your door if you mess up".
Well at least that was the intended result. What actually happened was that one of my players is a law student whose character was a dirty shister (think Saul Goodman) and he went full ambulance chaser mode. Since I'm a happy DM that always goes along with my players outlandish sh*t, I came up with a backstory about how this was two druggies crafting illegal and very unstable magical artifacts (which led to the tactical explosive BoH but that's a different story). And before I knew it, the party was embroiled in a Phoenix Wright subplot to get the two of them off the hook, get their crafting equipment and get rid of them for the sake of their fence who wanted to start working with the group after some light persuasion.
So in the end my attempt to teach them not to mess with the law led to a B&E at the guard station, massive amounts of perjury, two murders and the establishment of an underground illegal artifact trade.To this day I consider that side quest to be an absolute success.
"they called Maxtac, now they're all fucked."
@@Punsmaster2 *MageTac
Well, in my Radiant Citadel Campaign, the actual Citadel's not only got a large number of guards and so on, its ruler is literally an Ancient Brass Dragon named Sholeh, and the entire Citadel is her lair, and she has a very vested interest in keeping things civil. She also has caster levels. Needless to say, while she's not the Lady of Pain, no one really wants to pick a fight with a freaking Ancient Brass Dragon who's in her lair. She can't deal with the issues the players can because she's very limited in how often she can leave the Citadel.
Also ,that's another law enforcement option: if you're doing a Planescape campaign, there's always the option of the Lady of Pain. Just warn the party not to mess with the Lady of Pain.
What the heck is the Lady of Pain?
@@bulldozer6781its a character in the Planescape setting that is stronger than most gods.
She has the habit to instakilling people the DM doesnt like.
Answer: other adventurers. The trope of a retired lvl20 secretly running a bar is a good one to rely on.
Had a party rock up into a city once and they quickly learned the 3 major rules people tend to follow. 2 of them were common sense but the 3rd was simple "Don't fuck with Vinnie's Bar."
They eventually discovered that Vinnie, an older Half Orc, is a retired adventurer as a lvl20 Warlock of an Eldritch Spider God (that one of the players was slowly unknowingly becoming a Warlock of himself) and one the strongest people not just in the city but the country as a whole. One of the players had a habit of testing the limits of the social contract but upon learning that little tibit (and that there are others like Vinnie around the world), he quickly pulled his head in and behaved himself.
yeah when it comes to magic shops and other stores with large amount of valuable items a retired high level adventurer is a good choice for a shop keep....
and as a bartender/inn keep type deal it works on the lines of retired because there wasn't much adventuring beyond stumbling upon something after months of going through old abandoned places and such and even then most of the places dont even pose any challenge or anything so they live through other adventurers stories...
and to be honest they dont even have to be running anything related to the story but just a random citizen cause they decided to settle there and they stepped in because they noticed an adventurer making a ruckus and they know how fast it can potentially escalate with that kind of power... and they dont want to see part of their home town leveled...
you can place all kinds of characters to be there to take care of the PC even some evil ones that have some plans for the city so its in their interest to pacify you so there wont be problems to your plans and all that kind of stuff....
How do you "accidentally" become a warlock with something? You sign pacts and that's how you get your abilities.
Tricking the party is more interesting then "oops ig you're now with a Spider god lmao lmao"
But filling your world with those is _really bad_ for the stakes and/or believability of your campaign. You now can't introduce any major threats because a threat your weaker party can handle would be trivial for any of all these 20th level randos to take out, preventing them from representing a real threat and/or opening up plotholes.
Problem is lvl20 heroes are essentially demi gods. Even a fighter, who won’t do to much bulshit will still swing is colossal battle axe a few times in a second. If such people are just among the strongest in a country, it create a whole different problem
If you tell the players there’s a door, they will open it. If you lock the door they will pick the lock. If the lock is magical they will break down the door. If the door is invulnerable they will tunnel under the fucking wall and on and on forever.
Putting an Uber powerful NPC in your game is like putting a locked door in your dungeon. The players will derail the game trying to break into it even if it’s just the broom closet.
I think this is why I love Legends of Avantris. The players always respect the DM and wouldn’t maliciously try to derail the party, but they’re a chaotic group. So if someone is being especially chaotic, the DM has them roll on the “naughty list,” where they get a random curse. It’s not some game-breaking thing like “50 guards show up” or “a level 20 bounty hunter steps out of the trees”. It’s stuff like “your knees fuse together,” “you can only talk by singing,” or “you become madly in love with the first person you see”. It depends on the players being willing to roleplay these things, and they’re designed to put the PC in a bad or bizarre situation.
"and with my spirit eyes I can see they have the silent threat of. . . G e n g i v i t i s ." The best curse ever.
I find this idea neat but I'm not a huge fan of "Random bad thing happening" because of behavior, in or out of the game. It breaks immersion
@@Caragoner This is mostly used in the Fey Wild campaign they run in which the curses are brought upon by certain fey pacts and exposure to the witch light drug that is important to the plot.
@@Caragoner Yeah, it very much depends on what the game revolves around. My table's campaign is faced as our own serialized show, basically. The story is fleshed out, and characters have their arcs. We joke, and we're silly when we feel like it (like a zombie's three critical misses becoming it actually trying to kiss a player in its undead dreams while feeling awkward of its failure), but the game isn't for laughs. The game's fun is more on thrills, plotting and fighting in interesting situations.
I guess this one works very well for a game that is more about the laughs, the weirdness, and the average self-conscious D&D chaos. There are many people that like this almost...satirical take on D&D. I myself find it enjoyable to watch, but not to play.
Why are you playing with sociopaths?
Here's one option. Next session, declare a one shot alternative perspective. A level 10 group has just been hired to take out a group of near-do-wells. Their description is oddly familiar...
Why yes, that IS quite the accurate description of your normal characters!
I've found building empathy with the NPCs and trying to get the players to care about at least one is a pretty good deterrent. Players are less likely to cause trouble in the same neighborhood where little Jean greeted them with a bright-eyed smile after being gifted a few copper to buy a sweet roll for himself and his friends.
Ok... let me point out the genius of the first guy. He does it the Undertale/Toby Fox way, stripping the game of all the fun mechanics and interactions. Bonus points if he switches to a forsibly slow, monotonous and laconic speech as he describes it. Bloody brilliant.
Also, now that I think about it, another forewarning could be distrust from people with good character judgement or general alignment sensing abilities and deep connection with others like clerics, paladins, druids, monks, royalty, organized crime, tavernkeeps, certain merchants, animals to a degree and skeletons. Let the players be described as ominous, untrustworthy, "looking like troublemakers".
I have never had to deal with criminal players to an extent that needs to be enforced. Might just be that I have a good group and the players are actually trying to give their guild a positive look. Most I've had to do is after one of my players robbed a casino in a very successful solo heist, I had the leader of the thieves' guild, who has rats all over the city that give him information, hold that info over their head to get them to do missions for him that gives him even more blackmail on them, showing them that breaking the law comes with consequences but in a way that gave them a fun heist to do
My mentality is "If you're above the law, it could crumble under your weight." If the player's decide to do whatever they want and ignor laws, sure, guards will go after them. If they start killing guards then more show up, and stronger ones, but they will run out. When the settlement can no longer spare guards to deal with the party, complete anarchy breaks out. People just start robbing and killing whoever because nobody can stop them, some even try stealing from the party because chances are one item from the party's bag is enough to retire.
If the party wants to steal themselves at this point, I tell them that while they were killing good men of the law, all notable buildings were looted and the thieves ran off. This inevitably leads to a complete collapse of the settlement, and the party has one less safe zone.
In my games, I REALLY like to punish stupid decisions my party makes just to emphasize the villain's strength, so the next time they see this settlement, it'll belong to my bad guy, with an army that can defeat them.
This is certainly a good way, I'd also add in spreading the chaos; If there are five settlements in an area that are linked in trade and culture, what do you think is gonna happen if one of those towns fall to chaos? Then another? Then another?
Show how people are effected, and if it gets bad enough you can mention things like the onset of famine, or spreading discontent amongst the populace that spreads out to the rest of the world, bandits and brigands everywhere, the more severe the players actions become.
Most of our games never made it to SUPER high level, though we did have a few that were into the 12-15 range. Most of the time the players were pretty courteous in towns, though, since they understood that just being a murderhobo in a city would get them in trouble in ways beyond "someone called the guards".
In the game world we played in, there were a couple of countries that had all but outlawed magic and magic-users, since they were bordered by this place just referred to as "The Desolation", which was a couple hundred square miles of ruined terrain where some armies had fought in the past and had included some high-level battle-mages, so everything went to hell (quite literally in some cases, as the battle-mages had started summoning devils, demons, and other things to attack the enemy with).
So when one of the characters (the wizard) tried to use charm person to get a good deal on something, and the NPC managed to save, he started screaming about "being bewitched" and the wizard was tossed into a cell. He dimension-doored out, but the other players were now pissed at him because since they were his known associates, they were ALL banned from the city, and would be arrested if they came back in. The rogue (who was a dwarf) was the most mad, because he couldn't even just sneak back in -- the city was almost entirely humans, and a dwarf would stand out a lot, even "in disguise". So he couldn't get the stuff done that he wanted to.
Generally it's understood that just because you're a big fish doesn't mean you're the BIGGEST fish. And all it takes is for someone to put out a contract on your life and even a "low level" assassin might gank you in your sleep some night. You can't be on 24/7 alert forever, after all.
Problem is, a low-level assassin cannot do enough damage to a high level player to kill, even if the player is sleeping. And damage received while sleeping either wakes up the player or gives them the opportunity to roll a saving throw if it's magical sleep.
@@bulldozer6781
If you go strictly by "the character is a bag of HP and you have to deplete that to kill them", then yes. But by that token, a high-level fighter could literally have an executioner hitting them in the neck with an axe 15-20 times before they'd even feel threatened, which makes zero sense.
I haven't played 5th ed, so I don't know if the old coup de grace rules still exist, but it used to be that if you caught an enemy in a situation where they're helpless (tied up, held, unconscious, sleeping, etc) you could kill them with a single full-round action.
That's the rule we tended to use in all our games, since it prevented the "I'm just a big bag of hp, suck it low-levels" mentality from sticking. HP was more of a measure of how well you can avoid damage, not just soak punishment. So if you're helpless, your HP doesn't really factor into it, since you're not avoiding anything.
@@wumpusrat It makes complete sense. High level dnd players are like powerful wandering cultivator in cultivation stories. They are literally at the level of PLANAR beings and a going toe-to-to with some of the strongest creatures in existence. If anything, your stance is what doesn’t make sense, saying that the party of demigods needs to fear getting stabbed by some dude with a knife is laughable
Step 1: before the campaign discuss expectations for the campaign and ensure your players are on the same page as you with regard to evil actions vs being heroes. Step 2: on day 1 have your end-game NPCs make appearances. If there are multiple CR 20+ NPCs expected to be taking part in the campaign climax, have them show up when the PCs are level 1. Make it clear how the world handles the existence of them, same with the mid-campaign CR 10-14 NPCs and threats. The PCs aren't the first beings in the world to reach those power levels. Set expectations early. Only then when the Players have agreed to the social contract for the game but then violated that agreement, and are acting in a way where they know what the consequences will be and who can carry it out, do you resolve the situation realistically. With people reacting as noted by many of the examples in the vid. Hopefully, because of 1 and 2 you'll never have to worry about it.
I've been a player and a GM, and while I'm sure there is a number of exceptions, most times when the 'murder hobo' aspect came out in games I played, was that the DM was trying to 'railroad' the players into doing something, or making an NPC full on asshole, like a shopkeeper who was selling a +3 Dagger for like 50 Gold, so we worked together with our Rogue to get that money through a few quests and selling major items, and the DM didn't WANT him to have that +3 Dagger yet, but instead of it being 'sold' by the time we returned. He just said that the Shopkeeper hiked the price to 1000 Gold while we were gone, and had him cackle, and we were like "OH, we're not supposed to BUY it to get it, we're supposed to steal or take it!" So we made a plan to steal it... Dead Shop keeper and half dozen guards later we escaped from the City only to have the Dagger 'magically vanish' from our level 7 party's inventory due to a protective spell... When we got angry the DM finally let it slip that we weren't supposed to HAVE it yet, and... Yeah it kinda fucked up the enjoyment of the game.
So I'm pretty sure a number of the ''Murder Hobo' instances is that the DM will intentionally antagonize players with situations that 'common sense' would tell them to back down, to people who wield enough power that 'backing down' isn't the only option, and when it blows up in their face they get angry at their players for not doing what they expected.
This is a good insight. Murder hobo games are a failure on the GM’s part. If you didn’t give your players a home or create NPC’s for them to form positive relationships with, you cant be surprised when they don’t care about anything or anyone.
If they are a high-level party, I don't. They have earned it. If they want to be the doom of this world, then I suppose that's the campaign we're playing. Yeah some of the factions will try to hunt them down but others will try to befriend them and get on their good side, and let me tell you - nothing gets your players going like some flattery. If I didn't like something they did specifically (rare occasion), I usually show them the consequences of their actions somehow, and they are usually repulsed by themselves and don't repeat it. If that doesn't work I straight up tell them to not do it anymore.
Honestly a lot of the answers seem to have a lot to do with "how do I stop them" which I think is the wrong mentality - a DM should empower his PCs, try to provide them with a meaningful choices and show (for the most part) the consequences of that choice. A DM should not play fun police.
unless they under derailing the plot that they AGREED to participate beforehands, without talking with dm, of course. but yes, this is the best answer to situations like these. i would only add, players should empower the dm just as much. game is for everyone on the table.
While you are right, it depends on the type of game you're playing. Everyone needs to be on the same page of what's going on. If the party wants to murderhobo then they should talk to the dm and go, "Hey, evil campaign now." The dm can then alter the game for that. The fact is though, most murderhobo players are just looking for a power fantasy and don't want there to be any consequences. Basically, they don't want to "Roleplay."
Unfortunately I’ve noticed that people who want to play out their power fantasy don’t care about the DM and their enjoyment. Honestly if there is this type of conflict the best option is to out of game tell the players to please stop being so antagonistic, and if they refuse to change then either stop the game or begin a new game with characters that don’t have their high level privileges anymore
It really comes down to what or why you might need to do so.
I would rather add consequences (not necessarily killing the characters) giving all of the players choices to make and extending the game. But then again, I build entire worlds with multiple campaigns set up. I try to give my players a lot of freedom and options.
However. Just because your character is a high level, doesn't mean they have earned the right to disregard the laws of other HIGH LEVEL beings who control cities, kingdoms and empires. (Unless those players have set themselves up as leaders of Nations, Kingdoms or empires themselves.)
This isn't about player fun or player desire. It is about maintaining the WORLD the campaign is set in. Actions always have consequences. It is best to show that to the players instead of just letting them have their way.
Trying to stop the party is the consequence of their choices. Kings and leaders want the status quo to keep going on because they have power RIGHT NOW, and those that aren't morally opposed to their actions would be thinking "Can I trust that once the dust settles that I get to keep anything that the party gave me? Especially with what the rumors are saying?" The only time I don't see an outcome for breaking laws and then a large ammount of chaos afterwards, (IE. Burning down the town because you don't want to go to jail for stealing a sweet roll) that isn't lets stop them is a world where its clear that nobody, including all towns and leaders together has a chance of actually being able to stop them.
I still don't like the "Player is always right!" thing thats been showing up. I'm sorry, but if you've sold me as a DM a character thats for the most part good, or evil im not going to let you start doing stuff thats dramatically outside of those actions unless you give me a good character incentive outside of "I just wanna do it and you're a bad DM for limiting my choice if you don't let me".
In addition to the methods mentioned here, I think this is one acceptable place to use DMPCs/overpowered NPCs. Like, you’re causing trouble in Waterdeep, and keep escalating? Well, Open Lord Laeral Silverhand also happens to be a lvl 40 wizard demigod, and if you get to the point where she’s saying “don’t make me do this,” you better not push it any farther, or you are going to eat a couple Imprisonment spells until you learn to behave.
Worst case scenario, if it gets that far, the King of the realm can have a Luck Blade with a single Wish left on it, the PCs want to push it far enough the king can take out his sword and use the wish spell so they never existed in the first place.
Yeah, wishes don't work that way.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 Lets be real, Wishes do whatever the GM says they do with whatever repercussions the GM says they have, so Wish can absolutely do what I explained here if the GM says they do.
@@Nyghtking fun would be this: group of Level 20 Bad Heros stand in Front of the king and he draw His sword and His wish is that the time ist turnt back for the Heros so the become Level 1 again! And than say calm: roll Initiative
@@Barlmoro *Megalovania starts playing*
@@Nyghtking It was specifically banned in the wording in 1e, and I don't play 5e and never will. It is baby mode.
My simple solution is that there would realistically be alot of powerful NPC’s within the setting. A level 17 party is going to have a hard time countering the city’s archmage deciding to cast invulnerability on themselves and is throwing around DC 20 disintegrations like they’re going out of style.
Level 17 characters are not common in any setting. If a level 17 character shows signs of murder hoboism, the best way to deal with it, is getting rid of the player.
It doesn't even take high-level enemies to take down 17th level characters.
A 5th level assassin could accomplish it. Poison their food, turn people against them, etc.
You can't murder your way out of EVERYTHING, and you can't be on 24/7 alert forever.
@@matunusdonnerhammer3423it is much easier to simply put that player in their place, at least for me, than it would be to eject the player from the group/campaign. Don't even need to kill the character to do so.
It does depend on the setting, world and campaign. But since I build entire worlds with multiple campaigns.. so having something come around and collect the character and add an additional route of gameplay is always an option.
I'd rather add to the game than remove from it.
@@matunusdonnerhammer3423 In DND Archmages are very common. There are entire were and societies full of them.
@@sidecharacter7165 They are not common, it just some of them are very interest in helping the world so you can see them everywhere in some setting.
09:08 That actually sounds like an interesting plotline to follow: There is a small kingdom where the party finds that the townspeople are particularly uncaring about their strength. If they try to intimidate any merchant or soldier, they automatically fail. The only answer they get is "this is "name's" land. You have no authority here". This is surprising because they are OBVIOUSLY stronger than the civilians, and the guards are not nearly enough to put up a fight. (They are not even trying)
If they mess around enough, then the leader of the kingdom, a (relatively) high level evil wizard shows up and tries to murderize them.
When the wizard is defeated they learn that they are now the latest ruler in a long line of weirdos that came to the kingdom, and conquered it.
The populace is so used to this that they are not even bothered. After all, a smart king will not abuse their own kingdom, and a dumb or evil king will not last long against the constant flow of adventurers roaming the lands.
This is hilarious.
"oh the king got killed. How long you think the new ones will last?" "Eh I'll give em bout 2 months."
2:30 add to this that the old characters should now persist as NPCs, which will eventually have to be taken down.
"I cast fireball on the shopkeeper!"
"Okay, roll a wisdom check" (needs a nat 20 or is outright impossible)
"Wuh wha- what do you mean wisdom check? *rolls*"
"You fail to notice the battery of wards in place for such an occasion. In a split second, all shelves, cases, tables and displays of wares disappear, leaving the room bare as your spell fizzles and he shopkeeper teleports away giving you a disdainful sneer. The door and windows seem to melt away as well, as a good dozen or so Magehunters teleport into the room, and the walls then darken starkly in what you recognize as a Private Sanctum spell being activated. Roll initiative!"
All of these are good.
Especialy the thieves one.
Durig our current campaign our characters where robbbed after a large fight drained all our spells and actions.
We have spend the last 5 session hunting down and killing every robbed fist(the crimimals symbol)
We had also burned down a forge belonging to a council member in self defendse.
And given we need to be on the council good side for trade deals my character want the owner of the forge blackmailed us into getting rid of the robbed fist.
Now my character did consider having her assasinated but decided against it because it would be to obvious and would only slow down his plans even more.
Sometimes all you need to get the players to behave is by making it in there interest to do so.
Sure you could attack this farm but that would lead to starvasion in that local town you are trying to convince to make you major.
Being major of a ghost town isnt fun....
Send in MaxTac (actual MaxTac, regardless of the setting or system you're playing in)
YES
The problem with using multiple high level NPC or a specialized task force to stop your PC is that, why are the PC needed ? Depending on the campaign it isn't an issue but if the party goal is to stop a cult or something from hurting a city why are they the one doing it instead of the high level NPC or the specialized task force.
Proxy warfare? Maybe some political shenanigans (or curse) don’t allow this specific city-state to send its regular army against the cult in *that* location? Anyone born on this land (or from some common ancestor) can’t willingly hurt a cultist due to some ancient pact?
Also, diversion of resources? Assembling the high-level task force has left many small towns undefended, but the party is so bad it was justified? Perhaps many towns in the kingdom have a “someone got lost in the woods and never returned, some say there’s some kinda cult” problem, but the party is so bad it sends the govt into a brainstorm panic? The elite troops had to abandon their previous mission elsewhere and rush to hunt down the party instead?
Foreign intervention? The task force was summoned from another world through costly rituals? The king had to sacrifice his firstborn (or pay some other great cost he wouldn’t pay otherwise for a local conflict problem) because the party just might massacre the whole local population?
Expanding on what Grievous Nix said: not every reason needs to be mystical (curses & stuff), as they suggested. There could be trivial complications with why and how this "specialized task force" is regulated. Maybe they are very expensive mercs and city does not want to drain their coffers if it can use other options. Maybe the task force is comprised of City Guard Lieutenants who are engaged in active duty as they are guard's city district commanders and need to constantly coordinate lower rank guards, meaning they can "abandon" their post to assemble when there is clear threat present (such as PCs going around killing everyone). And if there is no evidence of the cult being an actual mortal threat to the city - it is simply too risky to send them.
Or this special task force is represented by some kind of a knight chapter and they are mostly exempt from everyday life but can intervene when the situation is obviously bad for innocent people.
Or they have some kind of a constant problem they need to keep an eye on (a portal to hell), so they don't want to leave it unsupervised unless something is getting close to FUBAR for them to actually see it as a priority over the portal (like PCs killing everyone around).
Or the most effective way to contain the threat for the city is some kind of technology or magical artifact that is very precious and they don't want to take it outside the vault unless FUBAR-level event is in progress.
There are tons of reasons you can find depending on a type of settlement and setting you are playing it. Like, take Ravnica or Eberron for example. Both are very civilized (mostly) settings with established intitutions, including ones specializing in law enforcement, policing and peace keeping. Still, there are plenty of reasons why they might want to reach out to someone. Some of which are outlined in many adventures written for these settings.
Also, i constantly use those specialized higher level teams and resources to PCs if they are in good enough standing with the city and can articulate why they require such a high level of help.
They don't have the same information and haven't gone through the same things as you. If they don't know about a threat or don't have enough information on it. Moving a super powerful person would be extremely expensive and/or time-consuming. You are both a threat they know about and have enough information on to put down as soon as possible.
Instead of a high level NPC, the local garrison force is overwhelming in number and has prepared homefield advantages.
A thousand local militia with spears and bows surrounding and setting fire to the tavern you're in, while the local magos college of 30 mages, empowered by the local temple they've built just for this purpose because evil wizards raiding the town is a problem, don't let you use any magic, is an overwhelming force, but if you marched it into the woods to confront the BBEG, he'd see it coming a mile away, and it'd be destroyed immediately by traps and ambushes with AOE attacks and so on. Also, that'd leave the town unprotected, so the local militia wouldn't be willing to do that anyway.
It's like how if you send the local militia of Mogadishu to take out a Taliban leader, they're gonna march into Afghanistan and get wrecked, whereas a team of delta in a Blackhawk would get him easy, but if you hover your Blackhawk with a team of delta inside over downtown Mogadishu, the local militia is parading your bodies through the streets by morning.
"How do you play a fight against a thousand men?"
You don't. It's a cutscene where you run out of a burning building and get turned into a pincushion by a volley of hundreds of arrows.
It's hard to justify in smaller towns and villages, but for larger cities and capitals, i just use the fantasy equivalent of swat teams to handle it. Bard negotiators, paladin area denile teams, spell snipers, rogue, fighter, cleric, artificer entry teams, etc. Mission: protect life, secure evidence, bring order to chaos.
Though, if it's a problem player or party that decides to be real shitters about it like holding on to an ultra powerful artifact that was supposed to be destroyed. I'll sometimes crack out the "Shollars of Canny Protectors" Foundation to deal with it.
Hmmmm... Where have I heard that acronym before
I usually have a few high leveled NPCs as law enforcers or Royal Guards, but usually they dont step up.
Depends on where the crimes are being commited. If they want to kill a smal vilage and leave no witnesses they can get away with it pretty easily. However if they mess up on a kingdom capital they will have to face much stronger guards and officers. I usually give them a few levels on some classes like fighter and ranger as well.
If the players are really strong maybe even at lvl 20 they can try to overthrow the goverment by sheer force. That really brings a new dimension into the game. They can start shaping the world around them bc they have gained a lot of resourses and now politics and social encounters are unavoidable
I love how that one person is all "yuck, police!" in a post about how to deal with a group of dangerous psychopaths.
I presume the "yuck" is more about having this doctrine enacted universally, like on lil' orphan Timmy stealing some bread.
Yeah that fella is just tragic. Their “50 town guards” are probably all unarmed mental health specialists unless he/she want to be hypocritical.
@@opbattleaxe8744 They*
Worldbuilding reply, is coolest in my opinion. I would even make King geshtalt character to justify why He is in power.
At some point 10 angels start following your party and kidnap you to floating tower you can't fight in and have to stealth out every time you commit a crime.
I would send someone known as the minstrel of death. He’s a college of whispers bard and has levels in rogue and the sharpshooter feat.
He has a signature crossbow called the messenger which deals double damage and has a harpoon launcher installed.
He has spells to give himself advantage on attack rolls and can do a lot of the same B.S players can. It makes him very annoying to fight because he can drop aoes on you or deal a ton of burst damage and use cunning action to go back into stealth, disengage, or dash if he is spotted.
He also has an ever-smoking bottle and will use smoke and mirrors tactics to stay out of sight and avoid being targeted by spells.
So unless you are able to beat his stealth and close the distance he’s probably the toughest fight in the campaign.
He’s actually an old character of mine a half elf bard by the name of Gaelyn Morviyere, he wears a silly costume and plays the fiddle. He has a prosthetic left arm made of silver and powered by magic and a finger on his right hand has been replaced.
He also is covered in battle scars under his costume showing like the players he is a seasoned adventurer. This is a fight where they are likely to be hopelessly outmatched.
sending a min-maxed character is great, but have you considered tucker's assassins guild (basically tucker's kobolds but assassins)
sure, you can kill them fast, but what about taking a stray shot while you are in combat, or them pilfering a store which may or may not contain cursed items honeypots.
@@satibel The funny thing is in a normal game you can pay this guy to avoid a potentially deadly encounter. You will lose a bit of gold and potentially miss out on some loot he takes as payment for his services.
You can also refuse his help and he will be on his merry way. The only way to actually piss him off is to try to get out of paying the piper if you make a deal with him. I've never dmed for dnd before but if I do I'll make him an npc.
@@funnyblog100
> gives you borrowed power in exchange for payment
>The only way to actually piss him off is to try to get out of paying the piper if you make a deal with him.
you're making the players into warlocks.
@@satibel Oh he doesn’t give you power or anything he will just go and deal with it himself. He’s a mercenary. He’s an old character of mine the gm let us start with a feat so I took sharpshooter and later crossbow expert dipped into rogue planned on going assassin subclass for that. College of whispers for bard. I was later going to take two dips in fighter for action surge. He also had a lightning enchanted rapier as well as that signature crossbow I mentioned.
Meaning not only does he auto crit on surprised enemies but he can deal out multiple attacks in a turn and I mentioned his signature crossbow is a harpoon gun that already deals double damage. So quadruple damage on a crit plus the damage from sneak attack, psychic blades, and sharpshooter.
Yeah he’s a bit broken and worked for the royal guard at one point. Sadly the game was cancelled before I could finish his arc and complete this build.
I’ve never dmed for dnd before but this guy is actually pretty terrifying. There’s a good reason the dm of the game I played him in made him a priority target in combat. This half elf bard in a silly costume dressed like a clown or jester and playing the fiddle was actually an extremely dangerous and feared assassin. He acted all flamboyant and would put on a performance but then there were times he would drop the theatrics and the music would suddenly be drowned out by screams and sounds of bodies hitting the floor.
@@funnyblog100 I mean, the difference between p(r)aying for a greedy fay to smite thy enemy and hiring a high level mercenary is pretty thin.
also is this character inspired by Landsknecht or is it just a coincidence? they also were mercenaries using flamboyant costumes.
Make sure that immersion is priority #1 by not having special units that are too OP that make you say "well why didn't they kill the god damn Lich King that threatened the whole world?" But rather, if a high level player goes quicksaving mode on a whole city, give them some time to continue as normal and then when they least expect it, the son/daughter/niece/nephew/grandson/granddaughter/wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend appears out of nowhere claiming that they are the evil villain to THEIR adventure, and then make this unique new character OP as hell. Remind the player they once were just like them.
Also while they adventure after the massacre, give some subtle clues that someone is coming for them, have a bounty or contract in a board somewhere, a survivor recognizing them in the middle of another town/city, etc.
The main idea is that "destiny always favors justice" and everyone and everything plays a role in achieving that.
Player: Can I try to stab the shopkeeper and steal all his stock.
Me: I’d really prefer if you didn’t.
Player: Ok fair enough.
I always make sure to inform my players of the “order of power levels” in my worlds. Most NPCs are levels 1-5 with 1 being most citizens and 5 being filled by most trained soldiers and guards. 5-10 are filled with mercenaries, special soldiers, and other special class characters. 10-15 is reserved for special positions such as Archwizards, the head priest, generals, etc. 15-20 are definitely named NPCs, powerful ally’s, or villains. This doesn’t account for the tools these places would have to kill or capture powerful beings. Also the level of variety amongst the guards. In a setting in which spell casting is common it makes complete sense the guards would have casters amongst them as well.
In these situations I'd employ the method having superheavy troopers that are difficult to effectively field and maintain.
Essentially they're more powerful than the players and something to be navigated around rather than fought.
This also can go far for explaining why whatever is capable of fighting the party doesn't just fight the BBEG. Because you really can't extend that kind of firepower very far before attrition and supply issues become lethal.
One cool thing about this kind of encounter is that you can have it also employed by the enemy too.
The encounter is designed to be navigated and maneuvered around after all, so the players very well can win.
That said it'd be a brutal slog to deal with so the players absolutely will essentially turn that city into a place where it's essentially some kind of heist just to exist in.
Random Encounter: Old Man Jenkins was perfectly fine, sitting on his front porch, pondering his memories of Adventures past...
Considering adding yet another Garden Gnome _Golem_ to his Front Lawn.
When you Force him to get up, & choose Violence.
It's a Cohen The Barbarian thing.
You get Old, in a profession that regularly Kills(or worse) Young?
_You're not gonna fail Skill Checks against anything less than Divinity_
"oh you took all the store's items?" well, some of them are honeypots, they're cursed items which trigger once they're far enough from the shop.
Better yet: "Okay, you successfully make off with all those colorful vials from the potion shop. Oh, you're drinking the one labeled 'Healing' to cure the damage you took from the trapped display case? Well, its contents heal {rolls dice without even pretending to look at them} zero damage. And you recognize the taste as grape juice. Darn, maybe if you'd just *paid* for your purchases like a normal person, the shopkeeper would've fetched you the real things from the secure vault in the back room? Guess you're stuck with a bagful of worthless ringers to go along with being a known thief, now."
That’s kinda imursure breaking, like why would a store only be selling cursed items where would they get that many cursed items.
It feels like a cheap gotcha, from a dm
@@jellojiei6061 the thing is the store wouldn't be selling these items, they would be giving them to robbers.
similar to what is sometimes done nowadays with giving items with a gps tracker in case of robbery.
basically it's your regular magic store, but there's an "ask a clerk for purchase" sign or just some items under a glass bell with no price on them, that are basically decoration for the store, but are cursed/enchanted with annoying stuff in case someone breaks in and steals them.
@@satibelHow to get murdered by a level 15 rouge
I've found that my favorite method is attrition. If you've gotten enough people mad, you're going to become quickly paranoid. It's hard to recover HP, spell slots, and more if you can't get a long rest, or even a short rest.... and fatigue sets in really, really quickly when you're running on 2 hours of sleep at a time. Good luck in that tiny hut too - bunkering up just gives me ample excuses to ritual up.
With that in mind, let me tell you the true terrors that are kobold nests....
Graduating scales of difficulty by running a militaristic meritocracy as kingdom standard, kind of like how clans synergize and optimize their competition in videogames. If they get too trigger happy, I've got synergized groups of high level characters in rare gear. The secret to my campaign is that the old king is actually more powerful than the BBEG and WILL finish what you start. Never had anyone press that far, but the idea was to imprison them and force them into the arena with either the best foil I have for their build, or against the king himself.
Basically, the kingdom scales way harder than the mobs do and will get very involved down to sending an inquisitor to join your party on order of the king.
Basically, they were here first and no matter how powerful you think you are, they've already finished several campaigns of their own by the time your party arrived.
No matter how big and bad you are... there IS ALWAYS someone bigger and Badder.
I like the idea that their characters become so infamous that they become villains. Keep the character sheets and have them come back to haunt them later as enemies.
1:33 an alternative of this that could be interesting would be to gradually change the types of NPCs willing to work with them based on their stigma, rather than just locking them out entirely. The closer they get to "murderhobo", the shadier the merchants and quest givers who will interact with them, giving them quests that progress from "righteous and upstanding" to "morally gray" to "genocidal" (but there's always a convincing reason to do it) and if they finally get far enough, the party finds out that they're actually working for the BBEG now.
A) create teams of rival adventures. You are not the center of the world but a part of a larger one. And some adventures are also going about dealing with bandits like you.
B) seed in leveled characters here and there. That blacksmith who spends his days pounding metal into shapes? He's going through some issues and was begging to test out some of his gear basically a level 7 barbarian with a few levels in fighter. Brother goodbury wasn't always a cleric he was once a palidan of conquest given a second chance. If the gods wills it he may prove to be just as skilled with a sword as he is with his healing. Old man mashhit may not look it but he has a secret trick in his walking stick called shillelagh and knows green flame blade and was once a rouge so roll sneak with both hits.
I've been planning to get into DnD for a while now, and I've came up with 5 plans depending on how game-ruining the players are being. The trick is to let your players know that you want everyone to enjoy the campaign, yourself included, without breaking immersion
5. Just trying to derail the campaign
Let them go one, maybe two sessions without advancing the story, then start having your BBEG undo their progress, re-casting hypnosis spells and re-instating tyrants. Maybe even put delayed fireballs on castle gates.
4. *THAT* player
There will be times when a player has to be the main character. And if it's not ruining things for everyone else, let the people have their fun. But it will eventually become a problem. Once the problem starts taking all the credit, endulge them to the point of no return. Make the other players know that they're being overshadowed by this player, that their credit is being stolen. Have NPCs stop recognizing the rest of the party. But here's the best part: only have the problem player be targeted in battle. Make it obvious that this person is the readon why things are so unenjoyable. From here, you have many options. The path of least resistance is to convince the rest of your party to kill that player, though you should have a backup plan for the manchild's tantrum. If you're looking for something more fun, apply higher-level plans, and make sure they mainly target the biggest issue
3. Light murderhobo
Sometimes, players just want to kill people that they don't like. This is a major problem. This video explains it perfectly: have the guards start hammering them down, shopkeeps aren't willing to deal with them, the usual. But if you're willing to, you can take it further.
3+. The genocide
If you want to show your players that even they don't enjoy what they've become, undertale's genocide run is a perfect example. Grind, grind, and grind some more, never resting. A second enjoyed is a second wasted. If you want your players to realize the consequences without having to sacrifice too much time and effort to stopping them, just don't let the session end until they learn. Make them keep playing until they realize that murdering everyone they see isn't fun. Don't let them get up, make sure everyone has enough energy-items to stay awake at the table, and send an encounter their way every time they try to rest, inside or outside of the game. But if you're a petty sunovabech...
2. HEAVY murderhobo
If your players start to kill on sight, but you're still willing to keep playing with them, get another group of players in another campaign set in the same universe, hunting down your problem party. Don't let them get off the trail, but keep them two steps behind the party at all times. Eventually, schedule both sessions at the same time, but have them come in from opposite sides of the location. Make the parties fight eachother, a classic good vs evil, winner takes all, make them question their life choices. But if all else fails, every DM has one trick up their sleeve that they can always use
1. The serious plan
If your players are fully enjoying the suffering they cause you, this is the plan you need to use ASAP
Step 1. Schedule a "session" on a day you know damn well everyone can make. No holidays, no funerals, not a sign of sickness. Everyone will be there
Step 2. Completely stop the session. Don't even have the DnD stuff out this time. Talk to them about the pain they're causing you and how you're not sure if you can keep going with this campaign anymore. From here, things can go one of 3 ways
Step 3A: your party accepts that they've hurt you and plans to be better in the next campaign. Congratulations, all is well
Step 3B: your party thinks you're overreacting and wants you to keep dragging on anyway. Stand your ground. Tell them that there's no way around what they've done to you. Do not let them escape. Make them admit their guilt or cut all contact with them. Either they live sorry, they live without you, or they force you to draw weapons of your own
Step 3C: your party wants to make the campaign something more enjoyable for you. Have them go back to the session where it all went wrong, resetting their characters to that time, and play things out differently.
The trick is to let your players know that you want everyone to enjoy the campaign, yourself included, without breaking immersion
"Hey officer someone robbed me"
"Haha lmao"
The gaurd proceeds to get vicious mockery'd to death.
Three options:
1) An old woman walks into the tavern etc. the PCs are in points a finger at them and accuses them of one of the crimes they committed. She declares a curse and drops dead. The PC(s) are then inflicted with a curse that can't be removed by a simple "remove curse" or even "wish" spell.
2) The government issues a bounty and puts out posters. The party is then attacked at the most inconvenient moments over and over again. They may not get a chance for a proper "long rest" unable to heal, or recover spells, suffer exhaustion levels etc. as they are hounded constantly.
3) MY FAVORITE especially if there are one or two players that are not on board with the murder-hobos in the party and you have played a few campaigns with the same players: A cloaked and cowled figure enters the tavern and stands in the door way for a moment surveying the room as the storm rages outside then steps inside and lets the door close behind him. He walks up to the bar, orders a beer and pays with a heavy seeming coin purse. The barkeep looks inside then up at the figure they exchange a few low words and the barkeep announces that they are closing and not to worry about the bills. The figure turns around and faces directly a the PCs table brings the mug up to his hood and tilts it back. The hood falls back revealing a middle aged dwarf with a long brown beard streaked with grey. History or almost any check with a low DC allows the players to recognize Andrew's old character "Keldorn Son of Dorn!" Once the room clears of bystanders or the PCs try to leave he calls out the PCs by party name or individually and says they are under arrest listing their crimes. Keldorn has had some upgrades since we last saw him and Andrew (the player that wasn't on the murder hobo train) gets to control him. If Keldorn start to loose then surprise he didn't come alone. The Wizard and Cleric are outside locking down the building and sending in buffs. The Ranger and Rogue slipped in while he held the door open under a greater invisibility spell and are hitting the PCs from behind. Oh and they are also armed with the Iron Bands of Bilarro or some other imprisonment devise to pokemon the PCs into custody.
Next campaign, they are hunting down their former characters and seeing the atrocities committed.
For Fabula Ultima, we have a guard stat block, but I would make each guard triple the combined party level, give them the best basic equipment possible, and depending on their level, give them a "Spell Counter" Counter Skill to reflect the spell's effect back at the caster. Make the party be more cautious about the guard, as they will scale depending on the threat, be it villain or hero.
First time DM and the party's about to enter a town. This will be most useful
5:30 Pretty much
If guards can't do it, go the POTCO way;
Have special mercenaries and bounty hunters go after them. You can literally have a party of adventurers hunt them, giving the vibe that they aren't the only adventurers in the world and since they became villains; others are after them.
I always send in the most chaotic concepts I've found.
reverse a/c, other parties with power builds....
really good ideas and concepts to play around with in general. very fun.
"You remember those sigils the king put on you at the VERY start of the campaign after you signed your contracts you refused to read? Yea...those were sigils of death. You all fall over dead. End of campaign, no there is not a saving throw, yes he would have removed them at the end of the campaign."
That seems like a "final straw" move, also repinds me of the prisoners diving gear from pressure, where you have a loaded monobarrel shotgun pointed at ur neck at all times.
I like to occasionally hire the party to 'bring-in' other parties who have screwed up in town. Or even have them try to get hired and have them turned-down; telling them that there are other, more established parties that the town uses for such things. It can remind them that they aren't the highest-level group around. They stand out because of their heroism and such. Some parties will take all this as a challenge! That's cool too, if that's the game they want to play. Although, evil parties can get boring quickly if you don't constantly change things up.
A sorceror lawyer whose magic literally forces any violence to cease and only allows for them to argue their case against each other
Following the "character levels equal fame" logic, at high level, the characters are the law.
People look up to them for solving problems and dealing with petty thieves. They make or break the nation. If the nation dies, so does everything in it. Like the magical items that could have helped the PCs on their upcoming mission.
It's as they say: No economy, no candy.
Tbh it heavily depends on how you establish the" level-to-narrative" connection. The "make or break the nation" is an extreme approach i personally dislike. By default the level 20 PCs can be a pretty big deal, but they dont have to be "god-like". There can be plenty of "level 20" (or CR20+) NPCs around, depending on the location. I'm sure Sharn and Ravnica both have hundreds of such characters: guild leaders, guard captains, other types of prominent leaders. It's not like the PCs are the only ones in the whole world who can "level up" doing their job. Others do too. in Ravnica GMs have CR starting at 18 IIRC. And every single one would have personal entourage, perhaps whole squads of high CR creatures, to back them up.
Sure, PCs might be able to defeat one BBEG of high CR, but they usually work towards that for quite some time, prep, study their opposion, find the weaknesses, etc. But can they "out of the blue" take on a mob of 10 characters of this level with close to no prep (i assume in this instance that you don't run the adventure about them taking over the city)? In my adventures the usual answer is "well, you can try" - but it would rarely go their way. However, thank god i did not have to actually run those types of encounters.
At level 10, with the right gear, you're powerful enough to slay an adult dragon. If you do that, people will NOT be indifferent. Upon victory, you'll have secured the hoard, enough wealth to found a new nation. That dragon terrorized a huge region, demanding tribute during generations. Would the formely oppressed gather far and wide in celebration? You bet they would. They celebrate festivals and do pilgrimages for far less than what you just did. And if you try and persuade them to stay under your banner, is that a stretch to think that maybe they will consider it? That maybe your heroics can inspire those who lost everything to stay and start anew? That kind of influence rivals that of the king's general, who is most likely level 13 and commands the army. And depending on the king's approval rating, more may defect to your banner. Why serve a tyrant when you can serve the Dragon Slaying Liberator?
So, if all you think of is murder hoboing at this point, you're not getting the guards, but the whole army. And if you defeat this army, well, I guess you've just successfully ruined a nation through guerrilla warfare. And then, the doomsday cult summons Cthulu or something and you get nothing out of the treasury, because the king fled with its most valuable pieces while the Thieves' Guild raided the rest, disbanded and scattered. The king helped them do it before you could. Out of spite.
With those concrete examples to illustrate, does it make the "make or break the nation" approach more palatable?
@@claude-alexandretrudeau1830
There is a LOT of text below. Due to how it was written, there are possibilities of mistakes, sentences ending abruptly and stuff. Im sorry if that happens. If you dont want to read the whole thing, i suggest reading summary at the end, especially point 3, as i think it is the most important one.
Obviously i'm not telling you how to steer your boat. TTRPGs are what a particular party or a person makes them to be to enjoy their games.
But for the sake of the discussion, the 2 biggest problems are the undefined scale and the "narrative vs. character level" duality.
Dragons and their hoard:
i dont know what setting you are playing in, but it is rare that 1 adult dragon @ lvl 10 has enough hoard to pay for a whole nation and gives influence to rival an established (not hated) general. I guess there can be settings where the power dynamics and balance are tuned that way.
Per Monster's Manual, an archmage, warlord, archdruid are all CR12 (CR, not level).
And one would think every big city has at least one of them, realistically more like tens to hundreds of NPCs of that scale.
While the weakest adult dragons are CR13, so presumably the party of lvl10's would need to prepare extensively while the archmage is much closer to taking him "1v1".
I would argue Forgotten Realms as written is below average on the difficulty scale for settings.
"Smaller" (CR13) adult dragons are not so powerful as to keep a big, established "capital-level" city terrorized. Though it varies from one settings to another, adult dragons are more often a nuisance than a threat for a BIG faction.
Maybe they can terrorize a small city for some time. Some villages, trade routes - no problem. But a whole-ass kingdom by themselves? Then again, if the kingdom itself is small and weak... Say, Luxembourg. Not France or England.
However, I feel like your description is much closer to an ancient dragon (CR21), not adult ones.
For a CR13 dragon, there is rarely a situation where adventurers get anything more than a nice sum of money, enough perhaps to finance a small-to-meduim sized faction, if they keep the hoard.
Plus some kind of a commendation, special status as a hero bestowed by the highest authority, giving them some amount of limited benefits: king's letter that allows to request free accomodation and food anywhere in the kingdom for a limited time, for example. Plus people's respect, leading to discounts and stuff. Oh, and perhaps one day's worth of festival.
For example: Things like MCDM books, other supplements and 3e rulebooks put the costs of noble estates and forts at around 20k gold. Big warships at around 25k gold. Castles are 500k.
RAW level 13 characters (as dragon CR is that) are getting 39k gold per face. Total 195k per 5. So let's assume we are a party of 5 @ 13, as per dragon CR. That'll be 8 to 10 medium buildable assets. Or a big village/small city worth of smaller buildings not including the roads and stuff. Not exactly "nation-building", especially if we want to make players finance not only the buildings, but the additional expenses too, like equipment for their knights for example.
Continuing on the overall power rankings and CRs:
In my experience a good general for a succesful kingdom is around CR12-16 (CR, not level, i want to stress that). Plus he would have loyal knights or something in that way. They'd be around CR10-12 each. Plus an arch-battlemage or two, plus captains, plus sergeants, plus the whole-ass army of low-level grunts. But still - an army.
For example, the most powerful faction in official books i think is the Ravnican Boros Guild. Aurelia as a guildmaster (effectively an angel-queen of military guild) is CR23 per the official book, plus she most likely would have a few Solars Or Planetars as bodyguards or advisors. Let's say one of each. That's a CR21+CR16 creatures. Now we add to the mix some Battleforce angels led by a Firemane or two if we assume they knew of the battle and were not pulled away in some fashion. Now we got ourselfs a force of NPCs with a total CR around, i dont know, a 150? And that's only 2 squads worth of forces (most powerful squads in the faction, but still). Now again, this example is one of, if not the most powerful faction across all official books. In a setting, that is overall i think a little higher in CR.
But that is a good example of how CR scales in a place with a big population of high CR NPCs.
In summary:
1. Basically, what you describe is a place that is already primed for a rebellion due to the monarch's actions. Therefore it is not as much characters "making or breaking", as being in a right place at a right time. Not a situation where your fame itself is a catalyst to people joining you. The "fame" example is more corrent i think in a situation where characters gain followers and/or establish a faction to which people flock day and night, becoming so powerful as to rival others in the world.
2. Technically, you can become a rebellion leader and sway people to your cause @ lvl5, persuading much more capable NPCs to join you. To that point, "Pathfinder: Kingmaker" starts the characters at lvl 1 with the whole premise of them making a nation. And it will work in a real D&D game, why not? I myself GMd many games about "colonizing unknown territories" and "resettling war-torn regions" to know that the level does not matter at all. Too many variables, from GM preferences to setting to type of game, etc.
3. That's why i try to approach this video and discussion around it in a more sterile, numbers-based way + RAW. Will the players be able to break existing nations if they are stable, with the standing military and no wildcard disasters in the mix? Like, if they suddenly just decided to assault a capital and kill a king or something. Will they be able to conquer a chunk of land from them to make their own? Smaller ones - perhaps. Bigger ones - i think pretty much impossible.
@@vitorossi7839The rewards for killing a Dragon really suck in my opinion.
In my world i dont nerf the Dragons like some DMs do. So if you manage to kill it the rewards are much much better.
Dragons are really difficult to deal with if they act like smart creatures. If you invade his land you may have to fight a small army and probably wont be able to find a place to rest at all bc the Dragon wont just let it slide if he knows they are there. Good Luck trying to deal with him flying around and diving from the sky to kill you with his breath.
Also depending on the Dragon personality he probably wont fight you to the death if he is losing badly so you have to think how to secure the kill as well.
I think the problem with having guards that are too good is it raises the question of how the villains get away with it. Granted, maybe they get away with it because they use subterfuge instead of just killing the shopkeeper and taking their stuff, but all that means is the players need to use subterfuge. I think it would be good to consider how you'd stop the players from a worldbuilding perspective, since they'll need to stop non-player murderhobos and having a system for that is good worldbuilding, but for actually dealing with the players, I see two options:
1. Tell the players you're not comfortable DMing an evil campaign, and they can either not be evil, or find another DM.
2. Shift into an evil campaign.
My old gm had a number of ways to keep up in check. The first one was a particularly high attrition rail roady campaign where our antics managed to piss off a mysterious crime lord called the fairy godfather and we were forced to do a series of increasingly suicidal jobs for him while trying to figure out who he was, where we could get him, and avoid a tpk so at least one of our pcs could pass the intel we collected to the next batch of disposable pawns.
We also learned real quick to not mess with recurring npcs. For instance every dnd campaign had a fairly weak info broker named Kravos who we would regularly best like piniata till he sung like a canary. Over time his intel would get less accurate, or lead into traps, then we started crossing paths with our old pcs from other games, finally we got word of some all powerful magufin that resulted in an absolutely brutal campaign where we finally reach the fabled magufin beat to shit only to find Kravos surrounded mercenaries and quite tired of being everyone’s punching bag.
Also we never started shit in taverns or inns despite that being the number one place to start shit. Namely because no matter what setting we played, city we played, or what the outside of the bar or inn looked like on the inside it was always the same vast interior with lots of oak furniture, gas lighting, a clientele of strange and diverse individuals from various eras, and a dark eyed patron that radiated mystery and power simply known as the barkeep. The only time we tried to start a fight in there it was out of desperation and the resulting hidden boss fight ended with us getting our asses handed to us, loosing a level and half our gear, and well as never being able to access the refuge of such places for the rest of the campaign.
7:00 to 7:10 Voice acting from regular guy into Iago / Gilbert Gottfriend, was marvellous.
I instill a respect for authority and possibly some fear of authority into them during the early levels by making sure they are aware of presence of city patrols, gate guards, a standing military presence. And as appropriate, introductions to the leaders and politicians of various government factions. The idea being that they may be the strongest around, but if a nation state wishes to rally its military against you, they can just drown you in bodies instead or enact economic sanctions against you, making it nearly impossible for you to spend money in the major cities.
Something I like to do In my games: I always tell the character that “this world is like a video game world and everyone in this world is aware of that”. So if they decide to go all out murderhobo in a town, the almighty protectors appear to deal with these law breakers. And basically make them fight immortal guards until they give up.
One idea i had before was scrolls of forced teleportation. In short a high ranking officer would have access to these scrolls, sending the target into:
1. A isolated prison within a anti magic zone
2. An makeshift execution ground, maybe the lair of a extremely dangerous monster, a cursed city where undead contineausly rise
3. The middle of the ocean
4. If you want to show how much they f.ked up, a courthouse in the plane of order
One good thing about Tasha's - Sidekicks - every Guard, Bandit, Commoner, Thug, Scout, and anything with a CR of 1/2 and lower could now be exceptionally tough.
That includes the Mule that someone laughed at, and they just asked the undertaker to get 3 coffins ready.
Actually, the Mule miscounted - make it 4 coffins.
In my world there’s very very few characters above level 10, and things tend to be a more low to mid magic setting.
That being said, there’s still OTHER threats higher than level 10, like demons, monsters, etc. so it’s not like they don’t know how to handle such situations.
High level bounty hunters make good money, a platoon or two of soldiers (if deemed necessary) will also handle MOST higher level threats, especially if anti magical abilities are utilized.
I usually go the route that everything from a small village to a huge city has a good and just semi-retired cleric. Who isn't much of a fighter nor has the complete spells and abilities of a high level cleric. But he's devote so he has the Divine Intervention ability from 5e. He can appeal to his deity once a week, for something rather selfish, there is usually a roll (except at level 20). But if you're appeal to the patron god of a town to send some otherwise impossible to deal with adventurers away that are harming your town. Then ... yea. That's it. The party will find themselves in an area (or plane) more compatible with antisocial behavior. Have fun getting supplies and a long rest when you're in a nation of only Orc villages, or a castle filled with Vampire Spawn, or a mountain of only giants. oops! Power fantasy your way out of that... it'll be fun.
I use "retired Adventurer" npcs as a sword of damocles to remind my players that taking things too far WILL have consequences.
I ran steampunk type games and one of my favourite ways was to introduce tech solutions, that either buffed local militia/police, or completely nerfed players. Party's loaded up with magic gear - tech based anti magic field projectors in all government buildings. Completely deballed all the mages, and it worked on magic gear too so all the martial players, while obsenely stronk, would have the equivilant of non magic starter weapons and armour. And they've got a lot more people they can call on than the adventurer party does.
For the first scenario if its a good player hit them with the infamous "your alignment has shifted".
In a city I made, in addition to normal town guards there is a special forces branch known as the Enforcers. Enforcers are deployed to take out huge threats. They are powerful (average one is cr 5), have state-if-the-art gear, and are deployed in large groups. There are melee fighters, archers, war casters, rogues, and support casters among them. Luckily, my party has never actually caused chaos in that city. However, one time they asked the authorities for help before they, for purposes of their own, busted a major criminal base. The criminals who fled the base were met by enforcers who had the place surrounded.
another option is to explain that you do not wish to gm a game for villains and ask which of your players is going to take over the gm role.
I play my npc's like they've got brains. Power is all well and good, but being smart conquers worlds.
te entire town with pitchforks and torches at the inn can make a player run away in fear no matter the level he is...
Luckily, my first campaign never devolved into chaos but if it did then the kingdom would have been fucked because my party was the group that the kingdom would send after the BBEG's it was 8 level 20 characters at the time of the campaign ending.
1:33 The stigma option is a good one to use if you don't want to have invincible guards.
8:20 I like those counter measure ideas. The use of invincibility, counter spell, detect thoughts, command, etc are good.
In all of my games I use Hero Points. It's hard thing to earn, because, obviously, you need to be a hero, act heroic, be humble and good, etc. Hero Points have an extreme value, have three of them and you can heroicly deny the Death itself and survive the impossible! Even one Hero Point can be used to turn the tides and/or make character shine like a star in the scene!
...
But that moment when you cross that invisible line and decide to terrorise common folk and betray your righteousness, that action where you are not a saviour anymore... "You feel a strange sort of emptiness inside. As if you lost something so valuable... You feel betrayed, by yourself... Now, clear your Hero Points, please, you not deserving them anymore"...
Of course, if character have at least one Hero Point, he will be warned about dire consequences. I find this thing expecially fascinating because those who want to be evil and drive the rest of the party towards evil deeds... This individual can find itself in trouble because the real heroes around, who not only love their Deus Ex tickets, but really, really have their time to earn their right to be called a hero.
The solution to the situation you described is to find a better group
Don't forget: The town guard has to regularly defend it against whatever lurks around the surrounding area.
Ok, here's my scenario how would a high level dnd party deal with an early modern siege of a star fortress in a fantasy setting.
The problem with, "well... then the Lords of the Land call in Seal Team Six and kill/capture you" is if the powers that be can just "NO U" them into the dungeon/to death, then why do the players have a "job?" If the authorities are just that powerful by default, then what's the need for adventurers?
I once had a party who got on the wrong side of a group of halfling bandits. One of them was allowed to escape to “spread fear”; and he went the halfing neighborhood of the poor district I’d intended for them to help once they learned why a group of halfings armed with saps would be desperate enough try to rob them in their sleep. Of course they were less than welcoming when the group of thugs who “jumped” bilbo and his gang. Once young halfing was even bold enough to throw a fire bottle at the party, not even an alchemist fire.
Party member who started the slaughter the night before went, “okay, I throw special alchemist fire from a splat book that doesn’t go out for 1 minute”. Flung it right into the mob of halflings, who ran in all directions looking for help for the fire that just wasn’t going out. This lit their shanty town on fire, which spread to the rest of the poor district. Poor peasant fire crews where overwhelmed the inferno as the initial fuel spread many fires. The wealthier part of the city was busy trying to secure the gates at the river that divided the city, and prevent any flames from spreading to the river docks. eventually the court wizards had to use spells to put out the inferno, but not before many deaths, and many many more becoming refugees. The kingdom they where going to help turned into an antagonistic force and the campaign died shortly there after.
Had a bad experience with this back when I was a mod on a Neverwinter nights server.
Past a certain point the guards would just be feeding them more experience and loot.
The hardest part was it was a heavy rp server but this dude had made a name for himself and it was all in character.
Fucking vampires.
When you hire the dragon to hunt down the adventures because they are killing the locals. This does put a smile on my face.
I like the idea that beyond the ad-hoc magic of PCs there exists some sort of magic that requires a lot more time investment to cast but is then more powerful to keep people in line in a sufficiently powerful city or other community.
Combining the whole "Stigma" thing, with the idea of pushing them back the further they go by sending more at them, bounties, and whatnot, sounds like the perfect "karma" system for DND
I prefer to make kingdoms have a pyramid like structure. On the outside of the city is training camps where soldiers can prepare as they level up or can be dispatched to do smaller tasks. However, as the party gets closer to the Capital higher level guards would be in place. I also like to have “Watchtowers” with high level guards near the edge of the kingdom where they can try to hold off invading forces while reinforcements from the inner cities come to help. I also like to make evacuation plans so the city can move as many civilians into the inner cities while guards from those inner cities can reinforce the outer cities. Most towns can be mostly evacuated over the party’s next couple short rests and having to fight a near equal or more powerful party in less than 48hours if they choose to go full murderhobo. If the campaign is them trying to take down an evil king and they end up committing more war crimes against the kings troops then the king would on anyone he was fighting, I also make the BBEG see just how much pain can happen from his plan and give the PCs a chance to take them to prison without a fight. If they refuse the king will see that they have truly lost their minds and fight you to stop you from doing any more harm, not to continue his plan. If they do take him in they will still probably fight him just with the rest of the city guards deciding they want to arrest the PCs more than the Evil King.
In Pathfinder, a town would be paying for guards as skilled/trained hirelings. Guarding is Hazardous, because you have to be ready for a fight. Hazardous tasks are paid 1gp/day per level squared. A level 1 guard makes 1gp/day. A level 5 one makes 25gp/day. A level 10 one makes 100gp/day. On a day where the guard has to fight instead of just keep watch, you have to pay them 3gp/day per level squared, because the task has just become Deadly; people often die in fights. The level 1 guard gets 3gp/day, the level 5 guard gets 75gp/day, the level 10 guard gets 300gp/day. All that gold adds up fairly quickly, even on merely hazardous wages. After a certain point the town is going to automate things with magic. I could hire a dozen extra guards for a year, or I could pay a mage to install permanent detect thoughts + alarms + magic mouth beacons that just shout out what someone is planning whenever they're about to break the law, or if they find someone whose mind is shielded against them. And if you're planning to murderhobo the town at level 10... well the town might prefer to send a message spell to a larger town, and spend a significant chunk of their cash on hand arranging to hire some level 15 counter-murderhobo specialists and have them teleported in, rather than give you that money. If you cause more trouble than it costs to hire a bigger fish, you're gonna get bigger fished. If the King of Town is only level 2 with 13hp then why hasn't he been toppled yet? Because his guards are NOT level 2, and have more than 13hp, and have class levels. And he pays them well to keep his head resting on top of his shoulders and his ass sitting in the big shiny chair.
The better option:
Ask the players to not murder hobo your cities
There's plenty of bandits and monsters
If theyre wanting more power fantasy, throw the occasional encounter of the classic 'bandit walks up to guy in power armour and demands their money'
Never had a murder hobo issue in game.
Players are meant to lean into the theme of a campaign, snd play characters suited to it.
Regular DnD game, my players wanna be heroes
When they dont wanna be heroes, we know that going in and go for an evil campaign
For world building reasons. Keep in mind, in history, kingdoms could produce armies of 10's of thousands
You can fireball a 30ft area, but the battleline would be a mile long
You don't need other lvl 20 adventurers to Spawn out of nowhere to compete. 10,000 guys with spears is a HUGE threat to anyone
"so, you robbed a store in a town of 60,000, and then killed the 3 arresting guards, then instead of leaving town, you went to bed at the local tavern."
"Ok. Cool decision. You wake up because the tavern is on fire, and there are a thousand archers or crossbowmen scattered throughout every alley and rooftop with a sightline. Every door and window is covered by at least 100 arrows. If you can think of a way to survive this, I'll let ya roll for it. Oh, but first, roll a wisdom check to see if you realize what's going on, or if you think the fire is accidental and wonder out to get immediately pin-cushioned."
I got so annoyed at my players when they walked into the jewler shop of a small town centre, and tried to steal a magic ring by punching the man in the face and running off, because they got mad at me for sending all of the gaurds in the centre at them.
I told them how many guards they saw when entering, and I sent them all at them because the jewler screamed for them after they left (they punched him once and ran off)
them were mad for doing crime and getting caught
I let them off eazy too, they got bail and that was about it
I watched this thinking this could give inspiration, halfway through I remembered that for the most part the regions the PCs are in are occupied and are henceforth martial law is in effect leading to clamp downs on resistance movements (this becomes the spark for a major rebellion in the regional capital) and I have custom soldiers that are exceedingly strong because they managed to beat one of the strongest factions
(Note: to start the campaign I had the PCs eliminate one of the occupier's captains that lead to them learning of the martial law)
"you step outside: make 10 wis saves as ten glyphs of warding cast hold person. The sidewalk turns into ice as a strong gust of wind sends you right to jail."