Dr.Douglas Geivett-Divine Hiddenness of God (On Guard Conference)
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Dr.Douglas Geivett is a philosophy lecturer at Biola University.
In this lecture he deals with the question of why God doesn't make His existence more obvious.
This event was a part of the On Guard Conference.
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This defense seems terrible, free-will is a complete non sequitur.
Thank you very much for this, this question has been one of my biggest problem, but now I got some hope about it.
Per this video, the default position should be to blind devotion to a loving God prior to and in absence of reasonable evidence. Yet, you insist that God desires to have a relationship with humans. If that is your position, I think that you may have a different definition of “relationship” compared to the majority of humanity. This becomes particularly problematic, if you are referring specifically to the Judeo-Christian God. Why? Because the stakes are so high. Non-belief, which is akin to rejection, will result in eternal torture. To make matters worse, God endows humans with a brain that utilizes reason and logic in every other aspect of life, even for our very survival. So using our brains in this capacity is worthy of damnation when it comes to our spiritual journey.
As humans, we cannot decide to believe something. Either you do or you don’t. If you have to have a default position of believing, then you have to cognitively disconnect in order to behave as if you believe, which is not the same thing as believing. One wonders if you are willing to disassociate from reason in this case, perhaps, you are willing to believe just about anything.
If maintaining free will is the argument against God’s reasonably revealing himself to his creation, I have to ask, “Was Saul of Tarsus’ free will violated when Jesus appeared to him in a vision on the Road to Damascus?” Maybe Saul had that special formula necessary for belief. He was willing to do ‘whatever it took’ to defend the Jewish God, even savagely stoning “heretics”. In Saul’s killing of these blasphemous followers of Jesus, he was not incorrect in his theology. There are plenty of examples of God ordering the extermination of the followers of false gods. So Jesus appears to Saul and redirects his ‘anything it takes’ energy into becoming the poster boy for the new belief system. So with that theory in place, not just anyone has the capacity for devotion to God. This leaves only the existence of predetermined followers of God. God knew who they are from the foundation of time. If you do not have the capacity, it is impossible for you to attain it, and your very brain will prevent such a transition.
On a side note: If Saul/Paul were really repentant, he should have directly turned himself into the authorities for being a party to multiple murders of innocent Christians and performed his entire ministry from behind bars, for even though, he could be forgiven for committing these crimes, he still should have demanded that he pay the price of his actions.
Finally, if you assert that non-believers have never authentically searched for God, you are claiming to know something that you cannot possibly know. In the case of people like myself, we searched diligently from a position of belief, even desperately wanting it to be true. The search itself is what resulted in the, eventual, rejection of the position.
seems like a very well thought out point of view... except the details. Hell isn't like Dante's inferno. it's exactly what atheists claim they want; existence without God. The problem comes with the realization that we like some of the things God provides, like light, breath, water, purpose, community, love, etc.
It's not a "get it right" kind of choice. We are all born with the knowledge of a greater power so we choose our preference. Either use our intellect to follow Him or reject Him. The debate over His existence is more about pride and justifying our actions. Think I'm crazy? Why ,with no concrete proofs or even solid evidence, do these "scientists" claim evolution is fact and the debate is over. By definition that isn't science, it's guessing. yet billions of dollars are spent and lives devoted to desperately try and prove someone doesn't exist.
I say, if you don't want to follow Him, just don't! He gave you that choice to make for yourself. Why is it important to convince other people to not follow Him? Honest question, I really don't understand that logic. The more Christian a society the more blessed that society is, even for those that choose not to follow Him.
Oh and Paul didn't kill anyone. He agreed that Stephen should be stoned but wasnt the one that did it. He was all about putting them in prison. look it up. it's in the book of Acts... just sayin....
+Kenneth Coleman
1. "Hell isn't like Dante's Inferno"
-- That may be true, but Dante did not create his description in a vacuum. The Bible describes Hell fairly graphically (unless you take this as metaphor).
(A) Hell is conscious torment.
Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
(B) Hell is eternal and irreversible.
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
2. "The problem comes with the realization that we like some of the things God provides, like light, breath, water, purpose, community, love, etc."
-- This is nothing but an assertion without any sort of proof. Remember, we are talking about, specifically, the Judeo-Christian God. So, by default, we do not believe in the extraordinary claims of the Bible. It is not the same thing as believing in a higher power or not. That is not the requirement, you have to believe that everyone is a born sinner deserving of eternal punishment that accepts the very specific conditions of Christianity. To conflate belief in a Higher Power and this would be an error.
3. "We are all born with the knowledge of a greater power so we choose our preference."
-- Again, this an unverifiable claim. Even if it were true, knowledge of a greater power is not the same thing as belief in original sin, and the requirements for absolution.
4. " Think I'm crazy? Why ,with no concrete proofs or even solid evidence, do these "scientists" claim evolution is fact and the debate is over. By definition that isn't science, it's guessing. yet billions of dollars are spent and lives devoted to desperately try and prove someone doesn't exist. "
-- There are many that would say that Evolution and Christianity are not incompatible. In fact, there are many evangelicals that fully accept change over time (Evolution, if you prefer). In my opinion, Evolution, could be 100% untrue, but it would not prove Judeo-Christianity to be true. They are not mutually exclusive. Evolution has nothing do to with the origin of the universe, it is a very useful process that works well with germ theory and other biological observations. If there are billions of dollars spent, it is probably to help prevent and cure diseases. I would like to see some examples of such expenditures that are being done to disprove God. That sounds like hyperbole, to me.
5. " I say, if you don't want to follow Him, just don't! He gave you that choice to make for yourself. Why is it important to convince other people to not follow Him? Honest question, I really don't understand that logic. The more Christian a society the more blessed that society is, even for those that choose not to follow Him. "
-- I am of the opinion that people should belief in true, verifiable things. Teaching people to fear eternal punishment or promise eternal bliss for certain beliefs or actions is nothing short of dishonest. A Muslim may ask you the same question, why do you try to convince people of their religion to change. Do they not get some benefit from believing, as well?
Are more Christian societies more blessed? Perhaps, but that may be more of a result of capitalism than religious choice. Do no disasters happen in Christian areas? Oklahoma and Missouri are 2 of the highest density evangelical areas that I know, but they get ravaged by tornadoes each and every year.
6. "Oh and Paul didn't kill anyone. He agreed that Stephen should be stoned but wasnt the one that did it. He was all about putting them in prison. look it up. it's in the book of Acts... just sayin...."
-- Whether Saul/Paul hurled a stone or not, he was a party to and involved in the stoning of Stephen and potentially other executions. Think of it this way, if a person robs a bank and a person gets killed in the process, the person is tried and convicted in the murder of that person. Even the getaway driver gets included in the charges as an accessory.
"... they all rushed at him (Stephen), dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. . . . And Saul was there, giving approval to his death" (Acts 7.57 to 8:1). -- Accessory, at the very least. He should have turned himself in and performed his entire ministry in prison.
+Kevin Vandorn I do really appreciate that you have done your homework. very well I might add. As I read through your responses I recognize that you are correct in the questions you pose. These are very good concerns. There is an answer, but it is a tough one to hash out, and in the end it would have to involve the words "by faith" sooner or later.
I don't like the doctrine of Hell. In my limited human mind it doesn't make sense and you're right! in the end it's either torment or bliss depending on your choice. I guess that's why you have Christian teachers dismissing it. It sounded good in my head but I guess I don't really have a happy answer for that.
You want a really good question? Why do Christian teachers that all pray for wisdom (as per James 1), not agree on every point of doctrine? Sometimes with drastically different views!
+Kenneth Coleman Thanks Kenneth, I also appreciate your honesty about faith being the only real platform to stand on. Many Christians get a little put off or even offended when faith is defined as believing without evidence (Hebrews 11:1,1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.) They will often insist that faith is confidence based upon evidence. But since, the topic of this video is Divine Hiddenness, it would seem that evidence is the one thing that is absent from the formula.
I wish you the best in your journey. I was at this very crossroads 20 years ago while I was preparing to become a minister. I remember actually mourning the loss of my faith and feeling despondent about the future. It eventually passed and I realized that everything was going to be OK.
+Kevin Vandorn just as a hypothetical, should the judgement seat turn out to be an actual event, would you be inclined to submit or defy?
I have had conversations with people that given the choice would chose to "give Him the back" as it were. (Not that I think anyone could, in His presence) maybe that's the rub...
As for my crossroads, I have been past that for many years now. I have had personal experiences that leave no room for doubt. it's like someone trying to convince me that my wife doesn't exist. I have more difficulty in relating with people that don't have that same knowledge.
I'm Glad it helped.But I got the best help from Philip Yancey's book 'Disappointment With God'
read it if you get a chance
You first read your engg books!
And what is Yancey's reponse to Gods Hideness?
I wonder... could the hidden aspect of God be on purpose because of free will? not because we wouldn't have an honest avenue to deny His existence, but rather that His actual presence would be so awesome and terrifying (think; created the universe with a word kind of power) that no one would love or worship Him as we would all be crippled in terror?!? Has He shown us just enough of Himself to allow for the possibility of a relationship?
+Kenneth Coleman I wonder? Could something not exist because it doesn't exist?
+Kenneth Coleman
Did Jesus violate Saul of Tarsus' free will when he revealed himself in a vision?
+Kevin Vandorn I don't think so. Saul was following God before said event. Even zealously trying to stop those that he thought were defaming God. His blinding and being given his sight back was merely a means of instruction for a man that was already dedicated to God. The point being that the God the Jews worshipped in the temple is the same God that hung on the cross. Paul made his decision to follow Him much earlier.
+Kenneth Coleman
I have to admit, this answer put me on tilt. Are you suggesting that the Old Testament Judaic traditions is just as valid as New Testament Christianity? If so, it was completely appropriate for every Jew to hunt down and kill anyone that could be viewed as blaspheming their religion. (Specifically, I am thinking of Elijah killing the priests of Baal.) Lucky Saul of Tarsus got a vision (for correction?). I guess it was a good thing that the rest of the Jewish leadership was not as proactively righteous as Saul or Jesus would have had to have personal visitations all over Judea.
Kevin Vandorn I would make a distinction between Orthodox Jewish tradition and those that follow the Torah. One can follow traditions without following God. Perhaps the other leaders were as zealous as Paul, but for selfish reasons and not for following God. Perhaps others did have conversion miracles. There are first person accounts of these kind of conversions happening right now in Muslim countries.