Don't do the "squeeze test"!
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2021
- Some videos came up on my feed showing various frames undergoing the "Squeeze Test".
I don't recommend this as it can unknowingly damage the laminate.
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This is kinda reminds me of when the teacher shouts at the whole class instead of naming and shaming the single kid.
Because everyone knows that although that one got caught, the rest did that too or were just about to
lol
This S-Works thumb test is the gift that keeps on giving. 😂😂😂
Sounds like our S.A. friend has voided his warranty. Can't wait to see the next instalment.
Will Specialized update their warranty terms and say 'squeeze tests are not covered by warranty'.
Legend has it Colgate are using an SL7 downtube in their next toothpaste tube advert.
Definitely not a good idea, top tubes were never designed to be sat on or clamped in a bike stand for that matter, a lot of frames get damaged this way.
@@Sebmondo Go check the newest GCN video (sponsored by Specialized) about biking in beautiful Bavaria while they present the new SL7. And they sit with their butt on the top tube! :D))))
Thanks Luescher for this video. I always screamed when someone did this in the last days.
Thanks, Raoul
This issue really did need clarification. Excellent post.
I paid $600 for my eye glasses. I don't understand why I can't sit on them without damaging them for that sort of money.
Expensive and fragile (in certain or all dimensions) are impossible.
I saw some of these videos coming up on my feed as well, and I *immediately* thought of your old video on not poking at your bike and making the damage worse.
Had a cannodale rush 10 frame out of the box and the carbon hadn't been cured or spots had a lack of resin . Parts of the tubes were like paper . Didn't even need to press it to see it had no structural strength . As I rotated the frame I saw the tube had "dents" in the paint I very lightly touched that part of the down tube and it felt like a piece of cloth moving . Yeah that frame was warrantied. That was the 3rd rush 10 frame the customer had as a warranty replacement .
He got his money back from canandale and bought a banshee frame instead .
WOW! They had some serious failures in their quality controls.
@@DaveCM it's why they are called crack and fails
Geez, Louise. What a freakin horror story!
My 2006 aluminum Rush SL was still made in the USA. The welds look pretty good. I bought it barely used for $100, 15 years after it was made. The parts were all original and the tires still had the molding tabs on them. Even the crappy Avid hydros still stopped!
It still rides just fine.
My store sells new Creakenfail/Crackinfails. I wouldn't buy one either.
Ive built carbon satellite components. I know about manufacturing quality. I'll never EVER buy a plastic bike.
I think it's much better to crack frame in a shop than riding. I understand complex structures can be weal locally and strong as a whole, but hey, this gets us to a point when just looking longer at a frame without changing sight could dent it!
if a frame is so fragile that it cracks when i press down on it with my thumb than why would i ever consider getting one
Why would you press down on it, though? After watching this video.
@@AnttiBrax Because DurianRider, an overconfident mumbling knob head who doesn't know shit about fuck, said being able to squeeze the down tube side walls means the frame is weak and not safe to ride.
@@AnttiBrax ... maybe by accident when riding it or when transporting your bike on/in a car ...
@@PaoloLuraschi Get a $100 travel case for your $6000 bike. 😀 I've never squeezed my down tube while riding and I have long-freaking-arms. Crashes are crashes, you're bike is toast anyway.
@@AnttiBraxWell, "by accident" I was not meaning a big crash ! Maybe by accident you just drop your bike while it is parked. The issue is that the damage may not be obvious like a dent on an aluminum frame. Do you put your bike in a case when you load it on the roof of your car ? If so this is fine, but I just don't like to take care of all this just to ride a bike for fun. I understand that a pro rider will have different priorities than me, no problem with that !
I hope they weren't customers bikes GC Proforamce was doing his squeeze tests on 😂😂😂😂😂
If so I'd be wanting a replacement frame
My first thought watching this
lol me too
Several years ago had a guy who tried getting his Bontrager wheels warrantied for damage...he finally admitted his buddy 'accidentally' squeezed his rim and broke it. They were raw finish rims, so wherever the rim was squeezed, it turned white in color at every spot that was squeezed (assume it was causing microfractures in the resin and delaminating it). After looking more carefully, there were at least a couple dozen spots where someone or some people squeezed the shit out of it. Makes you wonder what the thought process was in their heads... "Hey, this looks like it's damaging it, let's squeeze it a few more times to see!"
it's the bubble wrap effect
Like a wheel might be damaged by getting caught in a bridge deck, or a grate, or a car bumper, you mean?
I agree (to some degree). Other side of the story is that there are bike manufacturers that just push the limits too far to save the last few grams in weight...
I bet many normal bike frames (read: lower tier) are stronger (read more impact/accident proof) than their higher tier 'extra light' frames.
New Scott Spark use it as a selling point, top tube thinner than a credit card apparently.
Many frames in the past also had a cosmetic lair of 4k weave over the UD carbon. The frame was a little heavier but probably better suited for us recreational cyclists.
Save the thumb test for Coke cans - perfectly strong where they need to be, but when you dent them from stress loading the material inappropriately, it will only cost you the price of a Coke - and you'll still have and your sugar rush:))
High performance bikes for low performance people, the gains of these ultra light frames may benefit the elite athletes but for the average leisure group rider, it’s like taking an F1 car to the shops, I think most people need to address the fact they are slower isn’t the hardware but the extra effort in training and lifestyle faster riders have.
These frames for the average to good riders are ridiculous when comparing cost, durability , safety and real world gains😂😂😂
These frames aint light. Bikes from 5-10 years ago r lighter because these days the pro level bikes are optimized around 6.8 kg leaving heavy bikes for consumers
Also the ultra light frames used by professionals are one off's and are maintained by top tier mechanics. They tear down and inspect everything during maintenance and if something is even suspected of being compromised they replace it.
Correct. I see a lot of people in my area who ride 10k+ Pinnarello, Cervelos, SWorks etc who look like they're 40 lbs overweight and they plod along at 13 mph at 50 cadence. Its like they think obtaining speed is as simple as opening their wallet. As most of us here know, its mostly the rider.
Don’t get me wrong I would love to try one and I suppose loads of supercar owners are terrible drivers too but as long as they keep splashing the cash the goodness eventually filters down to us meer mortals so I guess dentists lawyers keep the research and development funds going by buying the best🤔🤔🤔😂
@@daryl4841 so? Does the fact that someone who enjoys his time riding a 10k bike annoy you?
Lol why don’t you sell your house and live in a rented apartment? No one needs a house to live after all; all you need is a small apartment to stay in. Its what you do in said space that matters, not the house itself after all, right?
Luescher great video and advice. The squeeze test is ridiculous and serves no purpose.
Bicycles, if they are going to be used, take a lot of knocks from all different directions. If a bicycle can't handle a simple squeeze then it should be much much cheaper. If your bicycle is so fragile you'd be better off belonging to a professional cycling team that handles all bike replacements for free. The average consumer can't afford this fragile bullshit.
Also consider that at the wall thickness these bike have, some flex may be better than being stiff and brittle. The ability to absorb some shock should be better than being so stiff that an impact would crack the tube. Thicker walls might ultimately be best, but at the penalty of weight which defeats some of carbon fiber's appeal.
Well fucking said .. We have been conned by the industry . They selling us crap for 5000 dollars .We pay thinking our safety is their priority yet the reality is all they want is our money . Big respect to Ernesto Colnago
@@zaheerkader7426 The bike is not designed for what you want it for. That means you should buy another type of bicycle.
The average consumer doesn't have this bike bro. If you want a tougher bike you get an aluminum gravel bike for knocking around and keep the carbon roadie for nice dry road rides.
@@Aholeintheozone Steel is real.
My “old school” Tarmac SL5 is so old school that it won’t even bend! Lol #savetherimbrake. Rimbrake for ever💪🏽😎
The SL7 is the only S-Works downtube I can compress a lot. The other tarmacs just resist because they are made for racing vs posing.
🤙
@@durianriders Raul,is a professional bike examiner,he has a lot more experience than you.I dont have a specialized i really dont like them,but what you are doing is just making people feel your a trouble maker and a control freak.I have to say the pro,s maybe have a class 1 bike compared to the public,and yes the specialized stuff is massively overpriced because of there success in major world tours,But honestly you go well over the top with your rants.
@@davemellor4697 somebody has to call Specialized out. Nobody has until now.
@@davemellor4697 specialised haven't had success in tours. Rather they have given bikes to teams & riders that have had success in tours.
All because of the pursuing of light weight, less material, thin wall, small size tube. It should have decent wall thickness. Our bike's down tube has 3 gussets inside.
No. All because of road disc brakes!
Isnt the point of this video that, even if it was thick, it's still not a good idea to go around applying loads that it's not designed for?
@Mr T ok, don’t learn anything 🤷🏽
@The Puertorican Cyclist I feel u🙌🏻 No squeezing any frame, yes, but those 300 grams comes in handy to ad some carbon layers in a frame, no doubt.
How is the thumb different from putting the bike in a bikestand? Yet the common conception is that it's okay to put in the bike on the bike stand. Would really love to hear an expert opinion on this. Thanks!
There's a you tuber called GCperformance who owns a bike shop somewhere in Florida USA. He posted a video yesterday about how he always squeezes the frames!
He was taking the piss out of durian rider.
@@danielmoorhouse6506 Oh, that guy, haven't heard anything from him recently. He needs a squeeze in a couple of delicate spots that might smarten him up.
Was that frame in question a Cannondale? My boss at a bike shop I used to work at did the same thing
Everything Raoul says about carbon bikes makes me determined never to buy another one. "Oh they work fine in ideal situations where there's no sharp edges or things to crash into at speed which will make them fail on the second impact"
How many real bike incidents caused by carbon failures do you really have heard of? All is said here in true in thoeory, but in practice carbon bike are super safe, IMHO
Thought the same way, until I got my lightweight aluminium frame.
Nice bike, but in no way more robust than a carbon frame.
Drop a carbon frame on a sharp edge, you might get a crack.
Drop an aluminum frame on a sharp edge, you will get a dent, that might buckle.
Same thing basically.
@@kilianortmann9979 I chose to make my wife a custom CF touring bike precisely for this reason. I'd seen too many of those fat-tube, thin-wall aluminum frames damaged, as well as carrying numerous work-hardening cracks near the welds. I chose CF not only because, done right, it's perfectly capable, but because it's so much simpler to DIY and far far safer than welding. Of course, I didn't try to make it weigh nothing by sticking with minimal structural strength at the cost of crush resistance. So far the only catastrophic failure on the thing were *aluminum* bar-ends that tore right in half when a car cut her off at an intersection and she dropped the bike.
Was looking at Wheels in a bike shop and feeling some mavic Wheels and pressed them and was supriced lol
You should send this video to gc performance.
I think DR may have written off his frame...
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣For the fans
I see new guidelines in Specialized shops. Warning stickers on all frames. DON'T TOUCH! :D)))))
amazing! you can't even touch your bike without breaking it! How far have we gone!
Not really race spec steel tubes are extremely thin in the center sections, seen many dented beyond use, and Alloy frames even back in 90's were getting extremely thin! My Yeti arc top tube could be dented by squeezing it with your fingers. Or worse my mates Cannondale caad had the brake lever tear through his top. If you want lighter frames it comes at risk no matter what the materials
Most household items are easy to break if you try. You can easily bend you laptop screen backwards, snap your glasses without really trying, etc. doesn’t mean they’re low quality or bad products.
You need to work on your comprehension skills. That's not what he said.
What about hanging up the bike on a bike rack (up a wall) with the top tube? Is it ok when i dampen the fixings with a cloth or smth?
seems like the mechanic saved someone from riding a death trap. If a top tube can split in half with a hard press of the thumb, no way its safe for actual riding. what the fuck.
As is the case with the top tube on many a CANYON bike. If you have damage, you can extend it to "beyond repair" if you stress it further.
Some bikes gets their stiffnes, strength etc. from the sides of the frame, so when pushing limits on how light the frame is going to be some areas only needs material to ”fill“ out the shape. Like the top of the top tube. However Basso for example put extra material there only for you to sit on during coffee stops, I think! I imagen a Canyon being flexy in that area and a 2015 Emonda too, still nice bikes…
@@mariusilerd9581 I hear you. Still stand by my point. These bikes aren't safe unless your a pro with a mechanic making sure everything is intact before every ride.
They fair much better in a pro peleton with replacements at hand yes! They also get abused more, Im fine with babying my bike so to speak, but it doesnt have a integrated handlebar nor the flex problems they talk about
Your organs can fail with a good press from the wrong angle. No way it’s safe for actual usage too.
Actually, your brain, based on the words it’s directing you to say, probably is long expired too .
So don't squeeze just use it and hope everything goes well. Sketchy😱
Guys, just listen to the Master !!! Congrats
this is why people like steel and alu bikes lol
But DR likes to squeeze his ride, his latest ride is called Natasha! Lol 🤣🤦♂️
pressing abit is ok,even after notice can squeeze welly must as well thrown the bike get a new one,life is short chose to have a quality
But what about sitting on the top tube at the lights? It's a staple of mine and went okay with a Canyon CF.
I see at that start you have a felt carbon frame. What is your opinion of felt frames have you split one open? Well made? Badly made?
If it can't survive a simple squeeze test, how is it even going to remotely survive a spill or crash?
or a bump in the road
Bruh a bump in a road is different, did u not get the point? Its not designed for the «thumb test» but they are designed for bumps on roads🤦🏻♂️ Smh
You gotta be like Joseph Gordon-Levitt in Premium Rush predicting all the scenarios in a split second so you don't ever crash or fall over.
Different kinds of impulses; you aren’t constantly applying pressure perpendicular to the direction of the fibers when you crash; you’re bumping the bike. Very different things from an engineering point of view
It won’t and that is why there are many carbon repair places around
If the frame breaks because of squeeze test that means you guys are paying too much money for stupid weak carbon bike 🤣
Emoticons are for idiots.
I can dent a Fender on many modern cars with my hands especially the aluminium ones. Does that mean that modern cars are inferior or just designed differently?
@@johnsmith1474 🤔😜
@John Smith 🤌🏻
Agree, that’s why I ride a titanium and steel bike. I have a cut tube of titanium, the same as the one on my bike. It’s less than 1mm think, probably 1/4? Anyway I challenge people to crush it… even though it’s an empty tube cut open at both ends nobody has been able to deform it with hand strength.
Bikes should not be made that fragile, you cant trust it anymore ffs, what if someone crazy wants to use his SL7 bike for more than 1-2 month maybe even 1-2 years?
My buddy had a brand new carbon gravel bike. Before it's very first ride he leaned it on his mail box. It fell over and cracked the top tube, beyond worth repairing.
I told him to buy a metal bike. Ive seen far more plastic bikes break than metal ones. Yeah, haha, it's stiffer alright.
Weight-optimized carbon frame designs always come at the expense of robustness to unexpected loading conditions. Whereas metal frames tend to be less-optimized for strength/weight, due to both their constant tube wall thickness around the circumference, and the fact that metals are isotropic and homogeneous. This gives them superior robustness to carbon, especially on the "thumb test".
Have you EVER hear about “double butted” or even “triplle butted” i can recall which frame was but i have seen aluminum bike frames with different wall thickness around the circumference...
yeah, metals are isotropic in books, treat and triple “but” a aluminum tube and do some test to see if it remains isotropic
@@pannnda1 There is also hydroforming, which is usually done on higher-end aluminum frames. This can lead to better optimized strength and rigidity in the desired direction, as well as improved frame aerodynamics. Double and triple butting results in more optimization as well, by making the midsection of tubes lighter. However, within the thin midsection, the tube will remain isotropic and equally rigid axially, circumferentially, and radially, with the associated strength and toughness in each direction also equal. So there is no weak plane that will lead to catastrophic failure in the event of an impact to the midsection, unlike carbon fiber, which is susceptible to shear failure between the plyes.
@@johnbarron4265 how hydroforming will help to have better aerodynamics? If you have 2 tubes both with the same shape and one made by hydro forming the aerodynamics of both tubes will be exactly the same
If you have a tube with x lenght and along its lenght the thickness of it changes the properties of the sections with more or less thickness will change aswell... also i have seen more trashed aluminum frames than carbon frames due light handlebars impacts (classic top tube) breaks hitting diagonal downtube etc
@@pannnda1 There are also more Toyota Camrys trashed in auto accidents every year than Ferraris. Does this mean Camrys are less durable than Ferraris?
LOL you can't really expect to be taken seriously with that anecdote about alu frame breakage.
@@johnbarron4265 sorry mate, alu double/triple butted frames aero optimized hydro-formed are almost expensive as carbon frame...
Wow. Just think if you accidently dropped your bike on a bike rack or it got hit by a car door? These bikes are so gentle it could delaminate or "micro" fracture? Pathetic use of a material then. Give me a "break".
Just don't do that. Or if you want a rough and tumble bike then get one.
These are optimized for riding.
@@galenkehler
I've never seen anyone dropping an expensive on purpose. Accidentally, yes. On purpose, never !
So saying "don't do that" won't help anyone.
@@galenkehler pretty sure I said "accidentally". Shit happens. So then is your bike potentially wrecked? Made for riding, just don't ding it. Too funny. How about don't sell junk. That would help.
Modern wings and fuselages of Airbus and Boeings are made from the same Toray carbon fibers. I hope the passengers are informed before boarding whether the plane had a rough landing in a storm before. Because then I would refuse boarding out of fear of microcracks. Suicide planes everywhere. :)
@@galenkehler kept in cotton wool until a 50kg super-athlete rides it in a race, it gets a complete strip-down & rebuild, then it gets put back in cotton wool, like a Faberge egg, you mean? Thats the dictionary definition of masturbation.
Let me get my old drum out and start bagging. 😄
Here is another reason I ride a titanium bike. I have a cut tube of titanium, the same as the one on the top tube of my bike. It’s less than 1mm think, probably 1/2? Anyway I challenge people to crush it… even though it’s an empty tube cut open at both ends nobody has been able to deform it with hand strength.
Amen.
Well... Had 3 titanium bikes from well known brands. All three developed crack on the bottom of down tube/head tube junction. Frames warrantied but not looking for titanium since. Maybe in the future
@@JanKowalski-pe9lo that sounds a little unlikely?
@@JanKowalski-pe9lo the same brand? Or different each time? If it’s the same brand then it’s likely to be an issue with their manufacturing. I personally know 18 other people in my area who own titanium bikes and in the past 5 years non have had any issues. And one of the bikes is 15 years old at least.
@@reginaldscot165 Different... Yeah I was surprised. Maybe they were welded by the same welder xD. Last brand let me keep damaged frame so ots hanging in my shed as a prop :P.
Do this means that it’s save with a aluminium MTB frame than carbon. I am thinking if a rock is hitting the frame when falling.
Then,whilst this is true,it is absurd that very expensive bike frames are so vulnerable to damage. Given that the people who can afford top end bikes are generally (apart from race teams) overweight,if only by a few Kg. Not riding at their full potential and in a great many cases not even sitting properly on the bike...Therefore certainly no reason to be riding a frame shaved down to a minimum amount of material,in order to save a few hundred grams...designed for athletes performing at a very high level when seconds count. Vast majority of people riding bikes average the same speed whether on a $500 bike or $10,000 bike!!! Yes I do choose to ride top end kit,so just saying!
Agree. Most people buy based on other (percieved) qualities than those relevant to them and their use. At least a seriously flawed weitghting of them. For me it is far more important that a bike survives falling down at a cafe stop, or getting slammed by the door on my way out of the house, or traveling on a roof rack on a car, than those 20 extra grams of weight.
hello - you appear to know lot. can you do please do a vlog on best carbon wheels that can take steep descents & wet conditions. you mentioned 180 degrees as the key level for resin weakening. great if you can provide options from your testing without creating fear, uncertainty & doubt
If your bike cannot survive a thumb test, do u really want to ride it? This sounds silly to me.
If you pushed one of your spokes you could bend it. Does that mean you don’t feel safe riding your wheels?
if frame cant handle thumb test then how it can handle normal use?
You can break an egg one way fire to and not another direction easily, that's a sort of way a CF frame is.
My Colnago Extreme Power enjoys the squeeze test
I have seen these crack at the top tube from this type of force.
If this progresses, there’ll be a day we’d have “do not ride” sticker on a bike. “max. load 300W, do not race”
Cyclists truly are the stupidest of breed... This comment section is my proof.
I guess the Durianriders Sworks Sl7 is now considered a compromised frame with the amount of times he has shown on video him squeezing that frame.
Yep, warranty is gone. That frame is toast and heading for recycling (or eBay). :D))
Yep I wonder if the reason why it is so flexible is because he has been squishing it so much. I wonder if he also tests avocados the same way, this one is bad, this one is bad.
@@LucasHynar yeah his frame certainly seems to have a lot more flex compared to other peoples “squish test” on the SL7. He may be the reason why all the avocados at the supermarket are always bad haha
Like avacados - they bruise easily when squeezed on the side.
Ref: Avacados Australia - Avocado Ripening and Handling - A Video Guide for Retailers
video: ua-cam.com/video/zZZW7YmXak8/v-deo.html
On behalf of SA and Adelaide, would like to express regrets on sending out misleading content that needed correcting. Thanks Raoul.
So Specialized are charging how much for a chinese made carbon frame that cant handle being squeezed for Tiktok but somehow is meant to handle a 120kg fat keto barrister hurtling down Greenhill road over the potholes no probs?
Specialized should do a recall on that bike!!
Oh wait...
@Mr T The point being made is not about the possibility of being able to squeeze the tubes but the lack of awareness that it best not too try it. I agree with you that it's not necessarily a bad thing but some see it as poor build quality.
So you ARE saying that the tarmac is weak/flimsy since its so thin you can just press down on it and ruin the carbon.
They want people to buy expensive disc brakes bikes, but at the same time, they are trying to keep the weight low. The only way to do that, is to shave material from the frame. In pursuit of profit, they jeopardize people's safety.
Definitely, less than ideal! :)
Does that apply to rims too ?
Never use your thumb. I always bring a ball peen hammer with me to the bike shop to test their floor stock 🔨
Regardless of all Raul - surely, if all that you need to damage carbon frame is to press on a tube with your thumb - there's something fundamentally wrong with its design!
My old first generation Trek Madone 9 was that way in the centre of the down tube. Totally understandable, strong where needed, weaker where not, but like with earo yawn angles, frames aren't always loaded structurally in an ideal laboratory ways. Long story short, I am now way beyond carbon.
My new titanium frame passes all thumb tests! 😜
Surely, if all that one needs is a stupid video like that to cause you to make such an ignorant statement - there’s something fundamentally wrong with your education system.
Congratulations! 🤙
That was definitely the right choice-one of the best materials to build a bike!
Would never go back to carbon for that few grams of weight saving....
@@87togabito whatever mate. Suit yourself. I'm not a pro, never was, never will be. No need for a bike like that. And I stand by my original comment anyways. If all that one needs to cause permanent damage to the frame is to squeeze it with a thumb nail - then the design is just flawed and you won't convince me otherwise. The frame is never only getting loaded in the exact way designers assumed it would. There's transport, cleaning, maintenance, occasional accidental bump or kick. Don't tell me that it's ok to design a frame which is soooo "optimised" that doesn't have structural redundancy to take such instances. Maybe, but it's a huge maybe - for pros - but never for general public! But given that UCI insists that each piece of kit they race on must be commercially available, then it's just outright wrong.
What is achieved with a “squeeze test”? So what if the frame flexes? Is that necessarily good or bad? Of what benefit is such a “test?”
Would sitting on the top tube while waiting at red lights damage the carbon? I'm a 110kg rider.
It depends on how the bike is made, however I would not recommend that on a light frame.
@@LuescherTeknik Thank you, I feel more comfortable going for the heavier domane, crossing my fingers trek didn't forget some resin somewhere.
I get anybody that expended thousands on a frame will defend it, but I will expect the most essential structural component of my bike, that takes the most forces and abuse, be strong so it can't be destroyed by my bare hands.
People just have misconceptions and not the good expectations for high end bike. They think that if I buy a very expensive carbon bike it should withstand everything. Sorry but, no. It’s like :" Ho I’ll buy a F1 car and give a little kick on the shaft that connect the wheel to the direction, it should be ok." But, yes the car cost many thousands and can go to 200km/h but if you put stress on a part that is not meant to have this kind of force (Let’s say radial for vs longitudinal to the axel force) you can easily damage it. 10k bike are F1, it’s not for everyone. So no, you should not lean the frame direct on a post or anything. If you can’t accept that you should take care of it like porcelain, buy something else. And yes the carbon have been optimized for strength in certain direction and lightweight. It’s like a cable/suspended bridge, it’s design with cable who are weak in compression but strong as hell in tension, same idea here with carbon. Pro’s ride thousand of km on their bike, and they are reliable, but yes, it must be look after on a very regular basis. One again if you don’t want to, buy something else, it's not the good product for you. Carbon is not homogeneous material, it’s made from layers of carbon and resin, so when you push on them some layers need to expand more than other (that’s how curvature works, further from the center = more expansion needed) what you think will happen if they are glued together? The bond will break between the layer and cause micro de-lamination. Maybe it will not change anything, but at this price I’ll personally wouldn’t risk it. So don’t squeeze it, it’s not relevant and not so good for the carbon.
That seals the deal for me. I'm getting an aluminum bike. 😧
Or titanium or steel. These new carbon frames are being made so thin to make up for the added weight of disk brakes(flack incoming). Also average riders are probably a lot harder on there bikes than pros. Because pros just replace their bikes like we change underwear lol. Us regular folks are lucky if we replace our bikes every couple of years.
@@jjmoto65 Like me, who is still riding my 1978 Raleigh SuperCourse! 🤣🤣🤣
@@MrLuigi-oi7gm no shame in riding that. Actually it is a testament to how well it was constructed.
@@jjmoto65 👍😀
I have an opinion somewhat related to the frame flex problem. The UCI banded the Supertuck which put most people into a social uproar. The main reason people thought was that you could loose control and not be able to recover and therefore crash. But the UCI also have to inspect approve and put their sticker on bikes that are allowed to be used in races. Could it also be true that in their testing they think that putting forces on the frame in certain locations could break the frame while riding because these carbon frames are only designed and made to take the loads of a rider being properly positioned on the contact points, being saddle, bars, and pedals? The UCI rule about the Supertuck makes more since to me now.
Yes. I totally agree. Imagine if a rider goes over a bump and comes down on the top tube with his weight. Such shearing forces could be generated and start to delaminate the top tube and result in the rider losing control. I don't know what happened to Fabio Jacob in the 2023 TdF, but his bike split on the top tube, no damage to the wheels.
If the frame cracked because you squeezed it , congratulations ! You bought a poo sandwich! Do not pass begin, Do not collect 200!
In for the comments, maybe ronny was right @harley 🤣
Ive eaten my weight in popcorn this last week haha.
It would be wonderful to have an explanation from someone like yourself as to why it doesn't matter if you 'can' press in to the carbon.
It does matter. Doesn't mean you should, and particularly not if there is damage/imperfections (and there always could be).
Not designed to take on axis point loads is what I got from this.
There are various ways in which a force can act on a material:
tension - a pulling force
compression - a pushing force
bending - forces at an angle to the material
torsion - a twisting force
shear - forces acting across the material
A material can have very high strength in one type of loading, and very poor strength in another.
A cable has excellent tensile strength, but doesn't resist compression.
Ceramics generally have very high compressive strength, but very low tensile strength.
Spoked wheels need to be properly tensioned so that the spokes are kept in tension and are not subject to compression (and the rapid stress cycling that comes along with the compressive loading of spokes).
A structure (in this case a bicycle frame), is designed to resist certain forces. The same is true for any other structure: bridges, buildings, bones, etc. The ability of a structure to withstand forces outside its design spec is mostly good luck, but the more you optimise and reduce the weight, generally the less likelihood there is you'll be lucky. When you remove material you generally are weakening the structure, with regards to the ability to resist a certain force in a certain direction.
That a frame can be damaged by very small forces outside of its design spec is far from ideal, it makes the frame delicate and easily damaged.
That said, the fact that a frame can be easily damaged in this way doesn't mean that it isn't safe and adequately strong for it's intended purpose (when undamaged) just that it's easily damaged by forces it wasn't designed to withstand.
This is a mostly unavoidable on ultra-light components where you're looking to shave every possible gram.
I thumb tested my alloy bike, it passed the test with flying colours.
a dent at the worst on aluminum tube
Do it to the middle bit of a modern "almost as light as carbon" alu bike toptube, and you will dent it. Seen it puncture on point-loads.
So did my Titanium frame.
How's your thumb 😀
Hopefully these same people will start doing a head test with steel frames.
If squeezing by hand can damage a fkin frame then that shit shouldn't be called a bike frame
If bicycle frame are made so fkn thin that they are splitting from a thump pressing into them, we need to go back to a more solid and light enough at the same time. Fuck big corporations, selling us shit!
i had squeez my frame just one or two times on the top tube, and one time on the down tube. is that catastrophic ? Definetely never again...
Cheers from Belgium.
I would worry unless you it with a death grip. Obviously it's not wise but there's squeezing and squeezing. You could get your frame scanned if you are concerned.
@@glennoc8585 Thank's Glenn. Last time, i don't press it super hard, so a bit hard but just with one hand. Your advice ?
While this video may be technically correct, its not very reassuring is it? I get it that carbon is arranged to provide strength in a particular direction, but forces on a bike frame are seldom so simple. I would like to see some lateral stiffness in the body of the tube.
I need your tee! where do you get those
I have them for sale at my Teespring store.
Tried it on both of my carbon frames. Neither budge even a millimeter pressed as hard as possble in any area.
I said don't ;)
I know someone who has a broken Storch frame. Perhaps suitable for the Colin Chapman school of design.
He keeps it clipped on the wall of his ( one of several) garages. He is one of the major shareholders in UK's biggest bike company, Brompton and first orig director - Richard has written a book called 'The Goode Life' .. he imports aeroplanes!
I agree , less than ideal
So basically what gravel rocks do to frames
Durainrider is making is SL7 flex more and more Everytime he does that. Next video of his I hope it breaks 🤣.
Alloy frame still the best
One finger press is too much to take? Where is the stiffness for?
The stiffness is in the other direction, think of it like an egg or an empty toilet roll or something similar, those items are very easy to crack/deform when squeezing from the side, from top to bottom though they are much stronger/stiffer, much harder to crack an egg from top to bottom than side to side. So frametubes are much, much, much stronger in loads between headset and bottom bracket / seat tube, and ofcourse the triangle that the frame creates adds a ton of stiffness.
Look at paper bridges that some engineering school creates for competition, who can create the stronges bridge out of a given set of paper, i saw one that could withstand over 500kg (search for "paper bridge"). So that bridge is incredible strong in the direction that it was design to take the load but you could still destroy it with your finger & sideload.
So yeah, just because something seem weak in one direction doesn't mean it is weak in all direction, it totally depends on geometry & what type & what direction of the load it is designed for
I agree... but for a bike that is going to receive regular real world use toilet paper and eggs might not be the model. Also TP and eggs are at a very different price point.
@@cjeesewalburge5820 and egg shell is meant to protect the unborn chick from very real world dangers. Your point?
The bike is designed to take the damages it will see. A stupid finger frame press, isn’t one of that.
You can’t design for stupidity.
Pass this on to Durrianrider 😂
Geez if the frame is that delicate, don't even think about racing on it. " Squeezing it damages it" , pathetic.
Current prepreg carbon bikes are too weak and disposable with wack tolerances rendering them creaky and sometimes unsafe. Please more affordable Ti bikes (efficient/automated production lines and volume). Nearly every carbon frame I’ve owned has eventually had to be warranted once ridden hard.
pls dont squeeze my bike you will break it
😂💦
Finally, some common sense!
haha, he called him a butt splice
I almost snapped my thumb off trying to squeeze my 2013 tcr
I cant believe there are people stupid enough to do this because you tube celebrities are spamming it about! .
Great Post Mr Lt.
Maybe the only reason why that muppets frame is so flexy and depressed so much, is that he has already done it so many times to already fundamentally damage the laminate layers/bonds.
Maybe its actually just a thin walled piece of crap 😱
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to get that one !
But frankly, is it logical to make bike tubes that thin considering the average user behaviors and intended use ?
No its not logical. Which follows tradition, this is the same bike industry that used to put 53/39 on all bikes, and tiny skinny rock hard tires. Stuff that is not appropriate for 99% of people.
I think its this obsession with lightness that's driving this ,even though aero beats lightness unless you commute up a mountain daily.
It is logical. If it instantly delaminates and breaks apart like Raoul said about the Stork frame then... it was improper handling and a new frame has to be purchased. Kaching! In that case there is no warranty due to customer abuse.
The concept is that larger tubes with thinner walls are stronger than smaller tubes with thicker walls. The larger tube can stand more forces. Much the same as Connandale in the past with their huge alloy downtube. It was thinner than other bikes
Diamond frame/ upright bikes are not logical.
I'll stick with alloy
In other words, any impact to any part of a carbon bike, and it goes to scrap.
What is the thumb test supposed to indicate? Is it the equivalent of kicking a tire on a car, that is, nothing is proved by it?
I could break my glasses anytime I wanted with basically 0 effort. The same is true of most household items. Carbon bike frames rarely fail during normal use, the fact they can be damaged if you go out of your way to do so isn’t surprising and isn’t a problem.
You can try to squeeze the tube of a Ti frame and all you would be doing is hurting your thumb. The fact that one can damage a CFRP frame by just pressing it, speaks volumes about the resilience of the material and the unsuitability of it as a structural material. Accidents happen all the time, your bike can fall over while leaning against a wall at the cafe, or you might have a crash, if this happens, you will need to get it checked out by someone like Luscher. You wouldn't need to do that with a metal frame, even the thin walled steel frames.
@@shannondeckard8587 This had very little to do with the material. A carbon frame that weighed the same as a steel frame, and used the same thin tube geometries, would be just as resistant to crushing (if not stronger). Or alternatively, a steel frame as light, and shaped the same as a carbon frame, would bend like a tin can. There have been plenty of lightweight aluminium frames that could easily be flexed and dented by hand.
@@johnm91326 So what you are essentially saying is that for CFRP frame to be as resilient as a metal frame, it has to be as thick and heavy as a metal frame. Which negates any weight advantage that CFRP affords. You would be hard pressed to be bend a Titanium frame with the same tube thickness as that of a thin walled CFRP frame IMO.
@@shannondeckard8587 I’m more just pointing out narrow, thick walled tubes are inherently more resilient to crushing. The freedom carbon gives you in shaping is one of its biggest advantages. Take that away and it will still outperform metal, but it’s isn’t magical.
Obviously the titanium frame of the same wall thickness would be harder to bend, it would weigh literally 3x as much. Carbon is better, but not 3x better (all else being equal). If you mean tube diameter, then it would entirely depend on the layup and wall thicknesses.
@@johnm91326 My 2003 Merlin Cyrene weighs just 7.5kg wet i.e. with a saddle bag (with a multitool, two tyre levers, an inner tube), a full bottle of water, a Cycliq fly 12 front and fly 6 rear dashcams, an Omata one computer. It's weight dry is about a kilo less. That is almost the same as most CFRP bikes on sale now and you'd find it hard to put a dent into any of it's tubes even if you tried. I have swapped out it's original Reynolds Ouzo pro CFRP fork with one made of Ti. So I would question how a Ti frame would (as you say) weigh three times as much as a CFRP frame that is made to same strength. The problem with CFRP is that when it is flexed beyond it's parameters, it shatters and shears off. Metals don't do that due to their ductibility.
u guys sit on toptube?
Thank you for bringing some reason to this debate!
Just take a Toilet Paper Roll and kompress it. That is layer separation.
Hmm. So if a "thumb test" can damage a frame, then, really, they're so fragile that you need a new frame after just about any crash at all, or any unexpected rough handling where something might have bumped the fragile tube. This is another way of saying they're worthless or else "I work for Specialized".
The most satisfying "less than ideal" so far