I enjoyed this talk, despite not agreeing with all of it. It blows my mind some people would rather watch the same episode of 'Friends' for the 10th time than consume content such as this.
You are both so very right about the new wealth being about controlling your time and place. As soon as I had complete control over my time - I realized on a deep level that I was, at that moment, effectively as rich as I would ever be. I had already crossed the most important line. My spend rate at that time was very very low but it didn't matter. I was deeply free. I was emotionally healthy. That is wealth. And bitcoin helps in both aspects.
I think people are missing what he meant when he talked about the selfish poor man. He talked more about the mindset than the actual balance in your bank account. If you have poor mindset and all you do is pushing buttons in Mcdolands, You are not solving no problem and not adding value to the world. But if you have the mindset of a rich person, you help the world to develop and grow along with you.
I'm probably more conservative than Mark is but his framing is jacked up when it comes to his McDonald's analogy and providing value in the world. To follow his example my dad wasn't around so we didn't have a lawn mower but there were certainly guys on the street corner selling drugs and I could have gone to work for them to make money so that I could have a bike. And Mark how much value is the Congolese warlord providing? How much value are those little kids digging Cobalt out of the ground so that you can have a laptop computer providing? Do you think they're getting fair value? You don't think those kids are providing any value? Maybe those kids should improve their skills? Like I said I'm probably way more conservative than Mark is but even my unsympathetic ass can see that some people are stuck in some pretty bad situations and simple clever analogies that sound good on a podcast don't necessarily fit in the real world.
Mark is the first guy I started listening to when I decided to pursue a financial education. I respect him very much, hes always been generous with me. Great to see him on the show!! Thanks for the orange pill Mark and Market Disruptors
Mark Moss trying to blanketly claim poor people are selfish is insane. What a disastrous way to frame an argument. Then he regularly tries to change the framing. That was super cringe. Really thought this guy was smarter. He literally gives an example of Africans living under an oppressive ruler who cannot store wealth because it keeps getting stolen from them. Are they selfish? Of course not. Some people are victims of their circumstance and are dealt a bad hand.
This is a vitally important discussion. Although Mark comes at it from a 'white male in a bubble' perspective and skips over all the disadvantages poor people of EVERY color face, his explanation of how the game works and how to win at it is CRUCIAL! Thanks to Peter and the team for bringing us this!
Mark has interesting views that not many others really go into depth on. I may not agree with some of the conclusions he draws, but do appreciate the thought process and exercises behind getting to those conclusions - that's what I find valuable when I listen to Mark. Diversity in thought is critical. Great pod WBD, and looking forward to when you have Mark on again.
Two quick things: 1.) According to this guy’s philosophy, a hedge fund manager benefits society more and is less selfish than a typical school teacher. Utter nonsense. 2.) In his story about working hard mowing lawns to buy his bike, he conveniently breezed over the fact that his dad had a lawn mower. He was the beneficiary of some privilege. Some kid might not have a dad with a lawn mower - or a dad at all. That doesn’t make the kid lazy or stupid. He’s just less fortunate. Bitcoiners often wonder why regular folks sometimes find them distasteful. This guy is example A - Z. Glad Peter pushed back on him.
Also casually breezed past the job(s) he was given by his dad / friend’s dad. I like some of his framing of “how to play the game” but the way he makes broad assumptions, ignores his own privilege / advantages, and hand waves important details and legitimate questions from Peter is pretty disingenuous
We get paid for what we can negotiate. Your value is only one part of this. I make more than most doctors outside of the west. I do not provide more value with my office job than a doctor saving lives. I make more than the guy fixing my car but he is way more valuable to many more people.
You get paid more than most doctors outside of the West in your office job because you're providing a requisite amount of value to SOMEone, not EVERYone. In terms of overall value to a community of people, I agree with you and hardly think it can be argued that an office worker provides more value. That said, the economic system in the US is set up to prioritize the individual, not the overall community, which is why wealth disparity is now at its worst level since the period immediately following the Great Depression.
@@jcantonelli1Why is “wealth disparity” a bad thing? Is a skinny man harmed by the body builder, or the couch potato harmed by the marathon runner? As with health, wealth is not a zero-sum hame.
Moss makes the mistake of applying what should be (value-theory of wages) to what actually happens in real life. It is a careless and unthinking analysis of society, based on his own foundations of 'I mowed lawns to make my first buck.' Intellectually lazy.
52:30 he could get a one mil loan and make a business that make him $300k /year , in monopoly game not real life. This theoretical ideas won't apply in real life, lets be serious.
Haha yeah I thought the same thing. What a find! Maybe if you started Trader Joe’s or Starbucks or invented the baby changing table. Not most small businesses
You can’t compare value creation as a problem solving entrepreneur to charitable giving - charities don’t solve problems in the long run. They justify their existence by addressing symptoms, not causes.
Mark's thinking is like hopping off of Gestalt's or derivatives of potentially fallible processes for the productive dividend and using those as momentum ahead. Interesting.
Providing value does not equal generosity. The most selfless person I know is broke. He's not the best with money but he helps sacrificially. I like the free market but this is a nonsense argument gor it.
IMO, if someone (typically a parent) “unselfishly donates” their assets to their adult children to the point that they their-self will no longer be financially independent in their later years, then they are indeed acting in a selfish manor. They have also created a dependent adult child.
"let's take out the incentive, we can get into what's in the heart of man." also, "if you're broke, you're selfish." of which, selfishness is an incentive and a matter of the heart.
You always bring amazing content Pete Ty. However, Mark is a poser that copies influencers content and jumbles it all together into his regurgitated terrible presentations. He’s obviously just in this for vies not a real bitcoiner
I believe the best characteristic of your show is that you argue with the guests a little, and the guests have the confidence to push back. Challenging ideas in open debate provides so much more insight than two guys stroking each other’s ego in blissful agreement.
A gold mine discussion: 1:07:38 Three types of capital: Financial, mental and relationship capital. 1:07:05 Three ways to grow a business: More clients, more product sales and more frequency of buying those products.
Main problem I see with a 10% debt load is you are setting yourself up to have a lot of your corn being held by a third party. Something like 2-3% is more in my comfort zone. But even then only if the third party is trustworthy. Who are you all trusting to back your BTC loans here and now in 2024? I'm very curious.
'So what if you lose 10% if your getting an asset that you want' but if you are getting rekt on a draw down you are going to have a choice to add margin or get called. If you start adding more collateral and the dip runs deeper, now you are potentially losing more than 10%. Worth pointing out.
I'm trusting no one. BTC-collateralized loans should be a non-starter for anyone as long as giving up full custody of the BTC is required. The financial infrastructure needed to do this in a way that works in the interests of both lenders AND borrowers does not exist in 2024, at least AFAIK.
Yes! Personally, I have no interest in playing the debt games with bitcoin. Higher gains be damned, hold your asset and sleep well. If you must gamble your wealth for higher risk endeavors, buy some shitcoins. At least with those, you can still hold the coins in cold storage...
No one offers places to do this.. BlockFi was one, but they're bankrupt now. I need to hear more details on how this works but no one ever provides it.
Good on you Peter, for not letting this chap get away with an intellectually flawed and insensitive, to say the least, "if you're broke, it kinda means you're selfish' nonsense. The guy obviously has a limited world view. Tell that to single mothers, with multiple jobs, trying to provide for a family. 'You are broke and selfish' sounds very condescending. I hope he learned something and uses that newly found insight to adjust his pitch. Next guest pls.
Agreed. The few good points in this episode were Peter’s story about the factory and the few times Mark wasn’t on a sales pitch. Not sure I believe him in general about his 8 figures and then starting over from scratch… seems suspect
Of course single mothers don’t fall under the umbrella Mark is addressing. I think your argument is avoiding what he is talking about. I have been both poor and a millionaire. I know exactly what he is saying, and I totally agree. He isn’t being mean. It’s a mental attitude and reality.
There are too many single mothers in the first place - this is societal problem. Also don't believe he was talking about people with kids as a whole, or those with two jobs, so you're cherry picking. It was a reference to the (younger) worker/adult who is capable of a lot more but chooses to not gain more skills in a time where you can literally learn any skill you want today, on the internet. Perfectly capable people are choosing highly distractive time drains like playing video games for hours a day, scrolling social apps, instead of using their brains to be become productive in their lives, and for humanity. Sure, he could rephrase his words to fit the pc narrative but because of his wording, we're having this conversation about it.
Those who complain about their situation are selfish. Everybody has the self will to be successful no matter where you have come from. Broke people don't understand that capitalism is all about solving the issues of society and not transactional work that they programmed to believe in. Everyone is responsible to change their programming and question how they became broke in the first place.
the "poor is greedy" analogy is so simplistic, hard to see this moss guy as a smart guy, peter was dead on calling him on it with moss analogy, does the mcdonalds employee is being "generous" by proxy for mcdonalds owners?? what about if I hire 10 people to keep helping fieinds move??, does the people I hired are being generous for me?? such a poorly thought analogy
I don't think he's saying that individual "poor" people are greedy, only a generalization of the aggregate poor. I certainly understand that we have different starting points and luck throughout life.
There are humans that live in parts of the world that are content with doing absolutely nothing with their lives. Not even dig ditches, nothing. But they surely desire to have the life and things other people work for. Sounds selfish to me.
The grandkids will probably just run down the real estate with parties and fight over who owns how much of it. Fourth turning. Better plan for your own life, and if there are leftovers, nice for the next generations. May sound selfish and negative, but it isn‘t.
Like poor people who are expending all of their physical and intellectual energy just to remain housed, clothed, and fed have the capacity to just switch their skill set or have $40k to plunk down on Mark’s “Mastermind” group. But Mark think’s they’re just “lazy”. What ridiculous entitlement.
Loved how you didn’t let him get away that. Mark has a very ‘Republican politician’ tendency to try to talk fast and more to push a personal point. It comes off as politically biased and highly opinionated on a generic political theme. That’s why I have a hard time wanting to listen to him. Note: I’m not a fan of either political side whatsoever. Dislike both in many ways.
Why is this guy featured so often on WBD? He brings nothing new or interesting to the table, and his talking points are overly-scripted and extremely reductive. Also, at least in the US, if you get liquidated then you're responsible for capital gains taxes on the loan proceeds. He didn't wind up avoiding the very thing that motivated him to take the loan in the first place!
Think we need to pull on this thread a bit more. I think many understand the game but are tired of playing because of the stealing of the system and those that have built their place within the game. I see many millennials and GenZ saying we will no longer play your game and this is what we think of it. Most would be happy to play a fair,equal and un rigged game where the rules can’t be changed to benefit a select few. This also goes back to education and what we are not taught in schools. Bitcoin is a tool that can bring more equality and fairness to those that have previously not been able to climb the ladder quick enough but is being adopted by those again with financial privilege. I fear it’s loosing a bit of its philosophical cause and is why grass roots initiatives in places like Africa, South America and parts of Asia are so important and should get more attention and are of vital importance. Bitcoin is more than just another asset in your portfolio but more your,mine and our kids and their kids future
Which institutions offer the ability to borrow against your Bitcoin? They’re talking about it like it’s commonplace, so curious what resources are available.
Mark can be polarizing when taken at a high level. He said it well in the last two minutes. There are many layers of minutia to the topics touched on. He provides great thought topics that take more than a few minutes to truly deep dive into. It's the nuggets of thought that are where eyes open, not necessarily the words put to them. And, yes, words have meaning and I get that. It is also difficult to put/recall the right words to convey the thought in an interview sometimes. This was a great interview with good people in the Bitcoin and thought/life/experience community.
This interview made me realize how unmature it was of me to want to reach $10m so that I can retire. What is infinitely better is to work right now on providing value to the world while having a blast. Bitcoin can help me secure my financial future and uncuff my hands so that I can do what I was meant to do. Fuck retirement! Welcome fulfilment!
An individual’s net worth is the balance of what they have produced and conserved minus what they have consumed. People with a negative net worth, or that are on the dole, have taken more from society than they have contributed. I agree with Mark in that they are the selfish/greedy ones.
To add value= giving more value than you receive. Selfish people never give more value than they recieve. People that create wealth for themselves give more value than they receive. So stop being butt hurt because truth, facts and reality dont ever care about your feelings..
That was the most round about way of saying we all have access to knowledge so why are you unkowledgable. That thought is both narrow and self isolating. I'll listen to the rest though. Thanks Fellas
Mark is painfully smarter than Peter, as are most of his guests. That being said, it is important to see this, as most of these conversations in real life will happen between similar IQ gaps.
13:00 disagree you can be a therapist or a teacher and you arent making a lot of money but you are providing a beneficial service and its very selfless. An investor on the other hand could be a con artist with millions and very selfish
The hard work you, Danny, and your team do is so advanced, but perfectly timely vitally important that most will not get it...yet. and I love the fact that yall keep going for the betterment of humanity. The work you and your team spends countless hours upon...is the legacy of you and your teams gift to humanity...good on you bro
Mark is right people are greedy and selfish, some for money and some for love/praise. We all do things for incentives and to argue something else is absolutely ridiculous.
The guy who only worked for his fathers company, was born with a silver spoon in hand and opportunities that most people don't have is clearly too delusional to understand the struggle and plight of most humans. What a horrible take, wish I could listen to the rest of the interview.
I thought long and hard about the poor being selfish idea, and I think I came up with a better explanation based on a couple definitions of money. Andreas Antonopolos says money is a language that communicates value. So people who are poor are not communicating much value. Michael Saylor says money is economic energy. So people who are poor are not creating much economic energy.
i think he clumsily tried to illustrate that the more value you bring to people, the more value you get back. If you look at it only through that lens and make abstraction of all the rest, then he has point: the more you give, the more you get back. But granted, he should have put more context in his argument. In the end, Mark is a human. Humans make mistakes. We are humans. Thanks Peter. and Mark for the good work
Dudes, lol, hate to say it, but I'm gonna sell some and buy a condo in FL (I'm old, not too many more cycles left for me, so heck yeah, I'm gonna take some profits, because life is short, bro)
Condo in FLA? Be careful…remember the one that collapsed? That’s basically every condo building in FL made with rebar and concrete. Expect high HOA fees due to higher insurance &/or maint fund. I could see buying a house though.
Definitely… It’s actually a rather classically American way of looking at (and interacting with) society. The hallmark of the ‘American Dream’ and their foundational ideology. It’s nonsense unless a society is truly meritocratic, but given that the premise of the entire debate is that the system is rigged against the small guy, the observation is both untrue and unkind.
I understood it as “being poor” forces you to think only of yourself and your own needs but as you grow your wealth, eventually, you are able to help others. At least that what I think Mark means.
What he MEANT to say lol… is the richer you are is symbolic of how much value you produced for others. Not always true (obviously if you are part of a parasitic industry, scraping the proceeds of other people labor arbitrarily). The reason why the word “selfish” dosnt fit is because the opposite of selfish is selfless… if you were selfless you would take your friends IOU and rip it up. Determined to do something for someone with ZERO benefit for yourSELF. Expecting later, or cashing in a favor is called a transaction. Robert Breedlove would be a great guy to push back and distinguish the difference. People may “not like” what you said mark because they are to sensitive and hit exposes their shortcomings.. ORRRR the point your trying to make is poorly intellectually laid out. ORRRR we have the same definition of the words your using and you are just wrong. My guess is you probably are just no using the correct words and are being misunderstood.
Bitcoin exchanges Pure Empathy. If you are poor to the point where you are homeless, is that because you have not shared Pure Empathy with others? If you give presents to people, is that an exchange of Pure Empathy? If you volunteer for a Charity or just your community, is that Pure Empathy? If you stop and aid someone due to say they breakdown, is that Pure Empathy? Is exchanging such Empathy because that's what you would expect in return or similar? The very reasons you all make these videos etc now, maybe not initially, is the exchange Pure Empathy, is it not? They come for the Money and stay because of what, is that the exchange of Pure Empathy? Bitcoin is the Exchange of Pure Empathy, Fiat has reducing Empathy and eventually it will be zero Empathy.
I enjoyed this talk, despite not agreeing with all of it.
It blows my mind some people would rather watch the same episode of 'Friends' for the 10th time than consume content such as this.
You are both so very right about the new wealth being about controlling your time and place. As soon as I had complete control over my time - I realized on a deep level that I was, at that moment, effectively as rich as I would ever be. I had already crossed the most important line. My spend rate at that time was very very low but it didn't matter. I was deeply free. I was emotionally healthy. That is wealth. And bitcoin helps in both aspects.
I think people are missing what he meant when he talked about the selfish poor man.
He talked more about the mindset than the actual balance in your bank account.
If you have poor mindset and all you do is pushing buttons in Mcdolands, You are not solving no problem and not adding value to the world.
But if you have the mindset of a rich person, you help the world to develop and grow along with you.
Exactly. People are retards. They can't understand what Mark's trying to say and missing the whole point.
I'm probably more conservative than Mark is but his framing is jacked up when it comes to his McDonald's analogy and providing value in the world. To follow his example my dad wasn't around so we didn't have a lawn mower but there were certainly guys on the street corner selling drugs and I could have gone to work for them to make money so that I could have a bike. And Mark how much value is the Congolese warlord providing? How much value are those little kids digging Cobalt out of the ground so that you can have a laptop computer providing? Do you think they're getting fair value? You don't think those kids are providing any value? Maybe those kids should improve their skills? Like I said I'm probably way more conservative than Mark is but even my unsympathetic ass can see that some people are stuck in some pretty bad situations and simple clever analogies that sound good on a podcast don't necessarily fit in the real world.
Thats the thing all his life is in a buble in itself
You make a good point, but I think he's talking more about people in developed countries
@@TheBitcoinExperience Nearly Half the World Lives on Less than $5.50 a Day. 1 billion people worldwide live on less than one dollar a day,
Mark is the first guy I started listening to when I decided to pursue a financial education. I respect him very much, hes always been generous with me. Great to see him on the show!!
Thanks for the orange pill Mark and Market Disruptors
Mark Moss trying to blanketly claim poor people are selfish is insane. What a disastrous way to frame an argument. Then he regularly tries to change the framing. That was super cringe. Really thought this guy was smarter. He literally gives an example of Africans living under an oppressive ruler who cannot store wealth because it keeps getting stolen from them. Are they selfish? Of course not. Some people are victims of their circumstance and are dealt a bad hand.
This is a vitally important discussion. Although Mark comes at it from a 'white male in a bubble' perspective and skips over all the disadvantages poor people of EVERY color face, his explanation of how the game works and how to win at it is CRUCIAL! Thanks to Peter and the team for bringing us this!
38:34
Holy sh**. I knew Saylor was a baller but that’s just nuts!
Its not $MSTR nor BTC profit money btw.. He nailed most the upcoming technologies of the past 25 years, $APPL $META $Googl and many others.
Peters house is probably bigger than most listens who have houses, and many listeners don't have houses. There are levels in this game.
I enjoyed the conversation very much. Thank you for the awesome show!
Great guest, great show. Thank you.
Mark has interesting views that not many others really go into depth on. I may not agree with some of the conclusions he draws, but do appreciate the thought process and exercises behind getting to those conclusions - that's what I find valuable when I listen to Mark. Diversity in thought is critical. Great pod WBD, and looking forward to when you have Mark on again.
nah
Being honest. The push back was enjoyable and refreshing. Im not gonna just let you say anything and go with it spirit is fresh lemonade
Two quick things:
1.) According to this guy’s philosophy, a hedge fund manager benefits society more and is less selfish than a typical school teacher. Utter nonsense.
2.) In his story about working hard mowing lawns to buy his bike, he conveniently breezed over the fact that his dad had a lawn mower. He was the beneficiary of some privilege. Some kid might not have a dad with a lawn mower - or a dad at all. That doesn’t make the kid lazy or stupid. He’s just less fortunate.
Bitcoiners often wonder why regular folks sometimes find them distasteful. This guy is example A - Z. Glad Peter pushed back on him.
Also casually breezed past the job(s) he was given by his dad / friend’s dad.
I like some of his framing of “how to play the game” but the way he makes broad assumptions, ignores his own privilege / advantages, and hand waves important details and legitimate questions from Peter is pretty disingenuous
His point is to get off your butt and do something to help others, and you will see a return.
you did good on this mark moss interview 👍thank you for letting him talk
We get paid for what we can negotiate. Your value is only one part of this. I make more than most doctors outside of the west. I do not provide more value with my office job than a doctor saving lives. I make more than the guy fixing my car but he is way more valuable to many more people.
You get paid more than most doctors outside of the West in your office job because you're providing a requisite amount of value to SOMEone, not EVERYone.
In terms of overall value to a community of people, I agree with you and hardly think it can be argued that an office worker provides more value.
That said, the economic system in the US is set up to prioritize the individual, not the overall community, which is why wealth disparity is now at its worst level since the period immediately following the Great Depression.
@@jcantonelli1Why is “wealth disparity” a bad thing?
Is a skinny man harmed by the body builder, or the couch potato harmed by the marathon runner?
As with health, wealth is not a zero-sum hame.
Mark is great💪🔥🔝
If the goal is to never sell Bitcoin then how would the security budget be funded?
Moss makes the mistake of applying what should be (value-theory of wages) to what actually happens in real life. It is a careless and unthinking analysis of society, based on his own foundations of 'I mowed lawns to make my first buck.' Intellectually lazy.
52:30 he could get a one mil loan and make a business that make him $300k /year , in monopoly game not real life.
This theoretical ideas won't apply in real life, lets be serious.
Haha yeah I thought the same thing. What a find! Maybe if you started Trader Joe’s or Starbucks or invented the baby changing table. Not most small businesses
You can’t compare value creation as a problem solving entrepreneur to charitable giving - charities don’t solve problems in the long run. They justify their existence by addressing symptoms, not causes.
Does Mark Moss think that the imf is generous or selfish?
How does one affordably borrow fiat against BTC in any serious quantities? Talking outside the USA here.
He loves the sound of his own voice that bloke.
he's a little much on the ideological side and makes it hard to listen seriously.
For real
tis some nonsense in this video
Wow, that was so good. I’m looking forward to reading Mark’s report he mentioned. Thank you for sharing your insights, Mark. Loved it.
Steady lads
Mark trying to wiggle out of his dumb poor people are selfish argument is adorable haha. So slimy
Minority Mindset podcaster would be a great guest on this topic
Mark's thinking is like hopping off of Gestalt's or derivatives of potentially fallible processes for the productive dividend and using those as momentum ahead. Interesting.
Never!!!
Wow. 4 mins in and I have a new quote to tell all the normies 💖
Providing value does not equal generosity. The most selfless person I know is broke. He's not the best with money but he helps sacrificially. I like the free market but this is a nonsense argument gor it.
IMO, if someone (typically a parent) “unselfishly donates” their assets to their adult children to the point that they their-self will no longer be financially independent in their later years, then they are indeed acting in a selfish manor. They have also created a dependent adult child.
that is what I did, no I have two adult men that are on drugs. No self confidence because they did not build that muscle of dying
DIY
In 2024 where to borrow against your BTC.. Thats the question!
Saying poor people are lazy because they don’t understand the system is moronic… 🤦♂️
Peter Schiff cost me millions. And his bank went bankrupt too.
Pushed back. Good game boys. 1-0 to the Brits 😂
Well, the poor are comfortable saying that the rich are rich because they’re selfish. 🤔
play fiat games..
This was absolutely brilliant. Thank you, gents 🧡
let your guests speak
"let's take out the incentive, we can get into what's in the heart of man."
also,
"if you're broke, you're selfish."
of which, selfishness is an incentive and a matter of the heart.
Selfish with their time for sure.
You always bring amazing content Pete Ty. However, Mark is a poser that copies influencers content and jumbles it all together into his regurgitated terrible presentations. He’s obviously just in this for vies not a real bitcoiner
lame
Socialists just don’t get it…
This was a hard watch.
People are going to get cute and try to copy this guy and get absolutely rekt.
There was actually nothing that struck me in this episode. The guy just likes to talk.
This is one of the greatest interviews I have seen Mark Moss being plain himself !!!! AWESOME !!!
I believe the best characteristic of your show is that you argue with the guests a little, and the guests have the confidence to push back.
Challenging ideas in open debate provides so much more insight than two guys stroking each other’s ego in blissful agreement.
I'm not letting you get away with that. jk
A gold mine discussion:
1:07:38 Three types of capital:
Financial, mental and relationship capital.
1:07:05 Three ways to grow a business:
More clients, more product sales and more frequency of buying those products.
Main problem I see with a 10% debt load is you are setting yourself up to have a lot of your corn being held by a third party. Something like 2-3% is more in my comfort zone. But even then only if the third party is trustworthy. Who are you all trusting to back your BTC loans here and now in 2024? I'm very curious.
'So what if you lose 10% if your getting an asset that you want' but if you are getting rekt on a draw down you are going to have a choice to add margin or get called. If you start adding more collateral and the dip runs deeper, now you are potentially losing more than 10%. Worth pointing out.
This
I'm trusting no one.
BTC-collateralized loans should be a non-starter for anyone as long as giving up full custody of the BTC is required.
The financial infrastructure needed to do this in a way that works in the interests of both lenders AND borrowers does not exist in 2024, at least AFAIK.
Yes! Personally, I have no interest in playing the debt games with bitcoin. Higher gains be damned, hold your asset and sleep well. If you must gamble your wealth for higher risk endeavors, buy some shitcoins. At least with those, you can still hold the coins in cold storage...
No one offers places to do this.. BlockFi was one, but they're bankrupt now. I need to hear more details on how this works but no one ever provides it.
Good on you Peter, for not letting this chap get away with an intellectually flawed and insensitive, to say the least, "if you're broke, it kinda means you're selfish' nonsense. The guy obviously has a limited world view. Tell that to single mothers, with multiple jobs, trying to provide for a family. 'You are broke and selfish' sounds very condescending. I hope he learned something and uses that newly found insight to adjust his pitch. Next guest pls.
Agreed. The few good points in this episode were Peter’s story about the factory and the few times Mark wasn’t on a sales pitch. Not sure I believe him in general about his 8 figures and then starting over from scratch… seems suspect
Of course single mothers don’t fall under the umbrella Mark is addressing. I think your argument is avoiding what he is talking about. I have been both poor and a millionaire. I know exactly what he is saying, and I totally agree. He isn’t being mean. It’s a mental attitude and reality.
He'll probably change as much as you will from hearing his point of view.
There are too many single mothers in the first place - this is societal problem. Also don't believe he was talking about people with kids as a whole, or those with two jobs, so you're cherry picking. It was a reference to the (younger) worker/adult who is capable of a lot more but chooses to not gain more skills in a time where you can literally learn any skill you want today, on the internet. Perfectly capable people are choosing highly distractive time drains like playing video games for hours a day, scrolling social apps, instead of using their brains to be become productive in their lives, and for humanity. Sure, he could rephrase his words to fit the pc narrative but because of his wording, we're having this conversation about it.
Those who complain about their situation are selfish. Everybody has the self will to be successful no matter where you have come from. Broke people don't understand that capitalism is all about solving the issues of society and not transactional work that they programmed to believe in. Everyone is responsible to change their programming and question how they became broke in the first place.
the "poor is greedy" analogy is so simplistic, hard to see this moss guy as a smart guy, peter was dead on calling him on it
with moss analogy, does the mcdonalds employee is being "generous" by proxy for mcdonalds owners??
what about if I hire 10 people to keep helping fieinds move??, does the people I hired are being generous for me??
such a poorly thought analogy
I don't think he's saying that individual "poor" people are greedy, only a generalization of the aggregate poor. I certainly understand that we have different starting points and luck throughout life.
Also implies all workers have same levels of intelligence
There are humans that live in parts of the world that are content with doing absolutely nothing with their lives. Not even dig ditches, nothing. But they surely desire to have the life and things other people work for. Sounds selfish to me.
Actually, if you look at things generally at the big picture and more broadly, this analogy make sense.
agreed, He lost me on that point.
The grandkids will probably just run down the real estate with parties and fight over who owns how much of it. Fourth turning. Better plan for your own life, and if there are leftovers, nice for the next generations. May sound selfish and negative, but it isn‘t.
The generosity vs. selfish narrative is just pure bullcrap.
Like poor people who are expending all of their physical and intellectual energy just to remain housed, clothed, and fed have the capacity to just switch their skill set or have $40k to plunk down on Mark’s “Mastermind” group. But Mark think’s they’re just “lazy”. What ridiculous entitlement.
Loved how you didn’t let him get away that. Mark has a very ‘Republican politician’ tendency to try to talk fast and more to push a personal point. It comes off as politically biased and highly opinionated on a generic political theme. That’s why I have a hard time wanting to listen to him. Note: I’m not a fan of either political side whatsoever. Dislike both in many ways.
I stopped at the idea of the poor lacking generosity... Utter nonsense, shows naivety and a breathtaking ignorance of how the world actually works.
Mark 100% right. GOTTA REMEMBER facts dont care about feelings.
This! A lot in here prob fall into the category he is talking about and got butt hurt. The truth hurts
Why is this guy featured so often on WBD?
He brings nothing new or interesting to the table, and his talking points are overly-scripted and extremely reductive.
Also, at least in the US, if you get liquidated then you're responsible for capital gains taxes on the loan proceeds.
He didn't wind up avoiding the very thing that motivated him to take the loan in the first place!
Think we need to pull on this thread a bit more. I think many understand the game but are tired of playing because of the stealing of the system and those that have built their place within the game. I see many millennials and GenZ saying we will no longer play your game and this is what we think of it. Most would be happy to play a fair,equal and un rigged game where the rules can’t be changed to benefit a select few. This also goes back to education and what we are not taught in schools. Bitcoin is a tool that can bring more equality and fairness to those that have previously not been able to climb the ladder quick enough but is being adopted by those again with financial privilege. I fear it’s loosing a bit of its philosophical cause and is why grass roots initiatives in places like Africa, South America and parts of Asia are so important and should get more attention and are of vital importance. Bitcoin is more than just another asset in your portfolio but more your,mine and our kids and their kids future
Which institutions offer the ability to borrow against your Bitcoin? They’re talking about it like it’s commonplace, so curious what resources are available.
He explained that in his channel mark moss in the video named the only Bitcoin strategy you need
First time I've ever unfollowed on X one of Peter's guests. The arrogance of the privileged doesn't really help the space.
Mark can be polarizing when taken at a high level. He said it well in the last two minutes. There are many layers of minutia to the topics touched on. He provides great thought topics that take more than a few minutes to truly deep dive into. It's the nuggets of thought that are where eyes open, not necessarily the words put to them. And, yes, words have meaning and I get that. It is also difficult to put/recall the right words to convey the thought in an interview sometimes. This was a great interview with good people in the Bitcoin and thought/life/experience community.
This interview made me realize how unmature it was of me to want to reach $10m so that I can retire. What is infinitely better is to work right now on providing value to the world while having a blast. Bitcoin can help me secure my financial future and uncuff my hands so that I can do what I was meant to do. Fuck retirement! Welcome fulfilment!
An individual’s net worth is the balance of what they have produced and conserved minus what they have consumed.
People with a negative net worth, or that are on the dole, have taken more from society than they have contributed.
I agree with Mark in that they are the selfish/greedy ones.
I kinda forgot what Mark was bringing to the space. Now I know again. Eye opening! Thx guys!
To add value= giving more value than you receive.
Selfish people never give more value than they recieve.
People that create wealth for themselves give more value than they receive.
So stop being butt hurt because truth, facts and reality dont ever care about your feelings..
That was the most round about way of saying we all have access to knowledge so why are you unkowledgable. That thought is both narrow and self isolating. I'll listen to the rest though. Thanks Fellas
Mark is painfully smarter than Peter, as are most of his guests. That being said, it is important to see this, as most of these conversations in real life will happen between similar IQ gaps.
He is right, if you’re too lazy to physically and mentally figure out how to change your situation… the people at the top just out worked you.
13:00 disagree you can be a therapist or a teacher and you arent making a lot of money but you are providing a beneficial service and its very selfless. An investor on the other hand could be a con artist with millions and very selfish
I have a hard time with Mark's advice on taking out debt with Bitcoin as collateral when he even admits he got rekt himself this way.
The hard work you, Danny, and your team do is so advanced, but perfectly timely vitally important that most will not get it...yet. and I love the fact that yall keep going for the betterment of humanity. The work you and your team spends countless hours upon...is the legacy of you and your teams gift to humanity...good on you bro
Mark’s ideology is an example of what “woke” should really mean
Mark is right people are greedy and selfish, some for money and some for love/praise. We all do things for incentives and to argue something else is absolutely ridiculous.
People are so butt hurt here too because they don't want to admit their own greed and selfishness about themselves
Im happy Peter put Mark Moss on check on the poor = selfish argument. This dude has privileges he can't even see...
I was uncomfortable with calling people/fellow humans "plebs" without flinching. He lost me then.
The guy who only worked for his fathers company, was born with a silver spoon in hand and opportunities that most people don't have is clearly too delusional to understand the struggle and plight of most humans. What a horrible take, wish I could listen to the rest of the interview.
I switched off as soon as he said that. Figured nothing else he had to say would be worth listening to.
I thought long and hard about the poor being selfish idea, and I think I came up with a better explanation based on a couple definitions of money.
Andreas Antonopolos says money is a language that communicates value. So people who are poor are not communicating much value.
Michael Saylor says money is economic energy. So people who are poor are not creating much economic energy.
The rich man who does nothing but conquer and control with his money is no less selfish than the poor who squanders their talents and abilities.
Mark doesn't do Podcasts - he does finely tuned monologues meant for talking at someone rather than taking part in a conversation
i think he clumsily tried to illustrate that the more value you bring to people, the more value you get back.
If you look at it only through that lens and make abstraction of all the rest, then he has point: the more you give, the more you get back.
But granted, he should have put more context in his argument.
In the end, Mark is a human. Humans make mistakes. We are humans.
Thanks Peter. and Mark for the good work
Hi Mark.
I took every dime out of Vanguard after 22 years. Went to where the grass was greener.
I'm glad Peter pushed back a lot on the "selfish" point. I get what Mark is trying to say, but I think it's just poor wording.
Dudes, lol, hate to say it, but I'm gonna sell some and buy a condo in FL (I'm old, not too many more cycles left for me, so heck yeah, I'm gonna take some profits, because life is short, bro)
Enjoy man
Condo in FLA? Be careful…remember the one that collapsed? That’s basically every condo building in FL made with rebar and concrete. Expect high HOA fees due to higher insurance &/or maint fund. I could see buying a house though.
uhh, where can i get a loan against my bitcoin?
Wanna be rich? Get gud. - Mark Moss
What a fucking genius! Why didn’t I think of that.
AI is going to make 1/2 of the jobs go away soon
Mark Moss is completely overrated!
I Like mark but the entire selfish for being poor argument was just stupid and I respect peter for pushing back so hard on it...
100%, not everyone is built the same. Mark obviously has a natural higher intelligence than most.
I loved that bit. You just don't get what he meant.
You don't add any value to the network, you're worthless!
Definitely…
It’s actually a rather classically American way of looking at (and interacting with) society. The hallmark of the ‘American Dream’ and their foundational ideology. It’s nonsense unless a society is truly meritocratic, but given that the premise of the entire debate is that the system is rigged against the small guy, the observation is both untrue and unkind.
Natural selection applies. It may not sound kind but it is the world we live in.
I understood it as “being poor” forces you to think only of yourself and your own needs but as you grow your wealth, eventually, you are able to help others. At least that what I think Mark means.
Have you ever hosted rahul paul. Would love to hear you guys have a conversation.
Not selling my Bitcoin. “My precious” Better life for all.
When Mark is allowed to just riff, alone. I like listening to him. When there’s more than just him in a video…I feel he wanders off.
What bank are you borrowing from that's not charging you 15 to 20 percent interest for your bitcoin?
Tosser
Oh man Mark Moss is awesome!
What he MEANT to say lol… is the richer you are is symbolic of how much value you produced for others. Not always true (obviously if you are part of a parasitic industry, scraping the proceeds of other people labor arbitrarily).
The reason why the word “selfish” dosnt fit is because the opposite of selfish is selfless… if you were selfless you would take your friends IOU and rip it up. Determined to do something for someone with ZERO benefit for yourSELF. Expecting later, or cashing in a favor is called a transaction. Robert Breedlove would be a great guy to push back and distinguish the difference.
People may “not like” what you said mark because they are to sensitive and hit exposes their shortcomings.. ORRRR the point your trying to make is poorly intellectually laid out. ORRRR we have the same definition of the words your using and you are just wrong. My guess is you probably are just no using the correct words and are being misunderstood.
I thought Paul Newman was dead.
😂😂
Bitcoin exchanges Pure Empathy. If you are poor to the point where you are homeless, is that because you have not shared Pure Empathy with others?
If you give presents to people, is that an exchange of Pure Empathy?
If you volunteer for a Charity or just your community, is that Pure Empathy?
If you stop and aid someone due to say they breakdown, is that Pure Empathy?
Is exchanging such Empathy because that's what you would expect in return or similar?
The very reasons you all make these videos etc now, maybe not initially, is the exchange Pure Empathy, is it not?
They come for the Money and stay because of what, is that the exchange of Pure Empathy?
Bitcoin is the Exchange of Pure Empathy, Fiat has reducing Empathy and eventually it will be zero Empathy.