When the top players in the world are having games in which they can only make a few shots. I think it's fair to say the games are set up too hard, and it becomes much more of a game of luck versus skill.
I'm reminded of the NACS this past year, where I saw at _least_ two different players plunge Godzilla straight into the left outlane and another couple plunge up and right down the middle. Like, I get wanting to keep play times short, but be freaking _reasonable_ here.
as someone who has played both 2024 pinburgh, as well as 6 other old pinburghs, I can say for sure the game setups felt like the Replay FX crew are just living in the past of what makes a tournament game. people always used to talk about how hard the PAPA qualifying games were setup, how brutal everything was to play. Replay FX was this hard because a lot of the games from PAPA 15-20 were never changed to more normal settings and were included in Replay FX Pinburghs. People always complained about it, and seeing it again last weekend was saddening because it felt like they haven't changed since 2016. this year Wonka, Rush, Mando, and Avatar were set to the most difficult settings (without any indication) while games like AIQ, Transformers, Family Guy, TNA, and Star Wars were almost just factory with no ballsaves or outlanes. It was night and day switching between banks and it just seemed like the crew hasn't changed at all from old Pinburghs, and I hope the feedback is heard from this year.
@@FloydMaxwell yeah feeds on Walking Dead are usually terrible out of the pop bumpers. No ball save on the game is harsh especially when you plunge into them.
Hilarious how Ray is complaining, yet he was able to achieve the Super Duper Mega Extreme Wizard Mode on SPP during States last year. Absolutely laughable. 😂 Literally the hardest Wizard mode to get to outside of LOTR. These elite players need a reality check half the time and realize that 90% of your average tournament player across the country will NEVER be able to hang with or outplay these guys at the highest level of competitive pinball play. It’s like some of these guys exist in their own “bubble” and bitch/complain about things like posts being removed, which is necessary. Maybe don’t be an excellent player fully capable of winning a national championship?? Maybe don’t be a Top 50 player in the world every single year for a decade??? Maybe stop playing tournaments and find something else to do??? THE reason these things are done, like removing posts, is because these guys can spend one hour on one ball, something your average tournament player cannot do.
@@sadboi7537 oh shiiiii i've come across a few Biscuits fans who are also pinball fans over the past couple years that my interest has been re-piqued by the game. got the bug in the mid 2000s after i came across Monster Bash and finally realized what i was supposed to be doing. But Elwin games really drew me back in. Great year for both Biscuits AND pinball in '24! thanks for taking a minute to leave that comment big homie.
I think it depends on both the game and the expected player skill level. Obviously high-level tournaments should have tougher setups, but there are some games that should _never_ have their ball save deactivated because it just turns them into massive luck-fests (The Walking Dead immediately springs to mind as the standout example, but a lot of more recent games where the plunge just shoots the ball into the middle of the playfield, like Iron Maiden, Led Zep, Godzilla, Foo, and Jaws arguably count as well). Additionally, games that are tough even on standard settings (again, TWD comes to mind) should have fewer modifications than easier games. My barometer would be "Make it hard without making it outright unfair."
That Rush set up is hilarious! I'm in the boat where if you have to strip the game down that much what's the point? Just get a harder game you don't have to strip everything out of. I heard they stripped everything from Stranger Things then even put lightning flippers in for Yegpin.
Rather than watching 3 hours of a repetitive BARRACORA , as viewer, I would much rather watch any modern, bastardized or not. Also, YES, please send some of the Greats like Elwin a direct invite and then PUT THEM ON STREAM! Nothings worse than wanting to see Michael Jordan play basketball and they you have to watch Detlef Schrempf instead.
Tournaments run too long. I find it boring to watch 1+ hour games of Godzilla. Much rather see early SS and EM. James Bond 60th feels like the right direction.
I kinda agree, ya. The couple of moderns that were designed with an old school twist in mind did pretty good, especially Pulp Fiction. That’s something that could be done that hasn’t seemed to have happened a ton so far.. use modern technology to expand on real cool ideas from the 90s Williams era games to improve on them and their technological limitations
@@BootsORiley not sure there was a heck of a lot missing from 90s era games due to technological limitations… at least nothing that I would care to see. Now of you are talking modern takes on anything pre-1983, I’m in.
I agree on the idea of ‘voting with your feet’… if you don’t care for an events format/setup/etc., no one has to show up. That said, I do take a little issue with the generic idea that someone shouldn’t modify a game outside some scope of “what the designer intended”… because if people want to gather and play a game setup in a certain way, be that with tough setups, stall-ball, etc. and people enjoy that then that is what they should do.
There was a tournament I was watching a few months ago where they made modifications to Spider-Man in order to, and I quote, "punish accurate shooters and encourage more ball control." Like... *_what?!_* If you have to resort to _punishing_ a specific skillset, then perhaps you shouldn't be running that game at all.
Great video Tom! If the games were set up so hard when I go play a tournament I would drain in 2 to 5 seconds… These players have so much skill that nearly all games are “easy”. I hope Karl gets the 🏆
They're doing it intentionally to try to get that reputation back of the old Pinburgh games. This specifically almost totally removes a huge aspect from the games which is skilfully nudging around the outlanes. You should not be removing parts from a game. Sure, open up the outlanes but do not remove the posts.
What a great question Tom, What is too far? ..Makes me wonder if there should be guidelines from IFPA on game setup. Maybe there could be different guidelines for number of players in the tournament or if it's a major. It's hard to prepare for a tournament sometimes when you have no real idea how the games will be set up.
Some local leagues where I live recently had machines set to little or zero ball save and one tilt warning with tight tilt bobs. Just in league. I thought that was going too far. And the overall player base in my community has some advanced players, myself included, but even I thought they were set way too difficult. Especially for our novice and intermediate players to even have a chance. On one hand I understand the TD's not wanting these events to run long, but you also gotta give the players a fair chance to flip the ball.
I cannot speak to how things were done this year, but in the past extensive play testing would occur to try to work out which machines would play too long and make adjustments accordingly. They have pulled the plungers out of games where the three switch rule could be abused (The Sopranos, Ripley's), had to adjust for scoring abuse and code glitches (Whodunnit, Spider-Man, CFTBL, Mousing Around, Circus Voltaire), and had the general philosophy of DMD: if the game guaranteed the player a flip, a ball save was not required. Still the TDs had incidents like World Poker Tour where they had the force the player to stop and if anyone caught that player both would receive full credit for the win. You also have to consider the fact the Pinburgh does not have the collection they use to, so they are more restricted as far as overall machine choice and size of the player field. Finally, as far as past winners go, neither Keith Elwin or Adam Becker were on the wait list, and I can only speculate as to why that was the case. I would agree, if the field was still 1000+ players past winners might be a consideration, but with a field only being around 150 you cannot make exceptions, although I do not believe a player's past performance ever guaranteed a spot even when the field was at its largest. Personally the only thing that upset me was that weak right flipper on Genesis, probably should not have been used for finals.
I think they should have the ability to institute a ball time limit if needed. For example, Ball 1 goes for 1hr (organically .. i.e normal play until drain). TD should then say next ball for that group on that game is 10mins max per person. Something like that...as soon as the time hits 0 for that player's ball - move hands off the flippers. Unfortunately there is no silver bullet solution, but this would at least allow TDs to not overmanipulate/setup games to the determent of the playing experience.
Chad Hastings from Delaware Pinball Collective came up with a very cool tiebreaker format instead of the annoying 1 ball format. Essentially, you get 60 seconds, in this case at DPC they use Stars but any old SS would work, you get 60 seconds to play a whole game and score as much as you can, it becomes an exhilarating format and is super exciting while making sure the players at least have a chance to play. This is something that I think directors should start adopting as the default imo.
@@Foxcitiespinball I agree 90+ seconds I think would be ideal, but on a game like stars that might be your whole game xD. Either way I think that's much better in general because it gives people a chance and not get 1 house ball and be knocked out just due to bad luck.
I could get behind that, especially on a lot of classic games where house balls are _extremely_ likely. I understand that luck is always going to be a part of the game, but to have major positions determined by what can basically amount to a coin toss is such BS.
I think they are setting them up with Zahler, Escher, Zack, and Alex in mind. I wasn't at Pinburgh, but after watching and seeing some of the scores put up, the top players were able to figure it out. Maybe the unplayable games weren't selected though, so that is a possibility.
Pretty obvious, all sports have a game timer. This should have been implemented at the manufacturer level. You practice basketball shots but only get 4 quarters to prove how good you are. Same should be with pinball. Limit the time you can showcase your skill. 10 mins per ball should be the max or maybe even 5 mins. I'm confused that my friend owns an Iron Maiden game. His son showed up to a Stern pro circuit, hit the skill shot, literally called skill, and that ended his entire ball because its disabled. Him, his son and I, all believe that is the dumbest thing we ever heard of. How do you take people who train on the game at home and modify the entire game? He lost an entire ball based on something he trained for. He doesn't even want to play tournaments now.
When the top players in the world are having games in which they can only make a few shots.
I think it's fair to say the games are set up too hard, and it becomes much more of a game of luck versus skill.
This guy gets it. ❤️
I'm reminded of the NACS this past year, where I saw at _least_ two different players plunge Godzilla straight into the left outlane and another couple plunge up and right down the middle. Like, I get wanting to keep play times short, but be freaking _reasonable_ here.
as someone who has played both 2024 pinburgh, as well as 6 other old pinburghs, I can say for sure the game setups felt like the Replay FX crew are just living in the past of what makes a tournament game. people always used to talk about how hard the PAPA qualifying games were setup, how brutal everything was to play. Replay FX was this hard because a lot of the games from PAPA 15-20 were never changed to more normal settings and were included in Replay FX Pinburghs. People always complained about it, and seeing it again last weekend was saddening because it felt like they haven't changed since 2016.
this year Wonka, Rush, Mando, and Avatar were set to the most difficult settings (without any indication) while games like AIQ, Transformers, Family Guy, TNA, and Star Wars were almost just factory with no ballsaves or outlanes. It was night and day switching between banks and it just seemed like the crew hasn't changed at all from old Pinburghs, and I hope the feedback is heard from this year.
You would think that with only 12 banks it would be easier to have reasonable setups 😞
It's like no ball save on The Walking Dead. Ball comes down through the tunnel and straight down the middle.
@@FloydMaxwell yeah feeds on Walking Dead are usually terrible out of the pop bumpers. No ball save on the game is harsh especially when you plunge into them.
By the way, TWD setup up for 2 ball games is a great tie-break machine
Overall, the games at Pinburgh were setup just fine. With 50 games to setup, there will aways be a few games that skew too hard.
That’s what I figured. Can’t setup certain games to play for an hour.
Hilarious how Ray is complaining, yet he was able to achieve the Super Duper Mega Extreme Wizard Mode on SPP during States last year. Absolutely laughable. 😂 Literally the hardest Wizard mode to get to outside of LOTR. These elite players need a reality check half the time and realize that 90% of your average tournament player across the country will NEVER be able to hang with or outplay these guys at the highest level of competitive pinball play. It’s like some of these guys exist in their own “bubble” and bitch/complain about things like posts being removed, which is necessary. Maybe don’t be an excellent player fully capable of winning a national championship?? Maybe don’t be a Top 50 player in the world every single year for a decade??? Maybe stop playing tournaments and find something else to do??? THE reason these things are done, like removing posts, is because these guys can spend one hour on one ball, something your average tournament player cannot do.
I fuck with Sadboi
@@BootsORileyThanks, Boots. You’re the OG Bisco uploader. I’ve been on your channel for years, my man. Cool to see you enjoy pinball as well.
@@sadboi7537 oh shiiiii
i've come across a few Biscuits fans who are also pinball fans over the past couple years that my interest has been re-piqued by the game. got the bug in the mid 2000s after i came across Monster Bash and finally realized what i was supposed to be doing.
But Elwin games really drew me back in.
Great year for both Biscuits AND pinball in '24!
thanks for taking a minute to leave that comment big homie.
I think it depends on both the game and the expected player skill level. Obviously high-level tournaments should have tougher setups, but there are some games that should _never_ have their ball save deactivated because it just turns them into massive luck-fests (The Walking Dead immediately springs to mind as the standout example, but a lot of more recent games where the plunge just shoots the ball into the middle of the playfield, like Iron Maiden, Led Zep, Godzilla, Foo, and Jaws arguably count as well). Additionally, games that are tough even on standard settings (again, TWD comes to mind) should have fewer modifications than easier games. My barometer would be "Make it hard without making it outright unfair."
Sounds like Pinburgh is like the US Open in golf
Pretty much when it comes to all the newer or DMD/LCD games
one-ball play off is just plain stupid. Not sure how stupid some TD's can be. It's all about cut time these days =/
That Rush set up is hilarious! I'm in the boat where if you have to strip the game down that much what's the point? Just get a harder game you don't have to strip everything out of. I heard they stripped everything from Stranger Things then even put lightning flippers in for Yegpin.
@@higherplanecollectibles9082 Yegpin is just insane on setups.
Rather than watching 3 hours of a repetitive BARRACORA , as viewer, I would much rather watch any modern, bastardized or not. Also, YES, please send some of the Greats like Elwin a direct invite and then PUT THEM ON STREAM! Nothings worse than wanting to see Michael Jordan play basketball and they you have to watch Detlef Schrempf instead.
Tournaments run too long. I find it boring to watch 1+ hour games of Godzilla. Much rather see early SS and EM. James Bond 60th feels like the right direction.
@@bonzo1971 you are a gentleman and a scholar sir.
I kinda agree, ya. The couple of moderns that were designed with an old school twist in mind did pretty good, especially Pulp Fiction. That’s something that could be done that hasn’t seemed to have happened a ton so far.. use modern technology to expand on real cool ideas from the 90s Williams era games to improve on them and their technological limitations
@@BootsORiley not sure there was a heck of a lot missing from 90s era games due to technological limitations… at least nothing that I would care to see. Now of you are talking modern takes on anything pre-1983, I’m in.
I agree on the idea of ‘voting with your feet’… if you don’t care for an events format/setup/etc., no one has to show up. That said, I do take a little issue with the generic idea that someone shouldn’t modify a game outside some scope of “what the designer intended”… because if people want to gather and play a game setup in a certain way, be that with tough setups, stall-ball, etc. and people enjoy that then that is what they should do.
@@joshuaanderson7405 great point.
There was a tournament I was watching a few months ago where they made modifications to Spider-Man in order to, and I quote, "punish accurate shooters and encourage more ball control." Like... *_what?!_* If you have to resort to _punishing_ a specific skillset, then perhaps you shouldn't be running that game at all.
Great video Tom! If the games were set up so hard when I go play a tournament I would drain in 2 to 5 seconds… These players have so much skill that nearly all games are “easy”. I hope Karl gets the 🏆
They're doing it intentionally to try to get that reputation back of the old Pinburgh games. This specifically almost totally removes a huge aspect from the games which is skilfully nudging around the outlanes. You should not be removing parts from a game. Sure, open up the outlanes but do not remove the posts.
What a great question Tom, What is too far? ..Makes me wonder if there should be guidelines from IFPA on game setup. Maybe there could be different guidelines for number of players in the tournament or if it's a major. It's hard to prepare for a tournament sometimes when you have no real idea how the games will be set up.
Pretty much IFPA just gives guidelines for rules. The Majors are where they are more strict on following the guidelines to a T.
Some local leagues where I live recently had machines set to little or zero ball save and one tilt warning with tight tilt bobs. Just in league. I thought that was going too far. And the overall player base in my community has some advanced players, myself included, but even I thought they were set way too difficult. Especially for our novice and intermediate players to even have a chance. On one hand I understand the TD's not wanting these events to run long, but you also gotta give the players a fair chance to flip the ball.
@@thunderfan77 totally agree
I heard the setups at CAX were great!
I cannot speak to how things were done this year, but in the past extensive play testing would occur to try to work out which machines would play too long and make adjustments accordingly. They have pulled the plungers out of games where the three switch rule could be abused (The Sopranos, Ripley's), had to adjust for scoring abuse and code glitches (Whodunnit, Spider-Man, CFTBL, Mousing Around, Circus Voltaire), and had the general philosophy of DMD: if the game guaranteed the player a flip, a ball save was not required. Still the TDs had incidents like World Poker Tour where they had the force the player to stop and if anyone caught that player both would receive full credit for the win. You also have to consider the fact the Pinburgh does not have the collection they use to, so they are more restricted as far as overall machine choice and size of the player field. Finally, as far as past winners go, neither Keith Elwin or Adam Becker were on the wait list, and I can only speculate as to why that was the case. I would agree, if the field was still 1000+ players past winners might be a consideration, but with a field only being around 150 you cannot make exceptions, although I do not believe a player's past performance ever guaranteed a spot even when the field was at its largest.
Personally the only thing that upset me was that weak right flipper on Genesis, probably should not have been used for finals.
Thanks for your comments. All valid points.
I agree with you Tom!
Thanks! 🙏
one ball is enough since they had plenty of games to be in the lead
Would you play a one ball game for $5000?
@@Foxcitiespinball - If those were the RULES, then I would...I'm sure the rules are posted where you enter the tournament
@@riversarcadereview385 why not do every game as one ball?
@@Foxcitiespinball - probably a time thing...MANY pro bowling finals come down to a one ball roll off since you have 10-frames to beat your opponent.
@@riversarcadereview385it would be pretty cool if they setup the 7-10 split and you had to hit it to advance.
I think they should have the ability to institute a ball time limit if needed. For example, Ball 1 goes for 1hr (organically .. i.e normal play until drain). TD should then say next ball for that group on that game is 10mins max per person. Something like that...as soon as the time hits 0 for that player's ball - move hands off the flippers. Unfortunately there is no silver bullet solution, but this would at least allow TDs to not overmanipulate/setup games to the determent of the playing experience.
Chad Hastings from Delaware Pinball Collective came up with a very cool tiebreaker format instead of the annoying 1 ball format. Essentially, you get 60 seconds, in this case at DPC they use Stars but any old SS would work, you get 60 seconds to play a whole game and score as much as you can, it becomes an exhilarating format and is super exciting while making sure the players at least have a chance to play. This is something that I think directors should start adopting as the default imo.
I would prefer 120 seconds but everyone’s mileage would vary.
@@Foxcitiespinball I agree 90+ seconds I think would be ideal, but on a game like stars that might be your whole game xD. Either way I think that's much better in general because it gives people a chance and not get 1 house ball and be knocked out just due to bad luck.
I could get behind that, especially on a lot of classic games where house balls are _extremely_ likely. I understand that luck is always going to be a part of the game, but to have major positions determined by what can basically amount to a coin toss is such BS.
I think they are setting them up with Zahler, Escher, Zack, and Alex in mind.
I wasn't at Pinburgh, but after watching and seeing some of the scores put up, the top players were able to figure it out. Maybe the unplayable games weren't selected though, so that is a possibility.
Pretty obvious, all sports have a game timer. This should have been implemented at the manufacturer level. You practice basketball shots but only get 4 quarters to prove how good you are. Same should be with pinball. Limit the time you can showcase your skill. 10 mins per ball should be the max or maybe even 5 mins. I'm confused that my friend owns an Iron Maiden game. His son showed up to a Stern pro circuit, hit the skill shot, literally called skill, and that ended his entire ball because its disabled. Him, his son and I, all believe that is the dumbest thing we ever heard of. How do you take people who train on the game at home and modify the entire game? He lost an entire ball based on something he trained for. He doesn't even want to play tournaments now.
I would rather have 2 ball games on a machine set up normally.
no such thing as Too Far...everyone has the same challenge
If 4 players play and only 2 get to flip a ball ……. Is that just pinball???
@@Foxcitiespinball - yes
@@riversarcadereview385I want to play in those. Free!!!