All of that is well said! Thoracle was actually one of the biggest reasons I DIDN'T want to get into cEDH in the first place, but seeing how many strategies win without it, I realized it wasn't the end-all, be-all of the format. Great video!
Yeah I like to see it as the combo that enables the main most streamlined wincon on any deck containing blue/black, but that doesn't necessarily mean its the best combo in any given deck. Like for Inalla, spellseeker is a 1 card combo that you always wanna look for over thoracle
If you have access to Thassa's Oracle and Demonic Consultation / Tainted Pact, you should always add this combo. It's too efficient not to play, even if your main strategy involves Infinite Mana + Draw. The second part strictly applies to decks that don't have access to Consultation / Pact. Also, always watch out for cards that can force you to draw cards in instant speed ! - Kraum trigger - Esper Sentinel trigger - Cephalid Coliseum - Mikokoro - etc.
in fact i play tasigur the golden fang with infinite mana combo to then win beast within and reality shift, in case i can't counter cards like rip then i also have thassa's oracle/jace combo and tainted pact and demonic consultation
I don't run it in Toxrill. As an outlet for infinite mana I prefer Torment of Hailfire (lol I know) bacause it does something early game ad can bait counterspells. It has more synergy for a control deck as well and profits from ramp that is necessary to cast Toxrill.
I'd personally run it if you have access to Consultation / Pact. Both of these tutors are decently good and having a super compact and resilient combo isn't bad tbh.
@@EisenherzMTG you're probably right, but I liked the idea of having a no dead card policy. There are times when even a Thoracle in hand is not what I want. I also happen to dislike the fish.
this is facts. i always cringe inside when i see someone casting a thoracle after drawing with deck with Uro (or something of those lines) great video like always
just to clarify, when you say that you have access to every card in your deck, do you mean also having the resources to cast them? i mean it's one thing if you have to thassa's oracle after drawing your deck with infinite mana, but what if you had like... 4 mana on average after you got there? enough mana for oracle and potentially up to 2 pieces of 1 cost counters if needed, as well as whatever free counters are in your hand from what you drew? would that kind of deck be a reasonable home for the fish lady?
If you are in sans Black I highly recommend not playing Thassas Oracle. Usually gaining access to your whole deck also means that you gain access to a lot of fast mana (rock / rituals) etc. These should allow you to present a win, without the need of the Fish Lady. If you can't perform a win, because you lack ressources (cards or mana) then it's either a problem with the specific decklist or the archetype / color odentity doesnt provide better win options. Thats rare though.
The specific deck in question for this one is Niv-Mizzet, Parun (curious control) i've been trying to figure out a way to make this deck win without oracle, but every time i've tried it's ended in the deck becoming infinitely more fragile to interaction. Thassa's Oracle is just so annoying to play with though; because when i draw it before Curiosity i would much rather it be even just a land or a piece of control magic that i can actually use, but i can't find a way to cut it without seriously undermining the deck's resilience.
@@cubiccalico5019 Curiosity Control can win multiple ways without Thassas Oracle. - curiosity on niv can usually kill most players - you can pivot into LED + brainfeeze - you can add glinthorn + malcolm www.moxfield.com/decks/iXxJYiYCY0GLeqkMEu-AjA/primer
You should be able to win the game without Thassa's Oracle anyway. It's played because its the most compact win con. Even in deck that can draw the entire library and generate infinite this takes time and being able to pivet into a early win is really helpful. Also it's kinda debatable how good Brain Freeze actually is. I mean without Breach its also just a Dead card. Personally Urza is strong. But considering a lot of Urza decks can be on polymorph you don't always get to play all the cards you wish and want to. Because of the deck restrictions of this effect. Personally every time I played Urza I just kinda wished he was Thrasios. But yeah the fish by itself if Consultations weren't around is kinda garbage.
Same is true for Jace though. If you check the DDB, you will see that only decks with access to Pact / Consult actually play Thassa's Oracle. The only exceptions are GAAIV and one Shorikai List. None of the decks that aim to "draw" their library play Thassa's Oracle.
@@EisenherzMTGWell there is also some Thrasios Tymna lists. But this does actually help explain why Thrasios Tevesh doesn't use Freed from the Real. I hadn't actually considered they where all in on Doomsday and consult. Interesting. Also think the only place Jace fits is ROL decks since you can't really do the two spells in a single turn. But even then I would probably focus on stax package because four mana and three triple blue is a bit much.
Hmm this is very interesting. I have a Falco Spara list where the primary goal is to go infinite draw with Top and Devoted Druid but I also use Thought Lash to manipulate the top deck and dig. Because lash is in the list and I can draw the library I run Thoracle. I wonder if I shouldn’t….
Assuming you play a fully optimized competitive list, I'm certain your deck should allow to win the game without Thassa's Oracle after drawing your library. Depends on your list ofc, but usually there is a way. I could have a look the list if you want me to.
All of that is well said! Thoracle was actually one of the biggest reasons I DIDN'T want to get into cEDH in the first place, but seeing how many strategies win without it, I realized it wasn't the end-all, be-all of the format. Great video!
Yeah I like to see it as the combo that enables the main most streamlined wincon on any deck containing blue/black, but that doesn't necessarily mean its the best combo in any given deck. Like for Inalla, spellseeker is a 1 card combo that you always wanna look for over thoracle
If you have access to Thassa's Oracle and Demonic Consultation / Tainted Pact, you should always add this combo. It's too efficient not to play, even if your main strategy involves Infinite Mana + Draw. The second part strictly applies to decks that don't have access to Consultation / Pact.
Also, always watch out for cards that can force you to draw cards in instant speed !
- Kraum trigger
- Esper Sentinel trigger
- Cephalid Coliseum
- Mikokoro
- etc.
And Ancestral Recall. Don't forget Ancestral Recall!
in fact i play tasigur the golden fang with infinite mana combo to then win beast within and reality shift, in case i can't counter cards like rip then i also have thassa's oracle/jace combo and tainted pact and demonic consultation
Eisenherz=spitting the facts, doing God's work in turning people away from cEDH's biggest current flaw
I'm not a Commander kind of guy, but it seems like the two should have separate ban lists.
I don't run it in Toxrill. As an outlet for infinite mana I prefer Torment of Hailfire (lol I know) bacause it does something early game ad can bait counterspells. It has more synergy for a control deck as well and profits from ramp that is necessary to cast Toxrill.
I'd personally run it if you have access to Consultation / Pact. Both of these tutors are decently good and having a super compact and resilient combo isn't bad tbh.
@@EisenherzMTG you're probably right, but I liked the idea of having a no dead card policy. There are times when even a Thoracle in hand is not what I want. I also happen to dislike the fish.
Hit youself with JMS's ultimate and phase her out first. Has anyone tried that in regular EDH before?
When should I run Shaharazaad?
this is facts. i always cringe inside when i see someone casting a thoracle after drawing with deck with Uro (or something of those lines) great video like always
just to clarify, when you say that you have access to every card in your deck, do you mean also having the resources to cast them? i mean it's one thing if you have to thassa's oracle after drawing your deck with infinite mana, but what if you had like... 4 mana on average after you got there? enough mana for oracle and potentially up to 2 pieces of 1 cost counters if needed, as well as whatever free counters are in your hand from what you drew? would that kind of deck be a reasonable home for the fish lady?
If you are in sans Black I highly recommend not playing Thassas Oracle. Usually gaining access to your whole deck also means that you gain access to a lot of fast mana (rock / rituals) etc. These should allow you to present a win, without the need of the Fish Lady.
If you can't perform a win, because you lack ressources (cards or mana) then it's either a problem with the specific decklist or the archetype / color odentity doesnt provide better win options. Thats rare though.
The specific deck in question for this one is Niv-Mizzet, Parun (curious control)
i've been trying to figure out a way to make this deck win without oracle, but every time i've tried it's ended in the deck becoming infinitely more fragile to interaction. Thassa's Oracle is just so annoying to play with though; because when i draw it before Curiosity i would much rather it be even just a land or a piece of control magic that i can actually use, but i can't find a way to cut it without seriously undermining the deck's resilience.
@@cubiccalico5019 Curiosity Control can win multiple ways without Thassas Oracle.
- curiosity on niv can usually kill most players
- you can pivot into LED + brainfeeze
- you can add glinthorn + malcolm
www.moxfield.com/decks/iXxJYiYCY0GLeqkMEu-AjA/primer
Like you said, people only play Thassa's Oracle if it's used as a win condition. Otherwise, there is no reason to play it at all.
You should be able to win the game without Thassa's Oracle anyway. It's played because its the most compact win con. Even in deck that can draw the entire library and generate infinite this takes time and being able to pivet into a early win is really helpful.
Also it's kinda debatable how good Brain Freeze actually is. I mean without Breach its also just a Dead card.
Personally Urza is strong. But considering a lot of Urza decks can be on polymorph you don't always get to play all the cards you wish and want to. Because of the deck restrictions of this effect. Personally every time I played Urza I just kinda wished he was Thrasios.
But yeah the fish by itself if Consultations weren't around is kinda garbage.
Same is true for Jace though. If you check the DDB, you will see that only decks with access to Pact / Consult actually play Thassa's Oracle. The only exceptions are GAAIV and one Shorikai List. None of the decks that aim to "draw" their library play Thassa's Oracle.
@@EisenherzMTGWell there is also some Thrasios Tymna lists. But this does actually help explain why Thrasios Tevesh doesn't use Freed from the Real. I hadn't actually considered they where all in on Doomsday and consult. Interesting.
Also think the only place Jace fits is ROL decks since you can't really do the two spells in a single turn. But even then I would probably focus on stax package because four mana and three triple blue is a bit much.
If you ever want to play with these guys again, don't play thoricle. Especially not with Leyline of Anticipation so you can pull it off turn 0.
Hmm this is very interesting. I have a Falco Spara list where the primary goal is to go infinite draw with Top and Devoted Druid but I also use Thought Lash to manipulate the top deck and dig. Because lash is in the list and I can draw the library I run Thoracle. I wonder if I shouldn’t….
Assuming you play a fully optimized competitive list, I'm certain your deck should allow to win the game without Thassa's Oracle after drawing your library. Depends on your list ofc, but usually there is a way. I could have a look the list if you want me to.
Tldrwpb: Never outside of cedh
RIBBET