In his honest review published on Medium, titled “Life as Everybody Knows It: Book Review of ‘Life As No One Knows It’ by Sara Imari Walker,” Hector Zenil argues that instead of focusing on her own work, Walker devotes most of her book to discussing Leroy (Lee) Cronin's Assembly Theory (AT). AT, a hypothesis about life, has been repeatedly disproven by multiple groups, including Zenil's own team (see various papers by Zenil, such as “On the Salient Limitations of Assembly Theory” and “Assembly Theory is a Weak Version of Algorithmic Complexity Based on LZ Compression That Does Not Explain or Quantify Selection or Evolution”). The book claims AT offers new insights into biology by counting copies from selection to evolution, but this idea had already been explored for decades using more advanced tools, making AT a weaker version of those tools.
Wow...amazing! Sara is such an awesome thinker! Thanks Michael for being such a knowledgeable host and asking the good questions! Will definitely have to listen to the talk again! Thanks to both of you! 🌿
18:00 I grew up in a young earth creationist household in the 90’s and deeply believed it. I have long felt at odds with Michael but have grown to respect him. I also had parents that understood the importance of truly understanding others perspectives. It was because of this that I did also understand biological evolution and the processes that govern it. Long story short 18:00 Sarah explains something important to me. As a child I would lay in bed at night and dream about space and the possibilities of life elsewhere. My belief in god did not allow me to imagine natural mechanisms for what could create these creatures outside of “god did it.” I recognized that evolution could explain the emergence of life elsewhere - even though I didn’t believe these mechanisms of evolution were real…I would think about the contrast of Venus earth and mars and think…. Other worlds have different environmental pressures and could develop life in dramatically different ways…. And I would dream of different worlds and their possibilities. Because of my parent’s influence, I am in the medical field now but what Sarah speaks on is where my passion has always been and at least I can listen and learn from people like her. I’m not even 40 so I guess I could change fields but… just seems like a pipe dream at this point.
@18:30 It's very refreshing to hear an academic who challenges assumptions as freely as Sara does. She is the first physicist I have heard discussing the idea that matter might have properties other than mass and charge (she didn’t mention spin here but I assume she would if asked). In fact, the definition of matter as “any substance that has mass and takes up volume” is almost plucked out of thin air. Where is the experiment showing that matter must have mass? How could there have ever been such an experiment? It must be an assumption and a very limiting one at that. It could be why we have no idea what thoughts might be, for example, and why many people are Dualists by default even though philosophers mostly agree that it’s implausible. Unlike Sara, I disagree with equating the terms ‘material’ and ‘physical’ for the above reason. Physics can only measure things that have mass, charge and spin but we can’t unequivocally claim that all matter has at least one of those properties. But looking at the possibility of matter outside of the scope of current physics might open up a host of possibilities relating to what life is.
Excellent discussion. I love this topic and I so appreciate Michael’s follow up questions- esp regarding teleology, which allowed her to more clearly articulate her ideas, which go deep. Also worth noting: Lee Cronin, whom she mentions a lot, has a few Big Think videos that dropped this week on Assembly Theory, which compliments very well to this discussion. Glad I saw those before watching this talk.
Think of 1 hour ago, and then think of the year 1910, about 1000000 hours ago. Then scale up the past day and a half or so. About 40 hours ago. Now about 40 million hours ago Dynastic Egyptians were building the Pyramids of Giza, and these hours are counting, so many are that many million. Enough. Mars zero oxygen water no fucking chance of anything, humans are doomed grandiose idiots. correct me if I'm wrong..🎉🎉😮
there was important information about how voluntary actions take place in the brain, especially how humans wake up (voluntarily using consciousness type two instead of consciousness type one), the location of the area responsible for that Voluntary action in the brain was mentioned too. that’s highly important too.
Researchers have demonstrated that Assembly Theory (AT) is equivalent to existing work like Shannon entropy and LZ compression, without proper citation. AT is also a weaker version of these established concepts, highlighting the importance of not exaggerating intended scientific work, especially if it is not original and does not explain what its authors claim it to explain. More recently, Dr. Hector Zenil's review of Sara Walker's book "The Physics of Life's Emergence" (published on Medium and titled: "Book Review: Life As No One Knows It by Sara Imari Walker") reveals it as largely promoting AT, a disproven hypothesis based on chemist Leroy Cronin's ideas. The book misrepresents prior work, misunderstands fundamental concepts, and presents flawed ideas as revolutionary, ultimately a self-promotion exercise rather than a substantive scholarly contribution. Academic publications include a paper in npj Systems Biology and Applications: "On the salient limitations of the methods of assembly theory and their classification of molecular biosignatures" and another in the arXiv: "Assembly Theory is a weak version of algorithmic complexity based on LZ compression that does not explain or quantify selection or evolution".
At 1:131:00 Sara gives the example of onset of life as an example when talking about abrupt onset of consciousness, which seems to contradict her earlier discussion that life may be a continuum - chemistry - organics chemistry - amino acids - rpoteins- RNA/ - DNA - viruses - unicellular life. Also her insisting that we do not know what life is if not 100% accurate. We know a lot. A clarification of that will be helpful.
"Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action" - Ayn Rand quote. Good definition. There are always boundary cases to every concept and definition, a boundary case does not invalidate a concept, if so no concepts would be valid at all.
This is much easier to comprehend: this universe built based on a specific advanced Logic, and living intelligent entities in this universe must possess or equipped with the same logic that was behind the building of this universe to be able to understand it.
questions: so if life is about the push of selection through time leading inexorably toward complexity, why do the most ancient and simple organisms (like archaebacteria) still exist? likewise if consciousness and free will are the product of the same processes, why aren’t archaebacteria conscious and exercising free will?
Mathematics is just a quantitative tool, it's not a component of matter. The mechanisms of life are solely the product of matter; thus, the structure of matter is where we need to look first to understand how life is able to form from it. Presently, the nature of particles and ultimately matter is not understood in mainstream science, it’s only seen, but what is not seen is its underlying structure, that is, its causation and internal properties, such as, what is the actual substance that composes a particles essence. For those of you who say quarks compose particles; that neglects the question, what is the underlying essence composing those quarks which are just smaller particles. To answer what is the definition of life, we first must definitively decipher what is the essence that composes particles. To answer this question, we must start by defining what composes the volume of space itself, since all things exist within space, and ultimately, must be a byproduct of space, since it has to exist first for things to exist within it. Since the volume of space has three spatial properties, and tangible properties can’t exist without a substantive causation, its physical existence is paramount in the question. As well, since space has to exist first, then everything must come from it, there simply is nowhere else for things to come from. Let’s talk about it…
Interesting. There was a mention that we humans "fill in blanks" when we don't understand things that don't have current explanations. By theorising intangibles via science are we not doing the same albeit more intelligently? Until substantiated one might say so have "faith".☺
I think that this is much easier to understand: self concept is the responsible for the whole processes that take place in the brain (including generating both personal identity, consciousness type one) and consciousness type two is responsible for processing sensory data including visual sensory data, that’s why some humans can bypass the Limbic system to retrieve memories (consciousness type two is involved in the working mechanism of the Limbic system but it can bypass that), consciousness type two is just an important part of self concept and responsible for processing and monitoring vital processes (plays essential role in those processes). consciousness type two plays a main role in the advanced sophisticated processes of cerebellum too. consciousness type one and type two are similar in some aspects but consciousness type two is far more advanced in some specific processes.
Very very long stable or slowly enough changing (temperate) environment where complexity can sustain (naturally), and the change is slow enough that it does not disrupt the complexity build up, the emergence of life may be an imperative. And for this we do not need to have new physics like Sara claims at around 1:36:00. In other words sustained complexity over time may be that secret sauce. Of course, by necessity the environment needs to have available, constituent parts that can form complex things. Imagine if earth only had Helium, life (likely) would not have formed. Carbon chemistry happens to provide that ability (fortunately).
I think that this better definition of Mathematics: Mathematics is the symbolic representation of human logic that tries to reach the correct scientific formulas on which this universe was built, and humans use evidence. scientific methodology, experiments,…etc to reach that goal. There is a misunderstanding regarding deduction, inference, .. etc and their relationship to logic.
You can only define something when you understand its fundamentals; otherwise, you're merely guessing. Life and its origins are complex, having developed over hundreds of millions of years through numerous stages and processes about which we know little or nothing.
A little simplistic for me. Flowing rivers are animated. Planets orbiting stars are animated. My understanding of the definition of life is molecules arranged in a manner able to replicate.
Assembly theory is a concept from theoretical physics and chemistry that aims to quantify the complexity of structures by measuring the number of steps or "assembly actions" required to build them. The theory is used to understand the emergence of complex molecules, systems, or patterns, particularly in the context of distinguishing between natural and artificial structures, or between simple and complex chemical compounds. ### Key Points of Assembly Theory: 1. **Assembly Index**: This is the core measure in assembly theory. It quantifies the minimum number of steps needed to construct a given structure from simpler building blocks. The higher the assembly index, the more complex the structure. 2. **Application to Origin of Life**: One of the primary applications of assembly theory is in the study of the origin of life. By applying the assembly index to different molecules, scientists can differentiate between those that are likely the result of biological processes and those that are not, potentially identifying signatures of life. 3. **Distinguishing Complexity**: Assembly theory helps in distinguishing between simple and complex molecules or systems. It suggests that highly complex molecules (those with a high assembly index) are unlikely to form by random processes alone and might be indicative of life or advanced technology. 4. **Potential Use in Astrobiology**: The theory has implications for astrobiology, where it might help identify biosignatures in extraterrestrial environments by analyzing the complexity of detected molecules. Assembly theory offers a novel approach to understanding and quantifying complexity in natural and artificial systems, with broad implications for fields ranging from chemistry to the study of life in the universe.--Chat GPT
It's old darwin drowned it out greater world didn't believe undesirable eccentric fundamentalist Christian separatist puritan pilgrim was gonna build a beast of burden. They hated blue print formulism challenging ore 1500s out of context affinitys. Everyone is to look for X/z astronomical energy density defibrillator source Y earth's elements molecular structures fairly known T order of magnitude scaled thermodynamical epochs & geological decay WINDOW cambrian explosion of life epochs
That's why phylosphers or theologians like darwin are supposed to Triangulate what the sources of info are in this blue prints formulism. All of this is known to esoterica America it all falls out in the quest for eqaul measure to know all things. Your not supposed to teach men.myths or over fund.or lobby them shouting down the entire academic excersize to find out . I can only tell you 15th 16th English hue =wavelength spectrum in human and our eccentric fundamentalist Christian separatist puritan pilgrim ancestors who dug up first archeology fossils Would have this formilism xyzt longitude latitude ultimate precision instrument ✝️ Triangulate thermodynamical systems The x/z astronomical energy density defibrillator source could be milkyway qauzar or passing magnatar Y axis earth's elements molecular structures is all darwin and greater world taxonomical pre 1500s world or babylonian evolutionary mythology T epoch window geological decay WINDOW cambrian explosion epoch.
15th century when newton copy's underground movement that made up most of early America they knew then we would build a future beast of burden robot slave and horsepower utility of cpu serfdom it drove Williams tyndales to seek perfect alignments in language for king James English puritan encoded and for even mark twain to go pilgrimage confirm & help perfect ultimate precision instruments tuned weights and measure in history nature nations universe language etc etc It just so happens classical American serfs & slaves alike decants ancestors was taught all of this even in 1820s. Math mapping blue prints when affinity like dualistic taxonomy gets in the way of progress you do like Descartes you move them encrypted into mind / body or dualistic brain hemisphere y axis prenticious clocklike views that our eyes see .
very likely this universe built based on one indivisible unit and that’s the secret behind so-called fine structure constant and some other constants to maintain its structure and integrity, and that’s the secret behind the strong connections between subatomic and cosmological levels. Dirac had the right to wonder.
Life! = Invisible dynamism becoming visible to the point it becomes personal an even worse, a person. Word, person signifies crystal clearly another very but very interesting word, called...MASK! OUCH! This definitely hurts.
You know human thoughts (part of them were written on this UA-cam channel), the rest was deleted purposely such as human thoughts on closer to truth UA-cam channel,….etc
22:45 These are human thoughts: What can create life on planet Earth can create it on different planets with different requirements, and the concept of life is not linked to the existence of DNA,…. Etc. All of this was written several years ago in detail, and they collected all human thoughts with the aim of stealing and polluting them.
How to reconcile belief that there isn't irreducible anything while accepting that there is information loss and some version of obscurity beyond measurement of histories? Is this a counter-cum-religious comment of hubris about measurement and that some day somehow everything can be measured and all initials accounted for? It seemed earlier in the conversation by the meteor molecule diversity example it was accepted that combinatorial space is so vast that repeating even if possible doesn't guarantee any prior assembly piece being more than temporary and dropped as folded-in at an emergence to what Wolfram would say IS irreducible unless you can account for all histories to that point?
Both consciousness type one and type two are just a tools within more complex systems (self concept plays the main role), when you dream, in fact you use consciousness type two not type one (consciousness type one is the one you use right now), how can you recognise (realise) right now? you use consciousness type one to accomplish that, but when you are sleeping you disconnect from consciousness type one and consciousness type two takes place even though it’s always on to monitor the vital functions). consciousness type two is highly sophisticated and advanced, it plays a main role in perception and the functions of cerebellum,…. etc. the details already was written years ago, and some groups of irrational criminal thieves already have stolen and polluted all that in addition to individual thieves. I wrote only for the sake of future generations of mankind only (human thoughts are the exclusive properties of future generations of mankind only and no one has the right to steal and pollute them in anyway). to concise: what generates both personal identity and consciousness type one is self concept but consciousness of type two is part of self concept.
The definition of Science is incorrect too, similar to the definition of Logic (the describe how they should approach Science based on their current limited knowledge but they don’t describe the essence of Science itself).
Well, she keeps saying, we make, we inject, we build that is artificial life...that does not answer or come close to learning how life might have happened or how the origin of life could've happened. So if your point is in what we can make, then what or whom directed or made molacles that dont create life on its own create the information for molacles into a cell a living cell not alge?
Wow reading a lot of comments from dudes that didn't have the balls to write the book Sara did and I would wager that none of them are named after a port in Japan.
Any living entity that sleeps has a level of consciousness type one. On planet Earth, the living being that belongs to planet Earth and has the highest level of consciousness type one is the human being. The fact that all living organisms on planet Earth share the same biological and genetic characteristics is due to the fact that all living organisms on planet Earth originate from the same life cycle of planet Earth, and not necessarily that all living organisms on planet Earth necessarily originated from one source (one root). It is possible for life to arise on other planets under biological conditions and characteristics different from the biological conditions and characteristics of living organisms on planet Earth. This was also written several years ago and the irrational thieves worked to steal it and pollute it as well (to issue contaminated copies of the thoughts of rational intelligent human entity). that means it’s possible to find other intelligent entities that have completely different biological and genetic characteristics than living entities on planet earth. it’s possible for other rational intelligent entities of alien origin to contaminate the life cycle of planet earth. in addition to that it’s possible for humans to find other living entities structurally similar to living entities on Earth, such as insects, animals, and plants, but humans would not be able to eat them (meaning they would not be able to enter them in the food chain of humans ).
What is life? (Life)...is simply a word, that is composed by 4 letters which becomes even more convoluted when another word like, personal, is put right before it to create the words; personal & life. Now, taking away the word, and, and creating the small sentence showing, only the words, personal life, is actually where the entire conundrum begins. Now, what's even more interesting is what creates these 2 words, which is, LANGUAGE! Which mysteriously precedes matter & all lifeforms which r bizarrely, 2 more words. Hmm! I believe that what needs to b scrutinized here is what language really is. It seems to b the incognito culprit hidden behind all this phenomenal activity that appears to appear as life or some sort of animating activity that appears to b happening to people but that ostensibly is not. This brutal obviousness seems at times unimpeachable. An interesting analogy would b that aliveness or impersonal life is analog activity & personal life is digital activity or even worse, ontological activity or real activity & epistemological activity or technological vs natural. When perceptional activity operates at personal levels, there is a massive possibility that whatever information is happening apparently here can easily b misinterpreted by following or reinforcing opionated activity that has being deeply rooted on conjectures. Of course, these will b just words happening which unfortunately have been directly responsible for historical records of apparently individual bodies interacting with an environment that appears to b operating at collective levels not even once recognizing autonomous entities dreaming the nightmare that has been defined & put in dictionaries all over this holographic global party, called, FREE WILL.
At 1:04:00 there is a discussion about evolution and teleology. I also understand (strategically) why Sara talks in teleological tone about it. Teleology definitely has a wider appeal - even to the non-scientific crowd. And in fact in most of the science, teleology is resisted and teleology is preferred. But it is the same mistake as the following: - Copenhagen interpretation saying that consciousness is NEEDED the collapse of quantum wave function. Sure it was innocent talk among physicists. Look at what the woo crowd has done with that. Scientists may think that Woo crowd is friendly to them because they like scientists ideas, but make no mistake. They ultimate goal is to overthrow scientific approach. The first chance they get they will attack science. Read Adam Baker's book "What is real?" about this topic. - The non-computation consciousness talk by Roger Penrose is similarly, inadvertently causes harm to the science. Orch OR theory due to Roger and Stuart says that collapse of quantum wave function in microtubules causes consciousness. The reason is that Roger says that consciousness is non-computational. Sure. But what he means by that is consciousness is non-CLASSICAL-computational. Meaning, it may be quantum computational. Therefore the connection to collapse of quantum wave function in microtubules etc. But we have to remember two things: - quantum physics is physics, thus Orch OR is a physicalist theory. Nothing woo. - The following two are exactly opposite in terms of CAUSE -> EFFECT relationship: - Collapse of quantum wave function (CAUSE) causes consciousness (EFFECT) - Consciousness (CAUSE) causes collapse of quantum wave function (EFFECT) - Part of Copenhagen interpretation which is no longer considered true by science. The woo crowd conveniently conflates these two opposite ideas. Sara needs to be mindful of the same conflation on her poetic use of teleological language when talking about evolution. Thanks Michael for alerting Sara about the perils of teleological talk at 1:13:00 .
Hmmm... 10:40 I am surprised to hear Sara juxtapose - reductionism and (weak) emergence as opposite. They are not. They are two sides of the same coin. The so-called strong emergence is another story. And it is more surprising because the qualitative nature of assembly theory which she proposes is of the reductive (parts of assembly - atoms and molecules) -emergent (their assembly) nature. And we do not have to give an example of life for reductionism vs emergence. A simple example is: - hydrogen is not wet and liquid at room temperature - we know why from atomic properties of hydrogen - oxygen is not wet and liquid at room temperature - we know why from atomic properties of hydrogen H2O i.e. water - is wet - is liquid so wetness is a emergent property, but we know why. We know how the bonds in H2O molecules are formed. We know the remain very weak charge. We know the angle of the bonds in H2O molecules (104.5 degrees). We know H2O molecules are hydrophilic at room temperature, because of the very small leftover charge on the molecules. Which is why they slide past each other making them liquid. It also allows easy evaporation giving it cooling effect and thus wetness. And we know how all this happens because of atomic properties of each H and O. This is an example where reductionism and emergence are two sides of the same coin.
I think you are wrong about neurons don't know what they are doing and just randomly mulling around. In fact they are are programed and have a mission to connect to another neuron, thats what they do, they connect to offload and upload. They are programmed to do only that.thats their job.
This is very important:“Endless Memory; Mind Reading; Mindfulness | 60 Minutes Full Episodes 60 Minutes”, Perception is the responsibility of consciousness type two that transforms sensory data into partially processed information to be ready to use by consciousness type one, it’s about brainstem Limbic system cortex, actually self concept bypasses the Limbic system in this case, that was about how consciousness type two process visual sensory data in the occipital lobe (a group of thieves already started to steal and pollute that), and how some humans can remember the fine details of books they read or a scene of a city that painter can draw in details, and why future generations of mankind must understand the working mechanism of the Limbic system (it’s a weak point), and why humans can express rational emotions and thoughts without the need to Limbic system. it’s highly important that all I have written reaches future generations of mankind clean and intact (they will need all that to survive as rational intelligent human entities, it’s a matter of survival for them).
Wow, she just actually mentioned that I don't have a brain by meaning of most people don't understand. I am most people and I'm sorry ma'am but I do understand. I would like to know how you're being paid. I know you work for working hard and paying taxes and I need roads fixed. Why am I actually needing you to talk about, bio disease getting out of doctor and I'm not sick and I'm not taking a shot
Carbon chauvinism for naturally evolving complexity is not as bad as it sounds. The reason is because in a natural, un-directed context it seems to be true for the stable conditions found on earth which fortunately have not been very very very wildly varyings in a disconteneous fashion (except for the asteroid strike that killed dinosaurs or the Theia colliding with the Earth to create the moon) , the choice of nature to use carbon chemistry seems - well - natural. And yes, once the un-directed natural process using carbon chemistry builds the intelligent lifeforms like humans, then for that stage we need not be carbon chauvinistic. We are starting to enter that stage now with LLMs running on silicon based chips - potentially exhibiting consciousness and rational thoughts and reasoning. Now we are off to races. Buy why? Because to enter the assembly space above 15 assembly number using non-organic strategy requires directed, engineered approach, which humans are now capable. Sara pegs the Assembly number for life to be above 15 or so. And I am willing to bet that the assembly number phase space for values above 15 is dominated by organic molecules (assuming undirected, natural context). BTW had life formed on the Earth before the Theia collision event happened? What is the timeline for that? Anyone has any idea?
I would say that life is that which is made from cells. Anything without cells isn't life or alive. Sarah is nit only clearly intelligent but us rather beautiful too. Sadly, for myself at least, I see she wears a ring, lol! 😂😢
Discussion at 16:20 - it is not that we take any two random unknown things and say that they are connected. There are many unknown things But as we all know there is a very specific social phenomenon about connecting consciousness with quantum. There are may social reasons for this: - Hollywood has made the word quantum a super cool word (remember quantum leap). It also has the ring of other cool word like flux capacitor, onmidirectional phasor blaster etc etc - Dancing woo lee masters etc have caught peoples imagination. but more importantly: - unfortunately the Copenhagen interpretation crowd says that consciousness is needed for collapsing wave function. This is no longer believed by scientists but it has stuck in the popular imagination. The woo crowd loves this. More on this below. - woo crowd is sheepishly aware of their wooness and are eager to give a patina of scientificness to their woo theories and conflate scientific ideas with their woo ideas. Unfortunately sloppy talk by people like Penrose's Orch OR is conveniently exploited and co-opted by woo crowd to ride Roger's scientific credentials/coat tails. Roger says that consciousness is non-computational. OK. Maybe. Stephen Wolfram probably disagrees with that. In any case, what he means by that is that consciousness is not classically computational. He along with Stuart Hameroff says that collapse of quantum wave function in microtubules (CAUSE) causes consciousness (EFFECT). Meaning that consciousness is not classical computational, but is quantum computational. OK. Fine. But woo crowd intentionally conflates it with the exact opposite idea that consciousness (CAUSE) causes collapse of the quantum wave function (EFFECT). See the CAUSE -> EEFFCT relationship is exact opposite between these two ideas. - collapse of quantum wave function in microtubules (CAUSE) causes consciousness (EFFECT) - is a completely physicalist idea. Woo crowd conveniently forgets that quantum physics is physics. - consciousness (CAUSE) causes collapse of the quantum wave function (EFFECT) - is opposite of the above and is a woo idea
I find her dismissal of Avi Loeb, because he needs to have an explanation for why alien life would look like it does, is reflective of her own field of research limiting her imagination. You don't need an explanation for something to notice it. Hence most of astrophysics. Her perception is "if I can't explain it, then it doesn't exist".
@@karagi101 The evidence is all around you. Look at all studies of consciousness and the various conclusions and theories of a 'holographic universe' or a 'simulation', a 'hallucination' or what is most accurate: an illusion. You don't see things as they truly are with a limited human consciousness; such a narrow spectrum of visible light, or a threshold of hearing only within 20 Hz to 20 kHz. What is observable in the Universe is not necessarily the Universe as it truly is.
So I'm still halfway through this I think and I'm gonna find out that there's still no answer so why are you? Why are we paying people to try to define where life started when there is no answer it's an ongoing tax.
If you feel psychologically as if a physical object is Some how more real or objective than indirect subjective detection like Hamiltonian occelating feilds, then it's a personal issue. Xyzt ultimate precision instrument ✝️ keys to the cosmos formulism blue printing triangulated judgment of fossil record evidence pre darwin was this assembly theory. See darwin says single orgin extreme physical lawisms or radical magical matter panspermia Idealistic faith * physical works dualistic taxonomy. Where as X/z astronomical energy density defibrillator source of life info could be milkyway qauzar or a passing magnatar. Y axis earth's elements molecular structures we have a good idea just like 1890s. T epoch window geological cambrian explosion Many different genetic codes of life , many different lines of measure
Logic: The definition of logic in all fields is incorrect, and they are confused and invent terms that describe functions and are merely synonyms and do not describe the mechanism of logic (they do not describe the nature and essence of logic). Logic is more complex than they can imagine and it is not just a word. This universe was built on the basis of the same logic that living organisms like humans use and that is the reason behind what is called science, where human logic is used to understand the logic behind the mathematical formulas that govern this universe (whenever... The better the logic used, the closer to the correct scientific formula). Human logic is a universal logic, such that if humans found a planet with different physical characteristics, human logic could understand the logic behind the scientific formulas that govern that planet. Of course, consciousness type one that humans possess has an important role in this. the Logic behind this universe is highly sophisticated and advanced (reaches perfection), basically without logic nothing that humans see would exist (Logic is a very important and complex topic). for instance mathematics is the symbolic representation of human logic that tries to get closer to the correct scientific formulas that govern this universe. to concise: the ability of human logic that can figure out the the correct scientific formulas that govern this universe never existed by chance.
Why is There Something Rather than Nothing? Existence itself is the base of such a question, basically you wouldn’t ask such a question if you don’t exist ! such a question requires existing conscious entity to pose it . when you dies then nothing exist relating to the vanishing of that conscious entity (such a question requires the existence of conscious entity), (turning data into meaningful information requires intelligent conscious entity to process data to turn it into information). data is everywhere but turning it into meaningful information requires mind (that has to do with the main question). What they said about information is wrong because information doesn’t exist by its own!
Sadly all she searches and requires:REQUIRE human life to define them. Realistically life exsist s without humanity ie Antarctica and other extreme zones where life doesn’t exsacly exsist.
Who wears wired EarPods in 2024? Who wears wired EarPods and has a podcast. It’s a great puzzle indeed. How ancient technology is used for new theories podcast says every thing about the host.
Great segment only marred by the host sucking on a large red bottle. Like motherless calf. Whatever happened to glasses? It has become commonplace to have people on UA-cam using huge containers to keep their drinks cool but it’s so distracting and frankly inconsiderate
Wow, I truly hope that none of my tax money no federal money is going to pay this organization i'm not even halfway through this interview and I am just throwing up all of my floor you mean I can just say I'm a scientist and then I'm looking for structures of this woman is not a doctor. This woman is far as I can tell, has no medical experience at all, I can tell you this when you feel sick. You should stay away from the people I'm 63 and I've never taken any damn shots and I'm healthy. I don't take any prescribed medicine. If a virus hits me. I hope my immune system from God will give me safe if it doesn't then he's gonna take me, I will always tell people when I'm sick which I've always done stay away from me. I'm sick, but this woman is talking about what to do is our tax money which is probably being wasted by an organization like this.
OK, so what's the point? What is the end game? What are we trying to figure out here? I have huge? Let's see when your come to the end of your book. What is the point?
I'm also an exterminator, highly qualified, highly licensed been in your biotech areas taking care of your ants and mice and cockroaches and I probably know more or least. I would think I would put you to a debate. I hope you join because I think I've actually have more information than you doexterminator compared to a tax paid scientist is that what you are or scientist? I'm not sure what you are.
Sara proved to be as brilliant and personable as expected, my impression of Shermer improved as it went on. He managed to ask decent questions, but his overall vibe is still unsettling. It's time for him to step down from his pedestal and learn a little humility. Grow up dude.
Here’s the problem. When you think the Universe is not organismic (alive and conscious at all system levels .. cosmic to individual point of view - body mediated - consciousness) … then of course you assume you have to “make” conscious biology from dead mechanical chemistry. Think about it it’s really simple . We pretty much know the universe grew us all and our environment (the form of the Universe now ) from Big bang plasma via clumping and cooling and interacting .. with some waiting around for 14 billion years. All guided by the shaping informing laws .. the 4 forces .. transcendent geometry/mathematics …all inherent in that 💥 🥚 Cosmic egg. How do you think the Universe could produce a chickens 🐓 egg 🥚from plasma … if the germ of everything that has unfolded in that process .. like the egg and the seed .. where not present in that process from the start . ? It’s likely that the Universe - a vast holon .. like our bodies .. is cyclic .. lives and dies and lives again (there is no real death in the context of the whole .. the ONE. ) Physics will be informed by biology going forward. Materialism is baloney .. as Dr Bernardo Kastrup states in his book of the same name . Consciousness is likely primary . Crazy but likely true just like every pre paradigm shift idea/insight
OK, everything you say with everything you say how is that going to help the people starving today the war veterans that need a home what are you doing? That's going to help humanity to find out where we came from. We came from fish.
What does your theory matter? Is it gonna feed the poor person on the street corner? What does your theory matter? How does that help the human rights in that vast universe that you live in?
What is the taxpayers paying you to do? Why are we funding you? Are you going to tell us in the end? The ketchup runs faster than a 90° angle than a 45° angle what is your point?
This is highly important:“Endless Memory; Mind Reading; Mindfulness | 60 Minutes Full Episodes 60 Minutes”, Perception is the responsibility of consciousness type two that transforms sensory data into partially processed information to be ready to use by consciousness type one, means that self concept already bypass the Limbic system (the details already was written before). it’s the same secret of how some humans are able to retrieve vivid biographical memories, remembering the details of city ,….. etc
Love the way Sara thinks. Fascinating person.
Wow! So much energy and passion. Listening nearly wore me out! Love it. Brilliant!
Amazing talk as always and especially with Sara - a thought provoking thinker!
Very compelling conversation.
In his honest review published on Medium, titled “Life as Everybody Knows It: Book Review of ‘Life As No One Knows It’ by Sara Imari Walker,” Hector Zenil argues that instead of focusing on her own work, Walker devotes most of her book to discussing Leroy (Lee) Cronin's Assembly Theory (AT). AT, a hypothesis about life, has been repeatedly disproven by multiple groups, including Zenil's own team (see various papers by Zenil, such as “On the Salient Limitations of Assembly Theory” and “Assembly Theory is a Weak Version of Algorithmic Complexity Based on LZ Compression That Does Not Explain or Quantify Selection or Evolution”). The book claims AT offers new insights into biology by counting copies from selection to evolution, but this idea had already been explored for decades using more advanced tools, making AT a weaker version of those tools.
Excellent. Requires, for me, another close listen and a book read. Thank you both!
Wow...amazing! Sara is such an awesome thinker! Thanks Michael for being such a knowledgeable host and asking the good questions! Will definitely have to listen to the talk again! Thanks to both of you! 🌿
Wow! What a firecracker 🧨🎆, just ordered her book off Amazon🤗
18:00 I grew up in a young earth creationist household in the 90’s and deeply believed it. I have long felt at odds with Michael but have grown to respect him. I also had parents that understood the importance of truly understanding others perspectives. It was because of this that I did also understand biological evolution and the processes that govern it.
Long story short 18:00 Sarah explains something important to me. As a child I would lay in bed at night and dream about space and the possibilities of life elsewhere. My belief in god did not allow me to imagine natural mechanisms for what could create these creatures outside of “god did it.” I recognized that evolution could explain the emergence of life elsewhere - even though I didn’t believe these mechanisms of evolution were real…I would think about the contrast of Venus earth and mars and think…. Other worlds have different environmental pressures and could develop life in dramatically different ways…. And I would dream of different worlds and their possibilities.
Because of my parent’s influence, I am in the medical field now but what Sarah speaks on is where my passion has always been and at least I can listen and learn from people like her. I’m not even 40 so I guess I could change fields but… just seems like a pipe dream at this point.
remarkably well informed host
@18:30 It's very refreshing to hear an academic who challenges assumptions as freely as Sara does. She is the first physicist I have heard discussing the idea that matter might have properties other than mass and charge (she didn’t mention spin here but I assume she would if asked). In fact, the definition of matter as “any substance that has mass and takes up volume” is almost plucked out of thin air. Where is the experiment showing that matter must have mass? How could there have ever been such an experiment? It must be an assumption and a very limiting one at that. It could be why we have no idea what thoughts might be, for example, and why many people are Dualists by default even though philosophers mostly agree that it’s implausible.
Unlike Sara, I disagree with equating the terms ‘material’ and ‘physical’ for the above reason. Physics can only measure things that have mass, charge and spin but we can’t unequivocally claim that all matter has at least one of those properties. But looking at the possibility of matter outside of the scope of current physics might open up a host of possibilities relating to what life is.
Sara Walker ❤ and my favorite Skeptic. 🔥🔥🔥
Excellent discussion. I love this topic and I so appreciate Michael’s follow up questions- esp regarding teleology, which allowed her to more clearly articulate her ideas, which go deep. Also worth noting: Lee Cronin, whom she mentions a lot, has a few Big Think videos that dropped this week on Assembly Theory, which compliments very well to this discussion. Glad I saw those before watching this talk.
I wanna know what life is.. i want you to show meee
I sung these words instead of read them. Lol
Gotta take a little TIME... a little TIME to think things over 🎶🎶(Earth's perspective)
@douglasmarshall2528 I can't not sing them now haha
I too like Macarena.
Think of 1 hour ago, and then think of the year 1910, about 1000000 hours ago. Then scale up the past day and a half or so. About 40 hours ago. Now about 40 million hours ago Dynastic Egyptians were building the Pyramids of Giza, and these hours are counting, so many are that many million. Enough. Mars zero oxygen water no fucking chance of anything, humans are doomed grandiose idiots. correct me if I'm wrong..🎉🎉😮
there was important information about how voluntary actions take place in the brain, especially how humans wake up (voluntarily using consciousness type two instead of consciousness type one), the location of the area responsible for that Voluntary action in the brain was mentioned too. that’s highly important too.
Researchers have demonstrated that Assembly Theory (AT) is equivalent to existing work like Shannon entropy and LZ compression, without proper citation. AT is also a weaker version of these established concepts, highlighting the importance of not exaggerating intended scientific work, especially if it is not original and does not explain what its authors claim it to explain. More recently, Dr. Hector Zenil's review of Sara Walker's book "The Physics of Life's Emergence" (published on Medium and titled: "Book Review: Life As No One Knows It by Sara Imari Walker") reveals it as largely promoting AT, a disproven hypothesis based on chemist Leroy Cronin's ideas. The book misrepresents prior work, misunderstands fundamental concepts, and presents flawed ideas as revolutionary, ultimately a self-promotion exercise rather than a substantive scholarly contribution.
Academic publications include a paper in npj Systems Biology and Applications: "On the salient limitations of the methods of assembly theory and their classification of molecular biosignatures" and another in the arXiv: "Assembly Theory is a weak version of algorithmic complexity based on LZ compression that does not explain or quantify selection or evolution".
Put a sock in it.
1:01:30 I absolutely loved this 😂 Sara is amazing
Amazing video. So many new ideas I heard ..
i like the freedom of thought;
i don't like the limiting of thought;
except when i'm not myself;
I love Sara her mind is amazing
At 1:131:00 Sara gives the example of onset of life as an example when talking about abrupt onset of consciousness, which seems to contradict her earlier discussion that life may be a continuum - chemistry - organics chemistry - amino acids - rpoteins- RNA/ - DNA - viruses - unicellular life. Also her insisting that we do not know what life is if not 100% accurate. We know a lot. A clarification of that will be helpful.
@SandipChitale , I know what life is. I can send you the answer after we work out Paypal / Venmo details.
"Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generated action" - Ayn Rand quote. Good definition. There are always boundary cases to every concept and definition, a boundary case does not invalidate a concept, if so no concepts would be valid at all.
13:50 "life is a process" they say. Yeah Rand said this 50, years ago.
Except viruses and parasites are not self sustaining
This is much easier to comprehend: this universe built based on a specific advanced Logic, and living intelligent entities in this universe must possess or equipped with the same logic that was behind the building of this universe to be able to understand it.
Love Dr Walker ❤️
questions: so if life is about the push of selection through time leading inexorably toward complexity, why do the most ancient and simple organisms (like archaebacteria) still exist? likewise if consciousness and free will are the product of the same processes, why aren’t archaebacteria conscious and exercising free will?
Mathematics is just a quantitative tool, it's not a component of matter. The mechanisms of life are solely the product of matter; thus, the structure of matter is where we need to look first to understand how life is able to form from it. Presently, the nature of particles and ultimately matter is not understood in mainstream science, it’s only seen, but what is not seen is its underlying structure, that is, its causation and internal properties, such as, what is the actual substance that composes a particles essence. For those of you who say quarks compose particles; that neglects the question, what is the underlying essence composing those quarks which are just smaller particles. To answer what is the definition of life, we first must definitively decipher what is the essence that composes particles. To answer this question, we must start by defining what composes the volume of space itself, since all things exist within space, and ultimately, must be a byproduct of space, since it has to exist first for things to exist within it. Since the volume of space has three spatial properties, and tangible properties can’t exist without a substantive causation, its physical existence is paramount in the question. As well, since space has to exist first, then everything must come from it, there simply is nowhere else for things to come from. Let’s talk about it…
Interesting. There was a mention that we humans "fill in blanks" when we don't understand things that don't have current explanations. By theorising intangibles via science are we not doing the same albeit more intelligently? Until substantiated one might say so have "faith".☺
I think that this is much easier to understand: self concept is the responsible for the whole processes that take place in the brain (including generating both personal identity, consciousness type one) and consciousness type two is responsible for processing sensory data including visual sensory data, that’s why some humans can bypass the Limbic system to retrieve memories (consciousness type two is involved in the working mechanism of the Limbic system but it can bypass that), consciousness type two is just an important part of self concept and responsible for processing and monitoring vital processes (plays essential role in those processes). consciousness type two plays a main role in the advanced sophisticated processes of cerebellum too. consciousness type one and type two are similar in some aspects but consciousness type two is far more advanced in some specific processes.
Very very long stable or slowly enough changing (temperate) environment where complexity can sustain (naturally), and the change is slow enough that it does not disrupt the complexity build up, the emergence of life may be an imperative. And for this we do not need to have new physics like Sara claims at around 1:36:00. In other words sustained complexity over time may be that secret sauce. Of course, by necessity the environment needs to have available, constituent parts that can form complex things. Imagine if earth only had Helium, life (likely) would not have formed. Carbon chemistry happens to provide that ability (fortunately).
This was a good one.
Great vid. You will find the origin of life at the end of life🙏
I pray you will open your mind
@@mattborowy9019 m
@@mattborowy9019 hi, why would I want to complicate what I believe that is true about the OOL
I think that this better definition of Mathematics: Mathematics is the symbolic representation of human logic that tries to reach the correct scientific formulas on which this universe was built, and humans use evidence. scientific methodology, experiments,…etc to reach that goal. There is a misunderstanding regarding deduction, inference, .. etc and their relationship to logic.
You can only define something when you understand its fundamentals; otherwise, you're merely guessing. Life and its origins are complex, having developed over hundreds of millions of years through numerous stages and processes about which we know little or nothing.
When inanimate matter becomes animated, for whatever reason, that's life.
Define animated.
A little simplistic for me. Flowing rivers are animated. Planets orbiting stars are animated. My understanding of the definition of life is molecules arranged in a manner able to replicate.
Don't be obtuse
Assembly theory is a concept from theoretical physics and chemistry that aims to quantify the complexity of structures by measuring the number of steps or "assembly actions" required to build them. The theory is used to understand the emergence of complex molecules, systems, or patterns, particularly in the context of distinguishing between natural and artificial structures, or between simple and complex chemical compounds.
### Key Points of Assembly Theory:
1. **Assembly Index**: This is the core measure in assembly theory. It quantifies the minimum number of steps needed to construct a given structure from simpler building blocks. The higher the assembly index, the more complex the structure.
2. **Application to Origin of Life**: One of the primary applications of assembly theory is in the study of the origin of life. By applying the assembly index to different molecules, scientists can differentiate between those that are likely the result of biological processes and those that are not, potentially identifying signatures of life.
3. **Distinguishing Complexity**: Assembly theory helps in distinguishing between simple and complex molecules or systems. It suggests that highly complex molecules (those with a high assembly index) are unlikely to form by random processes alone and might be indicative of life or advanced technology.
4. **Potential Use in Astrobiology**: The theory has implications for astrobiology, where it might help identify biosignatures in extraterrestrial environments by analyzing the complexity of detected molecules.
Assembly theory offers a novel approach to understanding and quantifying complexity in natural and artificial systems, with broad implications for fields ranging from chemistry to the study of life in the universe.--Chat GPT
It's old darwin drowned it out greater world didn't believe undesirable eccentric fundamentalist Christian separatist puritan pilgrim was gonna build a beast of burden.
They hated blue print formulism challenging ore 1500s out of context affinitys.
Everyone is to look for
X/z astronomical energy density defibrillator source
Y earth's elements molecular structures fairly known
T order of magnitude scaled thermodynamical epochs
& geological decay WINDOW cambrian explosion of life epochs
Information is not a THING. Information is a set of descriptions we use to communicate about things.
Disagree. In physics, information is defined as the way particles are arranged.
@@SchroderCat hence, a description of the way particles are arranged.
That's why phylosphers or theologians like darwin are supposed to Triangulate what the sources of info are in this blue prints formulism.
All of this is known to esoterica America it all falls out in the quest for eqaul measure to know all things.
Your not supposed to teach men.myths or over fund.or lobby them shouting down the entire academic excersize to find out .
I can only tell you 15th 16th English hue =wavelength spectrum in human and our eccentric fundamentalist Christian separatist puritan pilgrim ancestors who dug up first archeology fossils
Would have this formilism xyzt longitude latitude ultimate precision instrument ✝️
Triangulate thermodynamical systems
The x/z astronomical energy density defibrillator source could be milkyway qauzar or passing magnatar
Y axis earth's elements molecular structures is all darwin and greater world taxonomical pre 1500s world or babylonian evolutionary mythology
T epoch window geological decay WINDOW cambrian explosion epoch.
15th century when newton copy's underground movement that made up most of early America they knew then we would build a future beast of burden robot slave and horsepower utility of cpu serfdom it drove Williams tyndales to seek perfect alignments in language for king James English puritan encoded and for even mark twain to go pilgrimage confirm & help perfect ultimate precision instruments tuned weights and measure in history nature nations universe language etc etc
It just so happens classical American serfs & slaves alike decants ancestors was taught all of this even in 1820s.
Math mapping blue prints when affinity like dualistic taxonomy gets in the way of progress you do like Descartes you move them encrypted into mind / body or dualistic brain hemisphere y axis prenticious clocklike views that our eyes see .
Her point is not that information is a thing, it's that information has to be ABOUT things, so without things there would be no information
Dope bubble necklace. Or is it part of the top? 😎
"Inflation doesn't exist in my life" How nice for you. It very much exists in most peoples lives.
very likely this universe built based on one indivisible unit and that’s the secret behind so-called fine structure constant and some other constants to maintain its structure and integrity, and that’s the secret behind the strong connections between subatomic and cosmological levels. Dirac had the right to wonder.
Life! = Invisible dynamism becoming visible to the point it becomes personal an even worse, a person. Word, person signifies crystal clearly another very but very interesting word, called...MASK! OUCH! This definitely hurts.
You know human thoughts (part of them were written on this UA-cam channel), the rest was deleted purposely such as human thoughts on closer to truth UA-cam channel,….etc
Maybe the problem is how chemicals interact and when does it become living. Maybe I should continue listening.
Wow, she just actually mentioned that I don't have a brain
22:45 These are human thoughts: What can create life on planet Earth can create it on different planets with different requirements, and the concept of life is not linked to the existence of DNA,…. Etc. All of this was written several years ago in detail, and they collected all human thoughts with the aim of stealing and polluting them.
How to reconcile belief that there isn't irreducible anything while accepting that there is information loss and some version of obscurity beyond measurement of histories? Is this a counter-cum-religious comment of hubris about measurement and that some day somehow everything can be measured and all initials accounted for? It seemed earlier in the conversation by the meteor molecule diversity example it was accepted that combinatorial space is so vast that repeating even if possible doesn't guarantee any prior assembly piece being more than temporary and dropped as folded-in at an emergence to what Wolfram would say IS irreducible unless you can account for all histories to that point?
Wow, we met because of a universe situation like oh the plans are this is the people my tax money is going to
She's so cool smart hot and wacko half her stuff is completely nuts the rest brilliant
🤔 - How much does it cost ? 🤔
Aristotle couldn't look out the window because there were no windows at his time.
Both consciousness type one and type two are just a tools within more complex systems (self concept plays the main role), when you dream, in fact you use consciousness type two not type one (consciousness type one is the one you use right now), how can you recognise (realise) right now? you use consciousness type one to accomplish that, but when you are sleeping you disconnect from consciousness type one and consciousness type two takes place even though it’s always on to monitor the vital functions). consciousness type two is highly sophisticated and advanced, it plays a main role in perception and the functions of cerebellum,…. etc. the details already was written years ago, and some groups of irrational criminal thieves already have stolen and polluted all that in addition to individual thieves. I wrote only for the sake of future generations of mankind only (human thoughts are the exclusive properties of future generations of mankind only and no one has the right to steal and pollute them in anyway). to concise: what generates both personal identity and consciousness type one is self concept but consciousness of type two is part of self concept.
The definition of Science is incorrect too, similar to the definition of Logic (the describe how they should approach Science based on their current limited knowledge but they don’t describe the essence of Science itself).
Well, she keeps saying, we make, we inject, we build that is artificial life...that does not answer or come close to learning how life might have happened or how the origin of life could've happened. So if your point is in what we can make, then what or whom directed or made molacles that dont create life on its own create the information for molacles into a cell a living cell not alge?
Wow reading a lot of comments from dudes that didn't have the balls to write the book Sara did and I would wager that none of them are named after a port in Japan.
Any living entity that sleeps has a level of consciousness type one. On planet Earth, the living being that belongs to planet Earth and has the highest level of consciousness type one is the human being. The fact that all living organisms on planet Earth share the same biological and genetic characteristics is due to the fact that all living organisms on planet Earth originate from the same life cycle of planet Earth, and not necessarily that all living organisms on planet Earth necessarily originated from one source (one root). It is possible for life to arise on other planets under biological conditions and characteristics different from the biological conditions and characteristics of living organisms on planet Earth. This was also written several years ago and the irrational thieves worked to steal it and pollute it as well (to issue contaminated copies of the thoughts of rational intelligent human entity). that means it’s possible to find other intelligent entities that have completely different biological and genetic characteristics than living entities on planet earth. it’s possible for other rational intelligent entities of alien origin to contaminate the life cycle of planet earth. in addition to that it’s possible for humans to find other living entities structurally similar to living entities on Earth, such as insects, animals, and plants, but humans would not be able to eat them (meaning they would not be able to enter them in the food chain of humans ).
What is life? (Life)...is simply a word, that is composed by 4 letters which becomes even more convoluted when another word like, personal, is put right before it to create the words; personal & life. Now, taking away the word, and, and creating the small sentence showing, only the words, personal life, is actually where the entire conundrum begins. Now, what's even more interesting is what creates these 2 words, which is, LANGUAGE! Which mysteriously precedes matter & all lifeforms which r bizarrely, 2 more words. Hmm! I believe that what needs to b scrutinized here is what language really is. It seems to b the incognito culprit hidden behind all this phenomenal activity that appears to appear as life or some sort of animating activity that appears to b happening to people but that ostensibly is not. This brutal obviousness seems at times unimpeachable. An interesting analogy would b that aliveness or impersonal life is analog activity & personal life is digital activity or even worse, ontological activity or real activity & epistemological activity or technological vs natural. When perceptional activity operates at personal levels, there is a massive possibility that whatever information is happening apparently here can easily b misinterpreted by following or reinforcing opionated activity that has being deeply rooted on conjectures. Of course, these will b just words happening which unfortunately have been directly responsible for historical records of apparently individual bodies interacting with an environment that appears to b operating at collective levels not even once recognizing autonomous entities dreaming the nightmare that has been defined & put in dictionaries all over this holographic global party, called, FREE WILL.
👏👏👏
At 1:04:00 there is a discussion about evolution and teleology. I also understand (strategically) why Sara talks in teleological tone about it. Teleology definitely has a wider appeal - even to the non-scientific crowd. And in fact in most of the science, teleology is resisted and teleology is preferred. But it is the same mistake as the following:
- Copenhagen interpretation saying that consciousness is NEEDED the collapse of quantum wave function. Sure it was innocent talk among physicists. Look at what the woo crowd has done with that. Scientists may think that Woo crowd is friendly to them because they like scientists ideas, but make no mistake. They ultimate goal is to overthrow scientific approach. The first chance they get they will attack science. Read Adam Baker's book "What is real?" about this topic.
- The non-computation consciousness talk by Roger Penrose is similarly, inadvertently causes harm to the science. Orch OR theory due to Roger and Stuart says that collapse of quantum wave function in microtubules causes consciousness. The reason is that Roger says that consciousness is non-computational. Sure. But what he means by that is consciousness is non-CLASSICAL-computational. Meaning, it may be quantum computational. Therefore the connection to collapse of quantum wave function in microtubules etc. But we have to remember two things:
- quantum physics is physics, thus Orch OR is a physicalist theory. Nothing woo.
- The following two are exactly opposite in terms of CAUSE -> EFFECT relationship:
- Collapse of quantum wave function (CAUSE) causes consciousness (EFFECT)
- Consciousness (CAUSE) causes collapse of quantum wave function (EFFECT) - Part of Copenhagen interpretation which is no longer considered true by science.
The woo crowd conveniently conflates these two opposite ideas.
Sara needs to be mindful of the same conflation on her poetic use of teleological language when talking about evolution. Thanks Michael for alerting Sara about the perils of teleological talk at 1:13:00 .
Hmmm... 10:40 I am surprised to hear Sara juxtapose - reductionism and (weak) emergence as opposite. They are not. They are two sides of the same coin. The so-called strong emergence is another story.
And it is more surprising because the qualitative nature of assembly theory which she proposes is of the reductive (parts of assembly - atoms and molecules) -emergent (their assembly) nature.
And we do not have to give an example of life for reductionism vs emergence. A simple example is:
- hydrogen is not wet and liquid at room temperature - we know why from atomic properties of hydrogen
- oxygen is not wet and liquid at room temperature - we know why from atomic properties of hydrogen
H2O i.e. water
- is wet
- is liquid
so wetness is a emergent property, but we know why. We know how the bonds in H2O molecules are formed. We know the remain very weak charge. We know the angle of the bonds in H2O molecules (104.5 degrees). We know H2O molecules are hydrophilic at room temperature, because of the very small leftover charge on the molecules. Which is why they slide past each other making them liquid. It also allows easy evaporation giving it cooling effect and thus wetness. And we know how all this happens because of atomic properties of each H and O. This is an example where reductionism and emergence are two sides of the same coin.
I think you are wrong about neurons don't know what they are doing and just randomly mulling around. In fact they are are programed and have a mission to connect to another neuron, thats what they do, they connect to offload and upload. They are programmed to do only that.thats their job.
This is very important:“Endless Memory; Mind Reading; Mindfulness | 60 Minutes Full Episodes
60 Minutes”, Perception is the responsibility of consciousness type two that transforms sensory data into partially processed information to be ready to use by consciousness type one, it’s about brainstem Limbic system cortex, actually self concept bypasses the Limbic system in this case, that was about how consciousness type two process visual sensory data in the occipital lobe (a group of thieves already started to steal and pollute that), and how some humans can remember the fine details of books they read or a scene of a city that painter can draw in details, and why future generations of mankind must understand the working mechanism of the Limbic system (it’s a weak point), and why humans can express rational emotions and thoughts without the need to Limbic system. it’s highly important that all I have written reaches future generations of mankind clean and intact (they will need all that to survive as rational intelligent human entities, it’s a matter of survival for them).
Wow, she just actually mentioned that I don't have a brain by meaning of most people don't understand. I am most people and I'm sorry ma'am but I do understand. I would like to know how you're being paid. I know you work for working hard and paying taxes and I need roads fixed. Why am I actually needing you to talk about, bio disease getting out of doctor and I'm not sick and I'm not taking a shot
Carbon chauvinism for naturally evolving complexity is not as bad as it sounds. The reason is because in a natural, un-directed context it seems to be true for the stable conditions found on earth which fortunately have not been very very very wildly varyings in a disconteneous fashion (except for the asteroid strike that killed dinosaurs or the Theia colliding with the Earth to create the moon) , the choice of nature to use carbon chemistry seems - well - natural. And yes, once the un-directed natural process using carbon chemistry builds the intelligent lifeforms like humans, then for that stage we need not be carbon chauvinistic. We are starting to enter that stage now with LLMs running on silicon based chips - potentially exhibiting consciousness and rational thoughts and reasoning. Now we are off to races. Buy why? Because to enter the assembly space above 15 assembly number using non-organic strategy requires directed, engineered approach, which humans are now capable.
Sara pegs the Assembly number for life to be above 15 or so. And I am willing to bet that the assembly number phase space for values above 15 is dominated by organic molecules (assuming undirected, natural context).
BTW had life formed on the Earth before the Theia collision event happened? What is the timeline for that? Anyone has any idea?
You didn’t delete human thoughts unlike Khun the pimp !
I would say that life is that which is made from cells.
Anything without cells isn't life or alive.
Sarah is nit only clearly intelligent but us rather beautiful too.
Sadly, for myself at least, I see she wears a ring, lol! 😂😢
Discussion at 16:20 - it is not that we take any two random unknown things and say that they are connected. There are many unknown things But as we all know there is a very specific social phenomenon about connecting consciousness with quantum. There are may social reasons for this:
- Hollywood has made the word quantum a super cool word (remember quantum leap). It also has the ring of other cool word like flux capacitor, onmidirectional phasor blaster etc etc
- Dancing woo lee masters etc have caught peoples imagination.
but more importantly:
- unfortunately the Copenhagen interpretation crowd says that consciousness is needed for collapsing wave function. This is no longer believed by scientists but it has stuck in the popular imagination. The woo crowd loves this. More on this below.
- woo crowd is sheepishly aware of their wooness and are eager to give a patina of scientificness to their woo theories and conflate scientific ideas with their woo ideas. Unfortunately sloppy talk by people like Penrose's Orch OR is conveniently exploited and co-opted by woo crowd to ride Roger's scientific credentials/coat tails.
Roger says that consciousness is non-computational. OK. Maybe. Stephen Wolfram probably disagrees with that. In any case, what he means by that is that consciousness is not classically computational. He along with Stuart Hameroff says that collapse of quantum wave function in microtubules (CAUSE) causes consciousness (EFFECT). Meaning that consciousness is not classical computational, but is quantum computational. OK. Fine. But woo crowd intentionally conflates it with the exact opposite idea that consciousness (CAUSE) causes collapse of the quantum wave function (EFFECT). See the CAUSE -> EEFFCT relationship is exact opposite between these two ideas.
- collapse of quantum wave function in microtubules (CAUSE) causes consciousness (EFFECT) - is a completely physicalist idea. Woo crowd conveniently forgets that quantum physics is physics.
- consciousness (CAUSE) causes collapse of the quantum wave function (EFFECT) - is opposite of the above and is a woo idea
I find her dismissal of Avi Loeb, because he needs to have an explanation for why alien life would look like it does, is reflective of her own field of research limiting her imagination.
You don't need an explanation for something to notice it. Hence most of astrophysics.
Her perception is "if I can't explain it, then it doesn't exist".
10:30 Materialism hasn’t work in the past!
Isn’t that weird and new ?! What happened?!
Materialism is the only thing that has worked. Look around you at the world.
@@karagi101 If you believe that, then take the argument up with Sara Walker. Materialism doesn't work because matter is just an illusion.
@@southernsaintmusic What’s your evidence that it’s an illusion? Is your home and are your relatives an illusion too?
@@karagi101 The evidence is all around you. Look at all studies of consciousness and the various conclusions and theories of a 'holographic universe' or a 'simulation', a 'hallucination' or what is most accurate: an illusion. You don't see things as they truly are with a limited human consciousness; such a narrow spectrum of visible light, or a threshold of hearing only within 20 Hz to 20 kHz. What is observable in the Universe is not necessarily the Universe as it truly is.
@@southernsaintmusic Yes. Our human senses are limited. We therefore use instruments. With these instruments our universe is not invisible
Abiogenesis is impossible.
I heard the things those two guys said and I dont trust them
So I'm still halfway through this I think and I'm gonna find out that there's still no answer so why are you? Why are we paying people to try to define where life started when there is no answer it's an ongoing tax.
She lost me when she said she was a materialist and said all the non-physical stuff was undiscoverable 😢
If you feel psychologically as if a physical object is Some how more real or objective than indirect subjective detection like Hamiltonian occelating feilds, then it's a personal issue.
Xyzt ultimate precision instrument ✝️ keys to the cosmos formulism blue printing triangulated judgment of fossil record evidence pre darwin was this assembly theory.
See darwin says single orgin extreme physical lawisms or radical magical matter panspermia
Idealistic faith * physical works dualistic taxonomy.
Where as
X/z astronomical energy density defibrillator source of life info could be milkyway qauzar or a passing magnatar.
Y axis earth's elements molecular structures we have a good idea just like 1890s.
T epoch window geological cambrian explosion
Many different genetic codes of life , many different lines of measure
Logic: The definition of logic in all fields is incorrect, and they are confused and invent terms that describe functions and are merely synonyms and do not describe the mechanism of logic (they do not describe the nature and essence of logic). Logic is more complex than they can imagine and it is not just a word. This universe was built on the basis of the same logic that living organisms like humans use and that is the reason behind what is called science, where human logic is used to understand the logic behind the mathematical formulas that govern this universe (whenever... The better the logic used, the closer to the correct scientific formula). Human logic is a universal logic, such that if humans found a planet with different physical characteristics, human logic could understand the logic behind the scientific formulas that govern that planet. Of course, consciousness type one that humans possess has an important role in this. the Logic behind this universe is highly sophisticated and advanced (reaches perfection), basically without logic nothing that humans see would exist (Logic is a very important and complex topic). for instance mathematics is the symbolic representation of human logic that tries to get closer to the correct scientific formulas that govern this universe. to concise: the ability of human logic that can figure out the the correct scientific formulas that govern this universe never existed by chance.
Why is There Something Rather than Nothing? Existence itself is the base of such a question, basically you wouldn’t ask such a question if you don’t exist ! such a question requires existing conscious entity to pose it . when you dies then nothing exist relating to the vanishing of that conscious entity (such a question requires the existence of conscious entity), (turning data into meaningful information requires intelligent conscious entity to process data to turn it into information). data is everywhere but turning it into meaningful information requires mind (that has to do with the main question).
What they said about information is wrong because information doesn’t exist by its own!
Astro biologist? 🤔😵💫😉
Sadly all she searches and requires:REQUIRE human life to define them. Realistically life exsist s without humanity ie Antarctica and other extreme zones where life doesn’t exsacly exsist.
Who wears wired EarPods in 2024? Who wears wired EarPods and has a podcast. It’s a great puzzle indeed. How ancient technology is used for new theories podcast says every thing about the host.
1st
She didn’t give one single proper answer
Great segment only marred by the host sucking on a large red bottle. Like motherless calf. Whatever happened to glasses? It has become commonplace to have people on UA-cam using huge containers to keep their drinks cool but it’s so distracting and frankly inconsiderate
Obviously, Sara is a smart lady but her explanations/thoughts are too long winded for me.
Was just measure at what degree ketchup runs
Wow, I truly hope that none of my tax money no federal money is going to pay this organization i'm not even halfway through this interview and I am just throwing up all of my floor you mean I can just say I'm a scientist and then I'm looking for structures of this woman is not a doctor. This woman is far as I can tell, has no medical experience at all, I can tell you this when you feel sick. You should stay away from the people I'm 63 and I've never taken any damn shots and I'm healthy. I don't take any prescribed medicine. If a virus hits me. I hope my immune system from God will give me safe if it doesn't then he's gonna take me, I will always tell people when I'm sick which I've always done stay away from me. I'm sick, but this woman is talking about what to do is our tax money which is probably being wasted by an organization like this.
Do these people actually isten to what they're saying? Does a tree shit in the woods?
OK, so what's the point? What is the end game? What are we trying to figure out here? I have huge? Let's see when your come to the end of your book. What is the point?
OK, I'm not a genius, but I can't watch this anymore
I'm also an exterminator, highly qualified, highly licensed been in your biotech areas taking care of your ants and mice and cockroaches and I probably know more or least. I would think I would put you to a debate. I hope you join because I think I've actually have more information than you doexterminator compared to a tax paid scientist is that what you are or scientist? I'm not sure what you are.
Sara proved to be as brilliant and personable as expected, my impression of Shermer improved as it went on. He managed to ask decent questions, but his overall vibe is still unsettling. It's time for him to step down from his pedestal and learn a little humility. Grow up dude.
Is she single?
Here’s the problem.
When you think the Universe is not organismic (alive and conscious at all system levels .. cosmic to individual point of view - body mediated - consciousness) … then of course you assume you have to “make” conscious biology from dead mechanical chemistry.
Think about it it’s really simple . We pretty much know the universe grew us all and our environment (the form of the Universe now ) from Big bang plasma via clumping and cooling and interacting .. with some waiting around for 14 billion years. All guided by the shaping informing laws .. the 4 forces .. transcendent geometry/mathematics …all inherent in that 💥 🥚 Cosmic egg.
How do you think the Universe could produce a chickens 🐓 egg 🥚from plasma … if the germ of everything that has unfolded in that process .. like the egg and the seed .. where not present in that process from the start . ?
It’s likely that the Universe - a vast holon .. like our bodies .. is cyclic .. lives and dies and lives again (there is no real death in the context of the whole .. the ONE. )
Physics will be informed by biology going forward.
Materialism is baloney .. as Dr Bernardo Kastrup states in his book of the same name .
Consciousness is likely primary .
Crazy but likely true just like every pre paradigm shift idea/insight
Am I right we came by we came by way of fish. There was a big explosion. The dinosaurs were gone and animals were born. That's what we come from.
OK, everything you say with everything you say how is that going to help the people starving today the war veterans that need a home what are you doing? That's going to help humanity to find out where we came from. We came from fish.
And I really hope my taxpayer money is not going to this organization
What does your theory matter? Is it gonna feed the poor person on the street corner? What does your theory matter? How does that help the human rights in that vast universe that you live in?
Yeah, just desperately seeking Susan in the idea of the movie is that you never know so what's the point?
Questions and deep thoughts and we're supposed to pay you for questions and deep thoughts. I'm not digging it sorry girl.
How about this we don't care I certainly hope my tax money is not going to pay for this research
Shermer the Scientific deceiver
Jealous that he's way smarter than you??
😂
Frankiecal3186 the science illiterate.
@@SchroderCatYou're too gay for him
What is the taxpayers paying you to do? Why are we funding you? Are you going to tell us in the end? The ketchup runs faster than a 90° angle than a 45° angle what is your point?
Zzz
This is highly important:“Endless Memory; Mind Reading; Mindfulness | 60 Minutes Full Episodes
60 Minutes”, Perception is the responsibility of consciousness type two that transforms sensory data into partially processed information to be ready to use by consciousness type one, means that self concept already bypass the Limbic system (the details already was written before). it’s the same secret of how some humans are able to retrieve vivid biographical memories, remembering the details of city ,….. etc