In the sheer audacity to cheat, they've created the hell they belong to; they cannot leave until one wins the roll off, they cannot change dice, they cannot throw the game at roll off, stuck in the forever roll off
First off, you can’t give Tau players hope and then take it away. That’s GWs job. Beyond that. It’s perfectly ok to ask to roll an opponents dice a few times.
I mean look at the rules where like you have to select unit and get a +1 but then you CAN'T shoot anything else unless -1 it's like WTF. Are tau at least 3+ BS now ? like with all the hoop and shit they got to go to get this +1 certainly the excuse of "but they can get +1 easily so they don't need to have baseline shooting stats on their FULLY ranged army" isn't staying right?
Honestly, some of this falls on the community for their historically lax treatment of cheaters. We all have seen this happen and you can tell the difference between a person being new and making mistakes and a veteran who seems to always make only mistakes that benefit them. Speak up if someone is cheating, let people know so they dont waste hours of their life with a cheater.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me one hundred times, win GT without even slap on the wrist. I don't think we should 100% ban people for life for any "cheating" (honest mistakes do happen), but red list of players that are known to cheat multiple times should be public. And then we can take actions. For example it's harder to wiggle out of cheating when your game is live streamed, and even basic phone camera can do it half-decent.
Sad part is everyone has a cheating story, It needs to be called out every time or every future player will have one So lame as well, it's toy soldiers and there is no meaningful prize
I recently played in my first tournament and one of my opponents "cheated" by playing engage on all fronts wrong and when I questioned him on it he told me "Oh no you're right". I never checked, turned out after he checked he was still playing it wrong. By this stage I didn't care. At the end of the day its a game of toy soldiers and if he's pathetic enough to need to cheat to validate his life choices so be it. To his credit he did report to the TOs the next day that he realised he'd played it wrong and asked to give me the win. That takes a big man in my book. Not all cheaters do it on purpose I suppose. The guy in this video is pure scum however
This is a big oof for FLG. 3 TO-s to manage 107 tables is insane. The number of the players participating should be limited by the number of TOs available to adjudicate. By all means, the cheater should be held accountable and banned from Warhammer, but FLG should at least issue formal apologies to the players who had to play him and return their entry fees.
I think thats the craziest part of this whole story. For our event we had 2 judges for 22 tables which felt pretty good and allowed judge calls to be resolved quickly. I cant imagine the wait time for a judge when theres only 3 for 107 tables.
@@hansyolo8277 Have you been to an event like this? There's no way that judges can monitor every game. And even if they could, the amount of information you have to internalize to actually be able to detect cheating is massive. No one has every index card memorized. The truth is that this problem has no practical solution.
@@asbrozek64 I'm more referring to the stated issues of basic procedure, like infractions being recorded, not being done. So yes, they overworked the judges and a shitty job was done.
@@Rothana76 everyone makes that excuse but how many top events are they winning? How many marine armies are we seeing in top 3s, even top 10s? They had a one trick in desolators but that's already been nerfed. They're mid at best.
@@kilamandarosi think marines can do amazing things with adaptive strategy, squad tactics, and rites of battle. They are much better than people give them credit for. Desolation at 240 was just a crutch there is no way they should've been 240. The faction is good, not broken like aeldari but good
Its a big part of why 40k as a competitive thing is a joke besides the heinous balancing. Our treatment of literal cheaters is so bad. How is Alex Harrison still allowed to compete at events as an example? Throw the book at this guy. And Harrison. And Lannigan. The whole lot of em. We need better standards. Ive had cases of being cheated against personally but "theres no possible way that could happen, I know him, he's a nice guy! And plus, the effort he put into this army" said the judge and so on. We need proper infraction procedure and real penalties for this stuff.
TJ had a ban and came back and has to go way above and beyond everytime he plays now with cards and tokens for everything, basically any etiquette or good play he goes above and beyond now and any rules interactions will take the negative if RAW vs RAI. the TO that got him banned to begin with was the first to accept him back under conditions. We give literal murderers second chances, i think we can give people second chances with toy soldiers. Harrison though ive heard is much more of a overbearing bully than a cheat these days, hes a big guy and knows it, throwing your weight around at a table is also just as bad as cheating imo and needs to be yellow carded, hard to prove though.
I played him too at BAO 2023 and SoCal 2021. He also rolled a six twice, we tied first roll, to go first in our game, too. Although he used a weird tray he never used again after the roll to go first then. Had issues with him at SoCal 2021 such as dice manipulation and fudging rules, and I'm shocked how much Frontline just ignores with this guy. He basically ruined the top 20 placing at BAO 2023 as well.
As a Tau player, this really bugs me, cuz I feel like it's going to paint a bad picture of Tau players in general, when so many people hate us already! I hope this guy gets banned for life!
I have read a few comments about this "paint a bad picture of Tau players" and where does that come from. I wont judge you for playing Tau just because some idiot cheated playing a tau army. I judge that player what ever army he does play. If any one judges you for playing your army, based on some other dude who cheated playing that the same army, then i would call that person who judge you an idiot. Play your army, don't cheat and every one should be happy playing with you.
Even if he played legit and went 6-0 people would still use that to say Tau are fine, or overpowered even. The Tau hate doesn't come from a rational place, it's personal bias, because the people who play Warhammer are too socially-stunted and immature to handle the concept of something just not being their thing, and double-digit IQs.
This is crazy. They just need to ban the guy like the other tournaments. I think the smaller ones must have caught him more easily because it's a smaller atmosphere but apparently at this big event you can sort of hide out. Probably not enough judges to go around.
I went to an FLG ATO 2023 event there were about 150 tables and like 4-5 Judges? Way too few for that many people ( luckily nobody seemed to be cheating and I had a Great time)
Even the people caught on camera (see TJ lanigan fabricator forge gt april) get a slap on the wrist, he was the top ITC player too. Imagine how much more he cheated before getting caught. Now hes winning GTs again....eyeroll
Front Line Gaming gets money from cheaters and honest players both. They don't care about the results, they get the money whether the cheater wins the tournament or not.
While I am no longer a fan of Magic: the Gathering, I think 40k could benefit from implementing the Infraction Procedure Guide (IPG) where there is a clear reporting system built into the Tournament software that allows easily to track when infractions have been made over the course of the event, and across events and circuits(s)
I was at LSO If anyone is like “why not just call a judge”; I can confirm there was like 4 judges total for the entire 40k even of 230 ish players. The one time my opponent and I called a judge, took like 5 minutes to get to us.
One other potential rule violation is the Tau For The Greater Good rule can't be used to benefit indirect fire. The target unit must be visible to both the observer and guided unit.
I have been to many FLG events were this gentleman has placed extremely well in most of them. This also including the BAO and him crushing my good friend at his first ever tournament in an RTT at LVO earlier this year. My friend was playing custodes and this was his first ever big event and stated that he was having trouble understanding terrain rules and this, as he so valiantly exclaimed “top 10 Tau player” proceeded to make him deploy completely out of cover as he tabled him bottom of turn 3. An incredible experience for a new player at an RTT single elim event.
This is why my friends and I just play with each other. Nearly every time I’ve tried playing with randos at the flgs I always seem to get cheaters or people who misremember basic rules.
I fully understand the frustration of playing Abilez, I ended up playing him at my first LVO knowing who he was. I almost took a yellow card for making his game a pain since he didn’t want to cooperate and verify rules when I asked for them.
Are you scared to tell a judge he's not playing properly? Like I don't understand the issue. You can't go to a T.O or anyone and point it out? Isn't that the whole point of them being there?
@@chromehunter2074 I did in fact do this, but by conduct I was on the border of weaponizing a judge which would get me kicked from the event. He played the victim very well and convinced the tables next to us that I was the troublemaker is how it effectively worked out
@@Zuggog_The_Janitor so, basically you made it everyone else's problem. And so did his 6 other opponents. So, is it that easy to bully a win? Just show up and say I win and it'll happen at all of these events?
@@chromehunter2074 How could you even come to the conclusion that I made it everyone else’s problem? I played him in the third round which means he walloped two other folks before me. I made sure to keep him honest as possible and some still slipped through. There is a difference in calling over a judge for rule’s verification and for blatant cheating, was I probably too nice? Yeah. The chance of playing him is astronomically low so I didn’t want my experience to be ruined by a bad apple. I just know for the future to be more wary of his name existing in the roster
Not only does this put a stain on the reputation of tau players, a faction already notoriously disliked by the rest of the community to the point of memehood, but like we saw in the meta monday thread, his wins were counted towards the overall tau win rate, ratcheting it up from a pathetic 38,8% to an 'almost fine' 43%. Keeping in mind that GW aims for a goldilocks zone of 45-55%, artificially boosting win rates could have had further negative repercussions in the form of GW deciding our faction is doing better than we actually are, and passing us over for (much needed) buffs.
@jeffbogard8794 Tau already have a reputation for not being fun to play against due to their focus on shooting. We do not need 'cheater' added as a reason lmao
@@jeffbogard8794Cause we all hate playing against Tau, especially since tri riptide builds. So now it's like "Oh not only are you using busted shooting units, you are gonna cheat in addition"
Honestly I was shocked when I recently learned that tournaments let you bring your own dice?? I had always assumed you would be forced to use standard dice to prevent cheating.
Out of my two local groups we had to remove a number of folks who played like that. In my main club, it was generally individuals who tried to cheat with doctored rules and stats, fake dice and mishearing/measuring of distances. With the other club it was a whole group who used to do these cheats and others. To them it wasn’t cheating it was your fault for not knowing the game and you deserved to be played.
The only way to deal with cheaters and people who have really terrible unsportsmanlike behavior is to get rid of them from any hobby scene. If there is an established pattern of behavior, the only way to fix them is to not give them a space where they are allowed to continue cheating or what have you. If you don’t they have an outsized effect on their local scene.
Thank you for your great reporting on this story! As a Tau player myself who is sad at our current standing this story makes me sick, I felt ill that this guy got so far and used a faction that gets a bad rap because of these players.
Treacherous Xenos scum!! (But seriously, lighten up; I play space elfs btw) No, Tau have a bad rep because it can be boring to play against, especially on the old no rule no los block tables. Basically like Guard. I can imagine that is different now and also why Tau struggle since long range and castle are less effective now. And Tau still have no great counter charge as such. (which is fine because that is what they are). If we talk about competitve, there are always some things that are objectively better, and lists are rather static and sameish(until someone finds something new or obscure). If someone judges another on what 40k army they play in all seriousness, then it is their own fault and only shows their lack of character.
It's GW that refuses to ban cheaters or have them kicked out of events. Frontline Gaming used to enforce their code of conduct, but due to GW (Mike Brandt) cracking down on them, they can't anymore. A shame. I was at this event and you could see the look in everyone's eyes who knew William Abilez when he was called up for his trophy.
I just got into wh40k tabletop. Was at my local store at war game night and got paired up with another guy playing admech. I’m 3 games in and this guys first turn took 1.5 hours to move,shoot,charge, (tried to shoot again), charged again, fight in combat then pass the turn once he’s thoroughly tried to convince me this is all legal…I pointed out that he’s already taken a ton of my characters on the first turn and what units had already taken their actions… I like to use marker dice or the cards to indicate what units still have actions… didn’t also help his case that his dice are blue/blue with blue pips so you can’t see if it’s a 4 or 5 a 2 or a 3… needless to say I just smiled and let him do his thing and left with a bad taste in my mouth about the integrity of players
I REALLY hate dice that dont have clearly marked numbers, especially the ones with symbols in place of both 1s and 6s making it difficult to keep track of which is which. I have particularly bad eyesight and hate not being able to see what my opponent rolls. That said, I recently bought a batch of 30 very small dice, thinking they would be easier to roll en masse. In an actual game I realise that some had misprints on them, with additional pips on some squares making a 2 look like a 3 or a 4 look like a five. Obviously I flagged this up to my opponent as soon as I noticed, but with more people paying attention to dice after the infamous poo dice incident I think it is worth mentioning that this can happen.
I mean. I’m gonna be rude but GW sold the dice with markers, im using them cause they’re awesome. Yes, I’m tired of telling people which symbol is which. But my rolls are never hidden.
@@darkchancellor5030 I appreciate people want to use their cool themed dice, it is just really stupid when GW use designs or symbols that aren't immediately clear. I also think it is very relevant that some dice are much harder for partially sighted or colour blind people to see. I think under those circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to ask someone to use more legible dice.
The only thing I'll say in that guys defence is that the firesight team has the precise targeting rule which does give full re-rolls to hit for it's guided partner squad
One of the simplest fixes for a lot of dice issues is for the tournament to charge five more dollars and provide a pack of multicolored dice to each player that they can keep.
Cheating in a table top game like 40K, especially at a major event, is absolutely horrible. People are putting in hours upon hours of time painting, practicing, etc to get ready. They travel to the event. Players who are victim of cheaters have spent hard earned time and money to attend and participate. There is no question. If you’re cheating then you’re banned. Hopefully there’s a system in place soon that can flag these players across tournaments.
I’ve only ever gone to small local tournaments, but the few times I was cheated it left me pissed off for a long time. If I was spending money to travel and money on a hotel to find out I was cheated out of the tournament I wouldn’t bother going to the next tournament.
I will never understand the need to cheat.... like are people soo insecure that they have to cheat to feel good about themselves? such a strange way of playing competitive games....
It's sad and pathetic to me an adult would cheat at toy soldiers. I almost feel bad for people who have nothing else in their life that cheating at toy soldiers brings them happiness.
@@willlondon4964 Right? Like... you're playing a game. Have fun with it. If you win, great, if you lose, eh, it's not actually hurt you in any way and hopefully you got to spend time with some cool folks. I think a lot of people need to take the orky mindset tbh - If you win, you win, if you lose, you just come back and have another go! - And I feel like that goes for most games tbh.
@@mistformsquirrel Yeah it's just a really odd thing to do mentally... it's essentially lying to yourself that you're good, to feel good about yourself..... i actually really pity people like that
Thank You for this, we need more content creators calling for ban lists and actual consequences for cheating in the tournament scene. Most TOs I talk to want this but they need the cover to take the steps necessary to clean up the very few bad actors in the tournament scene.
LONG POST, FYI. Ah cheaters...the juiciest of tiny soldier gaming gossip, lol. I used to be GM of our FLGS, and I often ended up running 40k tournaments. This was years ago, before the ITC became prevalent. Two cheaters stand out in my mind from back then. The first was a guy who was initially, greatly respected. He was an older fellow who'd been in the hobby since the start, and he even cast out of print models for a fee for some folks (old cyboars for mounted feral orks and old harlequinn jetbikes). One tournament he was caught using several loaded dice mixed in with identical normal dice; these had the 2's drilled out and painted to be another 5 result on the dice. I don't want to talk too much about this fellow though, because after this, he lost all respect around the gamestore, he rarely stopped by after the incident, and he eventually died alone from cancer. I hate cheating, but this guy definitely paid for his mistakes. The second was a guy who everyone already knew was a big cheater. Everyone hated playing him, but he was the owner's friend, so he kept getting away with his B.S. One night I was the T.O. while the owner was out of town, and this guy was cheating especially badly; all of the tournament players complained, not just his opponents. I caught him on tape to be sure, and then quietly kicked him out of the tournament's final round. The guy got upset and decided to make a scene, so he began to scream and holler, and then he threatened me, saying that if I was a real man I'd meet him outside. On the spot in public with all the players watching, I banned him from all future tournaments for threatening an organizer with harm. He told me he was "waiting for me in the parking lot"... until I called the police and he ran away. Sadly, the ultimate resolution to this incident had a domino effect that killed the store's 40k community. The owner let him back into the tournaments, resulting in all of our competitive players moving on to other gamestores, and the fan base died. Then about a year later (after I had found another job) the gamestore itself failed from lack of sales. Sound piece of advice for organizers and gamestore owners: don't let cheaters walk all over you- friends or not. Your job is to run an honest, successful tournament or business, not cater to a sycophant. Be clear, fair, and firm with your admonishment of dishonest tournament players; otherwise gamers may lose faith in your establishment and events, and it is likely that they will stop supporting the events and buying product.
Most of these crybaby cheaters buy models and game store owners are desperate for sales. Should know when to cut the cord, not alot of sympathy for the weak ones
Was playing Armada at LSO, sorry to hear you guys had such an issue on your end of the hall. It's always great seeing the well painted armies as I walk by!
As a Tau main this weekend was a roller coaster. Up- wow a good tau list. Looks at list...a weird good list? Down- nope just a cheater. I get enough hate as is as a tau player lol don't need to give amo
Being a Tau player, i just realized through watching this that i made the same mistake he did for the Tournament i recently attended, which was giving the firesight (sniper guy) through unity devestation. Except that he probably did that intentionally. I feel really bad about that now 😅, it definitely was impactful on my games.
There is an argument I could see for that taking it would work As one model is counted as a unit so the firesight is leading himself, That being said how did this they rule on FTGG chaining as that is the only way taking this makes any sense, as you would give up the rerolls to hit on the firesight being guided if it was instead acting as an observer.?
This is a reason why GWs Codex pricing for paywalled faction rules is insane. It's incredibly expensive to buy all the Codices, but cheaters can get away with a lot if you don't know their Codex very well.
Too harsh on Will? If this person is repeated offender, there is no saving grace from this guy anymore. He's addicted to the feeling of winning that he needs to cheat, he must have a troubled personality in life, if he's not letting out that urge to cheat in toy soldier games, he's more likely to do some other physical or psychological harm to others in real life. He needs help.
I get what you are saying but the tournament community doesn't owe him or any other cheater anything. He can still play the game in any other place with anyone who is willing to play him. The 40k is about fun and inclusivity, but IMO if you spoil everyone else's fun you shouldn't be included.
Quick solution, set up an open source database for tournament organisers where they can list cheaters & their infractions. Then other tournaments can check this & decide whether to allow or ban players. Also, lifetime bans need to be that, lifetime. I'm pretty sure there was a massive cheater in the UK they had a lifetime ban lifted after only two years.
I came across stuff similar to this a lot in the early 2000’s which is what led me to quit till 10th just came out. Really hope organizers and the community take it more seriously and track people like this
There is no reason these known cheaters should be allowed to enter any public tabletop game. Should be publicly shamed and denied entrance to any event.
The same happened some weeks ago in Spain with a Thousand Sons list. Around 12 rules/interactions invented. But none wants to talk about it, they prefer to hide it under the carpet. Let me say TO was notified at the begining of day 2 and that player was not disqualified, he ended 3rd.
That's fundamentally the issue with this edition. The streamlining that the return of USR was supposed to do is completely negated by every single unit having either a unique special rule or varrient of another units special rule. This is fundamentally worse than the strategems bloat in 9th because strategems required the spending of a resource to activate, abilities do not and most of the old wargear strategems have become unit abilities. Which when added to the changes in how leaders work, unforseen issues with keywords like devesating wounds and anti, and other issues makes it easy for players to just create fake rule interactions that do not exist. I blame GW though more than anything, this edition needed another half year or so in development to get it right but it was rushed out.
The shooting with guiding units thing is actually an unclarified grey area, gw hasn't specified if after you shoot you are no longer "eligible to shoot" and has seemingly implied that you still are?
Flg needs to actually have a way for TOs to flag cheaters. Also, if hes not banned from flg for this one, there is no enforcement and the whole format pretty much is a joke. You cant remove him for cheating on score card only, he ruined at least 6 other players events and as such I think a permanent ban is warranted.
What the hell happened to this community? We have new players cheering and insulting older players for having their units squated, rampant cheating and lax punishments for the cheaters, a laser focus on hyper competitiveness to the point where pickup games are expected to use tournament packs, TO's banning armies because they don't like rules. It's madness.
As someone who's only in the hobby part, never played a game, the tournament scene seem like a chaotic playhouse full of manchildren an unprofessional organizers. I know these cheaters are a minority but they're really souring the image of the game to those of us who just like building and painting models but would eventually like to play someday.
@@thegorefatherdonkhorneleon5159 Hard agree. I remember growing up when a store ran a Warhammer event it was always called a Game Day and not a tournament. It does seem to be a 40k specific problem. because I've gone to several Age of Sigmar tournaments where the entire field were pet lists. One of them everyone started to leave before prizes were given out because we forgot we were playing a "tournament" lol.
@@wolvie90 Best recommendation I have if you want to start playing is scout your local game stores. If they have a club for just hang out for a few weeks and see what the vibe is. If they play the Crusade mode for 40k that's a pretty good green flag and should be closer to the spirit of the game. If they're busting out the Leviathan Tournament Companion for pick up games bail out in a drop pod.
@@Proto1DudeI wouldn’t say crusade is a 100% green flag. Every crusade group I have played in has been ruined by competitive try hards running tournament lists!
Out of curiosity how did the TO allow the tournament to go ahead if they only had three staff members? Is there a minimum level of service expected at events like this?
To be fair, it's a new edition. They may have a usual set of guys 5 or 10 guys who would normally TO but don't feel confident enough to step into that role, especially at a sizable tourney. I guarantee this event was planned way in advance of the edition drop. Your options at that point are a) run a tournament with 3 TO's or b) cancel a 200+ player tournament at the last minute and eat the costs on cancelations and overhead. How many organizers do you think are gonna take option b?
@@AeronDuskglow thanks! As someone who has never attended a 40k tourne I am curious as to the set up. Would the TO not be able to ask of their staff to get sufficient practice in or are most staff voluntary/casual?
@@munchinbiscuits From what I know of other organizations that I've seen (that are not of this scale), it's a group of 'paid volunteers' at best. People who the organizers know that say "I know enough about this that I can be called it to make a ruling" that get some sort of compensation for doing so to make up for them not just playing in it themselves.
They should probably have a ticket cover costs of a few big things, judges, a set of dice they are required to use at the table where they cannot take them away from the tables, and a decent reporting system and resolution for issues. After the event, they can keep the set of dice they were given, considered bought as part of the tournament ticket. Its one thing for a random stores tournament to go unreported and nearly casual, but if it is official in amy regards, there should be minimum standards for all these things. GW is not just a model company at this point....
I have not played 40K in years I have a question and a sorta defence. So in the "Through Unity, Devastation" It says "While this model is leading a unit" It does not say that the model needs to have the leadership ability. So while that guy is with his sniper drones that would be him leading a unit, am I wrong? Or do the rules say everything that even mentions or uses the word "Leading" means that they HAVE to have the Leadership ability or what not?
Thank you for making this content. Cheating should be absolutely unacceptable and should be called out LOUDLY. He should be named, shamed and banned from tournaments for years
I was there at LSO the judges were very unknowlegable and didnt seem to know about soom rules. At one point I called a judge over and he looked at me and then went back to looking at his phone.
Years ago, during third or fourth edition, we had a guy that picked his army based on what cheese he can do. I had several players come to me and tell me why do the rules change when you’re not watching the table. And me being the guy running this league/good guys versus bad guys, And the only prize given the sportsmanship. That some of the better players that have been around to do tournaments also said that they’ve noticed Not against them, but against newer players, he would be the same thing and come up with weird stuff to win. I eventually had to throw them out.
I would say that rigging the dice can be more difficult to prove hence you need to do an extended investigation but the mere list could be avoided just by double checking everything is correct. The problem with these "mistakes" is that we want to provide goodwill that no one is cheating but in the end this causes that good will to drain.... and in response well more drastical measures will be placed unfortunetly
loaded dice could be so easy to circumenvent, with the tournament holder giving out dice to use for everyone, dice are so cheap they can be easily be part of the entry fee
I had a guy pull a similar stunt. Tried to tell me he "knew" his army and I needed to just be quiet or get a judge called on me for intentionally "disrupting" his gameplay. I dunno who tf he thought I was, but he thought VERY VERY wrong. I called his bs right then and there, and called the judge over myself. Looked him dead in the eyes and said "now we'll get this sorted." Soon as the TO came over I explained what he was doing, all the while the assclown was sputtering about updates and FAQs. Bottom line, TO sat at the table for the rest of his games. He lost every single one by large margins. My game I was able to swing back and win once he stopped dice manipulation and rules fuckery. Morale of the story, the TO's are there for a reason, and if you have a legitimate concern, you fucking bring that shit up right then and there. Dont let ANYONE bully you into silence. Call em out. Period
On behave of the t’au empire, all septs and enclaves. in accordance with the Tau'va. we apologise, this individual is now placed as exile. any damage or punishment put upon him, by any power, will not be retaliated by the t’au empire. for the Tau'va.
Lol this guy was my only loss at BAO and we both rolled 6’s to start the game. Interesting in the moment felt like an ok game but looking back I wonder now.
I played him too at BAO. He also rolled a six to go first in our game, too. Had issues with him at SoCal 2021, and I'm shocked how much Frontline just ignores with this guy. He basically ruined the top 20 placing at BAO 2023 as well.
Why is it difficult to standardize events? FFS - standard rolling in an event provided tray, event provided dice, no codex no play, must provide a physical list to your opponent, etc, etc. So many of these event organizers are simply incompetent.
There should be a list share function on the GW app so you can ask your opponent to send them your list so you can help them if they make small mistakes or call people like this guy out
well thats one of the main reasons why i quit competitive gaming, it was very common back when i played. Small stuff like saying they rolled more hits than they did, and being fast to pick up the dice, so when you did call it out, you could not prove it among other things, no cameras etc to prove anything. People like to win, and some do what ever to win.
The enhancement and, "scout-tide" do sound odd, but for the other part, are we sure that his opponents understand how tetras work or that he took missile drones on his broadsides which would give him 6, 2 Damage Missile shots a turn?
This is why I can't get into competitive. Playing against dudes who change their lists when I show up with mine or blatantly lie about a rule while I can see the rule they're lying about. Idk what makes it fun about cheating but I essentially just turn it into a test game to see what stuff I want to try for my list. Turns out using rapid ingress on a knight puts pressure even on cheaters
As a new player I make rules mistakes frequently. I would rather be corrected and lose than win by breaking the rules. There are several ways to reduce cheating. One method is more streamng tables to observe mechanics. Another would be a judge who is an expert in a faction conducting spot checks on lists.
Now that WH40K is growing, we need more judges and more third party observers on these games. Sure it's not going to catch it all, especially day 1 if there is 100 plus people. But other things like tournament dice would be huge.
Ya know what? A funny rule for this sort of stuff would be if X person has a past record of cheating in a GT, they are put in matches only with other cheaters.
Could not agree more!!! Cheaters need to be NAMED, SHAMED, BANNED. You ruin other peoples hard earned (especially these days) fun. All the time people put into their armies and hobby in general... then you get people like this... wasting peoples hard earned time, money and passion for the hobby... get out of our community. BLANKET LIFE TIME BANS to be enforced for blatent repeat cheaters. Fully back
FLG should be ashamed to treat its tournament goers this terribly. This is what keeps people in Garagehammer and is one of the two main reasons I won't play outside a friend group.
People will cheat, if they think they can get away with it, or their arrogance has no bounds. Many years ago I used to play 40k, I played from 3rd edition through to 5th edition before I stopped playing. I was in my local community one of the best players, I am not exagerating. Kids would come to me asking me what army they should buy, which game set they should buy, I wasn't a member of staff.... I was another customer. I was being challenged week in week out by people wanting to beat me, and they would fail. It didnt matter what army I used, I had my favorites, of course, but I could run over a army book and choose a line up which was challenging and difficult to beat. There was no need to cheat. So I haven't played since 5th edition. I was challenged by a Eldar player against my Iron Warriors Chaos Marine Warband. This guy was fully aware, who I was, he was fully aware I've had 1000s of games with a 99% WR. I have lost games, but they were rare. DISCLAIMER, I haven't played in over 15 years, I might be sketchy on some old rules. Now this guy was using a Falcon Grav Tank. His armament was the Pulse Laser (standard, it was STR 9 and got D3 shots with a AP of 3), he had a Star Cannon (3 shots, STR 6 and an AP of 2). I had a Predator Tank, with the armour enhancement making the front armour 14 (13 standard). So this player decides, his Grav Tank is going to engage my Predator, he rolls his Pulse Laser D3 and gets 3 shots. He rolls his to hits and scores 1 hit and then he starts explaining to me, a Veteran of 20 years at that time, someone who knows every Army Book cover to cover, that his Pulse Laser, with its STR 9 and D3 shots.... ALSO counted as a Bright Lance. (A Bright Lance in 5th edition was a weapon which was STR 8, could fire once per turn had an AP of 3 and a special rule that any Armoured Vehicle, which had a Armour of 12 or more, had its armour reduced to a 12 for that weapon).... I was like, thats amazing, I've been playing Eldar for about 5 years (at that point) and I've never known there was such a thing as a Eldar Bright Lance Pulse Laser mounted on Eldar Vehicles. I asked him to show me where it says that in the Eldar Army book? As you can imagine he couldn't. The rule didnt exist.... I mean this guy I had noticed for several months now, he'd been in the store, playing little kids with little to no experience with Eldar who he was using this Bright Lance Pulse Laser on, I kept quiet, its not my place to interfere with someone elses game, its their perogative, to know the rules of the game, but the audacity of this guy, trying this blatant cheat, on me with my reputation at that time. Curiously I never saw him in store again after that game.
All I have to ask is WHY?! It's just a table top game. I know some events have some kind of reward but it's nothing that'll pay your bills or fund you a trip to somewhere. I compete in 40K cause it's a fun, easy get away from life once ever other other month. I'd love it if I ranked high and got some kind of reward, but I live with just doing what I can. This bullshit is just baffeling and honestly a black eye to a community that doesn't need it.
I've run in to my share of cheaters, from a person that deliberately "Misreads" the rules or leaves entire lines out, to people who have been removed from ITC events and given season bans for cheating (this guy still places high in local tournaments because his friend runs them). Some is hard to tell with lackadaisical measuring being popular, (measuring from the front of the base then putting the model at the end of the tape measure adding the width of the base to your movement turning what should be an 8 inch charge in to a 6 inch charge being the most common thing I see, particularly with the opponents that like to play melee armies. I don't understand why people would think this is fun, and something to lose friends over, and get ostracized from the community . The point of a hobby is to relax and have fun, the point of playing a game is to spend time with family or friends and have a good time doing something you all enjoy. These people need to be called out when it happens, bans for repeat offenders and spread the word at your LGS, hey keep an eye on that guy he cheats with loaded dice, or doesn't measure properly (yes this really bugs me) or makes up his rules and stats as he goes. If you go to a tournament and see someone you know cheats, point them out to the judges and tell what he does. That puts the pressure on the TOs to do something about them.
There was that guy who got caught cheating on a live streamed table a couple years ago and all he got was a one year ITC "zero points" punishment. If people really want a competitive 40K scene, then infractions like that one and this one need much stiffer penalties. This guy, were I in charge of the event would be named, his actions spread far and wide along with his face and he would be banned *for life* from any events I ran. Organizations like ITC and FLG need to be far harsher in their punishment of cheating, especially when it's this obvious.
I would fall for most points, but I would be extremely suspicious and look at the app to see if the SMS really has become a horde destroyer like this. Very unlikely stats. It used to be the weaker missile iirc, with the benefit of no los. And cups are only used if you have very small dice, which is annoying to an opponent as well. Try 20 dice in a dice cup...
I was there and went 4 L and 2 W, I heard the same rumors but I didn’t go against the player thankfully but I only went against imperium and chaos as GK lol
"Calling cheaters out online can impact thier lives outside the game" < Tough shit. I have no pitty for any cheater or what happens to them. Shout out their names and share it with everyone so they get shunned by the community.
i would love to see two cheaters stuck in a loop while rolling for the first turn
Haha, that would be awkward
haha
Lol 😂
And then accusing each other and getting aggressive.
In the sheer audacity to cheat, they've created the hell they belong to; they cannot leave until one wins the roll off, they cannot change dice, they cannot throw the game at roll off, stuck in the forever roll off
First off, you can’t give Tau players hope and then take it away. That’s GWs job.
Beyond that. It’s perfectly ok to ask to roll an opponents dice a few times.
Or everytime.
They rolled to wound, pick up those same dice for your saves.
If I'm rolling really hot, ill do this too.
Honestly, that should have been the first clue. Aint no way Tau should be doing any good with their current data cards!
@@gordonross3270your dirty cheetoh fingers aren’t touching my dice 😂
@@xtigerbotjoe that's why he made his own data cards
I mean look at the rules where like you have to select unit and get a +1 but then you CAN'T shoot anything else unless -1 it's like WTF. Are tau at least 3+ BS now ? like with all the hoop and shit they got to go to get this +1 certainly the excuse of "but they can get +1 easily so they don't need to have baseline shooting stats on their FULLY ranged army" isn't staying right?
Honestly, some of this falls on the community for their historically lax treatment of cheaters. We all have seen this happen and you can tell the difference between a person being new and making mistakes and a veteran who seems to always make only mistakes that benefit them. Speak up if someone is cheating, let people know so they dont waste hours of their life with a cheater.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me one hundred times, win GT without even slap on the wrist.
I don't think we should 100% ban people for life for any "cheating" (honest mistakes do happen), but red list of players that are known to cheat multiple times should be public. And then we can take actions. For example it's harder to wiggle out of cheating when your game is live streamed, and even basic phone camera can do it half-decent.
He wont get banned for life (see TJ Lanigan Fabricator forge GT april)
One million percent agree ☝️
Sad part is everyone has a cheating story,
It needs to be called out every time or every future player will have one
So lame as well, it's toy soldiers and there is no meaningful prize
I recently played in my first tournament and one of my opponents "cheated" by playing engage on all fronts wrong and when I questioned him on it he told me "Oh no you're right". I never checked, turned out after he checked he was still playing it wrong. By this stage I didn't care. At the end of the day its a game of toy soldiers and if he's pathetic enough to need to cheat to validate his life choices so be it.
To his credit he did report to the TOs the next day that he realised he'd played it wrong and asked to give me the win. That takes a big man in my book. Not all cheaters do it on purpose I suppose. The guy in this video is pure scum however
This is a big oof for FLG. 3 TO-s to manage 107 tables is insane. The number of the players participating should be limited by the number of TOs available to adjudicate. By all means, the cheater should be held accountable and banned from Warhammer, but FLG should at least issue formal apologies to the players who had to play him and return their entry fees.
I think thats the craziest part of this whole story. For our event we had 2 judges for 22 tables which felt pretty good and allowed judge calls to be resolved quickly. I cant imagine the wait time for a judge when theres only 3 for 107 tables.
@@BoldAndSpicy I was there. There were no wait times. Felts like there were lots of judges, more than usual even.
@@asbrozek64 Cool. But a job done quick but shitty, is still a job done shitty. Clearly other integral areas of a judge's job were not being done.
@@hansyolo8277 Have you been to an event like this? There's no way that judges can monitor every game. And even if they could, the amount of information you have to internalize to actually be able to detect cheating is massive. No one has every index card memorized. The truth is that this problem has no practical solution.
@@asbrozek64 I'm more referring to the stated issues of basic procedure, like infractions being recorded, not being done. So yes, they overworked the judges and a shitty job was done.
Eldar said to Desolation Marine: ”Look what Tau need just to mimic a fraction of our power!”
Can remove marines from the 'our' they suck this edition, barely 45% win rate. Replace with Genestealer Cults maybe
@@kilamandarosthat's with Marines getting sandbagged by a lot of new players, to be fair.
@@Rothana76 everyone makes that excuse but how many top events are they winning? How many marine armies are we seeing in top 3s, even top 10s? They had a one trick in desolators but that's already been nerfed. They're mid at best.
@@kilamandaros I'm not saying marines are competing with GSC or Aeldari, just that the army is more capable than that 45% would have one believe.
@@kilamandarosi think marines can do amazing things with adaptive strategy, squad tactics, and rites of battle. They are much better than people give them credit for. Desolation at 240 was just a crutch there is no way they should've been 240. The faction is good, not broken like aeldari but good
Its a big part of why 40k as a competitive thing is a joke besides the heinous balancing. Our treatment of literal cheaters is so bad. How is Alex Harrison still allowed to compete at events as an example? Throw the book at this guy. And Harrison. And Lannigan. The whole lot of em. We need better standards. Ive had cases of being cheated against personally but "theres no possible way that could happen, I know him, he's a nice guy! And plus, the effort he put into this army" said the judge and so on. We need proper infraction procedure and real penalties for this stuff.
100% agree!
1000%
We also need judges who know the rules forward and backwards who also check the data cards against the list brought by the infracting player.
TJ had a ban and came back and has to go way above and beyond everytime he plays now with cards and tokens for everything, basically any etiquette or good play he goes above and beyond now and any rules interactions will take the negative if RAW vs RAI. the TO that got him banned to begin with was the first to accept him back under conditions. We give literal murderers second chances, i think we can give people second chances with toy soldiers. Harrison though ive heard is much more of a overbearing bully than a cheat these days, hes a big guy and knows it, throwing your weight around at a table is also just as bad as cheating imo and needs to be yellow carded, hard to prove though.
Yes @justinbarnes8834 and judges shouldnt be afraid to yellow card an "oops my bad"
I played him too at BAO 2023 and SoCal 2021. He also rolled a six twice, we tied first roll, to go first in our game, too. Although he used a weird tray he never used again after the roll to go first then. Had issues with him at SoCal 2021 such as dice manipulation and fudging rules, and I'm shocked how much Frontline just ignores with this guy. He basically ruined the top 20 placing at BAO 2023 as well.
As a Tau player, this really bugs me, cuz I feel like it's going to paint a bad picture of Tau players in general, when so many people hate us already! I hope this guy gets banned for life!
Me and you both, I already get a lot of shit just for playing T'au in my local group, and this is definitely not going to make things better.
Why would that be the case? Also noone hates Tau or Tau players??
I have read a few comments about this "paint a bad picture of Tau players" and where does that come from. I wont judge you for playing Tau just because some idiot cheated playing a tau army. I judge that player what ever army he does play. If any one judges you for playing your army, based on some other dude who cheated playing that the same army, then i would call that person who judge you an idiot. Play your army, don't cheat and every one should be happy playing with you.
He wont get banned for life (see TJ Lanigan Fabricator forge GT april)
Even if he played legit and went 6-0 people would still use that to say Tau are fine, or overpowered even.
The Tau hate doesn't come from a rational place, it's personal bias, because the people who play Warhammer are too socially-stunted and immature to handle the concept of something just not being their thing, and double-digit IQs.
Here's hoping that a public callout like this will help ensure that Mr. Abeliz will only ever get to play 40K games against other cheaters.
This is crazy. They just need to ban the guy like the other tournaments. I think the smaller ones must have caught him more easily because it's a smaller atmosphere but apparently at this big event you can sort of hide out. Probably not enough judges to go around.
I went to an FLG ATO 2023 event there were about 150 tables and like 4-5 Judges? Way too few for that many people ( luckily nobody seemed to be cheating and I had a Great time)
Even the people caught on camera (see TJ lanigan fabricator forge gt april) get a slap on the wrist, he was the top ITC player too. Imagine how much more he cheated before getting caught. Now hes winning GTs again....eyeroll
Front Line Gaming gets money from cheaters and honest players both. They don't care about the results, they get the money whether the cheater wins the tournament or not.
@@AlbertoMartinez765There are always cheaters in a crowd that big.
While I am no longer a fan of Magic: the Gathering, I think 40k could benefit from implementing the Infraction Procedure Guide (IPG) where there is a clear reporting system built into the Tournament software that allows easily to track when infractions have been made over the course of the event, and across events and circuits(s)
So this dude should just be permabanned
mainly for playing Tau but I suppose the cheating doesn't help
@@jonadaya😂
I was at LSO
If anyone is like “why not just call a judge”; I can confirm there was like 4 judges total for the entire 40k even of 230 ish players.
The one time my opponent and I called a judge, took like 5 minutes to get to us.
One other potential rule violation is the Tau For The Greater Good rule can't be used to benefit indirect fire. The target unit must be visible to both the observer and guided unit.
You know, I didn't even notice that... And now I have yet another piece of evidence that the Tau Index author just hates the faction.
I have been to many FLG events were this gentleman has placed extremely well in most of them. This also including the BAO and him crushing my good friend at his first ever tournament in an RTT at LVO earlier this year. My friend was playing custodes and this was his first ever big event and stated that he was having trouble understanding terrain rules and this, as he so valiantly exclaimed “top 10 Tau player” proceeded to make him deploy completely out of cover as he tabled him bottom of turn 3. An incredible experience for a new player at an RTT single elim event.
This is why my friends and I just play with each other. Nearly every time I’ve tried playing with randos at the flgs I always seem to get cheaters or people who misremember basic rules.
I fully understand the frustration of playing Abilez, I ended up playing him at my first LVO knowing who he was. I almost took a yellow card for making his game a pain since he didn’t want to cooperate and verify rules when I asked for them.
He doesn't want to verify the rules? Do it yourself and slap his "involuntary" mistakes in his face!
Are you scared to tell a judge he's not playing properly? Like I don't understand the issue. You can't go to a T.O or anyone and point it out? Isn't that the whole point of them being there?
@@chromehunter2074 I did in fact do this, but by conduct I was on the border of weaponizing a judge which would get me kicked from the event. He played the victim very well and convinced the tables next to us that I was the troublemaker is how it effectively worked out
@@Zuggog_The_Janitor so, basically you made it everyone else's problem. And so did his 6 other opponents. So, is it that easy to bully a win? Just show up and say I win and it'll happen at all of these events?
@@chromehunter2074 How could you even come to the conclusion that I made it everyone else’s problem? I played him in the third round which means he walloped two other folks before me. I made sure to keep him honest as possible and some still slipped through.
There is a difference in calling over a judge for rule’s verification and for blatant cheating, was I probably too nice? Yeah. The chance of playing him is astronomically low so I didn’t want my experience to be ruined by a bad apple. I just know for the future to be more wary of his name existing in the roster
Not only does this put a stain on the reputation of tau players, a faction already notoriously disliked by the rest of the community to the point of memehood, but like we saw in the meta monday thread, his wins were counted towards the overall tau win rate, ratcheting it up from a pathetic 38,8% to an 'almost fine' 43%. Keeping in mind that GW aims for a goldilocks zone of 45-55%, artificially boosting win rates could have had further negative repercussions in the form of GW deciding our faction is doing better than we actually are, and passing us over for (much needed) buffs.
@jeffbogard8794 Tau already have a reputation for not being fun to play against due to their focus on shooting. We do not need 'cheater' added as a reason lmao
@@Reqqlesthing is, every top 5-6 faction in 10th edition has devastating shooting
@@jeffbogard8794Cause we all hate playing against Tau, especially since tri riptide builds.
So now it's like "Oh not only are you using busted shooting units, you are gonna cheat in addition"
@user-nx9rp8tx8p true, so do tau but we don't have ways to make it happen easily like strands of fate or anti or Oath of Moment for those rerolls.
@@jeffbogard8794 Its not suddenly, its a reputation earned over decades. Tau tends to attract that guy for some reason.
Getting to the point where there should be a provided dice block per table and shared by both players.
Either that or roll your dice somewhere out in the open as courtesy
This.
Honestly I was shocked when I recently learned that tournaments let you bring your own dice?? I had always assumed you would be forced to use standard dice to prevent cheating.
@@shm1wtdice aren't cheap lol.. imagine having supply 30-40 dice for each person?
@@chaoticzer0dice are extremely cheap... 40k uses D6, you can get a thousand for 10$...
Real Tau player are not bad, we mostly just shoot a lot enjoy the turn and pray to survive to the next turn...
You're all bad.
😂😂😂😂 agreed
@@AncientIrishCeltno it’s for the greater good…
Out of my two local groups we had to remove a number of folks who played like that. In my main club, it was generally individuals who tried to cheat with doctored rules and stats, fake dice and mishearing/measuring of distances. With the other club it was a whole group who used to do these cheats and others. To them it wasn’t cheating it was your fault for not knowing the game and you deserved to be played.
So they were douchebags who needed toy soldiers to make their weiners larger.
The only way to deal with cheaters and people who have really terrible unsportsmanlike behavior is to get rid of them from any hobby scene. If there is an established pattern of behavior, the only way to fix them is to not give them a space where they are allowed to continue cheating or what have you. If you don’t they have an outsized effect on their local scene.
Perma bam, no return. Simple as that
Not going to happen, notorious cheaters like TJ lanigan are still winning events
Tournaments are a hive of scum and villainy.
Thank you for your great reporting on this story! As a Tau player myself who is sad at our current standing this story makes me sick, I felt ill that this guy got so far and used a faction that gets a bad rap because of these players.
I can understand that, I'm a big time votann fan and i'd feel strongly the same way
Treacherous Xenos scum!!
(But seriously, lighten up; I play space elfs btw)
No, Tau have a bad rep because it can be boring to play against, especially on the old no rule no los block tables. Basically like Guard. I can imagine that is different now and also why Tau struggle since long range and castle are less effective now. And Tau still have no great counter charge as such. (which is fine because that is what they are). If we talk about competitve, there are always some things that are objectively better, and lists are rather static and sameish(until someone finds something new or obscure).
If someone judges another on what 40k army they play in all seriousness, then it is their own fault and only shows their lack of character.
It's GW that refuses to ban cheaters or have them kicked out of events. Frontline Gaming used to enforce their code of conduct, but due to GW (Mike Brandt) cracking down on them, they can't anymore. A shame. I was at this event and you could see the look in everyone's eyes who knew William Abilez when he was called up for his trophy.
I just got into wh40k tabletop. Was at my local store at war game night and got paired up with another guy playing admech. I’m 3 games in and this guys first turn took 1.5 hours to move,shoot,charge, (tried to shoot again), charged again, fight in combat then pass the turn once he’s thoroughly tried to convince me this is all legal…I pointed out that he’s already taken a ton of my characters on the first turn and what units had already taken their actions… I like to use marker dice or the cards to indicate what units still have actions… didn’t also help his case that his dice are blue/blue with blue pips so you can’t see if it’s a 4 or 5 a 2 or a 3… needless to say I just smiled and let him do his thing and left with a bad taste in my mouth about the integrity of players
I REALLY hate dice that dont have clearly marked numbers, especially the ones with symbols in place of both 1s and 6s making it difficult to keep track of which is which. I have particularly bad eyesight and hate not being able to see what my opponent rolls. That said, I recently bought a batch of 30 very small dice, thinking they would be easier to roll en masse. In an actual game I realise that some had misprints on them, with additional pips on some squares making a 2 look like a 3 or a 4 look like a five. Obviously I flagged this up to my opponent as soon as I noticed, but with more people paying attention to dice after the infamous poo dice incident I think it is worth mentioning that this can happen.
I mean. I’m gonna be rude but GW sold the dice with markers, im using them cause they’re awesome. Yes, I’m tired of telling people which symbol is which. But my rolls are never hidden.
@@darkchancellor5030 I appreciate people want to use their cool themed dice, it is just really stupid when GW use designs or symbols that aren't immediately clear. I also think it is very relevant that some dice are much harder for partially sighted or colour blind people to see. I think under those circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to ask someone to use more legible dice.
The only thing I'll say in that guys defence is that the firesight team has the precise targeting rule which does give full re-rolls to hit for it's guided partner squad
One of the simplest fixes for a lot of dice issues is for the tournament to charge five more dollars and provide a pack of multicolored dice to each player that they can keep.
Thanks Trevy for putting it all together so elegantly. Just want everyone to know its not a Tau problem, its a cornball problem
Cheating in a table top game like 40K, especially at a major event, is absolutely horrible. People are putting in hours upon hours of time painting, practicing, etc to get ready. They travel to the event. Players who are victim of cheaters have spent hard earned time and money to attend and participate.
There is no question. If you’re cheating then you’re banned. Hopefully there’s a system in place soon that can flag these players across tournaments.
I’ve only ever gone to small local tournaments, but the few times I was cheated it left me pissed off for a long time. If I was spending money to travel and money on a hotel to find out I was cheated out of the tournament I wouldn’t bother going to the next tournament.
I will never understand the need to cheat.... like are people soo insecure that they have to cheat to feel good about themselves? such a strange way of playing competitive games....
It's sad and pathetic to me an adult would cheat at toy soldiers. I almost feel bad for people who have nothing else in their life that cheating at toy soldiers brings them happiness.
@@willlondon4964 Right? Like... you're playing a game. Have fun with it. If you win, great, if you lose, eh, it's not actually hurt you in any way and hopefully you got to spend time with some cool folks.
I think a lot of people need to take the orky mindset tbh - If you win, you win, if you lose, you just come back and have another go! - And I feel like that goes for most games tbh.
@@mistformsquirrel Yeah it's just a really odd thing to do mentally... it's essentially lying to yourself that you're good, to feel good about yourself..... i actually really pity people like that
Same reason why athletes cheat
@@artnull13 Captain obvious
Thank You for this, we need more content creators calling for ban lists and actual consequences for cheating in the tournament scene. Most TOs I talk to want this but they need the cover to take the steps necessary to clean up the very few bad actors in the tournament scene.
LONG POST, FYI.
Ah cheaters...the juiciest of tiny soldier gaming gossip, lol.
I used to be GM of our FLGS, and I often ended up running 40k tournaments. This was years ago, before the ITC became prevalent.
Two cheaters stand out in my mind from back then. The first was a guy who was initially, greatly respected. He was an older fellow who'd been in the hobby since the start, and he even cast out of print models for a fee for some folks (old cyboars for mounted feral orks and old harlequinn jetbikes). One tournament he was caught using several loaded dice mixed in with identical normal dice; these had the 2's drilled out and painted to be another 5 result on the dice. I don't want to talk too much about this fellow though, because after this, he lost all respect around the gamestore, he rarely stopped by after the incident, and he eventually died alone from cancer. I hate cheating, but this guy definitely paid for his mistakes.
The second was a guy who everyone already knew was a big cheater. Everyone hated playing him, but he was the owner's friend, so he kept getting away with his B.S.
One night I was the T.O. while the owner was out of town, and this guy was cheating especially badly; all of the tournament players complained, not just his opponents. I caught him on tape to be sure, and then quietly kicked him out of the tournament's final round. The guy got upset and decided to make a scene, so he began to scream and holler, and then he threatened me, saying that if I was a real man I'd meet him outside. On the spot in public with all the players watching, I banned him from all future tournaments for threatening an organizer with harm. He told me he was "waiting for me in the parking lot"... until I called the police and he ran away.
Sadly, the ultimate resolution to this incident had a domino effect that killed the store's 40k community.
The owner let him back into the tournaments, resulting in all of our competitive players moving on to other gamestores, and the fan base died. Then about a year later (after I had found another job) the gamestore itself failed from lack of sales.
Sound piece of advice for organizers and gamestore owners: don't let cheaters walk all over you- friends or not. Your job is to run an honest, successful tournament or business, not cater to a sycophant. Be clear, fair, and firm with your admonishment of dishonest tournament players; otherwise gamers may lose faith in your establishment and events, and it is likely that they will stop supporting the events and buying product.
Most of these crybaby cheaters buy models and game store owners are desperate for sales. Should know when to cut the cord, not alot of sympathy for the weak ones
Wowza!! Thanks to the players who came forward with the facts. Appreciate the summary. Good to know.
Was playing Armada at LSO, sorry to hear you guys had such an issue on your end of the hall. It's always great seeing the well painted armies as I walk by!
As a Tau main this weekend was a roller coaster. Up- wow a good tau list. Looks at list...a weird good list?
Down- nope just a cheater.
I get enough hate as is as a tau player lol don't need to give amo
That sounds crazy! I once heard a story about a guy disassembling models midgame to fit into ruins during a tournament.
Being a Tau player, i just realized through watching this that i made the same mistake he did for the Tournament i recently attended, which was giving the firesight (sniper guy) through unity devestation. Except that he probably did that intentionally. I feel really bad about that now 😅, it definitely was impactful on my games.
There is an argument I could see for that taking it would work As one model is counted as a unit so the firesight is leading himself, That being said how did this they rule on FTGG chaining as that is the only way taking this makes any sense, as you would give up the rerolls to hit on the firesight being guided if it was instead acting as an observer.?
This is a reason why GWs Codex pricing for paywalled faction rules is insane. It's incredibly expensive to buy all the Codices, but cheaters can get away with a lot if you don't know their Codex very well.
Too harsh on Will? If this person is repeated offender, there is no saving grace from this guy anymore. He's addicted to the feeling of winning that he needs to cheat, he must have a troubled personality in life, if he's not letting out that urge to cheat in toy soldier games, he's more likely to do some other physical or psychological harm to others in real life. He needs help.
I get what you are saying but the tournament community doesn't owe him or any other cheater anything.
He can still play the game in any other place with anyone who is willing to play him.
The 40k is about fun and inclusivity, but IMO if you spoil everyone else's fun you shouldn't be included.
Quick solution, set up an open source database for tournament organisers where they can list cheaters & their infractions. Then other tournaments can check this & decide whether to allow or ban players. Also, lifetime bans need to be that, lifetime. I'm pretty sure there was a massive cheater in the UK they had a lifetime ban lifted after only two years.
I came across stuff similar to this a lot in the early 2000’s which is what led me to quit till 10th just came out. Really hope organizers and the community take it more seriously and track people like this
There is no reason these known cheaters should be allowed to enter any public tabletop game. Should be publicly shamed and denied entrance to any event.
the weighted toilet dice can't even compare to this
The same happened some weeks ago in Spain with a Thousand Sons list. Around 12 rules/interactions invented. But none wants to talk about it, they prefer to hide it under the carpet. Let me say TO was notified at the begining of day 2 and that player was not disqualified, he ended 3rd.
That's fundamentally the issue with this edition. The streamlining that the return of USR was supposed to do is completely negated by every single unit having either a unique special rule or varrient of another units special rule. This is fundamentally worse than the strategems bloat in 9th because strategems required the spending of a resource to activate, abilities do not and most of the old wargear strategems have become unit abilities. Which when added to the changes in how leaders work, unforseen issues with keywords like devesating wounds and anti, and other issues makes it easy for players to just create fake rule interactions that do not exist. I blame GW though more than anything, this edition needed another half year or so in development to get it right but it was rushed out.
The shooting with guiding units thing is actually an unclarified grey area, gw hasn't specified if after you shoot you are no longer "eligible to shoot" and has seemingly implied that you still are?
Flg needs to actually have a way for TOs to flag cheaters. Also, if hes not banned from flg for this one, there is no enforcement and the whole format pretty much is a joke.
You cant remove him for cheating on score card only, he ruined at least 6 other players events and as such I think a permanent ban is warranted.
Considering that player is banned from events in several states.... including events in Florida and Arizona
I was at that event.
10:30
No. Don't give FLG an out like that. FLG can afford to fully staff a tournament. If they can't then they shouldn't be hosting tournaments.
His ITC points haven't been revoked. Currently still shows as him as 2nd at the event on BCP and on ITC rankings he was awarded the points.
What the hell happened to this community? We have new players cheering and insulting older players for having their units squated, rampant cheating and lax punishments for the cheaters, a laser focus on hyper competitiveness to the point where pickup games are expected to use tournament packs, TO's banning armies because they don't like rules. It's madness.
40K has gone to hell because of the tournament fixation.
As someone who's only in the hobby part, never played a game, the tournament scene seem like a chaotic playhouse full of manchildren an unprofessional organizers.
I know these cheaters are a minority but they're really souring the image of the game to those of us who just like building and painting models but would eventually like to play someday.
@@thegorefatherdonkhorneleon5159 Hard agree. I remember growing up when a store ran a Warhammer event it was always called a Game Day and not a tournament. It does seem to be a 40k specific problem. because I've gone to several Age of Sigmar tournaments where the entire field were pet lists. One of them everyone started to leave before prizes were given out because we forgot we were playing a "tournament" lol.
@@wolvie90 Best recommendation I have if you want to start playing is scout your local game stores. If they have a club for just hang out for a few weeks and see what the vibe is. If they play the Crusade mode for 40k that's a pretty good green flag and should be closer to the spirit of the game. If they're busting out the Leviathan Tournament Companion for pick up games bail out in a drop pod.
@@Proto1DudeI wouldn’t say crusade is a 100% green flag. Every crusade group I have played in has been ruined by competitive try hards running tournament lists!
Out of curiosity how did the TO allow the tournament to go ahead if they only had three staff members? Is there a minimum level of service expected at events like this?
I imagine they wish it could be 0 TOs and more profit 😅
To be fair, it's a new edition. They may have a usual set of guys 5 or 10 guys who would normally TO but don't feel confident enough to step into that role, especially at a sizable tourney. I guarantee this event was planned way in advance of the edition drop. Your options at that point are a) run a tournament with 3 TO's or b) cancel a 200+ player tournament at the last minute and eat the costs on cancelations and overhead. How many organizers do you think are gonna take option b?
@@AeronDuskglow thanks! As someone who has never attended a 40k tourne I am curious as to the set up. Would the TO not be able to ask of their staff to get sufficient practice in or are most staff voluntary/casual?
@@munchinbiscuits From what I know of other organizations that I've seen (that are not of this scale), it's a group of 'paid volunteers' at best. People who the organizers know that say "I know enough about this that I can be called it to make a ruling" that get some sort of compensation for doing so to make up for them not just playing in it themselves.
They should probably have a ticket cover costs of a few big things, judges, a set of dice they are required to use at the table where they cannot take them away from the tables, and a decent reporting system and resolution for issues. After the event, they can keep the set of dice they were given, considered bought as part of the tournament ticket.
Its one thing for a random stores tournament to go unreported and nearly casual, but if it is official in amy regards, there should be minimum standards for all these things. GW is not just a model company at this point....
I have not played 40K in years I have a question and a sorta defence. So in the "Through Unity, Devastation" It says "While this model is leading a unit" It does not say that the model needs to have the leadership ability. So while that guy is with his sniper drones that would be him leading a unit, am I wrong? Or do the rules say everything that even mentions or uses the word "Leading" means that they HAVE to have the Leadership ability or what not?
Thank you for making this content. Cheating should be absolutely unacceptable and should be called out LOUDLY. He should be named, shamed and banned from tournaments for years
Not going to happen, notorious cheaters like TJ lanigan are still winning events
I wish WGL had put him on stream. Would have been fabulous to get that BS recorded.
I was there at LSO the judges were very unknowlegable and didnt seem to know about soom rules. At one point I called a judge over and he looked at me and then went back to looking at his phone.
Years ago, during third or fourth edition, we had a guy that picked his army based on what cheese he can do. I had several players come to me and tell me why do the rules change when you’re not watching the table. And me being the guy running this league/good guys versus bad guys, And the only prize given the sportsmanship. That some of the better players that have been around to do tournaments also said that they’ve noticed Not against them, but against newer players, he would be the same thing and come up with weird stuff to win. I eventually had to throw them out.
Sun Tzu say, "Say that you are in aura range, even when you are not."
Incoming metawatch article about tau's success and the nerfs they're being given because of it.
Hopefully the article goes, Tau went undefeated at a tournament so we banned the cheater to nerf them back to normal.
I would say that rigging the dice can be more difficult to prove hence you need to do an extended investigation but the mere list could be avoided just by double checking everything is correct.
The problem with these "mistakes" is that we want to provide goodwill that no one is cheating but in the end this causes that good will to drain.... and in response well more drastical measures will be placed unfortunetly
He won 3rd place in March at the Rocky Mountain open as well....
loaded dice could be so easy to circumenvent, with the tournament holder giving out dice to use for everyone, dice are so cheap they can be easily be part of the entry fee
I had a guy pull a similar stunt. Tried to tell me he "knew" his army and I needed to just be quiet or get a judge called on me for intentionally "disrupting" his gameplay.
I dunno who tf he thought I was, but he thought VERY VERY wrong. I called his bs right then and there, and called the judge over myself. Looked him dead in the eyes and said "now we'll get this sorted." Soon as the TO came over I explained what he was doing, all the while the assclown was sputtering about updates and FAQs. Bottom line, TO sat at the table for the rest of his games. He lost every single one by large margins. My game I was able to swing back and win once he stopped dice manipulation and rules fuckery.
Morale of the story, the TO's are there for a reason, and if you have a legitimate concern, you fucking bring that shit up right then and there. Dont let ANYONE bully you into silence. Call em out. Period
On behave of the t’au empire, all septs and enclaves.
in accordance with the Tau'va.
we apologise, this individual is now placed as exile.
any damage or punishment put upon him, by any power, will not be retaliated by the t’au empire.
for the Tau'va.
Lol this guy was my only loss at BAO and we both rolled 6’s to start the game. Interesting in the moment felt like an ok game but looking back I wonder now.
I played him too at BAO. He also rolled a six to go first in our game, too. Had issues with him at SoCal 2021, and I'm shocked how much Frontline just ignores with this guy. He basically ruined the top 20 placing at BAO 2023 as well.
Why is it difficult to standardize events? FFS - standard rolling in an event provided tray, event provided dice, no codex no play, must provide a physical list to your opponent, etc, etc. So many of these event organizers are simply incompetent.
Did not expect a 300 item long list of things he cheated. Holy shit.
Where do I go to see the lists from this event?
Good thing you named the bloke, that is seriously necessary!
Bro made his own codex
Sounds like he’s got a lot going for him, if he’s resorting to cheating at playing with toys…
Ban him, eBay his army….
There should be a list share function on the GW app so you can ask your opponent to send them your list so you can help them if they make small mistakes or call people like this guy out
I've never been to a tournament where we didn't swap lists first thing.
I can't understand why anyone would behave like this. It's a communal hobby. Cheating ruins it for everyone, including yourself.
Because to people like this, winning is more important. It's the same reason people use aimbots and hax in online games.
well thats one of the main reasons why i quit competitive gaming, it was very common back when i played. Small stuff like saying they rolled more hits than they did, and being fast to pick up the dice, so when you did call it out, you could not prove it among other things, no cameras etc to prove anything. People like to win, and some do what ever to win.
Hold on, the rulebook says I needed a six sided die with numbers 1-6. It stated nothing about that die being weighted.
The enhancement and, "scout-tide" do sound odd, but for the other part, are we sure that his opponents understand how tetras work or that he took missile drones on his broadsides which would give him 6, 2 Damage Missile shots a turn?
Zero tolerance for cheaters. It ruins the whole game for everyone. Lifetime ban for this individual is a no-brainer.
At least he wasn't threatening murder with his crossbow.
cheaters flourish in anonymity, naming and shaming is the best policy.
Thank you for doing this. Dirtbags need to get called out.
i kinda wish events would supply dice to use, i know its expensive but it would go a long way
This cat was banned from competitive play a couple of years ago. So he was dealt with and hopefully will be again.
This is why I can't get into competitive. Playing against dudes who change their lists when I show up with mine or blatantly lie about a rule while I can see the rule they're lying about. Idk what makes it fun about cheating but I essentially just turn it into a test game to see what stuff I want to try for my list. Turns out using rapid ingress on a knight puts pressure even on cheaters
As a new player I make rules mistakes frequently. I would rather be corrected and lose than win by breaking the rules. There are several ways to reduce cheating. One method is more streamng tables to observe mechanics. Another would be a judge who is an expert in a faction conducting spot checks on lists.
Now that WH40K is growing, we need more judges and more third party observers on these games. Sure it's not going to catch it all, especially day 1 if there is 100 plus people. But other things like tournament dice would be huge.
Ya know what? A funny rule for this sort of stuff would be if X person has a past record of cheating in a GT, they are put in matches only with other cheaters.
Let them fight 🥷
Like CoD lobbies and hackers. Trap them in their own hubris
Could not agree more!!! Cheaters need to be NAMED, SHAMED, BANNED.
You ruin other peoples hard earned (especially these days) fun. All the time people put into their armies and hobby in general... then you get people like this... wasting peoples hard earned time, money and passion for the hobby... get out of our community. BLANKET
LIFE TIME BANS to be enforced for blatent repeat cheaters. Fully back
FLG should be ashamed to treat its tournament goers this terribly. This is what keeps people in Garagehammer and is one of the two main reasons I won't play outside a friend group.
People will cheat, if they think they can get away with it, or their arrogance has no bounds. Many years ago I used to play 40k, I played from 3rd edition through to 5th edition before I stopped playing. I was in my local community one of the best players, I am not exagerating. Kids would come to me asking me what army they should buy, which game set they should buy, I wasn't a member of staff.... I was another customer. I was being challenged week in week out by people wanting to beat me, and they would fail. It didnt matter what army I used, I had my favorites, of course, but I could run over a army book and choose a line up which was challenging and difficult to beat. There was no need to cheat. So I haven't played since 5th edition. I was challenged by a Eldar player against my Iron Warriors Chaos Marine Warband. This guy was fully aware, who I was, he was fully aware I've had 1000s of games with a 99% WR. I have lost games, but they were rare.
DISCLAIMER, I haven't played in over 15 years, I might be sketchy on some old rules.
Now this guy was using a Falcon Grav Tank. His armament was the Pulse Laser (standard, it was STR 9 and got D3 shots with a AP of 3), he had a Star Cannon (3 shots, STR 6 and an AP of 2). I had a Predator Tank, with the armour enhancement making the front armour 14 (13 standard). So this player decides, his Grav Tank is going to engage my Predator, he rolls his Pulse Laser D3 and gets 3 shots. He rolls his to hits and scores 1 hit and then he starts explaining to me, a Veteran of 20 years at that time, someone who knows every Army Book cover to cover, that his Pulse Laser, with its STR 9 and D3 shots.... ALSO counted as a Bright Lance. (A Bright Lance in 5th edition was a weapon which was STR 8, could fire once per turn had an AP of 3 and a special rule that any Armoured Vehicle, which had a Armour of 12 or more, had its armour reduced to a 12 for that weapon).... I was like, thats amazing, I've been playing Eldar for about 5 years (at that point) and I've never known there was such a thing as a Eldar Bright Lance Pulse Laser mounted on Eldar Vehicles. I asked him to show me where it says that in the Eldar Army book? As you can imagine he couldn't. The rule didnt exist.... I mean this guy I had noticed for several months now, he'd been in the store, playing little kids with little to no experience with Eldar who he was using this Bright Lance Pulse Laser on, I kept quiet, its not my place to interfere with someone elses game, its their perogative, to know the rules of the game, but the audacity of this guy, trying this blatant cheat, on me with my reputation at that time. Curiously I never saw him in store again after that game.
All I have to ask is WHY?! It's just a table top game. I know some events have some kind of reward but it's nothing that'll pay your bills or fund you a trip to somewhere. I compete in 40K cause it's a fun, easy get away from life once ever other other month. I'd love it if I ranked high and got some kind of reward, but I live with just doing what I can. This bullshit is just baffeling and honestly a black eye to a community that doesn't need it.
I've run in to my share of cheaters, from a person that deliberately "Misreads" the rules or leaves entire lines out, to people who have been removed from ITC events and given season bans for cheating (this guy still places high in local tournaments because his friend runs them).
Some is hard to tell with lackadaisical measuring being popular, (measuring from the front of the base then putting the model at the end of the tape measure adding the width of the base to your movement turning what should be an 8 inch charge in to a 6 inch charge being the most common thing I see, particularly with the opponents that like to play melee armies.
I don't understand why people would think this is fun, and something to lose friends over, and get ostracized from the community . The point of a hobby is to relax and have fun, the point of playing a game is to spend time with family or friends and have a good time doing something you all enjoy.
These people need to be called out when it happens, bans for repeat offenders and spread the word at your LGS, hey keep an eye on that guy he cheats with loaded dice, or doesn't measure properly (yes this really bugs me) or makes up his rules and stats as he goes. If you go to a tournament and see someone you know cheats, point them out to the judges and tell what he does. That puts the pressure on the TOs to do something about them.
There was that guy who got caught cheating on a live streamed table a couple years ago and all he got was a one year ITC "zero points" punishment.
If people really want a competitive 40K scene, then infractions like that one and this one need much stiffer penalties. This guy, were I in charge of the event would be named, his actions spread far and wide along with his face and he would be banned *for life* from any events I ran.
Organizations like ITC and FLG need to be far harsher in their punishment of cheating, especially when it's this obvious.
Itd be useful if the bcp to app allowed the judges to put the yellow card in there giving easy access for other tos to see when someone did wrong
I would fall for most points, but I would be extremely suspicious and look at the app to see if the SMS really has become a horde destroyer like this. Very unlikely stats. It used to be the weaker missile iirc, with the benefit of no los.
And cups are only used if you have very small dice, which is annoying to an opponent as well. Try 20 dice in a dice cup...
I was there and went 4 L and 2 W, I heard the same rumors but I didn’t go against the player thankfully but I only went against imperium and chaos as GK lol
Thanks for calling this out. I'm tired of cheaters, especially blatant or rules abusers. They definitely don't need to be playing 40k
"Calling cheaters out online can impact thier lives outside the game" < Tough shit. I have no pitty for any cheater or what happens to them. Shout out their names and share it with everyone so they get shunned by the community.
How did this blatant cheating not get called out by his opponent? I can imagine a minor thing flying under the radar, but this is ridiculous.