Carl, I lie prostrate before you, the master of metadata. Thanks for your excellent videos, for your enthusiasm and passion for the crucial but dry subject.
Carl, you have no imagination, how much this helped me. I am looking for months now for something doing exactly what you are showing, and allowing me to finally get completely rid of Lightroom. I alwas had the suspicion that Photo Mechanic might be able to do this efficiently and effectively, but never found out how, and was trying an endless number of other tools, always leaving me completely unsatisied. This video helped me to substantially improve my workflow and photo keywording (at least the way I want to do it). Thanks a lot!!!
Thanks, a great and best tutorial for keywording with Photo Mechanic. I have a question. Is there a way to move the Hierachical Keywords to arrange them in a different order from the panel. Or I need to export and do it from the text editor. I would like to move a couple of words into other and there's no way to do it or I just can't. Thanks again.
Hi Carl: Another very informative video. With respects to LR's issues with Hierarchical Keywording structure, would it be worth the exercise of cleaning up LR's messy structure within PM6+. I am a person that likes a neat and orderly present of keywords. If yes, can you provide any tips on how to strip-out the LR generated keyword on a bulk basis. I have approximately 200,000 to deal with. Thanks so much, Keith
An additional comment. At about 29.00 you wonder why anyone would want their changes to keywords to apply to all images, as happens with Lightroom. The answer is to make sure that all keywords are the the same for all images, particularly with regard to synonyms. If I have hundreds of images of Texas tortoises taken over many years and scattered over several locations, with the keyword ‘Texas tortoise’ already applied, and then I discover the scientific name for that creature and decide to add it as a synonym, I want that synonym to appear for every single instance of a Texas tortoise, not just the ones on which I have done the keywording since I discovered the scientific name. And if I need to correct a spelling in relation to a keyword already used for a number of images, I want that correction to apply to every instance immediately, not just those I have most recently found. I can do all this with Lightroom’s catalogue, which does this automatically, but it is not practical way to manage a large number of images by way of search and replace with Photo Mechanic. Hopefully once PM does finally come up with its long promised catalogue, this functionality will be available, but for now automatic updating of amended keywords with or without their synonyms is something that PM can’t really do efficiently.
Actually, I said it in the video. Lightroom works as both a photo editing program AND a DAM. Since it doesn't have a files and folders mode - it only works in a database mode - you could even argue that it's more of a DAM than a photo "preparation", let's call it, program. Thus, in that DAM-ish view, batch editing of existing metadata is a needed function. Indeed, most big-time DAMs have it. In Lighroom's case, the functionality isn't what photo "preparers" might expect. And I warn such users to be careful. This is another reason why so many people use Photo Mechanic or something similar at the front end of a workflow that uses Lightroom (Classic) for its RAW conversion, toning, and DAM functions. Whenever Photo Mechanic includes a catalog function, it will have one foot firmly planted on each side of the fence. It will be interesting to see how they handle the new conflicting objectives. It's no wonder it's taking them a while to develop the new version. Then there's ON1 RAW. It's early days yet for them, but having a foot in each camp is a main design feature there. They have both files-and-folders and cataloged capabilities from day one. All in an interface that they mean to keep more streamlined than Lightroom and even Photo Mechanic. We'll see how their keywording tools develop over time.
Another excellent video. If I may, I would add a comment to the description of the Lightroom hierarchical keywords at around 37 minutes of the video. I use Lightroom (now Classic CC) with hierarchical keywording. I have nearly 500k images with a correspondingly large number of keywords: a flat keywording system would simply be inadequate. The piped duplication appears as you describe, although you can go back and forth between PM and LR maintaining the hierarchy in each without creating duplicates: what you really do not want to do is send images to LR which do not maintain the hierarchy because this creates flat duplicates within the LR catalogue and messes up your carefully created hierarchy. Where I really need my final form of keywords is in my final exported image, usually a JPEG file derived from the RAW file processed in LR. My workflow is as follows. I edit the image having applied keywords using my hierarchical keywords in LR with all their synonyms. Then when I export the file (i.e. create the JPEG file), I untick in the LR export dialogue in the Metadata section “Write keywords as Lightroom hierarchy” (actually I have an export preset so I do not have to do this every time). The resulting JPEG then only contains the LR keywords in flat format, so the extra LR XMP entry is not created. I then use PM to edit/add to my keywords before doing whatever I am doing with the final image, which I can do seeing only one set of keywords, and excluding the headings and non-exporting keywords which would have been included had this check box not been cleared. It may be a bit convoluted, but it works well for me, and allows me to remove keywords from within the hierarchy and to sort them in a non-alphabetical order (neither of which I can do in LR). And if and when I move wholly to PM for keywording, once the apparently imminent PM6 is released and its long-awaited catalogue, then maybe I will not have to do this, but so long as I use LR as my DAM as well as RAW converter, this seems to me to be the least painful way to work with keywords.
Indeed! Another excellent Lightroom tip for workflows where photos are exported before re-editing in Photo Mechanic. Or just in general. To amplify a little - In addition to an option to not export Lightroom hierarchical keywords, the export dialog includes options to block export of any keywords classified by Lightroom as "People Keywords" (generally the product of Lightroom's facial recognition feature), and location information derived from GPS data. (Lightroom can parse GPS coordinates and fill in location fields, all the way down to street addresses.) On top of that, Lightroom has options per-keyword for how that keyword will behave on export. That is useful because keywording is such an individual thing. It's good to be able to tailor how keywords are exported, depending on to whom or to what system you're exporting. Jeffery Friedl's excellent line of Lightroom plugins includes some devoted to refining how metadata, including keywords, are exported from Lightroom. Worth checking out for viewers who need to precisely target keyword export. Do you have one Lightroom catalog with all 500,000 images? How does Lightroom perform with a catalog that big?
Carl Seibert, yes I use a single catalog. My PC is a few years old now, but it copes reasonably well with a catalog this size, although I have all the general performance issues that plague Lightroom anyway. The most annoying problem is searching for keywords. As you may imagine, I have a large number of them. If I type the word fast enough, it finds the matching strings fairly quickly. If, however, I pause after the first letter, then it is seems to start searching for every occurrence of that letter, and once it starts it will not let you stop it. If, therefore, I do not type the first few characters fast enough, Lightroom will freeze for maybe a minute or even more, not letting me continue typing - a real DOH! moment every time I do this. It is very annoying that Lightroom only searches on the fly, instead of giving you an option to search by an exact string or whole word. The other problem I have, which may or may not be related to catalog size, is that my keywords include a number of instances of the same words in different places in the hierarchy, obviously with different ancestor keywords or synonyms. Sometimes I find that, even though I have selected the correct version, the keywords which are exported are from another version. I had this happen yesterday: the same 3 word keyword phrase occurs twice in very different places within the hierarchy, once capitalised and once not (which makes it easy to see which I have selected): although I selected the capitalised version, the keywords which were exported were those relating to the lower case version with its particular very different parents and synonyms.
I always make sure to write any metadata edits to the files right away. I don't know if you already do that or of it would help at all with your export problem, but I'll throw it out there.
Carl Seibert, thanks, yes everything is always updated immediately. In the latest example I had been working with a series of RAW files over a couple of days and I exported each to JPG as I finished it. It was only when I reviewed the keywords (in PM) before uploading the JPGs that the problem of the wrong keywords became apparent. This does not always happen, but I have noticed it on perhaps half a dozen separate occasions, apparently becoming more frequent as the size of my keyword library expands. As yet, I have not been able to detect any pattern which suggests a cause, nor have I seen the issue discussed elsewhere. I have plenty of non-unique keywords in my hierarchy with which there has never been a problem.
@@carlseibert5311 Adobe has invented the LR-specific tag Hierarchical Subject, and you can switch this off in LR (?). Switching this off is great but unfortunately this is not possbile in Capture One, this LR tag is always written by C1 although my images never saw LR, just because I use hirarchical keywords in C1. Btw, C1's keyword tool is great, somehow DAMish I would say, besides many other possibilities you can efficiently select multiple images and immediately see which keywords all selected images have in common, which of them are not assigend to all but only a few selected images, and add them by a click rto all, or remove them from all selected images by one click etc. Imo the most efficiecent way to keyword images, maybe inheritet from the famous Media Pro(?). Problem is that C1 always writes this hierarchical Subject into the xmp file (for raw files), and if there is no switch in PM to ignore this tag but instead PM even COPIES the piped keyword strings to the other fields, then that is what's creating a mess if loaded into Capture One again (roundtrip). I would blame PM in the first place, then Capture One, then Adobe, in that exact order. I tested this with manually updated xmp files according on the tags you show in the video. But maybe I'm lucky and meanwhile in PM6+ it can be configured to ignore the Hierarchical Subject, will have to test this. My goal is to find a DAM or catalog spanning all my raw files and derivatives (jpgs etc.) mainly to be edited by C1 (sessions, not catalog) and DXO, sometimes other editors, and the new catalog being my central hub to search for an image or a set of images and "open with" the mentioned developers/editors. If I understand PM6+ correctly the catalog(s) only work as an indexing facility for searching, but the keywording principles are still the oldschool PM principles, so not exactly DAMish but PRE-PROCCESSORish? Many are quite satisfied with PhotoSupreme or iMatch, but my problem with both is that either is run by a one-man show. Maybe PM+ will be the software with the least compromises, I'm really hoping a good photographers DAM will come along which integrates well with all the major raw developers/editors, not just with Adobe mist. Cheers, Marc, btw, very helpful and well-done videos!
I think the direct expansion of hierarchical keywords is pretty bad decision and i dont' know why you would do this instead of going the Lightroom way. Yeah from the document archival point of view i understand, but for organisation, it is important to modify old tagged photos.
Carl, I lie prostrate before you, the master of metadata. Thanks for your excellent videos, for your enthusiasm and passion for the crucial but dry subject.
Brilliant tutorial as usual
You make a potentially complicated subject easier to understand. Many thanks Carl
Thank you very much! It's gratifying to see that you binge watched a fistful of my videos. I hope to post some more soon.
Carl, you have no imagination, how much this helped me. I am looking for months now for something doing exactly what you are showing, and allowing me to finally get completely rid of Lightroom. I alwas had the suspicion that Photo Mechanic might be able to do this efficiently and effectively, but never found out how, and was trying an endless number of other tools, always leaving me completely unsatisied.
This video helped me to substantially improve my workflow and photo keywording (at least the way I want to do it). Thanks a lot!!!
You're very welcome. Happy Holidays!
Thank you. This is extremely informative and helpful.
Just what I needed. Thanks again...
Thank's for your video Carl very interesting i'm new on PM and with your video make easy work with Pm Happy New Year
You're very welcome. May 2121 be a good year for you!
Thanks, a great and best tutorial for keywording with Photo Mechanic. I have a question. Is there a way to move the Hierachical Keywords to arrange them in a different order from the panel. Or I need to export and do it from the text editor. I would like to move a couple of words into other and there's no way to do it or I just can't. Thanks again.
Hi Carl: Another very informative video. With respects to LR's issues with Hierarchical Keywording structure, would it be worth the exercise of cleaning up LR's messy structure within PM6+. I am a person that likes a neat and orderly present of keywords. If yes, can you provide any tips on how to strip-out the LR generated keyword on a bulk basis. I have approximately 200,000 to deal with. Thanks so much, Keith
An additional comment. At about 29.00 you wonder why anyone would want their changes to keywords to apply to all images, as happens with Lightroom. The answer is to make sure that all keywords are the the same for all images, particularly with regard to synonyms. If I have hundreds of images of Texas tortoises taken over many years and scattered over several locations, with the keyword ‘Texas tortoise’ already applied, and then I discover the scientific name for that creature and decide to add it as a synonym, I want that synonym to appear for every single instance of a Texas tortoise, not just the ones on which I have done the keywording since I discovered the scientific name. And if I need to correct a spelling in relation to a keyword already used for a number of images, I want that correction to apply to every instance immediately, not just those I have most recently found. I can do all this with Lightroom’s catalogue, which does this automatically, but it is not practical way to manage a large number of images by way of search and replace with Photo Mechanic. Hopefully once PM does finally come up with its long promised catalogue, this functionality will be available, but for now automatic updating of amended keywords with or without their synonyms is something that PM can’t really do efficiently.
Actually, I said it in the video.
Lightroom works as both a photo editing program AND a DAM. Since it doesn't have a files and folders mode - it only works in a database mode - you could even argue that it's more of a DAM than a photo "preparation", let's call it, program. Thus, in that DAM-ish view, batch editing of existing metadata is a needed function. Indeed, most big-time DAMs have it. In Lighroom's case, the functionality isn't what photo "preparers" might expect. And I warn such users to be careful. This is another reason why so many people use Photo Mechanic or something similar at the front end of a workflow that uses Lightroom (Classic) for its RAW conversion, toning, and DAM functions.
Whenever Photo Mechanic includes a catalog function, it will have one foot firmly planted on each side of the fence. It will be interesting to see how they handle the new conflicting objectives. It's no wonder it's taking them a while to develop the new version.
Then there's ON1 RAW. It's early days yet for them, but having a foot in each camp is a main design feature there. They have both files-and-folders and cataloged capabilities from day one. All in an interface that they mean to keep more streamlined than Lightroom and even Photo Mechanic. We'll see how their keywording tools develop over time.
Another excellent video. If I may, I would add a comment to the description of the Lightroom hierarchical keywords at around 37 minutes of the video. I use Lightroom (now Classic CC) with hierarchical keywording. I have nearly 500k images with a correspondingly large number of keywords: a flat keywording system would simply be inadequate. The piped duplication appears as you describe, although you can go back and forth between PM and LR maintaining the hierarchy in each without creating duplicates: what you really do not want to do is send images to LR which do not maintain the hierarchy because this creates flat duplicates within the LR catalogue and messes up your carefully created hierarchy.
Where I really need my final form of keywords is in my final exported image, usually a JPEG file derived from the RAW file processed in LR. My workflow is as follows. I edit the image having applied keywords using my hierarchical keywords in LR with all their synonyms. Then when I export the file (i.e. create the JPEG file), I untick in the LR export dialogue in the Metadata section “Write keywords as Lightroom hierarchy” (actually I have an export preset so I do not have to do this every time). The resulting JPEG then only contains the LR keywords in flat format, so the extra LR XMP entry is not created. I then use PM to edit/add to my keywords before doing whatever I am doing with the final image, which I can do seeing only one set of keywords, and excluding the headings and non-exporting keywords which would have been included had this check box not been cleared.
It may be a bit convoluted, but it works well for me, and allows me to remove keywords from within the hierarchy and to sort them in a non-alphabetical order (neither of which I can do in LR). And if and when I move wholly to PM for keywording, once the apparently imminent PM6 is released and its long-awaited catalogue, then maybe I will not have to do this, but so long as I use LR as my DAM as well as RAW converter, this seems to me to be the least painful way to work with keywords.
Indeed! Another excellent Lightroom tip for workflows where photos are exported before re-editing in Photo Mechanic. Or just in general.
To amplify a little - In addition to an option to not export Lightroom hierarchical keywords, the export dialog includes options to block export of any keywords classified by Lightroom as "People Keywords" (generally the product of Lightroom's facial recognition feature), and location information derived from GPS data. (Lightroom can parse GPS coordinates and fill in location fields, all the way down to street addresses.)
On top of that, Lightroom has options per-keyword for how that keyword will behave on export. That is useful because keywording is such an individual thing. It's good to be able to tailor how keywords are exported, depending on to whom or to what system you're exporting.
Jeffery Friedl's excellent line of Lightroom plugins includes some devoted to refining how metadata, including keywords, are exported from Lightroom. Worth checking out for viewers who need to precisely target keyword export.
Do you have one Lightroom catalog with all 500,000 images? How does Lightroom perform with a catalog that big?
Carl Seibert, yes I use a single catalog. My PC is a few years old now, but it copes reasonably well with a catalog this size, although I have all the general performance issues that plague Lightroom anyway. The most annoying problem is searching for keywords. As you may imagine, I have a large number of them. If I type the word fast enough, it finds the matching strings fairly quickly. If, however, I pause after the first letter, then it is seems to start searching for every occurrence of that letter, and once it starts it will not let you stop it. If, therefore, I do not type the first few characters fast enough, Lightroom will freeze for maybe a minute or even more, not letting me continue typing - a real DOH! moment every time I do this. It is very annoying that Lightroom only searches on the fly, instead of giving you an option to search by an exact string or whole word.
The other problem I have, which may or may not be related to catalog size, is that my keywords include a number of instances of the same words in different places in the hierarchy, obviously with different ancestor keywords or synonyms. Sometimes I find that, even though I have selected the correct version, the keywords which are exported are from another version. I had this happen yesterday: the same 3 word keyword phrase occurs twice in very different places within the hierarchy, once capitalised and once not (which makes it easy to see which I have selected): although I selected the capitalised version, the keywords which were exported were those relating to the lower case version with its particular very different parents and synonyms.
I always make sure to write any metadata edits to the files right away. I don't know if you already do that or of it would help at all with your export problem, but I'll throw it out there.
Carl Seibert, thanks, yes everything is always updated immediately. In the latest example I had been working with a series of RAW files over a couple of days and I exported each to JPG as I finished it. It was only when I reviewed the keywords (in PM) before uploading the JPGs that the problem of the wrong keywords became apparent. This does not always happen, but I have noticed it on perhaps half a dozen separate occasions, apparently becoming more frequent as the size of my keyword library expands. As yet, I have not been able to detect any pattern which suggests a cause, nor have I seen the issue discussed elsewhere. I have plenty of non-unique keywords in my hierarchy with which there has never been a problem.
@@carlseibert5311 Adobe has invented the LR-specific tag Hierarchical Subject, and you can switch this off in LR (?). Switching this off is great but unfortunately this is not possbile in Capture One, this LR tag is always written by C1 although my images never saw LR, just because I use hirarchical keywords in C1.
Btw, C1's keyword tool is great, somehow DAMish I would say, besides many other possibilities you can efficiently select multiple images and immediately see which keywords all selected images have in common, which of them are not assigend to all but only a few selected images, and add them by a click rto all, or remove them from all selected images by one click etc. Imo the most efficiecent way to keyword images, maybe inheritet from the famous Media Pro(?).
Problem is that C1 always writes this hierarchical Subject into the xmp file (for raw files), and if there is no switch in PM to ignore this tag but instead PM even COPIES the piped keyword strings to the other fields, then that is what's creating a mess if loaded into Capture One again (roundtrip).
I would blame PM in the first place, then Capture One, then Adobe, in that exact order. I tested this with manually updated xmp files according on the tags you show in the video. But maybe I'm lucky and meanwhile in PM6+ it can be configured to ignore the Hierarchical Subject, will have to test this.
My goal is to find a DAM or catalog spanning all my raw files and derivatives (jpgs etc.) mainly to be edited by C1 (sessions, not catalog) and DXO, sometimes other editors, and the new catalog being my central hub to search for an image or a set of images and "open with" the mentioned developers/editors. If I understand PM6+ correctly the catalog(s) only work as an indexing facility for searching, but the keywording principles are still the oldschool PM principles, so not exactly DAMish but PRE-PROCCESSORish?
Many are quite satisfied with PhotoSupreme or iMatch, but my problem with both is that either is run by a one-man show. Maybe PM+ will be the software with the least compromises, I'm really hoping a good photographers DAM will come along which integrates well with all the major raw developers/editors, not just with Adobe mist.
Cheers, Marc,
btw, very helpful and well-done videos!
I think the direct expansion of hierarchical keywords is pretty bad decision and i dont' know why you would do this instead of going the Lightroom way.
Yeah from the document archival point of view i understand, but for organisation, it is important to modify old tagged photos.