6233 Duchess of Sutherland really struggles at Whitacre Junction hauling the Christmas White Rose
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
- This video features No. 6233 Duchess of Sutherland hauling the Christmas White Rose.
I was expecting the usual run past at Whitacre Junction but what happened was a complete surprise. To be fair RTT was reporting the Duchess having to let a service train pass but I was expecting that to be before the junction. However, the Duchess really struggled to get the train moving and it was a pleasant surprise that the diesel at the rear was not providing assistance.
How absolutely beautiful. So many people around the world enjoying this as if we were there too. Thank you.
My pleasure and comments like yours makes producing videos more worthwhile. Thank you for taking an interest. Regards, John
What a superb chance to see this gloriously beautiful engine up close and personal instead of rushing past. It is my favourite engine and one day, just maybe, I'll be lucky enough to be hauled by he] but my time is running out. Thank you for this.
I certainly hope your wish comes true. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
I don't know why but magnificent engines like that literally bring a tear to the eye - or is it just me?
No I get what you are saying as at 83 years old the Duchess is a fantastic old girl. Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
It's just scrap but keeps the enthusiasts fit for videos.
Enjoyed that very much!
Her slow journey made it easier to take it all in.
Your comment is most welcome and I am glad you enjoyed the video. Regards, John
Wonderful, so glad that 6233 Duchess of Sutherland finally made it. What a beautiful steam locomotive she is...great video and I sincerely thank you for sharing!
I agree with you. Thanks for your watching and for your comment. Regards, John
@@GreatBritishRailways1 You're more than welcome!
Well done to both the Duchess and the cameraman - a fine performance from both!
What a great comment. Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. Regards, John
Experience and skill evident here from the crew. Great footage. Thanks for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for your watching and for your comment. Regards, John
That was hard work!! Amazing smoke rings though. Testament to driver skill to manage without 47 shoving. Just imagine what it was like in real stark days!! Great video again, thanks
Great points! Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
Know just how the old lady feels. She will get you there - in her own time!
An amusing comment and thanks for watching. Regards, John
No idea where you get "really struggles" from. They approached the signal at danger slowly hoping not to have to stop, but clearly that never happened. Pulling away from that point, damp rails, slightly uphill, with all the load tight on the bend was going to need to be an exercise in power and control. Which the crew did superbly with minimum slip and pretty smartly getting momentum. The fact the diesel was never really pushing says the crew were happy and confident to get the lot going. Good video tho.
It's all about grabbing the viewers attention and it certainly worked on this occasion. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
what a load of rubbish the driver was out of control and too much sanding and no idea how to get out of trouble that's why the diesel way in gear pushing from the back otherwise they would have been there a lot longer with out the class 47
@@GreatBritishRailways1 "it's about grabbing the viewers attention" yes but with that technique viewers will gradually doubt the credibility of the titles
@@david-stewart David, It was about grabbing viewer's attention and I would agree if the words used were misleading or not relevant but in the case the word "struggling", my view, was most apt. The dictionary definition of the word reads, striving to achieve or attain something in the face of difficulty or resistance. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
@@GreatBritishRailways1 what a load of guff.
Thanks for another excellent video, John and Andrew, with variety (in the form of the unexpected) being the spice of life. Much enjoyed and your editing gave an illustration of the rate of acceleration once adhesion was restored. Very pleased to see the title wording have the desired effect. Kind regards, Bob
Bob, Some viewers objected to the word "struggled" as it could be construed as a measure of the Duchesses capability. However the word appeared to have the desired effect as my viewing figure has gone through the roof when compared to my norm. Thanks for your watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Interesting that as soon as the Duchess got onto the main line, she just breezed away!
Brian, More than enough power once the obstacles had been removed. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Stunning.
Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Fabulous…many thanks for this close up of the action. Great smoke ring at the start👍
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for your watching and for your comment. Regards, John
That was a troublesome curve for sure. Glad to see she back in her groove when enough of the train had come round.
Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
Good Man on her Regulator ! Note she doesn't "hang about" once the grip is restored. A great bit of filming. Thank You.
Thanks for watching and for your comment. Much appreciated. Regards, John
It was pulling the equivalent of 14 coaches (11 plus diesel engine), starting on an incline - without assistance.
Fair comment. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Wet rails
Another great video John. I’ve seen that location from the train and always wondered what it’d be like for steam. Im travelling on Saturday so look forward to seeing your videos if your out and about.
Luke, It is a great location which I have used many times before but going into the loop was a first for me. Whilst this was a surprise for me it has done my viewing figures a power of good. As for tomorrow the weather forecast is for fog which may present some challenges and opportunities. Regards, John
Supurb video and a great piece of driving by the crew 👌👌
Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Excellent shots John, great to see the Duchess do it by herself rather than getting a push and you picked the right spot to be at, regards nige👍
Nige, I was expecting a 90 second video, tops. To have all this unfold in front of me was unreal. Regards, John
You certainly got your money's worth there John! Great footage as usual. Cheers, Rob
Rob, Not what I was expecting but the viewing figures speak volumes. Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
Excellent. The stanier coronation class wouldn’t give in , determination of both driver and machine and pride of the footplate at stake .
Yes a few people have commented why assistance from the diesel wasn't summoned buy assumption was to do with driver pride. Regards, John
Lovely rail movie with nice Steam locomotive! Good work, master! Thumbs Up
Greetings from Romania
Andrew
Thank you very much! Hope you are all safe and well in Romania. Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
Great video quality (as usual). The smoke rings were a real surprise (never seen that before).
Shame the 47 wasn't assisting more though, made me feel sorry for the poor Duchess.
Glad you enjoyed it and I hadn't noticed the smoke rings. Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
Very Good Video
The Duchess looks in great condition.
Certainly looks good for an 83 year old. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Great video but having been hauled by the Duchess many times in the past, I'm sure things would have been a lot different if she hadn't had to drag over 100 tons of diesel on top of a heavily loaded train round a curve on greasy rails.
Yes the sharp curve and a heavy diesel at the rear all contributed to this scene. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
You're quite right of course!
I would prefer to see a shadow assistance locomotive following up in the rear, maybe 600+ metres behind the main consist, that way not trying to haul the diesel's weight together with the main train.
Makes sense, but being British, we don't like doing the obvious!
Great video capture too.🙂👍
@@mervynsands3501 ^^^^ Definitely not this 😂
@@mervynsands3501 Hi Mervyn, it's nothing to do with Britishness. To split a train as you describe would be to completely abandon the principle of absolute block working. This method of working was made compulsory under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 shortly after the Armagh disaster when the crew, faced with a stalled train on a rising gradient, decided to split their train. The rear portion broke away down the gradient and collided with a following train. Had there been absolute block working in force there wouldn't have been any following train. 80 people were killed.
Absolute block working is a fascinating subject and there's a book entitled Red For Danger by LTC Rolt which describes how the lessons from railway accidents were applied and the railways made safer.
Best wishes
@@dereklund2321 that's all well and fine, I'm with you on that Derek, but it still doesn't require a diesel being lugged behind the consist adding an extra 4 coaches dead weight in tow.
So make the shadow loco run in block behind to suit the situation. We're living in the 21st century with high tech systems which weren't available in the pioneering days of railways.
Surely some accommodation can be agreed that satisfies all and sundry.
Nice video but have to disagree with "diesel at the rear was not providing assistance" as clearly it was, unfortunately. Watch carefully and you will notice the sudden change from "struggling" to sudden acceleration at 6.00 which suggests a shove from the rear! The diesel is clearly applying power as she passes by. Same on second part, diesel giving the Duchess a shove. Oh well, still a joy to see 6233 on the mainline
Good point and thanks for watching and providing your comment. Regards, John
I'm with you on that but few seem to agree. Had it done so from start there would have been no slipping and had it not used any power at all 6233 would not have suddenly 'picked up her feet' and gained such rapid momentum.
The weight of the diesel hanging right at the back on a tight curve like that significantly increases the challenge in making a get away much much more than just the weight of the diesel loco might indicate, due to the increase in rolling resistance of all the coaches in the bend . if the diesel had been behind the tender of 6233 there would have been much less drama.
Yes, and enhanced all the photographs that were taken!
Thank you for your well informed comment and for watching the video. Regards, John
Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
The Duchess is an absolute beast of a loco, probably the most powerful steam loco in preservation in the UK. How can she possibly be expected to cope with worn and slippery tracks, especially in the shape of freight loops, regardless of load. It's like putting a V12 engine in a mini and asking it to accelerate rapidly on ice!!
Sorry 71000 "Duke of Gloucester" is more powerful, and we have the Dynamometer car print outs to prove it !
I agree the conditions were against the Duchess but she did overcome them with very little assistance from the 47. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
@@JamesSmith-mv9fp my favourite , vindicated , after being re-built as he should have been originally !
@@JamesSmith-mv9fp Surely the Black Prince, it still holds the record for the heaviest train hauled by steam!
@@JamesSmith-mv9fp BR Class 8 more powerful than a Princess Coronation Class?
Excellent footage John and Andrew, it's strange to see the mighty Duchess, struggling like this. Plenty of stem to lift the safety valves, but there seems to be problems under the boiler..Let's hope they sort her out soon, she can do much better than this...Regards...Bob
Bob, I believe a combination of a heavy load, a sharp curve and a loop that is little used contributed to the Duchess's problems. However, I am not complaining as my viewing figures are sky high compared with the norm.I hope you and Mrs. M are keeping safe and well. Regards, John
What a superb designed locomotive she is. The shape, the wheels, the colour, the tender, everything. I am curious as to why did the locomotive struggle so much? I mean, it did not have that many carriages, right?
The reason for the slipping was a slight gradient coupled with a tight curve. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
@@GreatBritishRailways1 Thank you for the answer.
I was also wondering why the diesel didn't buffer up to the last coach and take some of the weight? I don't know that area at all, but I hope it didn't cause Network Rail any delays, we don't want bills "for delay minutes" being attributed to the locomotive owners. It did make a great video though.
Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. Regards, John
Think you all have it wrong. She was just playing to the camera getting more exposure. Soon as she was past , picked up speed. Job done
I'll take that theory as the viewing figures, compared with my norm, are astronomical. Thanks for your watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Looks like the weight in the train has really made the duchess struggling around the corner they should have get the diesel locomotive to help push it along
Scott, Usually there is too much assistance from the rear but fortunately not on this occasion. Regards, John
@@GreatBritishRailways1 really
Great footage and very good choice of locations John and Andrew, looks like the RHTT train should have used the loop. Regards Mike.
Mike, It was a strange turn of events and all too often the driver of the diesel at the rear gets over excited and there is nothing to show but a train exiting a loop. I am grateful to the diesel driver for allowing this great show to unveil. Regards, John
Hi John, I was filming just the other side of the bridge next to the high fence and my wife was filming near your last shot. You captured the steam well. Regards Chris
Chris, I certainly had a unexpected grandstand view. Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
Here's a thought. The three carriage Class 170 is twenty tonnes lighter than the beautiful 6233.
I know which one I would rather have. Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
Great capture! thank you
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
Not good to see her struggling John, but it was certainly a case of right time, right place to capture it
Austin, Not what I was expecting but a great show and has done my viewing figures a power of good. Regards, John
one of my favorite trains
Yes she is a magnificent loco. Thanks for watching and providing your comment. Regards, John
A random question for this vid. When people designed steam locomotives, especially of the size here why weren’t they designed with the cab at the front? I understand aesthetics come in, evolution of what came before and the fact you’d still need a tender and unless you further extended the cab beyond the tender (and separate driver and fireman) then the locomotive would effectively be running tender first which proves its own limitations. The question remains though, for visibility why weren’t large steam locomotives designed with the driver at the (very) front of the locomotive?
There were a few cab-forward locomotives in the USA. Probably easier to implement with oil firing. The boiler would have to be reversed. Then there is a need for access to the smoke box.
The Leader was another attempt at a cab -forward layout.
As long as the signals are visible there is no need for a specially good view.
I am no expert but I guess in terms of design the key function is to have a large supply of coal and water near to the boiler and the firebox. Without mechanical stokers to deliver the coal to the firebox the current design is logical. Thanks for your watching and for your comment. Regards, John
very good captures. thank you
As ever, thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
1:15 perfect smoke ring
Well spotted as I hadn't noticed that. Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
I had a problem with a 142 going up to Oldham Werneth [3mph]. Took me 1.25 hrs to get from Man Vic To Oldham Mumps on a Sunday in winter. Was on a treble Rochdale via Oldham.
When it started to rain [after swaping units on the second trip - got 5mph with that unit], I eventually got 15mph! lol
I had to stop once as I thought I was going to roll back! lol The passengers asked me if I needed a push as they couls walk faster! lol
A fascinating tale. Thanks for your watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Very good.
The Duchesses were prone to slipping (not quite as much as the Bulleid light pacifics) and I recall a tale, although wasn't present, of a Duchess slipping so much at Euston that the driver was unable to close the regulator and the wheels ground the head off the rails.
John, An interesting tale and must have been quite a sight and sound. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Shades of 'Blue Peter' in 1994 at Durham with devastating results...... She actually set a new steam record of 154 mph while standing still !!
@@SYKAROST Wow, I didn't know that amazing fact. All that weight transfer to Pacific pony trucks has a lot to answer for.
@@johnclayden1670 Watch it here John......
ua-cam.com/video/FsS6iU6vftI/v-deo.html
@@SYKAROST Thanks. Wheel slide - most impressive, the more so for a 2-8-0.
Wasn't there also a tale of a Pullman train that slid down through Gasworks tunnel, (location?) grinding flats on all the wheels that had then to be taken out of service for replacement of all the wheelsets?
Probably the weight of the diesel behind that caused the problem!
Undoubtedly. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Excellent job
James, thank you for watching and your kind comment. Regards, John
Am I correct in saying that the diesel is not there to push, but to pull the train on its return journey as no turntables are in place on any particular line?
You are correct as the main purpose of the diesel is for positional moves at the destination but there is a secondary role to assist when called upon to do so. Thanks for your watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Sanders seemed to be completely ineffective, wheels were spinning despite them being on. The rails must be particularly slippery in that loop
Not the best rail conditions tbh. Can be a bit tricky with a heavy freight to. The Duchess did rather well considering the 47 wasn't assisting. Soon got in her stride once the trailing load was off the curve.
Perhaps a combination of too much weight, a sharp curve and a little used loop contributed to this dramatic turn of events. Thanks for watching and your comment. Regards, John
Interesseting video :)
Glad you think so! Regards, John
Just wow 🤩
High praise indeed. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Nice to see it back in the LMS fire lake livery. It looked awful in green.
Yes I agree with you. Thanks for watching and providing your comment. Regards, John
you would struggle if you had to pull a great heavy deisel engine.
Perhaps it needs a new magnet, my Hornby Dutches of Sutherland did.
That's true. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
The 47 was providing assistance, but only on notch 2 or so…probably enough to allow for its own weight.
Thanks for watching and your expert comment. Regards, John
I did consider that shot John but didn't fancy the stop in the loop. Although confusing,that's actually the down (Bi Directional) Arley Loop although times show Whitacre Jct afterwards?? The problem there is that the drag on the curve caused her to slip but he did eventually ask the 47 to assist or it would have taken forever ....if at all!! This is an example of where the 47 has to compensate for it's own weight which is equal to almost four standard coaches and should have been asked for the minute they got the road...... Too much faffing about on board this loco!! Regards, Brian.
Brian, This unexpected turn of events including smoke rings that I hadn't noticed has done my viewing figures a power of good. Regards, John
And you're an 'expert' on locomotive handling because.....?
@@anubis6864 Probably a damn sight more than you but I don't need to justify myself to a 'watcher only' unless you'd like to share your 'expertise'??
The diesel did assist you can see the thrash towards the end
Yes it is a climb to Arley Tunnel and having lost some time getting away from the loop at Whitacre Junction we can forgive the crew for seeking a bit of assistance. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Aside from the operational comments etc; whats that guy to the left doing on the live line without a hi vis vest. muppets trespassing again.
Yes I noticed the trespasser and loco stopped at first right by him so I assume the crew were quite rightly giving him grief. Thanks for your watching and for your comment. Regards, John
Great footage John, , wonder why was the 47 driver not helping, cheers .👍
Steve, That's a good question perhaps driver pride? Regards, John
From 6.00 onwards it was being pushed. No UK steam engine with that load could accellerate at that rate without help.
So what happened on the return journey, I went to Coleshill to watch and was disappointed, it was the diesel hauling, did 6233 get left behind?
The Duchess came off at Barrow Hill and returned to York ready for today's trip to Cambridge and then on to London for Saturday's railtour to York which was part of its substitution for Tornado.
@@GreatBritishRailways1 Ah, thank you, wish I could have known that before making a wasted trip :D
@@olixbob A source of information is the Railway Herald website and click on the Railtours tab
Why not push with the diesel straight away?
Driver pride perhaps? Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment. Regards, John
Sounded like the 47 was giving a little assistance.
Not much though which created an interesting video. Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
@@GreatBritishRailways1 It begs the question then. Why dont they use the power of what's on the back to get out of trouble instead of all that faffing about. It just doesn't make sense.
@@AndreA-ke2id I am no expert but I do have friends who were ex steam locomotive drivers and am told there is a sense of pride amongst some drivers and they would only ask for banking assistance as a last resort. Regards, John
@@GreatBritishRailways1 Thank you John, that makes sense. I can understand the level of pride they have and the confidence in their skills to get themselves out of trouble.
The class 47 saves the day....it was well on its way then!
Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
What's the point of having a diesel at the back if not available for banking duties?
That's a good question and all too often there is too much assistance at the rear but fortunately for me and my video, not on this occasion. Regards, John
In case duchess of sutherland breaks down and the convey needs to moved to safety to try and avoid delay
How many more time do people have to be told? The diesel is there primarily to turn the train and loco at the end of the journey. The two trips up the Lickey didn't have a diesel on the back because the pair of Class 20's that were used were retained at Worcester.
5:05 the wheel slip though
Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
5:20 another wheel slip
Thank you for watching and for taking the time to comment. Regards, John
0:40 wheel slip
Thanks for watching and for your comment. Regards, John
NS 958. Stalls on the Poe Wye. And NS958 Final Attempt on the Poe Wye. Now this is a steam engine struggling. (UA-cam).
Thanks for watching and providing your comment. Regards, John
Try again, in English next time!
Too many coaches
Thanks for watching and providing your comment. Regards, John
Behind a Duchess? What rubbish! 😡
@@anubis6864 At least it's not just me who's knowledge /opinion you question..... I bet you're a right troll on fakebook!!
@@anubis6864 so why did it slip then I can give you a lecture on rail wheel interface tractive effort and prudholm and hertizian contact stress if you want one.