I would use a solid roller if it was mine, but I built alot of solid flat tappet SBCs back in the day. One of the best solid lifter cams I ever used in smaller cube SBCs was a Lunati SP "Special Purpose" series that had 268/276@.050, 312/322 advertised, 590 intake 600 exhaust lift, 106 lobe separation. It's not for the faint of heart. Make that 302 really spin up. I built a 68 MO code 302 years ago to drag race, used a Brookshire solid roller cam, single pattern 288/288@.050, 680/680 lift, 106 lobe separation, used a lightweight forged crank, BME aluminium rods, Arias custom dome pistons, over 13-1 compression, Extremely well ported Phase 2 Bowtie heads flowing in the mid 290s, ported and extended plenum dividers in a Holley Strip Dominator, 850 Holley competition series carb, turned 9800rpm and ran 6.20s in the 8th NA in a Vega drag car. 7000 stall and 6-17 geared Dana 60 rear. That was decades ago.
I always base it off of David Vizard’s 128 formula, and make adjustments from there depending on type of use, fuel type, weight of car, transmission type, etc. For that little 302, I’d be targeting a solid roller based on a 110 LSA, grind 2-4 advance into the ICL, match the lift to the head flow numbers, and then target 170-180 psi of cylinder pressure, depending on cylinder head material- cast iron/aluminum.
Meh the 128 formula is for people still wet behind the ears and does not know any better when it comes to choosing camshafts. pump gas engines with a rpm range from 2500 to 6500 can use 108 to 115 LSA cams and the majority of folks will not notice the difference. What very little difference there is does not justify the extra cosf of a custom ground cam over the cost of a off the shelf cam that will be just as fun to drive. There is no real world on the street or track data that proves the 128 formula works better than picking a lower cost cam out of a catalog.
@@bigboreracing356 Ok, well I am certainly NOT “wet behind the ears”, but I can agree with you that most people probably may not “feel” the difference in power between different LSA camshafts on the street, BUT I was just speaking to OPTIMIZED power, reflected by the dyno.
@@leosun8469 You are correct about the dyno. But like you said,the 128 formula is not the end all of cam selection in that it does not provide the optimum cam for real world use. Back in the day my Small Block Chevy buddies used off the shelf high energy Comp Cams for daily drivers and the 280 and 292H for street racing. If money was available they used Lunati solid flat tappet cams. Those turned 7500 rpm in first and second gear. So did a Direct Connection cam with mushroom lifters in a 13 to 1 compression 340 with aluminum rods😎 Torque converter flash rpm , rear gear ratio, pinion angle and front shocks were more important than optimal cam selection. Making power was not a issue and Making excessive torque down low rarely won street races in our sandbox. Long story short what may be the optimal cam for a person that races dynos is not the optimal cam for a person that street races. There are no cam formulas out there that can compete with experience.
I've used the ARP main stud kit that's made to take a windage tray. A really good modern cam to replace the 30-30 cam is the Crower #00321 cam. It has the same sound. 242/248/114 - 0.482"/0.504". It drops in and makes more power. Isky #235D valve springs drop in, at a slightly taller installed height of 1.75", with 130 lbs seat pressure, 350 lbs per inch, that will run to 7,000 RPM with this cam. These springs will handle 0.550" lift. If a larger cam is desired, the Crower #00322 cam is 248/254/112 - 0.504"/0.528" and also works well. These are solid, flat tappet cams.
I built a few with Ultradyne solid flat tappets 302 cu in I ran a 272/282 adv 238/248 @ .050 lift .485/.503 lash is .022/.024 on a 111 Lsa installed @ 106 int c/l .
Great video! Anytime I help someone with an engine they always start with, "I want it to sound like a race car!" It's hard to talk them down in fact they rarely listen without some serious and repeated warnings. I'll ask have you ever seen anyone drive a race car to work? lol I think what most really want is a muscle car sound, plus the performance that goes with it, which is much more realistic. Most small block chevy enthusiasts are happy in the .228-.250 duration .470 - .520 lift and 110-114 LSA. Overlap 55-70. Stray much from that and lose performance and sound or lose drivability to some degree. At least in my experience. Minor adjustments for gearing, weight, convertor or clutch and it will be good to go.
Cam ramps definitely make differences. My engine just built floated valves at 6200. Builder was surprised because it’s a common build. Thing is the cam he usually used wasn’t available so he chose another similar, but not the same. The ramps were faster causing the valves to float. He changed and tried everything. Finally he increased spring pressure. Shazam! Fixed. Little changes can cause other considerations. If I had built this engine I would have been ready to junk the engine.
Honest. How about this one, I will recount. I had a 318 LA Mopar, standard 7.5 to 1 comp. It had a hyd. flat tappit cam, lifting .480" ish. About 230 degrees at .050" lift. Went ok ish. I changed over to a flat tappit solid with 238 degrees at .050' Lift on intake and about 9 more on the exhaust. The cam had the same theoretical lift, .480" when correctly lashed. Idiot me did not check the valve retainer to head clearance!!1 Ok it was 25 years ago but what at stuff up. I assumed because the hydraulic cam ran fine at that lift the solid would too. Very quickly. I smoked push rods after about 800 miles and thought it was a lubrication issue. Pulling the motor apart and finding no oiling issues. It was not until sometime later, still none the wiser; that one happened to notice a used retainer from that engine, had marks on the underside. Problem solved. The slush cam saved the valve train from damage because there was only slight interference. Not all retainers touched the head casting. The car had better power and fuel economy with the solid but due to the interference of the parts; would not rev past 4500. I just thought Mopar heads where no good! Stupid me. Cheers.
Allan, yet another well-prepared, well laid-out , educational vid. Your personal knowledge coupled with your willingness to incorporate the knowledge-base of other engine-building elites, sets your channel apart [positively] from most all others .I'm curious as to whether you have,[ or would], do a vid on late-model Gen V, L83. 5.3 L Chev motors??? Deleting all the factory crap [ DOD/AFM/ VVT etc] might be educational and entertaining to some.
Another super informative video Alan! As you described, PLAN, so many guys thumbsuck what parts they think they need and it doesn't run as they want it to, they waste time and money. The one benefit of the larger V8's and big blocks is they are slightly more forgiving, but a 302 small block with the wrong cam, heads, carburetor, manifold etc can really muck it up.
Allan, I'll watch for as long as I'm welcomed lol!! I didn't get a chance to pop by this trip down { family business}, but I do look forward to poppin in and 'watchin' you in action sometime this summer. CHEERS !
It was an objective process & I can see how it could be a useful tool. What weighs more between originality vs aftermarket & power. What heads did you use & the intake valve size? A 302 with 194in valves... your best cam is the one with 110LCA along with the Duration DV suggestion of 40-50. Why not choose a solid lifter version of Bill's cam. I totally get where he was coming from using a roller, less risk & wear issues due to todays oil chemistry vs running higher cost oils that will protect a solid flat tappet design. You can grove the lifter bores & even run an armor faced lifter to get around these oil issues... this will give you the best of both worlds & the 110LCA follows Vizards 128 formula. Now you have the best cam with the lowest machine costs, keeping his stock rockers & pushrods but I would upgrade to a minimum of a grower roller tip 1.54... maybe even an offset 1.6 intake & 1.54 exhaust, this will shift your overlap triangle to slightly favor the intake events yielding in more power. Remember if the intake manifold has zero carbon visible, there isn't an issue. Installing the cam 4 degree advanced will lower the rpm 200 rpms so your making tq sooner. For a 7000rpm, your exhaust is critical, where the high flow is vs low speed flow... a larger header can be made to work with plates inside aka reversion headers or you can offset a set of 1.3/4in. They make great reversion style by slightly lowering them via slotting the bolt holes. The 1in 5/8 are most common but at lower rpms you loose tq. Check out DV video on reversion exhaust. I'm lazy & round headers vs square exhaust ports = a missmatch... custom headers are crazy expensive so I choose to run larger headers flycut smooth with high temp sealer vs gasket. This makes the smaller exhaust port a reversion block. Tig Welding in small pc of metal acts like a one way valve. It really does work like he explains. Besides 1.3/4 fit ok if you run Allen head bolts & put the same sealant on the threads. Keeps them from backing out as easily. I Always run headers with a thick single flange vs seperate 3 PC. A 2-3in directional carb spacer is another cheap part that works.
I hope you patent that chart, best I've seen,I think Tony's cam may be the one, but I would have that cam nitrided, and use the best lifters, like Trend hardend lifters, expensive but good!!, thanks for another good one, looking forward to flowing Tony's heads, that will be interesting,!!
Amen to that Bill. The solid lifters from precision products perf. Would be a good choice as well. Ultra high quality and dead nuts on tolerance. I’m using them in my next customer build that has the same Comp cam we’re talking about.
Appreciate you including us in the process. Tony's cam looks similar to the one I suggested.... I run from the 114 lsa. Absolutely lills low end......A cam in the upper 240's in duration and a 110 would be the best of everything... I think lunati makes a voodoo in that neighborhood....
Remember the lower the lsa the sooner the camshaft runs out of steam they want it to rev high duration has a max or air doesn’t flow as well so after it’s maxed your left with lsa to move rpm up also ptv starts to become an issue with so much duration lower lsa brings more ptv issues
@@utahcountypicazospage5412 You run a 114 and i will run what ever the engine combo wants to make max power. Will be waiting with a sandwich for ya when you finally get across the finish line!! lol
Interesting "weight" chart you've created. My thoughts are it has to come down to how important it is for the engine to sound original. If it doesn't matter a smallish solid flat tappet dual pattern cam is the way to go as I don't see stock rockers being all that happy with even mild solid roller spring requirements, at least long term. If it has to sound original, the factory cam is the only option. The "Z" guys usually park together at the car shows, and a "well selected" cam's sound is going to stick out like a sore thumb.
Always consider that the advertised duration can be deceiving. Especially comparing old cams from differing manufacturers where all sorts of tappet rise figeres or even valve lift figures were/are used. Just a .005" change in lash can make a very large difference in actual seat to seat duration seen at the valve. Lash can fool people easily as it changes the entire range of lift and duration figures you will see at the valve which is the only thing the engine knows about. Think of something like(arbitary numbers here) 320* adv duration with 250*@.050" using .030" lash. Then consider that something like 305*adv with 246*@.050" but using .020" lash can actually be the same or even bigger "at the actual valve" depending on differences in the lobe ramp/rate between the 2 cams. Sometimes I think it would be great if for catalogue purposes cam companies would show the cam spec for adv duration, @50 duration and theoretical valve lift with the recommended lash already take into account. This would actually give a far clearer picture for the majority of people selecting a cam. Also @.200" figures should be more widely shown in my opinion. Nice build too 👌
Not a Chevy cam expert but thru out the '60's & '70's Chevy's factory Advertized camshaft Duration specs seemed so Long (Like 346° '69 Z28) I don't have a clue what Check height Reference was used (0.001" @ lifter, 0.006" @ valve, etc) but Deff wasn't 0.050" @ Lifter & a Realistic comparison of Chevy factory specs to modern Aftermarket cam specs makes today's Advertized Duration to 0.050" Duration ramp "Intensity" calculation Impossible to even Remotely accurately estimate the Ramps like we do with the usual Advertized 0.018" Lifter Duration to Lifter 0.050" Duration ramp "Intensity" estimate....Anyone Know what & where Check height Chevy used on Factory duration specs ??
@@tomstrum6259 same thing with old Ford cams. Monster advertised duration. Some of the stuff i have checked shows that the adv duration figures were taken at around .003" tappet rise, even on the solid lifter stuff. If you measure these same cam lobes at the now more typical .006" for hydraulic and .020" for solid you get a very different advertised duration figure! They are still long slow lobes but not alway what they look like on paper.
that cam will make good power. just one thing you need to check for on those "O" stamped rocker arms is that the slot is long enough to clear the rocker stud. you need about .060-.080 clearance between the front of the slot and the rocker stud. the factory rockers are made hardened steel, so you can use a die grinder or a Dremel to elongate the slot if you need to. the ball and the rocker wear together like cam and lifter, so you need to always keep the ball with the rocker it came out of. the best way i know how to check this is to make a "GO/NOGO" gauge out of .060, stainless steel wire and the bend one end to a 90-degree angle to fit between the rocker slot and the stud at full lift. if you have .060 you are good to go, anything smaller, then you need to grind a little more.
Great video and like the idea of having a project definition = what are you looking for with the engine and the car it will go into?? Perhaps you could come up with a short checklist that would help a builder make decisions and narrow the focus??
Camshaft selection is a booger! Do you have a chart like that for hydraulic flattappet/roller cams? Great video! You are like an engi e building encyclopedia, sir! If you lived in my part of Texas, I would clean your shop for tips and tricks! Like always, keep up the good work!
Both of you mentioned that you want original sound, then I would use the Isky repop of the Duntov 30/30 solid lifter, I just did a 327 with a crane repop of 30/30 solid lifter, 407 HP
Can not pick a cam without including info of compression ratio. Would be good info if you touch on what is a good IVC degree versus compression ratio/dynamic compression when picking a cam Awesome vids keep sharing info
One thing I have found on SBC's, is those 3 oil passageways are drilled from each end. The intersection is normally off so much that a .375" drill it will not pass through, even though they are factory drilled .437"...
Correct, most of the time anyway Alleyoop. I use a section of brake line on the end of my compressed air nozzle to blow them out when cleaning the block. AG
You might as well cheap out and use the summit cam. Close enough to original, and cheaper than the comp cam. They're probably made at the same company. The bottom cam would be my choice on a 110 lsa instead of a 112. You could always look at comps magnum series cams and match it up as close as you can . They have softer ramps, but still make power.
Good info !! ......On the typical 60's hi perf factory engines for Street/strip use, I tend to like a cam grind that peaks Torque at about 1000 rpm Below the gear shift point or traps rpm I want to use.....Of course a fairly "Loose" converter or Manual trans usually required for best performance/ Drivability ......Compared to genuine USA quality cast/ground cam + tool Steel flat tappet setup with Everything checked/measured verified + propper Available oil,....Is Roller cam/lifters absolutely Required for street/strip driven camshaft Survivability these days ??
I wonder if the gm/comp stock spec. cam were checked at.006" lift for advertised duration, how much different would it be from the Summit version? It would be interesting to see how they compare on Bills cam profiler. Especially at .200" duration. Keep up the great videos.
It's quite possible GM measured duration from clearance ramp to clearance ramp. 0.030" of valve lash is going to effectively eliminate a bunch of that advertised duration.
I know this is outside the plan for this engine but I wonder what the power difference would be by using the 292 turbo heads from the late 60's Eric Weingartner did a video a couple of days ago about these heads. Add in a dose of DV on camshaft selection and does a Gold's Garage 302 make as much power as a Traco/Penske 302? And yes the intake and carb combination can be anything legal in the old SCCA rule book.
Thanks Eric, good points, but as you can see, making power is not the only consideration. Those Penske 302's went 8,000RPM so we won't be competing with them.AG
Great topic and learned alot! But I think you need to check the addition. Looks like the last 3 columns are not included. Excel probably dropped the calcs in those columns.
Hi Alan. After chatting with you I still cannot het this engine going. I have watched your vids and have come to the conclusion that my cam is too big. I am running a 460-470 lift 110 separation. My hears are Edelbrock 5089 with a flow rate of 430. I believe I will go with a 390 lift and 115 separation for a smoother idle. If you have a cam you can recommend I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
Thank you for another great video. I asked a question about my sbc build previously and I have one more question. I have checked all my oil clearances for my sbc mains using a dial bore gauge. I found that the main journals 3, 4 and 5 have .0045 to .005 clearance. Is this too much clearance and if I proceed, would it be detrimental to the life of the motor? Thank you for your help.
Yes, I think that is a little too much. i have assembled engines with .0030"-.0035". I don't know what kind of engine you are building, but the maximum allowable "in service" specification for a SBC is .004" . Hope this helps AG
Thanks Ken, a windage tray keeps oil away from getting tangled up in the crankshaft. Rule of thumb, about 1 HP/1000RPM, depending on a other factors, oil level, viscosity etc. For a street engine, you will never notice it. AG
hard washers are the fix Great warning on the bolts is that comp cam a UDHAROLD design or a more modern profile? UD harold designs for Lunanti and Ultradyne were better, howard has the best of his profiles (all are obsolete), I sold lots of them in the 70's 80's
That is a good question Michael. There is a direct relationship between tensile strength and hardness. There is also a wide range of stainless steels as many meet the minimum requirement of chrome and nickel to qualify as stainless. Stainless steel can be anywhere from 80,000 psi to 150,000 PSI and more. For example 304 SS has a hardness of 215 on the Brinell scale. Hope this helps. AG
I'm rebuilding my Dad's 409/55 Chevy Hot rod and am very interested in designing a Cam for it that will produce Torque down low instead of at the top end where the current Cam is. I've been reading Vizard and watching your Videos but they are mostly dealing with SBC and later model BBCs. From what I've gleaned the 409 is a bit different than Std. BBC's. I have the Big Port 690 Heads and the 881 2x4 intake with 2x Carter AFB's. What other considerations do I need to account for Cams on 409? Do you do Cam Design or can you recommend someone who has knowledge of 409 Cam design? Love your Videos, I'm learning a lot from them.
Thanks for your comments Rick. I have built two similar 409's with he same heads and intake etc, but they were essentially stock restorations. i used a knock off of the original solid lifter cam. I will check with Bill Little about specking a cam for you. AG
Dual pattern for street/strip car cam tech/test has shown smaller intake duration allows more vacuum better drivability.higher duration on exhaust with proper lsa pulls the cam to wanted rpm WIN WIN m.single pattern is going to be more of a bear to drive and only make 5hp more at 6500 up
Glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humour ! Thanks Allan. ps , do you have an address in the London area you can be found at? Comin do again this week.
The issue I see with this weighted chart method is you have a very limited selection of cam choices listed. What if none of those is the best choice? I'd be more concerned with giving the engine what IT wants or requires in order to perform in the expected RPM range instead of making that a lesser concern. How much overlap will produce the performance and sound you want without making the car a turd or less fun to drive? How much overlap beyond that is wasted power, torque and drivability? Why not use the Dynomation program Bill has as part of the decision? At what tappet lift was advertised duration of the Duntov cam measured .004"? .006"?, other? That would be critical in comparing the cams. Considering roller vs flat tappet, how much spring pressure is required with the solid roller cam and how much spring pressure are you willing to have beat on the valve seats under extended use? Obviously, the valves and other valvetrain components have to be up to task. I'd certainly question the rocker arm choice with the solid roller and increased spring pressure.
That lift on the Howard’s is pointless. The heads on that 302 won’t breathe much past .490-.500 without some major work. As far as flat tappet break in, with someone as skilled as you I’d say failure rate is low. Use some Delphi lifters w that flat tappet. Great video!
Thanks John, we will be flowing the heads next week and then making a video on the final selection. We are hoping that Tony and Robert can come down for the flow bench testing. AG
Rollers do not have faster acceleration than a flat tappet until way up the ramp- then they do, a solid flat tappet can have LESS overlap unless you use an inverse flank on the roller, simple mechanics/physics nobody is going to see the rockers 1.65 ratio is relatively easy ported heads can flow more at 500 go for it but do not buy a cam based on valve size which is just a poor proxy for the flow, go with the flow for those advertised durations you need to include timing after lash use SAE method timing at the valve where is that cam doc when you need it soft ramps and big .030 clearance on Duntov cam make comparing challenging back to the drawing board
Cam1 or Cam4 either will work great. cam1 lots of midrange power a tire shredder. cam4 lots of top end endless hp.cam2/3 outdated grinds sound good won’t perform as well as cam1/4
Thanks Jane, you are correct. I screwed up. When i added columns, i didn't tell Excel to include them in the totals. Amazing that I didn't catch that. i will be correcting this in the next video. The correct numbers are 72, 75.5, 82 and 76. AG
Thanks for commenting. I was already to concede and apologize to you. Then i looked it up. Turns out i am correct, it is galley. Check out the definition of "oil galley" on Microsoft Bing. AG
I would use a solid roller if it was mine, but I built alot of solid flat tappet SBCs back in the day. One of the best solid lifter cams I ever used in smaller cube SBCs was a Lunati SP "Special Purpose" series that had 268/276@.050, 312/322 advertised, 590 intake 600 exhaust lift, 106 lobe separation. It's not for the faint of heart. Make that 302 really spin up. I built a 68 MO code 302 years ago to drag race, used a Brookshire solid roller cam, single pattern 288/288@.050, 680/680 lift, 106 lobe separation, used a lightweight forged crank, BME aluminium rods, Arias custom dome pistons, over 13-1 compression, Extremely well ported Phase 2 Bowtie heads flowing in the mid 290s, ported and extended plenum dividers in a Holley Strip Dominator, 850 Holley competition series carb, turned 9800rpm and ran 6.20s in the 8th NA in a Vega drag car. 7000 stall and 6-17 geared Dana 60 rear. That was decades ago.
Sounds like a super stock car to me!!
Wow. Like the first cam. Cheers.
@@billlittle4285 Old Modified Production car.
@@billlittle4285 Ended up as a bracket car. Been sitting in a field for decades now. Drivetrain gone.
I always base it off of David Vizard’s 128 formula, and make adjustments from there depending on type of use, fuel type, weight of car, transmission type, etc.
For that little 302, I’d be targeting a solid roller based on a 110 LSA, grind 2-4 advance into the ICL, match the lift to the head flow numbers, and then target 170-180 psi of cylinder pressure, depending on cylinder head material- cast iron/aluminum.
Thanks Leo, all good information.AG
Meh the 128 formula is for people still wet behind the ears and does not know any better when it comes to choosing camshafts.
pump gas engines with a rpm range from 2500 to 6500 can use 108 to 115 LSA cams and the majority of folks will not notice the difference.
What very little difference there is does not justify the extra cosf of a custom ground cam over the cost of a off the shelf cam that will be just as fun to drive.
There is no real world on the street or track data that proves the 128 formula works better than picking a lower cost cam out of a catalog.
@@bigboreracing356
Ok, well I am certainly NOT “wet behind the ears”, but I can agree with you that most people probably may not “feel” the difference in power between different LSA camshafts on the street, BUT I was just speaking to OPTIMIZED power, reflected by the dyno.
@@leosun8469 You are correct about the dyno.
But like you said,the 128 formula is not the end all of cam selection in that it does not provide the optimum cam for real world use.
Back in the day my Small Block Chevy buddies used off the shelf high energy Comp Cams for daily drivers and the 280 and 292H for street racing.
If money was available they used Lunati solid flat tappet cams. Those turned 7500 rpm in first and second gear.
So did a Direct Connection cam with mushroom lifters in a 13 to 1 compression 340 with aluminum rods😎
Torque converter flash rpm , rear gear ratio, pinion angle and front shocks were more important than optimal cam selection.
Making power was not a issue and
Making excessive torque down low rarely won street races in our sandbox.
Long story short what may be the optimal cam for a person that races dynos is not the optimal cam for a person that street races.
There are no cam formulas out there that can compete with experience.
That's what I do also
I've used the ARP main stud kit that's made to take a windage tray. A really good modern cam to replace the 30-30 cam is the Crower #00321 cam. It has the same sound. 242/248/114 - 0.482"/0.504". It drops in and makes more power. Isky #235D valve springs drop in, at a slightly taller installed height of 1.75", with 130 lbs seat pressure, 350 lbs per inch, that will run to 7,000 RPM with this cam. These springs will handle 0.550" lift. If a larger cam is desired, the Crower #00322 cam is 248/254/112 - 0.504"/0.528" and also works well. These are solid, flat tappet cams.
Thanks for the great input Brandon.AG
I built a few with Ultradyne solid flat tappets 302 cu in I ran a 272/282 adv 238/248 @ .050 lift .485/.503 lash is .022/.024 on a 111 Lsa installed @ 106 int c/l .
Those are good spec's Larry, thanks for the input. AG
Great video! Anytime I help someone with an engine they always start with, "I want it to sound like a race car!"
It's hard to talk them down in fact they rarely listen without some serious and repeated warnings. I'll ask have you ever seen anyone drive a race car to work? lol
I think what most really want is a muscle car sound, plus the performance that goes with it, which is much more realistic.
Most small block chevy enthusiasts are happy in the .228-.250 duration .470 - .520 lift and 110-114 LSA. Overlap 55-70. Stray much from that and lose performance and sound or lose drivability to some degree. At least in my experience. Minor adjustments for gearing, weight, convertor or clutch and it will be good to go.
Thanks Jimmy, all good points and we are aligned on the range of numbers that you selected. AG
The camshaft is the brain 🧠 of the engine.
Cam ramps definitely make differences. My engine just built floated valves at 6200. Builder was surprised because it’s a common build. Thing is the cam he usually used wasn’t available so he chose another similar, but not the same. The ramps were faster causing the valves to float. He changed and tried everything. Finally he increased spring pressure. Shazam! Fixed. Little changes can cause other considerations. If I had built this engine I would have been ready to junk the engine.
Valve springs are the governor of the engine
Honest. How about this one, I will recount. I had a 318 LA Mopar, standard 7.5 to 1 comp. It had a hyd. flat tappit cam, lifting .480" ish. About 230 degrees at .050" lift. Went ok ish. I changed over to a flat tappit solid with 238 degrees at .050' Lift on intake and about 9 more on the exhaust. The cam had the same theoretical lift, .480" when correctly lashed. Idiot me did not check the valve retainer to head clearance!!1 Ok it was 25 years ago but what at stuff up. I assumed because the hydraulic cam ran fine at that lift the solid would too. Very quickly. I smoked push rods after about 800 miles and thought it was a lubrication issue. Pulling the motor apart and finding no oiling issues. It was not until sometime later, still none the wiser; that one happened to notice a used retainer from that engine, had marks on the underside. Problem solved. The slush cam saved the valve train from damage because there was only slight interference. Not all retainers touched the head casting. The car had better power and fuel economy with the solid but due to the interference of the parts; would not rev past 4500. I just thought Mopar heads where no good! Stupid me. Cheers.
😂. Probably all of us have those stupid “I did that” story.
@@garyhosier4765 next time i'll keep it to my self..
@@MsKatjie wasn’t trying to offend you. I was right along with you. Sorry
Allan, yet another well-prepared, well laid-out , educational vid. Your personal knowledge coupled with your willingness to incorporate the knowledge-base of other engine-building elites, sets your channel apart [positively] from most all others .I'm curious as to whether you have,[ or would], do a vid on late-model Gen V, L83. 5.3 L Chev motors??? Deleting all the factory crap [ DOD/AFM/ VVT etc] might be educational and entertaining to some.
Thanks Wayne, i would love to but I have no expertise in that area. I will stick to my knitting for now anyway. AG
Just thinking, maybe I can get Bill Little to do that. AG
Another super informative video Alan!
As you described, PLAN, so many guys thumbsuck what parts they think they need and it doesn't run as they want it to, they waste time and money.
The one benefit of the larger V8's and big blocks is they are slightly more forgiving, but a 302 small block with the wrong cam, heads, carburetor, manifold etc can really muck it up.
Thanks Dean, all good points. AG
Allan, I'll watch for as long as I'm welcomed lol!! I didn't get a chance to pop by this trip down { family business}, but I do look forward to poppin in and 'watchin' you in action sometime this summer. CHEERS !
Thanks Wayne, I will look forward to see you next time. AG
I have a 302ci in my shop, this video is a wealth of knowledge, I'll make a plan, thank you
thanks for your comment Thomas. AG
It was an objective process & I can see how it could be a useful tool. What weighs more between originality vs aftermarket & power. What heads did you use & the intake valve size? A 302 with 194in valves... your best cam is the one with 110LCA along with the Duration DV suggestion of 40-50. Why not choose a solid lifter version of Bill's cam. I totally get where he was coming from using a roller, less risk & wear issues due to todays oil chemistry vs running higher cost oils that will protect a solid flat tappet design. You can grove the lifter bores & even run an armor faced lifter to get around these oil issues... this will give you the best of both worlds & the 110LCA follows Vizards 128 formula. Now you have the best cam with the lowest machine costs, keeping his stock rockers & pushrods but I would upgrade to a minimum of a grower roller tip 1.54... maybe even an offset 1.6 intake & 1.54 exhaust, this will shift your overlap triangle to slightly favor the intake events yielding in more power. Remember if the intake manifold has zero carbon visible, there isn't an issue. Installing the cam 4 degree advanced will lower the rpm 200 rpms so your making tq sooner. For a 7000rpm, your exhaust is critical, where the high flow is vs low speed flow... a larger header can be made to work with plates inside aka reversion headers or you can offset a set of 1.3/4in. They make great reversion style by slightly lowering them via slotting the bolt holes. The 1in 5/8 are most common but at lower rpms you loose tq. Check out DV video on reversion exhaust. I'm lazy & round headers vs square exhaust ports = a missmatch... custom headers are crazy expensive so I choose to run larger headers flycut smooth with high temp sealer vs gasket. This makes the smaller exhaust port a reversion block. Tig Welding in small pc of metal acts like a one way valve. It really does work like he explains. Besides 1.3/4 fit ok if you run Allen head bolts & put the same sealant on the threads. Keeps them from backing out as easily. I Always run headers with a thick single flange vs seperate 3 PC. A 2-3in directional carb spacer is another cheap part that works.
Thanks Darrin for taking the time to provide so much useful information. We will be flowing the heads next week. AG
I hope you patent that chart, best I've seen,I think Tony's cam may be the one, but I would have that cam nitrided, and use the best lifters, like Trend hardend lifters, expensive but good!!, thanks for another good one, looking forward to flowing Tony's heads, that will be interesting,!!
Thanks Bill, the cam will come from you whatever it is. AG
We used that chart as part of bidder selection in business
Sounds like good advice. Have a good one.
So did I, I am drawing on my corporate experience. AG
Amen to that Bill. The solid lifters from precision products perf. Would be a good choice as well. Ultra high quality and dead nuts on tolerance. I’m using them in my next customer build that has the same Comp cam we’re talking about.
Appreciate you including us in the process. Tony's cam looks similar to the one I suggested.... I run from the 114 lsa. Absolutely lills low end......A cam in the upper 240's in duration and a 110 would be the best of everything... I think lunati makes a voodoo in that neighborhood....
Remember the lower the lsa the sooner the camshaft runs out of steam they want it to rev high duration has a max or air doesn’t flow as well so after it’s maxed your left with lsa to move rpm up also ptv starts to become an issue with so much duration lower lsa brings more ptv issues
@@utahcountypicazospage5412 You run a 114 and i will run what ever the engine combo wants to make max power. Will be waiting with a sandwich for ya when you finally get across the finish line!! lol
Interesting "weight" chart you've created. My thoughts are it has to come down to how important it is for the engine to sound original. If it doesn't matter a smallish solid flat tappet dual pattern cam is the way to go as I don't see stock rockers being all that happy with even mild solid roller spring requirements, at least long term.
If it has to sound original, the factory cam is the only option. The "Z" guys usually park together at the car shows, and a "well selected" cam's sound is going to stick out like a sore thumb.
Thanks Yarrda. AG
Always consider that the advertised duration can be deceiving. Especially comparing old cams from differing manufacturers where all sorts of tappet rise figeres or even valve lift figures were/are used.
Just a .005" change in lash can make a very large difference in actual seat to seat duration seen at the valve.
Lash can fool people easily as it changes the entire range of lift and duration figures you will see at the valve which is the only thing the engine knows about.
Think of something like(arbitary numbers here) 320* adv duration with 250*@.050" using .030" lash. Then consider that something like 305*adv with 246*@.050" but using .020" lash can actually be the same or even bigger "at the actual valve" depending on differences in the lobe ramp/rate between the 2 cams.
Sometimes I think it would be great if for catalogue purposes cam companies would show the cam spec for adv duration, @50 duration and theoretical valve lift with the recommended lash already take into account. This would actually give a far clearer picture for the majority of people selecting a cam. Also @.200" figures should be more widely shown in my opinion.
Nice build too 👌
Not a Chevy cam expert but thru out the '60's & '70's Chevy's factory Advertized camshaft Duration specs seemed so Long (Like 346° '69 Z28) I don't have a clue what Check height Reference was used (0.001" @ lifter, 0.006" @ valve, etc) but Deff wasn't 0.050" @ Lifter & a Realistic comparison of Chevy factory specs to modern Aftermarket cam specs makes today's Advertized Duration to 0.050" Duration ramp "Intensity" calculation Impossible to even Remotely accurately estimate the Ramps like we do with the usual Advertized 0.018" Lifter Duration to Lifter 0.050" Duration ramp "Intensity" estimate....Anyone Know what & where Check height Chevy used on Factory duration specs ??
@@tomstrum6259 same thing with old Ford cams. Monster advertised duration. Some of the stuff i have checked shows that the adv duration figures were taken at around .003" tappet rise, even on the solid lifter stuff. If you measure these same cam lobes at the now more typical .006" for hydraulic and .020" for solid you get a very different advertised duration figure! They are still long slow lobes but not alway what they look like on paper.
Thanks Craig, good thinking and lots of good information. AG
Thanks Tom.AG
Nice tip of the day. Thankyou.
Thanks you Ms. AG
you can drill plugs .040 ish to blead foam and oil the timing chain- great tips
Thanks for the tip Jm. AG
that cam will make good power. just one thing you need to check for on those "O" stamped rocker arms is that the slot is long enough to clear the rocker stud. you need about .060-.080 clearance between the front of the slot and the rocker stud. the factory rockers are made hardened steel, so you can use a die grinder or a Dremel to elongate the slot if you need to. the ball and the rocker wear together like cam and lifter, so you need to always keep the ball with the rocker it came out of. the best way i know how to check this is to make a "GO/NOGO" gauge out of .060, stainless steel wire and the bend one end to a 90-degree angle to fit between the rocker slot and the stud at full lift. if you have .060 you are good to go, anything smaller, then you need to grind a little more.
Really good info Shadvan. Thanks for contributing. AG
Great video and like the idea of having a project definition = what are you looking for with the engine and the car it will go into?? Perhaps you could come up with a short checklist that would help a builder make decisions and narrow the focus??
Thanks for the suggestion 4 speed. I will work on it.AG
Camshaft selection is a booger! Do you have a chart like that for hydraulic flattappet/roller cams? Great video! You are like an engi e building encyclopedia, sir! If you lived in my part of Texas, I would clean your shop for tips and tricks! Like always, keep up the good work!
awesome compliment, thanks. AG
Both of you mentioned that you want original sound, then I would use the Isky repop of the Duntov 30/30 solid lifter, I just did a 327 with a crane repop of 30/30 solid lifter, 407 HP
Thanks Ken, when I was a teenager, a 327 was the ultimate engine and it is still a sentimental favorite. 407 is a good number. AG
Can not pick a cam without including info of compression ratio.
Would be good info if you touch on what is a good IVC degree versus compression ratio/dynamic compression when picking a cam
Awesome vids keep sharing info
That's hogwash
Thanks for the comment John. We are including all of those points in our planning.AG
One thing I have found on SBC's, is those 3 oil passageways are drilled from each end. The intersection is normally off so much that a .375" drill it will not pass through, even though they are factory drilled .437"...
Correct, most of the time anyway Alleyoop. I use a section of brake line on the end of my compressed air nozzle to blow them out when cleaning the block. AG
Cool thanks for the info!
Thanks for the comment Bill.AG
You might as well cheap out and use the summit cam. Close enough to original, and cheaper than the comp cam. They're probably made at the same company. The bottom cam would be my choice on a 110 lsa instead of a 112.
You could always look at comps magnum series cams and match it up as close as you can . They have softer ramps, but still make power.
Thanks for the input Nitro, all good points. AG
Good info !! ......On the typical 60's hi perf factory engines for Street/strip use, I tend to like a cam grind that peaks Torque at about 1000 rpm Below the gear shift point or traps rpm I want to use.....Of course a fairly "Loose" converter or Manual trans usually required for best performance/ Drivability ......Compared to genuine USA quality cast/ground cam + tool Steel flat tappet setup with Everything checked/measured verified + propper Available oil,....Is Roller cam/lifters absolutely Required for street/strip driven camshaft Survivability these days ??
Thanks for your input Tom. AG
Was the 302 block sonic checked? Looks like it has a good bit of core shift. Good video
Thanks for the question. This 302 was only bored .030" Atchison Machine did not see the need to sonic test it. AG
I wonder if the gm/comp stock spec. cam were checked at.006" lift for advertised duration, how much different would it be from the Summit version? It would be interesting to see how they compare on Bills cam profiler. Especially at .200" duration. Keep up the great videos.
It's quite possible GM measured duration from clearance ramp to clearance ramp. 0.030" of valve lash is going to effectively eliminate a bunch of that advertised duration.
correct, thanks Yarrda. AG
I know this is outside the plan for this engine but I wonder what the power difference would be by using the 292 turbo heads from the late 60's Eric Weingartner did a video a couple of days ago about these heads. Add in a dose of DV on camshaft selection and does a Gold's Garage 302 make as much power as a Traco/Penske 302? And yes the intake and carb combination can be anything legal in the old SCCA rule book.
Thanks Eric, good points, but as you can see, making power is not the only consideration. Those Penske 302's went 8,000RPM so we won't be competing with them.AG
I would run around at Least 255° @ .050 duration cam specs for strong 7000 rpm engine performance.....
Thanks Tom. AG
Great topic and learned alot! But I think you need to check the addition. Looks like the last 3 columns are not included. Excel probably dropped the calcs in those columns.
OOPS! you are correct Rick. I am embarrassed, thanks for noticing that. I will have to fix this on a follow up. AG
The corrected numbers are 72, 75.5, 82, 76. AG
Hi Alan. After chatting with you I still cannot het this engine going. I have watched your vids and have come to the conclusion that my cam is too big. I am running a 460-470 lift 110 separation. My hears are Edelbrock 5089 with a flow rate of 430. I believe I will go with a 390 lift and 115 separation for a smoother idle. If you have a cam you can recommend I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
Thanks John, sorry, i don't recall all the details of the call but 460-470 lift is not the problem. What is the duration @.050" ? AG
Thank you for another great video. I asked a question about my sbc build previously and I have one more question. I have checked all my oil clearances for my sbc mains using a dial bore gauge. I found that the main journals 3, 4 and 5 have .0045 to .005 clearance. Is this too much clearance and if I proceed, would it be detrimental to the life of the motor? Thank you for your help.
Yes, I think that is a little too much. i have assembled engines with .0030"-.0035". I don't know what kind of engine you are building, but the maximum allowable "in service" specification for a SBC is .004" . Hope this helps AG
Thank you very much for the advice. What are your thoughts on a sbc 400 that will never see more than 5800 rpm - is a windage tray necessary?
Thanks Ken, a windage tray keeps oil away from getting tangled up in the crankshaft. Rule of thumb, about 1 HP/1000RPM, depending on a other factors, oil level, viscosity etc. For a street engine, you will never notice it. AG
hard washers are the fix Great warning on the bolts is that comp cam a UDHAROLD design or a more modern profile? UD harold designs for Lunanti and Ultradyne were better, howard has the best of his profiles (all are obsolete), I sold lots of them in the 70's 80's
Thanks for your comments Jm. AG
To use stock O rockers better keep lift below .500
Or file the slot out further..
That's the plan, thanks for the comment.AG
I know this was a cam video but I do have a question on bolts, what hardness are stainless bolts
That is a good question Michael. There is a direct relationship between tensile strength and hardness. There is also a wide range of stainless steels as many meet the minimum requirement of chrome and nickel to qualify as stainless. Stainless steel can be anywhere from 80,000 psi to 150,000 PSI and more. For example 304 SS has a hardness of 215 on the Brinell scale. Hope this helps. AG
I think those studs are going to change the bearing size on those main bearings.
Thanks Eric, that is a good point. Your comment inspired me to make a video on this subject soon. Watch for it. AG
I'm rebuilding my Dad's 409/55 Chevy Hot rod and am very interested in designing a Cam for it that will produce Torque down low instead of at the top end where the current Cam is. I've been reading Vizard and watching your Videos but they are mostly dealing with SBC and later model BBCs. From what I've gleaned the 409 is a bit different than Std. BBC's. I have the Big Port 690 Heads and the 881 2x4 intake with 2x Carter AFB's. What other considerations do I need to account for Cams on 409? Do you do Cam Design or can you recommend someone who has knowledge of 409 Cam design? Love your Videos, I'm learning a lot from them.
Thanks for your comments Rick. I have built two similar 409's with he same heads and intake etc, but they were essentially stock restorations. i used a knock off of the original solid lifter cam. I will check with Bill Little about specking a cam for you. AG
Hello Rick
Bill can design and supply a camshaft for your application. He is in London Ontario, Belmont Automotive.
519-868-9010. Gov him a call. AG
Spelling, Give Bill a call. AG
@@goldsgarage8236 Thank you very much, I'll give him a call.
Whichever cam duration you choose pick one with the most lift.
Thanks for the comment, lift helps everywhere, up to a point. AG
Pay attention to what he says here @3:20
Actually, pay attention to all of this. He knows.
Nice compliment, thanks so much. AG
Smart man that !!
Thanks for watching and commenting Wayne. AG
Dual pattern for street/strip car cam tech/test has shown smaller intake duration allows more vacuum better drivability.higher duration on exhaust with proper lsa pulls the cam to wanted rpm WIN WIN m.single pattern is going to be more of a bear to drive and only make 5hp more at 6500 up
Thanks for your input as always Utah.AG
Glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humour ! Thanks Allan. ps , do you have an address in the London area you can be found at? Comin do again this week.
Thanks Wayne, 500 Teeple Terrace London.
Any cam will work with 12psi pumping in 💪🏻
Good point, but some will work better than others. AG
The issue I see with this weighted chart method is you have a very limited selection of cam choices listed. What if none of those is the best choice?
I'd be more concerned with giving the engine what IT wants or requires in order to perform in the expected RPM range instead of making that a lesser concern.
How much overlap will produce the performance and sound you want without making the car a turd or less fun to drive? How much overlap beyond that is wasted power, torque and drivability?
Why not use the Dynomation program Bill has as part of the decision?
At what tappet lift was advertised duration of the Duntov cam measured .004"? .006"?, other? That would be critical in comparing the cams.
Considering roller vs flat tappet, how much spring pressure is required with the solid roller cam and how much spring pressure are you willing to have beat on the valve seats under extended use? Obviously, the valves and other valvetrain components have to be up to task. I'd certainly question the rocker arm choice with the solid roller and increased spring pressure.
Thanks for your comments Anond. AG
That lift on the Howard’s is pointless. The heads on that 302 won’t breathe much past .490-.500 without some major work. As far as flat tappet break in, with someone as skilled as you I’d say failure rate is low. Use some Delphi lifters w that flat tappet. Great video!
Thanks John, we will be flowing the heads next week and then making a video on the final selection. We are hoping that Tony and Robert can come down for the flow bench testing. AG
Rollers do not have faster acceleration than a flat tappet until way up the ramp- then they do, a solid flat tappet can have LESS overlap unless you use an inverse flank on the roller, simple mechanics/physics nobody is going to see the rockers 1.65 ratio is relatively easy
ported heads can flow more at 500 go for it but do not buy a cam based on valve size which is just a poor proxy for the flow, go with the flow
for those advertised durations you need to include timing after lash use SAE method timing at the valve
where is that cam doc when you need it soft ramps and big .030 clearance on Duntov cam make comparing challenging
back to the drawing board
Lots of good information, thanks Jm.AG
Cam1 or Cam4 either will work great. cam1 lots of midrange power a tire shredder. cam4 lots of top end endless hp.cam2/3 outdated grinds sound good won’t perform as well as cam1/4
Thanks for the comments Utah. Good point. AG
You’re concerned about sound? Do you paint your fingernails too? 😂
Those lobe separations are all too wide.
Your addition doesn't add up correctly
Thanks Jane, you are correct. I screwed up. When i added columns, i didn't tell Excel to include them in the totals. Amazing that I didn't catch that. i will be correcting this in the next video. The correct numbers are 72, 75.5, 82 and 76. AG
Oil galley? No. Gallery.
Thanks for commenting. I was already to concede and apologize to you. Then i looked it up. Turns out i am correct, it is galley. Check out the definition of "oil galley" on Microsoft Bing. AG
12-673-4 for the win! You’re going to love it….
Thanks Robert, that is Tony's pick too.AG