Rebutting Tom Nelson from Denton Bible Church on the History of Pentecostalism
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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2024
- This is a message from a pastor of a large church that he gave in 1999. Despite the fact that he has a master's degree from a reputable seminary he repeatedly got things wrong in his history lesson, and many of the things he got right he only presented one side of the story. This shows you how even educated and respected ministers of God's Word can be driven by religious prejudice rather than an objective quest for the truth.
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I'm Rod Saunders, founder of Jew and Greek. I’m a musician, web developer, and a student of philosophy and economics. I recently published my first book on Amazon entitled Defending the Faith: Word of Faith Apologetics. It’s a response to the numerous charges against and misrepresentations of the Word of Faith movement and theology. I also have a CD of original music on CD Baby entitled Gates of Pearl. “Jew and Greek” is a good name because the two civilizations that influenced Western civilization the most were those of the Judeo-Christian and Greek worlds. From the Jews we received our values and a monotheistic theology, and from the Greeks we got philosophy which brought us science, sports, the arts, democracy, and economics. As a result I discuss all of the above in this blog and in my videos.
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Paul spoke in tongues more then all of us. His words not mine.
"I'd rather walk slowly and smell the roses than fly around the world where there's nothing wonderful to smell."
I can fly? Apply that wordplay and logic to Paul's statement and comparison.
Isaiah Hines, Perhaps we should agree to disagree. I don’t know how you could misunderstand what I said. Even so, there are some assumptions I would like to address, First, I am not a King James only person and I know the limitations of the old English translations. I read different versions. More modern versions I have read include, but are not limited to, ESV, and HCSB. Just because I quoted the King James does not mean I believe the King James is the only accurate version of the bible, In fact, the opposite is true. I have a Strong’s Concordance, and I know how to look up the original Hebrew and Greek words. I know how to get the meaning of those words. If I need to learn the entire Greek language in order to understand the New Testament, then what is the point of even translating the bible at all? Even though I am not a Greek Scholar I can comprehend what the overall text is saying.
Second, when I said a theme of this section of first Corinthians is addressing gifts, I was not implying that it was the main theme or the only theme. I said a theme meaning more than one. You seem to imply that I was only referring to chapter 13. When I say section I am referring to Chapters 12, 13, and 14, not one chapter. These chapters relate to one another and a thought from the previous chapters carries over. Paul changes the subject in Chapter 12 verse 1, “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed.” -ESV. Then he starts to address spiritual gifts. Paul talks about the importance of love in chapter 13. Then in chapter 14 he makes conclusions while still addressing spiritual gifts and love.
1Cor 12:1 starts off addressing different types of gifts. Chapter 12 verse 10 references the gift of tongues. “to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.” -ESV It is evident that Paul is talking about manifestations of the spirit and not just speaking a language that he has learned over time because he lumps tongues and interpretation of tongues in with working of miracles and prophecy. This is within the same verse! Just because I believe that does not mean I have the wrong Hermeneutic.
Paul then proceeds to discuss one body with many members and he outlines that everyone does not have the gift of miracles, The gift of healing, or that everyone does not have the gift of tongues. He is talking about the operation of those gifts within the body of believers. Then in chapter 13 he goes on to talk about love. It is obvious that he is saying that Love is more important than spiritual gifts.
In chapter 14 he continues the thought. 1 Cor14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. -ESV Notice what he says in verse 2 “For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.” -ESV. He is still speaking about the gift of tongues and manifestations of the Spirit. 1Co 14:12 “So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. -ESV. Notice verse 13, “Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret.” Paul is still referencing the gift of tongues. Why would you pray to interpret a language you already know? Verse 14 talks about praying in tongues, For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. Why would his mind be unfruitful if he knew what he was saying? Now in verse 18 Paul says “I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.” It is totally logical to conclude that Paul is still referencing the gift of tongues and not languages he has studied in his lifetime. This is the context of my original comment. Just because you disagree with me does not mean I am unlearned or have the wrong hermeneutic as you claim, and I don’t need to have a total command of the entire Greek language in order to get what Paul is trying to convey here.
Ultimately, Paul is talking about the operation of these gifts during an orderly worship service, at least this seems to be his conclusion from verse 26 down to 40. Notice the last two verses.
1Co 14:39 So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 1Co 14:40 But all things should be done decently and in order.
I don’t agree with everything that is taught in the Pentecostal movement or the Charismatic movement. Has there been abuse? Yes, most likely there has been some abuse. But to conclude that tongues have ceased by taking a scripture out of context is not right either. Have healings ceased too? Have miracles ceased? You may not believe that those things exist in this day and age, but I have witnessed them with my own eyes, and I personally know the people involved with the events. Believing in those things today does not mean I am taking the bible out of context or applying the wrong hermeneutics. However, I do understand the frustration associated with believers that would fake any of these events. It is a source of frustration with me as well. Ultimately, manifestations of the spirit can’t be done by personal will like a switch that is turned on and off, but that does not mean they don’t happen today.
This is just ’damage control’. There’s a reason this stuff cropped up to derail what God did with the reformation. “Many signs and wonders will accompany the coming of the man of lawlessness”
The Reformation was the beginning of God restoring what was lost from the apostolic era. The Pentecostal movement was just one of many components of that ongoing restoration process. ua-cam.com/video/TvdVUpqWz2I/v-deo.html
@@JewandGreek Hardly. Review the accompanying verse again. I have seen so little truth and so much doctrinal error while visiting the local pentacostal church. The signs and wonders accompany false teaching so people will give themselves over to this deceitful spirit. Sad day.
Saying pentacostalism is a furtherance of God's work after the reformation is the equivalent of saying the beginnings of the Roman catholic system under constantine was God's evolution of the church, when history and the born fruit has shown us the devil was permitted to usurp what God had done in establishing His Church.
In any case I'm not going to doubt your salvation over this, so God bless you brother, I don't think I'm going to change your mind as experiences are very difficult to deny.
Thank you brother for this message. I'm 59 years old and grew up in an Assembly of God church with Bible believing; tongue speaking parents that taught my brother, sister and myself the power of prayer and showed us how seeking the Lord was to be the first priority in our lives. This sowing into my life at an early age is why after many years of living for myself I've become a modern day prodigal son. When moving back in to the farm house with my sister 7 years ago I found many Kenyon books and Hagin VCR tapes in my parents bookcase. But more precious to me than anything is the 20 gallon storage container with many Bible's worn falling apart with notes written in them from sermons to claims of scripture over me and my siblings. My parents were believers in the WOF movement that you are speaking about in this video and I am thankful they believed. Thank you for this video and God bless you my brother! Sincerely your brother in Christ; Kent Arnold.
Thanks for the kind words, Kent. As you can imagine I get plenty of the other. LOL!
The first occurrence of speaking in tongues occurred on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-4. The apostles went out and shared the gospel with the crowds, speaking to them in their own languages: 'We hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!' (Acts 2:11). The Greek word translated tongues literally means 'languages.' Therefore, the gift of tongues is speaking in a language a person does not know in order to minister to someone who does speak that language. In 1 Corinthians chapters 12'14, Paul discusses miraculous gifts, saying, 'Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?' (1 Corinthians 14:6). According to the apostle Paul, and in agreement with the tongues described in Acts, speaking in tongues is valuable to the one hearing God's message in his or her own language, but it is useless to everyone else unless it is interpreted/translated.
A person with the gift of interpreting tongues (1 Corinthians 12:30) could understand what a tongues-speaker was saying even though he did not know the language that was being spoken. The tongues interpreter would then communicate the message of the tongues speaker to everyone else, so all could understand. 'For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says' (1 Corinthians 14:13). Paul's conclusion regarding tongues that were not interpreted is powerful: 'But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue' (1 Corinthians 14:19).
Is the gift of tongues for today? First Corinthians 13:8 mentions the gift of tongues ceasing, although it connects the ceasing with the arrival of the 'perfect' in 1 Corinthians 13:10. Some point to a difference in the tense of the Greek verbs referring to prophecy and knowledge 'ceasing' and that of tongues 'being ceased' as evidence for tongues ceasing before the arrival of the 'perfect.' While possible, this is not explicitly clear from the text. Some also point to passages such as Isaiah 28:11 and Joel 2:28-29 as evidence that speaking in tongues was a sign of God's oncoming judgment. First Corinthians 14:22 describes tongues as a 'sign to unbelievers.' According to this argument, the gift of tongues was a warning to the Jews that God was going to judge Israel for rejecting Jesus Christ as Messiah. Therefore, when God did in fact judge Israel (with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70), the gift of tongues would no longer serve its intended purpose. While this view is possible, the primary purpose of tongues being fulfilled does not necessarily demand its cessation. Scripture does not conclusively assert that the gift of speaking in tongues has ceased.
At the same time, if the gift of speaking in tongues were active in the church today, it would be performed in agreement with Scripture. It would be a real and intelligible language (1 Corinthians 14:10). It would be for the purpose of communicating God's Word with a person of another language (Acts 2:6-12). It would be in agreement with the command God gave through the apostle Paul, 'If anyone speaks in a tongue, two'or at the most three'should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God' (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). It would also be in accordance with 1 Corinthians 14:33, 'For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.'
God most definitely can give a person the gift of speaking in tongues to enable him or her to communicate with a person who speaks another language. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in the dispersion of the spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 12:11). Just imagine how much more productive missionaries could be if they did not have to go to language school, and were instantly able to speak to people in their own language. However, God does not seem to be doing this. Tongues does not seem to occur today in the manner it did in the New Testament, despite the fact that it would be immensely useful. The vast majority of believers who claim to practice the gift of speaking in tongues do not do so in agreement with the Scriptures mentioned above. These facts lead to the conclusion that the gift of tongues has ceased or is at least a rarity in God's plan for the church today
You're smart brother! Knowledge and truth.
Isaiah Hines Yes, the disciples were declaring the wonders of God on the day of Pentecost; however, there is no place in scripture that the gift of tongues was used for evangelism. On the day of Pentecost, while the crowds were marveling that they heard the wonders of God in their own tongues; Peter stood up and addressed the crowd in their common language and preached the Gospel of Jesus. Tongues was never used as a replacement for language study in the Bible.
1 Corinthians 14:2 says,
“For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH HIM; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.”
Here tongues is NOT a human language. It is also a language used exclusively for speaking to God, not men. Is this different from the tongues described in Acts 2:6-10? Yes, it is slightly different; but, also much the same. Luke tells us the unifying factor in both the speaking of known languages and of speaking tongues that no man understands in Acts 2:4 when he says, “they... began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” The giving of utterance by the Holy Spirit is the essence of speaking in tongues. The language spoken is irrelevant. The fact that God sovereignly speaks directly through human flesh is the miracle of tongues!
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:18-19:
“I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.”
Paul lets us know here that the venue for speaking in tongues is clearly not in a church service. That being the case, where does Paul “speak with tongues more than...all:”? He obviously practiced the phenomenon more frequently than those to whom he wrote. Also it is obvious that tongues was a significant part of this apostle’s life; so in its appropriate venue it held a place of importance. From the scriptures, can you tell what that venue might be?
As for the cessation of tongues; you spoke well when you said you were lead to a conclusion. Jesus warned His disciples, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” (Matthew 16:6). In verse 12 of that chapter, it is revealed that leaven is doctrine. When you form a doctrine by drawing conclusions about the scriptures; rather than by reading what the scriptures actually SAY, you leaven the bread of the Word of God. There is no teaching that tongues have already ceased in the scriptures. That teaching is a mere human opinion; NOT a declaration of scripture!
There are 2 types of tongues. 1. For the congregation. 2 for one's own private prayer time that builds up your spirit. I have had extreme breakthrough while regularly speaking in tongues during my private prayer time over the years. I have been given accurate words of knowledge for others during this prayer time. I have been ministered to by the Holy Spirit during this prayer time w supernatural evidence. Speaking in tongues is very real and very legitimate and provides the Christian w much support in living the Christian life in a holy and powerful way. I pray you come to know it personally.
Aimee Semple McPherson was slandered in the press and cessationists like to run with the slander version.
Hard to finish this video when scriptures are taken out of context 🤦🏽♂️
What Scriptures were taken out of context?
@@JewandGreek I’d actually back up and point out that you gave 2 verses that you believed in but then didn’t in any way expound on what that verse had to do with the situation..or at least explain how you interpret the verse. I don’t know any Christian who doesn’t believe in Psalm 34:19..it’s a verse in the Bible so hopefully Christians believe in it. The issue isn’t your or anyone believe in it but how you are attributing that verse to your life. Not to mention it’s a psalm. But just in that verse alone if you read the entire psalm the focus isn’t on the deliverance but the one who delivers (The Lord). To use that verse to propagate that we as Christians are somehow entitled to deliverance is missing the point. The point is it is not US or any other god from which our help comes from but it IS the true and living God our Father. I am more than a conqueror in Romans 8 is often taken out of context too. Why would you defend Word of Faith by using Romans 8..look at the 3 main sections of that chapter. Look at WHAT we are conquering or better yet..what Christ has conquered on our behalf. All in all Christ has allowed us to conquer sin and death and there is nothing that will separate us from God because of the blood of Christ. This isn’t meant to be used as some sort of good fortune for us to be reminded that we can overcome our obstacles in life. If that’s what we take away from it we miss the beauty of what Christ did for us. Both of these verses are God centered not man centered..when this Romans verse is used out of context the emphasis is normally on “We”..but when it’s used in Context the emphasis is on “In Christ”.
@@SundayVibesmusic So it's more like just one verse, and you disagree with my application. Whatever.
@@JewandGreek bro..there were too many things wrong with this video to comment on all of them..I’m surprised I even attempted..just no..context context context. We don’t get to assume interpretations..and if your interpretation is not that of the early church and can be verified through the countless documents we have in church history then I suppose the issue lies with you my friend
Wrong good sir on your first point. Although I agree with not ALL who are considered “Pentecostal “ make this “experience “ a requirement, the UPCI is NOT the only sect that does. The PAW organization also requires this as well as many other independent churches that broke off of the UPCI and assembly’s of God. When I came to Christ, it was at an apostolic church in the PAW and this was one of the concepts that they mostly emphasized.
My bad. I should have said "to my knowledge" the UPC is the only one. Thanks for the correction. The point I was making still stands, however. The "required" doctrine isn't mainstream in the Pentecostal world.
If this is a sermon from 1999, the preacher may have gotten his “facts” from a book. I wonder what anti-charismatic books were published a little before then??
I think he got a lot of his info from his seminary professors back in the '70s and '80s. Ignoramuses .... the whole bunch.
@@JewandGreek There are echoes of this misinformation from Justin Peters, Doreen Virtue, etc.
The concept of “belief in modern healings = word of faith movement”.
I suppose when you attack the dead, you get no challenge.
Except for Able:
[24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
To Jesus, the mediator - Through whom they had been perfected.
And to the blood of sprinkling - To all the virtue of his precious blood shed for you, whereby ye are sprinkled from an evil conscience. This blood of sprinkling was the foundation of our Lord's mediatorial office. Here the gradation is at the highest point.
Which speaketh better things than that of Abel - Which cried for vengeance.
John Westley
Im no longer pentecostal. but i am a continuationist in my beliefes that the gifts of the spirit never ceased to exist. but there is a lot wrong with the pentecostal faith even when it comes to speaking in tongues. when the bible talks about tongues its reffering to people speaking in a language that wasnt previously learned or known to them. a human language. Theres no scripture in the bible that proves the kind of speaking in tongues that you find in the pentecostal church today.
That's a popular misconception in the cessationist camp. Paul said that when you speak in tongues you're speaking to God, and no man understands you. The I Cor. 14 tongues is different from the Acts 2 tongues. Jesus said that believers would speak in NEW TONGUES. He didn't say that they would speak unlearned human languages to foreigners. "New tongues" would include unlearned human languages, but it would also include a heavenly language or possibly even angelic languages. See my Strange Fire rebuttal video. ua-cam.com/video/bICL6-5-zsc/v-deo.html
Thats a great answer. Probably one of the best answers ive received in years on the subject but i would have to ask. Why would speaking in tongues in one part of the new testament be different from another in the new testament? Why would the gifts change from one point to another? And if they are so different then why do you hear preachers putting all of these scriptures together? would they not just use the teachings in 1 corinthians 14 then to make their case?
Thanks for the compliment. I believe the answer to your first question is found in I Cor. 12:4. _"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit"_ There are various uses and manifestations of spiritual gifts. Paul mentions gifts (plural) of healing in I Cor. 12:9. In the next verse he mentions various kinds of tongues. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+12&version=ESV
Speaking unlearned human languages as a sign is one manifestation of the gift of tongues. Another manifestation is for public assembly when an interpreter is present. (I Cor. 14:27,28) Yet another manifestation is the prayer language that Paul discusses in the first part of I Cor. 14. As for why ministers mix them all up, all I can say is that these are spiritual things and we humans aren't too bright in this area. That's why we need revelation from the Holy Spirit and instructions. Ministers also get mixed up on things like predestination, sanctification, grace ... etc. Maybe Pentecostal/Neo-Pentecostal ministers need to do more teaching in this area to address some of the confusion. Blessings.
Youre welcome for the compliment :D
However, i cant seem to see the same thing nor the answer to my question being in first corinthians 12:4. Paul says now there are diversities of gifts, but the same spirit. Diversities also meaning varieties (as you translated). When i read this my understanding of what Paul is saying is that There are a variety of gifts. and he talks about the varieties and diversities in future verses. healings, prophesies, tongues and so on. I believe these diversities of the gifts are what paul is mentioning as in the kinds of gifts that are available. I fail to see where that scripture pertains or alludes to Tongues and New tongues as being two different things.
And as far as speaking in tongues is concerned. Whether you believe that the babling practiced by the modern day pentecostal church is a language of angels or not. What about the scriptures also in first corinthians chapter 12? I want to read verse 28 through verse 30. It says "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diverse kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?" And the answer to those questions Paul has is no. And if the answer is that not every gift is for every person then why do pentecostal churches preach so adamantly, that everyone has to speak in tongues? and in most churches (such as the one i belonged to) believe that if you do not speak in tongues that you can not be baptized?
Again thanks for your answers and searching of the scriptures. most people i ask these questions to just tell me how God awful I am that i have these questions and need to repent lol. but i know better than that. Thanks for your time and God bless :)
Brother PussNuggets (what a handle!) I went through this same experience 40 years ago. I was raised Southern Baptist, and when I started attending an Assembly of God church I was encouraged (more like "badgered" ... in love of course) about getting "the baptism" and speaking in tongues. I wanted to take my time and get a clear understanding of the subject before I dove right in to this. I read that passage you're referring to (do all speak with tongues?) and argued that maybe God didn't want me to speak in tongues. They pointed out to me that the context there is ministry gifts, not spiritual gifts as was being discussed earlier in the chapter. Not all have the ministry gift of tongues and interpretation, but all can speak in tongues in prayer and edify themselves by speaking mysteries in the spirit. As for water baptism, I don't think that tongues should be a requirement for that and I don't know anybody who does, although I have no reason to doubt what you say. As discussed earlier, there's plenty of confusion in this area.
This isn't an area where I feel that we should divide. I know lots of good Christians who don't speak in tongues and I know people who do speak in tongues that aren't necessarily good Christians. (After all, the Corinthians spoke in tongues and were as carnal as they could be.) The main point of this video was to show how esteemed ministers often spread misinformation about Pentecostals and Pentecostal theology. I wish they were all as respectful and honest as you apparently are, but such is not the case. Blessings.
Some understand praying in tongues to be a “secret code language” that prevents Satan and his demons from understanding our prayers and thereby gaining an advantage over us. This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons: 1) The New Testament consistently describes tongues as a human language, and Satan and his demons are well able to understand human languages. 2) The Bible records countless believers praying in their own language, out loud, with no concern of Satan intercepting the prayer. Even if Satan and/or his demons hear and understand the prayers we pray, they have absolutely no power to prevent God from answering the prayers according to His will. We know that God hears our prayers, and that fact makes it irrelevant whether Satan and his demons hear and understand our prayers.
What do we say, then, about the many Christians who have experienced praying in tongues and find it to be very personally edifying? First, we must base our faith and practice on Scripture, not experience. We must view our experiences in light of Scripture, not interpret Scripture in light of our experiences. Second, many of the cults and world religions also report occurrences of speaking in tongues/praying in tongues. Obviously the Holy Spirit is not gifting these unbelieving individuals. So, it seems that the demons are able to counterfeit the gift of speaking in tongues. This should cause us to compare even more carefully our experiences with Scripture. Third, studies have shown how speaking/praying in tongues can be a learned behavior. Through hearing and observing others speak in tongues, a person can learn the procedure, even subconsciously. This is the most likely explanation for the vast majority of instances of speaking/praying in tongues among Christians. Fourth, the feeling of “self-edification” is natural. The human body produces adrenaline and endorphins when it experiences something new, exciting, emotional, and/or disconnected from rational thought.
Praying in tongues is most definitely an issue on which Christians can respectfully and lovingly agree to disagree. Praying in tongues is not what determines salvation. Praying in tongues is not what separates a mature Christian from an immature Christian. Whether or not there is such a thing as praying in tongues as a personal prayer language is not a fundamental of the Christian faith. So, while we believe the biblical interpretation of praying in tongues leads away from the idea of a private prayer language for personal edification, we also recognize that many who practice such are our brothers and sisters in Christ and are worthy of our love and respect.
I'm not so sure about the "code language" idea, but it's not true that the Bible only describes tongues as a human language. Paul said that _"he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit."_ (I Cor. 14:2) You don't need a human language to communicate with God, and if no one understands then it must not be a human language. Paul also mentions the tongues of angels. (I Cor. 13:1) While that might have been hyperbole, it would stand to reason that angels have a non-human language that they speak, which would make a non-human prayer language seem all the more likely.
As for not interpreting scripture in the light of our experience, I would agree to a certain extent. But as you may recall Peter's theology changed after his vision and his trip to the home of Cornelius. Paul's theology also changed drastically after his experience on the road to Damascus. Sometimes God gives us experiences to help correct our theology. So while we should always base our beliefs on God's Word, we should also remain open to a new understanding of scripture as He unveils it to us. I grew up Southern Baptist, and it took me a couple of years to come around on the tongues thing after I started learning about it. I certainly understand the reluctance that some have because I've been there. But I've also experienced the freedom of praying in the Spirit for an hour or two at a time when I feel limited by praying with my understanding. I could never do that with my previous understanding.
As for your point about cults and other religions manifesting tongues, that's a bit of a red herring. Pharaoh's magicians performed miracles similar to Moses' but that didn't invalidate his miracles. In Matthew 12:27 Jesus mentioned that there were Jews who cast out devils, but that certainly doesn't take away from the deliverance that He brought to people. The issue here is whether or not tongues are for today. Jesus said that believers would speak in new tongues. He didn't say that first century believers or the Apostles would. As long as people believe in Jesus it would stand to reason that tongues will be in operation both as a sign to unbelievers and as an unknown language for private devotion.
@@JewandGreek Why do we need an unknown language to speak to God when He understands what we say in our own language ? There has been and still is a complete misunderstanding of " tongues" as described in Acts and because of what Paul had to say about it in Corinthians, false/wrong teaching has been given on this topic.
What, then, is praying in tongues, and how is it different than speaking in tongues? First Corinthians 14:13-17 indicates that praying in tongues is also to be interpreted. As a result, it seems that praying in tongues was offering a prayer to God. This prayer would minister to someone who spoke that language, but would also need to be interpreted so that the entire body could be edified.
This interpretation does not agree with those who view praying in tongues as a prayer language. This alternate understanding can be summarized as follows: praying in tongues is a personal prayer language between a believer and God (1 Corinthians 13:1) that a believer uses to edify himself (1 Corinthians 14:4). This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons: 1) How could praying in tongues be a private prayer language if it is to be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:13-17)? 2) How could praying in tongues be for self-edification when Scripture says that the spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church, not the self (1 Corinthians 12:7)? 3) How can praying in tongues be a private prayer language if the gift of tongues is a “sign to unbelievers” (1 Corinthians 14:22)? 4) The Bible makes it clear that not everyone possesses the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:11, 28-30). How could tongues be a gift for self-edification if not every believer can possess it? Do we not all need to be edified?
Isaiah, In 1Cor.14:2, For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men but unto God for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries".In Acts ch.2, this is the language the apostles( and others) spoke as verbal confirmation that they had been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Loudly speaking in tongues is to have an interpreter. It did, at Pentecost, God interpreted, individually, to those in the crowd.The miracle for them was the hearing in their language, not the speaking of it.Recieving the Holy Spirit IS the baptism of the Holy Spirit which the Holy Spirit bears witness, verbally, through our tongue.What language would the Spirit speak in except a heavenly language. Lastly, in Acts ch.10, when Cornelius, and his guests recieved the Holy Spirit, and spoke in tongues, speaking in known earthly languages wouldn't have been convincing enough to convince the skeptical jews, they would have had to have spoken in a language recognizable as what they spoke at Pentecost.In wasn't multiple languages spoken at Pentecost, it was one language spoken by multiple people.
Paul said this in his epistle first epistle to the Corinthians
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 1 Corinthians 14:18-KJV
It sounds to me that speaking in tongues was a common occurrence among the members of the early church. Saying it was only limited to 4 times is really not true. Sometimes I wonder if these people read the same bible that I read. Good Job on this video!
Paul spoke in tongues meaning he spoke intelligible languages dialect and foreign languages. First of all Paul spoke greek, latin, Hebrew, and Aramaic, he was Hellenistic jew, born as from Greek and Jewish parents and a natural citizen of Rome. He spoke different languages that can be interpret that is speaking in tongues aka intelligible language(s)
Isaiah Hines what about 1 Cor. 14:2 and 1 Cor. 14:14? The apostle Paul couldn’t have been referring to intelligible languages here because he’s “not speaking to men, but unto God. Howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries with his spirit.” In v.14 he says “my spirit prays but my understanding (mind NIV) is unfruitful.”
Isaiah Hines, this whole section in Corinthians has a theme of addressing gifts. Paul is talking about the gift of tongues which is different than speaking known languages. This is the plain and simple meaning of the text.
Shaun Mason 1 corinthians 14:2 does not speak to people but to God Paul’s teaching on spiritual gifts, including tongues, generally emphasizes the importance of using gifts to build up the faith of others. A prayer (angelic) language between a believer and God does not encourage the faith of those who cannot understand what is said; when used in public, an interpreter should be present.
Also in the same verse "no one understands" implies that the language requires an interpreter, or it may suggest that neither the speaker nor anyone else may understand it.
Marcus Curtis Music actually the chapter references the main topic of love and how it is better to prophesy than to speak in tongues. Tongues in Greek, because u have to remember the new testament was written in koine greek, the term tongues is glossa. The Greek word glōssa is literally the word for the tongue-the organ found on the floor of the mouth in humans and many animals. Due to the tongue’s association with speech, words designating the tongue have metaphorically come to indicate language or speech in numerous languages, including Hebrew (lashon) and Greek (glōssa). Also the gift of tongues was rather a controversial topic during the church of corinth as it is in today's Christian realms. But the main focus of the letter to the corinth was to express the spiritual gifts in love and with edification to the church, which comes from the holy spirit. When Paul speaks of the gift of tongues he backs it up with the need for there to be a translator, which does shows in the text clearly of kjv that tongues while in church has to be expressed with an interpreter or it is meaningless to the people that hear u speaking in tongues. Yet, tongues do exist but no in the terminology and actions that most Pentecostals give it by speaking gibberish in church, that is not needed or appropriate for spiritual growth and edification, and sure do not have to speak in tongues to get saved or to even be filled with the holy spirit. For all people do not have the gift tongues as Paul says through the rhetoric "do all speak in tongues?" The text expresses that tongues in public needs and interpreter, because it becomes mysteries to everyone hearing that does not understand.
I was raised UPC and there was no rejection of the Trinity. While I appreciate the video, I believe that would qualify as misinformation
Only if you define "Trinity" in a modalistic sense. Did your church teach that God is three persons or three manifestations? www.upci.org/search?query=oneness
As usual, your voice is one speaking truth.
I'm so glad somebody came out finally in defense of the Pentecostal and holiness movement
pastor of a large church that he gave in 1999. Despite the fact that he has a masters degree from a reputable seminary What seminary ?
Dallas Theological Seminary
@@JewandGreek "masters degree from a reputable seminary he repeatedly"
Right a reputable bible thumper school not a real seminary.
@@truethinker221 Well I don't agree with a lot of their views like cessationism and their emphasis on dispensationalism, but they are accredited and have a strong emphasis on systematic theology, textual criticism and Greek so I respect them for that.
@Evelyn Choy To me it is not a real seminary i will look up a definition. Seminaries are attache to Major universities . Like Yale, Harvard, Cambridge ETC. I guess that i just my pet peeve. Usually a seminary is attached to a Denomination . Isn't The Dallas Theological Seminary a Baptist affiliation. The Baptist main foundation was set up to deny modern biblical theology and destroy modern seminaries and bring back fundamentalism ?. They have changed.
@Evelyn Choy Ya your right it is accredited. I don't think it was in the beginning. **Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada, And they are way more, ill say moderate now.
Why are there so many misrepresentations? Very sad.
It is sad, but this is what happens when people are driven by religious bigotry and animosity rather than an objective quest for the truth.
Because the devil can't stand the truth and he uses religious people to try to tear it down
I was part of this movement over fourty years.
Some thngs are true, some truth exaggerated. Plenty of emotionalism thought to be God's Spirit.
Lke nearly every other relgious movement wthin every culture and religion
I'm sick and tired of this cessation trash. Go ahead buy that lie. Next thing you'll be set up to believe salvation has ceased.what u gonna do then.
I heard this video. Like yourself, I saw the misinformation. I really enjoyed all the other videos in his series on church history; however, I certainly took issue with this particular video.
Thanks for the input. I left his name out because he doesn't have a history of doing this kind of thing to my knowledge, and I believe he just spoke out of ignorance based on what he was told in seminary.
Jew and Greek
I listened to that whole series on church history and loved it. I only had two issues, the first of course being the misinformation in that particular video; and, the second being his affinity for Calvinism. As a Pentecostal/Charismatic I want to hear about the Great Awakenings and other great moves of God!
P. S. Thanks for making your videos making an apologetic for continuationism and for tongues and the other gifts of the Spirit. I’m so tired of searching for testimonies of people receiving the baptism in the Holy Ghost and getting videos pop up in my feed entitled, “Exposing Tongues,” etc.
My oh my oh my.... God forbid it all.. look at the confusion we have among the body of Christ. Heck lotta people in the world are not saved, and a bare minimum of the world population is saved (born again experience) and even in that only a little percentage walk and live a life according to the Spirit, that is denying the self and carrying the cross and then we have cessationism, Methodism, and all denomination and sects within the saved fraternity and within that only a little percentage, I mean a bare little percentage believe and walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit, only with which we can fight the good fight, finish the race and do the Spiritual warfare that Paul talks when he says that our fight is not against flesh and blood but against the principalities of the sky and against the demonic kingdom. This shows us the overall picture that of the small percentage of the body of Christ only an iota of us are equipped and empowered in the spirit so that we can fight this spiritual fight for Jesus along with the Holy Spirit. This reminds us that we as the body of Christ are weak against satan and the Kingdom of darkness, the power of witchcraft and soccery, satanic churches, the Illuminati, the occult practicers and this is the reason why the gates of hell are prevailing against the Church of God.
I had a thought that struck me a few days back. On the day of Pentecost, when the disciples were in ONE ACCORD, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was given to the 120. Look here with close attention, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit was that powerful because they were at peace and agreement between each other so that they were in ONE ACCORD. In these last days when the prophecy of Joel about the latter outpouring of the Spirit of God is gonna be a reality our churches and the body of Christ are under attack by the demonic powers, especially jezebel who is a hater of the prophets, to bring division among us so that when the latter outpouring vd happen we would not be able to receive it in the full extent of its intensity because of the division, hatred and animosity among us the body of Christ. If we don't wake up to the fact that we would lose the full effect of this great outpouring of the promise of our Heavenly Father, which the Holy Spirit Himself, we can't break the strongholds of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, sexual perversion, pornography, feminism, witchcraft, occult, anger, rage and all of the spiritual strongholds of the demonic world of our generation. We are truly in the times of Noah, Let us awake church and be the warriors that Jesus envisioned us we would be when He died for us. Shalom
I appreciate that you stand up for the charismatic end of Christianity but the fact of the matter is, most of this is true. Word of Faith is Alive and Well in most Pentecostal and charismatic churches. While, as a Foursquare person, I experienced many amazing Miracles, and I don't doubt that they were God, the teachings in that church is an error. It can do some bad stuff. On the other hand, the conservatives go too far to split hairs. So, I've pretty much given up on churches. It's become a circus. I do love my charismatic roots. I'm just weary of them.
I completely understand any Charismatic who grows weary of the error and extremism within the movement. I've been there myself, and actually took a break for a couple of years and attended a Presbyterian church. But eventually I got tired of the unbelief and apathy toward the gifts of the Spirit and started attending a Charismatic church again. God was telling me not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Joe McIntyre, the head of the Kenyon Gospel Publishing Society, had essentially the same experience. He got tired of the overemphasis on healing and prosperity in the faith movement and left for awhile, but then he realized that he seemed to be sick and broke all the time so he returned.
As for your claim that "most of this is true", could you elaborate?
there is a vast tendency in the charismatic movement to lean towards gullibility. It got to where pretty much anything anybody had to say, providing they said God told them or God showed them, made it gospel. It's almost addictive. You were not allowed to question someone who said they were being talked to directly by God. I lost one of my best friends because she swore she saw smoke coming out of her Bible. Nothing I could say could convince her or even cause her to consider that she was being tricked. Another thing that went through the charismatic church..glittered. People were coming up with gold glitter on their skin. I got glittered once while having coffee with three friends. I still can't tell you where it came from, but I knew it was a trick from the unseen world at the time. I ended up losing all three friends within two years.
I don't say any of this lightly. I was charismatic from the time I was 16 up until just a couple years ago. I was deeply involved with four square in Oregon which is very big there. And then cea here in California which is a cousin to Foursquare. I knew Roy Hicks Jr and his dad. And many of the people who made a name in the movement. It took a lot to get out. Most of the folks I know ended up spinning their wheels in their faith and not maturing. I'm still trying to sort out the difference. It's very hard 2 contrast when all you've ever known is charismatic. To this day, I look back and wonder what ever possessed me to get that deeply involved. As far as the gifts and all? I believe in those, but I don't think it is pronounced through the charismatic church. I think they have I look alike. An imposter. But then that makes it hard to know the real thing. It's been a long walk.
PS, but I do appreciate running into and so she ate of the charismatic. I do miss it because they're good people. They mean well. And I really love being a part of it. But I have to follow the truth. The charismatic way we can make you crazy.
@@ConstantCompanion Same here. And if you want to fool people into giving money. It is easy to fake speaking in tongues , Just repeat the ten phonetic sounds. Tow,knee,ma,,ra,la,sha,ka,fa.pa, sa,
Tow ra la ra sa ca pa ca pa ca shn da la ca fa pa sa sha la sh ka fa pa sa. Start crying and repeat with terrifying speed .
Great job!
Good grief....bad scholarship again.
Can’t get the facts right
Spot on as always.
152 thumbs up in 3 years says a lot more…it says this clown has nothing to offer
Word of Faith denies atonement of Christ.halos are pagan.
We do not deny the atonement of Christ. That's nonsense.
Yeah idk where you heard that foolishness
@Jew and Greek
Pentecostalism teaches that the saved person can still perish within Hell....
Do you not know that to believe such a thing is to attack the sufficiency of Christ's atonement!?
Because if Pentecostalism truly believed that the atonement of Christ were truly sufficient than they would know that it would be Impossible for the saved person to come under condemnation because they would know that the saved person has been through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his finished eternally pardoned from the pentatly of sin...
I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, but the fact Pentecostalism believes as I stated above is enough to tell me Pentecostalism doesn't have the truth.
Pentecostalism offers just about as much hope as Catholicism.
Which isn't hope at all to be honest, because you both teach that we can, but merely wish we escape Hell's eternal torments, and make it to heaven.
Both of you believe that we have to through works remain in a state of Grace in order to make it into heaven.
What wickedness.
What perversion...
Work's salvationst
It's no wonder Pentecostalism is falling for ecumenicalism and so doing teaming up with Catholicism...
Because for the most part! you both share the same beliefs!!!!!