#72: Why the Wrestling in Jiu Jitsu is so Low Level
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Hold your fire. I am just the messenger-dozens of people have DM’ed me asking this exact question. There’s actually a pretty simple and straightforward solution. Learn how to wrestle from wrestlers. Learn Judo from Judokas. Learn Jiu Jitsu from Jiujiteiros. Anyone who has no formal training in wrestling or Judo, but claims to understand it, is fooling themselves and you. You cannot understand what it feels like unless you have done it. The good thing is that there wrestlers who do Jiu Jitsu and they can teach you how to move people properly.
I am bored to death with the collar tie battles on opponents with upright stances. There’s a reason it doesn’t work. Watch Greco, which has a similar stance, and you won’t see that…because it’s ineffective and inefficient. In greco for sure, it’s going to result in a duck under to suplex bomb. Now that you’re on the mat, you have to deal with him on your back as you recover. Our hand fighting strategies should adapt to the stance. An upright stance hard to pull down, but easy to shoot through. I show a lot of this on my channel and on my wrestlingforbjj instructional. All I want is to watch BJJ athletes wrestle at an upper highschool varsity level. Right now, the majority of wrestling in BJJ is at a highschool JV or 3rd string varsity level. They are the best athletes in the world but are stiff and not sure what to do out there. These things are easy to solve. Myself and countless highschool wrestling coaches are used to teaching kids who have zero experience to state championships within as little as 1-2 years. BJJ has been in the US for over 30 years and the wrestling still needs a lot of work.
At 1:53 I left this video! Why? I wrestled high school and college and I KNOW this dude is right!
As someone who just started training jiu jitsu it’s hilarious how true this is. I be having to control my facial expressions sometimes when one of the instructors is showing anything from the standup.
Dude! Welcome to my channel! I love your breakdowns-best on the internet! You can’t help in most cases either or your professor gets mad. That is what happened to me
I think a major problem with wrestling in BJJ is that 99% of people training don’t actually care about wrestling. I’ve seen so many BJJ practitioners debate the efficacy of Judo vs Wrestling for BJJ, but their context is not that of actually learning either. Their context is simply stealing a takedown. Not the set ups, controls, or any of that, just a basic takedown or two that they can learn as quickly as possible. They just don’t care about Wrestling otherwise.
The issue is when rule sets change overnight and they can/do for many sports. In my lifetime as a wrestler, I have seen the rules change like crazy. Especially freestyle. And when I did Judo right out of college wrestling, you could still shoot on/grab legs. I believe the rule sets will change as Jiu Jitsu becomes more popular and the demand for action is pressured by the spectators. This is what happened in judo and wrestling. It will require better wrestling and those who weren’t asleep at the wheel will be on top overnight
A surprising amount of people I rolled with this year asked me if I wrestled in the past, your videos have definitely been a major reason why they thought that 😂
Awesome man! The system works. Especially a lot of the stuff I show on my instructional with how to deal with upright postures a push pull
This is why I train multiple grappling arts. This issue right here.
Then you will be qualified to teach others the systems and THAT is what we need!
John has worked with high level wrestlers like Steve Mocco and Kyle Cerminara AND judokas like Satoshi Ishii and Travis Stephens. All have spoken very highly of John’s ability to teach Wrestling/Judo.
I don’t want to make an appeal to authority. But this leads me to believe that BJJ is a very different approach to the stand up position than Greco/Freestyle/Judo.
Really enjoyed the video 😊
Yes, but without John ever wrestling, he doesn’t know how it feels and clearly that doesn’t translate to his athletes. I know Steve Mocco-he grew up with one of my best friends and collegiate wrestling teammate. That man will never say anything bad about anyone. It isn’t that John doesn’t understand moves on any level, he clearly doesn’t know how to teach people the details of how to get them to work or else his guys would demolish everyone. They train 28 hours a week. I can get a child to wrestle better in a few months with like 5hrs a week.
If Mocco was teaching the wrestling in that room, those guys would be incredible.
If traditional wrestling didn’t work in Jiu Jitsu, then Dorian Olivarez, a highschool boy, wouldn’t have kicked grown men’s asses in ADCC trials using primarily wrestling. There’s money to be had and all of those guys benefit from associating themselves with John, because of his talent in ground BJJ.
Do you really think GSP learned how to wrestle from John? John has made it sound that way. Watch John’s takedown instructionals and you’ll see he is in the process of learning. S2G1 is a shit show. Skipping across the mat on both knees to shoot? Fucking kidding me.
GSP learned how to wrestle with the Canadian Olympic wrestling team. Gia Sissaouri was there at that time. But Gia isn’t going to make GSP any passive income. GSP spent very little time with John and while I am sure he learned a lot about BJJ, John isn’t the reason his career turned out that way. It’s disrespectful to those who spent a lot of time with him. But John benefits from GSP as much as GSP benefits from John. Same with Stevens. Guy was winning gold medals long before John. He didn’t get his black belt from John in 3 years because John taught him everything he knows.
The difference is I don’t give two shits about any of it. I am going up for Full Professor in February. My life is set. I make a good living on my own. I do this because I love helping people and as a scientist I tell the truth. The truth hurts. The wrestling in BJJ is like 2nd to 3rd string highschool wrestling. Once it gets to the ground it’s another story. But this wrestling is different argument is dead. John killed it by literally showing the entire folkstyle wrestling stance and saying that it was the “new system” of “scrimmage wrestling.” Nope, just good old American wrestling done at a level consistent with entry level. I talk to some of the most well known people in BJJ online in private. They 100% agree with me. They just don’t have the balls to say it, because their careers depend on them selling instructionals. I don’t give a fuck because I am making a damn good living as a college professor. And I have always been this way. I say what needs to be said even when it hurts. A lot of people respect that, because it needs to be said and I don’t say it in an overly offensive way. For those whose feelings it hurts aren’t paying attention to the data. All of his guys reach for collar ties on people standing straight up. All of them do pointless 50/50 hand grips that amount to nothing. All of their takedown finishes look like JV wrestling. Coming up to the waist like JV wrestlers
You should watch the Iowa vs Iowa State dual meet. That’s damn good wrestling. You can hear the coaches talking about staying on the legs instead of coming up to the waist. No space. Kick ass wrestling. This is what I want in BJJ
@@josephbreza-grappling9459crazy Dorian didn’t make it past the quarterfinals at super 32 the following weekend
@dfjr6525 yes!!! He came up to the waist off a shot and got fucking lat dropped to his back! It worked in ADCC, because nobody had an answer. Super32 is a fucking seriously tough tournament, but it goes to show you how boys defeated the boy (in dominant fashion) who dominated the men in ADCC doing the same shit
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 pretty exciting we have that much room to grow in jiu jitsu. Cool time to be in it
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 Just to play the danaher’s advocate here, I think the main motivation he has with reaching for the collar ties is to what he calls the concept of “building pressure over time”. Constantly hanging on collar ties makes the opponent engage their back and neck to posture up and fatigues them over the course of longer jiujitsu matches. In wrestling this strategy doesn’t simply work due to shorter time periods.
Another aspect of it which Meregali has been implementing recently in his last 2 matches vs Pena and Kaynan was creating a nasty feint. He used collar ties to setup singles, punch underhooks and go blast doubles. As a system I see it has worked against people who are hesitant to shoot specially heavier weight classes.
Thoughts on my interpretation? Love to see some contrarian views on the topic of wrestling. This will all help in improving the future course of Jiujitsu’s biggest weakness.
This helped me 3 years ago. I always listen to bjj guys with the most basic or understanding. Even on UA-cam. Then I got to train with college guys and started seeing and watching high level wrestlers teach online then everything clicked for me. Everyone think I wrestled in high school but I never did lol everything is from last 3 years or falling in love with it. And it hurts when I cross train or see black belts teaching bad takedown mechanics. Also learned there’s more to wrestling than the takedown.
First, BJJ black belts, for many of em, generally have average jiujitsu and low caliber wrestling. Second, BJJ need takedowns to ground you to submit you. Nothing about solid wrestling takedown to pin. If you roll with a BJJ black belt and can submit him, cool, tell him how to wrestle and all that, other than that, if you cant submit him, good luck with trying to tell him his wrestling is bad form.
BJJ guys have big egos, so if you don't submit em, they'll give you the def ears.
@@tededo very good point. I’ve out wrestled black belts and when I try to give them a tip lot are closed ears. But at my gym now I’m Atlanta I train under a Marcelo Gracie black belt and he actually listens to lower belts and open to hear anything.
Man, my old BJJ coach (who kicked me out for coaching wrestling and doing judo) acted like he respected my wrestling career but didn’t implement anything I taught him. He was telling everyone to just stand up and I was like “NO! You’re gonna get suplexed without hand control! You have to do this systematically like we do in wrestling to prevent getting wrecked.” He was like oh wow I hadn’t thought of that! People could get hurt. Anyways, just stand up. Same with the side bodylock. Smh
"I wish I would of wrestled" Common thing I hear all the time.
LOVE THIS VIDEO.
Firstly, it makes me super happy to see that you're in a good place. You're not just playfully roasting jiu-jitsu, but also your own injury. Epic, dude! Glad that you have the strength to stay positive despite your janky leg.
Secondly, your insights weren't just intellectually stimulating, they were practical too. Hearing you speak about grips for more upright and hunched-over stances? That was SOOOO good to hear. I'd never thought about it that way. And it instantly made a few things click for me. So thanks for that.
Lastly, you introduced me to a few new potential wrestling instructors. And I'm a big fan of watching different people talk about the same moves and ideas. My brain gets a little inattentive when I get everything from the same person and then I miss out on details. But now that I can hear the same stuff from a bunch of other folks? Then my dumb ass brain will definitely catch every little detail. ^^
Thanks for the video and good vibes, Joe. It's appreciated, as always.
Thank you for all your comments and for being an active subscriber. Yes, the strategies and techniques are essential for efficiency and efficacy
Thank you for adressing the bs going on in the JJ community. During the last Year i had no possibility to train JJ in the location i was studying, but i had a wrestling school near me. What i learned was that i dont know s*** about wrestling. My weight is 205 and easy outwrestled by decent people that compete on regional level with 40-50 pounds less. Im a livetime Athlete with 6years of Bjj and i litterly coudn't do anything to them. What i did learn was that the same basic Concept apply to wrestling as they do in JJ, it's just hard to apply standing up due to the fact that were used so much to do it in a guard type situation
Once you learn how to wrestle it will always be there
Great insight! Your videos are helping me tremendously, hope youre recovery is going well!
I am glad to hear that. And thank you! I am definitely turning a serious corner now
My man Breza! Finally someone talking about the jiu jitsu collar tie epidemic. There needs to be more material on posting
No doubt! The regurgitation of classic 1990s wrestling vs BJJ shit is all over these comments. Lol! I never once said wrestlers are better at Jiu Jitsu, yet I have people commenting about how a wrestler has never won ADCC. Yeah, if they don’t know BJJ then how could they. If they know both they are super effective-like how Dorian Olivarez, a highschool boy fucking wrecked grown ass saucy men using classic wrestling combined with BJJ and won ADCC trials
Somehow the message was lost for some…I want the current BJJ champions to get better at wrestling. That’s the message, lol
@@josephbreza-grappling9459the internet doesn’t know how valuable this information is🤦 I’ve given up on the internet these days 🫠
@josephbreza-grappling9459 Dorian has been doing BJJ as long as he's been wrestling. His dad is a black belt. I'm not sure we can say he's a wrestler doing bjj. He's the future though. I thought we peaked with Mica but Dorian is just as crazy if not crazier. Dorian has more competitive matches by 17 than most ADCC competitors will ever have. That is the biggest difference between wrestlers and BJJ guys IMO. They get so much more experience.
@armedjoy3045 my point is he took it to the ground when he wanted and how he wanted using classic wrestling. Once it’s on the ground he used Jiu Jitsu. But these guys tried to stand with him and got fucking wrecked. And he is like 17 years old
As a judoka who then went into bjj, then started wrestling with hs/college kids bc I wanted to learn actual wrestling, there’s so much here that I agree with. One thing I’ve learned is that bjj-only guys who say so and so throws or takedowns won’t work bc you’ll get choked out have never been thrown or taken down by actual judokas or wrestlers before who wanted to hurt them. For example, a uchi mata done by a bjj guy is NOT the same uchi mata that judokas will hit on you. An actual uchi mata will rattle you I kid you not, and hell, if they wanted to be mean, they’ll slam your ribs and make sure it hurts. The level of ferocity and aggressiveness that they exchange and accept is completely different. Like you said, the “gentleman” grip fighting is silly too. Grip fighting is where stand up grappling starts; without good grips, you got nothing, meaning they’ll crush your hands to not give you those grips. Heck, it’s even worse in gi bc a gi-grip works as an extended leverage and judokas understand this at a fundamental level, which is why they’ll fight tooth and nail to NOT give you those grips. But I see too many bjj guys just letting you grab their gi wherever the other guys want without realizing that’s like someone pass your guard. This is why you need actual judoka/wrestlers to teach stand ups.
Yeah the let’s both get collar ties or let’s both get collar and sleeve grips is all you need to know about the skill level. My judo coach is 76 and a master (7th degree coral belt) of all styles of grappling-with Sumo being the only exception. He wrestled in college too. His game is to block your first grip get yours and go. Some younger guys popularized this with the power of the internet, but it’s been this way forever. I want to get to my sword before you get to yours, because I need to respect the notion that you could be very skilled
Gordon’s strategy for all his standup is to walk in and grab the collar, even with both hands, and just pull. For 5, 10, 15 minutes.. he doesn’t care.. just continue to wear on them, win the collar tie battle so he’s the one wearing on the other person.. if they try to turn away from it, he looks for the back, arm drags, and or kicks out their foot. He does this in every match and it seems to be working pretty well for him. Mason Fowler came in with the exact same style against Hasaim.. he just spammed the head pull on a much taller opponent even and crushed him with it..
Now this could definitely be because they’re not being properly countered.. but this double collar tie pull on the head style is THE main current winning meta in heavier weight Jiu Jitsu matches. And it has some Jiu Jitsu related reasons as to why it’s an effective dilemma.. Do you think it just needs better wrestlers to counter it and then we will move past this being used in the meta? It can’t be argued tho that right now it is what the top players in the sport are using and winning with..
Btw, I love watching you roll. You have such a unique style and you remain so calm.
Yes, I think the wrestling is just so bad that nobody knows how to counter it. Because like I showed on the video, Arujau is taking down the highest level wrestlers who reach for collar ties and only for a split second.
Now, and like I said on the video. It doesn’t matter what Gordon does, because that man can go to the ground in a bad position and you are still fucked. But for us mortals, we probably want to take the mat to the ground on our own terms. Top position isn’t a bad place to be. But this much is certain-there is good technique and bad technique in wrestling. What a lot of people are doing is bad technique. They can get away with it because the technique others have is worse. But once their technique improves, the game will change. It’s like when they started leg locking everyone, there wasn’t an answer. They didn’t get worse at leg locks, everyone got better.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 aww thanks 🙂👊 -- Cool yea it is interesting.. there is so much evolution coming to jiu jitsu as far as standing goes.. so much evolution in general.. this is one of those sports that doesn’t age well.. we will always look back and go “damn I / we sucked” and that’s still got a long way to go 😁🤷🏻♂️
@@BenEddy I can tell you as someone who has been in wrestling for 33 years and watched old film, that the same is true. The iconic match between Dan Gable and Larry Owings in 1970 looks incredibly sloppy by today’s standards. They were tough as hell, but were also sloppy as hell. Our technique and timing is much better. However I would say that a switch went off somewhere in the 80s, because it was dramatically different and you can watch NCAA footage from late 80s-early 90s and in a lot of cases they were just as good if not more solid in many ways. The ground game in particular was tougher then. Nowadays people let each other off the bottom way too easily. 90s was like the peak of scraps I think. The meta in collegiate wrestling now is leg entanglements off people’s shots. Personally I hate it, but what it does is stop the scramble. AND we can learn from it in BJJ. I am always saying on my channel to stop chasing the frickin waist because you’ll get thrown and there’s a scramble. Wrap up legs on takedowns and there’s no more scramble. People can move well without their legs. I think BJJ has the potential to be the most exciting form of grappling on the planet. We just need to be open to learning about what works in other forms of wrestling and stop compartmentalizing them as “different sports” and ignoring what we can use. Dealing with the quad pod is a good example. This has been solved in wrestling, but I have seen some BJJ guys do weird shit from there that frankly doesn’t work. If the person understands highschool wrestling, they will escape.
Subbed. Good vid
Great video about jiujitsu's weaknesses, the sport is evolving faster than previous years and it's good to have people correcting bad habits in the standing game.
If the coaches lose the ego and get some good wrestlers and judokas to teach the stand up portion of class, these problems will solve themselves
❤happy to see you back
Thank you!
Glad I found this video, I had just recently been asking peers if I should look into John's standing to ground instructional (wrestling for BJJ basically), or if I should look at a more traditional wrestling approach (Cary Kolat types). After watching this video I feel dumb for even asking lol. Good info and perspective sir.
John shows a lot of good things. Watch my review of his instructional. I just wanted to point out that he does know moves, but the system(s) for how to implement these moves really requires a legitimate wrestler. It is just entry level mechanics and basically no hand fighting/push pull. I would honestly buy Brandon Reed’s, Trasso’s, JFlo’s, Marsh’s, and my instructionals, as we were all collegiate wrestlers who understand Jiu Jitsu stand up too. When it comes to groundwork, Danaher is one of the greatest to ever live. I like Lachlan too. I think the way they approach the systems from the ground are akin to how I approach systems of wrestling-stand up, top, and bottom positions
Interesting viewpoints. Thanks for sharing. My jiujitsu coach wrestled in high school and college, and continued wrestling into his jiujitsu career. I'd even trained with the local uni wrestling club. I definitely recall the fundamentals that you're speaking of, and I'm excited to revisit them.
That is awesome! If he wrestled then you’re going to get some great instruction!
This is so helpful as a lifelong Bjj guy trying to learn good wrestling fundamentals!
Keep at it!
Good points, great instruction, and I wish you the best in your mission. I think you are spot on with your technical analysis, but you probably also need to step back a bit and look at the cultures of the sports to understand why there isn't as much cross pollination.
1) Its very hard to learn to wrestle in the USA as an adult with no prior experience. Yes there are a few places where you can do it, but they are not really trying to get people in the door and grow the business of it like BJJ. This makes it very hard to get your wrestling up to a high level because you are sort of limited to the level of your training partners, and an adult can't walk into a room with a bunch of decent to advanced wrestlers and get quality practice. What usually happens is you might have a wrestling class at the bjj gym, which is a good start but only takes you so far. You can't really get to a collegiate level because you can't get collegiate level practice. There are judo classes for adults, so it is possibly to learn these skills. I agree that adults are certainly capable of learning wrestling, but you need an environment to do that.
2) There isn't really a concept of wrestling as a lifetime sport, so the vast majority of people wrestling are kids or college students. Everyone participating in wrestling is young and doing it for the purpose of competition, which produces a tough training environment that all wrestlers associate with "wrestling". That does produce champions, but many people who go through that pipeline leave wrestling behind pretty much done with the sport. Wrestlers coming to BJJ react in all sorts of ways, some think its cool, some don't feel like starting over again, some think its kind of rinky dink compared to the goal of winning States/NCAAs/Olympics. This relates to the first point, but you can't train random adults the same way you do kids or college team members, so there isn't a lot of coaching experience with that population.
This is simply not true. You just don’t know where to look. Also, I understand BJJ culture. I am not just some wrestler man. I train BJJ. I have for years.
For over 33 years, I have been able to walk into any local highschool and wrestle with those kids-for free. Many highschools have wrestling clubs affiliated with them and they train outside of season too with better business hours. If you watched the video, I talked about how I started my coaching experience at a wrestling club back in 1999. Many high schools have practices on weekends. Going to watch their matches helps too and supports the schools. Being there in person will teach you a lot and give you an opportunity to meet the coaches and talk to them about when they train and how you can help. They want bodies in a room. The more the merrier.
We have several wrestling clubs in the area that are open to the public. Yes, there are mostly kids, but those kids will kick BJJ adults asses. That can be a hit to the ego that many aren’t willing to take, but if they get passed that, they can definitely learn a ton. I have never in 33 years walked into a wrestling room and told I cannot wrestle there. Never. In my 40s I can walk into a highschool room or wrestling club and wrestle. In the highschool setting it is free and they are happy to have you there. There are weekend tournaments all over the place.
I have subscribers who are doing this and their wrestling has improved tremendously. They send me videos of their wrestling and I tell them what they are doing right and what they need to work on.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 I hear you, but I still think your perception of wrestling is strongly affected because you came up successfully in the system. Of course YOU don't get turned away, you are highly experienced in the sport. I'm sure you can say "I wrestled at D1 school" and everyone is welcoming. It looks different to an outsider.
You say "You just don't know where to look". That's exactly my point, I can do a google search for BJJ or Judo and find a class nearby.
Same search for wrestling brings up USA wrestling club listings which is predominantly youth clubs for ages 5-14. I'm sure these kids kick ass, but you gotta admit its a little weird for a grown man to want to come to these practices. Not really an ego thing, just more of a societal norm that kids and adults don't usually mix in sports.
Yes I do know you can sort of work your way into wrestling rooms by meeting people and going to practices. But that is still a pretty closed off system. How would someone know that they can just go to a wrestling match(first you have to find one of those), and ask a coach to join? An adult can't do that with any other high school sport in America, so why would they expect to be able to do that with wrestling?
Wrestling programs at high schools are tied to and funded by those schools for the benefit of the students there first and foremost. They are are not there so anybody who wants to learn to wrestle can wrestle. Occasionally people can get in and practice, especially experienced people or alums of the program. But Im pretty sure the school administration would put a stop to allowing larger groups of random people coming to practice with the wrestling team. God I know how many weirdos come by to try out bjj, it would be quite a distraction to have people coming by to practice with an in season team.
Not that this is gospel, but here is a reddit/r/wrestling thread basically echoing my sentiments. This comes up first when you search for "can I go practice with a high school wrestling team", so that is the perception.
www.reddit.com/r/wrestling/comments/wc6w8q/how_often_do_high_school_teams_let_outsiders/
I think something like masterswresling.com is pretty awesome, and the right place to start for an adult. But the closest place to me is 160 miles away. I would love to see more former wrestlers focus on building an awareness of wrestling as a sport that can be practiced through life. What I'm saying it is far from common knowledge that adults can get involved with wrestling. BJJ schools have to advertise and market to get people in the door to their business. I don't think this is really happens with wrestling for adults.
For the record, I am just a bjj guy, but I did run a gym for over 15 years, and I did hire a wrestling coach to come in and teach a wrestling class at the gym, it was great.
We also rent the mats to youth wrestling club that practices there, so I get to see that up close. It is mostly younger/smaller kids so people from adult BJJ don't really get involved. I love the sport of wrestling and recommend it all the time to kids, especially the kids in the bjj classes. I regret missing out on wrestling, but it just wasn't on my radar growing up. Wrestling is still a pretty niche sport in the US in many places, its easy to miss.
Completely agree with everything you said. I'm lucky that I train at a gym where the head BJJ instructor also wrestled in school, so we do a lot of wrestling in our BJJ classes. We also have an NCAA wrestler who teaches a specific wrestling class and a 4th degree black belt in Judo who teaches specific Judo classes. Justin Flores actually just did a seminar at our school recently.
I think a lot of pure BJJ folks psych themselves out thinking they can't get good at takedowns because they're going against high level wrestlers, judoka, or they're too old. You really don't need a huge arsenal of takedowns in BJJ because most BJJ grapplers just suck standing. The more open standing rules of BJJ also make takedowns easier, even against wrestlers or judoka because the rules don't limit you to just upper or lower body takedowns. I never wrestled in school, but I've been able to take down high level wrestlers and judoka in BJJ from just chaining together moves in both skillsets. Granted I've been training for a while (12+ years) and have been lucky to have wrestling specific classes at several gyms I've trained at during that time. But with only 2 years of Judo, its made a huge difference already. And for people who are in their 30s or older like me, its less wear and tear on the knees compared to always shooting doubles or singles. But funny enough, I've gotten injured way less wrestling and doing judo than I do regularly doing BJJ. I think BJJers use that as an excuse to not train takedowns, but BJJ puts way more stress and pressure on your joints and body parts on a regular basis than wrestling/judo. I really think though there are 2 main issues why wrestling, and takedowns in general, are so bad in BJJ.
1. Not every school has dedicated wrestling classes or coaches who had wrestling experience. I live in a major metro area, but some school out in the middle of nowhere may only have 1 instructor. Wrestlers are pretty easy to come by in the U.S., but then it comes down to whether or not the BJJ coach wants to hire one (whole other can of worms with the business side of BJJ).
2. The biggest issue IMO is the ruleset in BJJ. There's no incentive at all for people to get good at takedowns in BJJ because the ruleset protects sitting/pulling/jumping guard. Not only does that penalize the person who has worked on their takedowns, but it also rewards the bottom player for taking the match where they want to, with literally no effort at all. It also denies the person with takedowns the ability to end up in side control off of a takedown. Until that aspect of the ruleset is changed to encourage takedowns or punish guard pulling, you're never going to see a change in the BJJ meta. Funny enough, BJJ is the only grappling sport that encourages "willingly" going to the ground. Wrestling, Judo, and Sambo all have ground elements, but you'd be penalized if you ever willingly went to the ground in any of them.
This is also why BJJ is arguably not as good of a base for MMA as it used to be. It produces unathletic grapplers with poor takedowns, takedown defense, clinching, and scrambling abilities on the feet or ground. Wrestling, Judo, and Sambo have a mindset, skillset, and ruleset that translate over more directly to MMA. That says more about BJJ and how niche its ruleset is more than anything, IMO. I say this as a BJJ purple belt, but if BJJ really needs such a specific ruleset to claim it has the best grapplers, is that really true?
Nail on the head with so many things. Having dedicated wrestling and judo coaches is exactly why you can take people down with formal experience. Learning from experts has helped cut the fat out tremendously. Wresting is tough on my back, neck, shoulders, and elbows. I have dislocated an elbow and both shoulders in wrestling. But despite not doing judo for anywhere near as long, I have had some serious injuries. Right after collegiate wrestling I came into judo and dislocated my elbow. Then I got a major concussion. I trained on and off and then prioritized coaching wrestling again. Came back to judo in my 40s and blew out my ACL and meniscus. So very little time with judo but seriously destroyed me. Lol. But I love it man
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 Yea, Judo can definitely be hard on the body too. I think our gym does it in a safe way is why he don't have a ton of injuries. Our 4th degree Judo black belt is also a BJJ black belt and most of us cross train, so that helps so we can reduce bad movements that put pressure on the knees.
I'd also love to see more people combining all aspects of grappling like Justin Flores and the other ones you named with Judo, Wrestling, and BJJ, but I think it would require a huge change in mindset to the BJJ community. Or it would require a really dominant grappler in standup techniques in MMA, like Khabib or Islam, but from the West, to change it. Anytime anyone mentions getting better at takedowns to the BJJ community and stopping guard pulling, the defensive response is usually, "just learn to pass guard", which is a cop out and hiding behind the rules. A big portion of the BJJ community had this same mentality when leglocks started to become popular and they didn't want to train them. It took rule changes and people dominating with them for it to start changing. Now BJJ has a problem with guys not even playing guard, they're just sitting or diving straight into leg entanglements. More emphasis on takedowns would actually change a lot of that and balance out the BJJ meta again.
@JJDon5150 check out my video on rule changes. You might find that interesting
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 Thanks, I'll definitely check it out and subbed as well!
@JJDon5150 awesome man! I started a patreon (link is in the bio). I will make breakdowns on that platform. I am tired of UA-cam hitting me for copyright on all my videos I use of others to illustrate points
Here is my theory on modern jiu jitsu "meta" so to speak. For a while we were in a stage of grappling where leg entanglements and submissions were under developed relative to the rest of the game. When you started to see guys have success at a high level by exploiting peoples poor understanding of leg lock defenses, then you have a generation of athletes coming up with a huge emphasis on developing their guard and leg lock game. Now were starting to see that people have a much better understanding of how to deal with these positions so people are starting to have less and less success from playing guard position, subsequently the passing game has taken off lately. Now for the first time in a long time people are actually starting to actually contest top position much more frequently. So now we're just breaking into an era where people are starting to put a significant emphasis on takedowns and establishing top pins. I personally think the generation coming up right now or in the near future in no gi will be absolute killers on the feet and in top positions. Jiu Jitsu is a pretty young martial art but I really think it's only a matter of time before a lot of the holes in the game are filled and really becomes a much more complete submission grappling system.
This man! You get it. 100% 30+ years in the US with wrestling everywhere though. That’s probably the easiest problem to solve.
Well said but i think it's much more wider & deeper then that. In bjj you basically have 2 totally separate branches gi & no-gi & if you want to be competitive in both oh boy how much topics you need to study guard top & bottom standing gi & no-gi now it's advanced leglocks in no gi. Compare that to wrestling or judo where is no guard so 95% of your time you can devote to stand up game and ammount of time you need to invest into these topics. So at the end bjj stand up game will be worse then wrestlers obviously same as we will never see a wrestler pulling guard 😀 doesn't matter which degree bb he will have it's like telling a grown wolf to become a vegan aint gonna happen.
@@putpixel4804 I can’t make a 2hr long video. I am well aware of the differences. That’s a fallacy that wrestling is 95% stand up. It is 33% of the game in folkstyle wrestling. I said here that in the Gi, you should use more of the old judo rules. Dorian is 17 years old and kicking grown men’s asses. He is good at wrestling and Jiu Jitsu and isn’t old enough to have put in the time. Schools get actual wrestling coaches and actual judo coaches to teach during practice and the game will explode. I can teach a child from the couch to the state championship podium in like 2 years and they don’t train that hard or that many hours
Nobody is saying they need to be collegiate level. Just high level highschool is good. So, as good as boys. Not too much to ask
That Danaher clip was hilarious!
Somebody gets it!! Lol! Others sending me near death threats of DMs crying like children about it
I think the real issue is that wrestling, as well as Judo, are complete sports and disciplines in themselves. Jiu jitsu has as much to learn in it as the other two as well, so really we’re talking about doing three sports at the same time. Not to say it can’t be done, but when you take the out of shape 30 year old who hasn’t grappled before… Well it’s obvious which one most are going to focus on. This then trickles down into the whole sport I guess, even the pros.
Your videos are great man, been kicking my ass to get more standing rounds in and learning the very basics of wrestling over 6 years into jiu jitsu.
Basically BJJ schools just need a wrestling and Judo coach that teach those takedowns in the standard practice. That’s all. I know of several schools around here that do that and their guys kick everyone’s asses on their feet
I watched a video seminar on greco for bjj and it totally makes more sense to go for underhooks and wrist grabs first due to the upright stance
Yes, my college wrestling coach was the head coach of the greco Olympic and world teams and I showed several of those entries on my instructional.
Having the upright stance makes leg attacks easier too, because their head is not in position. On the instructional, I show a number of very simple and safe leg attacks from an upright stance. It’s the collar ties that make zero sense from an upright posture. You don’t collar tie in greco, because you will get duck undered and thrown. And you can’t snap them when they are upright. I cover this as well. People need to understand that while greco can sound like the best option, most are getting into a battle that they don’t understand. Anytime people try to go upper body with me, they get thrown. So going upper body gives him a solid chance against you too. In collegiate wrestling, upper body throws get reversed almost 50% of the time. So it can be risky and you better hope you’re a lot more skilled your opponents in that game. Most people aren’t and they think it’s easier. I promise you, as someone who had the best greco coach in the United States that it is certainly not easier
@@josephbreza-grappling9459can you develop your analysis of Greco and how it is not as simple?
Greco is super hard. I could probably do an analysis on my patreon. It will take me some time to find a match I really like. Or you could suggest one perhaps. The rules make greco hard, because you can’t attack the legs, and so the upright stance makes snaps near impossible. It’s why I chuckle at all the people trying to collar tie in BJJ while in an upright stance. I cover on my instructional why this doesn’t work and how you should deal with the upright stance in BJJ
Awesome video. I've been grappling for about 7 years now and have always sucked at wrestling. From my own experience it seems that wrestling is best learned by immersion, just like with leglocks. I never started to make any headway until I bit the bullet and started training with the wrestlers at the local university. Cant get the right feel wrestling with jiu jitsu guys, it ends up just being superficial knowledge...
Absolutely! You are only as good as your training partners. If they are awesome on their feet, then you will end up getting there. If they are awesome at leg locks same thing. Look at how damn good John’s guys are at leg locks. And now their top games are getting ridiculous. Meregali and Gordon are absolute beasts on top!
“Learn it right and you’ll do it right the rest of your life. Learn it wrong and you’ll spend the rest of your life trying to get it right.”
J Robinson
Thankyou coach for this video! Brilliant analysis and explanation
Thank you!
BJJ amateur here. This is such a fascinating thing to me because my only context is from my coach, who both wrestled and competed in judo separately for a long time. The emphasis on wrestling and judo is evident when watching folks in my gym compete in BJJ against other gyms that don't have coaches who have truly wrestled/done judo.
You’re definitely getting good quality instruction if he did both!! That is rare and awesome!
I'm watching Danaher's Half-Guard series. He shows Body-Locking from the Dog-Fight. I'm sure you have something to say about this.
I have an ex State Champ in my gym that seems to always suggest shelving the leg instead. I've seen Demian Maia recommend as well. Seems to fit your overall theory of staying on the Legs and finishing on the Legs.
Also, Ethan Crelinsten vs Dante Leon... Crelinsten's game-plan is to play half and come up to the Dog-Fight. He gets there like 4 times and runs right into Leon's Whizzer each time, gets launched, the wind knocked out of him, gasses, falls apart and loses the match and his title.
Bodoni tried that and got put to his back with a whizzer and inside hip position. Whomever has inside hip position from there wins. That’s why you shelf his leg, to deny him power with his whizzer that comes from that. Throwing in that far leg when the guy has a whizzer is foolish. It works on scrubs, but someone with good hips will put you right back into half guard. Of course in wrestling the stakes are worse, because now you are in a turk and going to lose back points or get pinned. I yell at Ethan for doing it! Lol! Love those guys!! They are so open to learning.
You get it man!! You see it and in short time so will everyone else
What an awesome video, thank you Joe!
Thank you
As a BJJ Black Belt and former Australian national team for Freestyle wrestling (that has NOTHING on American or many other countries wrestling pedigree but hopefully illustrates that I'm not a total newb at wrestling) I agree with like 85% of your points but (very) respectfully disagree/object on these points:
1) Languge to students. You emphasise a lot on "when we're in this position we're wrestling, when you use that move it's judo" I think that language blindsides an athlete thinking outside the ruleset and what culture they're working within. How the rules, culture, and training methods change the sport will drastically affect the details of a move. Explaining it solely as a "judo" move or a "greco" move will leave it limited to its application in jiu-jitsu or mma for that student. They will naturally gravitate to what fits their identity and feelings at the time. You are right that you need wrestling coach that understands jiu-jitsu to learn great wrestling fundamentals for jiu-jitsu as they will adapt the techniques slightly to fit a Jiu Jitsu rule set but! Just labelling this a "wrestling ankle pick" or "we're doing a BJJ guard pass" makes your athlete/student associate themselves with an identity *I am a judoka*, *I am a wrestler*, *I am a guard puller* etc. That's not helpful in regards to genuine progression because they will reject what doesn't fit "their thing" at the time.
2) Lowest hanging fruit. Right now, what John is teaching probably works for jiu-jitsu as most jiu-jitsu guys suck at takedowns, so it's solving the closest possible problem. The shot many guys are making are probably not good enough for a thumb post double on the wrong side tie. Hand fighting, head position, stance, position and footwork is all so bad so where do you start? Probably with what works on your opponent and what they will actually give you (locked hands, collar ties etc). I find most pure jiu-jitsu guys just back off and run until they can pull guard (even before they know I wrestled), the best thing to teach to be considered an amazing teacher is probably moves that work immediately. John understands that's that for his athletes and his instructionals.
3) Jiu jitsu guys are slimy on the ground. They move differently. It's more like an oil slick and less like leopard pouncing (like folkstyle guys) so committing on a shot is more dangerous. These jiu-jitsu guys move so weird, it makes sense for wrestling to look very different once it translates across. I think how half Guard in jiu-jitsu looks nowadays is a good indication for how wrestling will look in the future. Once you start seeing dynamic half guards, you'll see dynamic wrestling as that's how history has generally played out in bjj and also half guard follows very similar concepts to wrestling.
Maybe this is less of a "you're wrong" but more "I'd agree with you more if you said this" but I'd love to hear your thoughts back.
It is all grappling.
For the first point, that is just a simple way to teach people so that they can do more research. When I did judo out of college wrestling in 2001, an ankle pick is essentially the same. But you can’t do it anymore. I just tell people that from certain positions you do things you learn from wrestling so they can see others do it with variations etc etc.
My old Jiu Jitsu instructor teaches an ankle pick, but he does it like shit. In wrestling or judo, you drive over the ankle. You don’t pull it. He uses his arm strength to pull it. That shit doesn’t work with a shoe on, so your technique needs to be better. That’s sort of my point with learning the right systems from the right people.
Point 2. “Learn it right and you’ll do it right the rest of your life. Learn it wrong and you’ll spend the rest of your life trying to get it right.” - J Robinson -
Bad habits are hard to break. I teach the same way my collegiate coach taught us and he was head coach of the US Olympic and World teams. He taught the exact same way to kids. I don’t make excuses for people showing bad technique
3. I do Jiu Jitsu. It is different than with shoes on…so does that mean reaching for collar ties with the same arm and same leg forward or finger clasping has an advantage? I don’t fucking think so
for most people don't bother imporving your wrestling to such a high degree. work on wrestling defense imo. If you're in your later 20s early 30s you have to take into account that wrestling is a young persons game. Jiujitsu is dynamic, change your game to counter wrestling in various other ways. There are great competitors who aren't good wrestlers
I think learning a lot of Greco is helpful. If wrestling is a young man’s game, then why was I still crushing people-even D3 guys-half my age at 43 years old? I blew out my knee but will be back and the same thing will be true. I will still be able to be dominant on my feet. It’s because of technique and position. If everyone is defensive, then it’s boring AF. If/when rule sets change that don’t let people play guard for 10 mins, then those people are going to struggle. The United World Wrestling rule set for grappling is awesome. It will become more popular. If action isn’t happening on the mat, they stand you back up. And they penalize guard pulling. Dorian Olivarez is a high school boy and kicked the shit out of grown men in ADCC trials using primarily wrestling. BJJ starts on the feet. The days of being a ground only person will soon come to an end. From a spectator perspective, which pays the bills, it is the way to grow this sport. It will improve. I want for it to improve. And yes it is still fucking awesome when someone gets a takedown and then submitted off of that takedown. But to takedown and submit in dominant fashion will grow the shit out of this sport.
19:37 that hip thrust into placido's butt was absolutely crazy lmaooo what is he doing.
I’m still trying to figure it out…none of my wrestling coaches showed that secret move for fear of losing their jobs
Great discussion. We constantly discussed these concepts in my gym. BJJ guys love to teach what they have never been taught directly.
Hey man! You and I commented on some of the same Danaher videos and he took them down, LOL!! You wrestled at Ohio and I think we are roughly the same age. You had a great wrestling career! I am glad you have a great gym and are doing well. You’re providing top notch training to your students.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 as you know the BJJ trolls will come at you hard if you bad mouth their lord, Danaher. I need to upload on UA-cam more in 2024. Better yet I need to come out and train with you once your knee heals up if that’s cool
@BadWolfMMANashville oh man that would be awesome man!! I would love to learn from you!
I can't wait for jujitsu to actually take on systimzed wreslting. I mean i dont know if its just an east coast thing but every gym i got has a good number of former wrestlers and at least at blue belt at 170 -185 when I compete nobody is pulling gaurd. I think i mightive had one match where somone kind of did and i was happy since i have top in comp.
I think there are some barriers older atheltes often are very intimidated by stand up, i think a video on saftey practices are good, were not going to be going to to the pace of the young bucks. Ya ya break fall but more of these are games or speeed you can go. Might be helpful
Personally, I've found your underook system great since i feel i dont have to be that explosive. Although i will say this evryone has cuaght and fucken fights like hell to get me from getting my strong side underhook.
Hell yeah man! I am glad you have found a lot of success with the underhook system. I wrestled in college in the northeast. A lot of people stick around and wrestle with kids throughout the country. In fact, growing up in Florida, some of my best coaches were older dads who liked to get on the mat and wrestle around to get a workout and coach kids. People all over this page now tell me how wrestling works in the US and how you can’t wrestle as an adult. Umm that’s funny because for over 30 years, I have walked into highschool rooms unannounced and wrestled with them. I have showed up to clubs and wrestled too. I never paid a fucking cent. Of course , it doesn’t hurt that I have the look and that once they know who I am (because I essentially know everyone going back a long time and will be connected to them in one way or another) I am free to wrestle. But I know plenty of adults who wrestle for free by helping kids. If you have to pay then whatever.
The culture you are describing is what I would like to see as the norm. Former wrestlers practicing BJJ. I tell a lot of my former college and highschool teammates to do it.
I had the same experience with my first jiu jitsu instructor. He'd teach judo throws, but change them to be "more effective" because "if I lift my leg on osoto then I'll lose my balance" or "this is just made for sport to look pretty". He'd teach his variations which just don't work, he didn't understand any principle of any of the throws from positioning to kuzushi. But he has this idea that because Royce Gracie won UFC1 then he, as a bjj practitioner, can assimilate any lesser art like judo or wrestling just with a cursory glance and then improve it.
Meanwhile he's holding a right handed cross grip while stood in a left handed stance, because nobody in bjj is ever actually taught how to even hold the gi and stand up. And looks wide eyed when he finds out submissions exist in judo, cos that's how little he actually knows about it.
He'd also have lessons teaching people to stiff arm because "you can't be thrown if you do this, that's why they banned it in judo". When I started throwing everyone with tomoe nage and uchi mata he just said it's cos I'm an extraordinary exceptionally skilled judoka... I was a 17 year old green belt who'd never thrown a single person at my dojo in randori
Of course not everybody is like this, my current gym are full of very respectful people who don't think like this. But there definitely seems to be a sense of superiority in the bjj community, where people think that because bjj is obviously the best martial art ever made and revolutionised the world with its ingenious original inventions, this means being a bjj blue belt already makes you a black belt in every single martial art ever
Sounds like you are talking about my former instructor lol!! He said the same thing about the stiff arm. That’s not a good idea in judo! Pushing with a stiff arm, LoL
I’ve heard from BJJ guys to just single leg guys. I think decent judoka aren’t going to get threatened hard by the average BJJ guys takedown honestly.
@tdj2403 shit the guys who knew the old rules will KO you from there. I know first hand. The worst concussion in my life was from pushing into a judoka with a single. And the judokas on my college wrestling team bombed people who didn’t know what to do with that right away. That’s why I teach to circle front. It puts the weight on his heel. If you push, it puts the weight on his toes and if you load up on his hips from that pushing you are going for a ride
@@Urmomma5f4t sumi gaeshi it every time then get told "that single leg was so close, he just got a good reversal"
Awesome video! Thank you very much!
Thank you!
Broke this shit down like a fraction
Being a professional teacher helps. I have been a college professor for almost a decade now and taught as a graduate student as well. So just about 20 years of classroom teaching and 24 years of mat teaching. I am glad you can see that. Lots of people online are easily triggered - the see and hear what they want despite overwhelming evidence
Great content
So if you’re an adult, where do you go to learn wrestling?
If you are in the US, then you will learn good wrestling at a local high school
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 but most don’t offer adult classes do they?
@@josephbreza-grappling9459You can't just go to the local high school practice wrestling as a 35 year old man.
@baltimorebjj yes you can!! I did it into my 40s!! You just tell them you want to help. Ask the coach and they will let you. Just don’t choke or joint lock them
Those HS kids will probably kick a lot of your asses, lol
Bjj is so much different now then when the Gracie’s did it.., it’s actually very very similar to wrestling now. But I’m pretty sure bjj came from judo… and we all know that judo is like wrestling in a dress… wrestling was like the first sport ever.
I really just want to see these guy’s wrestling at the same level as elite highschool or even collegiate some day. Then that would be the shit!! AND it would really prepare people for MMA
I 1000percent agree. Such a shame because I think wrestling is equally interesting.
We need more wrestling
I think it will happen. The people financially backing this will see the writing on the wall, which is that more action brings more eyeballs to the sport which drives $$
awesome video.
Forgive my wet-blanket nature, but I think the biggest hurdle with respect to your overall goal of improving the level of wrestling in BJJ is the state of the available rulesets. People buy instructionals from those who win competitions (or coach winners), and in a game where the standing phase of grappling can be dodged entirely at either competitor's discretion you're probably always going to fill the podium with guys who spend nearly all their training time on the ground and consider wrestling and judo to be afterthoughts. I mean, they'll sell one-eyed-man-leading-the-blind DVDs about them, but that'll be about the extend of it.
This isn't even an argument that the rulesets are bad or need to be changed - if lots of people wanted 'Sambo-but-with-Americans-and-Brazilians' or '1980s-Judo-but-the-competitors-are-roided-weirdos', we'd have it in spades already. I mean, I'd train and watch those things, but I don't think normal people would. Or at least they wouldn't shell out $150/month to the gym and $217 per instructional (as *each volume* of 'Feet to the Floor' is currently priced, lmao) to BJJ Fanatics for it.
I think the rules will change. The owners of organizations like $$ and the money is on eyeballs. Eyeballs like action and action comes from scraps. This is why the rules in wrestling and judo change. The stalling and stuff drives people to take risks. A lot of noGi competitors are standing for long long periods of time before it goes to the ground. My point was that we need better wrestling to get it to the ground with a nice scrap and then apply submissions. It will happen. The culture needs to shift. The pressure will come from those who pull in the $$ just like wrestling and judo with all their crazy rule changes with out of bounds and stalling. The spectators demand action
Catch wrestlers - 👀
Been going to wrestling 2x week for about 3 months now.
I've learned so much about handfight and head position it's crazy that no one in jj taught me that before.
Now when I show up to jj class i'm doing snatch singles left and right, they don't even stand a chance... and i'm not even good! Lmao
Fuck yeah!! This proves my point here! Not surprising. I mean, I always thought judokas were better at teaching me judo than someone without judo experience, lol
But somehow I am an asshole for saying that
When Gordon wrestled Bo Nickal he got suplexed on his head, supports your point
When he wrestled Pat Downey it was worst. In the second round he tossed him in seconds like a raggdoll even though he was heavier than Pat.
To be fair, Gordon walked into that. But yeah with Downey, that was bad. And Downey was good but no Bo. Of course rule sets matter. Gordon in wrestling rules gets spanked. Anyone against Gordon in BJJ rules gets spanked. But when the argument is whether Gordon is a good wrestler, we have that answer. He couldn’t stop any of the attacks from Downey, because he had no hand/head position.
If Gordon trained with those guys for like 1 year the difference would be astounding. And that’s really my point. If Gordon wrestled in a collegiate room for a year only a few times a week, his wrestling would surpass anything John could ever tell him on his feet
@@josephbreza-grappling9459he doesn’t need to train with them…..going belly down and rubbing your dk on the mat doesn’t save you in bjj. They can suplex Gordon only to get fkn strangled lol.
Yes, rule sets matter for sure. Belly down is a freestyle and Greco thing. In folk style wrestling you have to stand up and get out or reverse the position. That position is closer to turtle. There are things to learn from all Grappling sports. The 1990s notion of one style is the master of all things is really outdated and narrowminded.
one point to make about the 50/50 mercy grips, I think it is unfair to say that John encourages this. if you listen to the standing 2 ground volume 1, john specifically states he does not advocate that grip, but understands that many people in jiu jitsu use it so you have to know how to deal with it. But agree with everything else! as someone who is trying to learn wrestling, I think the biggest hurdle is finding someone who actually knows how to wrestle (along with getting people to wrestle with you since guard pulling is encouraged). I really think you could help with this if you ever decided to create a program like submeta (Lachlan Giles teaching program), I know myself and many other people would make use of it. I know that you came out w an instructional recently, but I really think you could make a bunch more or do the submeta type of plan in order to address all the components of wrestling and make it easier for people to learn
He says it there, but watch him teach guys on instagram youtube, like the clip I showed (on my channel of him teaching and here), he goes right fucking to it. Look at the photos I showed of him doing it! And as a result, all his guys do it. My point isn’t that he invented it or anything or tells them “do this first” but like I said on that Gordon Ryan video, when you’re teaching you need to be very cognizant of what you’re doing, because they will emulate all of it. As a result, all his guys are doing it and it amounts to nothing. There’s a reason it’s illegal in wrestling. It’s stalling, because nobody can do anything. So they slap your hand off. Lachlan generously offered that, but I can’t for a while with this dumb injury. I do like my working relationship with Jordan Preisinger. He is such an incredible person. I will visit him at least once year until I cannot do this anymore, because he is incredible as a person and coach
If you live in the US, you can go to any local highschool and their wrestling will likely be better than anyone you’re training with
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 for real, I’ll defo look into it (I used to go the wrestling club at my undergrad institution and that was so good, I felt like I was improving). Something I have noticed too, it’s also hard to find an actual good jiu jitsu gym who teaches modern no gi techniques/has plenty of no gi classes. Honestly, all of the teaching/culture of learning in Jiu jitsu is terrible, not just in the stand up department. Finding a school w good no gi and wrestling is a dream at this point lmao
Brandon reed, micheal traso, john marsh, jflow
Some really good points, a bit salty though too.
Look up what I do for a living. I am literally an expert in salt, lol!! Perception is in the eye of the beholder. Not salty at all, I just want to help and talk with conviction. Some perceive me as having fun and some cry to themselves on their drive hole because of something I said. Lol
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 project much?
In gi it's Judo/Jujutsu, no gi it's submission wrestling. Simple as.
i love your information you provide and your channel i learn alot mysefl for wrestling . I was wodnering whats your take on rutotolo vs nolf ? ruotolo has a bizzare wrestling lets say game jiu jitsu based maybe i dont know amd suprsingly did so well on the standing game against nolf whos is decorated wrestler .I was wondering whats your insigth on why he did so well ?
I am probably going to do some videos on some CJI and ADCC matches, but on patreon, since this platform hits me for copyright infringement constantly. If the only videos that haven’t been flagged are my own technique videos and even was hit from music, which is actually free use. So it’s unbelievably annoying to make breakdowns on here.
The answer to your question regarding Nolf and Ruotolo is not a few sentences. They have their strengths and the rules of the game play into this bigtime
Would love to get your thoughts on Izaak michell wrestling, He has beautiful BJJ and his standup game is one of the best i've seen in no-gi. he has trained under Jakub Kacenak (competed internationally for Slovakia)
I need to take a good look at him. I think his match with Vagner last year at ADCC showcased his scrambling ability. He and Vagner were both chasing the waist-something in wrestling we discourage because a person can scramble when you’re on the waist because their legs are free. Shut down the legs and you shut down the scramble to a guard pass. This is important in freestyle, because contrary to what most people think, we use “elevators” or butterfly hooks to elevate people and score back exposure. Wrap up the legs and it’s over. So, basic pressure passing works in wrestling too. I have seen him do a lot of collar tie battles too. I need good footage where someone is confident in his wrestling and then I can form an opinion on it. I think he has better head position than most people. I also think his superpower is his gas tank. Holy crap that guy is in phenomenal shape
thanks for the reply, it has given me lots to think about. As for Izaak you are spot on about his conditiong truly a tank in the world of BJJ. His ADCC match with vagner definitely showed some inexperience (raised his opponenets hand before the offical results in a very close match) But watching his ADCC trials run for the ADCC 2024 was quite impressive ua-cam.com/video/uw7vEFoYi8s/v-deo.html I think you would find a mixture of postives and negatives to flag him for, especially in the final where he resorted to more collar ties and 50/50 grips. @@josephbreza-grappling9459
See there is a major difference in Greco-Roman wrestling, Olympic freestyle, wrestling for submission only matches and also mma. Your set ups and take downs in traditional wrestling you don't have to worry about being submitted or getting hit with a strike. Wrestling has way too many rules. Like locked hands, dangerous position resets, doesn't allow all take down techniques. See while submission grappling incorporates all forms off grappling, wrestling only focuses on take downs. So comparing the easiest and basic form of grappling to the most advance form, of course there is going to be a big difference in your take down shots if there is a chance you can get submitted or like wrestling getting your take down stuffed, then trying to get back to a re shot or back to your feet without getting submitted also plays a huge significance on where your hand placement can be due to the fact you have to protect against submissions. Guys that have excellent wrestling with no submission grappling experience get guillotined, Kimura locked on them or simply a triangle choke. Although we do have a couple wrestlers come and train at our gym. I think they wrestled for Penn State so I don't know if they have credentials like this guy but a couples guys named Jason Nolf, and Gino Morelli. They wrestled for guy who was undefeated in high school state of Utah, undefeated in college division 1 wrestling at Iowa state, Olympic gold medalist and the best coach Penn State has had. But the wrestling were getting taught I guess isn't that good.
Bro, no need to be so defensive and sarcastic . If your bjj/mma gym gets its takedown instruction from the likes of Jason Nolf, that's exactly what Breza is hoping happens! People learning wrestling techniques from actual high level wrestlers.
As for all those "major differences" you talk about that make wrestling techniques in applicable in bjj, I agree with Breza that the differences are overblown, and more importantly wrestling fundamentals remain.
If bjj/mma takedowns are so different, why are doubles and singles the most common takedowns in bjj and mma? Oh wait, the type of double leg or single leg must be vastly different to work in bjj, right? Okay, please show me a video of a high level bjj double leg or single leg in competition, and point out how it is different from a good wrestling double/single.
As Breza says here, yes there are some things you need to be aware of when doing takedowns for bjj, but the issues are relatively minor. There are a few things that are legit in wrestling that you may try to avoid in bjj. However, If something is considered bad technique in wrestling, the odds that it is truly good technique in bjj is highly unlikely. But I'm open to hearing any examples.
That is awesome if you’re getting consistent instruction from those guys. This video doesn’t apply to you. You’ll learn a lot in that room. If they are drop ins, you’ll learn something but not like you would if they were regulars. Pretty much the point of my video. You don’t learn Jiu Jitsu in a day or two from good Jiujiteiros. Same applies to wrestling or any other grappling or martial art.
Exactly, nobody ever said that rulesets and objectives don’t matter. There are only so many ways to control someone. The guillotine is so over blown. I have been guillotined like 3x in 4 years and train with some big tough guys with WAY more BJJ experience. Shooting while looking at the floor and then not reacting is what gets you guillotined. It really isn’t that high percentage finish. I can’t remember the last time I saw one honestly and that is with people taking shitty shots
I think Galvao talks in his instructional that these mercy grips are trash and advocates to not use it
I think Galvao is a pretty good wrestler. I saw him teaching single leg run the pipe offense and was like shit this guy learned from a wrestler, because his details about palm down grip on the leg and stuff was definitely what is taught by good coaches.
You should react to Dorian olivarez. He’s a wrestler who is also really good at jiu jitsu who just won adcc trials
I have commented on this thread about him. He is a boy who destroyed men on steroids using aggressive wrestling. I was worried about him coming up out of the shot to the waist at ADCC but he was getting away with it. At super32 that same thing got him lat dropped and pinned. He is definitely a high level wrestler, but goes to show you there are kids who are better!! He would likely kill them in BJJ though. I hope he stays in BJJ. I heard he wants to go MMA.
I don't necessarily disagree, but would say that Danaher's take down methods and students are good enough to win jiu jitsu championships (as of right now) . The only reason they need wrestling, judo, or even leg locks is to win BJJ championships. Now, it may be that it's b/c everyone they face is sorry at wrestling, but it's not their fault the bar is so low. Danaher came in and did what he needed as of 2023 in takedowns - win in BJJ. Is it the best wrestling no, but mission accomplished (and extremely well). I come from a wrestling background, and agree with you on all your wrestling points. It makes sense absolute sense to learn from wrestlers. No way they will take down a wrestler or be champion wrestlers with the current level, but again they don't have too unless these upcoming young athletes force them too, which I think is going to be soon.
I just want it to evolve and will do so faster with actual wrestling coaches. I can take a kid who is brand new to wrestling and turn him into a state champion with much less time and WAY fewer training hours. And the kids they are wrestling are much better.
As a coach, I can tell you it is MUCH easier to coach heavyweights to titles than little guys. All of John’s successful guys are big. Their fundamentals are not there.
Now, I am fully aware that John really wants wrestling to improve-he said so to Benardo on a long format video of them having a conversation. I think it’s good that he wants to do it. But a wrestling coach can help make that happen faster. If he allowed a legitimate wrestling coach to work with him and the team, it would dramatically improve the sport. He would just need to let go a little and admit it’s not his area of expertise. I hope they get a legitimate wrestling coach, because then others will have to do the same thing. This is what I want more than anything. There are so many amazing wrestlers out there and amazing wrestling coaches
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 You are absolutely correct about the wrestling, I believe he does consult Judokas for Judo, not sure about wrestling (although some Penn State studs did come to see him recently). Two options I see 1) You work with the New Wave Team (is that bridge burned haha?!?!) 2) Coaches like you need to raise up BJJ champions with a strong wrestling background. My guess is that with BJJs rise, former D1 wrestlers are just gonna come in and put the hurt on. I would say, Nicky Rod is a good case in point. He was a D3 college wrestler. Thank you for your time and thank you for your videos. Only suggestion I would have good sir, is a video for older grapplers who are hobbyists. Most of us aren't elite competitors but want to incorporate wrestling without getting hurt. Bernardo and Danaher have multiple vids like that and would love to hear your take on how to incorporate wrestling for us who are over 40 and are hobbyists. Also another big difference between my time in wrestling in HS and BJJ, is that I hardly wrestled anyone over 10 - 15 lbs way back then, but in BJJ you regularly have a 30 - 40 lbs weight gap and now 10-20 year age gap. Thanks again for the interaction!
@johnpark7662 all good points. Visiting wrestlers to New Wave isn’t going to fix their issues. They need consistent training from those guys. In other words dedicated wrestling coaches, who work with these guys at least a few days a week.
I show a lot on my instructional that is good for older guys. After all, I am 44 years old. I think greco and these post knee pull singles are going to be super easy until people adopt a legitimate stance.
I also get the age and size thing. Most guys are smaller and heavier than me. I train more in the Gi, so I can use my old man grip strength to even the playing field, lol
Out wrestling jiujitsu guys isn't sone big flex. Danahers stuff is straight up mediocre. That is how bad everyone else is.
This isn’t directly related to the topic of the video, but what’s your take on the whole groundwork element of folkstyle wrestling (rides, pins, cradles, reversals, etc) for self defence, especially against a larger, resisting assailant? How does it compare to and/or complement BJJ for this specific purpose? Perhaps an in-depth look into this could be a topic for a future video as well. I am asking because from my perspective at least, someone who wants to learn wrestling as an adult and never got the chance to wrestle in a scholastic system would often place the self defence applications of the art high on their priority list.
It’s huge man. People in BJJ often refer to wrestling as stand up, but that’s only 33% of folkstyle wrestling. In wrestling you learn to train on bottom and on top so that you know what to do from there. Avoiding turtle because it’s considered dangerous won’t help you when someone does get your back. I have a number of videos showing classic wrestling escapes in BJJ and I cover more on my instructional, such as the quad pod and concepts from those positions
I’ve found that i can wrestle decently against some opponents in competition, but when I come across someone who has D1/D2 experience i just get cooked. I have a much better guard than I do wrestling, and it generally works better against these wrestlers. Strategically is it smarter for me to put more stock in my guard as opposed to attempting to play skill catch up in the standing position against these guys who have wrestled their whole life? I enjoy wrestling but don’t enjoy getting my face slammed through the planet by the guys who know what they’re doing.
If you learn how to have good head and hand positioning, then you can control how it goes to the ground better for guard. If someone is giant and a decent wrestler, I’d rather be in guard, because then I can use the strength of my legs. There’s always strategies to consider
Jiu jitsu guys really dislike wrestling and don't want to be told what to do from a wrestler who isn't as good of a jiu jitsu player as them.
Lol!! Yes well they get their opportunities to do what they want when it gets to the floor, that is for sure. I’ve rolled with some guys who have extremely tough guards and attack relentlessly. My best option is to get it to the ground in a goos position so they can’t have the grips they want. When I first started, a lot of the purple and brown belts didn’t like an old D1 wrestler come in and make them have to work hard, but after some mutual respect, we taught each other a lot. That is how it should be. I would do something while we were rolling and they were like what the hell was that. I would show them and then the same was true for me. We all benefited from each other
The interlocking fingers grip fight never made sense to me. Why would we both give up our hands unless the goal was to torque fingers and hope it tires out the other person's grip? I wonder if John is relying on his guys having better grip strength from their weightlifting. Gas their grips, then start playing your game?
I think it’s a stalling tactic and naivety. Everything he has learned about wrestling is from watching. You see international guys do it, but that’s because they want to control the clock after scoring. It’s easy to lose points fast in freestyle. And the referees are aware of it and smack your hands or stop the action and warn you. This is because no offense can come from it. But if you watch Danaher teach, he goes right to it and then to inside control. Absolutely not happening man. You give me your fingers like that and I decide when you get them back and in what shape you get them back. The reason for that is if I try to take them out, you can really break them bad when they are halfway out. So better to go through the out of bounds then to try to free them yourself
I realized from this that I'm the guy who's trying to force collar ties. Do you have any videos or tips on how to make "first contact"? My go to has been to collar tie with my rear hand and try to punch an underhook through with my other hand. Other than that, I don't really have a plan for what grips to first take. Great video btw.
That is the first part of my instructional. I think Jordan is running a special now. Type in reddit25 for 25% off.
I wanted to make that very clear upfront so that people can master stance and grip fighting to maximize their efficacy and efficiency.
It’s not your fault that you’re doing that. The best BJJ guys in the world are doing it because they’re being taught that from their coaches who have no wrestling experience. More than that, lot of wrestling coaches don’t have Greco experience. Watch some greco on UA-cam and you’ll see the stances are the same but they don’t reach for collar ties. They work on getting past the hands-the second line of defense, since their head is already out of position.
My collegiate wrestling coach was head coach of the Greco world and Greco Olympic team, so I know a little Greco because we worked on it a lot, particularly in the off-season.
I think you're overlooking why the high level jiu jitsu matches start with the repeated collar tie battle - it's because it is extremely effort-efficient to repeat. You can't explode into duck under torqued-body attempts 9 times in a row in the first minutes at full speed and then win the ground battle against someone who is fresh and hasn't done that even once.
The efficiency game is unfortunately the 'play to win' optimal strategy. If, in JJ, you end up on the ground in any position you can work from, then the takedown doesn't have to be explosive and dominant. So energy spent to do that is only beneficial if the rule set encourages it or if the 'look' at the takedown is extremely advantageous and you can see a clear path to back position.
I think you’re overlooking how much I train and understand Jiu Jitsu. Like folkstyle wrestling, you control your opponent after a takedown. If anything, you can stall way more in BJJ, because the guard/top position is far more efficient than the top/bottom game in wrestling. I was a D1 collegiate wrestler. Matches often went 10 mins with overtimes. What we are seeing is a lack of handfighting skills and inherent laziness that has been stated by several of the OGs in BJJ. People loved watching Marcelo Garcia, because he was always attacking and not playing a lazy game
Where is the link to your instructional? Thanks
wrestlingforbjj.com
Thank you!
Its the rulesets. There's basically zero reason to spend time on stand up wrestling when guard pulling exists. Even Adcc can be easily gamed to essentially guard pull. That's about it. These guys can learn to wrestle its just not worth it except maybe the top end weight classes who all want to be on top. I can go against Jordan Borroughs and by simply sitting on my ass in 1 second flat, negate all that advantage on feet. Or adcc rules take the laziest shot into a failed td into guard pull. Or Gordon style just give him a single and he has to take me down in no points period.
John is definitely putting a lot time into teaching his guys stand up. You are right about the ADCC format. It doesn’t bring out the wrestling as much as it could/should. The united world grappling rule set is the shit. Quintet is also good. The industry will cater to the eyeballs on the sport and it will get more eye balls with more scraps. I would be shocked if we don’t see wrestling becoming a bigger part of the game. Gordon, Meregali, the Myao brothers and a few others are definitely dangerous no matter what. To have any chance of beating any of them would be getting past their guard with a takedown before they pull guard, because their damn guards are so good. The United world grappling rule set penalizes for letting yourself get pushed out of bounds, pulling guard, and stands you back up when there’s nothing going on from guard. We will gain spectators from a more aggressive sport of taking people to the ground quickly and working hard to submit them quickly. This will have a larger draw of athletes to the sport as well. And from a self defense perspective, butt scooting isn’t a great idea. It will evolve. I hope so, because BJJ has so much potential to be the most exciting grappling art on the planet
@josephbreza-grappling9459 I agree that out of bound points and shot clock would do a huge amount to make things better. Guys pretending to guard pass and killing the clock is a huge problem too. Thank you for your reply and content!
The ruleset is a reason why takedowns haven't been prioritized by competitors, but it's not a good reason/excuse for accepting sub-par instruction. Like if college wrestling suddenly allowed chokes, I wouldn't go to John Smith or Cael Sanderson to show me how to do a d'arce. To whatever extent BJJers want to learn takedowns (and it's slowly becoming more important and sought out) they'll be better off when they draw from good technique sources.
@a0kca1p I agree. But I also think they would seek out more accomplished instruction if they prioritized wrestling more. New Wave can afford bringing in a world class wrestler. Danaher, Gordon, and soon Meregali are easily multimillionaires and wrestlers unfortunately aren't the most well paid athletes around.
Personally, I'd rather NOT prioritize wrestling. Let wrestlers wrestle and BJJ guys go at it on the ground. That way we advance both styles. We wouldn't see the same amount of progress in technique on the ground if athletes had to split their time. In my opinion. There's only so much training time, even if you're a Miyao and train 12 hours a day every day. We can figure out rules that encourage action on the ground, whether that's even more aggressive stalling calls, ways to force guys down after short period of inactivity on feet, better OT rules, whatever.
The current nogi situation where we get guys spending 13 minutes of a 15 minute match exchanging collar ties is just not it. It's worse than a stalled ground fight. 100% of the audience for BJJ is people who do BJJ and its never going to be any different. We should give them BJJ and not bad wrestling. A flo grappling sub gives you access to flo wrestling. If you want good wrestling you can get it.
The reason they collar tie for 13 mins is because their wrestling sucks. Wrestling matches are half that time and have multiple takedowns and ground work-and like I said on the video, they are better at takedown defense. The goal would be to get the fight to the ground in good position (not in someone’s full guard) and threaten submissions immediately. That would draw in more viewers who like wrestling and MMA because it’s exciting
@Breza-grappling what do you think about Michael Pixleys wrestling for jiu jitsu style that he teaches?
I haven’t watched a lot of what he teaches but he is a bad ass mofo
He is a bad ass. He likes to use snap downs from collar ties or when they tie him and he is using an upright posture. That's usualy what he teaches and advocates. There is a lot of footage in youtube of him teaching.
He understands push pull very well. That is what people aren’t doing well. Like I said on the video, if you want to do it, you have to sell it. If most people knew how to do it, I wouldn’t have made this video. They are grabbing the head and people are stiffening up. His stance is 1000x better than anyone I mentioned on this video also
How much do the rules and match length affect the stance too though? Same with how they wrestle? Since the match lengths are 10-15 minutes I always figured the upright stance happened cause how tiring it can be in a proper low wrestling stance to 10-20 minutes straight.
I've really appreciated your content! Its super informative.
Yeah, I have heard Danaher and Gordon say that. I don’t buy that shit at all. I am 44 and can stay in a good stance for shark bait rounds. Those guys say that the stance for 10 mins isn’t doable, but can do 45min matches or no time limit? Please.
In college the regulation time is 7 mins. If the score is tied, then there is overtime 1 min. If no score there are two 30second tie breakers. Depending on the year, those tie breakers continue until someone scores. And then the other guy has a chance to score. So, just going to tie breakers alone is 9 mins. And it can go on longer (depending on the year and rules.
The pace of wrestling is MUCH higher than BJJ, so I don’t buy that shit at all. There were some guys like Marcello Garcia, who went after you like a wrestling pace, but most of BJJ is inherently lazy. I am not complaining about it. At my age, I can do a 10min BJJ matches back to back, but would literally die in a single 7 min college match. It’s the pace, not the stance. I stand the same way in BJJ and can wrestle forever on my feet in BJJ. It’s because the attacks and handfighting aren’t sophisticated enough yet so that you need a good wrestling stance. But mark my words-that day is coming. People will wrestle with a more traditional stance, because the attacks will require it. And no that is not going to be the thing that makes people tired. The stance in BJJ most likely comes from Judo when people were first in the Gi. These guys aren’t going to wrestle for 20mins. Someone is pulling guard. And if they fo wrestle for 20mins it will be slow and boring AF like the last Gordon vs Pena match
Let’s put it this way…if I were to go over to the University of Michigan’s collegiate wrestling room and stand in a BJJ stance, I would get taken down in 5s. BJJ people stand that way because they can. But they won’t for long. Wrestling is coming to BJJ in a strong way. I see it
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 I train at AOJ and they already have a dedicated wrestling coach every single day for the kids. Other people train at clubs, like myself, with a college wrestling coach.
Have you watched Craig Jones's videos on wrestling in both the context of jiu-jitsu & MMA? If you have, what comments might you make about how he approaches these topics? He has had a great influence on many people's styles with his instructionals, coaching at B-Team, and influence with Volkanovski in MMA.
Additionally, he has adapted ( & admittedly stolen) many wrestling techniques from all sorts of styles to work in a jiu-jitsu context such as leg riding, turtle attacks, and even things such as octopus guard.
I haven’t. What people call octopus guard is an extremely common position in scholastic wrestling for control of the back. I like Craig a lot. He applies what he learns and tries it out to see its efficacy. Not afraid to break the mold
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 Thanks for the answer! I think Craig is getting a lot of attention for both his personality and training with Volkanovski outside of jiu-jitsu. He has a very cerebral approach to learning that isn't as intricate and complicated as the systems of Danaher (not saying they aren't effective, rather they are dense to comprehend at times).
If you could do a video on the octopus guard position in terms of wrestling once you heal up or do an analysis on it that would be great. Thanks again! Your content has gotten me to develop into a not-horrible wrestler ... especially with the heuristic changes in both stance and hand fighting.
Bjj needs ippons or higher pts for takedowns and penalties for guard pulling for people to care or learn takedowns
I feel like ippon would be terrible for jiujitsu bc there are so many things a person can do to fight back from the bottom.
I do agree take downs should be incentivized more.
I also believe there needs to be points for pushing an opponent out of the ring. This will incentivize more meaningful stand up.
I like the United World Wrestling ruleset for grappling. It’s like a combo of international wrestling and BJJ. They award push out stalling points. You get penalized for guard pulling. They break up the action and stand up if nothing is happening on the ground. Etc. I don’t think the Ippon would help. As much as I loved the touch fall (essentially ippon in wrestling), BJJ is a ground sport, so taking down someone to their back shouldn’t end the match. If it was high amplitude, I am definitely in favor of awarding high points. I have thought about doing a video on this…maybe I can do this over break
There are definitely ways of pulling guard offensively into sweeps and leg attacks. Combining that with some wrestling might be interesting and more entertaining than just sitting guard.
@dfjr6525 hell yes! In the middle of a scramble, someone could drop to single ashi and threaten my legs. With more of a aggressive mentality-like marcello and meregali-BJJ should take off as the most exciting spectator sport. I really want to see the day that shit happens
Any general thoughts on judo for BJJ? Worth it for nogi? Specifically freestyle judo
I would refer you to JFlo on that one. That man is awesome. I think he does it better than anyone, because a lot of judokas in BJJ footsweep but then stand there. JFlo follows you to the ground and remains in control. He reminds me a lot of my judoka friends on my collegiate team. They used Judoka very effectively in wrestling and maintained control. Because, there are plenty of ways to control people to the ground using Judo. John shows plenty of them actually
@josephbreza-grappling9459 thanks pretty much exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks for the reply!
Can you make a video at some point on how you see you would modify your wrestling for the gi?
Would love to see your thoughts on it
I don’t think I am qualified to do that. My judo coaches are far more qualified as they did the old judo rules. They know so much that I often feel clueless around them
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 I understand, though I think you'd probably still have some interesting insights on the subject however small you think they are
Either way your videos are always very helpful material in helping me understand wrestling more and more
@PaladinJackal well for what it’s worth, I do outside single with a collar grip. Works like a sweep single, but better
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 I thought I might be onto something with that haha
I am binging yours single and double leg set ups videos right at the time of upload. What you think couch about forbiding going backwards during wrestling sparring? Or should I just get better at ,,chasing" opponents? In the jiujitsu setting feels like everyone runs away and its so frustrating.
There’s no stalling in BJJ, so people can back up and it’s why it’s so fucking boring. Pena was hit for stalling 7x against Meregali. In wrestling, 5x and you’re disqualified. Don’t chase! Someone good will time you coming in, drop their level, and will be deep on the shot. Look at my video on stalling opponents. I also cover this on my instructional.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 Yeah. Everybody thinks too much about perfect ruleset, when in reality for me the main problem is stalling in the standing position. For me ADCC ruleset with heavy and strict stalling penalties in standing position woud be as good as it gets in terms of submission grappling.
What I learned was to look for the underhook. Also try foot sweeps even if you dont sweep them, it can help to get a snatch single when elevating their foot with yours.
OK please stop. In BJJ high level elite comp, grapplers arent playing, they're aiming for their names to be registered on a hall of fame list, and their name to be remembered for ages. So for many of em, even the best ones, their BJJ goes out the window. Now go roll with Pena on his turf/school and watch the beauty of his jiujitsu being displayed.
Jiujitsu guys say they like to compete, but its the biggest lie ever portrayed cause they hate everything about comp. All they want is their name to be uphold high and worshiped.@@josephbreza-grappling9459
@K_x_P nice!
Because it's disincentivized.
What do you think would incentivize athletes to get better in the standup? Right now, in the vast majority of rulesets, people just don't think it's worth the work for 2 points. We are starting to see extremely tight top games with the bodylock passing and forcing half guard to pass as a way to counter leglockers. With better top players comes the need for the ability to get to and stay in top position. But in the lower weight classes it looks like guard is still the meta. Maybe that's because the lower weight classes have less ability to use gravity to their advantage but I don't know. I don't know if scoring takedowns higher will fix the problem. I don't like penalizing guard pulling because I think it is a valid strategy. I would LOVE to see something similar to a freestyle pushout rule. Controlling not just your opponent, but the space in which you are grappling is definitely an under-appreciated skill that also translates well to MMA. I know its difficult to call stalling on the ground because there are lots of small adjustments that have to be made and they take time to get right. Its so easy to call stalling in the standup though. Plenty of athletes admit to stalling in the standup as part of their strategy for ADCC. Do you think a pushout rule and heavier stalling penalties to force action will make athletes learn the intricacies of wrestling or do you think something else could do it?
Check out the united world wrestling rules for grappling. It’s a combination of international wrestling rules, judo, and Jiu Jitsu. Push out points, guard pull penalties, if nothing is happening from guard, you get stood back up. I think guard pulling has its advantages. Myao had pulled guard, got penalized, and still won. Because his guard is incredible. If you takedown to a bodylock, you’re already have momentum to pass. I think the change is coming, because the spectators want action. Spectators drive the revenue. Any business will give the customers what they want. If we are ready for it and have good stances and good handfighting skills, we are ready for the new meta
Would love to get your breakdown of the recent AIGA event specifically the wrestling of Izaak Michell, Mica Galvao, & Kennedy Maciel
I didn’t see Izaak on that card. I just watched this:
ua-cam.com/video/cUZtQseNxVg/v-deo.htmlsi=qK3Juwai9FCBcCuE
Mica’s sasae was awesome. The Kennedy vs Sousa match had some nice exchanges. Kennedy’s outside single mechanics were great.
All of those guys do well once it gets to a scramble, but good wrestling is actually about preventing a scramble with good handfighting, deception, and shot mechanics. I saw A LOT of poor handfighting. Lots of what I talked about-collar ties on upright opponents and 50/50 hand clasping. I don’t expect these things to change overnight. I do think head position looked better in these matches. There wasn’t a lot of ear to ear collar ties. That is a step in the right direction. However they would be better off with inside control positions-push to push pull creating angles, etc
I watched this match with Izzak. I gather this is what you were referring to. Much better wrestling here than I saw otherwise
ua-cam.com/video/mm3LjAxujsM/v-deo.htmlsi=CA2tjYB__b5ug1qj
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 Yessir those are the matches. I was really impressed with the performances of each guy i listed on the feet and thought you might enjoy them. That Wrestle Jitsu game is a pleasure to watch at the highest levels.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459what grade would you give it?
@@josephbreza-grappling9459are there any Bjj guys you would advise us to look at? Just bought your instructional
It’s a conspiracy theory, but since BJJ has blown up in the hobbyist sphere I think a lot of places are hesitant to actually incorporate genuine wrestling and Judo out of fear it will drive membership down. I know of very, very few BJJ guys that are okay with falling down and know at least of 3 gyms that will pack 30 dudes into a space really built for like 12.
BJJ would benefit greatly from expert guidance, but I have my suspicions that it’s marketing model would have to be significantly adjusted.
Yup. It requires more space too that a lot of gyms don't have. That's story with my gym.
You do have a very good point. The school I was at was a hobbyist school and my coach was afraid of people getting hurt. I always thought that was ironic though, because it’s like “takedowns are gonna get you hurt. Oh, here’s how you break somebody’s leg. Here’s how you break somebody’s arm. Here’s how you choke somebody unconscious..” I have honestly been hurt in a short time span in Brazilian jujitsu a lot. And my school was primarily newaza. I’m hoping that my channel will have a wide enough audience so that it can help people who want to improve their wrestling in a competitive situation. In the sport of wrestling, there is not a hobbyist point of view. You’re either not tough enough to do it and need to toughen up or you’re tough and you bang heads were tough guys.
I like that jujitsu is an easier pace, because I’m old now and if I wanna still roll I pretty much have to do it over hardcore wrestling. There’s a reason why I wrestle with BJJ guys. I am not wrestling over at the university of Michigan for a reason. Too old for that pace-it was hard 23 years ago.
@armedjoy3045 our HS wrestling room was small with over 70 wrestlers. Round robin battles and learning mat awareness. Definitely important. Keeps you safe
I can't tell if this is you just trolling BJJ guys but, if jiu-jitsu guys are so bad at wrestling why don't wrestlers get even close to winning addc or IBJJF events? Why wouldn't the NCAA wrestlers show up and win easy money at these events?
Because the best people pull guard…
It’s just like how early UFC fighters could get by with subpar striking because they had good wrestling, BJJ guys can get away with bad wrestling because they have excellent submissions. Also in Adcc the entire first half of the match is basically sub only, so if you’re a great leg locker for example and can submit fast enough you won’t even have to wrestle.
Because 1. JJ does not pay.
2. You can not win a Jiu Jitsu competition without knowing jiu jitsu. You'll get leg locked under 1 minute by anyone that pulls guard
I don’t troll. This is not a wrestling issue better than Jiu Jitsu video. If you hear that than there’s nothing I can say or do to help you learn more about how various forms of grappling can compliment each other. How many NCAA champions have entered ADCC? I only know of Matt Hughes and he wasn’t an NCAA champion but did pretty well.
Dorian Olivarez, a high school boy beat the shit out grown men using primary wrestling. Most of us need a blend to do well. Good wrestling will get the match to the ground in a dominant fashion so that jiu jitsu can take over
The ol’ 1990s argument of the styles is still alive and well…and yet that isn’t what I am doing, since I do wrestling, judo, and jiu jitsu. But yet there’s always people coming at me thinking that I am just some wrestler trolling Jiu Jitsu people. So I am trolling myself? Because that’s literally my primary grappling style now. Lol
Hey man watching your videos got me to put my son in club wrestling and I tag along to train too. Got a few things I’ve been thinking about.
- I’ve developed some nice set ups for high C in the wrestling room that I can hit on high school wrestlers, meaning I can get them all the time on the avg bjj guy. I keep hearing that high c is terrible bc of the threat of guillotine. While it’s true that I’ve been guillotined off a high C attempt, how is this any worse than the double leg, which everyone loves? Also… is there a way to shoot high c and negate the threat of chokes? I found a move I’m actually a little good at and don’t want to abandon it.
- just a general note, I feel push pull works less in bjj standup bc bjj guys are fine to not push back at all or engage in the stand up battle in any way. It’s annoying as hell bc I’ve learned a little bit of wrestling but if the guy doesn’t want to engage there’s literally nothing stopping him.
- I thought my son was going to get eaten alive in his first wrestling matches but he’s won his first 7 straight. He capitalizes on bad shots by sprawling, controlling head, and going behind. I told him that will work for now but there’s going to be a guy with a sharper shot or better chain wrestling that’s going to take your lunch money. Told him he needs offense that is at least good enough to be a believable threat. He just wants to win by sprawling but it keeps working… what do I do? Haha
- also I learned from your videos not to snap with the lead hand and I noticed him doing that all of the sudden warming up at his last event. I told him not to do that because then there’s nothing in between his opponent and his leg. He did it anyway and his opponent got in on a single. I felt very smart being able to tell the future like that.
Thanks bud. Long read. Sorry. I love your content. I’m out with a herniated disc surgery so I feel your pain kind of.
I covered some of the way to stop the guillotine from the HC on my instructional and on the channel. The choke comes from the back posture. I think the HC requires more pushing than a single, and yes that is an issue you are running into. It looks like they are doing a good job hitting people for stalling in some formats. In wrestling of course you will get DQ’ed for 5 stalling calls. Pena had 7 negative points against Meregali, which is absurd. Why show up if you don’t want to go at it?
The good thing is that a lot of your son’s habits will work themselves out, because the wrestling community knows these things and aren’t afraid to say it. Sounds like he has a solid stance and is frustrating people into shooting without getting past his head and hands, which is AWESOME!! Good!! If he learns how to get the right ties (grips we call them ties) and move people out of position well, then all the shots will be easy and that’s what you want. Get him good at the elbow pass. I have good angles to see it on the instructional. It’s awesome and he can do it off people’s shots too, which really opens things up. Now the HC in your case is completely non threatening, because the choking arm is gone. Same thing with the underhook, which is also on the instructional. My best shots in college came off that underhook to HC. I was good at getting the underhook from both sides, but prefer different systems from the other side. You will see that on the instructional that I run more of a greco like system from the right arm and HC shot combinations off the left arm!!
@@josephbreza-grappling9459that’s a good point about the elbow… I find myself in Russian 2 on 1 all the time. I feel there is something there being able to get the elbow way out of position and then shooting high c from that. Might workshop it when I’m healthy.
Only problem is that the leg I want is usually back in 2 on 1
You can elbow pass off that like Terry Brands teaches. Once you block it off with your head, he will square up and hand you a trap arm double
I think it's as simple as judo and wrestling are best learned when you're young. Competitive kids are logging years of six day a week practices, with 15, 20, 25+ hours of practice a week starting from age 7 or 8. And that's if they're not becoming serious international competitors. They'll have fought hundreds if not thousands of competitive matches by the time they're 18. No one starting in their 20's is catching up to that or building that innate sense on their feet. I have yet to see the competitive youth purple belt in judo who isn't significantly better than any adult brown belt. Folks are making beginner mistakes because they're beginners. In short, people coming in later seem low level in these skills because they are.
That’s not really true. Highschool wrestlers are getting like 10hrs a week of practice. 2hrs a day-5days a week. 6 days at the absolute max but generally not, because at least one day a week will be a dual meet-which is literally 6mins of wrestling for the entire day.
The highschool athletic commission prevent them from having too much practice time (at least they did).
I have taught adult jujitsu guys some basic stand-up, and they smoke people in competition. This is like 1 day a week for an hour. Nobody is saying that they need to be at an NCAA level. They are currently at a JV level. All they need is to be at a competent highschool level. You can’t defend the notion that having poor fundamentals is because they started late. With all due respect- and I mean that-that is a poorly constructed argument.
They have bad instruction and it’s leading to bad wrestling. If the highschool coaches were coaching these world class athletes to wrestle, they would be much much further along
You can't teach everything. And that's the problem with bjj coacher. Even a catch wrestler, where takedowns and submissions are their specialty, has no room teaching open guard in the gi (spider guard, worm guard, de la riva, etc.) Even someone who cross trains, will naturally gravitate towards one aspect of grappling. Bjj schools need different coaches. One for wrestling takedowns in nogi, one for judo throws in Gi, and a bjj coach for guard work.
Exactly. It’s a simple solution that benefits the athlete. And if the athlete doesn’t want to wrestle or do judo, they don’t have to train them.
MMA athletes have specialized coaches. It’s shown to be incredibly effective. They are experts in all areas now. Some of these guys have phenomenal wrestling and never actually wrestled. They have coaches who specialized in those areas so they can get them learning fast.
Been doing BJJ for 5 years now (purple belt). I grew up wrestling. I hate when people just pull guard.think it should be penalties more. One of my professors (who wrestled and coaches wrestling) discourages the collar tie.
Why should it be penalized? Guard pulling is a perfectly valid strategy allowing for BJJ athletes to round out the playing field against guys who are good on their feet.
I think some are trying to increase the action for spectators. Also, a killer guard can be an awesome stalling tool. I don’t think guard pulling is a bad thing when someone is very active. I have trained with guys that pull guard on me (in the gi) and are extremely active. Meregali in the gi is a good example. Some rule sets, like UWG are breaking up the guard if there is no action. That’s not necessarily a bad thing
I think it depends on whether the guard puller is stalling or attacking. I trained with this guy in the gi who was super super aggressive from guard and kicked the shit out of me. He trains with Dante now
Have you seen any of Kendall Reusing's No-Gi takedown instructional? She trained wrestling with Team USA, but I don't know if women's wrestling is as high level as men's.
I have not. In general it isn’t…but damn Helen Maroulis has a nasty footsweep. I think women are easy to coach, because they don’t have that inner ape that us men have. Lol
To add yo your point imagine if gordan ryan had decent wreslting. He already favors top position.
No fucking doubt!! I would like to see more of a wrestling mentality where there’s lots of aggression. To be honest, he moves so well for a big guy that if people came at him super hard or if he did, it would create a scramble which is going to favor him. If BJJ matches were less time, it would increase the aggression. I like the UWW grappling rule set. It is a combination of international wrestling and BJJ
I agree with the danaher stuff
Are you in upstate NY or do you teach still at Michigan?
Michigan man! Wrestled and won some tournaments in NY when I was a HS wrestler, and I wrestled there a lot in college (because I went to college in CT) but never lived in NY
Man, grappling is grappling is grappling. I don’t really care of you call it wrestling, sambo, judo, Jiujitsu, sumo, Bokh, catch as catch can, it’s the same body mechanics. All that changes is what’s allowed under the rules.
That being said, there’s a lot of valuable wisdom in this video. I too cringe whenever I see people go to the palm of the palm interlaced fingers tie up.
No doubt bro!! When I first started this channel I was showing why wrestling works, because grappling is grappling. The internet broke and there were lots of tears, lol
Who would you say are the top 5 best wrestlers in BJJ? Excluding guys that came from wrestling primarily like Brandon Reed
I don’t know everyone’s history well enough to be sure…I would say that Marcello Garcia was a phenomenal athlete who would have been a legitimate threat in the sport of wrestling with dedicated time spent to it. JT Torres is another. I talk to some guys at B Team and like to give them advice. I would says Damien is definitely very knowledgeable and moves well. He doesn’t reach too much. He still chases the waist/back a little too much and I tell him that, but he is such a fast learner. Not sure who else I would call a good wrestler without knowing their background. Who do you have in mind?
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 I’d defer to you but some names I’d throw out there would be Mica Galvao (like you said in the video), possibly Fabricio Andrey from the same camp. Definitely Izaak Michel. Apparently he’s trained for several years with a couple worlds levels European freestyle guys that now live in Australia. I agree with JT. PJ Barch.
@jasonfasser3220 Barch is off the list because he wrestled A LOT as a kid
@@josephbreza-grappling9459barch wrestled in college
@oladoesjiujitsu2519
He kinda wrestled in college…He wrestled one year and had no matches. I cannot find any record of his matches and he is of the age where all matches are recorded online track wrestling. All the kids nowadays have a transparent profile.
Back when I wrestled there was no trackwrestling or anything like it. We had dial up modems. You can’t find any records of All Americans in my conference at the time I wrestled. You can’t even find any footage. Roman Fleszar was a complete bad ass in my conference and you can’t find one video of him online. The last 15 years or so has been a lot different. It’s everywhere. We recorded in VHS and unless you were in the NCAA finals, it’s hard to find footage from those years. We were transitioning to digital in those days but omg the video quality was horrible
16:23, choke this! lol
Lol! Exactly
A little off topic but I’m curious about your opinion on how class is structured in most BJJ academies vs wrestling. Listening to the ecological guys and studying wrestling practices makes me wonder if we’re not leaving a lot of growth on the table. Maybe a topic for another video..
Yeah that is an interesting topic. I can’t say much about most BJJ gyms, since my experience in BJJ is limited to few gyms. In wrestling, it depends on the level of the room, but let me give you an example of most collegiate rooms.
Quick but intense 10-15min warm up. Bullshit stuff that Seras hated, lol. 15mins or so of really hard drilling. I mean really hard. We are all experts, so we know how to drill moves. Coaches would walk around and fine tune your technique. Make you do it hard as fuck too. Full speed. Hold nothing back. Then some instruction that coach wanted you to work on. Hard drill that shit too. It was super efficient. Not a lot of talking. Lots of hard work. Then it was live wrestling often with situational things. So, maybe you are starting in on a single and once he gets a true takedown or you effectively defend and score or break up, it’s back at it. Almost always, it was round robin groups. Unless we did grudge matches, which were absolutely hell (long format). In BJJ we often pace ourselves in those long formats, but in wrestling they will kick your ass if you dog it. You learn to forget about the time and wrestle to dominate. Usually about 1hr of live wrestling. So practice was usually about 2hrs long and absolutely brutal. Drilling a match at the end of practice was incredibly difficult. That’s when I take him down, he does a stand up, takes me down, I do a stand up. And we do this for the length of a match-7 mins-unless coach calls for overtime. They like to do that so you get the pussy out of you. Because instead of being like “oh come on man” when they call for an overtime, they want you to be stoic. Take it like a man mofo.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 Interesting you talk about how intense drilling is. Contrast that with most Jiu Jitsu classes where a bunch of out of shape guys lay down around an instructor demonstrating moves, then drill without any resistance for more than half the class. Similar to what you are doing in the wrestling department, there are a handful of guys trying to give jiu jitsu a kick in the ass (with love) on class structure and static drilling. Kit Dale and Greg Souders btw.. It's a fair bit more complex but essentially what they are advocating is replacing this weak ass static drilling with live resistance "games" with constraints. Ex one player might not be able to make grips or escape a certain position while the other attacks.. As a thought experiment I would be real curious how someone like you would structure jiu jitsu practice if given total control of a room full of fresh white belts with the goal being to improve as quickly as possible.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 I could talk your ear off on this stuff but I am also curious about what you think about our groundwork in Jiu Jitsu. Obviously wrestling continues to the ground also and when I watch (much less feel) the pinning, leg riding, turtle attacks, ect.. of high level wrestlers, it is pretty clear to me that we have a long way to go in this department as well. In the past year or so I have started training w several young MMA guys (blue belts) and discovered that I couldn't hold them down and they didn't want to "play" jiu jitsu with me. I am finding more success looking towards folk style wrestling than traditional jiu jitsu solutions. I am curious what your thoughts are on this? Perhaps this is a niche that you might look into with an instructional at some point?
@dfjr6525 lazy drilling with no resistance is for the most basic part of understanding. Intense drilling gives muscle memory…especially when you have a great partner who shuts down one thing so you’re forced to go to another. The more you drill with that partner the better than can help you in that department. The constraints thing seems quite similar to what we do with situational wrestling, but wrestling is intense and definitely not much of a game. I get where he is coming from and listened to him a lot. Sounds basically the same as situational wrestling with differences in semantics-“constraints = rules” and “games = objectives”
@dfjr6525 no doubt that wrestling is not just stand up. Something I argue with people a lot. Once someone gives me their back, I am trying to flatten them out with legs in like I did in folkstyle wrestling. And when in the gym, I don’t do stand ups unless I am proving a point in open mat. I am more than likely going to do basic back defense to guard stuff, because I focusing on BJJ. If we start from turtle, I will usually do a headshrug reversal in like slow motion, unless they wrestled and then I pick up the pace. I basically match people’s intensity or like one or two steps below it.
❤❤❤
Geno Morelli also
Legit wrestler. Solid fundamentals
does your instructional cover the same stuff has standing2ground
I mean, John did take everything from wrestling so of course there is overlap. But I teach a system of inside control and explain why those things matter from various positions. I also teach about how different stances require different hand fighting strategies and really focus on push pull mechanics, which is lacking in any BJJ instructional. I am teaching what I learned in part from Andy Seras, who was head coach of the Olympic and world teams, and my collegiate coach. I make it digestible and don’t talk a lot but get right into it.
I don't even understand how any of this is controversial? When i want wrestling help i pull the d1 guy in the room and ask for help. I legit hit a takedown on him and i count it as the only legit takedown i have ever hit. Taking down jiujitsu guys is crap. It counts for nothing until they can wrestle beyond a elementary/middle school level.
A lot of BJJ instructors have giant egos and they won’t accept any help from wrestlers or judokas. My former BJJ coach knew my background in wrestling and he refused to let me teach anything. In fact, he would teach the wrestling and if I mentioned to him (after class) some pointers to help, he would just say this isn’t wrestling, it’s jiu jitsu and that wrestling doesn’t work in jiu jitsu. But like many BJJ instructors, he would contradict himself and tell me to just wrestle from certain positions and/or just teach shitty wrestling. I would help guys out on weekends and was learning judo from another guy in town. When they found out, they terminated my contract
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 I live in state college Pa. Home of Penn State. I have trained with several of those wrestlers and let me tell you for certain that they would wreck most jiujitsu coaches day 1. Give them a few weeks and they will never get caught in guillotines or triangles again. Wrestling definitely works. I have put 17 years into jiujitsu and I am not catching a guillotine on a high level double leg. The opportunity is not there. I have been consistently working with a d1 wrestler I train with regularly and even though I am still a beginner just the corrections in stance and grip fighting have made it close to impossible for the jiujitsu guys to take me down. There are people out there like me that are begging for the help, and can see how it is going to improve the sport. I want to leave jiujitsu better than I found it so I push people to learn to wrestle. People who don't are getting left behind.
Probably a naive question - I'm an ex high school wrestler that has recently started BJJ. Outside of dedicated training, is it worthwhile to study wrestling matches on UA-cam, or is it better to stick to instructionals?
I think if you wrestled you should watch collegiate and international wrestling, because you will sharpen on top of your foundation. Instructionals will give you the playbook. Watch Iowa vs Iowa State from this year. Omg that was good. It was on ESPN +
Awesome, thanks for the reply! I took a lot of time off before stumbling into BJJ, and have really been enjoying watching NCAA wrestling matches recently. I'll check that Iowa match out for sure.
@kylesmith3045 listen closely and you’ll hear the coaches talking about staying on the legs and not coming to the waist on their outside singles. Something I brought to my page and was initially crucified for it by BJJ guys
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 Yeah I would rather fight the back of the knee and torso than their head, hands, and hips for sure. Planning to incorporate swing singles into my BJJ game.
@kylesmith3045 yeah brother!
This might help
ua-cam.com/video/VYGQG_LaUgs/v-deo.htmlsi=y12ehhJ70DPUZPfL
Based
I find these semantic arguments to be one part interesting, and one part a waste of time. Jiu-jitsu is like the MMA of grappling arts. It uses techniques from all the other individual arts and puts them together. Some schools/instructors are better or worse than others at coaching each of these techniques. I'd like to see less sensitivity about this topic.
I am not sure where there is a semantics argument. My argument is that if people want to improve wrestling, they should learn it from experts, just like a striker would want to learn from an expert or someone learning jiu jitsu should learn from a skilled Jiujiteiro. MMA schools are good at this. Steve Mocco for example is the wrestling coach of ATT and he is also a blackbelt in Judo. He isn’t teaching striking or Jiu Jitsu, yet I am sure his newaza isn’t shit.
Yes, I basically see grappling as grappling, but people split hairs for money. I coached wrestling basically for free for 20 years. I got some money for fuel to drive kids everywhere and hotel rooms, but never made a dime. Lost money actually. And I turned down salaries for assistant coaching positions. I just tell the truth about it and it hurts people’s feelings. A person can and should be well rounded. Then I believe if they have learned from qualified people then they can pass on the knowledge. But clearly most people in BJJ aren’t learning wrestling from qualified wrestlers or the wrestling wouldn’t be endless collar ties, hand clasping, sloppy takedowns, side bodylock transitions that result in the dogfight or uchi mata, etc. Clearly classic wrestling works well, because a 17 year old boy (Dorian Olivarez) took grown men down at will with classic wrestling in ADCC. Then once it got to the ground he kicked ass using Jiu Jitsu. So he is a great example of someone using classic wrestling and classic Jiu Jitsu. He didn’t learn that Jiu Jitsu from wrestlers and he certainly didn’t learn that wrestling in BJJ class
@@josephbreza-grappling9459 Agreed. I didn't mean that you were making a semantic argument, just that a lot of people do, and don't understand the difference is between specialists. I've had plenty of debates where I walk away shaking my head. Meh.
@activatebpm well yeah, I honestly made a video like this months ago and didn’t post it, because I didn’t want the backlash. And then after this most recent UFC fightpass I was like fuck it. That and my former BJJ coach kicked me out of his gym for coaching wrestling and doing Judo outside of his gym. Then was like, this is bullshit. Someone needs to say something and I guess it’s going to be me.
I am constantly accused of making a wrestling vs BJJ argument when I have never personally made that argument. I came into BJJ wanting to learn BJJ. I train judo so that I can learn how to use the gi to take people down in jiu jitsu, since I primarily train in the gi. That is also why this is sort of ironic because people call me just a wrestler, when I haven’t put on a pair of shoes in years now and train 95% of the time in the gi. Lol
There is a whole bunch of Jiu-Jitsu for white belts that are designed for people completely new to grappling.
Yes, as there should be. Look how fast someone can learn Jiu Jitsu from experts in Jiu Jitsu. Look at how fast wrestlers can learn how to wrestle from actual wrestling coaches. It’s really that simple. Highschool kids with no experience can win districts after their first year. The following year than can place in regionals and qualify for state. And then some can actually place, but usually after 2 years of hard work you can get them there in their Junior or Senior year. So within a few years you can take someone from a couch to a state podium. And they don’t train 2x a day 7 days a week. They train for a few months a year once a day 5 days a week and then the good ones train a few days a week for the rest of the year in the offseason
So clearly it’s the knowledge of the coaches and teaching methods. These high level BJJ athletes could be amazing wrestlers in no time. If they trained with a collegiate team for 1 season, they would absolutely smoke everyone like Dorian did in ADCC-and he is a boy
wrestlers don't understand wrestling for bjj. which is why no high level wrestler has ever won adcc or black belt worlds. submissions change the game especially guillotines. wrestling is extremely overrated for bjj, wrestlers always lose once they meet a better wrestler in bjj and have 0 games off their back.
This isn’t a 1990s wrestling vs BJJ argument. Of course someone needs to understand submissions. The guillotine story is a bit exaggerated. It’s not a high level finish in high level BJJ and those guys stay on the single forever. I talked about this in the video. Sounds like you missed that. You should watch because I addressed that.
Dorian Olivarez is a highschool boy and wrecked adults in ADCC trials using classic wrestling combined with Jiu Jitsu. There aren’t many high level wrestlers entering BJJ but I hope that changes. It will change when the $$ is there. The $$ will be there when the rules of the sport have more action. Action brings spectators to the screens snd generates $$. This is what happened in wrestling and BJJ and why the rules change all the time. Sometimes I hate the rule sets, but they change them because those with the $$ make decisions. And since there’s so little $$ in BJJ there isn’t that kind of pressure yet. There will be. My point in the video is that there are ways to control people that have been solved already in wrestling and judo. Those can be implemented so that the highest level BJJ guys can get the match to the ground faster and with more control. I never said once in the video about wrestlers being better at BJJ. But I am a neuroscientist who studies perception and find it fascinating that people hear what they want.
In terms of wrestling for BJJ, I understand it pretty well. I put out an instructional for it specifically to address the issues. wrestlingforbjj.com.
@@josephbreza-grappling9459do you think there's more money in wrestling or more money in bjj? Is there the same instructional market in wrestling? My assumption would be that BJJ skews older and so there's more money in the ecosystem.
@armedjoy3045 hell no. There’s no money in wrestling. I coached people for free for 20 years. Any money thrown at me might have just helped with fuel from driving kids all over the place and hotel rooms, but no it’s not about money. That is why it’s pure and there are no lies/charlatan tactics.
Wrestling is for chasing the dream of being the best. People sacrifice a lot post collegiate to be successful on the senior level. Historically, people made a living being a coach and then holding week to month long intensive camps. But these people make a teacher’s salary. If you’re a big name collegiate coach, you make better than that, but not millions or anything. There’s definitely more money in BJJ instructionals.
😂😂😂😂
If your notion is that you have to throw anything away because it has a counter then you have nothing left. Everything has a counter. Learn to freaking defend a guillotine. This argument that wrestling doesn't work because of guillotines is flat out holding the sport back.
Wrestlers just put themselves into submissions for you. 90% of wrestling doesn't work for fighting. That's why wrestlers just run away from BJJ guys.
LOL!!