I was WRONG about the WiiM Streamers!
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- Опубліковано 6 гру 2023
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A short update video with a little more nuance and detail to add to my discussions of the streaming stages of the EverSolo DMP-A8, WiiM Pro and WiiM Mini.
My top recommended HEADPHONES (prices in USD)
HarmonicDyne Athena - $179 - bit.ly/3QvQdlq
Moondrop Para - $299 - amzn.to/4c1C4F9
Sivga SV023 - $449 - amzn.to/3UKXsZ5
Meze 109 Pro - $799 - amzn.to/3y6l6qi
ZMF Atrium - $2,499 - www.zmfheadphones.com/
Meze Elite - $4,000 - bit.ly/3UMIDWb
Focal Utopia (2022) - $4,999 - amzn.to/44xEHvx
My top recommended IEMS (prices in USD)
KZ ESX - $30 - amzn.to/4bpMyxC
Tangzu FUDU - $89 - amzn.to/3UvOrlk
Simgot EM6L - $129 - amzn.to/4a3SLy1
Meze Audio Alba - $159 - bit.ly/AlbaIEM
Thieaudio Elixir - $209 - amzn.to/3ULd9zr
7Hz Timeless - $220 - amzn.to/3QslVA8
Yanyin Canon II - $379 - bit.ly/YanCanII
Xenns Mangird Top - $530 - bit.ly/XENNSTopLin
Sennheiser IE600 - $700 - amzn.to/44AxcUQ
Sennheiser IE900 - $849 - amzn.to/4b66wxy
Westone Mach 70 - $1,400 - amzn.to/3ULUK5P
My top recommended TRANSPORTS (prices in USD)
WiiM Pro - $168 - amzn.to/4bpTDOw
SMSL PL200 CD - $669 - amzn.to/3Wsd0lJ
Eversolo DMP-A6 (Master Edition) - $1,299 - amzn.to/44sBMUR
Eversolo DMP-A8 - $1,980 - amzn.to/3QxRU1B
My top recommended DACS (prices in USD)
Topping E30 II - $149 - amzn.to/3JQyGkd
Topping E50 - $199 - amzn.to/3WucWSO
SMSL DO200 Mk2 - $469 - amzn.to/4a5Di0C
Topping D70 Pro OCTO - $599 - amzn.to/4a8bubZ
Geshelli J2S AK4499EX - $680 - bit.ly/J2SAKM
Schiit Bifrost 2/64 - $799 - www.schiit.com/products/bifro...
Gustard R26 - $1,650 - amzn.to/3QyZ0mB
Schiit Yggdrasil - $2,299 - www.schiit.com/products/yggdr...
Chord TT2 - $5,295 - chordelectronics.co.uk/produc...
My top recommended HEADPHONE AMPS (prices in USD)
Schiit Magni - $119 - www.schiit.com/products/magni...
xDuoo MT-604 - $169 - amzn.to/4bpNYrW
xDuoo TA-26S - $319 - amzn.to/3UJbfzx
Geshelli A3 Pro - $499 - bit.ly/GLA3Pro
Aune S17 Pro - $699 - amzn.to/4a75v7b
Schiit Mjolnir - $1199 - www.schiit.com/products/mjoln...
Burson Audio Voyager - $5,300+ - bit.ly/4a8Mwcq
My top recommended DONGLE DACS (prices in USD)
Moondrop Dawn Pro - $50 - amzn.to/3y2dd57
Simgot DEW4X - $80 - amzn.to/4b68rlK
Questyle M15i - $349 - amzn.to/4doMSyp
My top recommended WIRELESS 'PHONES (prices in USD)
Soundpeats Air3 Deluxe - $40 - amzn.to/3UIXQr4
Soundpeats Air4 Pro - $79 - amzn.to/3Wyj4tj
Edifier Neobuds Pro 2 - $130 - amzn.to/3WwMpEf
Sennheiser Momentum 4 - $379.95 - amzn.to/3WrEqZ0
HiFiMan Svanar Wireless - $499 - amzn.to/4amOhmx
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#audiophile #audioreview #streamer - Наука та технологія
So, one has to move to a 20 times more expensive DAC to hear differences. I think that says a lot for the WiiM.
Absolutely. I expect there's probably a point before you get to the Chord stack where you'll hear differences, but the reality remains that the WiiM Pro and Pro Plus are great!
Spoiler: The 20 times more expensive DAC makes no positive difference. It is all placebo effect.
When you hit 40yrs old and beyond, these incremental sonical improvements (imagined or real) from expensive gears are just feel good stuff
That doesn't have to be the case. Timing accuracy is more important than frequency response when it comes to perceiving the quality of an audio system, so age related high frequency hearing loss doesn't make a good quality system less enjoyable. 🙂
You are talking about maybe picosecond differences. Humans can't perceive those tiny differences. Don't believe the marketing BS from the high dollar companies. You expect high dollar stuff to sound better so your brain makes you think it does. Look at the actual measurements.
Most people focus on the frequency bandwidth loss that come with age. What audiologists would tell you is that what is called "sound discrimination" is not impacted in the same way. In other words, many retirees can here those differences... and they are usually the ones with the most money to spend on this hobby.
Absolutely true. And Brian, this is not talking about marketing. This is up to date scientific research in the audiology field.
Nothing wrong with revising your perspective with new information. I have much more appreciation for your output because of this. Too much jumping on the bandwagon and hyping gear going on with these UA-cam audio channels. Nuff Respect!
I'm glad you feel this way - thanks for commenting!
I think, my opinion, the key to the WiiM streamers, is the built in EQ. That little feature, simply takes the WiiM products to another level. I use a vintage amp/receiver, a Sansui 4000, and use the WiiM Pro streamed through a PS Audio DAC with outputs to the Sansui. Speakers are Zu DW6 Supremes... With the EQ on the WiiM, the recordings, or music are simply better. Being able to adjust for room acoustics, or simply finding the right sound that suits your taste. For the money, add a linear power supply, or battery, and enjoy the music, and laugh all the way to the bank. ;-)
The app, functions and price are definitely excellent!
It's amazing you can hear anything with that stack of buzzing gear.
It’s weird to me noise is even an issue for so many people. I don’t have any special power conditioners and a dozen dacs and amps and save for a few tube amps with a slight hum or some old 1970s/80s amps with hiss, they’re all dead quiet to me. And still even then the hum or hiss doesn’t bother me, I don’t hear it when music is actually playing.
The noise discussed isn't about what we can hear so much as what is affecting the devices producing the devices we listen to. Low level noise in a system can damage our ability to perceive fine details in the music that rely on our brain's ability to extrapolate information from very small cues such as harmonics, the exact timing of transients in the music etc.
In my case I have a very good VanAlstine amp coupled with an Rme adi2 dac fs. My speakers are also very good full towers. Good cables, and a dedicated power line/circuit etc. My cheapest component is a Wiim mini feeding the whole system and I know something is off. Do you still stand by improvements going from the mini to the pro at least, given my set up? Thank you
Absolutely! Mini to Pro is still a good step to take.
Thank you for the additional info. I can understand using the optical when comparing the WiiMs, and hearing the difference. But I have to ask if you believe there’s a practical difference between optical and coax?
Based on many different comparisons across many different devices, I'd say the answer is "sometimes". I've found that it depends on the quality of the circuits inside the DAC and/or transport and/or the quality of cables used. It's a bit tricky to isolate the exact cause because it's impossible to exactly match an optical and coaxial cable.
Great information om this channel. 👏🏼. Surprised that not more subscribers found it.
Thank you! I'm glad you like it. I'm working to constantly grow the channel so hopefully it will get there in time... 🙂
No need to apologise, there's absolutely nothing wrong with updating your opinion based on additional testing and / or more information - that's the essence of the scientific method after all.
Very true! I just hope no-one took any extreme and immediate action from the WiiM review. 😉
@@PassionforSoundimagine some one did act on your review….they can be responsible for their actions… you always try to be fair and objective. This allows us to all learn, configure and re-configure our systems. Relax. This channel grows honesty, integrity and intelligence. Merry Christmas to all
Totally. I'm not stressed about it, but I did want to provide a quick correction to help people's decisions. 🙂
Merry Christmas to you too!
What is your thought with Wiim Pro Plus with denafrips Ares 2 DAC would be good match I currently have budget system with Audiolab 6000A with B & W 685 S2 bookself Speakers..
That would be a nice setup. If you're using the Ares 2, you could just get the WiiM Pro because the upgraded DAC in the Plus version won't be used anyway. 🙂
Would it be different if I am using WiiM Pro Plus with a cheap SMSL SU1?
I'm not fully understanding the question, but the key takeaway for me has been that the WiiM gear is plenty good enough unless your whole source chain is at a high level.
Hi! Its Ananda Nano better option for music than Sivga Sv023?
Not necessarily. It all comes down to your taste in sound in the end. Both are excellent headphones. The SV023 is particularly nice with an OTL tube amp like the xDuoo TA-26S.
Hello! Thanks for your work. I am wondering if you would share more info on your battery power supply?
I was using a laptop power bank from BatPower. I can't recall the model, but I use it because it provides plenty of current when needed and can output 12V or 15V in addition to the regular 5V outputs.
Do you think, that the wiim Pro plus is a good partner to the Holo Audio Cyan 2?
If you're running a separate DAC, there's no benefit in getting the Pro Plus. Just grab the Pro and the Cyan 2 and you'll be fine.
Yes they are all going to sound different because of the difference in parts selection. Example. Take two capacitors of same value but from different makers, will have a different sound. All you would need is to have a different input or output jack of same quality, and have a change in overall sound. Everything has to do with everything in audio. Meaning, every link in the audio chain counts for something as far as the end result. Some links in that chain, modify the sound more than others, that's all. I could go as far as to say that even if you had the exact same parts internally, but one in a plastic case, and the other in an aluminum, you would have a different sound because of shielding and vibration control.
Absolutely. I think the differences here go as far as total circuit design, but your point is valid.
I thought this would be the case. Evaluating source gear is very chain dependent with so many variables to test. Thx for the update!
Looking forward to the review of the streamers in January. My headphone systems consist of mostly Schiit products, Bifrost 2/64 DAC, Lokius EQ, Folkvangr and newly acquired Mjolnir 3 amps. I use the Denon AH-D9200 and Sennheiser HD650 but prefer the D9200’s over the HD650.
I have used my intel-based PC that I built with what I believe to be high quality parts for streaming. I have used an older Mac Mini from 2011 that was starting to show its age and transitioned to a newer Mac Mini M2 Pro back in September. Then the Eversolo DMP-A6 came on scene and I purchased one from Amazon. Had a problem with the electrical cord connecting the A6 (any slight bump on the power cord and the connecting point to the A6 would cause it shut down). I did however spend 3 weeks with it to see how it preformed. I tried the internal streamer of the A6 and preferred the Bifrost 2/64 over the A6. I used the A6 as streamer only and connected the A6 to my Bifrost 2/64 via USB cable. The A6 was overly bright to the point of being fatiguing when using my Denon AH-D9200’s. Those who owned the A6 advised me to let it burn hence the reason I kept 3 weeks before returning it. Even after 3 weeks and estimated 300+ hours on the A6 it was still harsh or overly bright even when used as a streamer only. I made the decision not to purchase another A6.
Then the sales appeared around Thanksgiving timeframe and I purchased the WiiM Pro Plus since it was on sale. I have been using it as a streamer connected via digital coaxial cable to the Bifrost 2/64 and my Mac Mini M2 Pro is connected via USB to the Bifrost 2/64. I will give the edge to the Mac Mini M2 Pro but there is a considerable price difference. I started with iTunes back in the early 2000’s and still use Apple Music today as one of my main music streaming sources, I also use Tidal and Qobuz. The Mac Mini works great for Apple Music.
I have been looking at spending more for a streamer but as you mentioned my DAC (Bifrost 2/64) at $799 would be the bottle neck. Funny thing, months ago there was a live stream from Schiit Audio on UA-cam where Jason Stoddard was answering questions , I asked what would I gain from transitioning from my Bifrost 2/64 to Yggdrasil+ OG and he replied very little and my wallet would be lighter.
I don't entirely agree with Jason on that one, but I do at least agree that the BF2 is already excellent.
The Lumin D3 review process was an interesting one and actually featured the BF2 as a DAC in the listening tests. Whilst the BF2 might bottleneck the absolute performance of a higher end streamer, it's still good enough to sound wonderful and probably to differentiate between something like the WiiMs and the EverSolos.
I upgraded from the mini to the pro for my hifi system. It is a low/mid tier(?) system (Rotel A11 tribute, Geshelli j2s, Wharfedale Evo 4.1, SVS Micro sub). I definitely heard a difference that was not so subtle.
I think this video only adds to your credibility. Thanks.
As b30sail already knows from a different post, I also experienced a not so subtle difference comparing the Mini with the Pro Plus going into Geshelli 4499ex J2S with Sparkos op-amps, through a SS amp driving Heresy IVs. The Mini was 'thin' while the Pro Plus was slightly more full and slightly warmer.
Should receive my custom dual variable LPS soon which I hope will drive even further gains from the Pro Plus and the J2S.
It's important to note that this is not to portray the Mini in a negative way at all. In fact, I lived happily with it for a year and it enabled my Carver amp to enter the modern Era which is wonderful.
The 'thin' comment was not based upon my initial listening impression. Rather, I had only noticed it during a direct A/B comparison to the Pro Plus.
Therein lies a key takeaway: the differences between streamers, and even DACs for that matter, are generally slight if their cost is within a certain range of each other.
Night and day differences are generally reserved for new amps, pre-amps, subs, and speakers, all things being equal 😊
Are you using spdif or optical?
@@Maver1ck911 Optical for me.
@Artemis_Prix Thanks for remembering. That sibilence from when I got the pro went away. I don't know what caused it or why it went away.
I've never heard any if the Klipsch heritage speakers. Must be great. Good luck with the power supply. If you can, let us know how it worked out
@b30sail Sounds great 👍 Strange re the sibilence. Re the Linear power supply, Geshelli Labs referred me to Pine Tree Audio. They make a custom one for the J2 and J2S DACs. What an amazing experience it was working with Jesse the owner and lead engineer. He designed a special, dual variable LPS for me which will future proof the device so that I can use it for other devices as I swap new components in and out. But, he also allowed me to leverage my artistic talents to make the device aesthetically pleasing as well. Should arrive after the first of the year. Stay tuned.
Idea for a review, i own a Chord mojo2 and looking for a streamer. I wonder how Chord poly compares to Wiim and Eversolo (only as streamers)?
Interesting idea! I own the Poly and it sounds great, but I've never tried comparing it with other streamers. Perhaps I should...
I've been comparing the WiimPro+ with the 7000EUR NAIM NDX2 for several days now, really a David and Goliath comparison and no one will believe me, but I like the Wiim Pro+ better! Now I no longer understand the HiFi world.😮
That's always nice when you end up preferring the much cheaper one!
They are supposed to be doing the exact same thing. Some of the high dollar units actually have issues like added distortion. Intentional or not. The Mytek guy was actually talking about the added distortion as a feature on a product that measured badly. So much snake oil BS from the high dollar vendors. Bits are bits. Dacs max out at capabilities at about $500 or even less now.
Finally someone tested the streamers into an external DAC. Most of us will never use the built in DAC in a streamer.
Rubbish
Glad to help, Donald. The internal DAC on the WiiM Pro Plus is quite solid for the money. Great for pairing up with a living room system or a set of active speakers for general background music / life music enjoyment (as opposed to hardcore critical listening)
@@PassionforSound I don’t see why anyone would use a $200 streamer with a $5000 DAC.
A $200 streamer would most likely be used with a $500 DAC and that’s how it should be tested.
@@navinadv because there shoudlnt be much variation between a $200 streamer and a $5000 one other than marketing, in theory. Especially if using near identical raspberry pi implementations. The difference should still be down to the DAC, because if there's jitter then the expensive DAC should clean and reclock it just the same as with a high end streaming source.
Some people like to take a statement like the one I made in my WiiM review and over-generalise it (e.g. saying that WiiMs are as good as any streamer at any level). I obviously can't control what people do with what I say in my reviews, but I do try to be conscious of providing as much clarity as I can for those seeking it.
Lachlan, thanks for an interesting update. Just one point, you mention that you used an optical cable from the streamers to the MScaler and it might be worth you trying the BNC input on the Mscaler instead as many of us fans of the Mscaler find that is the best sounding input on the Mscaler.
That exercise would also be interesting because some of the streamers might have better (or worse) sounding BNC or RCA digital outputs compared to the others in your review.
For a while now I have been using Antipodes streamers connected to the Mscaler and with all of them the BNC output connected to the Mscaler was significantly better sound quality compared to optical.
Regards, Nick
Hi Nick, thanks for stopping by to comment! I had to use optical for the initial tests because the WiiM Mini only has optical and I wanted to keep a level playing field. For my testing with the higher end gear (for the main review) I've gone with coaxial. 🙂
Optical is better
@@razeredge-cm5wx Well that is a point of view but other high end streamer/servers have in the past considered optical and concluded that their measurements showed that the optical reconversion circuits were noisier than the amount of noise filtered out by using optical, hence that overall optical was inferior. Certainly in the many devices I have tried with a selection of outputs the optical has consistently been my least favoured sound.
As an aside there is parallel discussion about using fiber (optical) in network devices on the grounds that it isolates the device from network noise. However again my experience is that reality is much inferior to theory and so far all fiber network devices I have tried have consistently sounded worse than a well implemented ethernet cable switch. By worse in this context for example I mean making the sound of percussion overly emphasised and somewhat incessant as well as plucked instruments.
I've just recently finished testing the HiFiMan Serenade DAC vs the Schiit Bifrost 2/64 and found that the use of optical vs coaxial completely changed my results. Whichever DAC received the optical input performed worse than the DAC receiving the coaxial input so this is definitely an issue.
Can you do a review of the denafrips terminator fed by Arce streamer via I2S and with clocks linked?
I'd love to, but getting my hands on a Terminator is a little tricky because the distributor over here is a relatively small company and can't always spare loaner devices for extended periods.
Nice to hear someone acknowledge a change of perspective relative to testing protocol.
Always happy to update an opinion when merited. 🙂
There’s always the “bit perfect is bit perfect” brigade.. and they’re right, but also wrong. The musical “bit” code is the same across all streaming devices, that’s pretty well scientific knowledge. But, there’s a big but! Bits are not the only thing that can travel down a wire. Static, inducted electrical signals etc can also make your dac work harder to eliminate noise etc that is supplied to it in addition to the bit perfect stream.
A very easy proof of this is streaming wired from an iPhone. Do it while downloading other songs or searching the internet and all sorts of weird and degrading pops, crackles etc can come down your signal line.
Obviously high end gear will be better shielded etc..
That's an excellent example!
Yesterday I did a simple test.
I have track number 12 from
Kings of Convenience “Declaration of Dependence”.
1. Tidal via Wiim Pro App
2. Tidal via Tidal App
3. as a WAV file (EAC) via LAN from my computer
It sounded slightly different three times.
In my ears and my girlfriend's
the network version was the best
Then the one about the Wiim Pro
then the Tidal version.
Set:
- Win 10 per PC
- AVM Fritzbox 7590 AX router
- AVM Powerline to stream the data to the neighboring room
- Wiim Pro
- controlled via the Wiim app on a Samsung Galaxy Tab S5e
- Coax Out
- SMSL d-300 DAC XLR Out
- Classe Audio CP-700 preamp XLR IN and Out
- Krell KSA-200S Poweramp XLR IN
- Duntech Princess C-5000 Speaker
I recommend doing such a test yourself with a well-known song.
That's very interesting! I've heard differences between playback software on PC before (which blew my mind) so this makes sense.
I guess just confirmation that differences only become apparent in a more resolving chain.
Exactly!
Thanks for doing this since I did ask in the last video.....but the new question is: for those of us who want to upgrade the streaming-only part of our rigs without buying streamer-dac combos, where do we look? Holo and Denafrips?
I'm still fairly new to streamers so the only one I have direct experience with so far is the Lumin because the D3 has a streamer only counterpart in the U2 (I think that's it - whatever the entry level streamer only is called).
Other brands like Auralic might also have options.
I would look at the Denafrips Arce and PS Audio Airlens. Both are galvanically isolated. The Arce even has a very good LPS. Both have IIS out, which is very nice.
@@Pete.across.the.street Yeah the Denafrips and Holo are the ones I want to try out, all streams by definition are galvanically isolated though. The AirLens....I wanted to try it but its maybe the most overpriced device in the market, better off getting a D8 tbh
@@mat.b. That's not true. You might want to double check your dictionary.
@@Pete.across.the.street Rather than being pedantic, I'd be interested if you could name a streamer than isn't.
Most streamers have a common power supply that provides ground and power to both inputs and outputs. Once a non-galvanically isolated device is connected at the streamer's input, or if the streamer itself isn't galvanicly isolated, its shared ground passes the noise through a common ground to the output stage where the DAC is connected. As soon as the 1's and 0's are converted to analog in the DAC, that ground noise rears its head, distorting the analog signal. Also the better the clock, the less jitter, and the more accurate the signal is. Hence the minute details are not blurred.
Thanks for the additional info, Pete. What about when the devices ARE galvabically isolated (e.g. an optical connection) and there's still lower quality from one versus another?
@@PassionforSound I think it would be the quality of the clocks used. Better clocks have less jitter. There could be something else at play too, like the software, idk. I don't think the data output from the streamer flows with the same protocols as ethernet does. So error correction may or may not be there.
That would make sense. A good clock can make quite the difference
@@PassionforSound I wonder if two different brands of streamers with the same clock would sound the same or if the FPGA chip would also make a difference? I think the FPGA uses a form a dsp and could possibly make a difference in sound. I don't have a way to test that, just a theory.
It would make for an interesting test to really understand which parts of the circuit provide what level of benefit
What battery is being used here?
Or any recommendations on batteries to power a DAC?
It depends a lot on the DAC and it's voltage requirements. The one I'm using is a BatPower battery, but I can't say if it will suit your specific DAC. What voltage and current does its original power supply deliver?
@PassionforSound my DAC is a Chord Qutest with a 5v input at I think 2.1A.
It has 3 output voltages 1v, 2v and 3v
Yep, the Qutest can run nicely from batteries. Where are you located?
@@PassionforSound North Yorks, UK
I'll see if I can find you a local link to the battery I use...
Having now bought a Pro for such an insignificant amount of money, I find myself with enough left over money to upgrade the power supply. It seems that there are plenty of dual outlet power supplies in either a linear style or battery style so that with one purchase it's possible to power both your dac and streamer. I see a number of either styles in the $200 USD range which makes them price appropriate for the WIIM. I would love to see a review on affordable power options, be it battery or linear and your thoughts on which is best or if you have any recommendations now. I did watch your previous video on linear power supplies. I can only wonder what would be the effect of powering the streamer AND dac together. There is very little information on battery source improvements in particular. Thank you for all the hard work.
Unfortunately, power supplies are very regional because they have to suit the local mains voltages (110V vs 240V, etc.) so it's unlikely I can provide much guidance on power supplies outside of Australia. Sorry!
With the battery supplies, there are SO many options available and most not made specifically for audio use so it's hard to know where to begin to choose some for review in terms of being both widely available internationally, and also a good option for audio.
Stop. There are no advantages to an upgraded power supply on anything other than amplifiers. Don't fall for the BS.
It is very logical what happens. It is all about different levels of noise hitting your dac and degrading its performance. This has been explained many times by Hans Beekhuyzen. It sounds to me like you are not considering the ethernet connection you use? If you would use a great switch (which you have tested before) with good power supply and good ethernet cables then you would notice even bigger differences, also without a high-end dac, since you would feed less noise into to the streamers. The better components in the streamer (lower internal noise floor) the more you will notice when you feed less noise into it. It seems you focused a lot on power but maybe not ethernet sourced noise? It won´t matter as much if you remove one noise source as long as you keep feeding in noise thru another connection.
Indeed, 100% ❤
@@vladimirharant3128 thanks, and the crazy part is that the differences are actually rather big if you target all these noise sources (also with rather cheap gear). I am 100% on Hans B side that the streamer (transport) should be of the same cost/level as your DAC if you want to hear what your dac is truly capable of. But only people that really target ALL these noise "issues" will understand/notice the big differences that are actually there, also in front of a cheap dac!
@@tobiaskervefors8496 exactly as you described. And then there's another can of worms if one tries to control the resonances of the whole digital aparatus (apart from the streamer & DAC, also 5 switches in my case :-D ) and their corresponding power supplies as well (!). I see that the topic of vibration control is almost always neglected and thus nobody realize how HUUUGE difference it actually makes..
Yes, this is kind of the point I'm making with this update video. My initial test was with an "unoptimised" system and so the WiiM Pro/Pro Plus sounded the same as the DMP-A6. Going to a much higher level setup revealed the differences between the gear, hence the clarification video.
I would look at this differently… If a DAC sounds different when feed the same data from different sources, this is exposing a weakness of the DAC, no matter how expensive. Either the DAC is not properly isolating the digital input, and/or is relying on the source to properly clock the data. The latter can certainly be a problem with SPDIF optical or coax.
I also noticed Wiim sounds way better when you reboot.. you might be letting it come on by just plugging in to new power supply.. you have to reboot and then analyze.
I have both wiim pro and pro plus and I hear a clear difference with the one rebooted
That's interesting. Perhaps an issue with buffering of the signal as memory fills up? Who knows...
Your set up
Is SOLID 👍👍👍👍
I certainly enjoy it a lot!
Which battery pack are you using to run the Wiim?
A very good quality power supply
This is my question also. Not all "battery power supply" are the same.
It's a BatPower supply that I've used previously on multiple devices with excellent results in terms of sound quality vs stock power supplies.
Can you please share which one @@PassionforSound?
Thank you.
I don't have it handy to check, but the key think to confirm is that the battery pack in question has sufficient output voltage and current. In the case of the WiiM units, they run on normal phone charger power levels so any of the BatPower designs should be equivalent to mine (and massive overkill 🙂)
Going by the U2 Mini, I expect the D3 to improve sq over the A8. Just a hunch 😉
😉
I started with a mimi using optical output to an SU-1. It sounded jittery and was just awful. Swapping the optical cable didn't do much. I then ordered the pro plus and is fantastic. I prefer the internal DAC over the SU-1
That's very interesting because I've wondered if the SU-1 is as good as many people say. Thanks for sharing this real life comparison!
Good afternoon ☕️
The Wiim pro feeding my Topping E50 DAC ( IFI power supply) ..playing Amazon Music UHD …it’s pretty damn nice .
I do look forward to your long form video on this .👍
I have the same set up and agree.
Cool 😎 👍
I got the E70 today. My goodness, that AKM 4499 is crazy good.
Yes, the WiiM Pro is a great streamer, without a doubt. The gains to be had by spending more are very much a case of diminishing returns so it will all depend on priorities and budget.
@@s.daniel9224Looking at grabbing one next year.
can I ask you what power bank you use?
It is a BatPower laptop power bank
@@PassionforSound thank you! Thinking of getting one for m scaler.
That's exactly what I bought mine for. It's a slightly fiddly setup because you have to charge it all the time, but it does improve the sound slightly
Goes to show how good the WiiM Pro is for the money when reviewed with a $10k DAC. My WiiM pro is leveled up with LPS and Ifi LAN iSilencer and Audioquest Cinnamon SPDIF out.
Sort of. It's definitely very good, especially for the money, but it falls short of the other two I compared it with.
I had almost bought a WiiM not knowing this video had been put out... and had changed my mind. My chosen streaming system is this: 1. MiniDSP Flex Digital using a combination of Bluetooth using LDAC protocol, streaming to my phone, and USB connected to my computer. This is my preamp. It has some unique functions typically found in receivers that are over $1000. It has a SHARC processor that can handle connections to four channels of DACs. * I can't use LDAC with my Windows PC, only the phone * 2. MiniDSP Wi-DG wi-fi to USB converter. 3. Windows PC or my phone. I don't understand why some streamers out there cost so much; computers can be more versatile and can run apps like JRiver and REW. I can use PC based DSP on streams or flacs I have on disk. Can a streamer use vst plugins? There was a bit of misinformation in this video I'm afraid about power supplies. My Benchmark DAC uses a switching power supply, and the idea that linear ones sound better, is wrong.
The more expensive streamers offer better isolation of noise, etc. which provides a modest, but noticeable improvement to the sound.
As for power supplies, both switch mode and linear supplies have their own pros and cons. The fact that your specific device uses a switch mode supply doesn't mean that's the best approach for all devices. There are very expensive, highly engineered products using switch mode supplies and equally as many using linear supplies.
You've made quite a few points for yourself in my book. It is refreshing to see such honesty in audio. On a personal note, until Wiim comes out with a streamer that just blows my Pro wide open, I will be using my Wiim Pro as a streamer only into my R2R DAC. Thank you. Keep em' coming.
I'm glad you feel that way. I also definitely still think the WiiM gear is excellent value for money and so good to interact with via the app.
Integrity personified, excellent!
Thank you 🙂
That's always the aim
I’ve always struggled with the value proposition of streamers. Mainly because I’ve stuck with my Mac Mini (Roon/Qobuz) as a streamer. I have a high end system (MScsler/Dave). Is a dedicated streamer really going to bring me much more ?
It actually will, as surprising as that can be. I've got a somewhat optimised computer (dedicated audio LAN and USB cards) and streamers can still improve the sound I'm able to get from the M-Scaler and TT2
Does that still hold true for running a computer in front of a dedicated streamer ? I’m reluctant to take the Mac Mini (or more so Roon) out of my chain as I use it as a music server to consolidate music services, locally stored tracks, and take advantage of the EQ/convolution capabilities. Guess I need to do some testing.
I found that serving the audio from Roon on my PC to the Lumin D3 and then the M-Scaler/TT2 does sound better than going straight from my PC to the DAC
@@toofastforfitty3723 Think about it this way. Audio is "all" about noise floor, especially in the digital domain, strangely enough... A good streamer is built around the concept of lowering the digital noise floor, to send the cleanest possible digital signal towards your DAC, so that the DAC can work as precisely as possible. The moment you physically plug something noisy, like a normal computer, into that streamer you are going to impact its noise floor negatively, regardless if the music is transferred that path or not.
@@tobiaskervefors8496Digital noise floor isn't really audible at all, it's only analog noise floor and differences with digital dithering or conversion that you will hear. The only time digital noise floor could audibly impact on things is when recording or mixing/mastering. You are not going to hear it over any processing that happens to the digital stream as it is going into or through devices.
Stressful times for Passion for Sound.
No, not stressful - just interesting. I enjoy the journey and exploration. 🙂
This is to be expected and it still sounds like the Wiim range is incredible performance per dollar. I just picked up the pro for $80 shipped on Black Friday. I think I can explain the difference in quality by just stating some buzz words with no context: jitter, clock crystals, filtering, capacitor quality, internal circuit isolation.
Yes. For the money, there still fantastic.
Thank you for posting.
No problems!
I understand the comparison to test the streaming stage of an all-in-one against something like the WiiM Pro (that will most likely be considered by most, as a streamer-only), but is this test worth the effort? I wonder who is going to spend $2k on a DMP-A8 (or any all-in-one) and only use it as a streamer. I think a more appropriate comparison is the A8 using it as the all-in-one unit that your are paying for and putting it up against something like a WiIM Pro used with a separate DAC in the 1500-1700 price point. Now you have two similar priced setups that I think many people are trying to choose between.
That's what I covered in my separate DMP-A8 review (use as an all-in-one streamer/DAC vs external DAC, etc.) The question here was to see whether there is any point spending more on a higher end streamer IF you're using an external DAC an therefore not looking to use the internal DAC.
The HiFi nomenclature is failing. For instance there are streamers, and then there are streamers, and then there are also, streamers. Most have analog output from an internal DAC. Others have analog and also digital outputs to go to an external DAC. Then there are streamers that have only digital output. Bingo, that's a streamer.
There are power amps, preamps and integrated amps. We need a term for streamers without DAC's and those with. How about streaming receiver or just receiver for non DAC digital output only ones. Then perhaps integrated streamer for those that have analog and perhaps digital output.
I see no reason to doubt the processing and passing through of the network supplied data stream would not effect audio just like any other component. I am not sure why streamer suddenly is relegated in peoples minds to the old ‘digital is digital’ way of thinking.
I’ll hazard a guess and say the last and least influential component in a system may be the streaming section, but it’s a difference. Any streamer if it has digital output must be tested with a reference DAC.
I completely agree about the naming convention (or lack of). I'll see if I can start a trend with my upcoming D3 review! 🙂
Thanks
You don't need to use a battery pack if you go full balanced throughout the stack. The DAC and amps should have decent enough power filtering and regulation to deal with any power supply noise and fluctuations. This is measurable, so if they don't then avoid them like the plague. The point of the battery is to eliminate potential ground loops in the power supply, which is also eliminated by using balanced cabling. That's why professional gear is all balanced.
Or use proper grounding or non 💩 smps with mains leakage
I'm not an expert in the field by any stretch, but my understanding is that balanced circuits will remove induced noise from external sources such as RF/EMI. The issues with power supply noise is that it can affect the circuit in areas that the balanced summing doesn't negate such as noise in the ground / reference plane and if it's interfering within the digital circuit, it's too late by the time the balanced interconnects come into play.
@@PassionforSound True. Noise which has been modulated and passed on in the signal cannot be differentially removed by cancellation. It can only be amplified or passed through the chain as a part of the signal. Only jitter fighting FPGA's and quality USB buffers can fight source signal issues before they're converted to the analog domain.
How this affects the outcome... the great debate.
One of the most important upgrades you could ever do is to get off of your PC. Your gear will be happy that you did.
True. Or you can add components to your PC to improve the sound such as the JCat USB and Ethernet cards. A quality streamer is still better, but my PC with those two cards can match the performance of something at the level of the EverSolo streamers.
@@PassionforSound some people like MACs better 😜
Fair point 😁
Admittedly, adding a DDC can help there in mucht the same way as the internal cards, but an external streamer is a simpler solution unless you're in a situation like me where having the computer integrated with the chain is important for other purposes (e.g. movie watching, editing, etc.)
@@PassionforSound you're right too! But there is also airplay which is fairly clean. Although if you edit video then maybe direct is better, but for most things airplay works quite well. In any case, depends on your use-case for sure. 😁
I have a $5K system & though I'll probably one day add a Schiit Bifrost 2 dac the Wiim Pro Plus is holding it's own. Friend of mine has a $40K system - I would never recommend the Wiim for him. In fact he was using a Node 2i & I told him he could do better, now he has HiFi Rose.
That makes complete sense. I think the BF264 is a great upgrade path plan!
Try it with topping p50 on the Wii pro plus
i don't think it has enough amperage for the pro plus. it's good for the mini though, which i use it with.
There's no real need to try all different power supplies. The key is seeing what difference the supply makes and then you know if any quality supply is worth adding or not (and it is).
You don't need such expensive DACs for this. A great price/ratio DAC (such as Gustard R26) is more than capable to show the differences. Just be sure to have good enough headphones + amp. Again, in the 2-4000$ price range you should be able to hear differences between sources.
I definitely agree. I was working with what I had here, not recommending a specific setup combination.
Ah, the vagaries of self-clocked serial data streams!
Haha. Nicely said 🙂🙂
Blind test when? 😁
Been there, done that. Not helpful and introduces its own issues. Always happy to call out the times where I'm certain that I couldn't pick a difference. I actually just made some notes yesterday where I found a difference between devices that I think is too subtle to pick reliably, even though I believe there is one.
@@PassionforSound thanks for the reply, I was mostly joking/poking at you (only meant as fun) regarding the previous blind test :) Nothing serious, even though I strongly believe that our brain alters what we hear, depending on what the eyes see and what we know about the products. I fully believe that people can hear all sorts of differences between all types of gear, but in some cases it's mostly the brain that's responsible for this, not the ears :)
I never know when it comes to the topic of blind testing. 🙂
I totally agree that the brain is powerful at creating perceptions that don't align with reality, but they also do this in blind testing due to expectations of change (or no change) and that's where blind testing has its own issues. Recognising these issues and being willing and accepting of not hearing a difference helps to overcome it. So does thinking about every product in terms of what the pros and cons are of each product rather than just saying what's good/bad is another good way to overcome it.
Wiim will be surprised with the amount of returns they will have to provide 😂
I hope not! They're still excellent for their price point and even above. It all depends on people's needs and expectations.
Exactly. I've recently progressed from cheap ear buds into an Android phone, added a Fiio DAC and was blown away- not surprisingly. I then used the USB C on my PC to stream Tidal, into Logitech computer speakers- I can feel you all cringe. Next move was a nineties marantz Cd player, all serviced and cleaned for sixty quid. Cambridge Audio A1 amp (forty quid eBay) and a pair of Mordaunt Short speakers on stands were added. For the first time in many years I sat down and listened, and now find the 250 GB of MP3s I have lacking, so streaming seems the way forward. I've downgraded my Tidal trial to Hi Fi plus, I struggled to tell the difference , I'm sixty odd, after all. The Wiim Pro Plus is a massive improvement on using my (ex-office) PC and DAC to stream, for sure.
I'm certain that the returns will rapidly diminish for me from now on, so having spent £500 I'll leave it at that, or it will become a disease! I am over the moon with the sound produced, and visitors comment, unsolicited.@@PassionforSound
Sounds like the WiiM Pro or Pro Plus would be perfectly at home feeding a DAC up to $1500-$2000 and give you everything it can deliver. That's still a very good deal.
The Wiim Pro Plus dac is probably just as good or better than those high dollar dacs. The Wiim Pro and mini can benefit from an external dac.
@@BrianHall-OklahomaOf course it all depends on the rest of your system and what you want from it.
Standalone DACs, particularly R2R based ones, have attributes that are nice: a more natural tonality or body to each note, a wider soundstage with more depth, and in some cases, more dynamics than you can get from chip-based DACs.
The Denafrips Pontus II - 12th is one such example at $2100 - and unlike its cheaper brother, the Ares II, the Pontus has more bass "slam", so I think it is worth the price difference. With the Ares II, many think you need to buy a DDC "reclocker" to make it go from "good" to "great" but why not just get the overall better Pontus II and not worry about a DDC?
However, feeding the Pontus using a WiiM Pro or Pro Plus is fine. Since the DACs reclock the digital signal, I don't think the streamer (if it is "pretty good") makes as noticeable a difference. Others on the Audiogon forum think otherwise, but whatever.
I had been looking at getting the new Cambridge CXN100 but felt it'd be dumb to pay $1100 for it and not use its onboard DAC. The WiiM streamers are probably just as good as the streaming section on the Cambridge.
I do like that cover art display on the Cambridge though, but not enough to spend another $1100 to get it.
And there is a lot to be said about the WiiM's user software - it is far better than on some high-end streamers from Innuos, Matrix, Lumin, or Aurrender. They have set a bar for usability that others need to play catch up with - especially considering their prices.
I have the Pro and really like it.
Same, maybe on his set up he can hear a slight difference. The thing is, I'm never going to be spending money in that range on my audio gear. So to me its a compliment to Wiim that it takes that kind of gear to show any difference. Means, I'm good to keep the Wiim hah.
@@danielh12345 👍
The WiiM Pro and Pro Plus are still brilliant devices and there's really no point spending more unless you're approaching >$1500 DAC territory I'd say
@@PassionforSound I have an RME ADI-2 DAC fs into a Schiit Freya N, into a NAD 216. Plan on either a set of Schiit Tyr or Vidar 2 to match my preamp. Thanks for the info, good video.
I wouldn't stress too much about anything more than a WiiM Pro for the ADI-2. You'll be pretty close to maxxing it out already so better to invest in the rest of the chain as you've planned. 🙂
What? Someone on the internet admitting a flaw in their analysis? Even though I'm never going to buy a $10K DAC and the difference is irrelevant for me, hats off for having the integrity and lack of ego to do a mea culpa.
Anytime. 🙂
It's important to me to be open and honest, even when it's about me making a mistake. We're all human, after all. 🙂🙂
Challenge is at what point does one say: It's good enough.... Of course, a $10K DAC should sound better than a $1K DAC... A $850 streamer should sound better than a $79 streamer etc etc.. Just like a $5 million house should be better than a $500K house...
This. Even then, the difference is so incredibly minute as to be irrelevant. At a certain point you just want to listen to music and have fun. Trying to pick out so-subtle-as-to-be-non-existent differences is a rabbit hole to nowhere.
In today's world that's not true...especially out west in the US where a million dollar house can be a suck mid level home.
I agree that there's a point where we should all draw the line, but that point varies greatly depending on people's interest in the gear vs the enjoyment vs the available budget vs the enjoyment of experiencing each upgrade, etc. 🙂
@@DJ_BROBOT Obviously, there are always exceptions...
@@PassionforSound So true.. to each his/her own.. If you see value in it, then by all means...
Wiim Pro Plus is the current model.
There are three current models: Mini, Pro, Pro Plus. Each is at a different price level with different specs.
Will you be showing the measurements. Can't wait to see them.
There is a reason for changes in sound even if your source is sending bit perfect. It may well be due to the power supply injecting more noise into the system. This then creates noisefloor modulation, giving a artificially brighter/ more detailed sound but sounding more fatiguing in the long run. Rob Watts has stated multiple times that he is not a fan of linear power supplies as they lack rf filters compared to switch mode power supplies. This is why all his dacs even Dave uses a switch mode ps. The warmer sounding connection is the one with less noise. If it gets too warm rather get a brighter headphone than “fixing it” by increasing noise in the system. It makes absolute sense that the Wiim mini sounds warmer as is draws less power, lower power means again lower noise level.
The people who always try to use linear power supplies even in gear engineered around SMPS is insane. Those pieces of gear do not benefit from exotic sources because they already have on board regulation and reservoir caps. You can't overdrive the depletion/regeneration of those caps or force rectifiers to work faster with a more expensive outboard power supply.
On the other hand you have the Ferrum amp and Hypsos with a proprietary connection that makes me believe they gimped the wall outlet port and on board power supply so they could sell an 800$ solution to a problem they created.
Why would you need rf filter on a lps? And if you you needed one why couldn't you add one? Why does it matter if it was designed around a smps? If you match the same voltage from the power supply itself and has enough amperage, anything on the board will still function properly. You can upgrade board components as well. What gear have you heard a lps on that was designed around a smps?
@Pete.across.the.street RME. Every thing else I have runs AC 115v. And who needs an RF filter on an LPS? The people buying thousand dollar power conditioners for their 50/60hz hum only measurable with a SpecAn hundred dB down 🤣
@@Maver1ck911 lps and smps both run 115v ac
@Pete.across.the.street you serious? It's to filter the high frequency switching noise so the DAC's modulator isn't interacting with it while smoothing ripple as an AC to DC conversion...now does it affect the audible reproduction of music? That's the great debate and there's plenty of unscrupulous companies that sell snake oil for this. In my opinion mains leakage current is much more of an issue with people's poor set ups, particularly single ended, when they don't understand ground loops especially with USB interfaces/USB charging devices. Just buy a medical grade compliant SMPS, which can be very affordable, and side step leakage all together over cheap Chinese units.
Yeah, but spending 10k on a streamer / dac demonstrates insanity. I will stick with the Wiim. Can't wait for the Ultra!
bit perfect is bit perfect. literally.
And noise in a system is noise in a system. Literally. 😉
Using i pad charger and wireworld usb cable .. Super Sexy dark quiet ! 😮😊
Glad you're enjoying it!
@@PassionforSound Not Bad Unit .. Figured id try it close to sotm 200 i have with upgrades !
Clocks in streamers matter.
Yes, I expect that clock quality and the isolation of noise from the signal is the key to the difference between something like the WiiM Mini and the higher end streamers.
The WIIM'S are for everyman. The Toppers and SMSLers. Music lovers and not fanatics 😊
Exactly and they're great for that!
.. also have noticed that with certain matchings, DC offset rears its head. The aune S9c will suffer some trans hum. Thank goodness for Humbusters III. I don't think they make them anymore.
sounds like company complained
No. I just like to be thorough and clear. Why would they complain anyway?
I have the pro and mini, and I consider my system very revealing, and there is no difference to my ears!
Thanks for sharing your experiences. Do you want to share a bit more about your other devices to help people understand what you're using with the WiiMs?
@PassionforSound I am using a Bryston BP25 preamp to a pair of Paradigm Active 20v2 with a Topping dac/ Wiim mini all into an external battery pack!
Sounds like a nice chain! I'd suggest that the Pro vs Topping DAC is why you're not hearing a difference between them, but that's a good thing if you're just enjoying the music!
Goddamnit.
Uh oh. Is it too late?
@@PassionforSound Hah no, I already own a Wiim pro and was (briefly) relieved that I wouldn't need to upgrade. It's been too late for my wallet for quite some time. 🤕
Should test them via the USB out, in that the clock of the DAC is master…. A great difference over optical….
The WiiMs don't have USB out
With respect, this video is entirely unnecessary. It's not in any way surprising that more expensive streamers ( significantly more expensive ) will scale better.
The key thing is that with the likely compatible gear, and even a price tier above, the Wiim streamers perform comfortably above their price point, and they are similar in sound quality to the A6 as a streamer only.
Folks are going to use these to get on the ladder, and in second or third systems. They are not going to use them with £10000 worth of gear.
I get what you are saying about trying to define the limits of this gear, but it in no way invalidates your original video.
Maybe you are overcompensating after all that silliness about bias and the A8. If so, chill, have a cold beverage and forgeddaboudit.
The doctor has spoken.
They only perform above their price point when a $500 battery is used though.
This video is a clarification for anyone who thought that my previous review meant that there was no point spending more than a WiiM regardless of system value. I felt it was important to add this nuance and clarity.
Lol. There is no way anybody will be running a wiim into the chord gear that you tested this with. Sticking to a dac below $1000-1500 is more reasonable
That wasn't the point of the video. The point was that those with higher end gear can benefit from higher end streamers. This doesn't make the WiiMs bad - they're brilliant for what they are, but I needed to provide further context to my previous review.
With respect, there are no differences for you to hear. This is silly.
Perhaps try the same comparisons for yourself before posting disparaging comments. Nothing silly happening here, just honest curiosity resulting in some interesting results.
So, you are saying that streamers that are much more expensive are better? Who would have thought?
what surprises me is that they are not that much better.
Many would have thought they're not and many will still claim they're not. I agree though that the differences are clearly noticeable, but not vast as you spend significantly more money.
@@PassionforSound yes. one of the questions i'm starting to ask myself when thinking of upgrading gear is "is (/are) the u pgrade(s) worth the extra money i'm paying for this?" it's nice to know the audible differences are only noticeable in a higher end system. You may be helping some people save some money. :D
I hope so! I'm all for people pursuing higher end gear if they want to, but I also like to reassure people that it's often not necessary.
another mumbo jumbo about external dac's...most people couldn't hear any difference between 200$ and 5000$ dac in blind test including internal dac of wiim pro...but, it looks like all of these youtubers are getting the same instructions, or it's just lazy copy paste activity to bash wiim pro internal dac as "not so great"...it is a load of BS...just put behind the curtain wiim pro over rca against some more expensive dac/streamer, brought some people over and tell us about results...
Going to an external dac, the Wiim units put out the exact same bits as any other streamer. I have a DMP-A6 and a Wiim Pro Plus. They are both great. The high dollar linear power supplies make no difference in digital output. Not possible. Bits are bits. High dollar units don't produce any shinier more polished bits. Also, the Chord m-scaler is BS and performs no useful function. There is no benefit from upscaling a signal except in a dac when it is done to filter out noise. The M-Scaler is snake oil and worthless.
Putting a $79 streamer into a 10k dac lol. Im confused
That's kind of my point in explaining why I didn't hear the difference between the WiiMs (Pro and Pro Plus) and the DMP-A6 in the first video. I don't believe they're intended for the level of system I just tested them on, but people wanted to know so here we are. 🙂
@@PassionforSound so is a wiim pro ok or do i need to sacrifice my chord mojo for it to sound good? I just couldnt keep up it was a very busy video
Sorry. This wasn't intended to be a full review. That's coming in early January.
The short answer is that the WiiM Pro and Pro Plus are still fine. I'd probably keep that feeding the Qutest for now because it's a better DAC than you'll get inside a streaming device. You can always upgrade the streamer down the track if you feel to.
Question is, "are you a bullshitter"?
These type of response make me sad. He’s trying his best to do these reviews and give as much feedback as possible. Nobody is perfect from a first take.
@@aceofspades6667 Indeed.. he is doing his best and admits he is not perfect. A BIG man in my opinion.
Very sad. There is so much work that goes into reviewing the gear. The amount of time , dedication and effort. You are not paying for this. At least have a courtesy to restrain yourself by putting such hurtful comments.
No more or less than any other audio gear reviewer
@edward. Are you a person that is bitter with the world, really stupid comment to make.
Of course theres is a different... Is there a cheaper product that outperforms an espensive one? This sponsers are paying big money...people are being fooled..
There are plenty of examples of cheaper products outperforming more expensive ones. The Geshelli Labs A3 Pro outperforms every amp I've tried under about $1,000. The Schiit Bifrost 2 outperforms most DACs below about $1200-1500. Sometimes we get lucky and score a bargain. Other times, the realities of production and parts costs, etc. mean that more expensive gear really is better. This is the same in most industries.
But now try and source a Holo Red 🥲 theyre impossible to find