The fact is that a certain few creators have burned us by promising their books done at a certain time and then being drastically late. I'll wait two years if you SAY that it will take two years. But if you are so irresponsible and condescending towards your customers that you think they'll just wait because of your name alone or because the art will be coooool, you have another thing coming. It doesn't help that a certain creator thinks it's somehow more fun to get your book late. Again, as far as I can tell, it's more about having a realistic time table and less about crowdfunding vs buying from a store.
So you would rather have something sloppy and on time than perfect but delayed? Fuck me... In the gaming industry it's a famous quote that nobody remembers if a game was delayed but they sure as hell remember that it was shit. So nobody remember Witcher 3 got delayed when released but everyone remembers the Cyberpunk release... Also by your logic if you get bitten by a dog that makes it alright to distrust all dogs... That's pretty pathetic. Have you heard of the term "anecdotal" ... That is what your experience is at best and ignorant at worst.
I’ve always viewed crowd-funding as an investment. I’m not shopping for the book- I’m, for lack of a better word, a producer that’s helping to make this thing happen. I personally don’t mind waiting a little longer for a project like a comic if it means that the creator doesn’t rush to put out a book that’s not their best work; that they underestimated how much they wanted to put into the story. Art can get away from you like that. But I can also see why some people would feel cheated if the promised delivery date of the project just kept getting pushed back and pushed back and… It’s not an easy spot to be in, but I’m definitely taking notes from all of this in case I ever do have the guts to self-publish my own stories.
It should be ready immediately, or at the very least be finished 6 months after. It’s ridiculous waiting 2 years for a 60 page comic, my god that’s beyond slow.
Yeah why wait for something to be ready?! We all know better to rush something than delay... That is why Cyberpunk is a better game than Witcher 3 which got delayed. Or like how musicians that release music every month are the best... Or like with Authors... I mean the likes of Terry Pratchett took sometimes 3 years to write a book! Whereas Katy Price can knock one out in 3 months! She is much better. I mean yeah it's slow... But that is art for you... I mean it took 5 years to paint the sistene chapel... But hey, we all know pop tarts and hot pockets are better meals than say... Christmas Dinner. Way more filling and way more mixed diet. Christmas Dinner takes too long. Pop tarts. Bam. only in 2022 would you honestly get weebs offended by LOTR on Amazon and then in the same breath get annoyed by things being delayed in creative media...
I agree. I think the story should be fully thought out before you launch a crowdfunding campaign, not just because that way you’ll know it’s good, but it guarantees the person is passionate about the work and will finish it. As a writer (not a comicbook writer though) I can say all of the stories I gave up on were ones that I didn’t have an ending for.
Erm quick question... So it should have already gotten to a publisher and had an editor go over it... Meaning the crowdfunding wasn't needed cause the comic already has a publisher and they have an editor which is literally one of the reasons you want crowdfunding....
I think you are missing the problem people are having with crowdfunding. If your campaign ends and it takes 4 months for you to ship, that is not a problem if you told the backers it would take 4 months. If you are up front, the backers know what they are getting into. It also helps if the comic gets updates with pictures showing progress. The problem people are having is when you don't have a ship date, no progress shown and its just out there. People will forgive 1 month, maybe 2-3 months. But some are 1 year late. Then you see the artist doing 5+ hour live streams talking to friends about stupid shit. (No names...Ethan). The backers just want a good faith try to bring stuff to them in a timely manner.
I think you are missing the point of creative media. Better to have a good product ship late than a bad one ship on time... Witcher 3 v Cyberpunk... One game was actually heavily delayed... The other was Cyberpunk and perhaps should have been delayed by a year or two.... I think some of you see art as like working in Wally World... Stacking shelves isn't like drawing... How ignorant. Yes how dare an artist draw outside of a comic kickstarter... If they are working on a comic that is what they should only do cause that doesn't cause burnout in us creative types... Honest... But you are right... Next time I am in the USA and in Maccies I will scream at you for taking my money but yet taking forever to give me my Big Mac meal.... I paid! What's the fucking delay? What do you mean you are "busy" of course you are busy, its fucking maccies! When are you not busy, you min wage goontard. Fuck me. Hurry up, scrub. Some of us have places to be! ... I joke. I wouldn't do that to your colleagues. Cause I understand life isn't mechanical and things go wrong and delays happen. Honestly you'd expect you paedophile weeb cunts to be more chill... One min you are raging... Next min you are wanting to sexually abuse kids... Then you are crying over something... Honestly... Y'all are like members of the Smith family. I do love the fact though that Tool can take 7 years on an album and it be classed as one of the best in rock history (Lateralus) and yet artists can't even take 12 months... HA. My God why is my gen so disposable. Disposable ethics, values, dreams and empathy. Never look up how long the Sistine Chapel took to paint. And that was under 350 people!!! I mean thats a lot of time to spend per person.... And that was something pre internet so didn't have to worry about literally the whole world being able to see it....
Good point! Lateness can be a big problem cause it causes distrust between the backers and the creators. It can be difficult to be on time in some cases. Life happens. All the more reason to have good planning, and allow some wiggle room when you set the deadline.
The REAL problem with Kickstarter and 'Early access' paradigms is that once the creative parties realize they've _already_ received most of the money they would have made, the _incentive_ to finish just isn't there. I can think of one large comic project that I believe STILL hasn't been finished after a couple of years, and yet, the artist has time to go on UA-cam and Social Media and complain about all the people complaining. Maybe get off Social Media and actually FINISH the job you've been PAID FOR? I am not dissing the creatives, its just human nature. You won't chase money you've already made.
I think the main point of crowdfunding is determining early on if the idea is something people would want to buy into, given that there are sample pages to give a taste of what exactly is in it. It seems kind of silly to completely finish something, then as you're marketing it, people are just scratching their heads thinking "what even is this". This example probably fits most with creators who haven't established their brand with a prior book, compared to a creator who did and should have an idea as to how to conduct their workflow/timing. All in all, hold previously established people to a higher standard than someone trying to get something new off the ground for the first time.
For myself it doesn't have to be finished as in it's ready to go as soon as the campaign starts but maybe around 60 to 70% done and by the end of the campaign 90%. If you have time to make splash pages and poster art for the campaign page to intrigue people to give their money then at least be settled on the story and scripting and you've started drawing. I understand if something catastrophic can happen that delays things (been there done that) but I don't want to wait 2 plus years for fulfillment and in the meantime the campaigner has started a new campaign.
If I were to launch a book, I'd make sure that the waiting period is no longer than 6 months. Preferably 3. As a backer, I can wait as long as it takes. Either way, the script must be finished before the campaign begins. Unless you are established and you know what you're doing. Most famous example: Ethan Van Sciver. Then again there's Cecil, but in that case I'm suing him if he DOES deliver. We were promised a cash grab and by George, we had better get one.
i agree with your method, that way people arent waiting too long and you can work on any stretch goals you can think of instead of piling more work onto yourself "now i have to finish the book AND goals 1 through 3 by so and so date" nothing drains the passion from a project like making it into work. i think its a great way to judge interest in your project and pay for publishing costs without having to sell out to a big company that will just steal your idea if you dont read the fine print hard enough, or completely take over your project and change it into something you cant even recognize.
I guess the creators who have the most flexibility when it comes to having something to show before the crowdfunding is completed, are those who either have the funds to invest beforehand or those who can draw and write their book themselves.
Even if you have the ability it isn't that easy. People have to live and tools cost money. When you employ a builder the cost of supplies are separate... Us "creatives" don't pass that on. Yet Adobe CC costs money... ZBrush and 3DS Max all cost money. And people say "there is free software" and yes... There is ... But it can only take you so far. If you want to be a 3d animator then Maya with the Renderman plug-in is where it is at... Yes you can use Blender ... But should you get a call to the big leagues of Pixar or Dreamworks you will be fucked because Blender is nothing like Maya, Cinema 4d, 3ds max, etc. And also you need a mix. I use blender but also use substance for textures... I use Maya for rigging and animation.. I use ZBrush for scultp... Now go look at the costs. Look at it this way... When a kickstarter for say... A board game... They don't have anywhere near the costs a comic or games designer has. They literally just need to prototype and then get a factory to make their item.... Honestly ... I have to pay for Zbrush, Adobe CC with substance, Maya, 3DS Max, and others! Add them all up and it's quite the amount. Maya and 3DS max on their own are fucking expensive. So sometimes the money is needed at different stages. The same way as a builder will demand payment at different milestones or points in development. It's almost like creating something from nothing is harder work than those people that say "do you wanna go large" or "your seat is down there and to the left, 4th row" .... It's almost like that's the trade off for doing something we love - financial instability and a lack of empathy from the people we do it for.... But you are right. Us creatives should listen to the fans more... *looks at old emails from used to work for a big dev* So... Like this email here about abuse on forums from HR and about ignoring... Should I ignore that and go read all the deaththreats made by the lovely and understanding fans? I do love the fact that so many weebs are getting bent out of shape of this stuff... Such great moralistic gymnastics at play... Where they condemn a person for being bad (delaying a comic) whilst also having storage drives filled with anime that is questionable. Aaaaah I cannot wait to Hentai is fully banned. Should be. You paedophile scum disgust me. So yeah it's bad when delays happen but life happens... No excuse ever for wanting to sexually abuse children though and only one real punishment that should exist for paedophile weeb scum.... And it has a primer and firing pin involved. Best time of my life was hurting my knuckles on the Otaku Society... I don't condone violence ... Unless they are paedophiles.
Yeah waiting on a book you might never get is not a great experience. I’ve had a experience where I crowd funded a book that had many samples eluding to it being halfway done. Never got the book, never heard back from creator and now they got a new crowd fund for the follow up to the first I never got.
Im too small...and maybe too passionate about too many of my projects. From cars I restore, to books Ive written, to comics (which were a MAJOR flop), animation work... Too much love will kill you - Freddie Mercury (1788 Colorized)
I would say 75% for art-based projects, depending on how expansive the project is. For something more the size of a novel I would go lower, like 50%. Projects that require a more expensive investment in materials you only need a _working_ prototype. Lots of people have great ideas, but they don't have the willpower to see them through (I know this because I am an artist that never finishes anything - I have turned down paid-for projects because I know myself).
I can understand if they don't have much beyond some concept art if they aren't the artist for the comic and they are hoping the crowdfunding would help pay for an artist. But they should have a script down at least and some rough concept art at least, maybe pay out of pocket to have a cover or some promo art done and explain that once funded you can get the artist to do the pages as well or something.
So, what you're getting at is, "Whoops, my phone dinged twice during my shoot!" (4:35) Anyway, crowd-funding is the decentralized wild west frontier right now. For projects: do them one at a time--never overreach without staff or committed interest. While solo, track every expense; treat this as a business from the start. Do like "Abobo's Big Adventure" and schedule project development posts. If your workflow accomplishes something every day at no severe cost, then you are ready to crowd-fund and hire staff. Do the crowd-funding only when you wish to staff the project or pay a printer for material and feelies. Never make unkeepable promises. Once you have a staff, you are also a boss and must act like one. Take a deep breath. Treat comic production as an industry. Here, you have a cross-shaped grid with "One" or "Several" participants using an "In Advance" or "Fill-in-Blank" script structure. In Advance: Iron out details before any step (somewhat linear). Fill-in-Blank: Convey general idea, get the others to chime in and return for completion. One: A versatile, solitary author--editor optional. Several: A retinue of specialists--singular vision optional. "In Advance" + "Several" = Industry Standard / DC Conceptualize & write a script in advance, then the artists take a stab. Writers become a major contributor and bottleneck in tandem. It also receives at least two editorial passes: one before artwork and another once you sketched (but not inked) it all. If nothing clicks by then, or what clicks comes into dispute, lots of effort gets scrapped (still better than getting pulped or even released). "In Advance" + "One" = Serial Manga The do-it-yourself self-starter--no further staff input--which requires a versatile, determined & consistent author. Two strips or one page per day is ideal. Serial Manga uses a wave-like hook or premise full of iterative promise and borderline platitudinal archetypes with planned or expected endings, allowing for ease of procuring and conveying subject matter. "Fill in Blanks" + "One" = Web Comic Far less focused and more self-indulgent than the rest, the Web Comic's elimination of conventional publishing processes implies a disregard of standards. The author conjures the subject in an organic fashion with an inefficient workflow. Despite the many horrible results/examples, topics and even production quality of web comics may surprise readers. "Fill in Blanks" + "Several" = Marvel Method One editor or writer issues a single-page concept, grants each artist carte blanche, and then fills in dialog blanks. This allows the staff to not worry about the writer focusing on one book, but rather several with fleeting notions that the staff then contribute towards. It also encourages brisker artistic flair, but might also publish only "successful experiments". This allows for a productive and even fulfilling process, but the generals must see eye-to-eye with the editor/writer/showrunner/sovereign and on the same page in airtight fashion. Otherwise, a few protests here, a refusal there, and finally a backlash will break the theater of war down and make this look like a dog taking a dump on stage during a trick. If anything: try to be on time. For the rest of us: don't expect an airtight schedule. Don't worry about if it's a product you will receive as a backer--seeing a project finished, for either party, is a spine-tingling sensation.
Thanks for the insight Senpai, I myself am getting a nice chunk of proof of concept completed before i go to others. Probably better for a small low budget writer like myself, especially since my drawing is a$$
Never really got super into most of the CG creators admittedly, but I did get really into Ya Boy Zack before. I've found his attitude to be extremely juvenile both times this has arisen as controversy. He's consistently late beyond when he says the books will be ready by, and while he does make it a mission to make sure everything gets out, he has a tendency to start new projects while others are well-overdue. His CUSTOMERS which he claims are always right are sometimes made fun of by the man himself. No matter how many times this comes up he digs his heels in and refuses to adapt his business model to shifts in demand. He'll say even though he has five other projects open, that a sixth won't interfere with his workload because he's waiting on processes he doesn't have control over. The problem is that most of those projects are CONSISTENTLY OVERDUE. In just about any other business he'd be out of a job. Increasingly we're seeing a shift in crowdfunded comics to having books ready by the time the campaign begins, yet for someone who claims to be in-tune with the market, he's resistant to change. He claims the campaigns are part of the experience and rationalizes excessively-long wait times by saying shit like "You forget about it, and then it shows up one day like a nice surprise!" Customers should not be forgetting they ordered their items. He finds every excuse he can to justify a completely static business model. This isn't even to mention how most of his books are obscenely overpriced for what you get. I understand this has to do with economies of scale, but perks and milestone rewards are quite frankly shit, but the books are tiny. I'm surprised if they're even the size of a standard trade paperback. To his credit he does communicate every step of the way, but he's said multiple times that funds from previous projects fund his process on the following ones. I'm wondering if this is true, considering the time between fulfillment and the campaign closing most of the time. To sum up we've got someone stubborn who will make fun of his own customers (sound familiar?), find every excuse to avoid adapting, fulfill consistently late, sometimes by years, under-deliver, and act like the bees' knees while doing all of that. Is this standard for most CG talent?
I think that one shold a least have their storyboard (that costs no money to write down) done before crowdfonding. It makes sense to crowdfnd the art, cover, printing etc of the book, but the story shold be done before the funding starts
I'm currently waiting to get my book done before I try anything in regards to printing. I don't know if I should go to crowdfunding, as I'm not even quite sure HOW that works, but we'll see. Still got one more chapter to color first.
If you are crowdfunding a comic your story should pretty much be figured out and the characters and art style should be pretty much solidified at least. It would also be preferable if a decent amount of the actual comic was created too either by already having it all sketched out only needing the inking, colouring and lettering or have a certain amount of pages already completely done depending on how you are handling the project. People have simply been burned too much by crowdfunding campaigns that either didn't deliver, delivered late or were not up to the quality promised.
I started one on webtoon and I had to stop after the first chapter because of multiple reasons but I'll come back and do all of it as soon as possible because there is people waiting for it and that makes me both sad because I feel I've disappointed everyone but as well makes me want to keep doing it
You finished your comic book... So it's just one... I mean well done. I once knew a man that managed to walk a CM before another man could walk 20 miles... I could shit on a piece of paper and call it a comic and then act proud and claim "duuuuuuh I finushed myne duuuuuuuH" Well done, you! It took years to film Lord of the Rings. Which went through delays. And they filmed back to back... Along with the costs that were rising and worrying New Line. There were no delays in the fiming of Birds of Prey and the whole movie was filmed in under 6 weeks.... Some graphic novels and comics get delayed ... But like with Neil Gaiman's crossover work it was worth the wait. Others are like yours. But check you out comparing yourself to others. Question: Do you honestly see the Untitled Goose Game and Final Fantasy 7 remake as being similar in terms of effort and time needed? And you finished it all? Every aspect? That is really bad... In creative media we are told to iterate ... And with art you really need to... If you are the artist you also need an editor as sometimes what you've done wont make sense to a reader and an editor is literally for that... An author or writer can be gifted with words and prose but their structure can be all over the place and literally you have an editor for that... I am guessing you got a proof reader in? And you've done localisation... If you have finished... For example you have checked all your words and not done a Hasbro and tried to release a transformer in the UK that is using a slur that doesn't appear in the USA? Or do a Mazda releasing the MR-2 in France without checking and not realising what it sounds like phonetically in French? and I am guessing you've also done all legal checks and also gotten a lawyer... And I am guessing you have registered your ip? And cause you have done all that I guess you are paying an accountant and pay your taxes? And just in case they miss something you have the solvency to deal with any civil claim made against you in regards to likeness? Why lie though? You have done fuck all. Your comment is valid if you are someone that got big from it... But that is like someone that plays sunday league giving tips on how to be a footballer in the prem.... You aren't a comic book artist, inker, writer, editor. If you filmed yourself wanking it wouldn't make you a pornstar. Just the same way as if you are an extra in GOT you can't claim you're a hollywood actor... I mean I have ran to the shop many times... Doesn't make me Usain fucking Bolt. Hate to tell you this, dude... But if you haven't made it by your mid 40s you aren't gonna.
@@razerow3391 nice trolling. Attacking an individual clearly shows the jealousy you have for a person who accomplished something that you did not. But I do appreciate the fine effort to troll.
The reason I view now that a comic coming to crowdfunding should be about halfway complete shows serious investment from the creators. I've been burned a bunch and others have me upset at my investment because they start and finish new projects and ship them out before the one I've invested in. I feel like they took my money and ran off.
See, I'm incapable of finishing my comics prior to crowdfunding because I need to hire an illustrator for it. But the entire outline is done. What bothers me is when people crowdfund they have far too many with unacceptable delays.
Personally, I think the basic comic crowd-funding campaign should at least include a short pilot chapter of their comic available to be read for free so that backers will have enough glimpse to see the quality of story-telling and art they will be paying for, as opposed to downright asking people for their money by just telling what the series is going to be about, with very little character design sketches and stuff.
I'm in the camp of having the comic done before the campaign. This way you can have beta readers, and fix anything that need to be done. One thing I'm doing when I'm ready to post my project on Indiegogo, is having 100 books already done. It's going to be my first project, so I want to show that I can get everything done.
@@torukmakto2367 It might seem like a lot of books, but it would give me stock to send out for review, sell via the campaign. If I need more, then that would be a good problem to have.If not, I would have some to sell at conventions.
I don't know if it is reasonable to crowdfund a finished project. If it is finished, you already spent the production costs. Just self publish. I'm a strong proponent of self publishing. I'm not into crowdfunding at all. I prefer to buy the product.
1)If ur veteran or have experienced on writing comic or manga ur most likely to get crowdfunded causes u have a audiences. 2)If ur new well at least make 10 chapter to proof ur work and skill or keep trying to build audiences and improve everything u know to get crowdfund.
There is a contradiction to that point. People who have funded veteran or experienced creators have gotten delayed numerous times BECAUSE the sheer size of an audience will fund something regardless of time limitations. New people struggle to get any kind of early funding because veteran or experienced people have shaped the current attitudes of crowdfunding as a result of delays. You want to hold new people more accountable than those who have the capital to make the book WITHOUT crowdfunding entirely, thats kinda bs imo, but its your dime.
NO! Not finish... Get to what is called the "least viable product" in other words to the point where you could release your work and still be happy. Same as games and other stuff... A finished comic isn't what you think it is!!!!!!! Finished isn't finished until actually printed! You should only do a kickstarter for advertising, gaining data for gauging interest and for additional content. With a game you should do a kickstarter if you want but the games life shouldn't be dependent on that investment. And you should have something that could already be released as a product... But their is a difference between say... Deltaruin and say.... Witcher 3. It's okay to only have Deltaruin and do a campaign wanting to add more to the game.
![Method Writing: The First Four Concepts - Jack Grapes [FULL INTERVIEW]](/img/n.gif)
The fact is that a certain few creators have burned us by promising their books done at a certain time and then being drastically late. I'll wait two years if you SAY that it will take two years. But if you are so irresponsible and condescending towards your customers that you think they'll just wait because of your name alone or because the art will be coooool, you have another thing coming. It doesn't help that a certain creator thinks it's somehow more fun to get your book late. Again, as far as I can tell, it's more about having a realistic time table and less about crowdfunding vs buying from a store.
So you would rather have something sloppy and on time than perfect but delayed?
Fuck me... In the gaming industry it's a famous quote that nobody remembers if a game was delayed but they sure as hell remember that it was shit. So nobody remember Witcher 3 got delayed when released but everyone remembers the Cyberpunk release...
Also by your logic if you get bitten by a dog that makes it alright to distrust all dogs... That's pretty pathetic. Have you heard of the term "anecdotal" ... That is what your experience is at best and ignorant at worst.
Could not agree more. At least the script roughly finished and some of the art done before starting the crowdfunding process.
I’ve always viewed crowd-funding as an investment. I’m not shopping for the book- I’m, for lack of a better word, a producer that’s helping to make this thing happen.
I personally don’t mind waiting a little longer for a project like a comic if it means that the creator doesn’t rush to put out a book that’s not their best work; that they underestimated how much they wanted to put into the story. Art can get away from you like that. But I can also see why some people would feel cheated if the promised delivery date of the project just kept getting pushed back and pushed back and…
It’s not an easy spot to be in, but I’m definitely taking notes from all of this in case I ever do have the guts to self-publish my own stories.
It should be ready immediately, or at the very least be finished 6 months after. It’s ridiculous waiting 2 years for a 60 page comic, my god that’s beyond slow.
Yeah why wait for something to be ready?! We all know better to rush something than delay... That is why Cyberpunk is a better game than Witcher 3 which got delayed. Or like how musicians that release music every month are the best... Or like with Authors... I mean the likes of Terry Pratchett took sometimes 3 years to write a book! Whereas Katy Price can knock one out in 3 months! She is much better.
I mean yeah it's slow... But that is art for you... I mean it took 5 years to paint the sistene chapel...
But hey, we all know pop tarts and hot pockets are better meals than say... Christmas Dinner. Way more filling and way more mixed diet. Christmas Dinner takes too long. Pop tarts. Bam.
only in 2022 would you honestly get weebs offended by LOTR on Amazon and then in the same breath get annoyed by things being delayed in creative media...
Solid advice. Pragmatic, pointed and pluralistic
I agree. I think the story should be fully thought out before you launch a crowdfunding campaign, not just because that way you’ll know it’s good, but it guarantees the person is passionate about the work and will finish it. As a writer (not a comicbook writer though) I can say all of the stories I gave up on were ones that I didn’t have an ending for.
Erm quick question... So it should have already gotten to a publisher and had an editor go over it... Meaning the crowdfunding wasn't needed cause the comic already has a publisher and they have an editor which is literally one of the reasons you want crowdfunding....
@@razerow3391 wait are you replying to me because that’s not what I said
I think you are missing the problem people are having with crowdfunding. If your campaign ends and it takes 4 months for you to ship, that is not a problem if you told the backers it would take 4 months. If you are up front, the backers know what they are getting into. It also helps if the comic gets updates with pictures showing progress. The problem people are having is when you don't have a ship date, no progress shown and its just out there. People will forgive 1 month, maybe 2-3 months. But some are 1 year late. Then you see the artist doing 5+ hour live streams talking to friends about stupid shit. (No names...Ethan). The backers just want a good faith try to bring stuff to them in a timely manner.
I think you are missing the point of creative media.
Better to have a good product ship late than a bad one ship on time... Witcher 3 v Cyberpunk... One game was actually heavily delayed... The other was Cyberpunk and perhaps should have been delayed by a year or two....
I think some of you see art as like working in Wally World... Stacking shelves isn't like drawing... How ignorant.
Yes how dare an artist draw outside of a comic kickstarter... If they are working on a comic that is what they should only do cause that doesn't cause burnout in us creative types... Honest...
But you are right... Next time I am in the USA and in Maccies I will scream at you for taking my money but yet taking forever to give me my Big Mac meal.... I paid! What's the fucking delay? What do you mean you are "busy" of course you are busy, its fucking maccies! When are you not busy, you min wage goontard. Fuck me. Hurry up, scrub. Some of us have places to be! ... I joke. I wouldn't do that to your colleagues. Cause I understand life isn't mechanical and things go wrong and delays happen.
Honestly you'd expect you paedophile weeb cunts to be more chill... One min you are raging... Next min you are wanting to sexually abuse kids... Then you are crying over something... Honestly... Y'all are like members of the Smith family.
I do love the fact though that Tool can take 7 years on an album and it be classed as one of the best in rock history (Lateralus) and yet artists can't even take 12 months... HA. My God why is my gen so disposable. Disposable ethics, values, dreams and empathy.
Never look up how long the Sistine Chapel took to paint. And that was under 350 people!!! I mean thats a lot of time to spend per person.... And that was something pre internet so didn't have to worry about literally the whole world being able to see it....
@@razerow3391 Um...I'm an artist. I know how drawing works. It's my job.
Good point! Lateness can be a big problem cause it causes distrust between the backers and the creators.
It can be difficult to be on time in some cases. Life happens. All the more reason to have good planning, and allow some wiggle room when you set the deadline.
@@razerow3391 you had kind of a point until you started calling people pedophiles
The REAL problem with Kickstarter and 'Early access' paradigms is that once the creative parties realize they've _already_ received most of the money they would have made, the _incentive_ to finish just isn't there. I can think of one large comic project that I believe STILL hasn't been finished after a couple of years, and yet, the artist has time to go on UA-cam and Social Media and complain about all the people complaining. Maybe get off Social Media and actually FINISH the job you've been PAID FOR? I am not dissing the creatives, its just human nature. You won't chase money you've already made.
I think the main point of crowdfunding is determining early on if the idea is something people would want to buy into, given that there are sample pages to give a taste of what exactly is in it. It seems kind of silly to completely finish something, then as you're marketing it, people are just scratching their heads thinking "what even is this". This example probably fits most with creators who haven't established their brand with a prior book, compared to a creator who did and should have an idea as to how to conduct their workflow/timing.
All in all, hold previously established people to a higher standard than someone trying to get something new off the ground for the first time.
For myself it doesn't have to be finished as in it's ready to go as soon as the campaign starts but maybe around 60 to 70% done and by the end of the campaign 90%. If you have time to make splash pages and poster art for the campaign page to intrigue people to give their money then at least be settled on the story and scripting and you've started drawing. I understand if something catastrophic can happen that delays things (been there done that) but I don't want to wait 2 plus years for fulfillment and in the meantime the campaigner has started a new campaign.
'In Search of Hannibal' is what I'm waiting for from Kickstarter.
A little _TalkieTalk_ with the ole Dannphan
...classic
I agree. I like the idea of having 1 prototype book to take into printers ready to go before you start funding.
If I were to launch a book, I'd make sure that the waiting period is no longer than 6 months. Preferably 3.
As a backer, I can wait as long as it takes.
Either way, the script must be finished before the campaign begins. Unless you are established and you know what you're doing. Most famous example: Ethan Van Sciver.
Then again there's Cecil, but in that case I'm suing him if he DOES deliver. We were promised a cash grab and by George, we had better get one.
I agree with both sides of the argument people forget about variables but you should get it to your consumer asap
i agree with your method, that way people arent waiting too long and you can work on any stretch goals you can think of instead of piling more work onto yourself "now i have to finish the book AND goals 1 through 3 by so and so date" nothing drains the passion from a project like making it into work.
i think its a great way to judge interest in your project and pay for publishing costs without having to sell out to a big company that will just steal your idea if you dont read the fine print hard enough, or completely take over your project and change it into something you cant even recognize.
I guess the creators who have the most flexibility when it comes to having something to show before the crowdfunding is completed, are those who either have the funds to invest beforehand or those who can draw and write their book themselves.
Even if you have the ability it isn't that easy. People have to live and tools cost money. When you employ a builder the cost of supplies are separate... Us "creatives" don't pass that on. Yet Adobe CC costs money... ZBrush and 3DS Max all cost money. And people say "there is free software" and yes... There is ... But it can only take you so far. If you want to be a 3d animator then Maya with the Renderman plug-in is where it is at... Yes you can use Blender ... But should you get a call to the big leagues of Pixar or Dreamworks you will be fucked because Blender is nothing like Maya, Cinema 4d, 3ds max, etc. And also you need a mix. I use blender but also use substance for textures... I use Maya for rigging and animation.. I use ZBrush for scultp... Now go look at the costs.
Look at it this way... When a kickstarter for say... A board game... They don't have anywhere near the costs a comic or games designer has. They literally just need to prototype and then get a factory to make their item.... Honestly ... I have to pay for Zbrush, Adobe CC with substance, Maya, 3DS Max, and others! Add them all up and it's quite the amount. Maya and 3DS max on their own are fucking expensive.
So sometimes the money is needed at different stages. The same way as a builder will demand payment at different milestones or points in development. It's almost like creating something from nothing is harder work than those people that say "do you wanna go large" or "your seat is down there and to the left, 4th row" .... It's almost like that's the trade off for doing something we love - financial instability and a lack of empathy from the people we do it for....
But you are right. Us creatives should listen to the fans more... *looks at old emails from used to work for a big dev* So... Like this email here about abuse on forums from HR and about ignoring... Should I ignore that and go read all the deaththreats made by the lovely and understanding fans?
I do love the fact that so many weebs are getting bent out of shape of this stuff... Such great moralistic gymnastics at play... Where they condemn a person for being bad (delaying a comic) whilst also having storage drives filled with anime that is questionable. Aaaaah I cannot wait to Hentai is fully banned. Should be. You paedophile scum disgust me.
So yeah it's bad when delays happen but life happens... No excuse ever for wanting to sexually abuse children though and only one real punishment that should exist for paedophile weeb scum.... And it has a primer and firing pin involved.
Best time of my life was hurting my knuckles on the Otaku Society... I don't condone violence ... Unless they are paedophiles.
Yeah waiting on a book you might never get is not a great experience. I’ve had a experience where I crowd funded a book that had many samples eluding to it being halfway done. Never got the book, never heard back from creator and now they got a new crowd fund for the follow up to the first I never got.
That sucks! D:
Im too small...and maybe too passionate about too many of my projects. From cars I restore, to books Ive written, to comics (which were a MAJOR flop), animation work...
Too much love will kill you - Freddie Mercury (1788 Colorized)
I would say 75% for art-based projects, depending on how expansive the project is. For something more the size of a novel I would go lower, like 50%. Projects that require a more expensive investment in materials you only need a _working_ prototype. Lots of people have great ideas, but they don't have the willpower to see them through (I know this because I am an artist that never finishes anything - I have turned down paid-for projects because I know myself).
I can understand if they don't have much beyond some concept art if they aren't the artist for the comic and they are hoping the crowdfunding would help pay for an artist. But they should have a script down at least and some rough concept art at least, maybe pay out of pocket to have a cover or some promo art done and explain that once funded you can get the artist to do the pages as well or something.
So, what you're getting at is, "Whoops, my phone dinged twice during my shoot!" (4:35)
Anyway, crowd-funding is the decentralized wild west frontier right now. For projects: do them one at a time--never overreach without staff or committed interest. While solo, track every expense; treat this as a business from the start. Do like "Abobo's Big Adventure" and schedule project development posts.
If your workflow accomplishes something every day at no severe cost, then you are ready to crowd-fund and hire staff. Do the crowd-funding only when you wish to staff the project or pay a printer for material and feelies. Never make unkeepable promises.
Once you have a staff, you are also a boss and must act like one. Take a deep breath. Treat comic production as an industry. Here, you have a cross-shaped grid with "One" or "Several" participants using an "In Advance" or "Fill-in-Blank" script structure.
In Advance: Iron out details before any step (somewhat linear).
Fill-in-Blank: Convey general idea, get the others to chime in and return for completion.
One: A versatile, solitary author--editor optional.
Several: A retinue of specialists--singular vision optional.
"In Advance" + "Several" = Industry Standard / DC
Conceptualize & write a script in advance, then the artists take a stab. Writers become a major contributor and bottleneck in tandem. It also receives at least two editorial passes: one before artwork and another once you sketched (but not inked) it all.
If nothing clicks by then, or what clicks comes into dispute, lots of effort gets scrapped (still better than getting pulped or even released).
"In Advance" + "One" = Serial Manga
The do-it-yourself self-starter--no further staff input--which requires a versatile, determined & consistent author. Two strips or one page per day is ideal. Serial Manga uses a wave-like hook or premise full of iterative promise and borderline platitudinal archetypes with planned or expected endings, allowing for ease of procuring and conveying subject matter.
"Fill in Blanks" + "One" = Web Comic
Far less focused and more self-indulgent than the rest, the Web Comic's elimination of conventional publishing processes implies a disregard of standards. The author conjures the subject in an organic fashion with an inefficient workflow. Despite the many horrible results/examples, topics and even production quality of web comics may surprise readers.
"Fill in Blanks" + "Several" = Marvel Method
One editor or writer issues a single-page concept, grants each artist carte blanche, and then fills in dialog blanks. This allows the staff to not worry about the writer focusing on one book, but rather several with fleeting notions that the staff then contribute towards. It also encourages brisker artistic flair, but might also publish only "successful experiments".
This allows for a productive and even fulfilling process, but the generals must see eye-to-eye with the editor/writer/showrunner/sovereign and on the same page in airtight fashion. Otherwise, a few protests here, a refusal there, and finally a backlash will break the theater of war down and make this look like a dog taking a dump on stage during a trick.
If anything: try to be on time. For the rest of us: don't expect an airtight schedule. Don't worry about if it's a product you will receive as a backer--seeing a project finished, for either party, is a spine-tingling sensation.
Thank you! Very informative!
Thanks for the insight Senpai, I myself am getting a nice chunk of proof of concept completed before i go to others. Probably better for a small low budget writer like myself, especially since my drawing is a$$
Never really got super into most of the CG creators admittedly, but I did get really into Ya Boy Zack before. I've found his attitude to be extremely juvenile both times this has arisen as controversy. He's consistently late beyond when he says the books will be ready by, and while he does make it a mission to make sure everything gets out, he has a tendency to start new projects while others are well-overdue. His CUSTOMERS which he claims are always right are sometimes made fun of by the man himself. No matter how many times this comes up he digs his heels in and refuses to adapt his business model to shifts in demand.
He'll say even though he has five other projects open, that a sixth won't interfere with his workload because he's waiting on processes he doesn't have control over. The problem is that most of those projects are CONSISTENTLY OVERDUE. In just about any other business he'd be out of a job. Increasingly we're seeing a shift in crowdfunded comics to having books ready by the time the campaign begins, yet for someone who claims to be in-tune with the market, he's resistant to change. He claims the campaigns are part of the experience and rationalizes excessively-long wait times by saying shit like "You forget about it, and then it shows up one day like a nice surprise!" Customers should not be forgetting they ordered their items. He finds every excuse he can to justify a completely static business model.
This isn't even to mention how most of his books are obscenely overpriced for what you get. I understand this has to do with economies of scale, but perks and milestone rewards are quite frankly shit, but the books are tiny. I'm surprised if they're even the size of a standard trade paperback. To his credit he does communicate every step of the way, but he's said multiple times that funds from previous projects fund his process on the following ones. I'm wondering if this is true, considering the time between fulfillment and the campaign closing most of the time.
To sum up we've got someone stubborn who will make fun of his own customers (sound familiar?), find every excuse to avoid adapting, fulfill consistently late, sometimes by years, under-deliver, and act like the bees' knees while doing all of that.
Is this standard for most CG talent?
That's a good topic to talk about! :)
I think that one shold a least have their storyboard (that costs no money to write down) done before crowdfonding. It makes sense to crowdfnd the art, cover, printing etc of the book, but the story shold be done before the funding starts
I'm currently waiting to get my book done before I try anything in regards to printing. I don't know if I should go to crowdfunding, as I'm not even quite sure HOW that works, but we'll see. Still got one more chapter to color first.
Whatever a creator's situation, they should always have the script (not just the story) finished before doing a crowdfunding campaign.
You can't make me-
Oh wait nevermind
Hey dannphan, can you do a review of Claymores the manga? :B
If you are crowdfunding a comic your story should pretty much be figured out and the characters and art style should be pretty much solidified at least. It would also be preferable if a decent amount of the actual comic was created too either by already having it all sketched out only needing the inking, colouring and lettering or have a certain amount of pages already completely done depending on how you are handling the project.
People have simply been burned too much by crowdfunding campaigns that either didn't deliver, delivered late or were not up to the quality promised.
I started one on webtoon and I had to stop after the first chapter because of multiple reasons but I'll come back and do all of it as soon as possible because there is people waiting for it and that makes me both sad because I feel I've disappointed everyone but as well makes me want to keep doing it
I finished my comic before I posted my campaign. The purpose for me is to build an audience.
You finished your comic book... So it's just one... I mean well done. I once knew a man that managed to walk a CM before another man could walk 20 miles...
I could shit on a piece of paper and call it a comic and then act proud and claim "duuuuuuh I finushed myne duuuuuuuH"
Well done, you!
It took years to film Lord of the Rings. Which went through delays. And they filmed back to back... Along with the costs that were rising and worrying New Line.
There were no delays in the fiming of Birds of Prey and the whole movie was filmed in under 6 weeks....
Some graphic novels and comics get delayed ... But like with Neil Gaiman's crossover work it was worth the wait.
Others are like yours.
But check you out comparing yourself to others.
Question: Do you honestly see the Untitled Goose Game and Final Fantasy 7 remake as being similar in terms of effort and time needed?
And you finished it all? Every aspect? That is really bad... In creative media we are told to iterate ... And with art you really need to... If you are the artist you also need an editor as sometimes what you've done wont make sense to a reader and an editor is literally for that... An author or writer can be gifted with words and prose but their structure can be all over the place and literally you have an editor for that... I am guessing you got a proof reader in? And you've done localisation... If you have finished... For example you have checked all your words and not done a Hasbro and tried to release a transformer in the UK that is using a slur that doesn't appear in the USA? Or do a Mazda releasing the MR-2 in France without checking and not realising what it sounds like phonetically in French?
and I am guessing you've also done all legal checks and also gotten a lawyer... And I am guessing you have registered your ip? And cause you have done all that I guess you are paying an accountant and pay your taxes? And just in case they miss something you have the solvency to deal with any civil claim made against you in regards to likeness?
Why lie though? You have done fuck all. Your comment is valid if you are someone that got big from it... But that is like someone that plays sunday league giving tips on how to be a footballer in the prem.... You aren't a comic book artist, inker, writer, editor. If you filmed yourself wanking it wouldn't make you a pornstar. Just the same way as if you are an extra in GOT you can't claim you're a hollywood actor... I mean I have ran to the shop many times... Doesn't make me Usain fucking Bolt.
Hate to tell you this, dude... But if you haven't made it by your mid 40s you aren't gonna.
@@razerow3391 nice trolling.
Attacking an individual clearly shows the jealousy you have for a person who accomplished something that you did not.
But I do appreciate the fine effort to troll.
The reason I view now that a comic coming to crowdfunding should be about halfway complete shows serious investment from the creators. I've been burned a bunch and others have me upset at my investment because they start and finish new projects and ship them out before the one I've invested in. I feel like they took my money and ran off.
See, I'm incapable of finishing my comics prior to crowdfunding because I need to hire an illustrator for it. But the entire outline is done. What bothers me is when people crowdfund they have far too many with unacceptable delays.
Personally, I think the basic comic crowd-funding campaign should at least include a short pilot chapter of their comic available to be read for free so that backers will have enough glimpse to see the quality of story-telling and art they will be paying for, as opposed to downright asking people for their money by just telling what the series is going to be about, with very little character design sketches and stuff.
If you cannot put your product out on time, then you have failed as a business. End of discussion.
I'm in the camp of having the comic done before the campaign. This way you can have beta readers, and fix anything that need to be done.
One thing I'm doing when I'm ready to post my project on Indiegogo, is having 100 books already done. It's going to be my first project, so I want to show that I can get everything done.
That's a lot of books ; )
@@torukmakto2367 It might seem like a lot of books, but it would give me stock to send out for review, sell via the campaign. If I need more, then that would be a good problem to have.If not, I would have some to sell at conventions.
@@Setoyami Ok, so I think you mean 100 'copies'. Sounded like you were creating 100 original books of a series...which would be wild.
Is it okay to start if I've only finalized the writing of one whole volume, or should the series be completed first?
I don't know if it is reasonable to crowdfund a finished project.
If it is finished, you already spent the production costs. Just self publish.
I'm a strong proponent of self publishing.
I'm not into crowdfunding at all. I prefer to buy the product.
All Hail the Squib Nation!
1)If ur veteran or have experienced on writing comic or manga ur most likely to get crowdfunded causes u have a audiences.
2)If ur new well at least make 10 chapter to proof ur work and skill or keep trying to build audiences and improve everything u know to get crowdfund.
There is a contradiction to that point. People who have funded veteran or experienced creators have gotten delayed numerous times BECAUSE the sheer size of an audience will fund something regardless of time limitations.
New people struggle to get any kind of early funding because veteran or experienced people have shaped the current attitudes of crowdfunding as a result of delays. You want to hold new people more accountable than those who have the capital to make the book WITHOUT crowdfunding entirely, thats kinda bs imo, but its your dime.
@@LeonBelmont1000 U have really good point
Finished product before starting crowdfunding? Sounds more like pre-selling than crowdfunding.
even half way round the world.....if i like the idea hearing it from creator's same face, i fund it
NO!
Not finish... Get to what is called the "least viable product" in other words to the point where you could release your work and still be happy.
Same as games and other stuff... A finished comic isn't what you think it is!!!!!!! Finished isn't finished until actually printed! You should only do a kickstarter for advertising, gaining data for gauging interest and for additional content.
With a game you should do a kickstarter if you want but the games life shouldn't be dependent on that investment. And you should have something that could already be released as a product... But their is a difference between say... Deltaruin and say.... Witcher 3. It's okay to only have Deltaruin and do a campaign wanting to add more to the game.