That some people can't even see the erdtree blew my mind. All this time I've been playing, I just assumed the giant glowing tree in the distance was something that everyone could see.
Makes sence why they do cast those without grace out, it works like the green googles for the emerald city If the theory that the true erd tree has been burnt already and the gold part is just a projection, the ones that can't see it would be pointing non stop that 'the emperor has no clothes'
Reminds me of that dialogue from Boc in Leyndell... he's gushing in awe, asking us if we had seen the Erdtree yet. I always thought it was weird since we've been able to see the Erdtree ever since we stepped foot in Limgrave, but perhaps that was Boc's first time catching a glimpse of the trunk.
@@UltraStarWarsFanatic Oh wow, good observation. To Boc even the stump would be an awe-inspiring sight, given the stories he likely grew up with of the erdtree's magnificence. He wouldn't know any better.
The line: "Even now, runes are still imbued with the power of life itself. Do you see the Erdtree towering o'er?" [Golden Rune 3-5] is indeed extremely perplexing if given a single second of attention. Lucky for us, TA has made a channel dedicated to paying attention to just these things!
The whole idea of “guidance of grace” is odd. That you would need help locating Leyndell when you can just walk in the direction of the giant glowing tree you can see from everywhere. That is only if you can see it.
There are a few channels making truly excellent Elden Ring lore content, but even among them TTA's are just something else entirely, so I 100% agree with this statement.
Also want to tip my cap to you Smoughtown. You’re exhaustive work on the literary descriptions and tidying everything up together is fantastic. It makes TA’s work glow even more as he fills in those crucial details that the word doesn’t cover, tying everything together. Same tree, different stump, one root.
Imagine being someone living in liurnia after the moon and the erdtree were joined, and converting to erdtree worship. Suddenly you see this gigantic, monolithic golden tree where there was nothing before. It reaches so high as to nearly touch the clouds. The feeling of awe would be unimaginable.
I still can't shake the feeling that Gransax is the key to the first burning of the Erdtree. He's such a massive presence in Leyndell's visual storytelling that it's unbelievable that he didn't accomplish something important. The city's walls fell for the first and last time, and then...? Nothing in particular happened? The responsible party died where he stood without so much as an explanation? *Really?* It also reminds me of a certain promethean myth from GRRM's other work, A Song of Ice and Fire. The folk hero of the Iron Islands, the Grey King, provoked a malevolent Storm God into striking a Weirwood tree with a lightning bolt, setting it ablaze. It was at that moment that humanity was given the gift of fire, or so the story goes... A "tree of life," a "stormcaller," a "storm entity" with a "lightning bolt," and then... the fire of the gods. It's all very familiar. And truly, what better place to find a promethean myth, than a world where fire itself has been sealed away by God? And what better reason could there be for Gransax to kamikaze Leyndell with a great lightning bolt-- one of legendary status, and indeed the only weapon we ever see a dragon carry-- than to bring fire back to the world? It's like Prometheus carrying the torch to mankind, at great cost to himself...
I think that fits much better with the available information than the timeline TA seems to be proposing here. We know that Lightning Fortification (which is an Erdtree Worship Incantation) was used in the Ancient Dragon War, and we know that Godwyn fought in the Ancient Dragon War. So, the Shattering marking the end of the Age of Plenty as TA is suggesting just doesn’t work. However, if we mark the end of the Age of Plenty with Gransax burning the Erdtree, and the Great Dragon War as the transition between the Age of Plenty and the Erdtree Worship era, the sequence of events makes much more sense.
@@aparker91j Also recall the incantation that Placidusax uses, the one that is reminiscent of the Bolt of Gransax. The bolt is pierced into the ground, and then lightning comes down from the heavens, triggering a massive explosion. Perhaps this incantation is playing out a memory of the calamity that covered Leyndell in ash.
@@UltraStarWarsFanatic so gransax hit Leyndell with the lightning atomic bomb move plasidusax uses? The mental movie I’m watching rn is too epic to not be what the writers wanted
@@user-ns4zm8qe9p Wow. I actually just went back to see a video of the animation after reading your comment, and noticed something. When the explosion hits, several lightning bolts fly up in all directions. For a moment, it actually looks like tree branches engulfed by fire. Probably a coincidence, but a very cool visual. Video : Elden Ring That One Placidusax Attack.
I really have to disagree that Marika church statues are all post her imprisonment, even if the pose is the same. That pose is very specific to her and seems to have always been part of her iconography. Its the pose evoking the crowning top rune of the Elden Ring. First of all, its doubtful anyone entered the Erdtree after the shattering and her/Radagons/ imprisonment, at least until our character does it. So its doubtful anyone saw her in that condition. And her whereabouts are in fact mentioned a mystery for a lot of people. Enia is the only one who knows her fate, but she could have just been informed by the Two Fingers. Second, hers and Radagons statue in Layndell uses the same model, and it had to have been made during the time when both her and Radagon were still active as rulers of Layndell, as evidence by giant turtle Miriel and his dialogue that gives the hint about the statues secret and the entire Radagon is Marika plot point. edit: spelling
Yeah, I was raising an eyebrow at that one too. I think her imprisonment/crucifixion pose being the same as her... blessing of the Erdtree (?) pose is more a case of dramatic irony.
TA is pretty subtle about it here, but he seems to be proposing an alternative to the commonly accepted timeline. If the shattering is tied to the first burning of the Erdtree, and Radagon doesn’t found Golden Order Fundamentalism until after the Erdtree Worship era, that leaves Marika imprisoned within the Erdtree throughout the whole Erdtree Worship era before Radagon merges with her and his vines seal the entrance.
@@rainbowkrampus Exactly!!! I agree completely. Same here. I mean, I love their content usually, but sometimes I feel some of the things they say is just reaching in order to fit in the video topic.
@@aparker91j True, we never had anything but a vague timeline of events. But that proposition would discount the entire point of Melina's dialogue at the Bedchamber site of grace, where Marika flat out tells Radagon "Let us be shattered both, mine other self." Altho it is completely possible for their thesis of Radagon ruling alone for an entire age of Marika's imprisonment to be vindicated, I still believe the shattering of both of them happened concurrently, or close enough in time. But I agree, It is possible.
@@Alex-mn1fb to be clear, I don’t fully agree with TA’s proposed timeline here; I think putting the shattering before the Erdtree Worship era creates too many conflicts with known events like Godwyn fighting in the Ancient Dragon War. But, I do think the idea of there being a span of time during which Marika was imprisoned within the Erdtree but Radagon had not yet sealed it is entirely plausible. In another comment someone suggested that Radagon’s lattice symbol might be a mending rune that he incorporated into the Elden Ring just as the PC tarnished can do at the end of the game, and I think that’s a pretty compelling idea.
I can't get behind the idea that the erdtree only burned when the elden ring was shattered, because so much of the night of black knives HAS to take place AFTER the Golden Order is solidly established. I think the burning timeline that makes most sense, simplified, is that at the end of the age of plenty, the gloam-eyed queen and her godskin apostles took the black flame to burn the erdtree, which led to Marika sealing away the rune of destined death and founding the Golden Order to rebirth the erdtree as we see it now, _then_ the night of black knives which led to the shattering. As a side note, I think this moment of the first burning is a good candidate for the moment of Radagon's creation, as he's some kind of embodiment of the Golden Order within Marika herself, as well as a living omen about the second burning via the giant's flame by way of his red hair.
@@Xandros999 Melina's strong involvement with burning the erdtree and her insistence on doing so, as well as being 'burned' is the strongest evidence _if_ you assume she's the Gloam-Eyed Queen, as many do.
I agree with you about the timeline. The assassination happened after the rune of death was taken out of the elden ring, which marks the start of the golden order. Then Marika does the actual shattering of the ring.
If all of the Erdtree Incantations were developed after the first burning of the Erdtree, then that first burning can not have been the Shattering. Barrier of Gold's description explicitly states that it was used during the First and Second Liurnian Wars. This means that it was developed before the Marriage Alliance between Radagon and Rennala, This means it was before the births of Ranni, Radahn and Rykard. This means it was before Radagon left Rennala to marry Marika and become Second Elden Lord. This means it was before the birth of Miquella and Melania. Enia tells us that as punishment for the Shattering, Marika was imprisoned in the Erdtree. She has presumably been crucified within the Erdtree ever since the Shattering, as it is stated that she has not been seen since the Elden Ring was Shattered. As a result, I cannot believe that Marika married Radagon and had Miquella and Malenia after the Shattering, while crucified. It would also mean that Morgott, Godrick and Godefroy were the only participants of the Shattering civil war who were even born at the start. There are a few ways of possibly reconciling this. One would be to assume that the first burning of the Erdtree is just a separate event to the Shattering. This means that it likely has nothing to do with Marika giving Melina her purpose of burning the Erdtree, but preserves most of your timeline. Another is to assume that the first burning of the Erdtree is a separate event to the end of the Age of Plenty. The Blessed Dew Talisman states that the Age of the Erdtree "swiftly came to a close." This can have 2 potential meanings: either the Age of Plenty ended in some sudden calamity, such as a great fire burning down the Erdtree; or that the Age of Plenty was relatively a short span of time. The Blessing of the Erdtree incantation states "The Erdtree once flourished with abundance- yet it was only for a fleeting moment. Such is the course of all life." In this description, the Erdtree flourishing is what is described as a fleeting moment. This leads me to believe in the second interpretation - The Age of Plenty as a whole was but a small fraction of the timeline, and so its end was not necessarily some sudden upheaval, but could instead have been more gradual. I believe that the Age of Plenty ended because the Erdtree simply grew old, and stopped producing its life-giving dew. This was of course a problem for the people of the Lands Between, as they relied on the Erdtree for new births and blessings of good health, but it was particularly a problem for Marika, who had risen to power by tying her image to the Erdtree, and establishing herself as the sole distributor of its blessings. As shown in the Crucible statues, many sprouts grew from the great root system under the Lands Between after whatever led to the death and destruction of the previous Great Tree, but Marika had championed a single, specific Golden Scion, and cultivated it into the Erdtree. Presumably, if the Erdtree died, new sprouts would grow again, and the Lands Between would recover. But when the Great Tree died, its God fled, never to be seen again. If the Erdtree died, that would presumably not be good news for Marika. So the Erdtree was dying, and no longer producing blessed sap, or tears. But Marika's power and image of divinity was tied to the Erdtree, and she would not let it die. I believe Marika fostered a religion of faith in the Erdtree in spite of the lack of blessings in return. "That age of plenty swiftly came to a close, and with time, the Erdtree became *more* an object of faith" - the Erdtree was still there, but it was now important not because of what it could actually give to the people, but instead because it was a symbol to worship. It's also possible that the reason Marika chose to seal away the Rune of Death was that she believed doing so might undo the decay of the Erdtree, or at least would prevent further degradation. Much later, grieving the deaths of Godwyn and many of her other kin, Marika finally understood the futility of trying to rule eternally, and accepted that the Erdtree needed to die, so something new could replace it. The Elden Ring was Shattered, and the Erdtree was burned. But the Rune of Death was still sealed, and Radagon, still believing wholeheartedly that the Golden Order was perfect and eternal, repaired what he could of the Elden Ring. The Erdtree still clung to fleeting life, and the Lands Between were left in a state of perpetual limbo.
The connection of the erdtree no longer giving births and the removal of destined death makes a lot of sense. Marika would remove it in order to keep her power, there are no more births and blessings, but there is no more death either. And this doesn't go against the idea of Marika removing it to defeat the Godskin apostles and the Gloam-eye queen. She killed two birds with one stone by removing the rune from the elden ring. The fingers might have even chosen the Gloam-eye queen as a replacement for Marika, seeing how the erdtree could no longer produce blessings and births, the fingers that chose the queen might have seen that it was time to replace her.
The timeline ist defenitiv not good choosen with the Shattering after Erdtree bruning by the TA. Simply the presence of Godwyn and other stuff invalidates this. The describtion telling a "course of all live" looks as a natural way to me too, like a slowly dying Tree. The too early ending of plenty age could have been longer than TA anticipates in this scenario. But i think somewhere around after that time the burning should have happened in the view of the change of believe. -"stopped producing its life-giving dew" this is a magical sentence for me as it imprints the fear of death. For whom? The Demigods. Who sealed away destined death away and when? Probably after this llife threatening decline of the Erdtree. Many new wars where fought, showing the despair. And Radagon as the great repairer of order and the Erdtree itself appeared. Another question is: Was the Erdtree already bruned down when Radagon appeared? Did his "vines" support the great tree or simply a stump? Was the tree burned in his reign, after the hostilities of wars in the declining power of the Erdtree? And yes i think Radagon is the reason why this world is stuck in a meaningless era. (i like the idea that the Erdtree burned in the shattering. One big reason why it is not really mentioned could be the big lack of consistent history writing in chaotic wartimes, like the dark ages. And that Melina, as a kindling gifted demigod, was somhow conected with Ranni, who is partly responsible for the night of the black knifes and the beginning of the Shattering. - But i think the incantations are too strong as reasons why the Erdtree burned earlier. )
Enia is knowledgeable about many things, but that is presumably because she has spent centuries (if not millennia) gleaning the words of the Two Fingers. The same Two Fingers who were completely blind-sided by the fact the Erdtree was sealed off by Radagon.
Your points about Marika make me see her as similar to Gwyn in Dark Souls, since their image is tied to the object of faith at the time and losing it means losing power, they choose to go agains the natural order of events in an attempt to keep control, but in the end it just ended up making matters worse
All good points. I wonder if a lot of the disconnect around some of these specifics at this critical juncture are results from differences between what George RR Martin and Miyazaki wrote. Since Martin was given the current version of the world and then was tasked with creating the previous 5k years of history including a bunch of things that might not have actually made sense given the vague directions from FROM. We also know that they were tweaking huge things about the story and characters right up until release, the most memorable being that Horah Loux used to be Goldmask's name, and all the cut stuff about Trina and dreams (which is likely going to be in the DLC in some form). Even then, I can't think of any FROM game that has it's own ancient history very clear to perfection anyway haha.
Let me tell you that right now, yours is the most interesting channel about Elden Ring, and probably the most interesting in general in my feed. The connections with renaissance, the iconographic references and all, it's a pleasure to learn from this way of investigating
@@golDroger88 Decisamente, sarebbe interessante vedere dei suoi video anche su Dark Souls 3 o Bloodborne, L'unico che ricordo analizzava elementi simili era KazzArmA, che però credo ora abbia questioni più rilevanti di cui occuparsi essendo Ucraino mi pare.
32:00 when you point out that Radagon's hatching design is a trellis it becomes REALLY obvious that the vines are LITERALLY growing on the trellis. it's crazy that it fits so well
As an aspiring anthropologist, what you're doing here is fascinating and exactly what I've been wishing someone would do for this game and series as a whole. Only Paleblood Hunt has had similar levels of analysis. I'm deeply impressed.
There's actually a series by UA-cam creator Charred Thermos that goes even deeper into Bloodborne's lore and inspirations if you're curious. It's called the An Agony of Effort, and discusses at length the state of early medical practice in Edinburg and surrounding territories, and how they were a direct (often 1:1) inspiration for Bloodborne.
The only trouble with this is the fact that in the intro cutscene "Queen Marika is missing." Meaning noone knows where she is. So this means that the statues of her being "crucified" can't be due to her being trapped in the erdtree.
I've considered the possibility that the various prophets, trying to glean her whereabouts, may have seen Marika suspended in the Erdtree and misunderstood the vision. But I haven't even convinced myself of that yet.
To preface the next video about the Fingers, Banished Knights (only the two knights at Castle Sol that wear the umodified version of their chest piece) can actually cast a healing incantation of the Two Fingers on themselves. It's pretty easy to miss if you hadn't fought them dozens of times for said chest piece.
Couldn't you just alter the set from the regular banished knights? I've never tried it but I thought they normally drop as altered and you could just change it to unaltered in the menu. Do you really need to farm it?
@@rainbowkrampus it took me like 2 hours non stop with all the arcane items to get that armour. Best armour in the game though so it’s worth also nobody else wears it
Nice spot - I didn't know this. The Two Fingers' presence is further noticeable in the mountaintops as Giant-Conquering Hero's Grave is lined with flags with the two fingers symbol on them.
Although most of the video is amazing we know for a fact that the shattering didnt happen that early. Because Marika dissapeared right after and the demigods began to war. I agree there was some Erdtree burning, maybe removing the rune of death wasnt as easy as we thought and remving it caused the burning. Also idk where to out the Liurnian wars into the timeline because we know from the turtles Dialogue that right after Godfrey was banished, Radagon married Marika. So Godfrey must have been banished some time after the 2. Liurnian war. This asks the question why he wasnt present in the war though. Maybe they were fighting agaibst the giants at the same time, and thats why Liurnia was able zo defend against Marika and Godfrey and maybe this is why Marika split herself into 2 people so she could fight on 2 fronts. (Imo Marika and Radagon must have been 1 person originally because Radagon somehow had access to a great rune thar he gave to Rennala, The ability of Marikas hammer says it was Radagons signiture move but then why is it MARIKAS hammer and not Radagons hammer, also as the turtle says Radagon was a mere champion and somehow choose as Elden Lord, also sometime after Radagon appears we see Marika doubting the Erdtree etc. And never before probably because he is the part of Marika zhat believed/loved the Golden Order. Also Enia says the demigods each and all are "direct offspring" of queen Marika. This means Radagon must have been Marika otherwise Ranni, Rykard and Radagon wouldnt be direct offspring. I think thed are called demigod stepchildreb in some description because obviously Radagons secret wasnt public so officialy they were just stepchildren.
A couple more points : 1. Rogier speaks of how the Academy of Raya Lucaria once obeyed laws that contravened the Golden Order, but the Golden Order was pliable enough to absorb those practices that contradicted itself in the past. This suggests that the Golden Order existed prior to Golden Order Fundamentalism, which seem to be equated in this video. 2. Marika's spoken echoes about searching the depths of the Golden Order take place at the Church of the Minor Erdtree. This does make it seem like the Minor Erdtrees not only existed, but were objects of worship prior to Marika's imprisonment, as you say.
When I start writing the history of various nations/cultures for my books, I hope that I can be as careful and detailed as From Software's team. Thank you so much for elucidating the niche historical contexts and references that make this lore worth investing in.
I just hope they release what they wrote because now it's difficult to analyze when we don't know exactly what happened... Including the timeline because many people have been disputing about it. I'll buy that book, take my money future press and from soft... I WANT THAT BOOK 😭😭
In my humble opinion, i'd say the "do you see the tree towering over" line is more like a statement of the validity of the erdtree's presence rather than a direct question if you can see it at all
Yep, as in "see that tree towering over?" It's to acknowledge its presence moreso than asking whether I can actually see it. But hey, I'm definitely willing to cut this gentleman some slack, it was clearly a monumentous task to put this video together.
I agree. "You were in Paris? Did you see the Eiffel Tower?!", does not imply that the person asking the question cannot see the Eiffel Tower. There is also a crone that says: "Surely you see it, too? The gold that enshrouds the heavens. The great tree which begets the pillars of light. O Tarnished, hasten to the foot of the tree." Which may hint that not everyone can see the tree, but also, it may simply be a statement of the obvious. "Surely you see the giant metal tower over there, too? Hurry to its base and enter the elevator, and you can dine at the only cafe in Paris where you don't have to look at it anymore". If a statement about the Erdtree can also be applied to the Eiffel Tower it is not a statement that must support the notion of not everyone seeing the Erdtree.
So many Elden Ring lore videos are speculation and projection, but the symbology explored on this channel is so consistent that I find it hard to interpret any other way. This was my first Souls game, and I'm just blown away at how deep the art direction is. Well done.
Dark souls and Bloodborne goes just as deep, hope you can play and enjoy them one day too I'm always glad to see new fans of the series enjoying the deep lore stuff that's so unique to from software's games Cheers man
Great video! Just as a quick aside in regards to the intro, while the synoptic gospels don’t assert Jesus’ divinity as strongly as John’s gospel, there are still plenty of verses that at the very least directly imply Jesus’ divinity, such as when he is worshiped or when he tells a man his sins are forgiven (such acts would have made his divinity claim very clear to the Jews at that time, hence why some groups started to want to kill him for heresy afterwards). For some reason, a historian (I forget who) said there were no divinity claims in the synoptic gospels and lots of people seem to think that’s true.
Thanks for this thoughtful response. Yes we took a bit of a deliberately extreme position in order to serve the parallel with the illusory Erdtree, but we recognize that most practicing Christians would not agree with this claim. As you said, though, no doubt the Synoptic gospels paint a different picture of JC than does John's.
@@tarnishedarchaeologist that'd be nice to note for futur knowledge. There's quite a few claims you mentioned that are either way out there or flat out wrong (like claiming Jesus never said he was divine/humab incarnation of God, there's a few people who already pasted some verses so I'll spare the wall of text), and I def got a bad impression before I read ur reply here lol 😂 This isn't the coming from the position of a religion Karen, I just don't want people seeing fringe opinions and coming to the wrong conclusion about the validity of your research 👍
@@CopeAndSeeth just like your YT handle, your Cope is evident in this comment, TA's analysis of Jesus is extremely spot on, there is no evidence to this date that shows Jesus clearly ever claimed divinity, the claims of divinity have only been added forward by people who wrote their own Bibles such john and paul etc...
There is a strong anti-Christian bias in academic history that TA has unfortunately let taint his studies. He's a good researcher but has clearly never read the early church fathers like the Cappadocians.
The link between the Newtonian laws of gravity and motion and the Golden Order laws of regression and causality blew my mind... The fact that Radagon can symbolize the Vitruvian Man and Jesus Christ at the same time is quite amazing, too. And those in Leyndell are not roots, but VINES, oh man! 25:57 Could this be a suggestion for a future content on the parallel between Renaissance figures and Liurnian ones? Can't wait!
The Golden Order shares a lot with western alchemy. From the visual likeness of the Squared Circle, the symbol of the result of Magnum Opus, the philosopher's stone to the conjunction of Marika and Radagon, based on the Rebis, the end product of the philosopher's stone, following the very on the nose concept of the hermaphroditic Red King and White Queen who birthed the hermaphroditic figure Hermes the Thrice-Greatest (a clear nod to Miquella, who carries a female form as St. Trina)
Holy shit that never occurred to me. That's a super good point. Maybe the other demigods could represent other elements, like Malenia being Rubedo, Ranni being Albedo, and Godwyn, once being Gold, is now Nigredo
@@thundertwonk1090I find it very likely that the three demigods connected to the butterflies young Miquella - nascent butterflies, rotting Malenia - aeonian butterflies, burned and bodyless Melina - smoldering butterfly are the ones connected to the stages of the great work. Nigredo the blackening stage of maximum corruption and rot fits with Malenia. Albedo the burnt ashen white stage free of corruption from the decay fits with Melinas fire theme. Citrinas the golden/yellow transformation into the philosophers stone or gold depending on interpretation fits with Miquella the one closest to Marikas powers of godhood with his own tree and unalloyed gold order. Rubedo the completed product gold/philosophers stone Marika the complete empyrean that achived godhood. If you wonder about why I place Melina as an empyrean then that is her connection to the gloam eyed queen from the previous generation of empyreans along marika. In the frenzied flame ending after you have killed Malekith you not only undoes the seal on destined death you also unlocks Malekiths three clawed beast seal on Melinas eye giving her a gloam eye as she vowes to deliver you destined death so she is connected to her in some way. I don't know if Ranni and Melina have a connection since both lack a physical body, have a closed eye and a connection to Torrent. The symbol under Rannis eye doesn't seem to be Malekiths three claws, it might be the two fingers since the two squiggly lines look a little similar to the three fingers squiggly symbol. They are both weird in another way Ranni was likely the child of only Radagon and not both him and Rennala as his last gift to rennala in the amber egg "let me hold you little ranni". While Melina with "her mother in the erdtree" might be a splintered of part of Marika to free herself like the splinter daughters of Malenia like Millicent. Remember Ranni as an empyrean must be the child of only a god, not a god and a mortal so she can't be the biological daugther of Rennala. In contrast to the twins of both Radagon and Marika they might be the children of only one of each.
Good point! Indeed many common references to Alchemy. The reason we haven't yet cited Alchemy as a source inspiration is because Alchemy itself is a meta-source, many of its elements formed as a compilation of inspirations from existing spiritual and scientific sources. As a craft that was deliberately decentralized and mystic, Alchemy developed a variety of hot takes borrowing from notions in vogue in other human endeavors. Trismegistus is a good example. Whenever Elden Ring's source inspirations can be attributed more specifically to prior holy books or historical events, we chose to cite those when possible. One could add an asterisk in most these cases and say *also referenced subsequently in Alchemy. However, as you suggest, there are specific mergings characteristic to Alchemy, and those will feature soon enough...!
The book of John has multiple examples of Jesus calling himself divine and the son of God, both directly and through the reactions of other people to what he said, though not in so many words. But I think your point about the difference in what he taught and the religion that sprung up around him was interesting. Especially given the 2 and 3 finger schism that happened later, like, that has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, or the rest of the bible.
Indeed, the early Cappadocian fathers wrote about the divinity of Christ so much they directly influenced the Nicene Creed. I get the whole "Comparative Religions" narrative he is running with but it simply isn't entirely true in this case. You can easily go back and read the writing of the early fathers and they are not so different from the gospels.
So that means that just like Fía, The Dung Eater and The Golden Mask; Radagon was an extraordinary person who with his will gave birth to a Mending Rune, his characteristic mark! That explains why it didn't appear before, it's not like the runes of the demigods that Marika distributed to her children taken directly from the Elden Ring, no, the rune of Radagon was created by him and he attached it himself to the Elden Ring!!!
This should be written in huge letters, as it it makes a lot of sense. He is Radagon of the Golden Order, afterall, the most loyal of all Golden Order loyalist and most fundamental of all Golden Order fundamentalists. Yes, I can easily agree that he would sacrifice himself to become a trellis to Elden Ring/Erdtree, both spiritually with his Mending Rune and physically with vines/thorns.
@@hiddenshadow2105 imo he and Marika were 1 person and he was the part of her that had the Ideals and believes of the golden order. So once she cuts of that part of her into a seperta being it makes sense that Radagon is a "leal hound of the order" and Marika starts to "search the depths of the order" and eventually shatters the ring.
No, it's more likely a third type. The demigods have great runes. The tarnished have mending runes. Marika and Radagon have elden runes, as described on their scarseal/soreseal talismans. Perhaps discarding an eye is a prerequisite to discover such a rune, ala Odin in Mimir's well.
The Erdtree appears transparent when looked at from Liurnia, as if it's not really there, and the player character is subject to some sort of force that either influences or opens their mind. Thank you for these incredible explanations - I've been wondering since release. Also, mindblown at Radagon's source of power. Keep it up!
Imagine Gideon Ofnir's perspective. He likely still saw grace until sometime after you defeated Morgott but before you burned the Erdtree. Imagine giving up on the two fingers' quest, having your grace revoked, and suddenly seeing the erdtree for what it truly is, a diseased, dying stump. No wonder he tries to stop us.
No, he simply realized that Marika's actual Elden Lord plan involved a tarnished becoming strong enough to slay a god. Gideon thought this was impossible and you angering whatever that was in that tree would doom everyone.
The question is though: if the Erdtree we see at the beginning of the game is mostly phantom, along with all of its branches and leaves - where does this huge amount of ash come from to cover Leyndell? What is exactly is burning in this burning then if most of the Erdtree is already a phantom? The stump-under-golden-shell remains the same in Mending endings, so what significant mass was burnt in our burning? You cannot burn faith phantoms and get real physical ash. One can argue it is from the vines, but I don't think these vines will be quite enough to cover the whole city in such amount of ash. Another question is: if vines grow upward, why so many of the vines around Erdtree Sanctuary grow downward, very much in appearance like roots?
This is the central question! Even if we buy that the ash in the city is from a previous burning, there has to be *something* there, something significant, to produce so much *more* ash than was there when we first step into Leyndell. I think there was a previous burning in the city, either of a minor erdtree, so there’s not as much ash, or of the Erdtree but the tree survived in some way.
@@schonmpPresumably a prior burning would have been cleaned to some extent. Thus, we do not know that the burning during the game produced more ash than the prior burning-only that it produced enough to bury most of the city. Perhaps the prior burning only burned the canopy, but left much more than a root stump. We assume the stump is all that remains because that’s where the visible gash in the golden sheath ends. But, it could be that the Golden sheath is actually mostly over an intact but branchless trunk, with an opening at the bottom to allow access to the Elden Ring. This would be more structurally sound, after all. Thus, the current golden branches and the sheathing of the trunk are illusion, but the entire trunk (most of the mass of a tree that size) is still there. This is what burns all the way down to the stump, and the illusion dispelled. That would produce ample ash to bury the city again, and does not require that it be more or less ash than the first burning.
All this supposes that as a phantom or spectre the Erdtree somehow isn't still real. This is too limited a view for such a fantasy setting, or even, in some cases, real life. All other spirits and conjurations in the game are also real, able to affect the world and be affected, and even leave 'blood' upon the physical upon death. The Erdtree as we see it is a real entity, even if only some could see it if that is what the game implies, and can still leave real effects on the world, in this case ash in its burning. I also mention that this objectivity is not useful in real life either, as it is becoming more common practice to recognise even hallucinations as real to the people that experience them, say in mental health medicine, and that everyones lives in general are shaped by their own subjective experiences and perceptions. The Erdtree Phantom that burns is still real and still produces ash is the simple answer.
Oh also, another addition as evidence of this concept of even the subjective or percieved being real, the ties TA points out in their video on the Frenzied Flame to a real parasitic disease that causes blindness and also visual hallucinations, and the discussions on how this and other conditions with similar symptoms can affect ones life, ones reality, shows that its absolutely a concept Fromsoftware are exploring in Elden Ring.
Had a thought. Ancestral Spirits constantly sprout even when dead. You can also enter their corpse and into that strange area which I wander has a similarity to how you enter the Erdtree which I'm now starting to view as a spirit.
Having the Golden Order be formed AFTER the shattering makes no sense in a timeline the shattering occurred AFTER the Night of Black Knives which occurred AFTER the removal of the Rune of Death from the elden ring which CAUSED the formation of the Golden Order and Golden Order Fundamentalism so the Golden Order has to have come into being either BEFORE or ALONGSIDE the shattering so the first burning of the Erdtree cannot have occurred before the Golden Order was formed I think something that has to be taken into account is denominational faith and sects assuming a strict progression of one to the other is causing seemingly unmissable timeline errors
Agreed, there are certainly progressions, but the strict timeline he is forcing based on imagery rather than on our knowledge of events is screwing things up. The progression might even be correct in terms of which denominations were most dominant at which points in time, but they coexisted at different points 100%. It's not like Eastern Orthodox replaced Roman Catholoicism, or that Protestant beliefs stamped out Catholic ones
all the time you see the tree, symbolising this world of the lands between you think of its overshadowing Almight. But hen you enters Leyendell, you slowly feels betrayed. Thre tree looks at first look damaged, with the dark notch with the entrance. When you finally stands at the Palace grounds, you begins so wonder, why this glowing Bark part looks so surreal. Back then when i first heard, that it is simply a phantom, a spirit of the burned tree it all made sense. The mountains of ashes, which could only come from the tree. Such vast quantities of ashes that the Tree could not stayed safe as how it looks. I think the desperation that most of the Tarnished and also the inhabitants there have comes from that. Because even if it is a beautiful illusion of a healthy tree, it remains a lie. Why do the Tarnished want to go into the sacred interior unwaveringly? For them there is a tree enthroned above the world, shining in full splendour like a divine miracle without doubt. For them, the power of the Elden Ring is undoubtedly supreme. What if that is why the Tarnished were banished? Should they not be closer to the true faith, the divine nature? The reordering of the faith or the burning itself made them banished. The seat of the Tarnished with Godfrey was just below the tree. Perhaps they also all lost their grace through the burning, or having partaken of it through the sin of the time. But I think the meaning of the Tarnished, which is an important key to understanding the Lands Between, comes from this context
Of course! The arrival of the Golden Beast was in an Asteroid - which are often pack full of gold! Didn't even think of it before I saw the picture you put up. You never cease to blow my mind with these.
Erdtree having been burned down once already, and some characters unable to see the Erdtree just blew my mind! The initial burning presumably at the hands of Marika who shattered the Elden Ring is finally making sense of how she destroyed it and why as a consequence her appearance is statue/rock like. It's not rock but the appearance of wood after being burned down, it's charcoal and ash kept together! Wow! She burned herself, and is only kept together by Radagon and ER! No wonder when Melina goes to see her mother inside the ER she comes away with the impression that her purpose is to be the kindling maiden!
@@wqeerwqeer1375 Yes in the intro cut scene we see Marika/Radagon using a hammer, the narrator saying the ER is shattered. In gameplay, however, we learn that the ER is housed inside Marika's body, the same way all the other great runes are inside some type of body. We also know that the true form of the ER is the EB. Imo, the intro cutscene was a way to convey the story without actually showing how things happened. Certainly, we also see the abduction of Miquella by Mough and in that picture he's tiny, meanwhile he's huge and in a cocoon when we fight Mough. In game, we see Marika's body severely damaged. It occured presumably after the shattering. If the ER is inside her, than her own body had to be shattered in some type of way. She also couldn't have fought the EB because the EB literally crafts her body into a sword, and while it still needs a body, it's not going to destroy the current host, esp with Radagon side still working to it's favour. The only leverage Marika has is what she does with her body. And if she, in grief, self harmed some way, like throwing herself in the fire of her forge...you know. She'd do a lot of damage before Radagon took over. On the other hand, if you don't want to accept the symbolic explanation, and Marika did somehow remove the entire ER aka EB from her, put it on an anvil, and shattered it with a hammer...We do see Radagon in a forge, smithing something in the cinematic. Where did the fire come from to set the Erdtree ablaze? The forge.
@@launchbase4944 Yes in the intro cut scene we see Marika/Radagon using a hammer, the narrator saying the ER is shattered. In gameplay, however, we learn that the ER is housed inside Marika's body, the same way all the other great runes are inside some type of body. We also know that the true form of the ER is the EB. Imo, the intro cutscene was a way to convey the story without actually showing how things happened. Certainly, we also see the abduction of Miquella by Mough and in that picture he's tiny, meanwhile he's huge and in a cocoon when we fight Mough. In game, we see Marika's body severely damaged. It occured presumably after the shattering. If the ER is inside her, than her own body had to be shattered in some type of way. She also couldn't have fought the EB because the EB literally crafts her body into a sword, and while it still needs a body, it's not going to destroy the current host, esp with Radagon side still working to it's favour. The only leverage Marika has is what she does with her body. And if she, in grief, self harmed some way, like throwing herself in the fire of her forge...you know. She'd do a lot of damage before Radagon took over. On the other hand, if you don't want to accept the symbolic explanation, and Marika did somehow remove the entire ER aka EB from her, put it on an anvil, and shattered it with a hammer...We do see Radagon in a forge, smithing something in the cinematic. Where did the fire come from to set the Erdtree ablaze? The forge.
Yes in the intro cut scene we see Marika/Radagon using a hammer, the narrator saying the ER is shattered. In gameplay, however, we learn that the ER is housed inside Marika's body, the same way all the other great runes are inside some type of body. We also know that the true form of the ER is the EB. Imo, the intro cutscene was a way to convey the story without actually showing how things happened. Certainly, we also see the abduction of Miquella by Mough and in that picture he's tiny, meanwhile he's huge and in a cocoon when we fight Mough. In game, we see Marika's body severely damaged. It occured presumably after the shattering. If the ER is inside her, than her own body had to be shattered in some type of way. She also couldn't have fought the EB because the EB literally crafts her body into a sword, and while it still needs a body, it's not going to destroy the current host, esp with Radagon side still working to it's favour. The only leverage Marika has is what she does with her body. And if she, in grief, self harmed some way, like throwing herself in the fire of her forge...you know. She'd do a lot of damage before Radagon took over. On the other hand, if you don't want to accept the symbolic explanation, and Marika did somehow remove the entire ER aka EB from her, put it on an anvil, and shattered it with a hammer...We do see Radagon in a forge, smithing something in the cinematic. Where did the fire come from to set the Erdtree ablaze? The forge.
Love your content! I think you make by far the most consistent elden ring theories and lore and i love the incorporation of real life examples and inspirations into the world of elden ring. Thank you so much for continuing to make this astounding content!
Your perspective is always appealing to hear, even if there are things that can't work with what we know - the timeline presented by the game clearly makes out the stalemate after Shattering War to be the latest great event and not some distant past thing. This places the wars in Liurnia way earlier than the shattering of the Elden Ring, since it is clearly stated that Marika herself went missing when the Elden Ring was shattered but, she was present to "marry" Radagon after he left Rennala, which happened after the closing of those wars by way of Radagon repenting his aggression and ending up marrying Rennala. The sealing of the Rune of Death also has to have happened way before the Shattering, else all the depictions of the Elden Ring without the Rune of Death wouldn't make sense. And how would a phantom tree produce ash when burned? And not just a little ash, enough to bury the vast majority of Leyndell completely. The Guidence of Grace is clearly something only a rare few can see, at this point we the player are amongst the remaining few. Yet the Erdtree itself not being visible to most? I can see the golden glow being invisible to demi-humans (Boc somehow is awed by the sight of it when in Leyndell, yet it's visible from literally everywhere in the Lands Between?), Albunerics and other "non-favored" beings. Even then, it might just be that being so close is what makes it awe inspiring. Seeing a huge mountain from a distance isn't the same as standing at the foot of it, after all. The tree being an object of faith might just mean that the tree itself is otherwise "useless", it's just a giant, beautiful, glowing tree, with no blessings falling from it anymore. Interesting evidence and perspective, even if the conclusion is a little off.
I love how it's possible to enjoy playing Elden Ring without any prior knowledge about the game. You can simply engage in combat and progress through the game. However, there is an immense depth of meaning behind every piece of equipment you discover, the surrounding scenery, and the cryptic stories that people share with you. I am fascinated by this aspect of the game.
Maybe since Melina talks about wondering why she loves burned and bodiless, she was the kindling for the first burning as well.maybe since there's the theory that she's the gloam eyed queen that Marika used her as kindling to burn the crucible form of the erdtree after defeating her and that's why she can't remember much and shes bodiless. Maybe Marika just told her a bunch of lies like your my daughter born in the erdtree just to keep her under control and have her working for her then
Wow, I have been bothered by Melina for a while, if Marika is the god of the age she might have the power to rebirth the gloam eyed queen. It could track that Melina was reborn from Marika but is the gloam eyed queen. Is there any translation that confirms if it is gloam eyed prural or singular? Queen with the gloam eye
Melina might have some lingering memories of creating the black flame since she both knew how to burn the erdtree and where to send us to find Destined Death. Marika might have used her since she had the tools to finish what she started with the shattering.
@@zenebean maybe she just instinctively knew where to go since she's linked it, like an animal knows to hibernate or go south for the winter. She's just naturally drawn to it
Literally every time I watch one of your videos I end up nodding along and pointing at the screen like "oh my god, that's it! The connection! It all makes sense now!!" no matter which topic you are covering. Thanks for another banger video, can't wait to continue watching you untangle this web!
The theory about First Burning is sound indeed, but I still can't reconcile it with one thing - how can the Erdtree’s trunk be a magical projection AND still produce extra ash when we burn it in the end of the game?
So I thought the shattering of the elden ring by Marika was one of the later events in the timeline, wouldn't it have to take place AFTER the rune of death is sealed, meaning when the golden order was formed? But if the erdtree burning is when it shattered, that means somehow the defeat of the gloam-eyed queen happens when Marika has already been crucified?
That's an interesting point, maybe there is a distinction between "taking Destined Death away from the gloam-eyed queen" and removing it completely from the Ring itself.
Like the talisman which calls Godfrey the first Elden Lord, there is misinformation in the Lands Between surrounding the GEQ. What the truth is, I'm not sure we can definitively say, but there is a lie/falsehood in that story somewhere.
The timeline presented here is simply wrong. I do believe there was a first burning of the Erdtree, but TA is mistaken in tying that burning to the shattering, it is throwing off his placement of events terribly. He states the erdtree worship period follows the shattering, but this is impossible. Godwyn's death and the Night of Black Knives instigated Marika's shattering of the Elden Ring, but Godwyn clearly was alive during the Ancient Dragon War, where lightening fortification(an Erdtree Worship incantation) was used. Tying the shattering to the first burning is messing things up.
I was already struggling with the placement of the Shattering as presented here, also because Godwyn dying that early on doesn't make sense to me. The Golden Epitaph states that it was made to commemorate the death of Godwyn and is "infused with the humble prayer of a young boy" that calls Godwyn lord brother. To me, this could only be Miquella, which would mean that Radagon was already Marika's other half when the Night of the Black Knives took place. And although it's not explicitly stated, the cinematic of Marika and Radagon repeatedly shattering and mending the Elden Ring would support this too
when the erdtree was burn the shattering happened and the erdtree has being burn more than once, then the answer is that the shattering has happened more than once. I don't think there is a reason to think that is the first time that happened neither would be the last (ignoring the perfect order ending ofc)
I've been binge watching your works through a tough period IRL, so thanks for the distractions--and the botany and history lessons. I've been able to finally have inspiration to continue working on some Elden Ring art projects. Regardless of anyones agreement or disagreement--I think those nuances come down to our interpretation, until we get further information. If anything, it's an envisioning of what's going with the game--characters like Ranni, Goldmask, and Miquella are seeking. If we stick to the accepted fundamentals too much, it eventually can stagnant and slow progress. Sometimes a different view, with its own roots, or no roots at all, is necessary, even if initially seeming extreme. Yet it does not always disqualifies previous understandings. Also the entire point of what has happened in our own history. I do think the Golden Order was around before, but then after the burning, there was a great deviation. Similar to religions in our own pasts. Templars today and Templars then have very different meanings. There's not enough information until more is officially released? But if the tree was burned first around the shattering, that would explain the collapse more so. Deaths and rebirths were frozen almost jointly, which aligns with Miyazaki's view. Death is not per se the opposite of life, but are still interconnected. I guess my only question is why don't we have more clear facts on these catalysts. I could understand vagueness on the Great Tree or older history and less definition on when it took place-- but the Shattering was so clearly documented, then why not the first burning? Also my empty braincell head was shook when I realized that not everyone can see the phantom/grace tree...woooaahh that makes so much dialogue and hints clearer. anyway, thank you for the hard work! - @SueDraws
I'm a bit concerned you didn't address the tension inherent in your timeline, namely that if the shattering marked the end of the era of abundence, but marika was the one who started the golden order, how can that be reconciled with the fact that she was imprisoned FOR shattering the elden ring? You've been consistent enough in your insights that I'm sure you'll come back to it, but it seems too big of a question to not even mention it here.
It is the Lord's blessing that we are able to question him at all. He doesn't admonish us for thinking differently and forming our own opinions and interpretations about his teachings and intentions, but welcomes such ideas. We cannot begin to understand his mind, and we shouldn't ask for such. He has a plan for us all. ✝️
I will reiterate something I said in your previous video. While this is a provocative theory and I do see the logic behind it, it baffles me that there is literally nothing physical in the game that commemorates the burning of the Erdtree. There is no dialogue, no scripture, no statues, effigies, prayers, nothing. It would be impossible for such an event to be completely hidden from the Lands Between entirely, considering the sheer amount of factions that hold no true allegiance to the Erdtree faithful, dispite their dominance. While its not an impossible theory, and may even be likely, I cannot get over the fact that such an event occured and no one recorded it. Especially if it happened before the Shattering. What are your thoughts on this?
I'm finally starting to see other youtubers referring to your channel. You deserve it. They could all benefit from integrating your findings into their work.
WAIT WAIT WAIT , I don't understand one point: is TA implying that the Shattering precedes Liurnian Wars and sealing of the Death Rune? Because that would be impossible. Radagon married Rennala (ergo sired Ranni) after the Liurnian Wars and conspired for the Night of Black Knives using the Death Rune stolen by Maliketh, who had it sealed. Therefore both events predate the Night, which is said to have triggered (thus: preceded) the Shattering. Am I missing a step here?
It's just a theory video for fun, I wouldn't take it too seriously. Just some fun history to pass the time. Litterly every theory video gets something wrong and goes down a rabbit hole of wrong conclusions. TA gets stuff wrong too but usually isolated from the rest of the stuff presented with actual evidence.
@@petercottantail7850 sure it's theorycrafting for fun. And the bottom line of that fun is, trying to come up with good theories. Now TA is usually insightful about lots of stuff (nearly everythijg he says in this video about the Order is more spot-on than 90% of lorehunters videos around) and it stands out if he misses such important details.
I definitely buy the Erdtree having been burned before, and linking it to the shattering of the Elden Ring makes a lot of sense, but I'm really not sure the timeline lines up such that all that could happen *before* the creation of the Golden Order. I'll have to look up the various descriptions and flavor text again, but I seem to recall the game implying pretty heavily that the Shattering followed (possibly "was directly caused by") the Night of Black Knives, which one would assume would have to take place *after* the removal of the Rune of Death and its sealing by Maliketh. But I may be remembering wrong, or just not understanding the video.
Damn you never fail top put out the most well thought out and well researched lore videos on UA-cam. Your analysis of the game's environmental storytelling and the way you tie in game lore with irl history is second to none.
While I'm open to the idea the Erdtree might've been burned before (though I'm not so convinced that I wouldn't accept that it wasn't), I must disagree with the timeline you present here. There are a few things the create issues if Marika was already impreasoned by the time Radagon left Renalla. The biggest one is the Spoken Echoes of Queen Marika that Melina tells us. "O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered both. Mine other self." This is a spoken echo that lingered in the Queen's bedchamber, not inside the Erdtree. This tells us 1) That Queen Marika and Radagon both existed separated outside the Erdtree, implying that this was before her imprisoment; 2) That Radagon was Marika's consort by the time she shattered the Elden Ring, seeing as she litterally says 'let us be shattered both' and also seeing as the story trailer both shows us Marika and Radagon being shattered themselves as they shattered the Elden Ring. At the very least, Radagon was there when Marika shattered the Elden Ring. Not only that, but the's a lot of evidence connecting Radagon to Marika even before he departed from Liurnia, like the fact he sworn the preceptors to secrecy, or the fact he gave Renalla a Great Rune of the Elden Ring.
You have such an amazing way of putting together all the pieces of lore, and their real world references, it has really made me appreciate this game on another level, thank you for all the hard work
You’re perspective on lore videos is so different from all the other channels like it. The way you use the environment to tell the stories rather then the descriptions is so awesome. I really hope you do some videos on other fromsoft games. P.S I have a degree in archaeology and anthropology and I can confirm the way you analyze this world is so similar to how we study human history in these disciplines. Bravo man.
I find it unlikely that the Shattering happened so long before the formation of the Golden Order. The Shattering Wars seemed to be one of the most recent events in the history of the Lands Between. Also the timeline you showed has a mistake: if the Shattering happened at the end of the Ancient Erdtree era, then Godwyn was killed at that time as well. Yet you portray Godwyn's alliance with the dragons as happening in between the Ancient Era and the Golden Order one.
Yeah I agree. Hard to imagine Godwyn, Ranni, Radahn and Rykard all born during the Age of Plenty if it was so fleeting. All three faiths would've been formed during the fleeting Age of Plenty if the Shattering is what ended it. There is no way the Golden Order was formed after the Shattering. The Golden Order is simply the latest creed of the Erdtree religion, established by Radagon during his rule as Elden Lord
TAs take on this seems to be that the shattering (breaking the elden ring) and the shattering (the war of the demigods) are seperated much more like normally assumed. And Godwyns dead leading to the shattering wars and not the shattering of the elden ring itself. I like to imaging the shattering was kept secret by the golden linage, godwyn and the other demigods which formed the souvereign alliance. They were the first line of lyndells defense for the attack of the ancient dragons that followed. It was only after the alliance broke much later after the murder of godwyn that the war started and the shattering was proclaimed by the demigods.
Absolutely incredible! I expect nothing less when I get notified of a new TA video, yet still I finish the video with chills and a big goofy smile of awe and wonder! I think also you've perfected the cliffhangers, I already can't wait for the next one! Cheers and thanks for all that you do!
You are absolutely amazing. I love how you do lore! Never stop posting content, you speak to my inner history nerd and gamer nerd. Thank you! (Smoughtown sent me to your channel)
I’d also note that Radagon sealed off Raya Lucaria; the seal there has his trellis symbol, while every other magic seal is a blue wall with the crest of the caster
This is one crazy timeline you're assembling here, in a very different order than many people think. I look forward to hearing a lot more details about how that sequence adds up. It introduces many mysteries, such as the meaning of Maliketh's sword and the night of black knives if the Rune of Death hasn't been removed from the elden ring yet; how Godwyn participated in the dragon war seemingly after his death; whether Raya Lucaria, sealed for the shattering, has been shut up the entire time since then or if it's flip-flopped for some reason.
@@wh1pla5h Maybe. But they are normally quite meticulous about details, so it's hard for me to believe they've completely overlooked so much stuff. For this channel, I'm willing to believe there's some interesting explanation that they have yet to share, and if so, I'd love to hear it.
@ZAK Magnus If you actually pay attention to the videos, TA does routinely partake in reaching. While his content is great and the novel approach is very important, he often get caughtup in his interpretations and get things wrong as a result. A good example here is how he places the shattering before the coming of Radagon. Which is just impossible and wrong. They couldn't possibly have met, married and have children all the while Marika was forced to T-pose. Especially since the only echoes of a discussion between the two are found outside the Erdtree. Another mistake assuming that Marika's poses represents here chained down by the Greater Will, which is impossible as well since no one actually saw her in this state, rather than simply assuming the rune arc pose.
I think the confusion stemmed partly from just how insanely compelling it is that the Erdtree would work like a sequoia, releasing seeds only when it burns. Hence the lore saying the tree released seeds during the shattering makes it _very_ tempting to say it was burning then-even if unfortunately that goes against the rest of the evidence. I think there are ways to address this, but yeah as it was stated in this video it’s not perfect.
One thing regarding the Ashen Capital at the end of the game... The city is covered in far more ash and is basically destroyed by the supposed 2nd burning. So how could the second burning of the Erdtree be so much more destructive than the first, if the thing that you're burning is mostly an illusion? It doesn't really make sense.
What I find interesting is that Radagon made an error with his grid. It is clear he adopted the grid as a defense from the Raya Lucaria gate grid, but there is one big difference, Raya Lucaria's grid is patterned with equilateral triangles, but Radagons rune is made of only squares, a less stable shape.
@@exquisitedoomlapointe185 true there is the central line, but it doesn't hadd much structural stability compared to the equilateral triangle base in general
For an Xbox Live profile picture-lookin fella, your ability to delineate avenues of perception and interpretation is utterly tantalizing. Your work has turned near my entire reading on its head. Well done indeed.
I never noticed that the Erdtree we see was a Phanthom! that explains SO much and also some of the odd lighting seen throughout the lands between; incredible!
I love everything about this video, but now I'm more confused by the timeline - how did Marika shatter the Elden Ring, and then go on to have Miquella and Malenia and still be known - i.e. not imprisoned? And if Radagon arrived with the founding of the Golden Order, why does someone as pious as Corynth speak of him like he's a nobody and that Marika is the one true god?
The principles of Radagon informed the Golden Order. But he's not the source of it. That's still Marika, as vessel of the ring. Radagon is more like a revered priest than a figure of worship. In most places. Obviously there are 3-4 churches of Radagon worship. But I think their low number is indicative that the practice was not common. But also, Corhyn is tarnished and it is ostensibly his task to become Elden Lord. Even though he abandons the task, seemingly, it was at one point his job to take Radagon's former position. So Corhyn would likely view himself as about equal to Radagon. Or at least, he did at one time. (ETA) "... he's not the source of it, as far as people in the Lands Between are aware."
Easily the most interesting content related to Elden Ring. Thank you for your videos, I have friends who never played elden ring but got them to listen to your videos at work.
aaaah That idea of other people maybe not seeing the Erdtree has been bothering me for so long im glad you said it! The confirmation i was waiting for was for the game to show us the phantom tree disappearing, maybe when it is burned or at any other time. But it stays there throughout the game so i kinda dropped that line of thought, feeling like i couldnt take it further. But it gives such a different meaning and tone to all the NPC's who stare longingly in it's direction, or at other Erdtrees. Hell, it maybe even changes the context of those paintings in Volcano Manor, which have the tree burning. (Can anybody dedicated to the Manor's cause even see the phantom tree??) I think i initially thought about it when meeting Blackguard Boggart for the first time. He wonders why the Greater Will decided a screw up like him should be shown grace. It made me think again for the first time in hours that not everyone can see the trails of light that Boggart and i are shown. Which made me remember how i was eventually waiting for the game to take the guidance of grace from me entirely (i thought it may be a natural course of events if i leaned as heavy as possible into INT and all things glintstone.) I think later too, when i got to Castle Sol and started to try to put stuff together about the Eclipse. Im thinking, "man how can anybody even see the sun when the Erdtree covers basically the entire sky? i dont get any of this." But again, without any status change of the phantom tree, i kinda just dropped it. But im fully back on that train now. It plays into my favorite aspect of the game, how so many in-universe conclusions come down to the perspective of the individual characters. Not only visual or physical perspective, but philosophical as well, and how they determine the laws of the universe. Holy crap this is such a great narrative and your videos are amaziiiingngn
I started the game thinking I would mostly focus on magic. However I started as a confessor and the Golden Order incantations, particularly the fundamentalist ones, really charmed me. So I ended up with a hybrid sorcery and incantations build. The whole concept of the Golden Order is fascinating and really drew me to it.
Sooooo.... If Godwyn died before the burning, how did Lightning spells and Dragon worship come after it? Also,if the Night of the Black Knives occurred before the burning, then where are Ranni and Rykard, who were born after the Liurnian Wars? Is there something you're hiding?
I can't think of a single npc pointing to the erdtree in a way that acknowledges it or item description. I wonder if anyone can debunk this, if nobody can, then T.A is onto something here.
@@exquisitedoomlapointe185 The only one that comes to mind is Goldmask but it makes sense for him to see it because he's guided by grace like we are. You can see it in the intro to the game with the sliver of grace next to him.
@@exquisitedoomlapointe185 When you reach Leyndell, Boc says: "Master, did you see it? Th-the Erdtree? I, oh, I don't really have the words for this... but I was so dazzled, I felt something stir, in my breast. The Erdtree is waiting for you, Master. I knot it, I do. I feel it in my bones."
This channel is by far the best souls lore channel I’ve ever watched. Only one who comes close is Hawkshaw. I would love for you to make a more “clickable” one time video to enlarge the community because you really deserve this. Maybe a summarisation of the timeline informed by all the forensic evidence you picked up. Keep up the awesome work.
Hi TA! Thanks for the new video, it’s beautiful as always. This time around, though, I think there’s something that needs to be addressed in your reconstruction. Having such a scholarly mind, I’m sure you’ll take my criticism for what it is, a meeting of interpretations and ideas I’d like to have with someone whose work I really enjoy. I disagree with you when you conflate the shattering of the Elden Ring with the end of the Age of Plenty. I suspect that you’re shrinking the timeline too much, thus leaving the many changes Marika’s order underwent very little room to breathe. Just some things that run counter to your reconstruction of events: - The end of the War against the Giants is very explicitly characterized as the true beginning of the Golden Order. Why? - The Golden Order needs to have time to develop and transition from its Crucible form (unashamedly Hoarah-Loux-ian) to its more refined form (whereas the Godfrey persona becomes a necessity) and that again to become so refined as to needing a general reform under Radagon, in the form of the Golden Order. - Miquella already exchanged Golden Order incantations with his father since his childhood, presumably before the Elden Ring was shattered. - The worst of all: Marika has been imprisoned in the Erdtree for shattering the Ring, which she did with Radagon at her side, according to her own words. She can’t have exiled Godfrey and recalled Radagon after shattering the Ring, if Godfrey’s age closes with her doing just that. I could go on, but there are too many that don’t add up. Instead, I think it’s more likely that it went something like: early conquests and conversions -> Reign of Godfrey/Age of Plenty -> a series of ground-shaking events (the Erdtree grows old and starts giving sings of decay, Gransax attacks, the Prophecy of the Flame of Ruin burning the Erdtree coming up, more omen births, including royal babies, the GMQ, etc…) -> Sealing of the Rune of Death and banishment of Godfrey -> Reign of Radagon/Age of the Golden Order -> Night of the Black Knives/shattering of the Ring/burning of the Erdtree). In this reconstruction, the Erdtree icons should go like this: Crucible icon = early days of conquest -> Cross icon = mature Age of Plenty, when Marika needs to cement her rule in a mostly peaceful empire -> Golden Order icon = Age of Radagon, where the Erdtree becomes an object of faith, immortal and perfect. I’d like to talk with you in detail about this, but it’d take too long. Still, there’s a couple of things I need to expand upon: - The Age of Plenty corresponds to Godfrey’s reign, as it seems abundantly clear. It seems that people can die naturally in this age, since this is part of what makes these ancient men champions: “they knew what was at stake”. - This would be the time when the Erdtree would most need to be flexible, because everything is still opposed to it. This early flexibility can be seen with how it treated, to more or less harsh extents, with the Storm King’s and Serosh’s realms, and Liurnia. - There must come a time when Marika’s reign becomes great and prosperous and needs its own identity. Marika starts distancing herself from the previous age, trying to espouse more peaceful, more civilized ideals. This is also why Hoarah Loux needs to become Godfrey, it’s an oath not to fight to keep fighting, but to fight to end fighting. - The reveal of the Erdtree’s mortality at the close of Godfrey’s reign would surely cause a widespread spiritual crisis (“those blissful days of blind belief are now long past”). Marika is determined to find a way to make it right again. She will succeed by transforming the Erdtree from a simple plant to something “perfect and eternal”, by removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring. But she can’t do that without first addressing an old prophecy: - Radagon’s age sees the Erdtree becoming an object of worship above all. There’s peace enough to ponder the deeper mysteries of the universe. After a great catastrophe, the world recovers, trying to keep itself stable. To survive, the Erdtree had to enforce an ever more stringent and conceptual orthodoxy - now, that same orthodoxy has become the norm and it serves the new purpose of keeping the realm stable in a more intellectual landscape, with all the contradictions that entail from such a conceit. This is not unlike what happened in the wake of the Black Death to the Catholic Church, when its system of beliefs and practices finally crystallized in their more well-known and rigid form, as Jacques Le Goff posits. - I wonder how much the sealing away of Destined Death accelerated the drying up of sap. Something that can’t die doesn’t need to reproduce, a theme abundantly present, not only in the game, but also in Martin’s “A Song of Ice and Fire”. There, the weirwoods don’t produce sap naturally and, most of all, seem not to produce seeds, because they’re basically undead trees. They’re already immortal and perfect, almost impossible to cut down. Why would such a creature answer to the common laws of reproduction, as dictated by decay, when it’s unaffected by it? - I also wonder whether Gransax's attack contributed to the waning health of the tree, along with its grafted nature. I mean, the Tree Sentinels seem to have been deeply traumatised by the event, which means that Gransax at least attacked, if not outright damaged, the Tree itlsef, besides the Capital. Thank you very much for reading! I really wish there could be a space to talk like human beings, instead of compressing all this stuff in such a manner. There are many things left unsaid and worth digging deeper into when discussing ideas on such a deep topic (the GMQ and the Serpent's betrayal and how they fit here etc...).
33:40 the Elden Ring was shattered after Godwyn's murder, therefore after the war against the ancient dragons and the banishment of Godfrey and his warriors. Furthermore Marika was imprisoned in the Erdtree after she destroyed the Elden Ring while Radagon desperately tried to repair it, so I really don't think that they were able to remove the rune of death, create fundamentalism, marry and have kids. You also placed the night of the black knives before the rune of death was removed from the elden ring and then sealed by Maliketh, but Ranni stole the fragment from Maliketh when it was already sealed away. Lastly, with the removal of destined death Erdtree burial was also created, and after death people returned to the Erdtree to be reincarnated, and we can see in game that right now, after the desctruction of the Elden Ring, this whole reincarnation system doesn't work anymore, so the rune of death to being removed after the shattering of the Elden Ring doesn't make sense. Sorry but this timeline is full of nonsense :/
When our hole take on the storyis interpretating an connecting loose informations from a game, do you really think its ok to talk of nonesense if someone just interpretates it in another way?
I have to pause the video for a moment. The CHILLS when you mentionned the trellis and Radagon's Rune... (probably helped by Elden Beast ost lmao). I've known for a while that the world-building of Elden Ring is out of this realm, and that you'll always manage to decrypt it in the most facinating ways, but damn, I always find myself dumbfounded by your discoveries. I have no words. Thank you.
Arguably the best ER lore guy out there, my dude. Nicely done as usual. I admire your well-rounded learnedness and think you're usually spot on when illuminating the real-life historical and religious inspirations seen in the game, though (and I know, you specifically mentioned you wouldn't debate this in video) I've gotta disagree hard on the idea of Jesus' deity having been a concept developed following / separate from the accounts of the synoptic gospels.
I'm a bit confused as to where you place the shattering of the Elden Ring in the timeline, way before Godwyn's death. Unless you imply that there has been multiple shatterings of the Elden Ring? Is the burning of the Erdtree necessary linked to the shattering? The Staff of the Avatar description mentions that they arose "in the wake of the shattering", to protect the "withering" minor erdtrees, implying that those minor Erdtrees are already grown and old, and that quite some time has passed since the burning and scattering of the seeds.
the full description for the Staff of the Avatar says "The avatars, emerging in the wake of the Elden Ring's shattering, were determined to protect the withering Erdtree's offspring." Imo it feels like its referring to THE Erdtree as withering, not the Minor Erdtrees
@@idzidz833 That's... a very good point. Although the use of "withering" to refer to something that is burning is a little odd to me. Also, in addition to the minor Erdtrees, we also have small, phantom trees scattered accross the Lands Between. What if, upon burning the first time, the Erdtree scattered real, physical seeds that became the minor Erdtrees, and upon burning a second time (during the shattering?) as a phantom Erdtree, it scattered phantom seeds that became the smaller phantom trees?
When the footage of all those old books was being played and they were being handled without gloves on I almost broke a tooth I was clenching my jaw so hard.
The timeline presented here is simply wrong. I do believe there was a first burning of the Erdtree, but TA is mistaken in tying that burning to the shattering, it is throwing off his placement of events terribly. He states the erdtree worship period follows the shattering, but this is impossible. Godwyn's death and the Night of Black Knives instigated Marika's shattering of the Elden Ring, but Godwyn clearly was alive during the Ancient Dragon War, where lightening fortification(an Erdtree Worship incantation) was used. Tying the shattering to the first burning is messing things up.
Some questions, in your opinion: In botanical terms, what are the 'people' in the 'lands between' (LB)? Are they buds, flowers, leaves, branches, fruits, cuttings, shoots, ...? Are Deathbirds and Deathrite Birds a seed dispenser species, and their sacrificial rites a means to travel from and to the LB? Is there a webpage where we can see the timelines shown in the video? Please? How many era's has the TA team classified at this point? Does every Coppicing of the great tree come with a shattering of the Elden Ring? What era would you say the black hexagonal columns are from? Were they even made by mortal hands? Does she love me back? Is Godwyn a potato?
A little detail to assist this order of events. The Godskin "Noble Presence" is states: "Once a sign of the gods' wrath, this incantation became a trophy of the Nobles' god hunt." So this incantation is based on somehing used by the onces that were huntend. Searching for a fitting thing, and one might find "Wrath of Gold" exteremly fitting. It states "This incantation was discovered when the Elden Ring was shattered, and it was feared as a sign of the Erdtree's wrath." So according to this connection the order also seems to be: Shattering, Wrath od Gold, Godskin Aposty, Removal of Rune of Dead. Great thanks to TA for giving this new order of events, it still makes me thinking more and more about the lore.
@@tarnishedarchaeologist After thinking about this hole thing again for hours and hours and really bitting my teeth into the lore I have to take back that conclussion. Sadly I don't have the time or skill to make such great videos 😐 Keep up your good work, I'm looking forward to see what you make of it.
Another important piece of evicence to the massive golden phantom Erdtree being something only those who still see grace can see comes from Boc. When you meet him in the royal capital, he asks you if you saw the Erdtree and muses at the profound religious experience he had when he saw it himself. Now certainly it's quite the sight up close, but not more so than what you've been expecting from the massive horizon spanning cannopy. But it's not until you enter the capital itself you can see the physical erdtree behind the illusory golden phantom.
*(1/2)* Hold on, how can you claim the Erdtree is a phantom when your own selected video clip, the Age of Fracture ending (11:12), shows patches of brown bark running up and down the entire tree? Even some branches have brown segments! Fracture shows that a whole tree is still standing, as reinforced by the *view within the Erdtree* -- brown bark in all directions and rising upward. The Frenzied Flame ending proves the tree's round mass is real, rather than a sliver in the front, too. The rest of the tree is merely gone because a colossal pillar of universe-destroying fire just shot through it and is igniting the sky itself. Furthermore, your assertion from 8:01 to 8:09, "So evidently, the catastrophe that brought about the end of the Age of Plenty was indeed contemporaneous with the shattering of the Elden Ring," *directly contradicts the game's timeline and your own* . How could the Age of Plenty, which you say ended shortly into Godfrey's reign, have concluded *long after* Godfrey ceased being Elden Lord and years into *Radagon's* reign? You also posit at 17:11 that the Age of Plenty ended close to the Night of the Black Knives, but Rogier's dialogue quickly contradicts itself. Within five sentences, and within the same dialogue chunk, Rogier goes from saying that the killings "happened during the Golden Age of the Erdtree, long before the shattering of the Elden Ring," to "it became the catalyst. Soon, the Elden Ring was smashed, and thus sprang forth the war known as the Shattering." How can the Night of the Black Knives be both *long before* the shattering of the Elden Ring and said breaking of the ring was *soon after* the killings in question? Even more egregious is that you posit the Night of the Black Knives happened in this Age of Plenty, but then say the round, "formless" Erdtree sigil was created afterward by citing Golden Lightning Fortification's use in the ancient dragon war as proof. When the ancient dragon war took place, Godwyn the Golden was still alive! Godwyn defeated Fortissax in the conflict and the two became friends, hence why Fortissax tried to save Godwyn from the Death Blight later on. How could the "phantom Erdtree" era and its sigil begin after Godwyn's death when Godwyn was alive for the very wars you're trying to use as proof? Barrier of Gold doesn't help your case either, since Miriel's dialogue confirms that the Liurnian Wars happened in Godfrey's era. Miriel tells us that Radagon was already married to Rennala, an event that happened after the Liurnian Wars, by the time Godfrey lost Grace and Marika hounded him out of the Lands Between. It was only after Godfrey's banishment that Marika decided that Radagon should be the next Elden Lord, and Radagon abandoning Rennala drove her insane. Considering that Ranni was born to and grew up raised by the sane Rennala, this means that not only did the Liurnian Wars happen in Godfrey's reign, but Radagon's own children were born and likely adults by the time Godfrey's era ended! The round Erdtree sigil had to have existed in Godfrey's reign. By the way, the Erdtree Seal is "formless" because it literally has no weight at all. It's not representative of a formless Erdtree, the description is informing people that the seal is some kind of energy tool itself, a la the Frenzied Flame Seal, the Dragon Communion Seal, and the Cipher Pata. In fact, the Erdtree, Golden Order, Frenzied Flame, and Dragon Communion Seals, along with the Cipher Pata, all specifically use the term formless. We have no reason to believe this is a coincidence for the Erdtree Seal or a double meaning, and as such the Erdtree itself was not formless in the era of the Erdtree Seal's creation. Also, you keep mentioning a first burning of the Erdtree, yet you neglect to mention what would even do it -- Bernahl's Finger Maiden burning at the Forge of the Fire Giants, as told by the shared item description for his (torso) armor, gauntlets, and greaves: "Beasts are drawn to champions, and to lords. And this armor befits a champion worthy of becoming a lord. And that is what Bernahl was. Until his maiden threw herself into the fire." Bernahl can access Farum Azula, indicating that he indeed went through all the steps that the player character does with Melina, who, to paraphrase her words, can accomplish what a Finger Maiden does. This event is crucial for the timeline, as Bernahl's maiden can only burn at the Forge after the Elden Ring was shattered, the Shattering war began between the demi-gods, and the Tarnished were called back to the Lands Between. The first burning of the Erdtree has to have been one of the last events in the entire timeline, not in Godfrey's reign, let alone with Leyndell still covered in ash through Radagon's reign. Furthermore, you keep saying the Age of Plenty would have ended from the Erdtree burning, but why not apply Occam's Razor and consider that the Erdtree, like any other tree, has cycling periods of blooming and resting? Trees are often seasonal, and even evergreens stagger when they bloom and produce fruit. It seems far more likely that Leyndell took the Erdtree's bounty for granted and became resentful when they learned the tree has its own neutral, resting state. Also, why not address Leyndell's innate hypocrisy with defining the "eternal"? Leyndell called the Erdtree eternal and said it thus couldn't have children, but Marika herself is distinctly titled "Queen Marika the Eternal" yet has been having kids all throughout her reign without being criticized or doubted because of it. Additionally, courtesy of Melina reciting echoes of Marika, it seems that Marika declared the beginning of Golden Order Fundamentalism at the Minor Erdtree Church of Altus Plateau. This church notably features three Erdtree saplings, two of which are relatively thin and a third that's about 2-3 times the height and distinctly wider. This third tree even seems to be the main object of worship at the church, taking the place of a Marika or Radagon statue. As such, the Erdtree may have had an initial wave of seeds before the Elden Ring shattered. Also, how do Blessing's Boon, Blessing of the Erdtree, and Erdtree Heal, leafy tree sigil incantations, derive their power from a graftee Crucible when they are as golden as the later Erdtree incantations? These flourishing incantations don't use the fainter gold with a tinge of white light that the Crucible Knight incantations do, they use this "Crucible" sigil but with a bright, solid gold. In fact, there are more incantations and Ashes of War of the prospering Erdtree being strongly gold than there are of it being faintly gold: Golden Land, the technique done by the Erdtree Avatars and inherent to the Erdtree branch known as the Great Club; Holy Ground; Golden Temperment; the three incantations mentioned above; and even Morgott and Melina's individual incantations. Furthermore, Melina's healing tree is reminiscent of the Warming Stone's item description: "It's said that the Erdtree was once as warm as the gentle sun, and would gradually heal all who bathed in its rays." This indicates that the Age of Plenty Erdtree produced light. This very notion means that the Erdtree producing light is normal with the Erdtree being in a non-phantom state. By considering this detail alongside the other evidence, we have no reason to believe that the Erdtree is in a phantom state. Then there's Elden Stars. This incantation, using the leafy tree but as a bright, solid gold, tells of a time when life seems to have begun on the planet. The Elden Beast's boss arena implies that Erdtrees are spread throughout the galaxy, and Hyetta tells us that the Greater Will created life itself. Adding the item description, arena visual, and Hyetta's dialogue together, it appears that the Greater Will creates life by sending Erdtrees to planets, and thus the Erdtree would predate any other possible plant. The Erdtree itself is thus the Crucible in its entirety, and the "greattree" of the Root Resin. There was no grafting, just normal growing by a single plant. The Minor Erdtree Church even shows Erdtrees that have apparently only just begun glowing, with the bark and the light resembling the color of the Crucible Knight incantations.
(I'm responding to my first comment just so I can keep both of them linked together for anyone who wants to read them. UA-cam's floating comments will otherwise make it a pain to find the second post.) *(2/2)* Where does this tangent of Goldmask possibly disliking free will come from, anyway? The gods of the Lands Between are repeatedly fickle in the sense of Greek gods, being irresponsible, selfish jerks who don't actually have any validity of a deeper universal understanding and basis. Marika in particular breaks the rules of the society she founded to be both god and Elden Lord, appearing foolish for not just changing the laws normally, appearing greedy in general, and needlessly hurting people in the process. Radagon might also be a faux Renaissance Man, seeing as how he appears to ditch all the sorceries he learned in Liurnia once he becomes Elden Lord. Radagon doesn't seem to use any Fundamentalist incantations in his boss fight, and he certainly doesn't use any spells. Radagon also turned the Moonlight Greatsword Rennala gave him into a purely incantation sword, then perhaps even discarded it. The incantation with Radagon's name in it only uses his name to mark him as the recipient of a present that Miquella created. Heck, perhaps the only case of Radagon still using anything he learned in Liurnia is his own symbol -- the same sigil appears on Raya Lucaria's gates, albeit the gates are also structured like that. Marika criticizes Radagon as a leal hound of the Golden Order too, so in that regard you have words from Radagon himself suggesting he's loyal to the Golden Order instead of the Elden Ring. As to the comment about Leyndell having vines instead of roots, any roots may have temporarily moved upward upon pressing against a building while growing. Additionally, Sekiro Dubi has an interesting video where the golden sections of the Erdtree seem to build themselves with a vine-like pattern. Everything else still suggests the gold and the brown are both parts of the same tree, without any grafting, symbiosis, or parasitism, but the vine-like details on the highest branches are still interesting. It should also be noted that the description when investigating the seal, along with every character's dialogue, says that the thorns are part of the Erdtree, not some separate plant or force. You've made very good work regarding Elden Ring's setting, story, and lore in past videos, but this video is illogical, making little to no sense with all three of those things and even itself. Please consider revising this video -- there are interesting ideas, but they're severely undermined by being attached to things we know are not true.
As I pour over Elden Ring lore, and try to piece together the grander story, sometimes I think the entire point is a much deeper philosophy that is a mirror of real life. I'll find myself looking at characters like Miquella and while wondering what their motives might be, I'll find myself looking at my own tendencies towards nihilism or questions of free will or passions, faiths, and axioms. I think it's a beautiful alchemic work.
Yup. Literally every single gospel. From calling himself and being called Lord, to being worshipped, to performing miracles, to laying down and taking his life back up on His own authority, from claiming to be one with the Father, from claiming to be equal to the Father, to claiming to be eternal, to paying for all of sin (something only possible for one who is 1) a suitable substitute (being human) and 2) a infinitely valuable substitute (being God). The list goes on and on. No one can honestly claim that the gospels themselves don’t claim the deity of Christ. However, many scholars would attempt to get around this by saying that the gospels were written much later and that’s when these references were put in. However, both internal and external evidence strongly refutes this.
The timeline you're proposing is pretty wrong, tho First, it is true the Golden Order is been founded with the removal of the Rune of Death, but we know this occurred before the Shattering: the proof lies in the events of the Night of the Black Knives, which Rogier defines as the catalyst that leaded to Marika breaking the ring. Also, the assassins stole a fragment of rune from Maliketh for kill Godwyn, and Maliketh kept the Death sealed within his sword. This stealing couldn't have occurred, if the Rune of Death wasn't already been sealed in that moment, therefore the Golden Order started way before the Shattering, and not after. Also, I see you placed the Shattering of the Elden Ring before the Liurnian Wars, but this would imply that Marika/Radagon was already been sealed inside the Erdtree. And we know this can't be, because Radagon was at Liurnia at times and Marika was still active and ruling, as we see when she banished Godfrey and co from the Lands Between. And also, Radagon can't actually move of his own, if Marika is sealed: after all, we see in the trailer that, when she breaks the rings, Radagon breaks too. He wouldn't have been capable of moving outside, after that. Also, I'm not against the idea of the Erdtree being burned already, but if it's occurred a long time ago, why does Leyndell still keep the piles of ashes around the streets and the roof even nowadays?
Man, this video just made me realize that the "stumpy" look of the Erdtree Avatars is because they are the literal projected avatars of the _physical_ stumpy tree.
Are you telling me you haven't been learning everything there is to know about horticulture in between Tarnished Archaeologist videos in order to stay abreast of the topic of imaginary trees in fantasy worlds? For shame.
That some people can't even see the erdtree blew my mind. All this time I've been playing, I just assumed the giant glowing tree in the distance was something that everyone could see.
Makes sence why they do cast those without grace out, it works like the green googles for the emerald city
If the theory that the true erd tree has been burnt already and the gold part is just a projection, the ones that can't see it would be pointing non stop that 'the emperor has no clothes'
Reminds me of that dialogue from Boc in Leyndell... he's gushing in awe, asking us if we had seen the Erdtree yet. I always thought it was weird since we've been able to see the Erdtree ever since we stepped foot in Limgrave, but perhaps that was Boc's first time catching a glimpse of the trunk.
@@UltraStarWarsFanatic Oh wow, good observation. To Boc even the stump would be an awe-inspiring sight, given the stories he likely grew up with of the erdtree's magnificence. He wouldn't know any better.
The line: "Even now, runes are still imbued with the power of life itself. Do you see the Erdtree towering o'er?" [Golden Rune 3-5] is indeed extremely perplexing if given a single second of attention.
Lucky for us, TA has made a channel dedicated to paying attention to just these things!
The whole idea of “guidance of grace” is odd. That you would need help locating Leyndell when you can just walk in the direction of the giant glowing tree you can see from everywhere. That is only if you can see it.
Absolutely seminal video - Tarnished Archaeologist is one of the greatest lore theorists of all time. Extraordinary work TA
Thanks bud. Looking forward to seeing your thoughts on the DLC, whenever it comes.
Just two community legends tipping caps. Nice
There are a few channels making truly excellent Elden Ring lore content, but even among them TTA's are just something else entirely, so I 100% agree with this statement.
@@peterzarelli1432every video is like watching a history channel documentary
Also want to tip my cap to you Smoughtown. You’re exhaustive work on the literary descriptions and tidying everything up together is fantastic.
It makes TA’s work glow even more as he fills in those crucial details that the word doesn’t cover, tying everything together.
Same tree, different stump, one root.
Imagine being someone living in liurnia after the moon and the erdtree were joined, and converting to erdtree worship.
Suddenly you see this gigantic, monolithic golden tree where there was nothing before. It reaches so high as to nearly touch the clouds.
The feeling of awe would be unimaginable.
Big "oh damn" moment.
I still can't shake the feeling that Gransax is the key to the first burning of the Erdtree. He's such a massive presence in Leyndell's visual storytelling that it's unbelievable that he didn't accomplish something important. The city's walls fell for the first and last time, and then...? Nothing in particular happened? The responsible party died where he stood without so much as an explanation? *Really?*
It also reminds me of a certain promethean myth from GRRM's other work, A Song of Ice and Fire. The folk hero of the Iron Islands, the Grey King, provoked a malevolent Storm God into striking a Weirwood tree with a lightning bolt, setting it ablaze. It was at that moment that humanity was given the gift of fire, or so the story goes...
A "tree of life," a "stormcaller," a "storm entity" with a "lightning bolt," and then... the fire of the gods. It's all very familiar. And truly, what better place to find a promethean myth, than a world where fire itself has been sealed away by God? And what better reason could there be for Gransax to kamikaze Leyndell with a great lightning bolt-- one of legendary status, and indeed the only weapon we ever see a dragon carry-- than to bring fire back to the world? It's like Prometheus carrying the torch to mankind, at great cost to himself...
I think that fits much better with the available information than the timeline TA seems to be proposing here. We know that Lightning Fortification (which is an Erdtree Worship Incantation) was used in the Ancient Dragon War, and we know that Godwyn fought in the Ancient Dragon War. So, the Shattering marking the end of the Age of Plenty as TA is suggesting just doesn’t work. However, if we mark the end of the Age of Plenty with Gransax burning the Erdtree, and the Great Dragon War as the transition between the Age of Plenty and the Erdtree Worship era, the sequence of events makes much more sense.
@@aparker91j Also recall the incantation that Placidusax uses, the one that is reminiscent of the Bolt of Gransax. The bolt is pierced into the ground, and then lightning comes down from the heavens, triggering a massive explosion. Perhaps this incantation is playing out a memory of the calamity that covered Leyndell in ash.
@@UltraStarWarsFanatic so gransax hit Leyndell with the lightning atomic bomb move plasidusax uses? The mental movie I’m watching rn is too epic to not be what the writers wanted
@@user-ns4zm8qe9p Wow. I actually just went back to see a video of the animation after reading your comment, and noticed something. When the explosion hits, several lightning bolts fly up in all directions. For a moment, it actually looks like tree branches engulfed by fire. Probably a coincidence, but a very cool visual.
Video : Elden Ring That One Placidusax Attack.
@@aparker91j Great observation!
I really have to disagree that Marika church statues are all post her imprisonment, even if the pose is the same. That pose is very specific to her and seems to have always been part of her iconography. Its the pose evoking the crowning top rune of the Elden Ring.
First of all, its doubtful anyone entered the Erdtree after the shattering and her/Radagons/ imprisonment, at least until our character does it. So its doubtful anyone saw her in that condition. And her whereabouts are in fact mentioned a mystery for a lot of people. Enia is the only one who knows her fate, but she could have just been informed by the Two Fingers.
Second, hers and Radagons statue in Layndell uses the same model, and it had to have been made during the time when both her and Radagon were still active as rulers of Layndell, as evidence by giant turtle Miriel and his dialogue that gives the hint about the statues secret and the entire Radagon is Marika plot point.
edit: spelling
Yeah, I was raising an eyebrow at that one too.
I think her imprisonment/crucifixion pose being the same as her... blessing of the Erdtree (?) pose is more a case of dramatic irony.
TA is pretty subtle about it here, but he seems to be proposing an alternative to the commonly accepted timeline. If the shattering is tied to the first burning of the Erdtree, and Radagon doesn’t found Golden Order Fundamentalism until after the Erdtree Worship era, that leaves Marika imprisoned within the Erdtree throughout the whole Erdtree Worship era before Radagon merges with her and his vines seal the entrance.
@@rainbowkrampus Exactly!!! I agree completely. Same here. I mean, I love their content usually, but sometimes I feel some of the things they say is just reaching in order to fit in the video topic.
@@aparker91j True, we never had anything but a vague timeline of events. But that proposition would discount the entire point of Melina's dialogue at the Bedchamber site of grace, where Marika flat out tells Radagon "Let us be shattered both, mine other self." Altho it is completely possible for their thesis of Radagon ruling alone for an entire age of Marika's imprisonment to be vindicated, I still believe the shattering of both of them happened concurrently, or close enough in time. But I agree, It is possible.
@@Alex-mn1fb to be clear, I don’t fully agree with TA’s proposed timeline here; I think putting the shattering before the Erdtree Worship era creates too many conflicts with known events like Godwyn fighting in the Ancient Dragon War. But, I do think the idea of there being a span of time during which Marika was imprisoned within the Erdtree but Radagon had not yet sealed it is entirely plausible. In another comment someone suggested that Radagon’s lattice symbol might be a mending rune that he incorporated into the Elden Ring just as the PC tarnished can do at the end of the game, and I think that’s a pretty compelling idea.
I can't get behind the idea that the erdtree only burned when the elden ring was shattered, because so much of the night of black knives HAS to take place AFTER the Golden Order is solidly established. I think the burning timeline that makes most sense, simplified, is that at the end of the age of plenty, the gloam-eyed queen and her godskin apostles took the black flame to burn the erdtree, which led to Marika sealing away the rune of destined death and founding the Golden Order to rebirth the erdtree as we see it now, _then_ the night of black knives which led to the shattering. As a side note, I think this moment of the first burning is a good candidate for the moment of Radagon's creation, as he's some kind of embodiment of the Golden Order within Marika herself, as well as a living omen about the second burning via the giant's flame by way of his red hair.
There isn't much evidence, but certainly the Gloam-Eyed Queen had the means to burn the Erdtree, which is quite damning by itself.
@@Xandros999 Melina's strong involvement with burning the erdtree and her insistence on doing so, as well as being 'burned' is the strongest evidence _if_ you assume she's the Gloam-Eyed Queen, as many do.
@@Neptunequeen42 wrong
I agree with you about the timeline. The assassination happened after the rune of death was taken out of the elden ring, which marks the start of the golden order. Then Marika does the actual shattering of the ring.
@@colorpg152 what insightful discussion
If all of the Erdtree Incantations were developed after the first burning of the Erdtree, then that first burning can not have been the Shattering. Barrier of Gold's description explicitly states that it was used during the First and Second Liurnian Wars. This means that it was developed before the Marriage Alliance between Radagon and Rennala, This means it was before the births of Ranni, Radahn and Rykard. This means it was before Radagon left Rennala to marry Marika and become Second Elden Lord. This means it was before the birth of Miquella and Melania. Enia tells us that as punishment for the Shattering, Marika was imprisoned in the Erdtree. She has presumably been crucified within the Erdtree ever since the Shattering, as it is stated that she has not been seen since the Elden Ring was Shattered. As a result, I cannot believe that Marika married Radagon and had Miquella and Malenia after the Shattering, while crucified. It would also mean that Morgott, Godrick and Godefroy were the only participants of the Shattering civil war who were even born at the start.
There are a few ways of possibly reconciling this. One would be to assume that the first burning of the Erdtree is just a separate event to the Shattering. This means that it likely has nothing to do with Marika giving Melina her purpose of burning the Erdtree, but preserves most of your timeline. Another is to assume that the first burning of the Erdtree is a separate event to the end of the Age of Plenty. The Blessed Dew Talisman states that the Age of the Erdtree "swiftly came to a close." This can have 2 potential meanings: either the Age of Plenty ended in some sudden calamity, such as a great fire burning down the Erdtree; or that the Age of Plenty was relatively a short span of time. The Blessing of the Erdtree incantation states "The Erdtree once flourished with abundance- yet it was only for a fleeting moment. Such is the course of all life." In this description, the Erdtree flourishing is what is described as a fleeting moment. This leads me to believe in the second interpretation - The Age of Plenty as a whole was but a small fraction of the timeline, and so its end was not necessarily some sudden upheaval, but could instead have been more gradual.
I believe that the Age of Plenty ended because the Erdtree simply grew old, and stopped producing its life-giving dew. This was of course a problem for the people of the Lands Between, as they relied on the Erdtree for new births and blessings of good health, but it was particularly a problem for Marika, who had risen to power by tying her image to the Erdtree, and establishing herself as the sole distributor of its blessings. As shown in the Crucible statues, many sprouts grew from the great root system under the Lands Between after whatever led to the death and destruction of the previous Great Tree, but Marika had championed a single, specific Golden Scion, and cultivated it into the Erdtree. Presumably, if the Erdtree died, new sprouts would grow again, and the Lands Between would recover. But when the Great Tree died, its God fled, never to be seen again. If the Erdtree died, that would presumably not be good news for Marika.
So the Erdtree was dying, and no longer producing blessed sap, or tears. But Marika's power and image of divinity was tied to the Erdtree, and she would not let it die. I believe Marika fostered a religion of faith in the Erdtree in spite of the lack of blessings in return. "That age of plenty swiftly came to a close, and with time, the Erdtree became *more* an object of faith" - the Erdtree was still there, but it was now important not because of what it could actually give to the people, but instead because it was a symbol to worship. It's also possible that the reason Marika chose to seal away the Rune of Death was that she believed doing so might undo the decay of the Erdtree, or at least would prevent further degradation. Much later, grieving the deaths of Godwyn and many of her other kin, Marika finally understood the futility of trying to rule eternally, and accepted that the Erdtree needed to die, so something new could replace it. The Elden Ring was Shattered, and the Erdtree was burned. But the Rune of Death was still sealed, and Radagon, still believing wholeheartedly that the Golden Order was perfect and eternal, repaired what he could of the Elden Ring. The Erdtree still clung to fleeting life, and the Lands Between were left in a state of perpetual limbo.
The connection of the erdtree no longer giving births and the removal of destined death makes a lot of sense. Marika would remove it in order to keep her power, there are no more births and blessings, but there is no more death either.
And this doesn't go against the idea of Marika removing it to defeat the Godskin apostles and the Gloam-eye queen. She killed two birds with one stone by removing the rune from the elden ring. The fingers might have even chosen the Gloam-eye queen as a replacement for Marika, seeing how the erdtree could no longer produce blessings and births, the fingers that chose the queen might have seen that it was time to replace her.
The timeline ist defenitiv not good choosen with the Shattering after Erdtree bruning by the TA. Simply the presence of Godwyn and other stuff invalidates this.
The describtion telling a "course of all live" looks as a natural way to me too, like a slowly dying Tree. The too early ending of plenty age could have been longer than TA anticipates in this scenario. But i think somewhere around after that time the burning should have happened in the view of the change of believe.
-"stopped producing its life-giving dew" this is a magical sentence for me as it imprints the fear of death. For whom? The Demigods. Who sealed away destined death away and when? Probably after this llife threatening decline of the Erdtree.
Many new wars where fought, showing the despair. And Radagon as the great repairer of order and the Erdtree itself appeared. Another question is: Was the Erdtree already bruned down when Radagon appeared? Did his "vines" support the great tree or simply a stump? Was the tree burned in his reign, after the hostilities of wars in the declining power of the Erdtree? And yes i think Radagon is the reason why this world is stuck in a meaningless era.
(i like the idea that the Erdtree burned in the shattering. One big reason why it is not really mentioned could be the big lack of consistent history writing in chaotic wartimes, like the dark ages. And that Melina, as a kindling gifted demigod, was somhow conected with Ranni, who is partly responsible for the night of the black knifes and the beginning of the Shattering.
- But i think the incantations are too strong as reasons why the Erdtree burned earlier. )
Enia is knowledgeable about many things, but that is presumably because she has spent centuries (if not millennia) gleaning the words of the Two Fingers. The same Two Fingers who were completely blind-sided by the fact the Erdtree was sealed off by Radagon.
Your points about Marika make me see her as similar to Gwyn in Dark Souls, since their image is tied to the object of faith at the time and losing it means losing power, they choose to go agains the natural order of events in an attempt to keep control, but in the end it just ended up making matters worse
All good points. I wonder if a lot of the disconnect around some of these specifics at this critical juncture are results from differences between what George RR Martin and Miyazaki wrote. Since Martin was given the current version of the world and then was tasked with creating the previous 5k years of history including a bunch of things that might not have actually made sense given the vague directions from FROM. We also know that they were tweaking huge things about the story and characters right up until release, the most memorable being that Horah Loux used to be Goldmask's name, and all the cut stuff about Trina and dreams (which is likely going to be in the DLC in some form). Even then, I can't think of any FROM game that has it's own ancient history very clear to perfection anyway haha.
Let me tell you that right now, yours is the most interesting channel about Elden Ring, and probably the most interesting in general in my feed.
The connections with renaissance, the iconographic references and all, it's a pleasure to learn from this way of investigating
Can you tell me what historian whats he talking about? I hear "Bard Urban".
@@insertenombreingenioso4041 shoud be Bart D. Ehrman
@@sorteinfame Thanks!
Tanta roba. Ho guardato centinaia di video di lore da Dark Souls 1 e questo è di gran lunga il canale migliore.
@@golDroger88 Decisamente, sarebbe interessante vedere dei suoi video anche su Dark Souls 3 o Bloodborne, L'unico che ricordo analizzava elementi simili era KazzArmA, che però credo ora abbia questioni più rilevanti di cui occuparsi essendo Ucraino mi pare.
32:00 when you point out that Radagon's hatching design is a trellis it becomes REALLY obvious that the vines are LITERALLY growing on the trellis. it's crazy that it fits so well
We agree!
Do you think the the vines part of the rootstock or something else?
As an aspiring anthropologist, what you're doing here is fascinating and exactly what I've been wishing someone would do for this game and series as a whole. Only Paleblood Hunt has had similar levels of analysis. I'm deeply impressed.
Charred Thermos also does a very good job for Bloodborne lore. He's pretty new just like Tarnished Archeologist.
There's actually a series by UA-cam creator Charred Thermos that goes even deeper into Bloodborne's lore and inspirations if you're curious. It's called the An Agony of Effort, and discusses at length the state of early medical practice in Edinburg and surrounding territories, and how they were a direct (often 1:1) inspiration for Bloodborne.
Thanks both of you! I'll check him out for sure
The only trouble with this is the fact that in the intro cutscene "Queen Marika is missing." Meaning noone knows where she is. So this means that the statues of her being "crucified" can't be due to her being trapped in the erdtree.
I've considered the possibility that the various prophets, trying to glean her whereabouts, may have seen Marika suspended in the Erdtree and misunderstood the vision. But I haven't even convinced myself of that yet.
To preface the next video about the Fingers, Banished Knights (only the two knights at Castle Sol that wear the umodified version of their chest piece) can actually cast a healing incantation of the Two Fingers on themselves. It's pretty easy to miss if you hadn't fought them dozens of times for said chest piece.
Couldn't you just alter the set from the regular banished knights?
I've never tried it but I thought they normally drop as altered and you could just change it to unaltered in the menu.
Do you really need to farm it?
@@rainbowkrampus Yea, you need to farm it- not every set in the game can be altered and this is (unfortunetely) one of them.
@@rainbowkrampus it took me like 2 hours non stop with all the arcane items to get that armour. Best armour in the game though so it’s worth also nobody else wears it
Nice spot - I didn't know this. The Two Fingers' presence is further noticeable in the mountaintops as Giant-Conquering Hero's Grave is lined with flags with the two fingers symbol on them.
I noticed that as well
Although most of the video is amazing we know for a fact that the shattering didnt happen that early. Because Marika dissapeared right after and the demigods began to war. I agree there was some Erdtree burning, maybe removing the rune of death wasnt as easy as we thought and remving it caused the burning. Also idk where to out the Liurnian wars into the timeline because we know from the turtles Dialogue that right after Godfrey was banished, Radagon married Marika. So Godfrey must have been banished some time after the 2. Liurnian war. This asks the question why he wasnt present in the war though. Maybe they were fighting agaibst the giants at the same time, and thats why Liurnia was able zo defend against Marika and Godfrey and maybe this is why Marika split herself into 2 people so she could fight on 2 fronts. (Imo Marika and Radagon must have been 1 person originally because Radagon somehow had access to a great rune thar he gave to Rennala, The ability of Marikas hammer says it was Radagons signiture move but then why is it MARIKAS hammer and not Radagons hammer, also as the turtle says Radagon was a mere champion and somehow choose as Elden Lord, also sometime after Radagon appears we see Marika doubting the Erdtree etc. And never before probably because he is the part of Marika zhat believed/loved the Golden Order. Also Enia says the demigods each and all are "direct offspring" of queen Marika. This means Radagon must have been Marika otherwise Ranni, Rykard and Radagon wouldnt be direct offspring. I think thed are called demigod stepchildreb in some description because obviously Radagons secret wasnt public so officialy they were just stepchildren.
A couple more points :
1. Rogier speaks of how the Academy of Raya Lucaria once obeyed laws that contravened the Golden Order, but the Golden Order was pliable enough to absorb those practices that contradicted itself in the past. This suggests that the Golden Order existed prior to Golden Order Fundamentalism, which seem to be equated in this video.
2. Marika's spoken echoes about searching the depths of the Golden Order take place at the Church of the Minor Erdtree. This does make it seem like the Minor Erdtrees not only existed, but were objects of worship prior to Marika's imprisonment, as you say.
When I start writing the history of various nations/cultures for my books, I hope that I can be as careful and detailed as From Software's team. Thank you so much for elucidating the niche historical contexts and references that make this lore worth investing in.
I just hope they release what they wrote because now it's difficult to analyze when we don't know exactly what happened... Including the timeline because many people have been disputing about it.
I'll buy that book, take my money future press and from soft... I WANT THAT BOOK 😭😭
In my humble opinion, i'd say the "do you see the tree towering over" line is more like a statement of the validity of the erdtree's presence rather than a direct question if you can see it at all
Yep, as in "see that tree towering over?"
It's to acknowledge its presence moreso than asking whether I can actually see it.
But hey, I'm definitely willing to cut this gentleman some slack, it was clearly a monumentous task to put this video together.
Also the fact that all the NPCs in the Erdtree burning cutscene look up at it in shock confirms that it can be scene.
@@iggyzeta9755 I mean it'd be a giant pillar of fire in the middle of the air in that case so still something to gawk at.
I agree. "You were in Paris? Did you see the Eiffel Tower?!", does not imply that the person asking the question cannot see the Eiffel Tower.
There is also a crone that says: "Surely you see it, too? The gold that enshrouds the heavens. The great tree which begets the pillars of light. O Tarnished, hasten to the foot of the tree." Which may hint that not everyone can see the tree, but also, it may simply be a statement of the obvious. "Surely you see the giant metal tower over there, too? Hurry to its base and enter the elevator, and you can dine at the only cafe in Paris where you don't have to look at it anymore".
If a statement about the Erdtree can also be applied to the Eiffel Tower it is not a statement that must support the notion of not everyone seeing the Erdtree.
But the crones are blind, she might want dou to reassure her that it still exists and rekindle her memory of it
So many Elden Ring lore videos are speculation and projection, but the symbology explored on this channel is so consistent that I find it hard to interpret any other way. This was my first Souls game, and I'm just blown away at how deep the art direction is. Well done.
Dark souls and Bloodborne goes just as deep, hope you can play and enjoy them one day too
I'm always glad to see new fans of the series enjoying the deep lore stuff that's so unique to from software's games
Cheers man
Come on now. Half of these videos are just ridiculous reaching and seeing things where there's nothing.
@@portalmanHUN I feel like he provides enough examples to his claims
Great video! Just as a quick aside in regards to the intro, while the synoptic gospels don’t assert Jesus’ divinity as strongly as John’s gospel, there are still plenty of verses that at the very least directly imply Jesus’ divinity, such as when he is worshiped or when he tells a man his sins are forgiven (such acts would have made his divinity claim very clear to the Jews at that time, hence why some groups started to want to kill him for heresy afterwards). For some reason, a historian (I forget who) said there were no divinity claims in the synoptic gospels and lots of people seem to think that’s true.
Thanks for this thoughtful response. Yes we took a bit of a deliberately extreme position in order to serve the parallel with the illusory Erdtree, but we recognize that most practicing Christians would not agree with this claim. As you said, though, no doubt the Synoptic gospels paint a different picture of JC than does John's.
@@tarnishedarchaeologist that'd be nice to note for futur knowledge. There's quite a few claims you mentioned that are either way out there or flat out wrong (like claiming Jesus never said he was divine/humab incarnation of God, there's a few people who already pasted some verses so I'll spare the wall of text), and I def got a bad impression before I read ur reply here lol 😂
This isn't the coming from the position of a religion Karen, I just don't want people seeing fringe opinions and coming to the wrong conclusion about the validity of your research 👍
@@CopeAndSeeth just like your YT handle, your Cope is evident in this comment, TA's analysis of Jesus is extremely spot on, there is no evidence to this date that shows Jesus clearly ever claimed divinity, the claims of divinity have only been added forward by people who wrote their own Bibles such john and paul etc...
There is a strong anti-Christian bias in academic history that TA has unfortunately let taint his studies. He's a good researcher but has clearly never read the early church fathers like the Cappadocians.
The link between the Newtonian laws of gravity and motion and the Golden Order laws of regression and causality blew my mind... The fact that Radagon can symbolize the Vitruvian Man and Jesus Christ at the same time is quite amazing, too. And those in Leyndell are not roots, but VINES, oh man!
25:57 Could this be a suggestion for a future content on the parallel between Renaissance figures and Liurnian ones? Can't wait!
The Golden Order shares a lot with western alchemy. From the visual likeness of the Squared Circle, the symbol of the result of Magnum Opus, the philosopher's stone to the conjunction of Marika and Radagon, based on the Rebis, the end product of the philosopher's stone, following the very on the nose concept of the hermaphroditic Red King and White Queen who birthed the hermaphroditic figure Hermes the Thrice-Greatest (a clear nod to Miquella, who carries a female form as St. Trina)
Holy shit that never occurred to me. That's a super good point. Maybe the other demigods could represent other elements, like Malenia being Rubedo, Ranni being Albedo, and Godwyn, once being Gold, is now Nigredo
@@thundertwonk1090I find it very likely that the three demigods connected to the butterflies young Miquella - nascent butterflies, rotting Malenia - aeonian butterflies, burned and bodyless Melina - smoldering butterfly are the ones connected to the stages of the great work.
Nigredo the blackening stage of maximum corruption and rot fits with Malenia.
Albedo the burnt ashen white stage free of corruption from the decay fits with Melinas fire theme.
Citrinas the golden/yellow transformation into the philosophers stone or gold depending on interpretation fits with Miquella the one closest to Marikas powers of godhood with his own tree and unalloyed gold order.
Rubedo the completed product gold/philosophers stone Marika the complete empyrean that achived godhood.
If you wonder about why I place Melina as an empyrean then that is her connection to the gloam eyed queen from the previous generation of empyreans along marika. In the frenzied flame ending after you have killed Malekith you not only undoes the seal on destined death you also unlocks Malekiths three clawed beast seal on Melinas eye giving her a gloam eye as she vowes to deliver you destined death so she is connected to her in some way.
I don't know if Ranni and Melina have a connection since both lack a physical body, have a closed eye and a connection to Torrent. The symbol under Rannis eye doesn't seem to be Malekiths three claws, it might be the two fingers since the two squiggly lines look a little similar to the three fingers squiggly symbol. They are both weird in another way Ranni was likely the child of only Radagon and not both him and Rennala as his last gift to rennala in the amber egg "let me hold you little ranni". While Melina with "her mother in the erdtree" might be a splintered of part of Marika to free herself like the splinter daughters of Malenia like Millicent. Remember Ranni as an empyrean must be the child of only a god, not a god and a mortal so she can't be the biological daugther of Rennala. In contrast to the twins of both Radagon and Marika they might be the children of only one of each.
Good point! Indeed many common references to Alchemy. The reason we haven't yet cited Alchemy as a source inspiration is because Alchemy itself is a meta-source, many of its elements formed as a compilation of inspirations from existing spiritual and scientific sources. As a craft that was deliberately decentralized and mystic, Alchemy developed a variety of hot takes borrowing from notions in vogue in other human endeavors. Trismegistus is a good example. Whenever Elden Ring's source inspirations can be attributed more specifically to prior holy books or historical events, we chose to cite those when possible. One could add an asterisk in most these cases and say *also referenced subsequently in Alchemy. However, as you suggest, there are specific mergings characteristic to Alchemy, and those will feature soon enough...!
The book of John has multiple examples of Jesus calling himself divine and the son of God, both directly and through the reactions of other people to what he said, though not in so many words. But I think your point about the difference in what he taught and the religion that sprung up around him was interesting. Especially given the 2 and 3 finger schism that happened later, like, that has absolutely nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus, or the rest of the bible.
He calls himself the great I AM. 100% claim of divinity.
The issue there is that John is the gospel written the latest, and early ones have him call himself rabbi
Indeed, the early Cappadocian fathers wrote about the divinity of Christ so much they directly influenced the Nicene Creed. I get the whole "Comparative Religions" narrative he is running with but it simply isn't entirely true in this case. You can easily go back and read the writing of the early fathers and they are not so different from the gospels.
So that means that just like Fía, The Dung Eater and The Golden Mask; Radagon was an extraordinary person who with his will gave birth to a Mending Rune, his characteristic mark! That explains why it didn't appear before, it's not like the runes of the demigods that Marika distributed to her children taken directly from the Elden Ring, no, the rune of Radagon was created by him and he attached it himself to the Elden Ring!!!
That… makes so much sense!
This should be written in huge letters, as it it makes a lot of sense. He is Radagon of the Golden Order, afterall, the most loyal of all Golden Order loyalist and most fundamental of all Golden Order fundamentalists. Yes, I can easily agree that he would sacrifice himself to become a trellis to Elden Ring/Erdtree, both spiritually with his Mending Rune and physically with vines/thorns.
@@hiddenshadow2105 imo he and Marika were 1 person and he was the part of her that had the Ideals and believes of the golden order. So once she cuts of that part of her into a seperta being it makes sense that Radagon is a "leal hound of the order" and Marika starts to "search the depths of the order" and eventually shatters the ring.
No, it's more likely a third type. The demigods have great runes. The tarnished have mending runes. Marika and Radagon have elden runes, as described on their scarseal/soreseal talismans. Perhaps discarding an eye is a prerequisite to discover such a rune, ala Odin in Mimir's well.
Excellent point!
It’s not just the content, it’s the way you structure the video itself. Best Elden Ring lore-hunter out there. Hands down.
The Erdtree appears transparent when looked at from Liurnia, as if it's not really there, and the player character is subject to some sort of force that either influences or opens their mind. Thank you for these incredible explanations - I've been wondering since release. Also, mindblown at Radagon's source of power. Keep it up!
Imagine Gideon Ofnir's perspective. He likely still saw grace until sometime after you defeated Morgott but before you burned the Erdtree. Imagine giving up on the two fingers' quest, having your grace revoked, and suddenly seeing the erdtree for what it truly is, a diseased, dying stump. No wonder he tries to stop us.
No, he simply realized that Marika's actual Elden Lord plan involved a tarnished becoming strong enough to slay a god. Gideon thought this was impossible and you angering whatever that was in that tree would doom everyone.
@@portalmanHUN If you don't attack Gideon right away, he surmises that Marika intends for the Tarnished to engage in endless struggle.
this man cant stop dropping bangers
The question is though: if the Erdtree we see at the beginning of the game is mostly phantom, along with all of its branches and leaves - where does this huge amount of ash come from to cover Leyndell? What is exactly is burning in this burning then if most of the Erdtree is already a phantom? The stump-under-golden-shell remains the same in Mending endings, so what significant mass was burnt in our burning? You cannot burn faith phantoms and get real physical ash. One can argue it is from the vines, but I don't think these vines will be quite enough to cover the whole city in such amount of ash.
Another question is: if vines grow upward, why so many of the vines around Erdtree Sanctuary grow downward, very much in appearance like roots?
This is the central question! Even if we buy that the ash in the city is from a previous burning, there has to be *something* there, something significant, to produce so much *more* ash than was there when we first step into Leyndell. I think there was a previous burning in the city, either of a minor erdtree, so there’s not as much ash, or of the Erdtree but the tree survived in some way.
@@schonmpPresumably a prior burning would have been cleaned to some extent. Thus, we do not know that the burning during the game produced more ash than the prior burning-only that it produced enough to bury most of the city.
Perhaps the prior burning only burned the canopy, but left much more than a root stump. We assume the stump is all that remains because that’s where the visible gash in the golden sheath ends.
But, it could be that the Golden sheath is actually mostly over an intact but branchless trunk, with an opening at the bottom to allow access to the Elden Ring. This would be more structurally sound, after all.
Thus, the current golden branches and the sheathing of the trunk are illusion, but the entire trunk (most of the mass of a tree that size) is still there. This is what burns all the way down to the stump, and the illusion dispelled.
That would produce ample ash to bury the city again, and does not require that it be more or less ash than the first burning.
All this supposes that as a phantom or spectre the Erdtree somehow isn't still real. This is too limited a view for such a fantasy setting, or even, in some cases, real life.
All other spirits and conjurations in the game are also real, able to affect the world and be affected, and even leave 'blood' upon the physical upon death.
The Erdtree as we see it is a real entity, even if only some could see it if that is what the game implies, and can still leave real effects on the world, in this case ash in its burning.
I also mention that this objectivity is not useful in real life either, as it is becoming more common practice to recognise even hallucinations as real to the people that experience them, say in mental health medicine, and that everyones lives in general are shaped by their own subjective experiences and perceptions.
The Erdtree Phantom that burns is still real and still produces ash is the simple answer.
Oh also, another addition as evidence of this concept of even the subjective or percieved being real, the ties TA points out in their video on the Frenzied Flame to a real parasitic disease that causes blindness and also visual hallucinations, and the discussions on how this and other conditions with similar symptoms can affect ones life, ones reality, shows that its absolutely a concept Fromsoftware are exploring in Elden Ring.
Had a thought. Ancestral Spirits constantly sprout even when dead. You can also enter their corpse and into that strange area which I wander has a similarity to how you enter the Erdtree which I'm now starting to view as a spirit.
There's definitely a common theme of the body dying but the spirit persisting long after
I think they have a much larger connection to Torrent but I'm not 100% on how to explain it
@@cloroxusthestainlessone4324torrent is an ancestral spirit. check out the skeletons, they seem like deer at first but are not.
Having the Golden Order be formed AFTER the shattering makes no sense in a timeline
the shattering occurred AFTER the Night of Black Knives
which occurred AFTER the removal of the Rune of Death from the elden ring
which CAUSED the formation of the Golden Order and Golden Order Fundamentalism
so the Golden Order has to have come into being either BEFORE or ALONGSIDE the shattering
so the first burning of the Erdtree cannot have occurred before the Golden Order was formed
I think something that has to be taken into account is denominational faith and sects
assuming a strict progression of one to the other is causing seemingly unmissable timeline errors
Agreed, there are certainly progressions, but the strict timeline he is forcing based on imagery rather than on our knowledge of events is screwing things up.
The progression might even be correct in terms of which denominations were most dominant at which points in time, but they coexisted at different points 100%. It's not like Eastern Orthodox replaced Roman Catholoicism, or that Protestant beliefs stamped out Catholic ones
all the time you see the tree, symbolising this world of the lands between you think of its overshadowing Almight. But hen you enters Leyendell, you slowly feels betrayed. Thre tree looks at first look damaged, with the dark notch with the entrance. When you finally stands at the Palace grounds, you begins so wonder, why this glowing Bark part looks so surreal. Back then when i first heard, that it is simply a phantom, a spirit of the burned tree it all made sense. The mountains of ashes, which could only come from the tree. Such vast quantities of ashes that the Tree could not stayed safe as how it looks.
I think the desperation that most of the Tarnished and also the inhabitants there have comes from that. Because even if it is a beautiful illusion of a healthy tree, it remains a lie.
Why do the Tarnished want to go into the sacred interior unwaveringly? For them there is a tree enthroned above the world, shining in full splendour like a divine miracle without doubt.
For them, the power of the Elden Ring is undoubtedly supreme. What if that is why the Tarnished were banished? Should they not be closer to the true faith, the divine nature?
The reordering of the faith or the burning itself made them banished. The seat of the Tarnished with Godfrey was just below the tree. Perhaps they also all lost their grace through the burning, or having partaken of it through the sin of the time.
But I think the meaning of the Tarnished, which is an important key to understanding the Lands Between, comes from this context
Of course! The arrival of the Golden Beast was in an Asteroid - which are often pack full of gold! Didn't even think of it before I saw the picture you put up. You never cease to blow my mind with these.
Erdtree having been burned down once already, and some characters unable to see the Erdtree just blew my mind! The initial burning presumably at the hands of Marika who shattered the Elden Ring is finally making sense of how she destroyed it and why as a consequence her appearance is statue/rock like. It's not rock but the appearance of wood after being burned down, it's charcoal and ash kept together! Wow! She burned herself, and is only kept together by Radagon and ER! No wonder when Melina goes to see her mother inside the ER she comes away with the impression that her purpose is to be the kindling maiden!
but didn't she just smash it with a hammer to shatter it? or do you mean that the tree suddenly combusted when the ring was shattered?
don't we watch her shatter it with her hammer? I don't think the timelines match up here
@@wqeerwqeer1375 Yes in the intro cut scene we see Marika/Radagon using a hammer, the narrator saying the ER is shattered.
In gameplay, however, we learn that the ER is housed inside Marika's body, the same way all the other great runes are inside some type of body. We also know that the true form of the ER is the EB.
Imo, the intro cutscene was a way to convey the story without actually showing how things happened. Certainly, we also see the abduction of Miquella by Mough and in that picture he's tiny, meanwhile he's huge and in a cocoon when we fight Mough.
In game, we see Marika's body severely damaged. It occured presumably after the shattering. If the ER is inside her, than her own body had to be shattered in some type of way. She also couldn't have fought the EB because the EB literally crafts her body into a sword, and while it still needs a body, it's not going to destroy the current host, esp with Radagon side still working to it's favour. The only leverage Marika has is what she does with her body. And if she, in grief, self harmed some way, like throwing herself in the fire of her forge...you know. She'd do a lot of damage before Radagon took over.
On the other hand, if you don't want to accept the symbolic explanation, and Marika did somehow remove the entire ER aka EB from her, put it on an anvil, and shattered it with a hammer...We do see Radagon in a forge, smithing something in the cinematic. Where did the fire come from to set the Erdtree ablaze? The forge.
@@launchbase4944 Yes in the intro cut scene we see Marika/Radagon using a hammer, the narrator saying the ER is shattered.
In gameplay, however, we learn that the ER is housed inside Marika's body, the same way all the other great runes are inside some type of body. We also know that the true form of the ER is the EB.
Imo, the intro cutscene was a way to convey the story without actually showing how things happened. Certainly, we also see the abduction of Miquella by Mough and in that picture he's tiny, meanwhile he's huge and in a cocoon when we fight Mough.
In game, we see Marika's body severely damaged. It occured presumably after the shattering. If the ER is inside her, than her own body had to be shattered in some type of way. She also couldn't have fought the EB because the EB literally crafts her body into a sword, and while it still needs a body, it's not going to destroy the current host, esp with Radagon side still working to it's favour. The only leverage Marika has is what she does with her body. And if she, in grief, self harmed some way, like throwing herself in the fire of her forge...you know. She'd do a lot of damage before Radagon took over.
On the other hand, if you don't want to accept the symbolic explanation, and Marika did somehow remove the entire ER aka EB from her, put it on an anvil, and shattered it with a hammer...We do see Radagon in a forge, smithing something in the cinematic. Where did the fire come from to set the Erdtree ablaze? The forge.
Yes in the intro cut scene we see Marika/Radagon using a hammer, the narrator saying the ER is shattered.
In gameplay, however, we learn that the ER is housed inside Marika's body, the same way all the other great runes are inside some type of body. We also know that the true form of the ER is the EB.
Imo, the intro cutscene was a way to convey the story without actually showing how things happened. Certainly, we also see the abduction of Miquella by Mough and in that picture he's tiny, meanwhile he's huge and in a cocoon when we fight Mough.
In game, we see Marika's body severely damaged. It occured presumably after the shattering. If the ER is inside her, than her own body had to be shattered in some type of way. She also couldn't have fought the EB because the EB literally crafts her body into a sword, and while it still needs a body, it's not going to destroy the current host, esp with Radagon side still working to it's favour. The only leverage Marika has is what she does with her body. And if she, in grief, self harmed some way, like throwing herself in the fire of her forge...you know. She'd do a lot of damage before Radagon took over.
On the other hand, if you don't want to accept the symbolic explanation, and Marika did somehow remove the entire ER aka EB from her, put it on an anvil, and shattered it with a hammer...We do see Radagon in a forge, smithing something in the cinematic. Where did the fire come from to set the Erdtree ablaze? The forge.
Every time I watch one of these videos it convinces me further just how much Elden Ring is a legitimate masterpiece.
Love your content! I think you make by far the most consistent elden ring theories and lore and i love the incorporation of real life examples and inspirations into the world of elden ring. Thank you so much for continuing to make this astounding content!
Your perspective is always appealing to hear, even if there are things that can't work with what we know - the timeline presented by the game clearly makes out the stalemate after Shattering War to be the latest great event and not some distant past thing. This places the wars in Liurnia way earlier than the shattering of the Elden Ring, since it is clearly stated that Marika herself went missing when the Elden Ring was shattered but, she was present to "marry" Radagon after he left Rennala, which happened after the closing of those wars by way of Radagon repenting his aggression and ending up marrying Rennala. The sealing of the Rune of Death also has to have happened way before the Shattering, else all the depictions of the Elden Ring without the Rune of Death wouldn't make sense.
And how would a phantom tree produce ash when burned? And not just a little ash, enough to bury the vast majority of Leyndell completely. The Guidence of Grace is clearly something only a rare few can see, at this point we the player are amongst the remaining few. Yet the Erdtree itself not being visible to most? I can see the golden glow being invisible to demi-humans (Boc somehow is awed by the sight of it when in Leyndell, yet it's visible from literally everywhere in the Lands Between?), Albunerics and other "non-favored" beings. Even then, it might just be that being so close is what makes it awe inspiring. Seeing a huge mountain from a distance isn't the same as standing at the foot of it, after all. The tree being an object of faith might just mean that the tree itself is otherwise "useless", it's just a giant, beautiful, glowing tree, with no blessings falling from it anymore.
Interesting evidence and perspective, even if the conclusion is a little off.
I love how it's possible to enjoy playing Elden Ring without any prior knowledge about the game. You can simply engage in combat and progress through the game. However, there is an immense depth of meaning behind every piece of equipment you discover, the surrounding scenery, and the cryptic stories that people share with you. I am fascinated by this aspect of the game.
Maybe since Melina talks about wondering why she loves burned and bodiless, she was the kindling for the first burning as well.maybe since there's the theory that she's the gloam eyed queen that Marika used her as kindling to burn the crucible form of the erdtree after defeating her and that's why she can't remember much and shes bodiless. Maybe Marika just told her a bunch of lies like your my daughter born in the erdtree just to keep her under control and have her working for her then
Wow, I have been bothered by Melina for a while, if Marika is the god of the age she might have the power to rebirth the gloam eyed queen. It could track that Melina was reborn from Marika but is the gloam eyed queen. Is there any translation that confirms if it is gloam eyed prural or singular? Queen with the gloam eye
Melina might have some lingering memories of creating the black flame since she both knew how to burn the erdtree and where to send us to find Destined Death. Marika might have used her since she had the tools to finish what she started with the shattering.
@@zenebean maybe she just instinctively knew where to go since she's linked it, like an animal knows to hibernate or go south for the winter. She's just naturally drawn to it
"The fallen leaves tell a story." Amazing video. I love the seamless blending of real vs. fantasy world delving that has been incorporated.
Literally every time I watch one of your videos I end up nodding along and pointing at the screen like "oh my god, that's it! The connection! It all makes sense now!!" no matter which topic you are covering. Thanks for another banger video, can't wait to continue watching you untangle this web!
The theory about First Burning is sound indeed, but I still can't reconcile it with one thing - how can the Erdtree’s trunk be a magical projection AND still produce extra ash when we burn it in the end of the game?
the vines aren't a part of the projection and when they burned they produced more ash
@@lurksmcgee there are definitely not enough vines through the city to produce THAT much ash to bury the city
So I thought the shattering of the elden ring by Marika was one of the later events in the timeline, wouldn't it have to take place AFTER the rune of death is sealed, meaning when the golden order was formed? But if the erdtree burning is when it shattered, that means somehow the defeat of the gloam-eyed queen happens when Marika has already been crucified?
That's an interesting point, maybe there is a distinction between "taking Destined Death away from the gloam-eyed queen" and removing it completely from the Ring itself.
Like the talisman which calls Godfrey the first Elden Lord, there is misinformation in the Lands Between surrounding the GEQ.
What the truth is, I'm not sure we can definitively say, but there is a lie/falsehood in that story somewhere.
The timeline presented here is simply wrong. I do believe there was a first burning of the Erdtree, but TA is mistaken in tying that burning to the shattering, it is throwing off his placement of events terribly.
He states the erdtree worship period follows the shattering, but this is impossible. Godwyn's death and the Night of Black Knives instigated Marika's shattering of the Elden Ring, but Godwyn clearly was alive during the Ancient Dragon War, where lightening fortification(an Erdtree Worship incantation) was used.
Tying the shattering to the first burning is messing things up.
I was already struggling with the placement of the Shattering as presented here, also because Godwyn dying that early on doesn't make sense to me. The Golden Epitaph states that it was made to commemorate the death of Godwyn and is "infused with the humble prayer of a young boy" that calls Godwyn lord brother. To me, this could only be Miquella, which would mean that Radagon was already Marika's other half when the Night of the Black Knives took place. And although it's not explicitly stated, the cinematic of Marika and Radagon repeatedly shattering and mending the Elden Ring would support this too
when the erdtree was burn the shattering happened and the erdtree has being burn more than once, then the answer is that the shattering has happened more than once.
I don't think there is a reason to think that is the first time that happened neither would be the last (ignoring the perfect order ending ofc)
I've been binge watching your works through a tough period IRL, so thanks for the distractions--and the botany and history lessons. I've been able to finally have inspiration to continue working on some Elden Ring art projects.
Regardless of anyones agreement or disagreement--I think those nuances come down to our interpretation, until we get further information. If anything, it's an envisioning of what's going with the game--characters like Ranni, Goldmask, and Miquella are seeking. If we stick to the accepted fundamentals too much, it eventually can stagnant and slow progress. Sometimes a different view, with its own roots, or no roots at all, is necessary, even if initially seeming extreme. Yet it does not always disqualifies previous understandings. Also the entire point of what has happened in our own history.
I do think the Golden Order was around before, but then after the burning, there was a great deviation. Similar to religions in our own pasts. Templars today and Templars then have very different meanings. There's not enough information until more is officially released? But if the tree was burned first around the shattering, that would explain the collapse more so. Deaths and rebirths were frozen almost jointly, which aligns with Miyazaki's view. Death is not per se the opposite of life, but are still interconnected.
I guess my only question is why don't we have more clear facts on these catalysts. I could understand vagueness on the Great Tree or older history and less definition on when it took place-- but the Shattering was so clearly documented, then why not the first burning?
Also my empty braincell head was shook when I realized that not everyone can see the phantom/grace tree...woooaahh that makes so much dialogue and hints clearer.
anyway, thank you for the hard work!
- @SueDraws
I appreciate your approach to lore/evidence. It gives me an organic way of taking in the game. Thanks
Glad you enjoy it!
I'm a bit concerned you didn't address the tension inherent in your timeline, namely that if the shattering marked the end of the era of abundence, but marika was the one who started the golden order, how can that be reconciled with the fact that she was imprisoned FOR shattering the elden ring?
You've been consistent enough in your insights that I'm sure you'll come back to it, but it seems too big of a question to not even mention it here.
yes. super notable. I need to hear a lot more about this.
dudes a bit concerned lol
It is the Lord's blessing that we are able to question him at all. He doesn't admonish us for thinking differently and forming our own opinions and interpretations about his teachings and intentions, but welcomes such ideas. We cannot begin to understand his mind, and we shouldn't ask for such. He has a plan for us all. ✝️
I will reiterate something I said in your previous video. While this is a provocative theory and I do see the logic behind it, it baffles me that there is literally nothing physical in the game that commemorates the burning of the Erdtree. There is no dialogue, no scripture, no statues, effigies, prayers, nothing. It would be impossible for such an event to be completely hidden from the Lands Between entirely, considering the sheer amount of factions that hold no true allegiance to the Erdtree faithful, dispite their dominance.
While its not an impossible theory, and may even be likely, I cannot get over the fact that such an event occured and no one recorded it. Especially if it happened before the Shattering. What are your thoughts on this?
Less than 50k subscribers...... I can't wait to watch this channel blow up, especially with the sheer quality and absorb-able information.
Wow, thank you!
I'm finally starting to see other youtubers referring to your channel. You deserve it. They could all benefit from integrating your findings into their work.
This is an phenomenal episode! The phantom Erdtree makes so much sense.. actually blown away by this revelation!
The best lore channel on UA-cam!
WAIT WAIT WAIT , I don't understand one point: is TA implying that the Shattering precedes Liurnian Wars and sealing of the Death Rune? Because that would be impossible. Radagon married Rennala (ergo sired Ranni) after the Liurnian Wars and conspired for the Night of Black Knives using the Death Rune stolen by Maliketh, who had it sealed. Therefore both events predate the Night, which is said to have triggered (thus: preceded) the Shattering.
Am I missing a step here?
It's just a theory video for fun, I wouldn't take it too seriously. Just some fun history to pass the time. Litterly every theory video gets something wrong and goes down a rabbit hole of wrong conclusions.
TA gets stuff wrong too but usually isolated from the rest of the stuff presented with actual evidence.
@@petercottantail7850 sure it's theorycrafting for fun. And the bottom line of that fun is, trying to come up with good theories. Now TA is usually insightful about lots of stuff (nearly everythijg he says in this video about the Order is more spot-on than 90% of lorehunters videos around) and it stands out if he misses such important details.
New Tarnished Archeologist video? Today is a good day
I definitely buy the Erdtree having been burned before, and linking it to the shattering of the Elden Ring makes a lot of sense, but I'm really not sure the timeline lines up such that all that could happen *before* the creation of the Golden Order.
I'll have to look up the various descriptions and flavor text again, but I seem to recall the game implying pretty heavily that the Shattering followed (possibly "was directly caused by") the Night of Black Knives, which one would assume would have to take place *after* the removal of the Rune of Death and its sealing by Maliketh.
But I may be remembering wrong, or just not understanding the video.
Every time TA supports his analysis with botany I seriously pop off lol. Hell yeah
Damn you never fail top put out the most well thought out and well researched lore videos on UA-cam. Your analysis of the game's environmental storytelling and the way you tie in game lore with irl history is second to none.
While I'm open to the idea the Erdtree might've been burned before (though I'm not so convinced that I wouldn't accept that it wasn't), I must disagree with the timeline you present here.
There are a few things the create issues if Marika was already impreasoned by the time Radagon left Renalla. The biggest one is the Spoken Echoes of Queen Marika that Melina tells us. "O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered both. Mine other self."
This is a spoken echo that lingered in the Queen's bedchamber, not inside the Erdtree. This tells us 1) That Queen Marika and Radagon both existed separated outside the Erdtree, implying that this was before her imprisoment; 2) That Radagon was Marika's consort by the time she shattered the Elden Ring, seeing as she litterally says 'let us be shattered both' and also seeing as the story trailer both shows us Marika and Radagon being shattered themselves as they shattered the Elden Ring. At the very least, Radagon was there when Marika shattered the Elden Ring.
Not only that, but the's a lot of evidence connecting Radagon to Marika even before he departed from Liurnia, like the fact he sworn the preceptors to secrecy, or the fact he gave Renalla a Great Rune of the Elden Ring.
You have such an amazing way of putting together all the pieces of lore, and their real world references, it has really made me appreciate this game on another level, thank you for all the hard work
You’re perspective on lore videos is so different from all the other channels like it. The way you use the environment to tell the stories rather then the descriptions is so awesome. I really hope you do some videos on other fromsoft games. P.S I have a degree in archaeology and anthropology and I can confirm the way you analyze this world is so similar to how we study human history in these disciplines. Bravo man.
I find it unlikely that the Shattering happened so long before the formation of the Golden Order. The Shattering Wars seemed to be one of the most recent events in the history of the Lands Between. Also the timeline you showed has a mistake: if the Shattering happened at the end of the Ancient Erdtree era, then Godwyn was killed at that time as well. Yet you portray Godwyn's alliance with the dragons as happening in between the Ancient Era and the Golden Order one.
Yeah I agree. Hard to imagine Godwyn, Ranni, Radahn and Rykard all born during the Age of Plenty if it was so fleeting. All three faiths would've been formed during the fleeting Age of Plenty if the Shattering is what ended it. There is no way the Golden Order was formed after the Shattering. The Golden Order is simply the latest creed of the Erdtree religion, established by Radagon during his rule as Elden Lord
TAs take on this seems to be that the shattering (breaking the elden ring) and the shattering (the war of the demigods) are seperated much more like normally assumed. And Godwyns dead leading to the shattering wars and not the shattering of the elden ring itself.
I like to imaging the shattering was kept secret by the golden linage, godwyn and the other demigods which formed the souvereign alliance. They were the first line of lyndells defense for the attack of the ancient dragons that followed.
It was only after the alliance broke much later after the murder of godwyn that the war started and the shattering was proclaimed by the demigods.
Absolutely incredible! I expect nothing less when I get notified of a new TA video, yet still I finish the video with chills and a big goofy smile of awe and wonder! I think also you've perfected the cliffhangers, I already can't wait for the next one! Cheers and thanks for all that you do!
Wow, thank you!
You are absolutely amazing. I love how you do lore! Never stop posting content, you speak to my inner history nerd and gamer nerd. Thank you!
(Smoughtown sent me to your channel)
Wow, thanks!
I’d also note that Radagon sealed off Raya Lucaria; the seal there has his trellis symbol, while every other magic seal is a blue wall with the crest of the caster
This is one crazy timeline you're assembling here, in a very different order than many people think. I look forward to hearing a lot more details about how that sequence adds up. It introduces many mysteries, such as the meaning of Maliketh's sword and the night of black knives if the Rune of Death hasn't been removed from the elden ring yet; how Godwyn participated in the dragon war seemingly after his death; whether Raya Lucaria, sealed for the shattering, has been shut up the entire time since then or if it's flip-flopped for some reason.
It seems TA got the timeline wrong here
@@wh1pla5h Maybe. But they are normally quite meticulous about details, so it's hard for me to believe they've completely overlooked so much stuff. For this channel, I'm willing to believe there's some interesting explanation that they have yet to share, and if so, I'd love to hear it.
@ZAK Magnus If you actually pay attention to the videos, TA does routinely partake in reaching. While his content is great and the novel approach is very important, he often get caughtup in his interpretations and get things wrong as a result.
A good example here is how he places the shattering before the coming of Radagon. Which is just impossible and wrong. They couldn't possibly have met, married and have children all the while Marika was forced to T-pose. Especially since the only echoes of a discussion between the two are found outside the Erdtree. Another mistake assuming that Marika's poses represents here chained down by the Greater Will, which is impossible as well since no one actually saw her in this state, rather than simply assuming the rune arc pose.
I think the confusion stemmed partly from just how insanely compelling it is that the Erdtree would work like a sequoia, releasing seeds only when it burns. Hence the lore saying the tree released seeds during the shattering makes it _very_ tempting to say it was burning then-even if unfortunately that goes against the rest of the evidence. I think there are ways to address this, but yeah as it was stated in this video it’s not perfect.
One thing regarding the Ashen Capital at the end of the game... The city is covered in far more ash and is basically destroyed by the supposed 2nd burning. So how could the second burning of the Erdtree be so much more destructive than the first, if the thing that you're burning is mostly an illusion? It doesn't really make sense.
What I find interesting is that Radagon made an error with his grid. It is clear he adopted the grid as a defense from the Raya Lucaria gate grid, but there is one big difference, Raya Lucaria's grid is patterned with equilateral triangles, but Radagons rune is made of only squares, a less stable shape.
Great catch. He does have triangles in his symbol according to his scarseal, but you're not completely off base.
@@exquisitedoomlapointe185 true there is the central line, but it doesn't hadd much structural stability compared to the equilateral triangle base in general
For an Xbox Live profile picture-lookin fella, your ability to delineate avenues of perception and interpretation is utterly tantalizing. Your work has turned near my entire reading on its head. Well done indeed.
I never noticed that the Erdtree we see was a Phanthom! that explains SO much and also some of the odd lighting seen throughout the lands between; incredible!
I feel like they could use a bit more lightning, it's so random it's cool. 😎 ⚡ 🌧️
After 800 hours this game is still blowing my mind. This channel is a gem
I love everything about this video, but now I'm more confused by the timeline - how did Marika shatter the Elden Ring, and then go on to have Miquella and Malenia and still be known - i.e. not imprisoned? And if Radagon arrived with the founding of the Golden Order, why does someone as pious as Corynth speak of him like he's a nobody and that Marika is the one true god?
The principles of Radagon informed the Golden Order. But he's not the source of it. That's still Marika, as vessel of the ring.
Radagon is more like a revered priest than a figure of worship. In most places. Obviously there are 3-4 churches of Radagon worship. But I think their low number is indicative that the practice was not common.
But also, Corhyn is tarnished and it is ostensibly his task to become Elden Lord. Even though he abandons the task, seemingly, it was at one point his job to take Radagon's former position. So Corhyn would likely view himself as about equal to Radagon. Or at least, he did at one time.
(ETA) "... he's not the source of it, as far as people in the Lands Between are aware."
@@rainbowkrampus Right, Radagon informed about the Golden Order and built its teaching based on what he learned about the universe in Raya Lucaria.
Easily the most interesting content related to Elden Ring. Thank you for your videos, I have friends who never played elden ring but got them to listen to your videos at work.
aaaah That idea of other people maybe not seeing the Erdtree has been bothering me for so long im glad you said it! The confirmation i was waiting for was for the game to show us the phantom tree disappearing, maybe when it is burned or at any other time. But it stays there throughout the game so i kinda dropped that line of thought, feeling like i couldnt take it further. But it gives such a different meaning and tone to all the NPC's who stare longingly in it's direction, or at other Erdtrees. Hell, it maybe even changes the context of those paintings in Volcano Manor, which have the tree burning. (Can anybody dedicated to the Manor's cause even see the phantom tree??)
I think i initially thought about it when meeting Blackguard Boggart for the first time. He wonders why the Greater Will decided a screw up like him should be shown grace. It made me think again for the first time in hours that not everyone can see the trails of light that Boggart and i are shown. Which made me remember how i was eventually waiting for the game to take the guidance of grace from me entirely (i thought it may be a natural course of events if i leaned as heavy as possible into INT and all things glintstone.)
I think later too, when i got to Castle Sol and started to try to put stuff together about the Eclipse. Im thinking, "man how can anybody even see the sun when the Erdtree covers basically the entire sky? i dont get any of this." But again, without any status change of the phantom tree, i kinda just dropped it. But im fully back on that train now. It plays into my favorite aspect of the game, how so many in-universe conclusions come down to the perspective of the individual characters. Not only visual or physical perspective, but philosophical as well, and how they determine the laws of the universe.
Holy crap this is such a great narrative and your videos are amaziiiingngn
Ahhhh, that explains my own issues with people referencing the sun; I'd assumed the Erdtree provided all light in the Lands Between.
I started the game thinking I would mostly focus on magic. However I started as a confessor and the Golden Order incantations, particularly the fundamentalist ones, really charmed me. So I ended up with a hybrid sorcery and incantations build. The whole concept of the Golden Order is fascinating and really drew me to it.
Sooooo....
If Godwyn died before the burning, how did Lightning spells and Dragon worship come after it?
Also,if the Night of the Black Knives occurred before the burning, then where are Ranni and Rykard, who were born after the Liurnian Wars? Is there something you're hiding?
Yet another banger from the triple OG. Thank you for the amazing insight TA, keep up the hard work.
The idea that the Erdtree is invisible to most except to those tha see the guidance of grace is blowing my mind...
I can't think of a single npc pointing to the erdtree in a way that acknowledges it or item description. I wonder if anyone can debunk this, if nobody can, then T.A is onto something here.
@@exquisitedoomlapointe185 The only one that comes to mind is Goldmask but it makes sense for him to see it because he's guided by grace like we are. You can see it in the intro to the game with the sliver of grace next to him.
@@Alam220696 And that is further support to the theory. Good catch.
@@exquisitedoomlapointe185 When you reach Leyndell, Boc says:
"Master, did you see it? Th-the Erdtree? I, oh, I don't really have the words for this... but I was so dazzled, I felt something stir, in my breast. The Erdtree is waiting for you, Master. I knot it, I do. I feel it in my bones."
@@Razhork Hmm. Good catch, that one seems to contradict.
This channel is by far the best souls lore channel I’ve ever watched. Only one who comes close is Hawkshaw.
I would love for you to make a more “clickable” one time video to enlarge the community because you really deserve this. Maybe a summarisation of the timeline informed by all the forensic evidence you picked up.
Keep up the awesome work.
Hi TA! Thanks for the new video, it’s beautiful as always. This time around, though, I think there’s something that needs to be addressed in your reconstruction. Having such a scholarly mind, I’m sure you’ll take my criticism for what it is, a meeting of interpretations and ideas I’d like to have with someone whose work I really enjoy.
I disagree with you when you conflate the shattering of the Elden Ring with the end of the Age of Plenty. I suspect that you’re shrinking the timeline too much, thus leaving the many changes Marika’s order underwent very little room to breathe.
Just some things that run counter to your reconstruction of events:
- The end of the War against the Giants is very explicitly characterized as the true beginning of the Golden Order. Why?
- The Golden Order needs to have time to develop and transition from its Crucible form (unashamedly Hoarah-Loux-ian) to its more refined form (whereas the Godfrey persona becomes a necessity) and that again to become so refined as to needing a general reform under Radagon, in the form of the Golden Order.
- Miquella already exchanged Golden Order incantations with his father since his childhood, presumably before the Elden Ring was shattered.
- The worst of all: Marika has been imprisoned in the Erdtree for shattering the Ring, which she did with Radagon at her side, according to her own words. She can’t have exiled Godfrey and recalled Radagon after shattering the Ring, if Godfrey’s age closes with her doing just that.
I could go on, but there are too many that don’t add up. Instead, I think it’s more likely that it went something like: early conquests and conversions -> Reign of Godfrey/Age of Plenty -> a series of ground-shaking events (the Erdtree grows old and starts giving sings of decay, Gransax attacks, the Prophecy of the Flame of Ruin burning the Erdtree coming up, more omen births, including royal babies, the GMQ, etc…) -> Sealing of the Rune of Death and banishment of Godfrey -> Reign of Radagon/Age of the Golden Order -> Night of the Black Knives/shattering of the Ring/burning of the Erdtree).
In this reconstruction, the Erdtree icons should go like this: Crucible icon = early days of conquest -> Cross icon = mature Age of Plenty, when Marika needs to cement her rule in a mostly peaceful empire -> Golden Order icon = Age of Radagon, where the Erdtree becomes an object of faith, immortal and perfect.
I’d like to talk with you in detail about this, but it’d take too long. Still, there’s a couple of things I need to expand upon:
- The Age of Plenty corresponds to Godfrey’s reign, as it seems abundantly clear. It seems that people can die naturally in this age, since this is part of what makes these ancient men champions: “they knew what was at stake”.
- This would be the time when the Erdtree would most need to be flexible, because everything is still opposed to it. This early flexibility can be seen with how it treated, to more or less harsh extents, with the Storm King’s and Serosh’s realms, and Liurnia.
- There must come a time when Marika’s reign becomes great and prosperous and needs its own identity. Marika starts distancing herself from the previous age, trying to espouse more peaceful, more civilized ideals. This is also why Hoarah Loux needs to become Godfrey, it’s an oath not to fight to keep fighting, but to fight to end fighting.
- The reveal of the Erdtree’s mortality at the close of Godfrey’s reign would surely cause a widespread spiritual crisis (“those blissful days of blind belief are now long past”). Marika is determined to find a way to make it right again. She will succeed by transforming the Erdtree from a simple plant to something “perfect and eternal”, by removing the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring. But she can’t do that without first addressing an old prophecy:
- Radagon’s age sees the Erdtree becoming an object of worship above all. There’s peace enough to ponder the deeper mysteries of the universe. After a great catastrophe, the world recovers, trying to keep itself stable. To survive, the Erdtree had to enforce an ever more stringent and conceptual orthodoxy - now, that same orthodoxy has become the norm and it serves the new purpose of keeping the realm stable in a more intellectual landscape, with all the contradictions that entail from such a conceit. This is not unlike what happened in the wake of the Black Death to the Catholic Church, when its system of beliefs and practices finally crystallized in their more well-known and rigid form, as Jacques Le Goff posits.
- I wonder how much the sealing away of Destined Death accelerated the drying up of sap. Something that can’t die doesn’t need to reproduce, a theme abundantly present, not only in the game, but also in Martin’s “A Song of Ice and Fire”. There, the weirwoods don’t produce sap naturally and, most of all, seem not to produce seeds, because they’re basically undead trees. They’re already immortal and perfect, almost impossible to cut down. Why would such a creature answer to the common laws of reproduction, as dictated by decay, when it’s unaffected by it?
- I also wonder whether Gransax's attack contributed to the waning health of the tree, along with its grafted nature. I mean, the Tree Sentinels seem to have been deeply traumatised by the event, which means that Gransax at least attacked, if not outright damaged, the Tree itlsef, besides the Capital.
Thank you very much for reading! I really wish there could be a space to talk like human beings, instead of compressing all this stuff in such a manner. There are many things left unsaid and worth digging deeper into when discussing ideas on such a deep topic (the GMQ and the Serpent's betrayal and how they fit here etc...).
33:40 the Elden Ring was shattered after Godwyn's murder, therefore after the war against the ancient dragons and the banishment of Godfrey and his warriors. Furthermore Marika was imprisoned in the Erdtree after she destroyed the Elden Ring while Radagon desperately tried to repair it, so I really don't think that they were able to remove the rune of death, create fundamentalism, marry and have kids. You also placed the night of the black knives before the rune of death was removed from the elden ring and then sealed by Maliketh, but Ranni stole the fragment from Maliketh when it was already sealed away. Lastly, with the removal of destined death Erdtree burial was also created, and after death people returned to the Erdtree to be reincarnated, and we can see in game that right now, after the desctruction of the Elden Ring, this whole reincarnation system doesn't work anymore, so the rune of death to being removed after the shattering of the Elden Ring doesn't make sense.
Sorry but this timeline is full of nonsense :/
When our hole take on the storyis interpretating an connecting loose informations from a game, do you really think its ok to talk of nonesense if someone just interpretates it in another way?
@@leohirtsche8341 your mom gay
Babe wake up!! Tarnished Archeologists just dropped a new lore video!
I have to pause the video for a moment. The CHILLS when you mentionned the trellis and Radagon's Rune... (probably helped by Elden Beast ost lmao). I've known for a while that the world-building of Elden Ring is out of this realm, and that you'll always manage to decrypt it in the most facinating ways, but damn, I always find myself dumbfounded by your discoveries. I have no words. Thank you.
Arguably the best ER lore guy out there, my dude. Nicely done as usual. I admire your well-rounded learnedness and think you're usually spot on when illuminating the real-life historical and religious inspirations seen in the game, though (and I know, you specifically mentioned you wouldn't debate this in video) I've gotta disagree hard on the idea of Jesus' deity having been a concept developed following / separate from the accounts of the synoptic gospels.
Thanks for the gentle pushback, and hopefully you found other aspects to like in this video
What a brilliant lore analysis of an inspiring myth FromSoft created. Thank you.
I'm a bit confused as to where you place the shattering of the Elden Ring in the timeline, way before Godwyn's death. Unless you imply that there has been multiple shatterings of the Elden Ring? Is the burning of the Erdtree necessary linked to the shattering? The Staff of the Avatar description mentions that they arose "in the wake of the shattering", to protect the "withering" minor erdtrees, implying that those minor Erdtrees are already grown and old, and that quite some time has passed since the burning and scattering of the seeds.
the full description for the Staff of the Avatar says "The avatars, emerging in the wake of the Elden Ring's shattering, were determined to protect the withering Erdtree's offspring." Imo it feels like its referring to THE Erdtree as withering, not the Minor Erdtrees
@@idzidz833 That's... a very good point. Although the use of "withering" to refer to something that is burning is a little odd to me. Also, in addition to the minor Erdtrees, we also have small, phantom trees scattered accross the Lands Between.
What if, upon burning the first time, the Erdtree scattered real, physical seeds that became the minor Erdtrees, and upon burning a second time (during the shattering?) as a phantom Erdtree, it scattered phantom seeds that became the smaller phantom trees?
When the footage of all those old books was being played and they were being handled without gloves on I almost broke a tooth I was clenching my jaw so hard.
The timeline presented here is simply wrong. I do believe there was a first burning of the Erdtree, but TA is mistaken in tying that burning to the shattering, it is throwing off his placement of events terribly.
He states the erdtree worship period follows the shattering, but this is impossible. Godwyn's death and the Night of Black Knives instigated Marika's shattering of the Elden Ring, but Godwyn clearly was alive during the Ancient Dragon War, where lightening fortification(an Erdtree Worship incantation) was used.
Tying the shattering to the first burning is messing things up.
This has become one of the few channels that I immediately watch all uploads the moment I see them.
Last point to counter your argument, if the current Erdtree is a phantom why does it create ash when it burns?
Your content is simply amazing, it makes me want to keep jumping back in the game and stare at ruins all day.
Tier 1 lore hunter.
Some questions, in your opinion:
In botanical terms, what are the 'people' in the 'lands between' (LB)? Are they buds, flowers, leaves, branches, fruits, cuttings, shoots, ...?
Are Deathbirds and Deathrite Birds a seed dispenser species, and their sacrificial rites a means to travel from and to the LB?
Is there a webpage where we can see the timelines shown in the video? Please?
How many era's has the TA team classified at this point?
Does every Coppicing of the great tree come with a shattering of the Elden Ring?
What era would you say the black hexagonal columns are from? Were they even made by mortal hands?
Does she love me back?
Is Godwyn a potato?
A little detail to assist this order of events.
The Godskin "Noble Presence" is states: "Once a sign of the gods' wrath, this incantation became a trophy
of the Nobles' god hunt." So this incantation is based on somehing used by the onces that were huntend. Searching for a fitting thing, and one might find "Wrath of Gold" exteremly fitting. It states "This incantation was discovered when the Elden Ring was shattered, and it was feared as a sign of the Erdtree's wrath."
So according to this connection the order also seems to be: Shattering, Wrath od Gold, Godskin Aposty, Removal of Rune of Dead.
Great thanks to TA for giving this new order of events, it still makes me thinking more and more about the lore.
Interesting thoughts!
@@tarnishedarchaeologist After thinking about this hole thing again for hours and hours and really bitting my teeth into the lore I have to take back that conclussion. Sadly I don't have the time or skill to make such great videos 😐 Keep up your good work, I'm looking forward to see what you make of it.
Smartest and most interesting Soulsborne lore channel on UA-cam. I will comment on and like every video to help increase reach.
Another important piece of evicence to the massive golden phantom Erdtree being something only those who still see grace can see comes from Boc. When you meet him in the royal capital, he asks you if you saw the Erdtree and muses at the profound religious experience he had when he saw it himself. Now certainly it's quite the sight up close, but not more so than what you've been expecting from the massive horizon spanning cannopy.
But it's not until you enter the capital itself you can see the physical erdtree behind the illusory golden phantom.
I've wondered about that myself.
*(1/2)* Hold on, how can you claim the Erdtree is a phantom when your own selected video clip, the Age of Fracture ending (11:12), shows patches of brown bark running up and down the entire tree? Even some branches have brown segments! Fracture shows that a whole tree is still standing, as reinforced by the *view within the Erdtree* -- brown bark in all directions and rising upward. The Frenzied Flame ending proves the tree's round mass is real, rather than a sliver in the front, too. The rest of the tree is merely gone because a colossal pillar of universe-destroying fire just shot through it and is igniting the sky itself.
Furthermore, your assertion from 8:01 to 8:09, "So evidently, the catastrophe that brought about the end of the Age of Plenty was indeed contemporaneous with the shattering of the Elden Ring," *directly contradicts the game's timeline and your own* . How could the Age of Plenty, which you say ended shortly into Godfrey's reign, have concluded *long after* Godfrey ceased being Elden Lord and years into *Radagon's* reign?
You also posit at 17:11 that the Age of Plenty ended close to the Night of the Black Knives, but Rogier's dialogue quickly contradicts itself. Within five sentences, and within the same dialogue chunk, Rogier goes from saying that the killings "happened during the Golden Age of the Erdtree, long before the shattering of the Elden Ring," to "it became the catalyst. Soon, the Elden Ring was smashed, and thus sprang forth the war known as the Shattering." How can the Night of the Black Knives be both *long before* the shattering of the Elden Ring and said breaking of the ring was *soon after* the killings in question?
Even more egregious is that you posit the Night of the Black Knives happened in this Age of Plenty, but then say the round, "formless" Erdtree sigil was created afterward by citing Golden Lightning Fortification's use in the ancient dragon war as proof. When the ancient dragon war took place, Godwyn the Golden was still alive! Godwyn defeated Fortissax in the conflict and the two became friends, hence why Fortissax tried to save Godwyn from the Death Blight later on. How could the "phantom Erdtree" era and its sigil begin after Godwyn's death when Godwyn was alive for the very wars you're trying to use as proof?
Barrier of Gold doesn't help your case either, since Miriel's dialogue confirms that the Liurnian Wars happened in Godfrey's era. Miriel tells us that Radagon was already married to Rennala, an event that happened after the Liurnian Wars, by the time Godfrey lost Grace and Marika hounded him out of the Lands Between. It was only after Godfrey's banishment that Marika decided that Radagon should be the next Elden Lord, and Radagon abandoning Rennala drove her insane. Considering that Ranni was born to and grew up raised by the sane Rennala, this means that not only did the Liurnian Wars happen in Godfrey's reign, but Radagon's own children were born and likely adults by the time Godfrey's era ended! The round Erdtree sigil had to have existed in Godfrey's reign.
By the way, the Erdtree Seal is "formless" because it literally has no weight at all. It's not representative of a formless Erdtree, the description is informing people that the seal is some kind of energy tool itself, a la the Frenzied Flame Seal, the Dragon Communion Seal, and the Cipher Pata. In fact, the Erdtree, Golden Order, Frenzied Flame, and Dragon Communion Seals, along with the Cipher Pata, all specifically use the term formless. We have no reason to believe this is a coincidence for the Erdtree Seal or a double meaning, and as such the Erdtree itself was not formless in the era of the Erdtree Seal's creation.
Also, you keep mentioning a first burning of the Erdtree, yet you neglect to mention what would even do it -- Bernahl's Finger Maiden burning at the Forge of the Fire Giants, as told by the shared item description for his (torso) armor, gauntlets, and greaves:
"Beasts are drawn to champions, and to lords. And this armor befits a champion worthy of becoming a lord. And that is what Bernahl was.
Until his maiden threw herself into the fire."
Bernahl can access Farum Azula, indicating that he indeed went through all the steps that the player character does with Melina, who, to paraphrase her words, can accomplish what a Finger Maiden does. This event is crucial for the timeline, as Bernahl's maiden can only burn at the Forge after the Elden Ring was shattered, the Shattering war began between the demi-gods, and the Tarnished were called back to the Lands Between. The first burning of the Erdtree has to have been one of the last events in the entire timeline, not in Godfrey's reign, let alone with Leyndell still covered in ash through Radagon's reign.
Furthermore, you keep saying the Age of Plenty would have ended from the Erdtree burning, but why not apply Occam's Razor and consider that the Erdtree, like any other tree, has cycling periods of blooming and resting? Trees are often seasonal, and even evergreens stagger when they bloom and produce fruit. It seems far more likely that Leyndell took the Erdtree's bounty for granted and became resentful when they learned the tree has its own neutral, resting state. Also, why not address Leyndell's innate hypocrisy with defining the "eternal"? Leyndell called the Erdtree eternal and said it thus couldn't have children, but Marika herself is distinctly titled "Queen Marika the Eternal" yet has been having kids all throughout her reign without being criticized or doubted because of it.
Additionally, courtesy of Melina reciting echoes of Marika, it seems that Marika declared the beginning of Golden Order Fundamentalism at the Minor Erdtree Church of Altus Plateau. This church notably features three Erdtree saplings, two of which are relatively thin and a third that's about 2-3 times the height and distinctly wider. This third tree even seems to be the main object of worship at the church, taking the place of a Marika or Radagon statue. As such, the Erdtree may have had an initial wave of seeds before the Elden Ring shattered.
Also, how do Blessing's Boon, Blessing of the Erdtree, and Erdtree Heal, leafy tree sigil incantations, derive their power from a graftee Crucible when they are as golden as the later Erdtree incantations? These flourishing incantations don't use the fainter gold with a tinge of white light that the Crucible Knight incantations do, they use this "Crucible" sigil but with a bright, solid gold.
In fact, there are more incantations and Ashes of War of the prospering Erdtree being strongly gold than there are of it being faintly gold: Golden Land, the technique done by the Erdtree Avatars and inherent to the Erdtree branch known as the Great Club; Holy Ground; Golden Temperment; the three incantations mentioned above; and even Morgott and Melina's individual incantations. Furthermore, Melina's healing tree is reminiscent of the Warming Stone's item description:
"It's said that the Erdtree was once as warm as the gentle sun, and would gradually heal all who bathed in its rays."
This indicates that the Age of Plenty Erdtree produced light. This very notion means that the Erdtree producing light is normal with the Erdtree being in a non-phantom state. By considering this detail alongside the other evidence, we have no reason to believe that the Erdtree is in a phantom state.
Then there's Elden Stars. This incantation, using the leafy tree but as a bright, solid gold, tells of a time when life seems to have begun on the planet. The Elden Beast's boss arena implies that Erdtrees are spread throughout the galaxy, and Hyetta tells us that the Greater Will created life itself. Adding the item description, arena visual, and Hyetta's dialogue together, it appears that the Greater Will creates life by sending Erdtrees to planets, and thus the Erdtree would predate any other possible plant. The Erdtree itself is thus the Crucible in its entirety, and the "greattree" of the Root Resin. There was no grafting, just normal growing by a single plant. The Minor Erdtree Church even shows Erdtrees that have apparently only just begun glowing, with the bark and the light resembling the color of the Crucible Knight incantations.
(I'm responding to my first comment just so I can keep both of them linked together for anyone who wants to read them. UA-cam's floating comments will otherwise make it a pain to find the second post.)
*(2/2)* Where does this tangent of Goldmask possibly disliking free will come from, anyway? The gods of the Lands Between are repeatedly fickle in the sense of Greek gods, being irresponsible, selfish jerks who don't actually have any validity of a deeper universal understanding and basis. Marika in particular breaks the rules of the society she founded to be both god and Elden Lord, appearing foolish for not just changing the laws normally, appearing greedy in general, and needlessly hurting people in the process.
Radagon might also be a faux Renaissance Man, seeing as how he appears to ditch all the sorceries he learned in Liurnia once he becomes Elden Lord. Radagon doesn't seem to use any Fundamentalist incantations in his boss fight, and he certainly doesn't use any spells. Radagon also turned the Moonlight Greatsword Rennala gave him into a purely incantation sword, then perhaps even discarded it. The incantation with Radagon's name in it only uses his name to mark him as the recipient of a present that Miquella created.
Heck, perhaps the only case of Radagon still using anything he learned in Liurnia is his own symbol -- the same sigil appears on Raya Lucaria's gates, albeit the gates are also structured like that. Marika criticizes Radagon as a leal hound of the Golden Order too, so in that regard you have words from Radagon himself suggesting he's loyal to the Golden Order instead of the Elden Ring.
As to the comment about Leyndell having vines instead of roots, any roots may have temporarily moved upward upon pressing against a building while growing. Additionally, Sekiro Dubi has an interesting video where the golden sections of the Erdtree seem to build themselves with a vine-like pattern. Everything else still suggests the gold and the brown are both parts of the same tree, without any grafting, symbiosis, or parasitism, but the vine-like details on the highest branches are still interesting. It should also be noted that the description when investigating the seal, along with every character's dialogue, says that the thorns are part of the Erdtree, not some separate plant or force.
You've made very good work regarding Elden Ring's setting, story, and lore in past videos, but this video is illogical, making little to no sense with all three of those things and even itself. Please consider revising this video -- there are interesting ideas, but they're severely undermined by being attached to things we know are not true.
god damn go off
As I pour over Elden Ring lore, and try to piece together the grander story, sometimes I think the entire point is a much deeper philosophy that is a mirror of real life. I'll find myself looking at characters like Miquella and while wondering what their motives might be, I'll find myself looking at my own tendencies towards nihilism or questions of free will or passions, faiths, and axioms. I think it's a beautiful alchemic work.
Christ literally named himself as God in the gospels
Where?
@@Prodigi50 John 8:58 for starters. He said it all the time. He is the being who causeth to be. Or in other words, the great "I AM".
Yup. Literally every single gospel. From calling himself and being called Lord, to being worshipped, to performing miracles, to laying down and taking his life back up on His own authority, from claiming to be one with the Father, from claiming to be equal to the Father, to claiming to be eternal, to paying for all of sin (something only possible for one who is 1) a suitable substitute (being human) and 2) a infinitely valuable substitute (being God). The list goes on and on. No one can honestly claim that the gospels themselves don’t claim the deity of Christ. However, many scholars would attempt to get around this by saying that the gospels were written much later and that’s when these references were put in. However, both internal and external evidence strongly refutes this.
Yes. In several passages.
Not in the original scriptures, hope
Such an eye opening video. You and your team do amazing work! Thank you guys for constantly keeping people into this great game.
The timeline you're proposing is pretty wrong, tho
First, it is true the Golden Order is been founded with the removal of the Rune of Death, but we know this occurred before the Shattering: the proof lies in the events of the Night of the Black Knives, which Rogier defines as the catalyst that leaded to Marika breaking the ring.
Also, the assassins stole a fragment of rune from Maliketh for kill Godwyn, and Maliketh kept the Death sealed within his sword. This stealing couldn't have occurred, if the Rune of Death wasn't already been sealed in that moment, therefore the Golden Order started way before the Shattering, and not after.
Also, I see you placed the Shattering of the Elden Ring before the Liurnian Wars, but this would imply that Marika/Radagon was already been sealed inside the Erdtree. And we know this can't be, because Radagon was at Liurnia at times and Marika was still active and ruling, as we see when she banished Godfrey and co from the Lands Between. And also, Radagon can't actually move of his own, if Marika is sealed: after all, we see in the trailer that, when she breaks the rings, Radagon breaks too. He wouldn't have been capable of moving outside, after that.
Also, I'm not against the idea of the Erdtree being burned already, but if it's occurred a long time ago, why does Leyndell still keep the piles of ashes around the streets and the roof even nowadays?
I love how you look at things and thing about things and then tell us what you think
*think, damnit
Read Mark 14:62, John 18:5-6, John 8:24 , John 8:28, and John 8:58 to have your introduction segment answered :)
Man, this video just made me realize that the "stumpy" look of the Erdtree Avatars is because they are the literal projected avatars of the _physical_ stumpy tree.
A trellis! My, I didn't even know that was a word!
Are you telling me you haven't been learning everything there is to know about horticulture in between Tarnished Archaeologist videos in order to stay abreast of the topic of imaginary trees in fantasy worlds?
For shame.
@@rainbowkrampus tis true fml