Hi Puffin! Thanks for checking out the playtest module. During its run, the players really helped us out by stress-testing our systems and providing enough feedback to improve the final release of Pathfinder Second Edition. If you'd like, we'd love to send you a PF2E Adventure Path to try out. I'm sure your entire party won't die as horribly this time ;)
Thanks! Yeah, the group had a TON of FUN playing the playtest material. We got two DMs running Pathfinder 2 material right now. I'm going to be starting up my own Pathfinder 2E Campaign soon. I appreciate the offer for the Adventure Path, but I'm already getting all the adventure paths myself. Keeping updated with your work!
As a cynical dm to be i think you are still planning on making the players die horribly just not as horribly, i know of a person that is called the dm of doom wacksteven his dice rolls are freakishly high one of the many dm of the table story channel. So with dm like that players don't need any help dying.😉
A few days later, another group of adventurers arrive at the ruined church, beaten and battered from the previous battle that took place. Within the rubble, they hear a faint whimpering and unearth a broken sword muttering to itself: "I... I tried... I tried to warn them, but they... they didn't listen... please, I warned them"
The TPK module is an assault by the evil mastermind Otty Otterton. The mages are lead by Abserd in summoning forth the ultimate being to save the day: Chadwick Strongpants.
as someone who plays pathfinder and knows what all those things do holy shit that's the most ridiculous enemy list I've ever seen, and I played Wrath of the Righteous where you have to fight the entire Abyss
@@apathetk The ritual is being performed by your main party story PCs from the first adventure in the book. "The 'Esoteric Order heroes' whom there PCs escort and protect in this chapter are none other than those the players created for 'The Lost Star'."
there's something great about a TPK module: create throw away disgustingly min-max'd characters; have it ran as a TTG, not a TTRPG; see who survives the longest.
Yeah! My brother ran a Tower Defense One-Shot for our group. Full TPK. The lore was, we (as ourselves not our characters ) woke up in a town inside our character's body. The town was beeing attacked by fiends and the local king's best champions (our characters) all died in battle, Their souls were destroyed so the king just pulled randomly souls from some other plane and shoved it into their bodies.
"have it ran as a TTG, not a TTRPG" I don't know, I'd use it as a chance to go full Jojo. Have the party be introduced by posing while the Pillar Men theme blasts in the background, add a lot of monologues and badass one liners and there you have it!
Honestly, if you assured me that my character wouldn't survive soon after creation, the only difference is I'd get silly with the naming with names like "Redd Shirt" or "Kanon Fodder"
Another great name-creation device is Google Translate. Just use random words in random languages as character names, so it sounds cool, but your character is actually named "dead guy" or something.
for that TPK module that ben talked about honestly id let them have like 3 sets of characters depending on lethality. After a few rounds they can choose to swap out to give others a rest of a few hit points or spell slots. It sounds like it could be a fun resource management challenge as both the DM and the players.
"After that, the horde arrives!" Stop, stop! They're already dead! Seriously, it's like whoever wrote the TPK module aspired to be a Mythbuster: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing!
Mythic Busters and Dungeons: the Path of the Dragoning. Mythbusters do tabletop and trading card game high fantasy RPGs to finally answer the age old question: Is Ancalagon the Black the Most Powerful overpowered encounter in All Of The Things? JRR Tolkien as DM: "first of all, all trees should be living immortal talking ancient elephant memoried speeches who were there when the first Elves were born and remember Galadriel's grandfather's favorite way to sing I Am the Very Model of a Nerdy Individual which makes an entire verse for each everything in the history of the created universe. They remember every single campfire in the history of the world and they all made them mad. SECOND the biggest Dragon in the history of I Made It Up has two different wings each the size of the entire Ural Mountain range. Back when the Urals were young and higher than the Himalayans by a lot. Ok now the heroes are One Boi in a Boat with a Shiny Rock. It is a VERY shiny rock.
The boat flies. Lookits cwute wifdle wingies. We named it FloatyMcBoatBoat in High Elvish. Which in the Common Tongue is rendered "Vingilot" for "lots of wings".
Generally in my pickup games, it's the "lol so random" player who decides to make the entire session a war on birdkind. Which can be fun, as long as it's not *every* session. :P
@@Earthstar_Review Hah it was kind of an interesting concept. She was a paladin of... Ugliness somehow? So she hated beautiful creatures and spent her spare time murdering birds but she was pretty down for exploring the creepy abandoned mansion we were there to investigate, because that was proper ugly in her estimation. I mean, it still wasn't great - her first instinct on seeing the nice windows the mansion had was to throw her dead birds at them to try and break them (DM: "yeah, no, that's not going to do anything") but I did enjoy the idea of a half orc paladin beating beautiful people with a massive greatclub for being too attractive, haha.
So, as the author of this particular part of the adventure, I have to say, it may seem sadistic, but it gave us a great deal of feedback about perceived versus actual break points in the system. Getting good feedback on that thought, required the characters to go in blind. You build and play a character differently if you know they are being set up to die. Glad to hear the group had a good time with much of the module though. That sea serpent TPK'd a number of parties according to our feedback... even if it wasn't the purple worm.
I mean, as a DM who's dabbled into rules, I get that. It's a module meant for testing. It's not fully meant to tell a story, it's primarily meant to stress the system. Some people might complain about that, but they need to understand it isn't a traditional module.
So did you get this feedback before or after the DM got out of hospital? I've played with many groups and not one of them would have stood for this jackassery. Fuck you and fuck your game.
I get and understand that, but making characters, especially if they are mid-high level, can be a chore. Putting in all that work just for them to be put into a no-win scenario is...kinda messed up. It then makes the players feel like they've had their time wasted. Nobody likes having their time wasted.
Likewise, I was hoping that the final enemy the party had to face would be Abserd. "Hello! I am the final bad guy who is going to be doing the killing of you!"
Honestly, if I was warned beforehand so I can make a character I can get rid off, I would definitely be up for a suicide mission game just to see and epic fight and some powerful monsters.
I've run meat grinder games of different systems. Generally, you're only going to attract a *certain* type of player, but if everyone is down, it can be loads of fun. If you have a friend who loves Warhammer and Dark Souls, they're probably going to like a session with absurd difficulty and lots of killing.
1:35 "Each action is a 4 hour period of the day. So 2 of the actions we'll probably have to spend sleeping." Getting 8 hours of sleep? Space dragons and beholders I can believe, but that shit is too unrealistic.
@@quincyking010 Also someone has to cook and clean, Casters need to Prep spells, Martial Classes have to Practice, Probably need need to replenish ammo or potions too.
@@Pablo360able Depends on the edition, I believe, for the specifics. It's usually something like an 8 hour rest, of which some amount (I think it's 6 hours in 5e) must be sleep and the rest can only be non strenuous activity (nothing more than relaxation/flavor activities pretty much).
Indeed, I can scarcely get that much in this reality, in a D&D universe, let alone a pathfinder version, I'll be too occupied by all the beholders and apparently banshees to get any decent rest!
When my group got to this part of the play test, we were told during character creation to make the most terrible, unlovable, and generally unmissable characters we could. And when we all died terrible gruesome and for one of us very quick deaths, we all knew why.
I've played through the entire playtest. The TPK module was actually a lot of fun even though there is no chance you can beat it. I played an Abjuration wizard because we were warned ahead of time that we would be defending something. Wizards were very underpowered at that point in the beta but it was still a lot of fun.
@@DrPluton i cant speak for late game, but 1-4 I feel a bit more useful/ strong and less squishy. In my age of ashes game, a lot of our damage comes from sorcerer and druid with just cantrips. What abouthem seemed weak if you dont mind me asking?
@@feritperliare2890 hmm that is unfortunate. I feel its likely due to all the players who complain about casters in 3.5 and pf1. Not fact, but just an observation.
Reminds me of D&D's "Apocalypse Stone" module. You fight several beholders and even a damned terrasque. Also the players get tricked into eating all of their loved ones in an evil bread made of souls.
Suicide type missions are great for getting those friends who would rather play war games, and you're trying to convince them that pathfinder is a lot more focused on combat than d&d.
Kereea I think that’s the reason behind a play test, they wanted the push to system to extreme situations and see what would happen. This isn’t meant for new players it’s meant for experienced ones.
From what ive been listening to, 4E is really good at making you have to have tactical combat. Critical Hit. Rodrigo really hammers his players with strong enemies, and doesnt pull punches.
in our group, we actually managed to survive the TPK Module, with the only Death being my Druids Panther and a Stubborn Goblin who wanted me to be responsible for his death, because i was slowed and couldn't get to him 1 round sooner. So he didn't use his Hero Point(at this time, it allowed you to essentially just not bother with being unconscious)
If I ran a TPK module, the conversation would go something like this: ME: Hey guys, I have a game ready. PLAYERS: Oh, so just running another game then? ME: It's a TPK module! PLAYERS: Oh, so just running another game then?
I had to actually be extremely generous to my players to prevent a tpk. They almost died to a fucking goblin and a wolf. Later they had to fight a gargoyle and an animated statue. I had forgot it had acidic blood till i looked at the players, then at my notes. Coerced the bard to cast sleep, and bullshit that since animated statue was living magic, sending it asleep technically kills it, then proceeded to be extremely kind with what happened with the gargoyle. They were 2 hp on average away from death.
That reminds me of that time when my DM started throwing hordes of mindflayers, dragons and purple worms at my like, 8th level party just to try and challenge us. Everyone was expecting a TPK each session, but we never lost a single party member.
Why are all your monsters so freaking adorable? Seeing the silly-cute drawings you come up with for all the stories is half the reason I love your channel so much (the other half being your mastercraft of telling a whole engaging story in what is often only about 10 minutes)
Admittedly, I found out that in either D&D or Pathfinder, increasing damage and not HP or AC is a good way to increase threat without lengthening the fight. I learned that from DCC
Instead of a "TPK" game, just advertise it as a "Hold The Line" type deal. Be up front with "In this, your characters will die. Your goal is to survive as long as possible." Design around the idea.
The big mistake here is the recommendation to blindside your friends with this. Talk with your group. If you want them to play non min-maxed characters, then have that dialogue with them, but also be honest about it being a survival game and not a standard adventure. Respect your friends and don't change expectations without first communicating.
This is was playtest module, it wasn't meant to entertain, it was meant to beta test a product. So yes, if I was trying to entertain my friends, I'd certainly tell them. But if I was trying to test the product, like Paizo wanted, I'd run it how they wanted.
@@SariusxX they needed to know when a party would wipe out to know what they needed to balance, making this useful for testing, that's why the module was invented for the player's to be unaware coming in, people would act differently if they knew it was a TPK machine, and in any situation where a TPK would happen the player's certainly wouldn't expect a TPK
I GMed the playtest for my group and we did every adventure. We actually had a ton of fun with the TPK module. They made it to the demilich before dying. The thing none of us loved was the constant changing of characters.
The important thing to remember here is "playtest". They want people to test every aspect they can think of to try and improve the system. Yes, if this was an effort to out Tomb Tomb being sold as an official module, then it would be a terrible thing to buy and run for any but the most sadistic, antagonistic GM. It isn't though. It is a request by the developers for people to destruct test character design principles and combat survivability. The alpha Delta Green playtest was an adventure that pretty much went intro, ambush, roll dice to get to final destination, monstrous horror SAN check, epic ambush, fade to black, because they wanted to test certain elements of the system. None of my players cared because it was a playtest (also you know what you signed up for playing DG...). That was what the developers needed - this module even says this in the intro. Note: I am not saying your players were bad for not playing it; or that they spoilt things for the developers; or that they should have sucked it up or anything similar. It is a tricky balance between needing a "fair" test and player engagement. Purpose built min-max machines don't test "real" characters and some people will try to Kirk the scenario if they know. That is probably a group trust thing, knowing how far you can push them in the name of unpaid playtesting. You don't get a solid test if everyone has checked out playing non-stop pointless combat. There is also a good question as to how much the developers need this information and whether this is the best way to get it. However, for anyone watching thinking this is troll design or poor module construction, it isn't exactly (bar questions about informed choice). It does the job they want it to do. Playtests aren't necessarily meant to reflect a "real" game, they are a series of tests of the system. Some tests are more fun than others and some tests appear to have been designed by Aperture Science.
@@jonasfree2 ...touche. That is a good point though. I have no doubt they would also want to know how easy it is to break the system over your knee with a careful selection of feats, attributes etc. The older Pathfinder and DnD editions are, after all, justly notorious for such things (given the insane number of supplements and the general mindset of a reasonable number of players). Just speaking for myself, I deliberately made a highly specialised wolfpack-slayer using Unearthed Arcana (later in Xanathar...) for 5e Curse of Strahd because pack attack was tearing through our group - including his predecessor. I think the difference here is not "Can people overdesign an otherwise lopsided character who can survive this ridiculous scenario but not be able to function in general play?" but "How long can "normal" characters survive so we can dial in lethality and survival traits?". If a regular group wandered in here, what would happen? There are a fair number of min-maxers in "normal" play, but even those would not be purpose-built TPK-scenario characters, but rather examples of regular play from one type of player. "How long can those PCs survive?" is a valid question for a playtest; "Can people create a survivor for this non-representative, terrible grind, murder box given enough time and resources?" is not... If this were an insane con game though, with a survival leaderboard, that would be pretty cool.
@@mikedrew604 I think 'literally everything else' would be a better means of judging what a normal character's survivability is, and the TPK gauntlet a good place to throw broken builds at. Some of those builds might be a bit focused, but if anything it'll underestimate because rarely will a character be stuck in constant combat.
@@basedeltazero714 I do see your point, however I still recognise the developers' purpose in creating this. I have used survivability as a short hand, but I think there is more to it than that. This scenario tests damage output; combat potential of different class combinations; how effective particular spells are; how people use spell slots; how relevant in-combat healing is; how combat skills work; and a wide variety of other elements, all under the umbrella of how much players can ultimately face before TPK. Playtest scenarios are not necessarily meant to be balanced, or reflections of good game design, or even fun, they are meant to give the developers feedback on aspects of their game. If this means one entire adventure is a series of wilderness survival tests, then so be it. These adventures seem more like a traditional campaign - and thus more like regular gameplay - but even so, they were built to ensure individual aspects of the system were guaranteed to be tested - and in this case destruct tested. Robin D. Laws holds that players don't want an easy time. They want to beat the final encounter, yes, but they want to do it on their last hit points, spell slots exhausted. They want an epic fight, the feeling that everything could go wrong at any minute, and a final, dramatic victory. I'd agree, the most exciting fight scenes we have had across systems were when we came closest to defeat before winning. As part of that, many encounters are geared to grind down resources to help create tension in the final encounter. The questions in DnD-style games seems to be "Can we risk one more encounter or do we rest?", where in-game time itself is a resource. The playtest notes describe the same mindset: the idea that "the players have to feel that their characters are in danger" so that the game "convey[s] drama and a sens [sic] of urgency". I would suggest that most "real" scenarios are created with two goals which can feel at odds with each other: 1) Most groups will want to complete the adventure - or at least make it to the final boss before being defeated; 2) Most groups will want a sense of challenge in order to get a sense of accomplishment. Dialling this in must be incredibly difficult, and this scenario has presumably been created to help work out how far the average character can go. This will hopefully help scenario design balance (and presumably whatever the equivalent of Threat/Encounter/Challenge Rating is) and judge the effectiveness of class powers, spells etc. Again, people don't have to like this or think it good scenario design, but for it to work as a test of "regular" PCs, people need to play it with "regular" PCs.
@@sagecolvard9644 But the 1st edition had one. It must be doable to port it to 2E. Still, it's weird they were allowed to make Tarrasques for the 1st edition but not for the second one.
@@Klaital1 The Tarrasque is actually a monster from old French folklore, which is why Pathfinder 1e was allowed to have one. Paizo just decided not to have one for 2e.
Important note: The TPK mission was actually protecting the MAIN PCs for the overarching campaign. So I imagine that would help the party's motivation a bit since their original group was the ones downstairs performing the ritual. [And while a surprise TPK mission is a dick move from a GM side - as a system test it makes sense since the devs are trying to test the system's lethality against normal PCs, not PCs specifically made with the intent of a combat meatgrinder.] That said, my group was a bit behind schedule, so we ended up skipping several of the side sections (including that one) in order to finish the main playtest on time. Which was probably a good choice overall, since the final boss fight ended up being a great battle that pushed my group to the brink and had several satisfying conclusions to character arcs as a result. Not to mention it finally used up the group's get-out-of-death-free buff they got in session 1 since the playtest version of hero points actually made it REALLY difficult for anyone to stay down in a fight, let alone actually die.
According to the data Paizo collected, around 2% of tables survived. As a GM who ran it I am blown away anyone made it as it is indeed extremely difficult. I imagine the dice rolled heavily in their favor.
@@Jeremiah90526 I'm a 42 con, Vow of Poverty Forsaker, can I keep ruining your mood-setting now? ( I love this build as a meme because you can reach Spell Resistance 32+ your hd if you play a Bariaur(LA+1) while also being generally immortal but you can't do anything else or even hold magic items hahaha. You're literally a useless, immortal spectator).
@@dddmemaybe Well, would you look at that, a Terrasque just fell out of the Earth to your left, it is going to use its bite attack on you. That is a 38 to hit (5e, it would be a 56 in PF 2e), what is your AC (yeah, it hit, don't bs, and take 31 points of piercing damage)? As the attack hit, it will swallow, causing 16d6 acid damage at the start of its next turn. Best of luck getting out of its stomach (next turn it succeeds its saving throw if you manage to get 60 HP of damage in a single turn somehow, but fails the next one if you do it again). I have had meme players that I have done this shit to so they would stop trying to break the game. Always said afterwards "and then you wake up, drenched in sweat. You notice new scars of what looks like tooth marks on your body, you are short x HP, have a point of exhaustion, and are frightened for the next day."
When I ran Doomsday Dawn playtest my players figured out part 5 was a TPK test early on, so they weren't too upset when they got wrecked. They were at the end of their resources when they just barely defeated the demilich, with two of the four characters dying. The last two realized the situation was unwinnable and teleported away. Not very brave, sure, but when I showed them my shemhazian miniature they were glad they didn't try to continue. Not that they would have made it to the final opponentsince there were more opponents before them. They were just glad that two of them made it past the demilich, which is where Paizo reported most tables failed, according to the data they collected. Still, we all had fun and are currently playing through the second edition Age of Ashes adventure path.
A GM I knew had a TPK story in one of his games, and it was pretty fun, mainly 'cuz we all knew it was a TPK from the start and it was a way to introduce our actual characters. Our GM made the characters we needed to play, so there was no bad tastes of losing a character we worked hard on.
I started out as a viewer who didn't play D&D. I went out and bought the Stranger Things D&D campaign. Just completed it not even 24 hours ago. The DM murdered me twice. Very rude of him.
I've never played D&D or any kind of tabletop role-play game. But your videos are so awesome that I can't help but watch them. Also I do really appreciate the whole make believe imagination creativity that goes into table tops. Keep up with the videos huge fan
Div, the old D&D games (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Planescape: Torment, etc) and Pathfinder: Kingmaker. All are pretty good video game conversions of classic tabletop RPGs.
Pathfinder has PC game：pathfinder kingmaker. It is real time combat with pause (like baldur’s gate 1 and 2) but it is awesome. The second game is also under develop now. The game is a bit tough for new player as it needs player has knowledge of the rule but very fun to play.
@@michaelfoye1135 I've been looking for official groups, but there are none around and my friends are horribly disinterested :( Edit: There are very few DnD groups in Germany
I think, as a player, it would be fun to have a high-level slugfest campaign (as in, a oneshot) where the entire purpose is just: Survive for as long as you possibly can.
@@JoshSweetvale Yes... That would be the exact reason why I made that comment... Because I would like to try something like that. Because this video talks about it.
I absolutely love your videos! I haven't been able to play table-top RPGs for a few years now, but your videos always bring back very fond memories for me. Thank you puffin!
"Joker": I guess that's how we-- DM: One more pun out of you and I'm calling Uncle Phil. "Joker": ….roc and roll! Dm: ... A few seconds later: "Joker": *lets out a Jazz's yell*
making a character to die is cool with me, i would appreciate knowing that the module is very hard of course, i mean, i dont need to know that you are going to 100% kill my character, but i would like to know that i should not think a very elaborate backstory for him or her until after the session.
What if the pun is only obvious in hindsight? Like the time I *literally* railroaded my players, by placing them on a train and having plot take place at the various stops.
2) Never trust NPC party members EVAR especially the innocent ones just in case they stab you in the back because no one is THAT innocent. PS kidnap the non Party member NPCs they are more useful.
Thanks for the concern Ben! Its not that i dont play DnD ,its just hard to find people with same interests in my country ,your stories always make my day especially the Wallace arc thats the best!
On the subject of walking through feces, just last week, while playing Changeling, my party and I were chasing a bird with a magic artifact through a sewer. One of the party got the bird to drop the artifact, right into the sewage. So I, having the ability to change into a seal, had to swim down and get it.
I told my players this was essentially a TPK module when I was running the playtest, and they all decided not to do it. But I do agree, the players need to know beforehand. I think Paizo's goal was to avoid players completely min-maxing their characters in preparation of this fight, but ya know.... shit happens....
My group has recently transitioned into PF2E and are having an absolute blast with it. We are running a homebrew that includes the following plot hooks: 1) Ancient dead dragon being resurrected by a cult of kobalds. 2) Dwarven prince who is trying to single handedly retake his fallen kingdom using a legendary artifact weapon. 3) A druid searching for a reason why his watering hole is suddenly spewing blood and is also being chased by a Windego. 4) A traveling circus somehow gets wrapped up in all these events. Most of the players are from the circus and I'm the druid, we've reached lvl 2 so far and are about 10 sessions in. I love how much more deadly traps are in 2E. I personally feel that is the best change they made to the game as traps always felt like a joke in PF.
@@ssj3icecap It is the new Adventure Path that is currently being released, it's about the party being members of a circus and they even makes shows and can recruit more people to the crew.
Went to rewatch this vid and finally give it a like. Believe it or not, Ben, just you explaining monsters adding their levels to their attacks cleared up confusion that I, for some reason, kept having with Starfinder. I never quite understood the "foe adds level to attack rolls" bit, but now I do. To keep a challenge in the game. Thanks dude.
We used to run TPK adventures on halloween as a one shot. It was usually the "winner" was the last one standing. Everybody in the party eventually died, but it was fun, because it was a "see how far you can get" kind of situation.
The Heroes of Undarin reminds me of the zombie hoard modes in FPS's. I could see some groups of people playing through it with some kind of scoring system attached to see who gets the best score.
That module actually seems like it would be pretty great if the enemies gave loot, and the players had time to prepare against the enemies without actually knowing that they would be facing.
Not really, most of the Tomb of Annihilation's TPK potential came from traps, not endless hoards of monsters, to the point that if you knew what you were doing, you could pretty easily get a party through the entire dungeon. For this module, even the munchkiniest group of players would struggle to make it anywhere near the end.
LOVE the pathfinder material Puffin! It's currently my favorite ttrpg and the one that I personally GM. I personally find that that tightrope of power level is very fine in all the published material now. Great fodder for some near-death slapstick antics!
I actually enjoyed playing this module. While I had created a character with some roleplay depth that never got used in this combat-only module, I knew not to get attached to her because it was the only module she'd be in. She was a monk...and man did I enjoy testing out how monks can interact with that environment in combat! Still really enjoy playing a monk in the final version of p2e, even though its changed a bit, and find it works best if you have a fighter to flank with on the team!
0:49 I mean, I can think of worse ways to start out a game. As an immature person with the sense of humor of a 7 year old, I’d be dying at the table from laughter.
That TPK module sounds like the start of a groundhog day scenario where the character(s) are stuck in the time loop until they can survive the entire encounter. Would be an interesting scenario to customize.
It's really fun to run as a GM, but as a player it can be pretty fun. I got my group of players to agree to it by using standard premade characters and framed it as a "gauntlet-styled meat grinder". They were into it for that.
I really want to teach my girls how to play DnD or pathfinder. They would love it and your stories always make me think of the crazy situations they'd get into.
A tarrasque in pathfinder is literally unkillable. It's a unique monster created by one of the gods in the setting and is way, WAY over their level for this module. It's over level 20 if I remember correctly, and they're only level 12. They wouldn't even be able to hit it. This module, while hard, was supposed to see how long they lasted. From what I found out, every party that attempted this died at the demilich encounter, so about 2/3s of the way through. By that point though, it was a war of attrition. They probably could've taken the demilich if they were fresh, but they weren't. That's useful data, a random Tarrasque is not haha XD
If I were told ahead of time it was a TPK Module I think it'd be kinda fun to try out. It's not often you get to go into a fight saying "I'm gonna lose this but I wanna see how far I can get".
With a crossbowman, a Paladin with a holy avenger, and a couple of Good clerics, pleny of holy water, and a well stocked mage, that module doesn't have to be a tpk. Especially if they use the rubble to make fortifications around the stairs down. Sure its basically a really weird re-enactment of the Alamo, but a good defensive position, and crossbow fired holy water vials, all those undead are just mobbing a kill zone. If the party can avoid becoming dominated, they aught to be able to pull it off. If they have time to prepare the defenses, they might even be able to fire blindly at the sherazain through arrow slits and murder holes without meeting its gaze. A mage eye can give an early warning, as can a few magic mouth spells, albeit without the recon benefits. As for cloudkill, its not terribly effective against high level characters, but if he escorted npcs are vulnerable you can set a gust of wind to a steady breeze throughout the entire encounter, sending all incoming unpleasant odors out of the fortified area as well.
Why on Earth would a Banshee be more powerful than a Lich? A Banshee is just a particular kind of ghost but a Lich is an exceptionally powerful wizard who made itself undead to become immortal.
The Pathfinder 2e lich, as presented in the Bestiary, is supposed to represent a wizard who lichified themselves shortly after getting strong enough to do so. Not all liches are equal, so the entry contains rules for creating your own liches, so the GM could have stronger liches than the generic level 12 lich. Banshees on the other hand are created by tragedy. The person that becomes a banshee typically does not set out to do so, and only becomes one after "a betrayal that defined the final hours of their lives." The shock and rage they feel after death fuels their transformation into these horrifically powerful undead. It is not any betrayal that leads to the creation of a banshee, as most will result in your more typical ghost. It is your sweet, loving spouse, who've you been married for decades, smothering you on your deathbed so they can claim your wealth that much sooner, or your twin, who has been your closest friend your entire life, killing you so they can take your place in life. That kind of level of treachery. That is what makes P2e's banshees so powerful.
Banshees in Pathfinder are a bit different from Banshees in D&D. In Pathfinder they're the "furious, tormented souls of elves bound to the Material Plane by a betrayal that defined the final hours of their lives." Basically they're among the most cruel and powerful of undead spirits, fueled by nothing but hatred for the ones that betrayed them and by extension all life. There's at the very least a lot more flavour going on there compared to their 5e counterparts. Also when comparing a Lich to a Banshee, the raw numbers suggest that a Banshee is more powerful as a direct combatant. However, the bestiary is very clear on the fact that a Lich isn't your typical mindless monster. It'll craft and use various magical items to augment its own capabilities beyond what can be considered the "base Lich", encouraging the DM to customise the Lich to make the fight more unique and challenging. Of course, I would not put it beyond a Lich to have some minions assist it in combat.
In the Pathfinder 2e bestiary, there is a "one-size fits all" Lich who is a CR 12 creature. It's a fine statblock for a mid-level campaign: Level 1 PC's hear rumors of the dead rising, yada yada- 10 Level's later they beat the Lich, save the day, campaign is over. Puffin was likely just comparing this Bestiary out of the box Lich to the Banshee. That said, as another person mentioned, There is a Lich Template you can add to any creature... And thus, get a stronger Lich. It makes sense: If you are running a 20th level campaign, you probably don't have a generic Lich pulled straight out of the Bestiary as your final boss. As an aside, one of the primary antagonists in the Pathfinder universe is a All-Powerful Lich named Tar-Baphon. In-Universe, Tar-Baphon very recently broke free from the seals imprisoning him in his lair- Destroying and Turning an Entire Nation of righteous Clerics and Paladins, before nearly ascending to God-hood to become a fully-fledged Deity over Lichdom (That is, before the Player Characters stop him.) Rambling aside, Tar-Baphon is Far stronger than any Banshee could ever hope to be. I suppose you could say that while Pathfinder Banshees are of a set difficulty, you can (Theoretically) run into a Lich at any difficulty, be it a Fledgling Lich who is pitifully weak and may have accidentally turned himself, to Millennia-old Liches of unimaginable power who use Spells like Wish to rip out your still-beating heart. (Which is a Tactic Tar-Baphon has used before.)
@@thesensitivepsycho Indeed. Liches (and Arch Liches) are just templates that you can add to any spellcaster. You could have a level 20 Wizard turned into a lich (which adds +2 CR to the encounter). In the MM there's a CR 12 Lich who's a level 11 Wizard, just for a nice reference.
Myself and another GM tried to run Doomsday Dawn for our regular group. I was in charge of the chapters involving the primary player characters, while the other GM ran the secondary character chapters, so that we would each have the opportunity to practice GMing and playing the new version of the game. I found the structure of Doomsday Dawn to be fun and interesting; I liked the idea of a story spanning approximately a decade and shining the spotlight on different groups of heroes working towards the same goal. I also liked the fact that each chapter was written to test a very specific aspect of play (it was called a playtest for a reason, after all). Unfortunately, we never finished the adventure. Our group had been losing regular players due to life getting in the way for quite a while, and two of the regular players who did show up consistently had decided that they simply did not like the new rules, put in minimal effort to learn them, and did not listen to myself and the other GM when we told them what types of characters they should be making, such as one player making a barbarian when we were running the chapter that was supposed to test out healing magic/anti-undead combat, meaning that in a party that was supposed to consist of at least 2 clerics and other secondary healers, I was the only one following those guidelines (on the plus side, the halfling cleric/rogue character I made for that chapter ended up being one of my favourite characters I've played to date). In the end, trying to keep the game going ended up being more of a headache than it was worth, so we stopped playing before we'd even finished the fourth chapter. I still feel a bit of disappointment about that to this day, and given the chance would gladly run/play the adventure with again, with a more willing group.
Hi Puffin! Thanks for checking out the playtest module. During its run, the players really helped us out by stress-testing our systems and providing enough feedback to improve the final release of Pathfinder Second Edition.
If you'd like, we'd love to send you a PF2E Adventure Path to try out. I'm sure your entire party won't die as horribly this time ;)
Thanks! Yeah, the group had a TON of FUN playing the playtest material. We got two DMs running Pathfinder 2 material right now. I'm going to be starting up my own Pathfinder 2E Campaign soon. I appreciate the offer for the Adventure Path, but I'm already getting all the adventure paths myself. Keeping updated with your work!
I'll take his!
You are a bunch of amazing people.
As a cynical dm to be i think you are still planning on making the players die horribly just not as horribly, i know of a person that is called the dm of doom wacksteven his dice rolls are freakishly high one of the many dm of the table story channel.
So with dm like that players don't need any help dying.😉
Send him stuff anyway, so he can do a give away.
The Sword of Warning would have a field day with the TPK module.
I waaaarned you!
Lmao that's hilarious
A few days later, another group of adventurers arrive at the ruined church, beaten and battered from the previous battle that took place. Within the rubble, they hear a faint whimpering and unearth a broken sword muttering to itself: "I... I tried... I tried to warn them, but they... they didn't listen... please, I warned them"
Wow. That’s worse than a batallion of Navis
Samuel Cole Damnit, now I actually feel sorry for the (Defective) Sword of Warning.
The TPK module is an assault by the evil mastermind Otty Otterton. The mages are lead by Abserd in summoning forth the ultimate being to save the day: Chadwick Strongpants.
@zhuull1 Oh nO, We ArE iN GREAT dAnGer. wE MusT cALl thE StrONgesT PaNtS!
@@amberjones4067 The fact that I read that in Abserd's voice still haunts me to this day.
@@rafaelplugge3214 also read it in Abserd’s voice
Btw speaking of Abserd, a Pathfinder 2e version of him would be ridiculous
@@falxblade1352 thats a lot of class feats you gotta use up
as someone who plays pathfinder and knows what all those things do
holy shit that's the most ridiculous enemy list I've ever seen, and I played Wrath of the Righteous where you have to fight the entire Abyss
The TPK module is a kind of sequel to Wrath of the Righteous. The ritual happening below is being performed by the PCs of WotR.
@@apathetk The ritual is being performed by your main party story PCs from the first adventure in the book.
"The 'Esoteric Order heroes' whom there PCs escort and protect in this chapter are none other than those the players created for 'The Lost Star'."
@@Runnetib Huh. You're right. I think that I might have reflavored that bit when I ran it and just got it mixed up in my memory. Oops, lol.
Spoiler warning, next time! ಠ_ಠ My group is currently running that path for the first time.
It's only 666 levels Of the Abyss, its not that bad.
The main reason Puffin wanted to do TPK module was to make that pun-guy die horrendously
That's a bad thing?
Oh cmob what's wrong with a good barrage of puns?
@@FrostFoxMinzer3216 Right? we spend roughly 15% of each session making puns.
you say you hate them, but everyone loves our puns. what would you all do without us pun-guys?
@@cageybee7221 living life without having an urge to die every 5 minutes.
Jk, keep it going x)
there's something great about a TPK module:
create throw away disgustingly min-max'd characters; have it ran as a TTG, not a TTRPG; see who survives the longest.
Yeah! My brother ran a Tower Defense One-Shot for our group.
Full TPK.
The lore was, we (as ourselves not our characters ) woke up in a town inside our character's body.
The town was beeing attacked by fiends and the local king's best champions (our characters) all died in battle, Their souls were destroyed so the king just pulled randomly souls from some other plane and shoved it into their bodies.
"have it ran as a TTG, not a TTRPG"
I don't know, I'd use it as a chance to go full Jojo. Have the party be introduced by posing while the Pillar Men theme blasts in the background, add a lot of monologues and badass one liners and there you have it!
@@leonardorossi998 You can go full Jojo in your regular games as well, as long as the players are into it.
@@brotherbear92 Sure, but regular games might be a bit too complicated to go full JoJo, so this might be a nice break.
Then again, that was explicitly what the designers DIDN'T want you to do...
"Hey guys, let's run a one-shot where you're all level 12!"
"Oh, awesome! What's it about?"
"Do you remember the show '1000 ways to Die'?"
Honestly, if you assured me that my character wouldn't survive soon after creation, the only difference is I'd get silly with the naming with names like "Redd Shirt" or "Kanon Fodder"
I would name my character something with the initials D.E.D. but all of the names would be very generic sounding. Probably Dylan something.
I see you've played both Traveller *and* Paranoia!
Another great name-creation device is Google Translate. Just use random words in random languages as character names, so it sounds cool, but your character is actually named "dead guy" or something.
@@emc246 Daring Edward Dunderblast. mission codename: D.E.D. ( he shit his pants on death)
It's the perfect excuse to come up with something _Abserd!_
How to get your players to play a TPK module:
"Last survivor gets twenty bucks, plus a cupcake if they don't do any PvP shenanigans."
"Okay people lets take bets, who do you think will last longest?"
I would enjoy it because I like min-maxing
Or:
Call it the Cuphead/Dark Souls encounter.
Their pride will demand to keep making players until they beat it.
Sold
for that TPK module that ben talked about honestly id let them have like 3 sets of characters depending on lethality. After a few rounds they can choose to swap out to give others a rest of a few hit points or spell slots. It sounds like it could be a fun resource management challenge as both the DM and the players.
"After that, the horde arrives!" Stop, stop! They're already dead!
Seriously, it's like whoever wrote the TPK module aspired to be a Mythbuster: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing!
Now I am just thinking of animated crash test dummies attacking the party.
Mythic Busters and Dungeons: the Path of the Dragoning.
Mythbusters do tabletop and trading card game high fantasy RPGs to finally answer the age old question:
Is Ancalagon the Black the Most Powerful overpowered encounter in All Of The Things?
JRR Tolkien as DM: "first of all, all trees should be living immortal talking ancient elephant memoried speeches who were there when the first Elves were born and remember Galadriel's grandfather's favorite way to sing I Am the Very Model of a Nerdy Individual which makes an entire verse for each everything in the history of the created universe. They remember every single campfire in the history of the world and they all made them mad.
SECOND the biggest Dragon in the history of I Made It Up has two different wings each the size of the entire Ural Mountain range.
Back when the Urals were young and higher than the Himalayans by a lot.
Ok now the heroes are
One Boi in a Boat with a Shiny Rock.
It is a VERY shiny rock.
Oh and the trees forgot about hobbits and have to rewrite the whole thing from the top.
With tap dancing choreography ala Young Frankenstein.
The boat flies. Lookits cwute wifdle wingies. We named it FloatyMcBoatBoat in High Elvish.
Which in the Common Tongue is rendered "Vingilot" for "lots of wings".
Throughout my EVE career I learned one thing: "There's no kill like overkill."Clearly the devs play EVE too.
I cried at the moment you said: "Sometimes you have to show the player who is REALLY in charge of this game!" *Pffffft*
Generally in my pickup games, it's the "lol so random" player who decides to make the entire session a war on birdkind. Which can be fun, as long as it's not *every* session. :P
Do they just hate birds?
@@Earthstar_Review Hah it was kind of an interesting concept. She was a paladin of... Ugliness somehow? So she hated beautiful creatures and spent her spare time murdering birds but she was pretty down for exploring the creepy abandoned mansion we were there to investigate, because that was proper ugly in her estimation.
I mean, it still wasn't great - her first instinct on seeing the nice windows the mansion had was to throw her dead birds at them to try and break them (DM: "yeah, no, that's not going to do anything") but I did enjoy the idea of a half orc paladin beating beautiful people with a massive greatclub for being too attractive, haha.
Worshiper of Calistria somehow?
@@Earthstar_Review Haha first time I've heard of that deity. I'm going to guess probably not, but I do like her style. :P
So, as the author of this particular part of the adventure, I have to say, it may seem sadistic, but it gave us a great deal of feedback about perceived versus actual break points in the system. Getting good feedback on that thought, required the characters to go in blind. You build and play a character differently if you know they are being set up to die. Glad to hear the group had a good time with much of the module though. That sea serpent TPK'd a number of parties according to our feedback... even if it wasn't the purple worm.
I mean, as a DM who's dabbled into rules, I get that. It's a module meant for testing. It's not fully meant to tell a story, it's primarily meant to stress the system. Some people might complain about that, but they need to understand it isn't a traditional module.
So did you get this feedback before or after the DM got out of hospital? I've played with many groups and not one of them would have stood for this jackassery. Fuck you and fuck your game.
@@Snipergoat1 that's just mean, Lord Momma
I get and understand that, but making characters, especially if they are mid-high level, can be a chore. Putting in all that work just for them to be put into a no-win scenario is...kinda messed up. It then makes the players feel like they've had their time wasted. Nobody likes having their time wasted.
@@shino4242 that's why you inform them it's a play test but not the nature of it. Duh
I was hoping lake monster would get swapped out for Aboleth with a "Hai guyz, howsit goin'?"
Likewise, I was hoping that the final enemy the party had to face would be Abserd. "Hello! I am the final bad guy who is going to be doing the killing of you!"
I hate that I hear this in Abserd’s voice
@@jasendrileck2322 It's permanently stuck in my head.
Long live Whimsy!!!!
@@jasendrileck2322 Just as planned
3:00 drawing something in cube shape explains the "double all sides" stat stuff really well
Honestly, if I was warned beforehand so I can make a character I can get rid off, I would definitely be up for a suicide mission game just to see and epic fight and some powerful monsters.
Screw that, I am running an Epic Level party through that. If that.... thing, still kills them, it is just broken.
@@Jeremiah90526 Have fun!
also a chance to try out a new character class since they are dead anyway why not try something new
I've run meat grinder games of different systems. Generally, you're only going to attract a *certain* type of player, but if everyone is down, it can be loads of fun. If you have a friend who loves Warhammer and Dark Souls, they're probably going to like a session with absurd difficulty and lots of killing.
Time to write up Noble Squad from Halo Reach.
Purple Worms can actually swim just fine, but they don't like it because it leaves them mostly blind (tremor sense)
1:35 "Each action is a 4 hour period of the day. So 2 of the actions we'll probably have to spend sleeping."
Getting 8 hours of sleep? Space dragons and beholders I can believe, but that shit is too unrealistic.
Its more like 5-6 hrs when you include taking shifts for guard duty
@@quincyking010 Also someone has to cook and clean, Casters need to Prep spells, Martial Classes have to Practice, Probably need need to replenish ammo or potions too.
I mean, D&D _mandates_ 8 hours of sleep (well, rest, but I assume the “sleep” action covers that)
@@Pablo360able Depends on the edition, I believe, for the specifics. It's usually something like an 8 hour rest, of which some amount (I think it's 6 hours in 5e) must be sleep and the rest can only be non strenuous activity (nothing more than relaxation/flavor activities pretty much).
Indeed, I can scarcely get that much in this reality, in a D&D universe, let alone a pathfinder version, I'll be too occupied by all the beholders and apparently banshees to get any decent rest!
When my group got to this part of the play test, we were told during character creation to make the most terrible, unlovable, and generally unmissable characters we could. And when we all died terrible gruesome and for one of us very quick deaths, we all knew why.
I've played through the entire playtest. The TPK module was actually a lot of fun even though there is no chance you can beat it. I played an Abjuration wizard because we were warned ahead of time that we would be defending something. Wizards were very underpowered at that point in the beta but it was still a lot of fun.
I still think spellcasters are underpowered in Pathfinder 2E.
@@DrPluton i cant speak for late game, but 1-4 I feel a bit more useful/ strong and less squishy.
In my age of ashes game, a lot of our damage comes from sorcerer and druid with just cantrips.
What abouthem seemed weak if you dont mind me asking?
@@Bug_Berry the heightened spell system is very unfriendly to casters and the feat system removed the variety of spell casters
@@feritperliare2890 hmm that is unfortunate. I feel its likely due to all the players who complain about casters in 3.5 and pf1. Not fact, but just an observation.
@@Bug_Berry Anyone complaining about 3.5 or PF1 should pay 5e. How does 29 Lvl 9 spells sound to you?
Reminds me of D&D's "Apocalypse Stone" module. You fight several beholders and even a damned terrasque. Also the players get tricked into eating all of their loved ones in an evil bread made of souls.
What?
@@elhoteldeloserrantes5056 What has you confused?
Suicide type missions are great for getting those friends who would rather play war games, and you're trying to convince them that pathfinder is a lot more focused on combat than d&d.
Or for players who really want to test out their munchkin skills. Seems like a bad thing to throw at newbies for a system, which v2 was at that time.
@@Kereea That was the point, though. This was a playtest and the designers wanted to test the death/dying rules and power balance.
@@apathetk you would be suprised at how many people disnt realize this and still dont despite paizo being overly transparent about this fact.
Kereea I think that’s the reason behind a play test, they wanted the push to system to extreme situations and see what would happen. This isn’t meant for new players it’s meant for experienced ones.
From what ive been listening to, 4E is really good at making you have to have tactical combat. Critical Hit. Rodrigo really hammers his players with strong enemies, and doesnt pull punches.
in our group, we actually managed to survive the TPK Module, with the only Death being my Druids Panther and a Stubborn Goblin who wanted me to be responsible for his death, because i was slowed and couldn't get to him 1 round sooner. So he didn't use his Hero Point(at this time, it allowed you to essentially just not bother with being unconscious)
nice one bro no shot
4:27 BOOOOOOOOOOO! At least the Alchemist should have said, that "it hit ROCK Bottom!"
add another hit point to that one
Guess who just volunteered for the tpk module!
+1!
Would've gone with "let's make rukhsacks out of these fowl creatures."
"Looks like chicken is back on the menu, boys!"
If there's one thing this story has taught me, it's that I should make my next bulky tank PC a prolific punster so I can double-down on pulling aggro.
If I ran a TPK module, the conversation would go something like this:
ME: Hey guys, I have a game ready.
PLAYERS: Oh, so just running another game then?
ME: It's a TPK module!
PLAYERS: Oh, so just running another game then?
I guess for you a tpk is
Gnollmal
@@emdm2220 I'll go get a rope...
@@ManaMastery i would get barbed wire instead a rope might snap
I had to actually be extremely generous to my players to prevent a tpk. They almost died to a fucking goblin and a wolf. Later they had to fight a gargoyle and an animated statue. I had forgot it had acidic blood till i looked at the players, then at my notes. Coerced the bard to cast sleep, and bullshit that since animated statue was living magic, sending it asleep technically kills it, then proceeded to be extremely kind with what happened with the gargoyle. They were 2 hp on average away from death.
@@thegamingillustrator They almost died to a goblin and a wolf? How did that happen?
Here I was thinking "OK, my group MIGHT get to the treatchery demons..." and then you drop a cloud kill on the back... And there is MORE?!
That reminds me of that time when my DM started throwing hordes of mindflayers, dragons and purple worms at my like, 8th level party just to try and challenge us. Everyone was expecting a TPK each session, but we never lost a single party member.
Why are all your monsters so freaking adorable? Seeing the silly-cute drawings you come up with for all the stories is half the reason I love your channel so much (the other half being your mastercraft of telling a whole engaging story in what is often only about 10 minutes)
If all D&D creatures looked how Ben drew them, I bet any party running this module would want Shemmy as a pet. Along with all the blood/slime demons.
@@isenokami7810 I look up the shemhazian as a pathfinder and...oh boy he big. Its a 35ft monater of pure carnage.
Admittedly, I found out that in either D&D or Pathfinder, increasing damage and not HP or AC is a good way to increase threat without lengthening the fight.
I learned that from DCC
Instead of a "TPK" game, just advertise it as a "Hold The Line" type deal. Be up front with "In this, your characters will die. Your goal is to survive as long as possible." Design around the idea.
That's exactly what _wasn't_ wanted in the playtest, though. The developers needed a normal party to go into this, not a min-maxed one.
The big mistake here is the recommendation to blindside your friends with this. Talk with your group. If you want them to play non min-maxed characters, then have that dialogue with them, but also be honest about it being a survival game and not a standard adventure. Respect your friends and don't change expectations without first communicating.
This is was playtest module, it wasn't meant to entertain, it was meant to beta test a product. So yes, if I was trying to entertain my friends, I'd certainly tell them. But if I was trying to test the product, like Paizo wanted, I'd run it how they wanted.
@@SariusxX they needed to know when a party would wipe out to know what they needed to balance, making this useful for testing, that's why the module was invented for the player's to be unaware coming in, people would act differently if they knew it was a TPK machine, and in any situation where a TPK would happen the player's certainly wouldn't expect a TPK
@@connorschultz380 that's exactly what I said
I'm living for the purple wurm and the little floaties! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
I don't know if it would be better or worse if it was a worm on a string.
I *LOVE* the leveling in this idea! The Square-Cube Law is alive in Pathfinder!
I GMed the playtest for my group and we did every adventure. We actually had a ton of fun with the TPK module. They made it to the demilich before dying.
The thing none of us loved was the constant changing of characters.
WE DID NOT DIE! EVERYONE JUST GOT TIRED AND LEFT! i still think we could have beaten the demilich and then died right after him personally.
When the Roc fell down I would have said: “I guess it hit ‘ROC’ bottom!!” 😆.
Great video, as always!
It looks like had a ROCy start to this fight! I think its time for a Boulder approach!
Annoyed DM: "Rocs fall, everyone dies"
@@WildBluntHickok I actually love that interpretation of the meme line. Yeah, that’s your next encounter, just all of the rocs.
The important thing to remember here is "playtest". They want people to test every aspect they can think of to try and improve the system. Yes, if this was an effort to out Tomb Tomb being sold as an official module, then it would be a terrible thing to buy and run for any but the most sadistic, antagonistic GM. It isn't though. It is a request by the developers for people to destruct test character design principles and combat survivability. The alpha Delta Green playtest was an adventure that pretty much went intro, ambush, roll dice to get to final destination, monstrous horror SAN check, epic ambush, fade to black, because they wanted to test certain elements of the system. None of my players cared because it was a playtest (also you know what you signed up for playing DG...). That was what the developers needed - this module even says this in the intro.
Note: I am not saying your players were bad for not playing it; or that they spoilt things for the developers; or that they should have sucked it up or anything similar. It is a tricky balance between needing a "fair" test and player engagement. Purpose built min-max machines don't test "real" characters and some people will try to Kirk the scenario if they know. That is probably a group trust thing, knowing how far you can push them in the name of unpaid playtesting. You don't get a solid test if everyone has checked out playing non-stop pointless combat. There is also a good question as to how much the developers need this information and whether this is the best way to get it. However, for anyone watching thinking this is troll design or poor module construction, it isn't exactly (bar questions about informed choice). It does the job they want it to do. Playtests aren't necessarily meant to reflect a "real" game, they are a series of tests of the system. Some tests are more fun than others and some tests appear to have been designed by Aperture Science.
I'd say this was a triumph. I'm making a note here: huge success.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.
Implying people don't make min-max machines regularly enough for it to impact the test >.
@@jonasfree2 ...touche.
That is a good point though. I have no doubt they would also want to know how easy it is to break the system over your knee with a careful selection of feats, attributes etc. The older Pathfinder and DnD editions are, after all, justly notorious for such things (given the insane number of supplements and the general mindset of a reasonable number of players). Just speaking for myself, I deliberately made a highly specialised wolfpack-slayer using Unearthed Arcana (later in Xanathar...) for 5e Curse of Strahd because pack attack was tearing through our group - including his predecessor. I think the difference here is not "Can people overdesign an otherwise lopsided character who can survive this ridiculous scenario but not be able to function in general play?" but "How long can "normal" characters survive so we can dial in lethality and survival traits?". If a regular group wandered in here, what would happen? There are a fair number of min-maxers in "normal" play, but even those would not be purpose-built TPK-scenario characters, but rather examples of regular play from one type of player. "How long can those PCs survive?" is a valid question for a playtest; "Can people create a survivor for this non-representative, terrible grind, murder box given enough time and resources?" is not...
If this were an insane con game though, with a survival leaderboard, that would be pretty cool.
@@mikedrew604 I think 'literally everything else' would be a better means of judging what a normal character's survivability is, and the TPK gauntlet a good place to throw broken builds at. Some of those builds might be a bit focused, but if anything it'll underestimate because rarely will a character be stuck in constant combat.
@@basedeltazero714 I do see your point, however I still recognise the developers' purpose in creating this. I have used survivability as a short hand, but I think there is more to it than that. This scenario tests damage output; combat potential of different class combinations; how effective particular spells are; how people use spell slots; how relevant in-combat healing is; how combat skills work; and a wide variety of other elements, all under the umbrella of how much players can ultimately face before TPK. Playtest scenarios are not necessarily meant to be balanced, or reflections of good game design, or even fun, they are meant to give the developers feedback on aspects of their game. If this means one entire adventure is a series of wilderness survival tests, then so be it. These adventures seem more like a traditional campaign - and thus more like regular gameplay - but even so, they were built to ensure individual aspects of the system were guaranteed to be tested - and in this case destruct tested.
Robin D. Laws holds that players don't want an easy time. They want to beat the final encounter, yes, but they want to do it on their last hit points, spell slots exhausted. They want an epic fight, the feeling that everything could go wrong at any minute, and a final, dramatic victory. I'd agree, the most exciting fight scenes we have had across systems were when we came closest to defeat before winning. As part of that, many encounters are geared to grind down resources to help create tension in the final encounter. The questions in DnD-style games seems to be "Can we risk one more encounter or do we rest?", where in-game time itself is a resource. The playtest notes describe the same mindset: the idea that "the players have to feel that their characters are in danger" so that the game "convey[s] drama and a sens [sic] of urgency". I would suggest that most "real" scenarios are created with two goals which can feel at odds with each other: 1) Most groups will want to complete the adventure - or at least make it to the final boss before being defeated; 2) Most groups will want a sense of challenge in order to get a sense of accomplishment. Dialling this in must be incredibly difficult, and this scenario has presumably been created to help work out how far the average character can go. This will hopefully help scenario design balance (and presumably whatever the equivalent of Threat/Encounter/Challenge Rating is) and judge the effectiveness of class powers, spells etc.
Again, people don't have to like this or think it good scenario design, but for it to work as a test of "regular" PCs, people need to play it with "regular" PCs.
when he said one little person to tpk your players I thought he was going to say Chadwick strong pants
My guess was Otty Otterton.
2:09 Oh man. I was bracing myself for a swashbuckling sea monster armed with a fencing sword and can do flips and stuff.
OH GOD NOT THE 19TH LEVEL JERK
When you explained the TPK module, I was just like : "That's nice and all, but when does the Tarrasque comes up ?"
Pathfinder 2e actually doesn't have stats for a tarrasque.
@@sagecolvard9644 Because Tarrasque is copyrighted monster I think, just like mind flayers, carrion crawlers, beholders, and few others.
@@sagecolvard9644 But the 1st edition had one. It must be doable to port it to 2E. Still, it's weird they were allowed to make Tarrasques for the 1st edition but not for the second one.
@Klaital1 How on Earth did they copyright a Tarasque? They’re from real world French folklore. It would be like copyrighting a unicorn.
@@Klaital1
The Tarrasque is actually a monster from old French folklore, which is why Pathfinder 1e was allowed to have one. Paizo just decided not to have one for 2e.
Important note: The TPK mission was actually protecting the MAIN PCs for the overarching campaign. So I imagine that would help the party's motivation a bit since their original group was the ones downstairs performing the ritual. [And while a surprise TPK mission is a dick move from a GM side - as a system test it makes sense since the devs are trying to test the system's lethality against normal PCs, not PCs specifically made with the intent of a combat meatgrinder.]
That said, my group was a bit behind schedule, so we ended up skipping several of the side sections (including that one) in order to finish the main playtest on time. Which was probably a good choice overall, since the final boss fight ended up being a great battle that pushed my group to the brink and had several satisfying conclusions to character arcs as a result. Not to mention it finally used up the group's get-out-of-death-free buff they got in session 1 since the playtest version of hero points actually made it REALLY difficult for anyone to stay down in a fight, let alone actually die.
Because NO ONE min-maxes their character for combat meatgrinders without prompting by foreknowledge :P
I and my wife were also involved in one of those playtests, we actually survived the TPK module. The whole group.
How? Just... _how?_
I am also curious. Did you know it was a TPK module?
According to the data Paizo collected, around 2% of tables survived. As a GM who ran it I am blown away anyone made it as it is indeed extremely difficult. I imagine the dice rolled heavily in their favor.
Explain.
Usually, when the DM says rocs fall, everyone dies. Eh? Eh? I'll show myself out.
@VoiceAnon -- Good news: that was a pretty good pun. Bad news: Your character now gets attacked by 1000 Gnolls....
Ok, hold on a second, that is 20 d8 damage which means you take 95 force damage. If your Character is still alive, let me know.
@@Jeremiah90526 I'm a 42 con, Vow of Poverty Forsaker, can I keep ruining your mood-setting now? ( I love this build as a meme because you can reach Spell Resistance 32+ your hd if you play a Bariaur(LA+1) while also being generally immortal but you can't do anything else or even hold magic items hahaha. You're literally a useless, immortal spectator).
@@dddmemaybe Well, would you look at that, a Terrasque just fell out of the Earth to your left, it is going to use its bite attack on you. That is a 38 to hit (5e, it would be a 56 in PF 2e), what is your AC (yeah, it hit, don't bs, and take 31 points of piercing damage)? As the attack hit, it will swallow, causing 16d6 acid damage at the start of its next turn. Best of luck getting out of its stomach (next turn it succeeds its saving throw if you manage to get 60 HP of damage in a single turn somehow, but fails the next one if you do it again).
I have had meme players that I have done this shit to so they would stop trying to break the game. Always said afterwards "and then you wake up, drenched in sweat. You notice new scars of what looks like tooth marks on your body, you are short x HP, have a point of exhaustion, and are frightened for the next day."
you take 10 d4 damage!!!!
no not the sum, I meant I am throwing 10 d4s AT YOU!
When I ran Doomsday Dawn playtest my players figured out part 5 was a TPK test early on, so they weren't too upset when they got wrecked. They were at the end of their resources when they just barely defeated the demilich, with two of the four characters dying. The last two realized the situation was unwinnable and teleported away. Not very brave, sure, but when I showed them my shemhazian miniature they were glad they didn't try to continue. Not that they would have made it to the final opponentsince there were more opponents before them. They were just glad that two of them made it past the demilich, which is where Paizo reported most tables failed, according to the data they collected.
Still, we all had fun and are currently playing through the second edition Age of Ashes adventure path.
Would love to see more Pathfinder, love it so much.
I concur!
I also agree :) I actually enjoy Pathfinder 1st edition much more than any of the other DnD versions
A GM I knew had a TPK story in one of his games, and it was pretty fun, mainly 'cuz we all knew it was a TPK from the start and it was a way to introduce our actual characters. Our GM made the characters we needed to play, so there was no bad tastes of losing a character we worked hard on.
Last time I was this early, malikar still had vestiges of humanity
I dont usually like the "early" jokes, but I like the punchline
@@krakenwarrior3237 I know! Me too!! Oh how I've missed that guy, he's the best*
Second only to a chibi Aboleth =^~^=
1:17 and he didn’t go for the obvious play on words of “You made a mountain out of a knoll hill?” ... I’ll see myself out.
I might be making a mountain out of a gnollhill here but IT IS GNOLL!!!!!!!
Your right to life is now Gnull and void
I started out as a viewer who didn't play D&D. I went out and bought the Stranger Things D&D campaign. Just completed it not even 24 hours ago. The DM murdered me twice. Very rude of him.
WhiteLasagna I was the same
Aw fuck. I can't believed he'd done that.
I've never played D&D or any kind of tabletop role-play game. But your videos are so awesome that I can't help but watch them. Also I do really appreciate the whole make believe imagination creativity that goes into table tops. Keep up with the videos huge fan
Also, I feel identified with your friend of the puns. I tend to do that too XDDDD I'm happy to see he's a constant
As a 3.5 player, I always love to hear terms like "Fortitude Save"!
I never played Tabletop RPGs ,the closest thing I've played are the Divinity Original Sin Games. Thanks for acknowledging our existence
Daniel Naumann divinity is actually surprisingly similar tbh
Div, the old D&D games (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Planescape: Torment, etc) and Pathfinder: Kingmaker. All are pretty good video game conversions of classic tabletop RPGs.
Pathfinder has PC game：pathfinder kingmaker. It is real time combat with pause (like baldur’s gate 1 and 2) but it is awesome. The second game is also under develop now. The game is a bit tough for new player as it needs player has knowledge of the rule but very fun to play.
You poor deprived soul. Find yourself a good D&D group. Might wanna emphasize Good.
@@michaelfoye1135 I've been looking for official groups, but there are none around and my friends are horribly disinterested :(
Edit: There are very few DnD groups in Germany
The TPK module was designed to test how much healing players could do. It even asks the DM to tell the players that everyone should have ways to heal.
We had fun at are last session of Pathfinder 2e I highly recommend it
I as well!
So yeah, finally returned to this channel after so long... it's good to see Puffin Forest being awesome and telling us great stories once more.
I think, as a player, it would be fun to have a high-level slugfest campaign (as in, a oneshot) where the entire purpose is just: Survive for as long as you possibly can.
That's this, starting at 5:38 minutes.
@@JoshSweetvale Yes... That would be the exact reason why I made that comment... Because I would like to try something like that. Because this video talks about it.
@@1Kapuchu100 Yes.
...Aight.
I absolutely love your videos! I haven't been able to play table-top RPGs for a few years now, but your videos always bring back very fond memories for me. Thank you puffin!
"Joker": I guess that's how we--
DM: One more pun out of you and I'm calling Uncle Phil.
"Joker": ….roc and roll!
Dm: ...
A few seconds later:
"Joker": *lets out a Jazz's yell*
This literally popped up during my D&d sesh. We stopped the campaign to watch 😝 Love you Puffin!
making a character to die is cool with me, i would appreciate knowing that the module is very hard of course, i mean, i dont need to know that you are going to 100% kill my character, but i would like to know that i should not think a very elaborate backstory for him or her until after the session.
I wonder if these playtest modules come with pre-gen characters?
Been playing a pathfinder campaign for 3 years now. Love the system. Was easy for me to get in and play. Can't wait to check out the new stuff
If Ben is running your game:
1) NEVER, *EVER* use puns if there’s anything within 100m of you.
What if the pun is only obvious in hindsight? Like the time I *literally* railroaded my players, by placing them on a train and having plot take place at the various stops.
2) Never trust NPC party members EVAR especially the innocent ones just in case they stab you in the back because no one is THAT innocent.
PS kidnap the non Party member NPCs they are more useful.
Well, that's one way to break a funny bone!
3) Never call the Tortle Wizard Oogway or he will not help you.
Thanks for the concern Ben! Its not that i dont play DnD ,its just hard to find people with same interests in my country ,your stories always make my day especially the Wallace arc thats the best!
On the subject of walking through feces, just last week, while playing Changeling, my party and I were chasing a bird with a magic artifact through a sewer. One of the party got the bird to drop the artifact, right into the sewage. So I, having the ability to change into a seal, had to swim down and get it.
Halo Reach's ending is one of my favorite for all games ever(that I've played). I'd love to play a TPK module, as long as I knew beforehand.
I told my players this was essentially a TPK module when I was running the playtest, and they all decided not to do it. But I do agree, the players need to know beforehand. I think Paizo's goal was to avoid players completely min-maxing their characters in preparation of this fight, but ya know.... shit happens....
My group has recently transitioned into PF2E and are having an absolute blast with it. We are running a homebrew that includes the following plot hooks:
1) Ancient dead dragon being resurrected by a cult of kobalds.
2) Dwarven prince who is trying to single handedly retake his fallen kingdom using a legendary artifact weapon.
3) A druid searching for a reason why his watering hole is suddenly spewing blood and is also being chased by a Windego.
4) A traveling circus somehow gets wrapped up in all these events.
Most of the players are from the circus and I'm the druid, we've reached lvl 2 so far and are about 10 sessions in. I love how much more deadly traps are in 2E. I personally feel that is the best change they made to the game as traps always felt like a joke in PF.
Sounds like the extinction curse adventure path
@@andrewwahba5006 I'm unfamiliar with that, is it older?
@@ssj3icecap It is the new Adventure Path that is currently being released, it's about the party being members of a circus and they even makes shows and can recruit more people to the crew.
@@kyrone2406 how long has this been announced for? Think my DM got some explaining to do 😅
@@ssj3icecap it's been out since January at least
Went to rewatch this vid and finally give it a like.
Believe it or not, Ben, just you explaining monsters adding their levels to their attacks cleared up confusion that I, for some reason, kept having with Starfinder. I never quite understood the "foe adds level to attack rolls" bit, but now I do. To keep a challenge in the game.
Thanks dude.
They fell like a... sack of rocs
The rocs miraculously returns with 1 hit point and attacks you
I suppose bad puns are one way to get your rocs off.
You guys are realling roc-ing these terrible puns.
Some of these puns are off their Roc-ker
Man we're really hitting Roc-bottom.
We used to run TPK adventures on halloween as a one shot. It was usually the "winner" was the last one standing. Everybody in the party eventually died, but it was fun, because it was a "see how far you can get" kind of situation.
The Heroes of Undarin reminds me of the zombie hoard modes in FPS's. I could see some groups of people playing through it with some kind of scoring system attached to see who gets the best score.
I see where that could be fun, but I expect it would also be very slow, where hoard modes in video games tend to be fast paced and stressful.
@@madhippy3 Trust me, this was still stressful haha XD
5e is training wheels RPG. Have never cared for D&D post 3.5E. Thanks for giving some love to Pathfinder though sir! Great video as always.
That module actually seems like it would be pretty great if the enemies gave loot, and the players had time to prepare against the enemies without actually knowing that they would be facing.
Your intro is why I come back watching these videos everytime!
OH NO PUFFIN IS GOING TO TPK US. RUUUUN
Thank God a long video by puffin. My week has been made!
So...
Tomb of annihilation 2: Pathfinder Boogaloo?
Not really, most of the Tomb of Annihilation's TPK potential came from traps, not endless hoards of monsters, to the point that if you knew what you were doing, you could pretty easily get a party through the entire dungeon. For this module, even the munchkiniest group of players would struggle to make it anywhere near the end.
(Grian not included)
LOVE the pathfinder material Puffin! It's currently my favorite ttrpg and the one that I personally GM. I personally find that that tightrope of power level is very fine in all the published material now. Great fodder for some near-death slapstick antics!
Im one of those degenerates who watches and doesnt play
You're not alone
Same
Me too
Welcome to the club.
Same
I actually enjoyed playing this module. While I had created a character with some roleplay depth that never got used in this combat-only module, I knew not to get attached to her because it was the only module she'd be in. She was a monk...and man did I enjoy testing out how monks can interact with that environment in combat! Still really enjoy playing a monk in the final version of p2e, even though its changed a bit, and find it works best if you have a fighter to flank with on the team!
the pun guy is so epic that i am not sure puffin can handle his epicness !!!!
Love to see some 2e content from a bigger dnd creator! Loving the system and I'm glad to see it is working it's way into your heart to!
0:49 I mean, I can think of worse ways to start out a game. As an immature person with the sense of humor of a 7 year old, I’d be dying at the table from laughter.
Yes, I'm one of those who don't play DnD and watch your videos... I play Pathfinder. Anyway, great vid as always!
Wave after wave of overpowered monsters attack.
"I waaaaarned you!"
Hi Ben, you are the one who inspired me to play dnd and I really like it so I wanted to say thank you.
TPK=Total Player Kill? Hmmm...where have I heard that scenario before?
"This us the Kobayashi Maru. We have hit a graviric mine..."
That TPK module sounds like the start of a groundhog day scenario where the character(s) are stuck in the time loop until they can survive the entire encounter. Would be an interesting scenario to customize.
I guess you could say "shem's da breaks" :D
I'm not even sure how I stumbled on your channel but I'm glad I did. You make me LOL for real
I'd love to *play* the tpk module but never dm it. that's a LOT OF enemies on the battle field, and i already have trouble keeping up with encounters
Luckily they set it up specifically as waves. Never all that many on the field at onc3.
It's really fun to run as a GM, but as a player it can be pretty fun. I got my group of players to agree to it by using standard premade characters and framed it as a "gauntlet-styled meat grinder". They were into it for that.
I really want to teach my girls how to play DnD or pathfinder. They would love it and your stories always make me think of the crazy situations they'd get into.
8:40 With my limited RPG knowledge, I was thinking they were gonna send in a tarrasque.
A tarrasque in pathfinder is literally unkillable. It's a unique monster created by one of the gods in the setting and is way, WAY over their level for this module. It's over level 20 if I remember correctly, and they're only level 12. They wouldn't even be able to hit it. This module, while hard, was supposed to see how long they lasted. From what I found out, every party that attempted this died at the demilich encounter, so about 2/3s of the way through. By that point though, it was a war of attrition. They probably could've taken the demilich if they were fresh, but they weren't. That's useful data, a random Tarrasque is not haha XD
If I were told ahead of time it was a TPK Module I think it'd be kinda fun to try out. It's not often you get to go into a fight saying "I'm gonna lose this but I wanna see how far I can get".
It looks like that player was a glutton for..
WAITFORIT
....pun-ishment!
BOO
With a crossbowman, a Paladin with a holy avenger, and a couple of Good clerics, pleny of holy water, and a well stocked mage, that module doesn't have to be a tpk. Especially if they use the rubble to make fortifications around the stairs down. Sure its basically a really weird re-enactment of the Alamo, but a good defensive position, and crossbow fired holy water vials, all those undead are just mobbing a kill zone. If the party can avoid becoming dominated, they aught to be able to pull it off. If they have time to prepare the defenses, they might even be able to fire blindly at the sherazain through arrow slits and murder holes without meeting its gaze. A mage eye can give an early warning, as can a few magic mouth spells, albeit without the recon benefits. As for cloudkill, its not terribly effective against high level characters, but if he escorted npcs are vulnerable you can set a gust of wind to a steady breeze throughout the entire encounter, sending all incoming unpleasant odors out of the fortified area as well.
Why on Earth would a Banshee be more powerful than a Lich? A Banshee is just a particular kind of ghost but a Lich is an exceptionally powerful wizard who made itself undead to become immortal.
Pathfinder 1e uses templates you can add to any creature to make it more powerful. Maybe Lich is just a template you're expected to add PC levels to?
The Pathfinder 2e lich, as presented in the Bestiary, is supposed to represent a wizard who lichified themselves shortly after getting strong enough to do so. Not all liches are equal, so the entry contains rules for creating your own liches, so the GM could have stronger liches than the generic level 12 lich.
Banshees on the other hand are created by tragedy. The person that becomes a banshee typically does not set out to do so, and only becomes one after "a betrayal that defined the final hours of their lives." The shock and rage they feel after death fuels their transformation into these horrifically powerful undead. It is not any betrayal that leads to the creation of a banshee, as most will result in your more typical ghost. It is your sweet, loving spouse, who've you been married for decades, smothering you on your deathbed so they can claim your wealth that much sooner, or your twin, who has been your closest friend your entire life, killing you so they can take your place in life. That kind of level of treachery. That is what makes P2e's banshees so powerful.
Banshees in Pathfinder are a bit different from Banshees in D&D. In Pathfinder they're the "furious, tormented souls of elves bound to the Material Plane by a betrayal that defined the final hours of their lives." Basically they're among the most cruel and powerful of undead spirits, fueled by nothing but hatred for the ones that betrayed them and by extension all life. There's at the very least a lot more flavour going on there compared to their 5e counterparts.
Also when comparing a Lich to a Banshee, the raw numbers suggest that a Banshee is more powerful as a direct combatant. However, the bestiary is very clear on the fact that a Lich isn't your typical mindless monster. It'll craft and use various magical items to augment its own capabilities beyond what can be considered the "base Lich", encouraging the DM to customise the Lich to make the fight more unique and challenging. Of course, I would not put it beyond a Lich to have some minions assist it in combat.
In the Pathfinder 2e bestiary, there is a "one-size fits all" Lich who is a CR 12 creature. It's a fine statblock for a mid-level campaign: Level 1 PC's hear rumors of the dead rising, yada yada- 10 Level's later they beat the Lich, save the day, campaign is over.
Puffin was likely just comparing this Bestiary out of the box Lich to the Banshee. That said, as another person mentioned, There is a Lich Template you can add to any creature... And thus, get a stronger Lich. It makes sense: If you are running a 20th level campaign, you probably don't have a generic Lich pulled straight out of the Bestiary as your final boss.
As an aside, one of the primary antagonists in the Pathfinder universe is a All-Powerful Lich named Tar-Baphon. In-Universe, Tar-Baphon very recently broke free from the seals imprisoning him in his lair- Destroying and Turning an Entire Nation of righteous Clerics and Paladins, before nearly ascending to God-hood to become a fully-fledged Deity over Lichdom (That is, before the Player Characters stop him.) Rambling aside, Tar-Baphon is Far stronger than any Banshee could ever hope to be. I suppose you could say that while Pathfinder Banshees are of a set difficulty, you can (Theoretically) run into a Lich at any difficulty, be it a Fledgling Lich who is pitifully weak and may have accidentally turned himself, to Millennia-old Liches of unimaginable power who use Spells like Wish to rip out your still-beating heart. (Which is a Tactic Tar-Baphon has used before.)
@@thesensitivepsycho Indeed. Liches (and Arch Liches) are just templates that you can add to any spellcaster. You could have a level 20 Wizard turned into a lich (which adds +2 CR to the encounter). In the MM there's a CR 12 Lich who's a level 11 Wizard, just for a nice reference.
0:05
Hahaha you call me out!!!
I don’t have much interest playing D&D but your stories are hilarious and so fun to watch!!
Literally the EXACT moment you said the poop monster started throwing poop at them, I farted irl and felt the stench.
Gross, but immersive!
I love how you can make gigantic high CR monsters adorable.
Yeah, especially the Shemhazian, AKA, mutilation demon. Not something I'd usually associate with the term "adorable".
Playing a campaign knowing your supposed to die could be fun
Myself and another GM tried to run Doomsday Dawn for our regular group. I was in charge of the chapters involving the primary player characters, while the other GM ran the secondary character chapters, so that we would each have the opportunity to practice GMing and playing the new version of the game. I found the structure of Doomsday Dawn to be fun and interesting; I liked the idea of a story spanning approximately a decade and shining the spotlight on different groups of heroes working towards the same goal. I also liked the fact that each chapter was written to test a very specific aspect of play (it was called a playtest for a reason, after all). Unfortunately, we never finished the adventure. Our group had been losing regular players due to life getting in the way for quite a while, and two of the regular players who did show up consistently had decided that they simply did not like the new rules, put in minimal effort to learn them, and did not listen to myself and the other GM when we told them what types of characters they should be making, such as one player making a barbarian when we were running the chapter that was supposed to test out healing magic/anti-undead combat, meaning that in a party that was supposed to consist of at least 2 clerics and other secondary healers, I was the only one following those guidelines (on the plus side, the halfling cleric/rogue character I made for that chapter ended up being one of my favourite characters I've played to date). In the end, trying to keep the game going ended up being more of a headache than it was worth, so we stopped playing before we'd even finished the fourth chapter. I still feel a bit of disappointment about that to this day, and given the chance would gladly run/play the adventure with again, with a more willing group.