I did this therapy and it definately helped me. 7 months of therapy helped me get over 13 years of PTSD! I have seen countless therapists and this was the only treatment that helped significantly.
I've heard that each time you remember an experience, you're also remembering the last time(s) you remembered it. So remembering something deliberately while you're in a peaceful place, like the woods, can imprint some of the feeling of that place on the memory in the future. Trying to block the memory puts further stress on you, and makes you associate even more trauma with that memory. Not sure how much research has been done in this effect.
Steve Davis I believe that this is similar to what is told in the video, the connecting of the traumatic experience to positive thoughts, or in this case, positive experiences. I think the effect would be quite similar.
I had EMDR today, it was so weird and afterwards it made me feel light and relaxed and much more aware of my surroundings and thought process. It helped a lot. I was skeptical of it but it's so weird how it works.
The time it takes to work is what's revolutionary! My friend had this done 3 times and no longer suffers ptsd. This was after 6 years of trauma whatever cbt that didn't help her AT ALL.
@@wilsmith6551 and yet it doesn't work with many people. a lot of people in the comments stated it didn't work at all for CPTSD, as this is not single events, but a whole 10 to 15 years of these events, some of which you can't even remember anymore. this can be helpful for single time trauma, but saying its a miracle cure for everyone is just wrong and ignoring complex ptsd survivors.
@@Slythegirl123 CPTSD is a longer piece by piece approach, and has worked for a lot of people. I also recommend brain spotting which seems to be more effective. But I stay by miraculous
It's not stupid or a placebo. Whatever is going on with it, it does work for dealing with traumatic memories. It doesn't make them go away. It's not a miracle one-session cure. But it can make life liveable again.
As Boxer said, it's the desensitising that is effective. Additional stimuli (sounds, lights tapping etc.) play little to no role in the effectiveness of outcome.
I think commenters here are not trained therapists and do not realize how hard it is to treat trauma. Why do you think EMDR is so heavily researched and controversial, which it is, it is finally approved by all medical insurance companies and the VA. Like she said, research proves it works more than no treatment or placebo, it works equally well as cognitive therapy that does the desensitizing without the bilateral stimulation part. What I will say is that some research shows EMDR working faster than cognitive therapy--so same results but much faster. That would be helpful for people tormented by memories of being assualted or watching someone die. Does that make sense? The trained clinicians of EMDR are routinely invited to large disasters to help survivors, that's what no one likes to talk about, the fact that this community of therapists are helping people heal from horrible horrible events.
I totally agree, it doesn't make your trauma 'go away' it's still there, but it made me able to do many more things that I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. I don't care if it's 'placebo' or 'the eye movements' don't do anything for someone else, but they worked for ME. I am so thankful that they did work for me too!
As an emergency service worker who started suffering fairly severe PTSD and had experienced various rounds of trauma focused CBT without any enduring benefit (more like symptom control, rather than curative IMO) I was finally referred for EMDR (headphone click method). The traumas presented each other sequentially over a series of sessions. In each case the memories became more vivid, surpressed memory was released and details seemingly forgotten were filled out, then each memory faded, greyed out and were viewed from an increasingly distant perspective before the next popped up. After 12 tough sessions over 3 months I was done, discharged. 2.5 years hence I have had no return of symptoms of PTSD although the other emotional and behavioural consequences have only just been resolved. My take on EMDR? I don't care how it works, it is spooky brain magic that has undoubtedly saved my life. Thanks. Sorry for the essay.
I was a bit skeptical of emdr. After my first session all I could say to describe it was that it was weird. But in a good way. My mind went places that surprised me. I used a hand held thing in each hand that would alternate vibrations from one hand to the other. I think the key is bilateral movement to help process. I have been in therapy for 9 years and emdr was unlike any type of session I had before.
I had a similar experience holding little vibrating things in each hand and had a headset that alternated beeps in each ear in sync with the handheld devices. No eye movement was involved, but it definitely "disloged" some emotional trauma, suggesting the bilateral stimulation explanation to me. This was then alternated with more conventional therapy to help correctly process the thoughts and feelings brought up by the "EMDR" therapy. (Though, with no eye movement, that may be a bad term for the therapy)
My therapist has also been having me use the buzzers in the hand. My diagnosis isn’t PTSD, it’s Depression and Anxiety with a history of emotional and verbal abuse, but the buzzers make it a lot easier for me to talk about memories that would normally induce a panic attack if I tried to talk about them normally. The way my therapist explained EMDR was that it mimicked REM sleep. Idk if that’s real, and this video kinda confirms my suspicions that it’s not really cut and dry, but I’m in the camp of “I don’t care how it works as long as it works”. And it has been working for me.
Just remember not to dismiss the sceptics. This treatment doesn't work for everyone. I have PTSD and did this and it was just weird. All it did was kick the memories up in the air and make everything worse. I benefited from more talking therapies as I never got the chance to talk about what I went through and that helped a lot with combating it. Don't just think this treatment is effective and a cure-all for everyone because different people prefer different therapies.
I have the same experience. And then they say it's normal for it to get worse first and that it will get better after a while. But after more than 10 sessions I just felt worse than ever and it became unbearable. My trauma's were all worse and I can almost say that I gained a new one in the form of the EMDR sessions. My theory for this is because it doesn't work well on complex trauma's because those do NOT have a simple single memory to focus on to soften the whole blow of that experience being repeated over and over again.
Same thing happened to me. I agree too with Melora Carabas. I have CPTSD (rather than just PTSD) from childhood abuse. I spent so much time arguing with my therapist that there was not just 'one time' to go back too. Also, some of what was done to me was done so early in life I only have the fuzziest senses of it (smells, sounds, sights) rather than stored-memory stories of it, making it difficult/impossible to do the steps required for EMDR. I am finding an embodied therapy, in my case, sensory motor psychotherapy, to be way more effective than EMDR.
@@survivedandthriving i have cptsd as well and they called this ART therapy where I got it. I also have aphantasia, so all of the visualizations didn't work for me. It worked on one of my more 'simple' traumas, but it would not work on my recurrent childhood trauma.
@@Slythegirl123 Thank you for the supportive, constructive comment. I am sorry to hear that you have had circumstances in your life that mean that you understand what I am talking about. Sending you good-energy thoughts on your healing journey.
@@survivedandthriving you too!! i'm currently going through talk therapy and uncovering my unintentional coping mechanisms like age regression- good luck to you, i hope you find/have gotten the support you need, and I hope everything goes well!
This video might need to be updated... EMDR just beat CBT (our best treatment) in treating depression.... Depression not PTSD. And there is newer studies for the treatment of PTSD as well. I am an EMDR practioner and it has changed my practice no doubt about it :) Thanks for bringing awareness!
I was thinking the exact same thing I am not a practitioner but I hope to be one day and I am currently on year two of my EMDR art journey using complex PTSD as my focus I have found that EMDR is better than CBT in the way that it brings up repressed memories better than any other therapy I have tried I have multiple mental health issues though lol I love your comment there's not a whole lot of comments on here showing that it needs to be updated 🥰 and everyone of your patients appreciates everything you do 🥰
Now I'm just moving my eyes around and I FEEL THEM. So weird. Like you normally don't feel your eyes, but when you start thinking about it, it's the only thing that you can feel. That is some mindfullness concentration practice right there.
You can also tilt your eyes inside your skull. Do this: close your eyes, imagine the line that is the horizon. Slowly tilt your head from side to side. If you can't feel it doing that, then get to a mirror you can stand right up against. Look yourself in the eye. Imagine the horizon (or the line of the floor intersecting the wall behind you). Then tilt your head slowly, while watching your eyes.
ahgflyguy I totally thought you were crazy until I tried this in front of a mirror. I had always thought when I tilted my head the world just seemed straight because my brain was counteracting the tilt, but I was definitely under the impression that we didn't have muscles that could tilt our eyes in that way. Thanks for the mind-blow, dude.
ahgflyguy woah that's insane! I didn't exactly know what you meant, but when I looked in the mirror, I saw it! It's almost like it's a gyroscope camera stabilizer. I feel like I have a ton of questions now... like how does it do that but we can't consciously move our eyes that way on purpose? How do our eyes know what's upright? I just... wow
TBH, tons of these seem like so random without any theories backing it up and the only one backing them up are like, oh smell ur middle finger, since you always stick it up in front of people you hate, u can smell the scent of vengeance, now you have increased ur strength and can fight supervillains, and eventually seems like a longer story for hypnosis or a placebo.
One of my therapists did something similar, where I wore headphones which played a tone in alternating ears for about 15 seconds, a break to discuss, then repeat. Really effective for me.
Nee It is the same principle with the EMDR eye-movement but done with sound, hearing involved instead of sight. It can also be applied with touch (alternating tapping on the client's knees for example)
Nee It doesn't play much of a role in effectiveness - it's more to do with exposure therapy, ie processing the event over and over until your brain essentially becomes desensitized to the trauma. Additional sounds or tapping or lights etc. aren't proven to make a difference.
Hi: I'm glad you got to the conclusion that EMDR is a highly effective means of therapy for PTSD. It is! It is also a comprehensive therapy technique that does not rely on the eye movements - that is the piece that gets attention because it seems "weird." I explain more in my UA-cam video "How Does EMDR Works" As a trauma therapist, I believe EMDR is incredibly effective and I am very happy it is a therapy I can offer my clients. Some clients don't like the eye movements (I use a light bar, not my finger), so they can use tappers (held in the hands which alternate a buzzing between left and right hands) or headphones (alternating sounds). All of these methods of bilateral stimulation of the brain seem to do the trick! I also do trauma-informed CBT, although the EMDR seems to help more rapidly and produce more comprehensive results. But, yes, BOTH are approved as the best treatments for PTSD by the World Health Organization. Also approved by the Department of Defense and many other organizations that are pretty conservative in their recommendations and analysis of research.
Have you had experience with EMDR with chronic/complex PTSD? I have CPTSD and I found that it didn't help, as yes there were specific memories, but all the vague emotions weren't touched. it worked on my simple trauma in teenhood, but not the most pressing trauma. Have you found this to happen a lot? As well, have you ever treated someone with this therapy who has aphantasia? I attempted it, and the visualization didn't work at all due to that.
I experienced great relief with this technique. It helped much more than talking about it because it relieved my tendency to self judge. I wasn't told why I was doing the movements, so my skepticism didn't intervene. Thanks to my therapist who helped alleviate my symptoms. After many years of working on those problems, the paradigm shift in techniques helped quiet my thoughts. Talking just led to more talking.
I would pay you all exactly one happy face emoji if you did a video on narcolepsy. I have it with cataplexy (since about sophmore year in hs) and it's always so difficult trying to explain it precisely to people like my folks or a professor. y'all do such an amazing job breaking down topics and it'd be so cool hearing your take on it. It's pretty interesting stuff. between the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, lucid dreams, insomnia, and constantly hitting thr floor during a good laugh! But yeah, one (maybe two) happy face emojis, take it or leave it!
John Shirley ~ I have Hypersomnia which is even more difficult for people to understand. Since I’m not collapsing, like you with Narcolepsy, people tend to think that I am lazy, depressed, or don’t have a good sleep schedule. But, the truth is that no one knows why people get Hypersomnia and there isn’t a cure. Most days I have to sleep for around 14 hours or more, and I’m sleepy when I’m awake. This has been going on for about 10 years (starting in my 50’s) and it has completely destroyed my life.
Have you tried a TCM doctor? I didn't have narcolepsy, I had chronic fatigue, which meant I had to pull over while driving to take naps in order to not fall asleep at the wheel. It also meant I didn't want to do anything because I knew I would soon need to sleep again, which led to depression. The cause of chronic fatigue is not well understood and it took me years to find TCM... I got a diagnosis that showed me how my body was out of balance, and I was finally able to take the right Medecine that helped me to heal my body and GET ENERGY AGAIN. It was pretty FKING awesome. So try get a TCM doctor to diagnose you, maybe you can start to rebalance your body that way and heal whatever is causing the narcolepsy.
For years I’ve noticed that if I move my eyes from left to right while I’m trying to go to sleep, I fall asleep more quickly. Try it. Let me know if it works for you, too.
Brit, this was very well researched and as an EMDR trained therapist, I agree with almost every single point you made, but there is one thing I need to point out. It's true that EMDR is not more effective than the alternative therapy modes, but it works faster. You didn't mention that, and for someone suffering from trauma, that makes a huge difference. For all scenarios, whether it be a one time trauma like a car accident or assault, or complex long term trauma like childhood abuse or being a war prisoner, EMDR always works faster. Look it up. For single occurance traumas, EMDR can work with a few sessions compared to months if using the other therapy modes.
Agree! That's why my dr and therapist recommended it, because it offered the fastest relief. I wish they would've highlighted this point because it is literally the whole reason I and most people I know who use emdr, do this therapy over another.
"It's true that EMDR is not more effective than the alternative therapy modes, but it works faster." You are so wrong...EMDR beats the hell out of everything because it IS MORE EFFECTIVE!!! I have had PTSD for years until I tried EMDR....Gone in 12 sessions. I was in therapy for years with no results....What you said is malpractice....Ask a vet about therapies. You have no idea.
EMDR is great, but a lot of CPTSD suriviors in the comments (like me) are mentioning that yes, it can help with certain memories- but when there are whole years you cant remember but are terrified of, or if you have aphantasia (me) or really chronic stuff where hitting certain memories wouldn't stop it, it isn't a miracle cure. it helped me with my teenhood 'smaller' traumas, but it couldn't even scratch my complex childhood trauma, as i have such bad memory and i have aphantasia.
@@wilsmith6551 Pretty sure she has an idea, given she is an EMDR Therapist. Moreover, she's in agreement with the scholarly evidence that is / isn't out there. As per the video (and research), we simply do not know WHY it is as effective as it is and given the confines how what we do know, we cannot state what is better and what isn't. That's what they were referring to, not that it doesn't work...
EMDR has changed my life. I'm diagnosed with Complex PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder. I was able to regain custody of my 2 children and stop using drugs because of this. I had a horrible addiction to Opana (opiates) and because of this, lost custody of my children. I worked with the same therapist for months, doing EMDR and i was able to reprocess many of the most painful memories in my life. I have been sober off of opiates since June of 2014, without a single relapse.
The orientation theory has some fascinating support: Memory and location are intertwined at the most basic level. They are actually recognized and coded by where they occurred. You have "place cells" in your brain that code memories according to their physical location in space. These cells record your head and eye orientation, and are arranged on a hexagonal grid. Your eyes ALSO have a hexagonal grid: the mosaic of cones and rods. A man named Jason Padgett suffered a traumatic brain injury. Afterwards, he was able to perceive his low-level visual processing all of the time. He sees the world as objects arranged in hexagonal grids. It seems highly plausible that your brain is simply organizing the direct neurological input of your eyes, factoring in your head orientation, and storing the results as a series of interlocking hexagonal coordinates in your place cells that correlate with the hexagonal input of your rod and cone mosaic. EMDR could hypothetically work by scrambling and recoding the locational information about your traumatic memories. Since location serves as a primary gateway to memory, changing the locational information about the memory could recode it at the most basic level. It may work by changing the content of the memory. Or it could work by losing access to the memory's gateway, like the way computers "delete" a file simply by forgetting where it is stored, not by actually erasing all the bits.
Simply being in a safe place with a safe person and unpacking the ptsd memories is healing. Which has to be done to "make" emdr "work". --- spoken by a survivor of ptsd
I believe that. I think therapists don't try hard enough to build that trust or they just don't understand that in some cases they have to go above and beyond to make that connection. They sometimes act scared to get close to a client when I truly believe it's needed to heal.
Interesting to know about it... I had depression once and I remember one time that I moved my eyes like that to check something. I was feeling weird when I looked at one side (at random) and so I felt fear out of nowhere. I realized that the fear sensation was happening because of my eye movement, so I did the side-to-side move and the fear was raising up as my eyes moved. It made no sense to me then and today it doesn't work anymore.
My therapist one day was explaining EMDR and she was writing on her note pad while talking. While she was talking looking down at her notes she moved her fingers back and forth to show the technique. She didn't know it but I was watching her fingers and immediately felt a calmness come over my entire body. She never knew but I'm going to tell her about it. We weren't even doing a legit session and if I could already feel that then that's amazing to me. The mind is powerful and can do alot.
I would like to see this updated or expanded. Many say that the bilateral stimulation is the most important aspect of EMDR, walking, tapping, and even alternating side to side sounds work just as well. Also these interventions can vary in length of time much more than 15 seconds. This has popularized lightbars but even more so, thera-tapping devices that use a vibration that alternates between hands. It can be as complex as multiple sessions with highly structured interviewing and eyes following movements or it can be as simple as taking an overwhelmed client for a walk while they talk.
There are different ways to conduct it. Some use a machine, some just use a hand. Some involve tapping you on the knee. All that matters is that you're getting them to look from side to side.
Shapiro herself has said that if she named it again, she would get rid of the eye movement part. You don't have to do the eye movements at all, but you do need a bilateral stimulation such as having buzzing hand beads in each hand that alternate sides. I have done EMDR therapy for a very traumatic incident that was giving me PTSD 30 years after the event. EMDR works wonders. Light years better than any talk therapy.
I've done EMDR in therapy. I feel like part of why it helped me was 1. This was the first time I got to share the details of my trauma and have my feelings validated. 2. It desensitized me to thinking about those memories by bringing them up in a safe supportive place, rather than ruminating alone. It's hard to say how much the eye movement helped me vs. how much simply being able to share those things for the first time helped me. Talk therapy needs to be compared to talk therapy + EMDR in future studies.
Ive started keeping a journal, I write out bad memories but do little drawings of familiar characters or things i like off to side of the written words. thats been helping.
Thanks for the video. I'm seeing a lot of comments by people who have undergone or still undergo EMDR therapy, and I have a question for you. I've heard of cases where EMDR treated patients have experienced quite intense to severe episodes of emotional stress a short while after an (each?) EMDR session, sort of like the brain/memory popping it's memories and emotions into place. Has anyone of you ever experienced that? Does it come with relief after a short while, or is it something that wears off during the duration of the therapy?
For me those very intense emotions were present DURING the therapy, your therapist is NEVER supposed to LEAVE you feeling horrible, they're supposed to 'bring you back' from the experience and into a relaxed state so that you will be able to leave without still thinking about it. If they did let you leave while you're still processing, that's probably not the best. My therapist said I might have thoughts come up but they shouldn't be as extreme. it makes me think that those cases weren't completed properly. I felt dizzy after sessions sometimes, but more in a euphoric kind of way. during sessions I could be bawling my eyes out, then two minutes later laughing. It was a really interesting experience My therapist says reactions are different with everyone, and any kind of reaction is OK. also colors were far more vibrant for a day after a session. your PTSD is still there after, but it made me able to cope and go out in public without panic attacks or anxiety attacks. it took maybe 8-10 sessions ranging from 1.5 hours to 2 hours each. I guess a disclaimer would be that it doesn't work for everyone, and that's understandable :)
well the movement does something. it takes away the need to go into complex discussions about your problems and gives you something to focus on. there is a reason why it's still used so much. wouldn't be if it didn't work.
I ended up in EMDR for a very goal oriented 6 months of therapy for some stuff that I just wasn't getting results for in classical CBT therapy and was getting more and more frustrated. On a whim I ended up with a very good EMDR therapist (didn't know anything about it, just that I needed something different--I also didn't know I was dealing with certain specific traumas) and it ended up being very good for me. I think that being "as effective" as other PTSD therapies doesn't invalidate it, rather, I think it's a good thing for different people and for whom different types of therapies may be more or less effective and as it turned out, EMDR was what worked for me.
I've never heard anyone actually say what is meant by "make sense of" or "process" or "reprocess" with regard to memories or events (or memories of events). These phrases seem to be exceedingly important, but never really talked about without a wink and a nod and a little "you know what I mean, right, yeah, sure you do". As I understand it, processing is something that computers do, not human minds. Human minds do actually recall things, as we've all had that experience. But how would I know if I am in the act of reprocessing something (or if I've ever done it in the past)? I guess I'm looking for an explanation or description that doesn't rely on a metaphor as flawed as the "brain as a computer" metaphor. To be clear, the part of that metaphor that I have issue with is that, as a person using a brain to experience the world, all I have access to is my experience. I don't have any way to relate that to a computer, as I have no idea what a computer experiences, or if, as seems most likely, the computer does not experience at all.
What you are looking for is a single answer to the question of how does therapy work and that is utterly impossible, because all theory aside we don't know everything about how or why therapy works, just that it does; but I'll see if I can help you understand a bit. Keep in mind this is overgeneralizations and may not apply to every scenario. What people usually mean by "processing," "reprocessing," or "making sense of" is the idea that we can take an even out of our memory like a file in a filing cabinet and review it either as a professional or with the help of a professional and correct the errors then put it away again. As though we're having an accountant review our taxes that we absolutely butchered last year, despite our best efforts, because the building was on fire and we actually had no chance of getting it right. You have to remember that when we have a trauma response the body releases adrenaline and cortisol. These stress hormones increase our likelihood of immediate survival but have long term problematic effects on our brain including but not limited to making our hippocampus fail to do it's job correctly. It helps if we think of the hippocampus as a camera whose job it is to record memories, attach identifying information and a date and then store them. It is basically drunk on stress hormones and can hyper focus on the wrong thing, get information wrong, or fail to press record all together. We find that people have memories that don't age or feel like they are happening all over again. Strange things that associate to that event that can make them feel overwhelmed even when they seem minor or inconsequential to the overall trauma. Or they may have no memory of it at all. When I process with my clients what I do is go with them through what they remember (or sometimes what they don't) and look for aspects that have been stored incorrectly. We talk about thoughts associated with those memories and try to examine them logically and correct thinking errors, and most importantly we try to remove the sensitivity to triggers that cause re-experiencing and anxiety. This looks different for everyone so we refer to it as "processing" their trauma or "reprocessing" their trauma or "making sense" of what has happened to them. Hopefully these words have more clarity in this context. This process can also take months or years of periodically revisiting these issues and talking about the long term effects on their life. Someone can lose entire aspects of their life from triggers and that can be almost as traumatizing if not more so than the initial trauma. I have found that using bilateral stimulation helps people to "reprocess" events more quickly. What I feel would have taken 5 sessions can be accomplished in 1; though this is purely me guessing at numbers from experience not citing facts or sources. Though I can say that I and my organization use screening tools to track the level of symptoms people are experiencing and I have had people who've had little to no improvement after traditional reprocessing make major improvements when we added BLS. Also, I have done BLS myself in my own therapy and found relief from somatic symptoms regarding trauma that I've, in theory, fully processed in therapy before.
@@stephanieshaw7405 Thanks for the detailed response! My comment was from 3+years ago, and I've learned quite a lot in the intervening time. I still think the computer metaphor is more flawed than it is useful, since the computer processing something from memory is generally thought of as changing the data being processed, while not changing the computer itself.
When I did EMDR therapy they used hand buzzers because the light bar gave me headaches. Either way it brought up memories I hadn't thought about in a long time and helped me and the therapist connect some of the dots and work through it. When you better understand the trauma, why it happened, and what it did to you it can help SO much. EMDR did this for me and has been the only therapy to truly reduce my flashbacks. That being said, the way my therapist talked to me about it, it is something you want to do once you've hit your plateau in cognitive behavioral therapy because some of symptoms can get worse initially and you need to have the tools to work through it. I know remembering some of those events was extremely stressful to my mind and body, but like I said, the order the memories came in helped make the connections that help me to this day.
Ive been a practicing clinician for 20 years and just added EMDR to my methodologies over the last year. I'm not sure how it works so well but it has improved the tx outcomes for my clients significantly.
I have only gone to one session so far and my panick attacks, anxiety, and depersonalization are already starting to decrease alot I look at life alot more positively, I highly recommend it
For me it didn't work. I even got back into that state I tried to lose with EMDR. Now on with actually watching the video, but I just wanted to say this first
Well, whenever I talk about touchy subjects with anyone, my eyes dart around like I'm looking for an escape route, so I can see how physically controlling the anxiousness by focusing on something and having repetitive slow eye movements might carry over emotionally. No reason to crap on something if it works. The goal is to help people. Just means we have to study it more.
EMDR changed my life a few years ago where I couldn't go out in public without having horrible panic attacks, now I can go grocery shopping and shop alone without having to have my mother with me. Even just thinking about EMDR makes me feel good now to be honest. I know some people won't be susceptible, just like some people don't benefit from therapy, it took around 10 sessions 1.5 - 2 hours each time. I'm not sure about price because mine was covered by insurance, but it can probably be easily googled if you're really interested. It can also get really intense emotion wise, because you have to 'go' to that place of PTSD so PLEASE make sure it's done by a professional psychologist or therapist that was trained in EMDR :)
I'd done talk therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, etc. for over a decade for PTSD with little to no effect. Since I was desperate, I decided to try EMDR. I was extremely, extremely skeptical going into it, but after a few sessions I'd already noticed a big difference. Going into that office was one of the best decisions of my life. To anyone else who is struggling with PTSD and looking for options, I'd highly recommend taking a look into EMDR.
My therapist is using a combination of EMDR and CBT (cognitive behavior therapy) and , for me, it's done wonders. The memories are still there but with this combination, again, for me, the events no longer have control over me.
I'm going through EMDR therapy at the moment, and how it works seems to have more to do with the connection it makes between the two brain hemispheres. Lemme explain: the first session we tried it, I was incapable of concentrating on the memory AND follow her fingers with my eyes at the same time. I have problems with my working memory and executive function anyway (for reasons not yet diagnosed), so after a few tries, she suggested I close my eyes and she would tap my knees instead. I was a little suspicious at first, but even after just that first session (and we were FAR from finished) I later noticed that I wasn't stressing out in the car like I usually did. Even my boyfriend noticed. He kept repeating it, like he couldn't believe it. Now it's been 5 or 6 and I'm actually starting to drive short distances (though I'm waiting for us to trade our manual car for an automatic because executive function issues also make driving difficult etc.) So it *does* work, way better than anything else I've tried anyway. Though I guess the thought association process could also have something to do with it, though I'm sure how given that my previous therapies failed in that sense.
If you're gonna start with talking about "connections between the brain hemispheres", I have to point out that you haven't specified any reason this helps. Does it connect a region responsible for some aspect of emotional regulation? Increase the size of the amygdala? This isn't a reason. Therapy isn't something you can easily connect with neurological changes. It would need a lot of collaboration to demonstrate unique neurological changes with emdr compared with controls or other talking therapies which are related to processing of traumatic memories.
After a serious car accident I couldn't pull out of my driveway without having an anxiety attack. Until EMDR! Also, my therapist gave me an EMDR CD with bilateral sounds to use while studying. I went from a C student to an A student in 1/2 a semester!
I did EMDR with a therapist who specializes in it. Waved a pencil around. Didn’t really help. Went to a different therapist who was a somatic experiencing specialist that also did EMDR. He didn’t do the eye version tho. Once he gave me a headset with left and right sounds. And most of the time he gave me two buzzers to hold. One in the left and one in the right hand that would buzz alternately. The buzzers worked the best for me.
Even if it isn't better, having more than one method to tackle the problems can be really beneficial. A person that doesn't respond to one treatment, may have success using another.
Going through it right now. what I notice is that normally with those memories it's like you're experiencing again. With EMDR you are constantly put in the here and now. The therapist makes sure that you're not following a pattern with changing the movements or let you count backwards to overload the working memory even more. The more you do this the more you are able to distance yourself from that memory. It will always be painful, but the complex emotions attached to the memory dull. And it is less likely you will be surprised with that persistent unwanted recall. It may not work for everyone, I don't know. But at least I am happy that I don't have to live my life constantly on alert by the looks of it.
that is a lil bit like meditation where you focus on your breath... but here your focussing on a finger, i did the same thing sometimes before i know it cuz i noticed that it consumes your whole concentration and hinder you focussing on bad stuff... like meditation also helps against the bad stuff ... just in a different, harder but... i guess more beneficial way
I suffered from the effects of PTSD for 6 years, and the various therapies they put me through only ended up making things far, far worse - I was so bad, I could barely function, and I couldn't look after myself. Then I pushed to have EMDR therapy, and after 8 months I felt well enough to function better. I'm nowhere near what I was before the PTSD, but at least I'm functional
I certainly believe there is a connection between memory and eye movement. I noticed back in high school that very often when my mind needs to dig for information my eyes roll up and to the side like I'm trying to look at the back left of my own head. Always to the left.
It's not 'all about' the eye movements, or the bilateral stimulation. There is a lot more going on during EMDR treatment than a therapist moving a finger from side to side. If the EMDR did not do what you wanted after some serious effort and some serious attempts, it's okay to consider working with a different therapist. Your new therapist would be happy for the opportunity; it's important that you give the new try its own legitimate chance. Also: just generally don't give up! Your experience of life is worth whatever it takes in order for that experience to be a pleasant and fulfilling one!
I've been day REM'ing for years. It's not necessary for it to be a traumatic event. Intentionally triggering REM eye movement triggers your brains ability to change its wiring. While it happens every night on it's own, doing so yourself can dramatically increase your recall of things you are studying, or improve your ability to perform a task you are practicing just as readily as handling a traumatic event. It's similar to meditation if you do it right, but takes way less time.
I find that I tend to move my eyes back and forth whenever I'm trying to vividly visualize anything, particularly so if my eyes are closed or if I'm in a dark room.
I've actually gone through this type of therapy for my PTSD. Obviously this is anecdotal to the entirety of research, but it worked really well for me. Also it wasn't just eye movement, there was also auditory and tactile parts too. But it all came back to the left/right movement or oreintation.
I’d be interested in a conversation about how this also works when dealing with general depression and anxiety. Because I feel like it could be an opportunity to examine the mechanism in another setting and potentially isolate what’s going on. Really though we honestly need more brain imaging when it comes to studies like this. It’s easy to forget the brain is an organ and we don’t use diagnostic tools enough in combination with psychology to get the full picture.
You got part of this video wrong. The therapy can involve tracking alternating visual stimuli, physical stimuli, and or auditory stimuli. I have had it, and it worked very well.
I'm surprised that they didn't mention anything about pros and cons of EMDR. From what they discussed in the video, it seems like EMDR is pretty low risk, with nearly no side effects. Is this actually the case? If so, there is something to be said for a treatment that does not have any negative impacts on a patient.
She left out the part that it can be extremely retraumatizing for us and actually end up making us much worse (yes, that happened to me). I have since read that for those of us with CPTSD (rather than just PTSD) EMDR is often recommended against for that reason. There are other factors that make CPTSD complicated with EMDR but the retraumatizing effects is a huge one and it is negligent of her to have ignored it.
Sounds like remembering with some sort of stimulant requiring the brain to absorb new information will help PTSD. Whether it's the mimicing of the eye movements associated with a new situation (the finger movement), or the re-introduction of the trama.
I've done both and found EMDR to be a better fit for me. Being able to think over the memory while doing the eye movements was much less distressing than talking about it over and over and over again, maybe because doing the eye movements was a good distraction to keep me from feeling the whole force of my emotions.
How about Tapping? I don't see how it can help and don't know the exact scientific name for it. Any therapy that lessens PTSD issues is good. Thanks for sharing!
How about the research being done into PTSD treatment with MDMA and psychotherapy? Apparently its success has been phenomenal. It's talked about on the MAPS podcast.
I don't buy it. Until they test moving eyes with a light against keeping your eyes still and having a moving light. This doesn't really test against the placebo effect.
HAD TRIED THIS WITHOUT KNOWING THIS THERAPY ON MY OWN, VERY LONG BACK, IT RELIVES NECK PAIN AND EASES DIGESTION, SO WE FEEL RELAXED, IN A WAY EVERYONE WILL HAVE TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE IN THIER LIFE.
I did this therapy and it definately helped me. 7 months of therapy helped me get over 13 years of PTSD! I have seen countless therapists and this was the only treatment that helped significantly.
I've heard that each time you remember an experience, you're also remembering the last time(s) you remembered it. So remembering something deliberately while you're in a peaceful place, like the woods, can imprint some of the feeling of that place on the memory in the future. Trying to block the memory puts further stress on you, and makes you associate even more trauma with that memory. Not sure how much research has been done in this effect.
Steve Davis I believe that this is similar to what is told in the video, the connecting of the traumatic experience to positive thoughts, or in this case, positive experiences. I think the effect would be quite similar.
great for getting over emotional baggage, awful for eyewitness testimony
I had EMDR today, it was so weird and afterwards it made me feel light and relaxed and much more aware of my surroundings and thought process. It helped a lot. I was skeptical of it but it's so weird how it works.
The time it takes to work is what's revolutionary! My friend had this done 3 times and no longer suffers ptsd.
This was after 6 years of trauma whatever cbt that didn't help her AT ALL.
Me too!!
Significant difference.
@@geoattoronto This should be where all therapy is headed....I have seen major miracles with this.....
@@wilsmith6551 and yet it doesn't work with many people. a lot of people in the comments stated it didn't work at all for CPTSD, as this is not single events, but a whole 10 to 15 years of these events, some of which you can't even remember anymore. this can be helpful for single time trauma, but saying its a miracle cure for everyone is just wrong and ignoring complex ptsd survivors.
@@Slythegirl123 CPTSD is a longer piece by piece approach, and has worked for a lot of people. I also recommend brain spotting which seems to be more effective. But I stay by miraculous
It's not stupid or a placebo. Whatever is going on with it, it does work for dealing with traumatic memories. It doesn't make them go away. It's not a miracle one-session cure. But it can make life liveable again.
What makes you so sure?
As Boxer said, it's the desensitising that is effective. Additional stimuli (sounds, lights tapping etc.) play little to no role in the effectiveness of outcome.
I think commenters here are not trained therapists and do not realize how hard it is to treat trauma. Why do you think EMDR is so heavily researched and controversial, which it is, it is finally approved by all medical insurance companies and the VA. Like she said, research proves it works more than no treatment or placebo, it works equally well as cognitive therapy that does the desensitizing without the bilateral stimulation part. What I will say is that some research shows EMDR working faster than cognitive therapy--so same results but much faster. That would be helpful for people tormented by memories of being assualted or watching someone die. Does that make sense?
The trained clinicians of EMDR are routinely invited to large disasters to help survivors, that's what no one likes to talk about, the fact that this community of therapists are helping people heal from horrible horrible events.
Isabell Xie I'm a psychologist - So yes, commenters can be trained professionals! :)
I totally agree, it doesn't make your trauma 'go away' it's still there, but it made me able to do many more things that I wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. I don't care if it's 'placebo' or 'the eye movements' don't do anything for someone else, but they worked for ME. I am so thankful that they did work for me too!
As an emergency service worker who started suffering fairly severe PTSD and had experienced various rounds of trauma focused CBT without any enduring benefit (more like symptom control, rather than curative IMO) I was finally referred for EMDR (headphone click method). The traumas presented each other sequentially over a series of sessions. In each case the memories became more vivid, surpressed memory was released and details seemingly forgotten were filled out, then each memory faded, greyed out and were viewed from an increasingly distant perspective before the next popped up. After 12 tough sessions over 3 months I was done, discharged. 2.5 years hence I have had no return of symptoms of PTSD although the other emotional and behavioural consequences have only just been resolved. My take on EMDR? I don't care how it works, it is spooky brain magic that has undoubtedly saved my life. Thanks. Sorry for the essay.
I was a bit skeptical of emdr. After my first session all I could say to describe it was that it was weird. But in a good way. My mind went places that surprised me. I used a hand held thing in each hand that would alternate vibrations from one hand to the other. I think the key is bilateral movement to help process.
I have been in therapy for 9 years and emdr was unlike any type of session I had before.
I had a similar experience holding little vibrating things in each hand and had a headset that alternated beeps in each ear in sync with the handheld devices.
No eye movement was involved, but it definitely "disloged" some emotional trauma, suggesting the bilateral stimulation explanation to me.
This was then alternated with more conventional therapy to help correctly process the thoughts and feelings brought up by the "EMDR" therapy. (Though, with no eye movement, that may be a bad term for the therapy)
My therapist has also been having me use the buzzers in the hand. My diagnosis isn’t PTSD, it’s Depression and Anxiety with a history of emotional and verbal abuse, but the buzzers make it a lot easier for me to talk about memories that would normally induce a panic attack if I tried to talk about them normally. The way my therapist explained EMDR was that it mimicked REM sleep. Idk if that’s real, and this video kinda confirms my suspicions that it’s not really cut and dry, but I’m in the camp of “I don’t care how it works as long as it works”. And it has been working for me.
Claire Kuhlman I'm glad it's working for you!
DynamicWorlds they probably used eye movement because that's how it started. Bmdr doesn't sound as cool either lol
Just remember not to dismiss the sceptics. This treatment doesn't work for everyone. I have PTSD and did this and it was just weird. All it did was kick the memories up in the air and make everything worse. I benefited from more talking therapies as I never got the chance to talk about what I went through and that helped a lot with combating it. Don't just think this treatment is effective and a cure-all for everyone because different people prefer different therapies.
I have the same experience. And then they say it's normal for it to get worse first and that it will get better after a while. But after more than 10 sessions I just felt worse than ever and it became unbearable. My trauma's were all worse and I can almost say that I gained a new one in the form of the EMDR sessions.
My theory for this is because it doesn't work well on complex trauma's because those do NOT have a simple single memory to focus on to soften the whole blow of that experience being repeated over and over again.
Same thing happened to me.
I agree too with Melora Carabas. I have CPTSD (rather than just PTSD) from childhood abuse. I spent so much time arguing with my therapist that there was not just 'one time' to go back too. Also, some of what was done to me was done so early in life I only have the fuzziest senses of it (smells, sounds, sights) rather than stored-memory stories of it, making it difficult/impossible to do the steps required for EMDR.
I am finding an embodied therapy, in my case, sensory motor psychotherapy, to be way more effective than EMDR.
@@survivedandthriving i have cptsd as well and they called this ART therapy where I got it. I also have aphantasia, so all of the visualizations didn't work for me. It worked on one of my more 'simple' traumas, but it would not work on my recurrent childhood trauma.
@@Slythegirl123 Thank you for the supportive, constructive comment. I am sorry to hear that you have had circumstances in your life that mean that you understand what I am talking about.
Sending you good-energy thoughts on your healing journey.
@@survivedandthriving you too!! i'm currently going through talk therapy and uncovering my unintentional coping mechanisms like age regression- good luck to you, i hope you find/have gotten the support you need, and I hope everything goes well!
This video might need to be updated... EMDR just beat CBT (our best treatment) in treating depression.... Depression not PTSD. And there is newer studies for the treatment of PTSD as well. I am an EMDR practioner and it has changed my practice no doubt about it :) Thanks for bringing awareness!
I was thinking the exact same thing I am not a practitioner but I hope to be one day and I am currently on year two of my EMDR art journey using complex PTSD as my focus I have found that EMDR is better than CBT in the way that it brings up repressed memories better than any other therapy I have tried I have multiple mental health issues though lol I love your comment there's not a whole lot of comments on here showing that it needs to be updated 🥰 and everyone of your patients appreciates everything you do 🥰
Now I'm just moving my eyes around and I FEEL THEM. So weird. Like you normally don't feel your eyes, but when you start thinking about it, it's the only thing that you can feel. That is some mindfullness concentration practice right there.
You can also tilt your eyes inside your skull. Do this: close your eyes, imagine the line that is the horizon. Slowly tilt your head from side to side.
If you can't feel it doing that, then get to a mirror you can stand right up against. Look yourself in the eye. Imagine the horizon (or the line of the floor intersecting the wall behind you). Then tilt your head slowly, while watching your eyes.
ahgflyguy I totally thought you were crazy until I tried this in front of a mirror. I had always thought when I tilted my head the world just seemed straight because my brain was counteracting the tilt, but I was definitely under the impression that we didn't have muscles that could tilt our eyes in that way. Thanks for the mind-blow, dude.
ahgflyguy woah that's insane! I didn't exactly know what you meant, but when I looked in the mirror, I saw it! It's almost like it's a gyroscope camera stabilizer. I feel like I have a ton of questions now... like how does it do that but we can't consciously move our eyes that way on purpose? How do our eyes know what's upright? I just... wow
TBH, tons of these seem like so random without any theories backing it up and the only one backing them up are like, oh smell ur middle finger, since you always stick it up in front of people you hate, u can smell the scent of vengeance, now you have increased ur strength and can fight supervillains, and eventually seems like a longer story for hypnosis or a placebo.
yes i get you i tried before you mentioned i thought i was the only one trying and noticing
One of my therapists did something similar, where I wore headphones which played a tone in alternating ears for about 15 seconds, a break to discuss, then repeat. Really effective for me.
Good to hear :)
What is exactly the idea behind the alternating sounds? How did it help relieve stress?
Nee It is the same principle with the EMDR eye-movement but done with sound, hearing involved instead of sight. It can also be applied with touch (alternating tapping on the client's knees for example)
COMBINE ALL THREE AND WE CURE PTSD FOREVER! Please PM me when my Nobel Prize is ready.
Nee It doesn't play much of a role in effectiveness - it's more to do with exposure therapy, ie processing the event over and over until your brain essentially becomes desensitized to the trauma. Additional sounds or tapping or lights etc. aren't proven to make a difference.
Hi: I'm glad you got to the conclusion that EMDR is a highly effective means of therapy for PTSD. It is! It is also a comprehensive therapy technique that does not rely on the eye movements - that is the piece that gets attention because it seems "weird." I explain more in my UA-cam video "How Does EMDR Works"
As a trauma therapist, I believe EMDR is incredibly effective and I am very happy it is a therapy I can offer my clients. Some clients don't like the eye movements (I use a light bar, not my finger), so they can use tappers (held in the hands which alternate a buzzing between left and right hands) or headphones (alternating sounds). All of these methods of bilateral stimulation of the brain seem to do the trick!
I also do trauma-informed CBT, although the EMDR seems to help more rapidly and produce more comprehensive results. But, yes, BOTH are approved as the best treatments for PTSD by the World Health Organization. Also approved by the Department of Defense and many other organizations that are pretty conservative in their recommendations and analysis of research.
Have you had experience with EMDR with chronic/complex PTSD? I have CPTSD and I found that it didn't help, as yes there were specific memories, but all the vague emotions weren't touched. it worked on my simple trauma in teenhood, but not the most pressing trauma. Have you found this to happen a lot?
As well, have you ever treated someone with this therapy who has aphantasia? I attempted it, and the visualization didn't work at all due to that.
I experienced great relief with this technique. It helped much more than talking about it because it relieved my tendency to self judge. I wasn't told why I was doing the movements, so my skepticism didn't intervene. Thanks to my therapist who helped alleviate my symptoms. After many years of working on those problems, the paradigm shift in techniques helped quiet my thoughts. Talking just led to more talking.
I would pay you all exactly one happy face emoji if you did a video on narcolepsy. I have it with cataplexy (since about sophmore year in hs) and it's always so difficult trying to explain it precisely to people like my folks or a professor. y'all do such an amazing job breaking down topics and it'd be so cool hearing your take on it. It's pretty interesting stuff. between the hallucinations, sleep paralysis, lucid dreams, insomnia, and constantly hitting thr floor during a good laugh! But yeah, one (maybe two) happy face emojis, take it or leave it!
Same hat!
John Shirley ~ I have Hypersomnia which is even more difficult for people to understand. Since I’m not collapsing, like you with Narcolepsy, people tend to think that I am lazy, depressed, or don’t have a good sleep schedule. But, the truth is that no one knows why people get Hypersomnia and there isn’t a cure. Most days I have to sleep for around 14 hours or more, and I’m sleepy when I’m awake. This has been going on for about 10 years (starting in my 50’s) and it has completely destroyed my life.
Have you tried a TCM doctor? I didn't have narcolepsy, I had chronic fatigue, which meant I had to pull over while driving to take naps in order to not fall asleep at the wheel. It also meant I didn't want to do anything because I knew I would soon need to sleep again, which led to depression. The cause of chronic fatigue is not well understood and it took me years to find TCM... I got a diagnosis that showed me how my body was out of balance, and I was finally able to take the right Medecine that helped me to heal my body and GET ENERGY AGAIN. It was pretty FKING awesome. So try get a TCM doctor to diagnose you, maybe you can start to rebalance your body that way and heal whatever is causing the narcolepsy.
Sci show psych is amazing! The amount of times you guys helped me find sources for my uni essays is unreal! keep up the amazing work!
For years I’ve noticed that if I move my eyes from left to right while I’m trying to go to sleep, I fall asleep more quickly. Try it. Let me know if it works for you, too.
thanks for the suggestion! will definitely try it out
Brit, this was very well researched and as an EMDR trained therapist, I agree with almost every single point you made, but there is one thing I need to point out. It's true that EMDR is not more effective than the alternative therapy modes, but it works faster. You didn't mention that, and for someone suffering from trauma, that makes a huge difference. For all scenarios, whether it be a one time trauma like a car accident or assault, or complex long term trauma like childhood abuse or being a war prisoner, EMDR always works faster. Look it up. For single occurance traumas, EMDR can work with a few sessions compared to months if using the other therapy modes.
Completely agree!!
Agree! That's why my dr and therapist recommended it, because it offered the fastest relief. I wish they would've highlighted this point because it is literally the whole reason I and most people I know who use emdr, do this therapy over another.
"It's true that EMDR is not more effective than the alternative therapy modes, but it works faster." You are so wrong...EMDR beats the hell out of everything because it IS MORE EFFECTIVE!!! I have had PTSD for years until I tried EMDR....Gone in 12 sessions. I was in therapy for years with no results....What you said is malpractice....Ask a vet about therapies. You have no idea.
EMDR is great, but a lot of CPTSD suriviors in the comments (like me) are mentioning that yes, it can help with certain memories- but when there are whole years you cant remember but are terrified of, or if you have aphantasia (me) or really chronic stuff where hitting certain memories wouldn't stop it, it isn't a miracle cure. it helped me with my teenhood 'smaller' traumas, but it couldn't even scratch my complex childhood trauma, as i have such bad memory and i have aphantasia.
@@wilsmith6551 Pretty sure she has an idea, given she is an EMDR Therapist. Moreover, she's in agreement with the scholarly evidence that is / isn't out there. As per the video (and research), we simply do not know WHY it is as effective as it is and given the confines how what we do know, we cannot state what is better and what isn't. That's what they were referring to, not that it doesn't work...
EMDR has changed my life. I'm diagnosed with Complex PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder. I was able to regain custody of my 2 children and stop using drugs because of this. I had a horrible addiction to Opana (opiates) and because of this, lost custody of my children. I worked with the same therapist for months, doing EMDR and i was able to reprocess many of the most painful memories in my life. I have been sober off of opiates since June of 2014, without a single relapse.
still going strong..?
The orientation theory has some fascinating support:
Memory and location are intertwined at the most basic level. They are actually recognized and coded by where they occurred. You have "place cells" in your brain that code memories according to their physical location in space. These cells record your head and eye orientation, and are arranged on a hexagonal grid. Your eyes ALSO have a hexagonal grid: the mosaic of cones and rods.
A man named Jason Padgett suffered a traumatic brain injury. Afterwards, he was able to perceive his low-level visual processing all of the time. He sees the world as objects arranged in hexagonal grids. It seems highly plausible that your brain is simply organizing the direct neurological input of your eyes, factoring in your head orientation, and storing the results as a series of interlocking hexagonal coordinates in your place cells that correlate with the hexagonal input of your rod and cone mosaic.
EMDR could hypothetically work by scrambling and recoding the locational information about your traumatic memories. Since location serves as a primary gateway to memory, changing the locational information about the memory could recode it at the most basic level. It may work by changing the content of the memory. Or it could work by losing access to the memory's gateway, like the way computers "delete" a file simply by forgetting where it is stored, not by actually erasing all the bits.
would walking in the woods while thinking be better than plain old emdr? Seeing as that's how the original researcher noticed it
It's worth a try. Just being in nature is healthy. Im going to try it today.
The setting wasn't the breakthrough. It was that she noticed the movement that was created when she thought about traumatic memories.
Simply being in a safe place with a safe person and unpacking the ptsd memories is healing. Which has to be done to "make" emdr "work".
--- spoken by a survivor of ptsd
I believe that. I think therapists don't try hard enough to build that trust or they just don't understand that in some cases they have to go above and beyond to make that connection. They sometimes act scared to get close to a client when I truly believe it's needed to heal.
Interesting to know about it... I had depression once and I remember one time that I moved my eyes like that to check something. I was feeling weird when I looked at one side (at random) and so I felt fear out of nowhere.
I realized that the fear sensation was happening because of my eye movement, so I did the side-to-side move and the fear was raising up as my eyes moved. It made no sense to me then and today it doesn't work anymore.
Isn’t that just so fascinating?!!
My therapist one day was explaining EMDR and she was writing on her note pad while talking. While she was talking looking down at her notes she moved her fingers back and forth to show the technique. She didn't know it but I was watching her fingers and immediately felt a calmness come over my entire body. She never knew but I'm going to tell her about it. We weren't even doing a legit session and if I could already feel that then that's amazing to me. The mind is powerful and can do alot.
I think my therapist may be a quack... Our sessions are on a movie set in the 1950's
I would like to see this updated or expanded. Many say that the bilateral stimulation is the most important aspect of EMDR, walking, tapping, and even alternating side to side sounds work just as well. Also these interventions can vary in length of time much more than 15 seconds. This has popularized lightbars but even more so, thera-tapping devices that use a vibration that alternates between hands. It can be as complex as multiple sessions with highly structured interviewing and eyes following movements or it can be as simple as taking an overwhelmed client for a walk while they talk.
I had EMDR not for PTSD but for Autism Spectrum stuff....and it was a light bar not a hand
There are different ways to conduct it. Some use a machine, some just use a hand. Some involve tapping you on the knee. All that matters is that you're getting them to look from side to side.
How did it help that? I must research
Shapiro herself has said that if she named it again, she would get rid of the eye movement part. You don't have to do the eye movements at all, but you do need a bilateral stimulation such as having buzzing hand beads in each hand that alternate sides. I have done EMDR therapy for a very traumatic incident that was giving me PTSD 30 years after the event. EMDR works wonders. Light years better than any talk therapy.
I've done EMDR in therapy. I feel like part of why it helped me was 1. This was the first time I got to share the details of my trauma and have my feelings validated. 2. It desensitized me to thinking about those memories by bringing them up in a safe supportive place, rather than ruminating alone. It's hard to say how much the eye movement helped me vs. how much simply being able to share those things for the first time helped me. Talk therapy needs to be compared to talk therapy + EMDR in future studies.
Will now be moving my eyes all the time, regardless of usefulness. Thx Scishow
Ive started keeping a journal, I write out bad memories but do little drawings of familiar characters or things i like off to side of the written words. thats been helping.
Studies suggest there's a link between EMDR and the development of (suggestion-induced) false memories. That would explain a lot about the process.
Thanks for the video. I'm seeing a lot of comments by people who have undergone or still undergo EMDR therapy, and I have a question for you.
I've heard of cases where EMDR treated patients have experienced quite intense to severe episodes of emotional stress a short while after an (each?) EMDR session, sort of like the brain/memory popping it's memories and emotions into place. Has anyone of you ever experienced that? Does it come with relief after a short while, or is it something that wears off during the duration of the therapy?
For me those very intense emotions were present DURING the therapy, your therapist is NEVER supposed to LEAVE you feeling horrible, they're supposed to 'bring you back' from the experience and into a relaxed state so that you will be able to leave without still thinking about it. If they did let you leave while you're still processing, that's probably not the best. My therapist said I might have thoughts come up but they shouldn't be as extreme. it makes me think that those cases weren't completed properly.
I felt dizzy after sessions sometimes, but more in a euphoric kind of way. during sessions I could be bawling my eyes out, then two minutes later laughing. It was a really interesting experience My therapist says reactions are different with everyone, and any kind of reaction is OK. also colors were far more vibrant for a day after a session.
your PTSD is still there after, but it made me able to cope and go out in public without panic attacks or anxiety attacks. it took maybe 8-10 sessions ranging from 1.5 hours to 2 hours each.
I guess a disclaimer would be that it doesn't work for everyone, and that's understandable :)
it isn't always done with eye movement right? they tried it on me with sounds.
i also heard people do it with headphones.
I was told that it can be 2 senses at the same time, not necessarily eyes.
ah okay.
well the movement does something. it takes away the need to go into complex discussions about your problems and gives you something to focus on.
there is a reason why it's still used so much. wouldn't be if it didn't work.
I ended up in EMDR for a very goal oriented 6 months of therapy for some stuff that I just wasn't getting results for in classical CBT therapy and was getting more and more frustrated. On a whim I ended up with a very good EMDR therapist (didn't know anything about it, just that I needed something different--I also didn't know I was dealing with certain specific traumas) and it ended up being very good for me. I think that being "as effective" as other PTSD therapies doesn't invalidate it, rather, I think it's a good thing for different people and for whom different types of therapies may be more or less effective and as it turned out, EMDR was what worked for me.
I've never heard anyone actually say what is meant by "make sense of" or "process" or "reprocess" with regard to memories or events (or memories of events). These phrases seem to be exceedingly important, but never really talked about without a wink and a nod and a little "you know what I mean, right, yeah, sure you do". As I understand it, processing is something that computers do, not human minds. Human minds do actually recall things, as we've all had that experience. But how would I know if I am in the act of reprocessing something (or if I've ever done it in the past)?
I guess I'm looking for an explanation or description that doesn't rely on a metaphor as flawed as the "brain as a computer" metaphor. To be clear, the part of that metaphor that I have issue with is that, as a person using a brain to experience the world, all I have access to is my experience. I don't have any way to relate that to a computer, as I have no idea what a computer experiences, or if, as seems most likely, the computer does not experience at all.
What you are looking for is a single answer to the question of how does therapy work and that is utterly impossible, because all theory aside we don't know everything about how or why therapy works, just that it does; but I'll see if I can help you understand a bit. Keep in mind this is overgeneralizations and may not apply to every scenario. What people usually mean by "processing," "reprocessing," or "making sense of" is the idea that we can take an even out of our memory like a file in a filing cabinet and review it either as a professional or with the help of a professional and correct the errors then put it away again. As though we're having an accountant review our taxes that we absolutely butchered last year, despite our best efforts, because the building was on fire and we actually had no chance of getting it right.
You have to remember that when we have a trauma response the body releases adrenaline and cortisol. These stress hormones increase our likelihood of immediate survival but have long term problematic effects on our brain including but not limited to making our hippocampus fail to do it's job correctly. It helps if we think of the hippocampus as a camera whose job it is to record memories, attach identifying information and a date and then store them. It is basically drunk on stress hormones and can hyper focus on the wrong thing, get information wrong, or fail to press record all together. We find that people have memories that don't age or feel like they are happening all over again. Strange things that associate to that event that can make them feel overwhelmed even when they seem minor or inconsequential to the overall trauma. Or they may have no memory of it at all.
When I process with my clients what I do is go with them through what they remember (or sometimes what they don't) and look for aspects that have been stored incorrectly. We talk about thoughts associated with those memories and try to examine them logically and correct thinking errors, and most importantly we try to remove the sensitivity to triggers that cause re-experiencing and anxiety. This looks different for everyone so we refer to it as "processing" their trauma or "reprocessing" their trauma or "making sense" of what has happened to them. Hopefully these words have more clarity in this context.
This process can also take months or years of periodically revisiting these issues and talking about the long term effects on their life. Someone can lose entire aspects of their life from triggers and that can be almost as traumatizing if not more so than the initial trauma. I have found that using bilateral stimulation helps people to "reprocess" events more quickly. What I feel would have taken 5 sessions can be accomplished in 1; though this is purely me guessing at numbers from experience not citing facts or sources. Though I can say that I and my organization use screening tools to track the level of symptoms people are experiencing and I have had people who've had little to no improvement after traditional reprocessing make major improvements when we added BLS. Also, I have done BLS myself in my own therapy and found relief from somatic symptoms regarding trauma that I've, in theory, fully processed in therapy before.
@@stephanieshaw7405 Thanks for the detailed response! My comment was from 3+years ago, and I've learned quite a lot in the intervening time. I still think the computer metaphor is more flawed than it is useful, since the computer processing something from memory is generally thought of as changing the data being processed, while not changing the computer itself.
When I did EMDR therapy they used hand buzzers because the light bar gave me headaches. Either way it brought up memories I hadn't thought about in a long time and helped me and the therapist connect some of the dots and work through it. When you better understand the trauma, why it happened, and what it did to you it can help SO much. EMDR did this for me and has been the only therapy to truly reduce my flashbacks. That being said, the way my therapist talked to me about it, it is something you want to do once you've hit your plateau in cognitive behavioral therapy because some of symptoms can get worse initially and you need to have the tools to work through it. I know remembering some of those events was extremely stressful to my mind and body, but like I said, the order the memories came in helped make the connections that help me to this day.
Ive been a practicing clinician for 20 years and just added EMDR to my methodologies over the last year.
I'm not sure how it works so well but it has improved the tx outcomes for my clients significantly.
Reminds me how SSRI discontinuation syndrome can cause brain zaps when shifting the eyes and/or head. Maybe it's something to do with serotonin?
flyindevil wow, good point
I have only gone to one session so far and my panick attacks, anxiety, and depersonalization are already starting to decrease alot I look at life alot more positively, I highly recommend it
It's possibly something you have to keep doing to "get better" at it. Keep doing it for a few weeks and it might be far more effective
Hiya, I'm starting this therapy. Would LOVE Scishow to update this video as it's quite old. :)
Perfect! Just when I started to have a bout of really awkward memories and callbacks.
Awesome presenter, great channel!
EMDR is freakin amazing. I thought it was bunk until I tried it. Funny thing is, you don’t have to believe it is going to work for it to work.
For me it didn't work. I even got back into that state I tried to lose with EMDR. Now on with actually watching the video, but I just wanted to say this first
I had this,it worked for me
In what sense did it work for you? Do you not have the bad memories come back? Or is it that the memories don't make you feel disturbed anymore?
I was skeptical, but it really is amazing how fast and well it works.
Walking through nature is calming.
Well, whenever I talk about touchy subjects with anyone, my eyes dart around like I'm looking for an escape route, so I can see how physically controlling the anxiousness by focusing on something and having repetitive slow eye movements might carry over emotionally.
No reason to crap on something if it works. The goal is to help people. Just means we have to study it more.
Have you done a video on Highly Sensitive People? I'm really intrigued in it and think it could be quite an interesting topic to have in a video.
EMDR changed my life a few years ago where I couldn't go out in public without having horrible panic attacks, now I can go grocery shopping and shop alone without having to have my mother with me. Even just thinking about EMDR makes me feel good now to be honest. I know some people won't be susceptible, just like some people don't benefit from therapy, it took around 10 sessions 1.5 - 2 hours each time. I'm not sure about price because mine was covered by insurance, but it can probably be easily googled if you're really interested.
It can also get really intense emotion wise, because you have to 'go' to that place of PTSD so PLEASE make sure it's done by a professional psychologist or therapist that was trained in EMDR :)
I'd done talk therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, etc. for over a decade for PTSD with little to no effect. Since I was desperate, I decided to try EMDR. I was extremely, extremely skeptical going into it, but after a few sessions I'd already noticed a big difference. Going into that office was one of the best decisions of my life. To anyone else who is struggling with PTSD and looking for options, I'd highly recommend taking a look into EMDR.
My therapist is using a combination of EMDR and CBT (cognitive behavior therapy) and , for me, it's done wonders. The memories are still there but with this combination, again, for me, the events no longer have control over me.
I'm going through EMDR therapy at the moment, and how it works seems to have more to do with the connection it makes between the two brain hemispheres. Lemme explain: the first session we tried it, I was incapable of concentrating on the memory AND follow her fingers with my eyes at the same time. I have problems with my working memory and executive function anyway (for reasons not yet diagnosed), so after a few tries, she suggested I close my eyes and she would tap my knees instead. I was a little suspicious at first, but even after just that first session (and we were FAR from finished) I later noticed that I wasn't stressing out in the car like I usually did. Even my boyfriend noticed. He kept repeating it, like he couldn't believe it. Now it's been 5 or 6 and I'm actually starting to drive short distances (though I'm waiting for us to trade our manual car for an automatic because executive function issues also make driving difficult etc.) So it *does* work, way better than anything else I've tried anyway. Though I guess the thought association process could also have something to do with it, though I'm sure how given that my previous therapies failed in that sense.
If you're gonna start with talking about "connections between the brain hemispheres", I have to point out that you haven't specified any reason this helps. Does it connect a region responsible for some aspect of emotional regulation? Increase the size of the amygdala? This isn't a reason. Therapy isn't something you can easily connect with neurological changes. It would need a lot of collaboration to demonstrate unique neurological changes with emdr compared with controls or other talking therapies which are related to processing of traumatic memories.
After a serious car accident I couldn't pull out of my driveway without having an anxiety attack. Until EMDR! Also, my therapist gave me an EMDR CD with bilateral sounds to use while studying. I went from a C student to an A student in 1/2 a semester!
I did EMDR with a therapist who specializes in it. Waved a pencil around. Didn’t really help.
Went to a different therapist who was a somatic experiencing specialist that also did EMDR. He didn’t do the eye version tho. Once he gave me a headset with left and right sounds. And most of the time he gave me two buzzers to hold. One in the left and one in the right hand that would buzz alternately. The buzzers worked the best for me.
EMDR helped me process negative self-beliefs rooted in my childhood which I had been trying to work through on my own for at least 10 years.
Even if it isn't better, having more than one method to tackle the problems can be really beneficial. A person that doesn't respond to one treatment, may have success using another.
Going through it right now. what I notice is that normally with those memories it's like you're experiencing again. With EMDR you are constantly put in the here and now. The therapist makes sure that you're not following a pattern with changing the movements or let you count backwards to overload the working memory even more. The more you do this the more you are able to distance yourself from that memory. It will always be painful, but the complex emotions attached to the memory dull. And it is less likely you will be surprised with that persistent unwanted recall. It may not work for everyone, I don't know. But at least I am happy that I don't have to live my life constantly on alert by the looks of it.
can you do an update on this? I'm sure a lot has changed over the years
that is a lil bit like meditation where you focus on your breath... but here your focussing on a finger, i did the same thing sometimes before i know it cuz i noticed that it consumes your whole concentration and hinder you focussing on bad stuff... like meditation also helps against the bad stuff ... just in a different, harder but... i guess more beneficial way
I suffered from the effects of PTSD for 6 years, and the various therapies they put me through only ended up making things far, far worse - I was so bad, I could barely function, and I couldn't look after myself. Then I pushed to have EMDR therapy, and after 8 months I felt well enough to function better. I'm nowhere near what I was before the PTSD, but at least I'm functional
I certainly believe there is a connection between memory and eye movement. I noticed back in high school that very often when my mind needs to dig for information my eyes roll up and to the side like I'm trying to look at the back left of my own head. Always to the left.
It's not 'all about' the eye movements, or the bilateral stimulation.
There is a lot more going on during EMDR treatment than a therapist moving a finger from side to side.
If the EMDR did not do what you wanted after some serious effort and some serious attempts, it's okay to consider working with a different therapist. Your new therapist would be happy for the opportunity; it's important that you give the new try its own legitimate chance.
Also: just generally don't give up! Your experience of life is worth whatever it takes in order for that experience to be a pleasant and fulfilling one!
I imagine the walking is equally important. It's not at all about distraction. It's about giving space for processing and acceptance.
I've been day REM'ing for years. It's not necessary for it to be a traumatic event. Intentionally triggering REM eye movement triggers your brains ability to change its wiring. While it happens every night on it's own, doing so yourself can dramatically increase your recall of things you are studying, or improve your ability to perform a task you are practicing just as readily as handling a traumatic event. It's similar to meditation if you do it right, but takes way less time.
I use EMDR quite offten for trauma and working with addictions (specifically the Feeling State protocol). It's amazing how effective it is!
Please do a video on brainspotting!
I literally want every shirt you wear on this show
I find that I tend to move my eyes back and forth whenever I'm trying to vividly visualize anything, particularly so if my eyes are closed or if I'm in a dark room.
Hey SciShow, can you do a video on the eye movements in NLP?
i've heard of a version where you also hum a song, which engages other parts of your brain... no clue if or why it works
I've actually gone through this type of therapy for my PTSD. Obviously this is anecdotal to the entirety of research, but it worked really well for me.
Also it wasn't just eye movement, there was also auditory and tactile parts too. But it all came back to the left/right movement or oreintation.
I’d be interested in a conversation about how this also works when dealing with general depression and anxiety. Because I feel like it could be an opportunity to examine the mechanism in another setting and potentially isolate what’s going on. Really though we honestly need more brain imaging when it comes to studies like this. It’s easy to forget the brain is an organ and we don’t use diagnostic tools enough in combination with psychology to get the full picture.
I’ve actually recently started EMDR therapy for some childhood trauma and I really hope it works...
Very interesting. Also love your shirt ❤
You got part of this video wrong. The therapy can involve tracking alternating visual stimuli, physical stimuli, and or auditory stimuli. I have had it, and it worked very well.
Great vid by the way
I'm surprised that they didn't mention anything about pros and cons of EMDR. From what they discussed in the video, it seems like EMDR is pretty low risk, with nearly no side effects. Is this actually the case? If so, there is something to be said for a treatment that does not have any negative impacts on a patient.
She left out the part that it can be extremely retraumatizing for us and actually end up making us much worse (yes, that happened to me). I have since read that for those of us with CPTSD (rather than just PTSD) EMDR is often recommended against for that reason.
There are other factors that make CPTSD complicated with EMDR but the retraumatizing effects is a huge one and it is negligent of her to have ignored it.
If you have PTSD from multiple unrelated occurrences do you have to do EMDR for each occurrence?
is there consensus on how anything works in psychology though
They should try using more recent studies to help answer some of the “mystery” questions from the video. Some of the sources used are outdated.
What can you guys say about brainspotting therapy? Is it effective?
Sounds like remembering with some sort of stimulant requiring the brain to absorb new information will help PTSD. Whether it's the mimicing of the eye movements associated with a new situation (the finger movement), or the re-introduction of the trama.
Great overview
My therapist doesn’t do the finger back and forth thing, she uses two vibrating buttons that I hold in each hands and they vibrate back and forth
I've done both and found EMDR to be a better fit for me. Being able to think over the memory while doing the eye movements was much less distressing than talking about it over and over and over again, maybe because doing the eye movements was a good distraction to keep me from feeling the whole force of my emotions.
How about Tapping? I don't see how it can help and don't know the exact scientific name for it. Any therapy that lessens PTSD issues is good. Thanks for sharing!
I move my eyes to the upper right when trying to remember things...
nothing to do with ptsd though.
Thats interesting too. I think I look down. Wonder why we move our eyes like that?
How about the research being done into PTSD treatment with MDMA and psychotherapy? Apparently its success has been phenomenal. It's talked about on the MAPS podcast.
EMDR can also be done with bilateral stimulation like touching one hand then the other, which could point toward the “bilateral processing” theory.
Could you make a Video about SPS and HSP?
Oh, I think this was mentioned in the anime Ghost hound
I don't buy it. Until they test moving eyes with a light against keeping your eyes still and having a moving light. This doesn't really test against the placebo effect.
HAD TRIED THIS WITHOUT KNOWING THIS THERAPY ON MY OWN, VERY LONG BACK, IT RELIVES NECK PAIN AND EASES DIGESTION, SO WE FEEL RELAXED, IN A WAY EVERYONE WILL HAVE TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE IN THIER LIFE.
REPROCESSING IS EMOTIONS LEAVING THE BODY
I tried it--IT WORKS!!
This therapy works! I recommend EMDR everyone who has ar least one traumatic memory
I recently started EMDR and its really weird but helps incredibly. I use the buzzers that go left and right in my hands, feels less hypnotic haha.
Worked for me, thank God.